►
From YouTube: What to know about Zero Knowledge | Devcon Bogotá
Description
Visit the https://archive.devcon.org/ to gain access to the entire library of Devcon talks with the ease of filtering, playlists, personalized suggestions, decentralized access on Swarm, IPFS and more.
https://archive.devcon.org/archive/watch/6/what-to-know-about-zero-knowledge/
Zero Knowledge, aka ZK, has become a catch-all term to represent much of "modern" or "advanced" cryptography -- especially cryptography that's relevant to the future of blockchains.
In this panel, we will share our perspectives on ZK -- how to think about it, what to look out for, and what to focus in on. We'll also discuss how ZK may alter and complement Ethereum's own future.
Speaker(s): gubsheep, Albert Ni, Barry Whitehat, Vitalik Buterin
Skill level: Beginner
Track: ZKPs: Privacy, Identity, Infrastructure, & More
Keywords: ZKP,Zero Knowledge,Future of Ethereum,Scalability,Security,Privacy
Follow us: https://twitter.com/efdevcon, https://twitter.com/ethereum
Learn more about devcon: https://www.devcon.org/
Learn more about ethereum: https://ethereum.org/
Devcon is the Ethereum conference for developers, researchers, thinkers, and makers.
Devcon 6 was held in Bogotá, Colombia on Oct 11 - 14, 2022.
Devcon is organized and presented by the Ethereum Foundation, with the support of our sponsors. To find out more, please visit https://ethereum.foundation/
A
A
A
A
This
already
happened
with
the
word
crypto
a
long
time
ago,
like
six
whole
years
ago,
crypto
used
to
mean
cryptography,
but
now
it
generally
refers
to
a
much
broader
set
of
things
such
as
cryptocurrency
or
just
this
kind
of
circularly
defined,
quote-unquote,
crypto
space
and
here
in
a
case
of
History,
if
not
repeating
then
at
least
rhyming.
Something
similar
has
happened
with
the
term
zero
knowledge
or
ZK.
A
When
I
thought
about
this,
I
was
like
it's
almost
like
someone
somewhere
went
through
an
escalating
series
of
dares
like
I.
Dare
you
to
hijack
the
meaning
of
the
word
crypto?
Oh,
you
did
it
well.
That
was
too
easy,
because
you
know
the
word
cryptocurrency
even
has
crypto
in
it.
How
about
you
do
something
really
ridiculous
like
take
an
objectively
defined
terms
such
as
zero
knowledge
and
repurpose
it
to
include
stuff
that
is
literally
not
at
all
zero
knowledge,
and
so
that
is
the
first
thing
to
know
about
zero
knowledge.
A
A
So
to
summarize
ZK
used
to
mean
zero
knowledge,
as
in
I
am
able
to
prove
that
I
know
something
without
revealing
anything
beyond
that
fact,
but
in
practice,
ZK
now
tends
to
refer
to
a
broader
usage
of
proof
techniques
that
have
some
important
properties.
Now.
What
are
these
properties?
A
very
incomplete
list
includes
Precision
correctness
and
succinctness,
for
example,
when
ZK
is
used
for
privacy.
That's
an
example
of
high
Precision,
because
you
can
provide
better
privacy
when
you
are
more
precise
about
what
information
is
exchanged
and
succinctness.
A
Is
another
way
of
saying
that
in
some
instances,
ZK
is
used
as
this
compression
super
weapon
now
compression
is
super
important,
especially
in
a
blockchain
context,
because,
as
we
know,
the
cost
of
storing
data
can
be
quite
high,
and
so
that's
why,
for
example,
a
ZK
roll-up
doesn't
actually
provide
privacy;
rather
it
provides
a
more
succinct
guarantee
of
correctness,
but
anyway
enough
about
how
I
think
about
ZK.
My
thoughts
are
both
surely
flawed
and
incomplete,
which
is
why
I
have
these
three
fine
gentlemen
up
here
with
me
today:
gup
sheep,
Barry
vitalik.
A
A
B
Hey
everyone
I'm
gut
sheep
I
work
with
the
Xerox
Park
Foundation,
along
with
Justin
glibert
and
a
handful
of
other
folks
on
the
day-to-day
most
of
our
projects
are
focused
on
some
combination
of
what
we
call
application,
Level
r
d,
and
what
this
roughly
means
is
trying
to
skate
to
where
the
puck
is
going
on.
