Ethereum Cat Herders ECH, 29 Nov 2022

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From YouTube: EIP Editing Office Hour Meeting 7

Description

Agenda: https://github.com/ethereum-cat-herders/EIPIP/issues/194

A

Welcome to EAP editing office hours, 7.

A

um I have shared the link for the agenda in chat. We are joined by a few EAP authors today, uh Sam I have list of The Proposal number of request number.

A

um If you would like to start share your screen, the first PR is 6059.

B

All right, let's get this going.

B

B

Just got the chat open here there.

C

We are all right.

D

I'm saying that black screen am I, the only one.

A

Yeah we can see uh Sam's shared screen, okay,.

D

I'll I'll refresh all right.

B

Okay, so what is a nestable.

B

C

Think I've seen something similar.

B

To this one before um yes, let's.

C

D

There is a very related one which is which is 998, uh but we explain the differences perfect.

B

D

To ask you something: could you stop sharing in Russia again, I I know it might. It looks like the problem, but it's hard to be reviewed.

B

Without no no problem whatsoever, I know Zoom is um sketchy sometimes.

B

D

B

D

Not bad, that's, okay, I'll I'll be watching it in another screen. For now. Thanks for trying.

B

C

You um in the desktop app or are you in the browser.

B

Browser you could try the desktop application. It's a little bit more reliable.

D

Yeah we'll try.

B

B

C

I haven't actually read this.

B

One yet so just give me a few seconds here.

B

B

C

I'm still not sure if mermaid.

B

Actually renders properly um on or like with our.

C

B

C

B

C

It could also be a smart contract.

B

B

C

Talk is a token that is owned by another token.

B

The token can create both apparent child at the same.

C

E

That makes sense child tokens and given.

B

Tokens can be.

E

B

Managed by the tokens owner but can be proposed by anyone Okay so.

C

Okay: okay, okay, okay, okay,.

D

F

B

B

So um how gas efficient is it when you have like really deep nested nfts like if you have a like three child, three.

A

B

Deep or something does that end up like causing problems.

D

Sorry, let me make sure I'm here yeah, so uh it's actually not very different. uh I mean we. We have compared the cost of our operations against regular operations for ERC 721s and at most it's uh twice the the cost uh and but it doesn't affect when you're handling children. It doesn't affect. How many are there, because that that's why we use indexes no.

B

No uh like the depth, because so each child so like if you have like a chain of like one parent one child uh who has another child who has another child.

C

But they're all managed by.

E

The owner of the.

B

The very top nft right they're, not they- don't have their own owners so.

D

G

D

um Many operations are only um can only be done by the direct parent, which is an nft like transferring. So in that case, you you don't need to go much. You just go one level up, but for other operations we do need to get the root owner, so it depends yeah. If you have more like more nested levels, you would have to call more external contracts to get the actual root owner. Okay, so yeah there is a cost there, which increases. If there is many.

C

A lot of levels, but.

D

It's really not the unmanageable.

C

B

B

E

B

We broke six thousand I didn't even notice. Okay,.

C

E

E

C

B

C

So from a quick.

B

Read I'm gonna have to go through this again like to get a bit more technical on.

C

E

C

It looks really good I think you.

B

You know you didn't hit any of the common problems. A lot of people hit in their eips, um so I will probably go a little bit more in depth, but yeah. It looks, looks great so far.

D

B

Know that's great news yeah. We we.

D

Just recently sent the multi-asset ones, so we learned a lot from the experience.

B

B

Of this, instead of just setting the owner of an nft to a contract like, why would you want to do this? Instead of that.

D

uh Well, I, we put some of the use cases they're like uh bundling or membership delegation. Oh.

B

Right right, but like so so I think both can implement the same thing right. So you have a smart contract and the um so our contract owns the child out of T and allows the address that holds the parent nft to interact like.

A

D

C

D

Who has gone right, yeah.

A

That's seven.

A

Puja yeah I'm, probably uh screen sometimes Zoom gives up. So we should wait for a minute or so maybe he will try to rejoin foreign.

