Ethereum Foundation DevCon 6 - Cryptoeconomics Track, 14 Oct 2022

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Block building after the Merge by Alex Stokes | Devcon Bogotá

Description

Visit the https://archive.devcon.org/ to gain access to the entire library of Devcon talks with the ease of filtering, playlists, personalized suggestions, decentralized access on Swarm, IPFS and more.
https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/6/block-building-after-the-merge/

We are seeing the emergence of a specialized role on the Ethereum network dedicated to assembling the contents of each block as the ecosystem grows and the impact of "maximum extractable value" (MEV) becomes clear. This talk investigates block building after the Merge and what considerations the move to proof-of-stake brings to the process along with what norms we should strive for to avoid dangerous centralization pressures while maximizing validator profits.

Speaker(s): Alex Stokes
Skill level: Intermediate
Track: Cryptoeconomics
Keywords: mev,proposer-builder separation,block building

Follow us: https://twitter.com/efdevcon, https://twitter.com/ethereum
Learn more about devcon: https://www.devcon.org/
Learn more about ethereum: https://ethereum.org/

Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers.
Devcon 6 was held in Bogotá, Colombia on Oct 11 - 14, 2022.
Devcon is organized and presented by the Ethereum Foundation, with the support of our sponsors. To find out more, please visit https://ethereum.foundation/

A

B

Great uh hey everyone good afternoon, uh I'm Alex, Stokes, a researcher at the ethereum foundation and yeah. You know the title here says: block building up for the merge, there's like a subtitle, which is Mev mov moving forward uh you'll, see in a bit I have another kind of variant of this talk that looks at more I'd say, like the technical side of things and I hope today, to kind of communicate uh like a sense of the landscape around this topic and like Mev is like the obvious.

B

uh You know uh Buzz phrase here um but yeah. So, let's, let's dig into what that means, and hopefully, by the end, you'll have a sense of again yeah like the landscape and uh what some of the concerns might be moving forward. So I've kind of always said that putting currency into crypto like cryptocurrency, is like this double-edged sword because, like yes, you know, there's like uh this like speculative aspect.

B

That draws a lot of attention: a lot of talent, a lot of capital to the space and that's great, uh but in the same you know sort of in the same breath. That also means that we're kind of directly programming with incentives here we have this sandbox, for you know playing with these different crypto economic games and uh I guess, hopefully, you'll see as we move forward that uh you know this could perhaps backfire.

B

It could be the case that short-term incentives that are supported by protocols like ethereum are perhaps too great for us to uh sort of resist and in the context here uh this is an important point. I say: secure, block space will be a premier commodity of this century.

B

So maybe that's like a bit of a forward-looking projection, and maybe you don't quite buy it. That seems to be to me the direction things are going. I called secure here out in italics, because some people say, oh, you know you could just make a new L1, there's like as much block space as you need, but I will claim that you know there's different qualities of block space. Some is much more secure than others.

B

So we have this thing and if there's this thing called block space- and it is actually so important- it's going to be very valuable and because it's so valuable, we should expect battles for control over block space.

B

So uh this is like, if anything, the takeaway points I'll just get it out of the way um and when I say this, I want you to think about, like you know, influences both inside the community and outside the community. There's going to be all sorts of people who are going to want to like try to attempt to co-opt ethereum- um and you know that can happen in very overt ways. It can also happen in a very sort of uh subtle ways.

B

So just keep this in mind, I think when we think about any of this stuff around the protocol. What it looks like how the protocol changes things around the protocol like Mev and like a whole separate talk in this event, is like staking pools, but when you think about this stuff, just uh have an adversarial mindset and just yeah be be careful out there. Okay, so I use this word block space. Maybe some of you have never heard of it, so what I really mean is just the stuff that goes into the blockchain.

B

So today that's like transactions, if you ever used ethereum or like metamask you've done this. You like have this transaction, and uh maybe you sign it. Maybe there's some error, maybe there's not enough gas. Maybe you didn't pay enough for the gas like a lot of things that happen, um but you're probably familiar with this notion of a transaction, and so you know in the very sort of naive model.

B

We have a bunch of transactions that get packed into blocks and these blocks go on chain, so to speak, which means they're like accepted as canonical or you know, part of the consensus, and then somehow this like moves the state of things forward. I uh have this like sort of elusive comment to say tomorrow, you'll see in a bit that this notion of Builders I'm, going to sort of present today unlocks a lot of sort of abstraction and flexibility around how we use the protocol and how we like access his resources and uh yeah.