You
know
if
ethereum
public
blockchain,
slash,
New
Primitives
from
applied
photography,
get
let's
say
100x
better
over
the
next
two
to
five
years.
What
is
that
really
going
to
unlock?
So
we
help
support
this.
C
Yeah
so
I'm
Barry
I
work
with
the
PSE
team
at
the
ethereum
foundation
and
basically,
we
work
on
applying
zero
knowledge
proofs
to
achieve
both
private
private
and
scaling
applications.
So
some
of
our
projects
include
like
ckbm.
We
also
have
some
like
private
voting,
some
private
coercion
resistant
voting,
stuff
yeah.
That's
that's
mostly
what
we
work
on
I
also
work
with
other
people
in
the
ecosystem
to
to
build
these
tools
out
I'm,
in
fact,
having
a
lot
of
fun
working
with
some
of
the
people
in
their
expect
on
several
different
things.
A
Yeah
speaking
of
which
one
of
the
things
I
really
love
about,
both
PSE
and
Xerox,
Park
is,
and
we
both
have
a
desire
to
solve
what
I
would
characterize
as
the
actual
problems.
You
know,
as
opposed
to
settling
for
these
like
superficial
or
defensible
Solutions
and
I've.
Seen
both
of
the
the
groups
are
really.
A
The
collections
of
people
demonstrate
this
deep
sense
of
responsibility
for
how
to
go
about
doing
things
and
a
willingness
to
prioritize
this,
like
Collective
good,
so
just
want
to
say
on
behalf
of
the
broader
ZK
ecosystem,
which,
as
I
noted,
we
kind
of
repurposed
to
mean
something
bigger.
Now
we're
really
lucky
to
have
all
these
groups,
and
thank
you
very
much
for
that,
and
so
on
that
note,
let's
dive
in
on
on
the
core
topics
here
today.
A
One
way
that
I
like
to
learn
about
a
topic
is
to
ask
people
who
know
more
about
that
topic
than
me,
which
definitely
includes
all
three
of
these
folks
here,
I
like
to
ask
people
what
has
been
surprising
to
them.
What
has
surprise
them
so
when
it
comes
to
ZK
what
has
been
surprising
over,
let's
say
the
last
three
years.
A
B
This
is
super
interesting
to
me,
because
actually
it
was
around
the
time
of
the
last
Devcon
in
2019.
that
was
first
getting
involved
in
the
space
to
begin
with,
and
when
my
like,
zero
knowledge,
Journey
was
first
starting
and
at
the
time
the
thing
that
Drew
me
in
was
basically
a
set
of
tools
built
by
the
folks
at
item
three
sir
comments
and
arcgs,
which
enabled,
for
the
first
time,
browser-based,
proving
and
in
browser
ZK
applications
that
were,
if
not
developer,
friendly,
at
least
like
developer
possible.
B
You
know
you
didn't
have
to
like
roll
your
own
cryptography
for
the
first
time,
and
the
thing
that's
just
been
continually
shocking
to
me
is,
and
I
mean
it
was
true
at
the
time,
and
it
continues
to
be
true.
Today
is
I
think
that
a
lot
of
people
find
zero
knowledge
to
be
a
very
scary
term.
It
seems
like.
Oh,
you
know,
this
is
Moon
math.
This
is
something
you
need
like.
B
You
know
specialization
and
number
Theory
to
understand,
but
really
there's
just
so
many
ways
to
get
started
with
zero
knowledge
and
so
many
things
that
you
can
build
and
contribute
to,
depending
on
whatever
level
of
the
stack.
It
is
that
you
have
expertise
on,
and
you
know
the
space
has
just
been
surprisingly
accessible
for
both
math
and
CS
technical
generalists
overall
I'd
say.
The
second
thing
that
kind
of
you
know
is
very
complementary
to
that.
B
Is
that,
as
a
result,
the
space
has
been
moving
much
more
quickly
than
we
originally
or
at
least
I
initially
would
have
expected.
I
mean
I,
know.
Barry
has
a
lot
to
say
about
like
ZK
evm,
with
respect
to
this,
but
you
know
I,
look
at
my
old
notes
from
like
2020
or
2021,
when
I'm
trying
to
flesh
out
what
are
some
of
the
open,
like
application,
Level
r
d
directions.