A

You are new here, do you have any PR number that you would like us to be reviewed while Sam is joining? Probably I can collect that and we can have it added.

A

Sorry, if we continue to use your talking.

B

Can you hear me.

A

B

No I do not. I just saw that this was open, so I figured I'd, sit in and listen.

A

Honor not a problem. Thank you for joining.

F

Wow sound, like is trying to reconnect I, think what he means is whether the author is my favorite alternative options to use the contract instead of pointing the ownership to another nft, and uh whether this uh consideration has been reflected in the rationale.

A

All right, thank you, Victor for jumping in yeah. That would be nice like uh Stephen. If you have any other questions or maybe have an answer for him, then.

D

Yes, I I was lost, I lost the screen, uh but yes, I. Think I also think that's why he's referring uh and well. The main thing is that, well it's not yet in the Russian alley. We will like it definitely, but the main thing is that, with this approach of having a contract just being the owner, it's limiting because it.

E

Would be just one.

D

Level, uh while with.

E

This nesting, you.

D

Can have as many levels as you want, or as long as gas is reasonable, uh so you can have. For instance, one of the samples we have is like you have a uh King, which is an NFD which owns a kingdom which is another nft, and this Kingdom may have different lands, which are also nfts, and this land may have soldiers which are also nfts and so on, so or also for gaming.

D

Like you, you have a an item which owns its uh armor and weapons and it's it's different to just having in a different contract uh because it like this relationship, is uh stated on chain directly uh and as a standard. It's something like any nft could be nested into any other nft as long as As It implements this interface. So it's not just for a custom use.

D

C

Guess I will have to tell that that's almost but.

D

A

While we are waiting I know, Victor is also a very active reviewer and is proposed for any IP editor in upcoming EAP meeting I would love to have your feedback or maybe thoughts if you have any for the next proposal, which is here which is 6051, uh Stephen um I would like to get back on proposal 6059 when Sam is back, but in the essence of time we can probably move on and get feedback for the next proposal, which is in the draft, if that's fine, sure.

F

Let me let me pull the the uh the link. Can you put the link into the chat room? Yes, I.

E

C

Against here it is.

A

I, don't see Sam online, so I'm assuming something went wrong with his internet or like that so yeah. Maybe we can continue with it Victor. uh Would it be possible for you to screen share.

H

A

H

F

Yeah yeah I can I can share. Let me use my uh let me jump to my computer to uh connect Ed.

A

Steven you did mention that the team has experience with another proposal, um maybe know the number again. Please.

D

Yeah, it's 57.73. It.

E

C

Just merged last week.

D

A

C

F

Okay, did you see my.

A

Yes, I can see your screen. Yes,.

F

For some reason, I'm hearing myself, foreign.

A

F

Well, uh let me quit my.

A

He also jumped.

F

Can you can you hear me.

A

F

A

You are now muted, Victor.

H

I can see the screen, but can I hear you.

F

C

F

Use my screen, I cannot I seems like I cannot connect all the only that's weird.

D

F

I mean this is weird.

A

I mean I can share clean if that's.

F

All along okay, okay, all righty, okay, finally yeah, so this EIP is proposing a private key in encapsulation they're, trying to encapsulate your a private key. uh What it does is uh encapsulate a pip, so we can locate in another application without providing the seat. Oh, let me see what is this proposing uh core algorithms.

F

And it has requests.

F

E

You proposing an.

F

Interface, or are you proposing uh how application works together, meaning like small Contra work together.

H

F

H

Interface of, for example, if you have a metamask on the browser as a browser extension, then maybe when you send a requests like this and then, if it minimizes suppose this it can be uh yeah, the function can be encoded.

F

Okay, so the first thing um I think I will ask about, is uh consider um using interface category um that is applying for uh for, for example, if you see the Json RPC um Are all uh categorized as interfaces there's four layers, the first layer will be the bottom layer being called core, which is consensus, plus uh the um execution, and then the second layer is uh Network, which is like how we spread the uh how we spread all the transactions and uh and then um like gossip Network, and then third layer is usually about I.

F

How um Json, rpcs and other other obviously calls are in.