B

So maybe in the future it looks a lot more General than just like the transaction you get the metamask, but so concretely like transactions are, you know like the takeaway here is that transactions are a way to interface with the protocol's resources and like what we really mean when you say that is like the state like the fact that ethereum is organized as a blockchain today is like kind of a detail.

B

It's like an engineering detail almost like the important thing that we all care about is the fact that there's this, like shared Global state, um for example, the account balance is everyone in the protocol, the state of smart contracts of uniswap of Ave maker, and you know everything else.

B

There's there's a lot these days and the state is like the the thing that you know is sort of the actual valuable thing any block space to access the state, and this is what everyone you know, I claim will be uh will be battling for control over, and it turns out that you know, because block space at least on ethereum is so valuable. You know it supports this ability to specialize.

B

So what I mean when I say specialize? Is that we're seeing the emergence of this this role within the protocol uh called a builder and um yeah? It's just this entity that says okay like rather than just like, run a very naive algorithm for like getting these transactions into the book, which then goes on chain. You can do like far more sophisticated things and, if you're familiar with any of this Mev stuff, this is like one example um and yeah. It's like I really do. Think kind of this.

B

Guy is the limit in terms of like the Ingenuity people are bringing to to doing this task, and the takeaway here is that you know Builders specialize in refining block space. So a hopeful analogy that I've come across is like thinking of you know. We have like uh actually I, think this yeah, so Alpha and algae here is like and Alex lead to like mining, some some resource like say, copper ore. You have copper ore, you can like dig it out of the ground.

B

You just have this like thing you have to like get the Copper from The Rock and this whole process of extraction to get to say, like refined, copper, this copper bar in the middle here and then that can be further refined and, to uh you know, say: copper, coins or pick your thing.

B

So this is just like a generic notion of like taking some raw asset, some raw commodity and refining it through like a series of of phases and each phase, it's sort of like, is more valuable in the face before it's like, for example, if I just like, walked up to you and gave you like a hunk of copper ore, you'd be like okay, cool but I, don't really care whereas like if I walked up and you know, hit a bunch of coins, you might care a lot more.

B

So this is what I mean when I say that uh you know there's this sort of raw asset or this raw commodity is probably the right term uh block space and again what we're seeing is. Is this this notion of a builder in the protocol, or at least you know around the protocol that takes block space and sort of provides these like value-added services or almost Goods? You can think of them as to go from a less viable thing to like a more valuable thing and that's the job of the Builder.

B

So now the question is well: okay, yeah. What are some examples of things they can do and there's actually a lot. So uh here's like a list of things, there's a long list of things again. This is where I think all the Ingenuity and creativity will come in that I think is really exciting around this space and I'll just run through some of these examples here right so like one of them is like sponsored transactions.

B

This is something people have wanted for like a very very long time, and the idea is that, basically, you have this Builder and they pay for the gas so kind of concretely. What that looks like is you know: I have my transaction rather than making like a direct ethereum transaction I make some intent some message something the Builder knows how to like interpret in their own way. They still have the same effect on chain, but then they can be responsible for paying the gas and like end protocol. Another thing they could do instant confirmations.

B

So this is again something if you've, like you know, going back to our metamask example. You might have seen where you send a transaction and or you have to sit and wait, and it's like is it on chain yeah like what's going on like sometimes especially when there's like volatility and like the gas market and things like it's, it can be very unclear what's happening, you can like end up waiting a very long time and that's not fun, but uh there's this almost service or abstraction a builder can provide, which is just to say.

B

Okay, um you want this Con, this transaction to be in in this block and I can basically, as a builder, say, I promise you. This will happen, trust me and there's a whole design space around. You know changing what trust me means, but basically, I can I can give you those promises, a builder to get into that block, and in that sense then I can turn around immediately. Say yes, you're in the block uh related thing, cancellations, retries.

B

So the notion here is just saying, like um yeah, let's say: I make a transaction and I'm like oh wait like the market, just moved against my unit, swap trade I'd, rather just take it back if you're just sort of sending raw ethereum transactions. Today, that's really hard to do because you like gossip them through this Global event, pool and you'd have to like Yeah It's Tricky one way, people kind of game this today is they will send a duplicate transaction or one that will override the previous one. That has different effects.