B
I
remember
like
last
year,
I
wrote
something
like
we
had
a
student
pay
Ren
who
built
out
linear
regression
inside
of
a
star
work,
and
we
were
thinking.
Oh,
you
know
maybe,
like
five
years
in
the
future,
it'll
be
possible
to
put
a
neural
network
in
the
snark,
and
you
know
lo
and
behold.
Actually
this
past
Sunday,
which
was
like
not
even
a
year
from
when
I'd
written,
that
we
had
two
teams
that
presented
on
their
work
on
building
like
mnist
and
you
know
various
classifiers
inside
of
the
Halo
2
proving
system.
C
Yeah,
so
thank
you,
Brian,
like
just
to
build
on
what
you
said.
I
think
that,
like
on
your
first
point
about
like
getting
into
the
space
I,
think
one
of
the
like
most
powerful
ways
you
could
get
in
now,
because
we
have
all
of
these
high-level
tools.
You
can
black
box
out
a
lot
of
the
crypto
components.
It
makes
a
lot
more
accessible,
okay,
but
to
answer
the
original
question,
the
thing
that
most
surprised
me
was
yeah
so
for
three
years
ago,
I
didn't
really
think
that
ckvm
was
possible.
A
D
Actually
so
before
I
answer,
I
should
mention.
There's
one
really
important
word
that
the
crypto
space
has
butchered
that
you
forgot
to
mention,
which
is
inflation
like
remember
how,
in
you
know,
good
old,
traditional
lands.
Inflation
actually
refers
to
like
changes
in
the
price
level
of
Commodities
in
terms
of
an
asset,
and
we
just
looked
totally
portrait.
It
changed
it
to
refer
to
the
total
quantity
of
it
asset
yeah.
That's
us
we're
great.
D
I
think
it's
fascinating
because,
like
if
we
step
back
and
just
think
about
you
know
like
what
is
the
ideal,
the
kind
of
technical
vision
of
eblock
chain
like
what
would
I
you
know,
love
to
see,
ethereum,
look
more
like
10
years
from
now
right,
like
the
kind
of
vision
that
I
think
I
gave
a
couple
of
days
ago
is
imagine
a
world
where
everyone
you
know
it,
whether
they're
a
validator
or
there's
someone
else.
They
run
a
node
and
they
just
run
a
node
on
their
phone.
D
So
you
know,
if
you
want,
you
can
even
stake:
a
million
bucks,
a
piece
on
your
phone
and
every
12
seconds,
a
job
walk
comes
in
and
that
block
contains
3.6
megabytes
of
data,
and
you
know
you
download
3.6
megabytes
of
data,
because
these
days
phone
planes
are
getting
faster
and
faster
yeah
and
and
you
hash
it,
and
then
you
check
it
against
one
snark.
You
know
the
checks
like
like
three
or
four
polynomial
equations,
and
then
that's
it.
You
just
know
that
the
block
is
correct.
D
All
you
have
to
do
is
just
take
3.6,
a
mix
of
data
downloaded,
you
know,
do
a
few
hash.
It
do
a
couple,
polynomial
checks-
and
you
know
you
magically
know
that
this
is
the
correct
block
right.
So
in
that
kind
of
future
you
know
running
a
node
becomes
vastly
easy
or
ethereum
becomes
much
more
decentralized.
A
D
But
the
challenge
in
practice
has
always
been
like.
Oh
you
know
how
many
constraints
is
it
going
to
take?
How
much
inefficiency
are
we
going
to
eat?
Is
this
actually
viable?
But
you
know,
since
we
saw
polanky
in
2019,
and
we
saw
they
get
I
think
like
unlocked
a
huge
number
of
things
because
flunk
was
like
it
wasn't
just
a
protocol.
It
was
like
this
medic
conceptual
weep
when
you
could
start
separately
thinking
about
which
polynomial
commitments
do
you
use
to
enforce
your
polynomial
equations,
and
how
do
you
convert
what
you
wanted?
D
You
know
if
it's
we've
seen
pluck
up,
which
is
amazing
for
solving
like
pretty
much
all
or
making
pretty
much
all
kind
of
all.