G

F

And it seems like by just reading very briefly: I might be wrong. uh It looks like it's it's at least what light look like here is about proposing some new eth uh domain etas namespaced interface, so uh consider that first, uh that's what I would suggest and then second, uh let me let me see um so.

C

F

We doing uh is this an algorithm trying to do the private key exchange.

F

um The process.

H

uh It's a a tree uh yeah. There is a key agreement.

C

H

Then the private key is a nice change is simply encrypted so that the other party can decrease.

F

Okay, okay, um let me think about it: you're trying to increase a product key and then let the other side of it are decrypted.

C

F

Combines CEI is this a particular.

H

uh Yeah, that's a key exchange.

H

F

It's interesting, yeah, I I, see that's the uh abbreviation of that. Yeah I, like I I, know that it's very hard for us to uh put a link here uh I would generally hope.

F

My personal opinion is that things like that be at least spell out um because, like if people first time see it here, they might not know what you're referring to as a as a self and um what you're referring to and so spell out when you use a acronym uh when at the first time in in a text, would be a good idea and I yeah I will Advocate linking it externally, but our current editor or your policy doesn't allow us to link here. So if you have additional con yeah.

C

F

Have it I I guess you might have tried to link it. uh Let me see yeah anyway, so um but at least explain them and then put some relevant uh explanation in would be helpful.

C

A

Sam just tweeted that there is uh internet down.

C

B

Now, yeah, oh yeah. Okay, thank you. All right, no feel free to continue like absolutely fine, just watching for a bit.

F

Okay, yeah I'm, just uh hey Sam uh you, you are an FK for non-linking and then I just have this authors um putting in ecises uh and I'm I was hoping. This isn't a text that um having a link would be a good idea to kind of get more time contest. But for now, given our policy I'm suggesting the author to adding to to spell out the ecies for the first time and provide uh rather than explanation.

F

Yeah yeah, it's a that's an uh a debate. I am having with Sam right now, and so this is working on as a key change uh and.

C

F

Trying to understand what the key exchange component uh parties are you trying to um enable like uh what this? What what the security um model are you trying to kind of uh set up, for example, who is the um intended sender and intended um uh intended receiver, and then, who do you assume, have access to the communication channel? Do you assume the adversary will have access to the communication? Channel I think it's something that I will be looking for uh in The Next Step.

F

um So this is not going with the very standard of of encrypting, encapsulating private key, but.

H

Let me see if you're trying to invent something new here.

F

um You can encapsulate.

F

Authentic yeah.

C

H

Elements uh just a standard, mature, algorithm or particles like ecdh, hkdf or authentic energy, inclusion that that's a Asus GCM or something like.

F

Okay, yeah, and by the way this is the typo.

H

E

H

F

Yeah uh yeah because I'm trying to figure out what the Yen encryption is. Okay, now assuming you are able to.

F

Do the exchange it I wonder if there is any man in the middle attack ability here so.

H

Yeah there is music nature yeah. If you use uh look at number two.

F

Number two uh or are you, can you, can you tell.

H

My number 36 46 46, okay,.

F

A formal recipient key are base coins.

H

Yeah optionally I could be signed.

F

Why does signing help ensuring this the this? The confidentiality of the key here I'm trying to.

H

Understand uh confidentiality is achieved by increasing uh where I think uh when we talk about the random attacker, we are talking about. Oh discipline. Public key is to be tested another way so.

F

I see yeah basic means. The the receiver has signed off the uh have authenticated uh the response right.

F

Okay, all right, so this is key exchange um now you're, defining a key exchange and then now there's uh the network communication process. You define this uh request with the method with the version with this assigner private key.

H

F

Public key, okay, um reasonable, must Generate random query private.

F

Let me see what the response did. You uh specify I think at this at this section uh it is ideal that you also specify the format of the response. This is the input or parameter right. um Yeah you mentioned the return value is R. This is um this. This is mathematic representation, and this section and I think you start entering the process of describing what the interface looked like so I would suggest uh also put in uh such as putting in the interface uh the response format right. All right does it does that make sense.

H

F

um And for things like version and the sign and then and public key, this is a public key right. Are you looking for the.