B

But again that's like inefficient, and you can imagine, there's like this layer around the protocol that handles this for you and like in the same bucket. There's like retries so like, let's say, I want to like I, don't know, do a token transfer and for some reason it fails just because of like conditions on chain. So then I want to keep doing this.

B

You know until it goes through and rather than me have to sit, and do this, like a builder, could do it for me next one gas Futures, so here the way to think about it is that a rather than someone you sort of like block space right now, as a builder I could sell you block space in the future. It's a pretty cool idea and one you know. One reason you might want to do.

B

This is because you know, as part of this like contract that we enter into you're, also selling me at a certain price. So, even if, like the the gas marker, moves against me, I still locked in a price, that's nice to me and Builders could do this. I mean there's other ways to do this on chain, with like looking at the base fee and stuff, but yeah. So, just to give you a flavor again of what Builders could do uh sell Futures around block space. uh This was an idea I heard from hasu.

B

You could basically also sell block space in the past, and uh I won't go into too much detail here, because basically, what this means is like selling reworks, which is uh probably something we shouldn't dig into too much.

B

uh There's like some I'd say moral hazards around it, but the Symmetry between selling block space and the future in the past is like I, think too nice to pass up another one is just like this whole bucket of account abstraction you might have heard of vip4337 and basically again, it's just this way to like add more flexibility around the core protocol, so that uh people have more again flexibility and and how they used it, how they use it.

B

um A simple thing would just be like a different signature scheme than ecdsa, and then this last bucket, Mev I'm sure you guys have heard about this a ton this week, and you know, if you think, about extraction as like the service, a builder could add or well there's a couple different things, but if you think of extraction, then there's like this whole bucket of you know.

B

We can kind of just shove Mev into this whole notion of like a builder uh providing the service to to users, whether it's Searchers or someone else, and so then I have a few examples within you know, sort of that Subspace, uh maybe extraction, which is what you usually think of when like a search is joining some ARB, it may be smoothing. The notion here is basically you know. Media is very spiky, and so, instead, what we could imagine is somehow capturing it within the protocol and smoothing it out over time.

B

Then it's paid out uh to builders to proposers. However, that looks um that'd be pretty cool and you know you could imagine off-chain constructions that do this. That Builders offer the last one is like.

B

Maybe protection or rebates- and the notion here is like um Builders kind of would have this direct pipeline to the protocol and they could say, hey I promise to keep your transaction private, so it can be, for example, front run so there's a lot they can do is is the point and again there's there's a bunch more uh there's, okay and then like even looking at a little a little further forward. I'll just touch on this, so these are like you know this.

B

This list here, I think, is like pretty concrete things you could do today and I do think. This is painting a picture of this Builder as this like generalization that we'll continue to see in the protocol.

B

um For example, you could have rather than transaction level 1559, you could do the Block Level. So today, when you like, send a transaction you basically have to like have some amount of heat that you burn, but if you think about it, the economics are the same if the builder of the buck burns the same amount of beef across all transactions at the end and the reason you want this is because again there's like better ux for users. They don't necessarily need to have Youth and um yeah again.

B

This is the generalization of like the protocol providing resources and then the user consuming them, and then a similar thing is Roll-Ups, consuming Bobs and 4844.

B

So you might not know about the CIP, but basically the idea is we're going to add a bunch of like data space to the protocol for users like Roll-Ups and again, it's like. We don't want roll up stuff to necessarily like sit and like manage Bobs and figure out when they get on chain and things like this, um and so you can imagine, there's a builder some sort of abstraction, like a builder that manages getting blobs from blow ups or from sequencers of these Roll-Ups onto the chain.

B

uh Here's another talk, I'll just quickly point out where uh the one I mentioned previously, where I went into a lot more of these use cases in depth. You could welcome to check it out. So this sounds cool.

B

You know, I am claiming there's this Builder thing and it gives you all this functionality and that's great, uh but what's the catch I mean there's, probably a catch, and the catch is that the specialization actually implies validator centralization, and this is bad because it kind of harms like the whole health of ethereum, like the reason we care about ethereum is because of this decentralization of of the consensus right of the protocol and uh Builder specialization harms this directly. So let's look at why- and why is that you know this.