Traditionally,
snark
unfriendly
computation
into
something:
that's
like,
maybe
only
medium,
Stark,
unfriendly
and
then
a
couple
of
other
improvements.
And
then
you
know,
we've
been
seeing
all
this
amazing
work
on
ZK
VMS.
At
the
same
time,
all
this
amazing
work
on
compilers
to
try
to
make
it
easy
to
compile
things
and
then,
at
the
same
time,
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
companies
that
are
quietly
working
on
ZK
evm,
Asics
I'm.
D
You
know
kind
of
hoping
that
now
that
mining
is
gone,
the
you
know
the
miners
are
going
to
reach
rain
and
become
developers.
Like
literally
you
know,
you
know
we're
going
to
have
a
amazing
companies
that
are
going
to
create,
like
you
know,
super
fast
DK
proving
hardware
and
like
maybe
in
five
to
ten
years,
we'll
actually
get
there
and
you
know
you'll
be
able
to,
like
you
know,
run
a
full
node
on
your
phone
and,
like
you
know,
stake
as
much.
A
We
will
have
some
time
for
predictions,
so
I'm
excited
to
hear
what
you
actually
want
to
put
your
foot
on
the
ground
for
when
it
comes
to
what
miners
will
do
in
the
future.
That's
an
area
that
I,
don't
think
I've
heard
much
from
before
and
I
guess.
Building
on
this
a
natural
question
for
myself
and
I'm
sure
many
people
in
the
audience
like
how
do
you
all
see
ZK
complementing
the
future
of
ethereum?
That
can
mean
a
lot
of
different
things.
D
One
so
what
one
of
the
ways
I
think
about
for
why
ZK
is
a
natural
compliments
to
blockchains?
Is
that
blockchains
give
you
censorship,
resistance
and
amino
trans
guaranteed
execution
and
a
couple
you
know
a
couple
of
other
guarantees,
but
at
the
cost
of
two
really
important
things,
one
is
scalability.
The
other
is
privacy.
D
Well
what
what
two
properties
are
in
aziki
snark
sub,
exactly
tailored
for
scalability
and
privacy
right,
so
it's
like
they
too
almost
fit
together
perfectly
like
you
know
these
pieces
of
a
puzzle
and
no
one
just
like
completely
solves
the
weaknesses
of
the
other.
So
I
think
you
know
they're
a
perfect
fit
and
like
there's
a
lot
of
applications
where,
if
you
just,
if
you
only
have
one,
they
don't
make
sense,
but
if
you
have
both,
they
just
suddenly
start
fitting
together.
C
Like
the
way
that
I
think
about
this,
is
that,
like
blockchains,
are
creating
these
massive
data
sets
and
these
data
sets
are
available
and
public
and
there's
so
much
Rich
information.
That's
going
to
be
there,
it's
going
to
be
very
like
in
in
order
for
in
order
to
allow
people
to
make
like
proofs
about
this
information.
You
need
privacy,
and
you
also
need
succinctness
so
like
there's
some
things
that
we
can
do
already
like.
C
It
has
social
connections
and
interactions
and
like
what
I
want
to
see
us
do
in
the
future
is
to
start
to
explore
ways
to
make
to
make
proofs
about
this
kind
of,
like
shared
network
data,
that
I
don't
know
all
the
private
information
about,
but
I
can
work
with
a
group
of
other
people
in
order
to
make
a
proof,
for
example,
that
oh
I
am
two
steps
away
from
a
certain
person
in
the
social
graph.
That's
like
that's!
Where
I
see
some
really
exciting
things
coming
in
the
future
and.
A
C
A
A
But
it's
neat
that,
in
this
context,
we're
looking
at
ways
to
make
it
a
bit
more
of
a
feature
because,
like
you
said
it's
an
incredibly
rich
and
verified
data
set,
arguably
the
richest
most
verified
data
set
ever
produced
and
the
ability
to
kind
of
work
with
that
using
proofs
in
various
ways
is
just
something
that
is
going
to
be
really
interesting
and
I.
Think
something
that
you've
thought
a
lot
about.
So.
B
Yeah,
maybe
I'll
give
two
framings
for
I
think
the
equivalent
concept,
but
from
a
slightly
different
angle,
because
I
think
that
these
are
useful
when
thinking
about
like
what
kinds
of
applications
might
be
powerful
in
the
future.