C

General standard.

F

Ecdsa public key, which, and then oh yeah I- think you would need to for this is an editorial question for you. um The technical choice you make is that you have. um Is this an example, or is this the the selection? um Wait, that's a Shard, so basically the question I have for you is.

F

um You should specify the. Let me see if you already did the length of the of of of of the of the key the length of the length of the version and, of course, the length of the of the public key is relevant to the particular EC. uh The.

C

F

uh The the space uh that you.

H

Pick yeah: this is specify the later. In the cervical version.

H

Yeah, we have a yeah, the version.

C

H

Is the electric curve and we have two options and then the authenticated equation? We have three options.

F

Okay, got it wow, I just realized. This is a very lengthy, uh detailed.

H

F

H

Maybe we should move a little bit earlier.

F

H

No worries I'm going.

F

To give some general feedback, this is a very long one. We probably need to also take some more time.

B

C

F

Or after but uh yeah this is great I'll specify the length of version and uh and.

F

uh Okay and then.

H

What do you mean Lance version, uh if it's just as a string.

F

uh Yeah so let's say if your.

E

F

um When you communicate that there is going to be a version stream, you either say that uh okay, our string is several bytes right. Our version is represented by a number which is the provides, and then we are here going to use a hack string or any a mathematical representation.

F

um Yeah, basically just communicate the data type um data type and size. How about that.

F

F

Er can understand what you're referring to like if it's a string, I'm assuming in our use case, is usually because it's a hack string representing some byte's number.

F

Oh yeah, then, if so you're using how many they.

C

Would if they'll differ from.

F

Buy each one right: okay, yeah, because you'll want to make it flexible to allow different encapsulation.

H

F

Yeah uh I think it's worthy of mentioning that you either specify here what is allowable or mentioned. It will be synthesized in which, following sections like, for example, you all have a dedicated section for version for all the versions that's considered today and then in that table. What each kind of uh um will look like. How does that is that? um Does that make sense.

H

Yeah I think I will uh point of view upon.

E

The readers to the latest session.

H

Because then, there's specified.

E

H

The stack right.

F

Right, that's great yeah! Let me just put it here: um cool uh information must generate as a security uh sender, R2 send request for sender to encapsulate the private key um request to Sender, and usually these requests are uh I'm. Trying to imagine like who is like in in real use case. Can you explain to me uh help me understand in real use cases who are your intended sender uh and who are intended receiver in a typical use case? United are targeted major targeted use cases.

H

Yeah uh sender is a maybe like a hardware wallet, and then you have a c. uh Then you can derive many private keys and addresses and.

C

The recipient, uh the receiver, it.

H

Could be, it could be a Messenger application or some hot wallet so, and you can extract one of the your private key from your Hardware wallet to your hot wallet so that it is more convenient. uh That's one of the cases.

F

H

F

That's helpful, um actually yeah that helps a lot I think describing them uh in the motivation could be helpful. Oh yeah, you did cool yeah. That.

C

F

A lot on putting in the context uh where is oval B being mentioned, I'll, be oh, this is the hologram.

C

F

Yeah I would see it's.

H

A mentioned earlier, yeah.

F

H

Algorithm part out.

F

Of bounds out about data.

F

C

F

C

F

Probably uh um put more time into reading this, the the I'm kind of revealed well, one third of it I'm probably put more time into uh the other thing, but uh in in a sense in, for the sake of time, I guess I'll pause here and then see what uh Sam thinks and what poetry things should we continue reviewing this particular EIP? Should we give it back to Sam or uh what should we do uh here? What what's your preference.

C

B

H

B

All right so do we have uh authors for other eip's here or.

A

Yeah they do have for one more five, eight five one.

C

F

G

F

Want to like take it back.

B

uh Sure I think um this.

A

B

Long I think it'd be best if we switch to.

C

A different one just to get some variety and then uh yeah.

B

Everyone's okay with that.

D

Yes- and there was a pending question, uh you were asking so and if you want that answer now or we can add it to the rationale later and you just review.

B

It and we can do it offline, um okay,.