B

This process has economies of scale so right now, the like Builder protocol or sorry. The Builder role in the protocol is tied to the valiator role, and because of that, you could have builders that do their things. You'll have entities that sort of have validators they partner with to do their thing as Builders and what happens then is like better Builders have better profits, and this makes us flywheel where they have better profits. They can get better building, they can scale up their validation operation and you just get this like again flywheel.

B

That goes until suddenly, like you have these like really huge actors in The protocol.

B

So again, if you're like the best builder, that's great for you, uh but if this you know goes unchecked, then it's actually really bad for the protocol in the long run, because now you have this like very fragilizing thing of this, like one huge actor, that's like easier to say, attack and all sorts of things. So, just like a note, you know Mev kind of directly accelerates this problem, uh which is probably why we've been hearing so much about it this week. So, okay, what can we do?

B

um There's a couple things, one of them proposer, Builder separation, uh Barnaby, gave a talk about this yesterday. I believe and I mean the idea that I think is pretty straightforward. Just from the name, you I mentioned that this Builder role and sort of the proposer about air roll. The thing that actually is like minting the block on chain this thing these are tied together, so instead we can just separate them, and uh this sounds great.

B

The question, though, is like how exactly you do it, and once you start looking into this in some depth, there's a bunch of like subtleties and like open questions that have a lot of nuance that, like still need to be worked through. So, for example, um I think like the leading designer now is from vitalik, where basically, we have two slots, alternating proposer and Builder, and the point here is that you want to have the proposal to do a thing in a different context: have the Builder do their thing and it sort of firewalls?

B

You know these two, these two entities from each other and that's great, but then you have to make sure that it's in significant capacity incentive compatible like you, don't want a proposer to like release their block too late after they've accepted a builder's bid and then because of that, the Builder doesn't have time to like uh you know, reveal their block and it quickly gets to a lot of uh tricky situations like that.

B

Another one is like actually deciding the mechanism, the mechanism of sort of selling the block space that a validator may wish to do. uh The default thing we do is like just enshrine an auction, um but then the question is like: okay is that is that what we want? Do we want this thing where it's like I'm, going to auction Off, My Block space to the highest bidder, there's like a bunch of different ways to think about.

B

This I will call out again Barnabas very recent post on each research on Boeing PBS and he talks about kind of uh maybe pulling the auction bit out and just having sort of this notion of like a commitment Market, where the commitment then is like quite General. Another point, then, is like yeah just the Integrity of this thing, because kind of like I alluded to there's, there's many actors now and they all have different incentives and you need to like line them in the right way.

B

uh If you don't do this properly, then well, yeah, if you don't do this properly, then you can imagine like people just not using it. So one way you could fix that is you have a testers go and also test the chain. You know, if there's this two slot process alternating, you can have the testers to test what they see and in that way they strengthen again the mechanism.

B

But then it's like okay, maybe they could be bribed like who knows so point being there's a lot of open research questions there? Oh no, my emoji didn't show up anyway.

B

um It turns out that that's not the only problem, so even if we had a great PBS solution, I think, like I, think the way to think about it is like you, firewall off all this Mev, all this builder stuff from the batter set. So they don't have these pressures to centralize that's great, but then you kind of Kick, the cane down the road and there's another problem. Where again you I mean yeah. You really just get the kid down the road uh to the builders, because now the builders themselves could centralize.

B

So we don't want to get to a world where you know. There's like a few actors, uh let's say like very sophisticated actors from tradfy who are here, and uh you know, sort of gatekeeping access to the protocol like again it'll be a way for them to uh again violate ethereum's values, and that would be very bad, so I think it's even less clear how to handle this.

B

Just because, like the scope of the problem, is so big, if you thought there's like incentive issues with the previous sort of like proposal or Builder citing there's now like it's I would say even like less constrained, so that's fun and okay. Let's, let's think about this, for a second like how do we? How do we fix this?

B

um One option is just to say: okay, we will have like very centralized Builders, but we just want to make sure they can compete, and the idea is that, if there's like very healthy competition, then there won't be one internship player and that avoids the situation where there's like there's very direct gatekeeping, where I have to go through like one or two entities to get on chain.