The
first
is,
you
know
to
to
dig
into
that
complementary
framing
of
what
ZK
and
ethereum
have
as
a
relationship.
B
One
thing
that
is
interesting
about
ZK,
taken,
you
know
just
alone-
is
that
in
some
sense
DK
proofs
are
stateless,
so
I
can
prove,
for
example,
that
I
know
the
pre-image
of
a
hash
that
is
contained
in
a
Merkle
root.
But
you
know
why
would
someone
care
about
that
particular
Merkle
room
right,
like
a
common
question,
actually
that
we
get
when
we're
introducing
new
developers
into
ZK
is
like
well?
Can
I
use
the
ZK
proof
to
prove
that
I?
B
B
However,
what
the
ethereum
blockchain
does
is
it
allows
us
to
come
to
consensus
on
what's
important,
which
I
think
is
kind
of
like
a
little
bit
of
the
flip
side
of
some
of
barriers
and
variant
vitalik
streaming,
so
we
imbue
a
certain
Merkle
root
or
a
certain
block,
hash
or
cryptographic
accumulator
with
meaning
and
that's
what
gives
ZK
proofs
their
power?
That's
what
gives
DK
proofs
like
their
semantic
meaning
and
then
the
second
kind
of
framing
that
I
would
think
about.
Is
you
know
this
is
to
go
off
of
Albert's
comment?
Blockchains?
B
Are
it's
almost
kind
of
like
an
accident
that,
in
order
to
build
something
like
basically
a
consensus
engine
that
we
can
all
agree,
basically
on
a
certain
state
route
or
something
like
that,
all
the
data
has
to
be
transparent
and
I?
Think
that
that's
not
necessarily
like?
That's
not
intrinsic.
You
know
we
can
use
these
new
tools
like
ZK
proofs
or
witness
encryption
or
whatever
else,
to
build
systems
where
we
can
still
come
to
consensus.
A
Yeah,
can
you
expand
on
that
a
little
bit,
because
one
conversation
that
we've
had
with,
for
example,
various
more
traditional
tech
companies?
Is
this
idea
of
making
the
data
that
they
have?
You
know
private
and
literally
their
databases
available,
but
not
available
in
the
conventional?
Well,
we
just
reveal
all
of
it,
because
they're
obviously
not
going
to
do
that,
but
available
in
the
sense
of
being
amenable
to
proofs
and
other
things
that
people
can
then
use
outside
of
those
systems.
B
You
there
oh
yeah
one.
One
thing
that
I
think
could
be
really
interesting
is
like
what
if
we
took
I
mean
this
is
super
blue
sky
far
out,
but
knowing
how
fast
the
DK's
going?
Maybe
it's
not
actually,
as
far
out
as
we
think
imagine,
we
took
some
traditional
web
to
social
company.
That's
got
an
account
model,
whether
that's
like
Facebook
or
Twitter,
or
Reddit,
or
something
like
that
and
on
these
Services.
Maybe
what
we
could
imagine
is
like
the
service
provider
would
produce
a
state
route
for
everyone's
account.
B
Now
it's
not
going
to
necessarily
show
all
of
the
underlying
data
that
is
underneath
the
state
route,
because
that
might
include
like
your
password,
your
password
hash,
but
at
the
very
least
what
they
might
publish
is
like
a
Merkle
tree
of
a
bunch
of
accounts
date.
Roots
now
what
you
the
user
can
do
is
your
personal
data
is
still
private
to
you
and
the
service
provider
like
whether
that's
Twitter
or
Facebook
or
Reddit,
the
actual
data.
B
Only
a
hash
commitment
to
that
data
is
being
shared,
but
you
can
start
making
ZK
proofs
that
everyone
knows
are
actually
valid
and
are
using
an
attested
to
data
set
you're,
not
making
something
up.
So
you
can
prove,
for
example,
that,
like
I
am
in
this
Facebook
group
I'm
in
this
subreddit
I
have
this
reputation.
Maybe
I
can
carry
that
reputation
from
one
platform
to
another
platform,
and
that
I
think
is
a
really
interesting,
like
interoperability
mechanism
between
the
web
2
world
and
the
web
3
world.