C

I'll just ask you.

B

Again on your discussion thread: okay.

A

So the number is number five. One I have shared link here in the chat.

E

B

We go okay yeah, so this one has.

E

A panda pip review.

B

Has a lot of panda paper review all right.

B

Good fish for signing validating identities, using zero knowledge, proofs, okay,.

E

Let's verified.

E

B

C

B

Case for selling value is.

C

The episode versus the interface for kyc.

B

Validation of entities so.

B

Okay, we'll see verification. It is using decentralization amplifiers DOD with abstract contributions.

B

To a sanitary certificate such as solvent tokens.

C

B

B

Please friend, using the centralized identifiers, we can abstract answering conditions.

B

Okay, so I feel like the abstract's a little too uh light on details here, I.

E

B

Like I get a sense for um what's your knowledge brings to the table for this um I, don't think it goes into enough detail about who'd, be assigning these. These um certificates and who'd be verifying them. So a little bit more information about like.

G

So um we had um explained it afterwards with the diagram and workflow, but that has we have to also give um brief detail in abstract. Is that the case.

B

Yeah yeah, exactly yeah, exactly like I want to be able to read the abstract and kind of know. What's going on.

C

B

The service of the challenges.

E

Not being addressed by their standards.

B

By defining the optimal functional interfaces that defines the identity with something weird with that sentence, what's going on? Okay, so that's your results. Calendar is not being addressed by other standards by defining the optimal functional interfaces that defines the identity issue should probably be that allows the identity issuer to validate the web. 2 base yeah.

G

He basically um create an attestation, so um I wanted to basically summarize here that the way to create an attestation which is um of a web tool based verification on web3, on on-chain verification so and.

E

C

B

C

Yeah I was just trying.

B

To figure out, like this word I think, is just the wrong word: choice um and.

E

I think it makes sense.

B

E

On, like I I, think I kind of get.

A

The idea of what.

B

The the EIP is um yeah scissors.

B

B

So, do you need 5192 style cell bound tokens for this to work or are they off like? Is it just you mentioning them here for for interest sake, for.

G

uh Reference purposes yes,.

B

B

C

B

B

51.92 is probably oh, it's okay, so never mind.

B

B

A new customer standard.

B

Plural or the sentimental Bible conditions that Financial Services providers satisfied.

C

Or access services.

B

um So in my three.

B

B

B

um Energy represent yourself.

B

B

B

Function to validated the Azure sphere finds the holder of the SVG defined by the token SP, okay, and then we want to go back to.

B

Where did that go so then tokens 51.92.

B

G

So this is yeah. This.

C

Is an extension of 721, it's.

B

Already has owner of and then.

G

We refer it under the SBT ID as.

E

G

Which is uh been um instantiated by the standard they will map to this ID with this uh um spt token, so.

C

B

Run that by me again, so what is different from is verified and owner of.

G

uh So it's verified is just um modify a function that has to be called by any and to verify whether the holder of this SVT. So if someone wants to use the services, so this function will validate that um the address which holds this uh um SVT with this token ID so.

E

In order to validate is.

G

B

Okay, so I'm still not entirely sure. So so is the SBT issue to people who aren't verified.

G

No, it's issued uh to the people who are verified, who are um given identity by the administrator and then um the other. Let's say service who wants to use this identity as verification they will um do? uh They will create a modifier on the functions. Let's say, I want to access to the liquidity pool in uni, swap so um add liquidity pool this function will have this modifier function, which will check whether the caller of this function. uh The address of this function. Has this token ID or not token,.

C

Or not, basically, is.

E

G

Actual owner of this nft or nokius- so it's it's very so the owner of um it's it's um yeah I mean there are two different thumbs. It just gives a Boolean result.

B

C

B

So you're saying: um do you have the identity provider.

E

Gives an SBT token to me: let's say right and then I want to access your service, which.

B

Is like a unicorn pool? Is that kind of the thing you're saying and then, if you get to choose whether the holder of the token that I have is allowed to access your pool or.

G

E

C

C

C

B

B

B

B

Requirements are actually like stored on chain.