B

So to do that, we want to keep the barriers to entry of building very low um and yeah. Maybe that's enough we'll find out, but still you know, I think. If you look around the world, you see there's like power laws everywhere and so I think. We'll still be, you know, even if we do have a healthy ecosystem, it could be the case that there's like not a great distribution.

B

So we can ask well what next well pretty much most of us here. We can call ourselves crypto economists, so we'll design a mechanism, and what does that mean? Well, we'll just read off this quote that I made up. What does it mean to design a mechanism here? Well, we want a peer-to-peer network with proper incentive alignment to ensure safety aliveness of the protocol. And now what does the protocol do? Well, it facilitates the refinement of block space and this way I was describing um so that's great, but there's some like huge caveats.

B

The huge caveats are we want to make sure that I think there's many but like two ones to call out right are that the people who are using this thing, like let's say, users who want to like make some trade on uniswap. We want to make sure that you know when I make a transaction and, for example, it has some mov, then like I've, actually generated value that wasn't there before and it seems you know, I think we'd all kind of agree.

B

It makes sense that the generator of that value should capture most of the value. So that's like a pretty big constraint on how something like this block space refinement, decentralized protocol would look like another big one: censorship resistance if you've been following any of them at Boost stuff, which I'll touch on in just a second.

B

uh You see that this is like a very critical question, because again, when you have just a few sort of I mean yeah centralized pipelines in the protocol, uh it becomes much easier first, internship to censorship, resistance to Fall by the wayside, so I'm just going to keep going down I kind of want to just like sketch this path. For you, hopefully to jog some of your maybe like capture some of your interests or uh you know jagu creative juices, but essentially what would the centralized Building look? Like um I mentioned this FPC conference vitalik.

B

You have a talk uh on this a bit, so I'd also recommend that one so um but yeah so for today the you know the ways I've kind of been thinking about lately are you have a builder and you want them to basically well yeah, so there's different contexts.

B

The first context would be in a single domain and I'll kind of make that clear in a second, but essentially you have a builder just imagine a builder on one chain and rather than this Builder being like one server somewhere, you can imagine it being split across many servers, sort of implementation, wise um but anyway, so that's actually not what we really care about, like we care about higher level properties like um we want this builder, then to be able to again be like multiple, maybe competing entities, and so what that could look like is you have agents who are doing the building and they're now competing for like order flow, for example?

B

So if this is like an Mev context, you have people who are making trades and I'm now like working or perhaps competing with other Searchers, let's say to to build the best block, but we're doing in a way that again we sort of enforce this competition.

B

There I think the more you think about this there's like a trade-off between privacy and execution, because you know one thing we could say is as a user again of my Dex trade, for example, uh you know nothing and then it's just like uh grabbing random batches of transactions and like putting them into a box. Instead, you could like kind of be in the setting today, where you see everything, and then you have sort of full uh full information to even leverage against me and when people are front running they're upset about that.

B

This is this is exactly the tension they're getting towards um if you're familiar with Cal swap so like one idea here is like the the Builder on a single domain context. Is you have you know, imagine doing your dap, your your D5 app, but inside some APC circuit um Cal swap. Has this thing for basically settling trades off chain before they land on Chain, by just doing uh just the diffs, or just like the remainder, so this could be a cool research Direction another one, there's this uh dap I, guess maybe application.

B

Sorry, maybe protocol, but either way it's called Rook used to be called uh keeper, die, I, think and either way uh at a very high level how that works is that they have like a trusted set of Searchers who have access to a private pool and because they're trusted you know we trust them to then uh search and extracted, maybe, but do it in a way that for the value extracted most of it flows back to the users of Rook? So what this looks like is you have trades where you're paid to make the trade?

B

um You can do something like this, and the question then, is like: how can we tune this, like trust Spectrum, uh so that we minimize trust while giving us all the nice properties we want? Another cool thing now is like you know, there's not just ethereum.

B

There are other blockchains, and so now we can think about me being like across domain context, and this one quickly gets pretty hairy because, like when you think about it, you kind of now like, if we're going to do this decentralized building thing across chains, then you now need to like I mean yeah. It's not even really clear how you do it like. You could imagine like uh some crypto economic layer, whatever that looks like maybe like a network of State channels. uh Maybe it could look like um yeah I, don't know again.

B

This is where it's an open question, but there there's a lot of things you could do um and yeah so I think we'll see a lot of exciting research come out of this area uh in the future, so yeah I think I've just tried to like lay on a lot of problems, and maybe this seems like pretty hectic. That's not good, um but yeah like I.