A
A
Well,
if
they
publish
a
state
route,
they
at
least
can't
change
things
after
that,
and
by
the
way,
a
very
natural
place
to
put
that
state
route
would
be
on
a
decentralized
blockchain,
so
I
think,
even
though
it
isn't
anywhere
near
the
same
as
like
the
ethereum
blockchain's
history,
we
still
get
something
there,
that
is
I,
think
quite
interesting
and
the
ramifications
of
which
we
really
haven't
even
scratched
the
surface.
So
I'm.
A
Forward
here,
I
building
on
this
whole,
like
let's
just
talk
about
different
topics,
build
up
different
Vantage
points
to
try
to
learn
more
about
it.
One
game
I
like
to
play
is
what
I
call
the
underrated
overrated
game,
which
is
simply
to
say
what
do
you
think
is
underrated
in
the
space
right
now
and
what
do
you
think
is
overrated
in
the
space?
So
maybe,
let's
start
with
with
underrated
and
again
I'll
kind
of
throw
it
out
there
for
anyone
to
pick
up.
C
I
feel
like
that's
much
more
important
so
than
than
the
kind
of
financial
privacy
applications
so
in
the
Western.
World
I
think
that,
like
social,
private,
social
media
and
things
like
that
are
much
more
interesting
in
the
developing
world.
It's
completely
different
right
in
the
developing
world.
It's
just
so
so
important
to
have
Financial
privacy
that
it's
like
yeah,
like
one
thing
that
I
kind
of
was
really
surprised
about.
C
A
I
think
that's
really
interesting
also
because
and
I
think
really
fitting
when
you
consider
even
this
Devcon,
where
it's
located
and
a
lot
of
the
themes
that
have
gone
into
it,
which
is
when
you
try
to
say
whether
some
thing
is
underrated
or
overrated.
It's
also,
by
definition,
a
manner
of
perspective
where
we're
looking
at
things
really
affects
things
a
lot
of
times.
Something
is
underrated
or
overrated,
because
it's
relative
to
you
know
something
else
that
might
be
drawing
more
attention.
D
Is
probably
applications
of
ZK
proofs
in
areas
that
have
nothing
to
do
with
what
we
consider
to
be
the
traditional
crypto
space?
So
you
know
government
records
of
various
kinds.
I
mean
the
example
of
like
proving
things
inside
of
social
media
applications,
I
mean
even
I
mean
even
games.
I
mean
like
possibly
supply
chain
stuff
like
there's
just
a
whole
bunch
of
areas
where,
like
maybe
it
also
makes
sense
to
put
a
blockchain
in.
Sometimes
it
does
sometimes
it
doesn't
but
like
even
if
it
doesn't.
A
Yeah
absolutely
I
think
that's
super
underrated,
at
least
from
my
personal
perspective,
which
is
a
lot
of
what
we're
calling
ZK
doesn't
require
a
blockchain.
As
we've
noted,
it's
very
complementary,
but
there's
a
lot
of
situations
where
you
straight
up
are
no
longer
constrained
by
operating
on
top
of
a
blockchain
and
as
many
people
here
are
very
familiar,
I
love
the
blockchain,
but
it
can
be
quite
constraining
to
work
with
at
times.
So
that's
something
I
think
will
also
unlock
innovation
in.
B
B
You
know
a
rich
set
of
basically
cryptographic
claims
that
actually,
you
know,
as
a
matter
of
fact,
exists
in
the
world
outside
of
blockchains
as
well.
Whether
that's
you
know
the
signatures
in
your
like
GitHub
commitment,
history
or
like
the
signatures
that
you
know
various
like
Communication
service
providers,
whether
that's
like
messaging
services,
email,
Services,
Etc,
use
to
authenticate
your
messages
or
signatures
on
blockchains
themselves,
and
one
of
the
crazy
things
about
snarks
is
that
they
turn
these
signatures
into
things
that
can
talk
to
each
other.
B
So
we
moved
from
this
world
where,
like
the
RSA
signature,
algorithm
can
only
be
understood
by
other
parties
that
are
running.
You
know
the
RSA
signature
algorithm
to
being
being
able
to
put
the
RSA
signature
algorithm
inside
of
a
snark
which
is
sort
of
this,
like
general
purpose.