G

B

But they aren't executed on chain.

G

uh No, they will be just referred um on Chain by the um the integrators of this kyc.

E

G

So they can uh from their side Define, off-chain or yipfs that these These are the data they want to verify, and then they will compare it with the requirement structure which is presented on chain. But.

B

um You did just say: ipfs right, sorry did.

G

You just say like it'd, be on ipfs or yeah. It can be on ipfs for optimizing. The storage, so I will mention that okay.

B

Because, like if you're doing.

G

It the same way as like.

B

um 721 metadata that might be useful, or it's just like a URI to the requirements um and then that URI could be a um like ipfs link or or something like that. Just because.

H

It seems like a lot of information to store on chain for something.

G

That's not going to be used on chain, I'm, not sure yeah yeah sure I will mention that.

C

C

B

So what does this your knowledge stuff actually come into this.

G

um Sorry, where.

B

Does the um zero knowledge like Proof come into this, or is that verified on change? Is that verified off chain? How does that work so.

G

um Based upon that type of protocol, if it we need initial um creation of um the shared roof string, we will have to use that so it's agnostic to um it can be ZK Stark. It can be any other category of protocol, so um we are not uh special for, for example, we have used uh Merkel roots to.

G

um We will store the Merkel root by creating the hashes of the your personal ident, personal information. Let's say address and other details, and then once um you have to prove, is you just have in the metadata? Only the hashes of the um of the certain leaves, and then um it will recompute whether this information on chain will give the same rule Merkel root as initialized by the administrator.

G

B

So so how does.

E

B

With the contract on chain.

E

So, where, where do.

B

You actually store the information that you need for the ZK proofs and everything.

G

um It will be stored on the um requirement structure, all the proofs uh beliefs that you want to verify, and then um there will be a mapping uh corresponding to the each address and corresponding to wire threads. Multiple root is of is all identity, data and user data. So we just use the let's say same mechanism that is used for white listing on chain.

B

Okay, I'm, probably gonna, have to give this like a couple more reads, sir I'm not um super familiar with the ZK stuff um and I think we're almost out of time today. But I'll add this to my list of things to to pay attention to and I'll get back to you with the rest of my feedback.

C

um Maybe I can add a comments.

E

uh I mean we we basically like um for for any ID property. We just uh slice them into different um attributes. So all these ID attributes are kind of are fragmented and all this value will be on the Boolean value. So it's basically provide a certificate to to attest to this person. Behold a ID he's like over 18 or 21 he's in this section, digital nodes, and all these um will be totally uh with all of my uh offline encryption fires and according to the Drupal race plan, uh with the metadata.

G

E

E

I'm not sure if I I made this community.

G

Yeah, so um you are just you rephrase that.

E

The process that.

G

Basically, we follow yeah to generate this um uh um credentials. Okay,.

B

um So yes, I I, think I think my concern here just just to kind.

G

Of clear this up a little bit, I think a.

E

B

This information is probably going to be in your reference implementation, um and you know it's probably just that I'm not reading. That's in.

E

Depth enough so.

G

Like I said, I'll give it another read and.

B

Then I'll get back to you.

G

Sure so, uh for the drafts uh we need to, um let's say, um brush up all the um feedback that you have given now, um apart from grammatical and other issues and then also kind of go in much more details about um the how we store the requirement structure and also what it how it refers to the zero knowledge groups.

B

um Store it probably isn't like if you're pointing to a URL I mean that would probably be what.

E

I would suggest, but if you're going to start on chain like.

B

Eight, let's get better.

E

B

This is like the EIP should only expose the interface it shouldn't ex, like it shouldn't specify the implementation details so um yeah just just be careful not to get two in the Weeds about how your particular implementation does it, um but yeah yeah.

E

B

Think, that's that's good so far and, like I said I'll get back to you with some more feedback on it.

E

Sounds good thanks.

A

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you Sam! Thank you! Victor uh Sam Victor. If you guys get time, there are three proposals for moving into final status. So if that can be looked Offline that would be nice to have and yeah see you all in two weeks. Thank you. Everyone for joining us today.

E

Thanks everyone.