B

Do think this this these questions around like the Builder and like how the protocol is used moving forward or like some of the biggest that we face as a community, so I do want to call them out and um yeah. Just just be aware that uh there's a lot for any issues here. So hopefully you uh are motivated to work on fixing them and yeah like I'd like to like and done a good note like we did the merge you might have heard of that one, and you know there's really. This is like an existence.

B

Proof that, like progress, is possible, like uh I'll steal, a quote from uh Danny Ryan according to Albert knee who said that ethereum's, like an intellectual gravity well and yeah I, mean I. Think that's the case like ethereum is like a really outstanding community and I think that we're able to sort of uh adapt to whatever comes our way, so I think I. Think uh good things are possible, I'm running a little short on time, so let me see I think I just had a few slides so yeah.

B

Thank you, okay, my problem um right. So, just a few more slides and uh the first one is I just want to again call your attention to like yeah. How can we actually start to to work on these issues um with this problem of validator centralization like yeah? It's just supporting r d towards PBS I think there is some like nice PBS solution that we could get to, and we may realize that there isn't one and that's also great, but uh the work.

B

The work needs to be done and we'll see what happens in the meantime. We have this thing called map boost, so there's like an off chain implementation of PBS uh started by flashbots and uh many others. Now they've recently made a call for like open stewardship of the project. So that's a great way to get involved.

B

I've called out the GitHub repo format boost, there's also some stuff around how this interface between the core ethereum software and this Builder network works and those specs are under this Builder specs repo, uh some things that you know that Community will be looking at very soon is like address, addressing sensitive resistance, I'm, also working on this notion of a really monitor.

B

There's this, like very trusted actor in red boost right now called a relay and they can kind of do some bad things, and the idea of the really monitor is to add some like automated monitoring, uh to figure out when they're doing things we don't like and that then we'll feed back into med boost to hopefully uh make the situation a bit better than it is today, if you're interested to help there's a repo there that I have and please I would love contributions and then yeah I mean you probably get the sense that this this, like Builder centralization problem, is maybe even poorly defined like I.

B

Think that's the first place to start. There is just like defining exactly what we mean because I think it's like a big umbrella for many things. You could start pulling a bunch out of it. Maybe if we can like Define the problem, we can start cutting into smaller pieces. That are, you know, easier to make progress on.

B

um You know, for example, if we do some sort of like NPC or like some crazy, State Channel thing, then how far can we push the cryptography to like? Actually get the properties we want. uh How could we like now in this, like very complex system, address uh or analyze all the incentives to figure out like okay, this, this mechanism, actually work and I? Think so far? Flashbots has done a lot of the thinking here. So I just wanted to call out them.

B

uh They have a form at collective.net and if you're interested in thinking about this reading about this research and things like that uh check that out and that's it yeah thanks. um There might be just a few minutes for questions and uh yeah. If you want to get involved, just uh here's, my Twitter and I can I'll answer any more questions. You have direct you to the next step. All that awesome.

A

We can ask one or two questions: if there's any questions, just raise your hand quickly make sure it's a short one, we'll pass that mic over there to you in a second uh just over there.

C

Hey um my name is Marat I'm part of block native. We build a lot of blocks. um Flashbots has a great Searcher reputation system, I mean we can talk about how great it is and whatnot, but I'm wondering if there's a reputation system that we can come up with within the protocol for Block builders in the future as well.

B

Right so I would push back immediately and ask how much we want actually in the protocol, because, like once, it's there, it's like very fixed, um but yeah I mean again like a lot of these I. Think more like research or, like even you know, even even less formed ideas around distributed. Building need to take things like that into account like you're, going to have some actors who are like helping the Builder do their job or you can even think like the Searchers.

B

Are the builders in this context and yeah like that's one way is like. Ideally, we could have some cryptographic mechanism where, like everyone does like perfect searching and valid like users, get all the value that is allotted to them and that's great I, don't think the cryptography is there uh and then perhaps it will be one day, but not today. So then yeah we'll then rely on like trust, reputation. Things like this in the short term, um so yeah I mean it's definitely a very interesting place to uh to look at amazing.

A

That's the time all the time you have for questions and uh we're ready for our next talk. So please give Alex a big round of applause.