Programmable
cryptography
construct-
and
you
can
do
things
like
I,
either
contain
this
RSA
private
key
to
this
GitHub
account
or
I
possess
this
ecdsa
private
key
to
an
ethereum
account
and
you
can
start
making
these
like.
B
Cross-Platform
claims
and
I
think
that
that's
something
that's
underrated
and
hasn't
been
thought
about
enough,
and
you
know
I
know,
there's
there's
a
number
of
like
PSE
and
Xerox
Park
teams
that
are
thinking
about
these
things
that
are
actually
going
to
demo
this
week.
So
if
you
want
to
check
out
ayusha's
ZK
email
project,
I
think
this
is
a
really
really
awesome,
one
in
particular.
C
Just
to
build
on
what
Brian
has
said
so
Brian
was
so
one
thing:
I
think
that
is
underrated
in
the
space.
Is
that
that
we
are
expect
we're
having
a
lot
of
social
media
experiments
happening
and,
like
I,
think
that
social
media
will
will
make
internet
discourse
become
more
collectivist
and
less
individualistic
and
like
the
the
reason
that
I
think
this
is.
Is
that?
A
So
that's
super
interesting.
What
you're
saying
is
because
these
technologies
will
enable
us,
for
instance,
to
form
these
groups
where
we
simultaneously
kind
of
get
to
draft
off
of
the
reputation
of
the
group.
But
then
we
also
impact
the
reputation
of
that
group.
You
think,
or
you
can
see
how
it
will,
for
instance,
make
thinking
more
collectivist
in
in
certain
situations.
Is
that
about
right,
yeah.
C
Right
because,
like
I
see
today,
that,
like
a
lot
of
social
media,
is,
is
very
individualistic
right.
A
lot
of
people
are
focused
on
like
more
likes
on
Instagram
or
or
retweets
on
Twitter,
and
things
like
that
and
like
that
leads
to
these
kind
of
incentives
that
are
inherently
about
like
performance.
A
Develop
yeah,
that's
super
fascinating
one.
Other
thing
that
always
jumps
to
mind
for
me.
Right
now
is
being
underrated
and
I.
Think
you
guys
have
a
lot
of
thoughts
on
this
is
just
the
kind
of
community
and
ecosystem
that
exists
in
ZK
right
now.
What
have
you
observed
and
maybe
even
compare
and
contrast
a
little
bit
with,
let's
say
the
more
conventional
crypto
ecosystem
if
it
can
even
be
called
such
a
thing.
C
So
a
couple
of
things
that
I've
observed
it
tends
to
be
that,
like
people
who
are
drawn
to
the
ZK
space
tend
to
be
like
really
Technical
and
really
just
excited
to
learn
things
and
do
things
and
that's
just
that's,
really
really
fun.
The
other
thing
that
I've
observed
is
that,
like
I've
seen
like
companies
who
are
like
competitors
with
each
other,
like
working
together
so
much
to
like
train
people
and
audit
each
other's
code,
and
things
like
that
and
I
think
that
that's
just
really
really
great.
B
So
you
need
to
be
permissively
licensing
your
code,
or
at
least
you
know,
I
mean
permissively
licensing
is
going
to
be
sort
of
the
gold
standard,
because
then
you're
going
to
get
people
digging
into
the
actual
intricacies
and
understanding.
You
know
all
of
the
subtleties
and
edge
cases,
but
I
think
that's
something.
That's
a
really
powerful
effect.
A
Yeah
one
thing
I
was
actually
reminded
of
this
morning
when
Danny
Ryan
gave
his
talk.
Was
he
said
that
I
had
said
and
I
honestly
didn't
remember,
saying
this
but
I
believe
him.
He
said
that
I
had
said
that
you
know
crypto.
Is
this
intellectual
gravity?
Well,
that's
something
I've
absolutely
felt
for
many
years
right
down
to
the
part
where
I
literally
again
repurposed
the
word
crypto
there
and
I.
The
only
other
thing,
I've
really
seen
in
recent
years.
That
gives
me
that
same
feeling
is
what
we
are
now
calling
ZK.
A
It
has
a
lot
of
these
similar
intellectual
gravity,
well,
effects
and
I.
Think
for
better
for
worse,
like
blockchains,
are
inherently
financialized,
like
the
very
invention
of
a
blockchain,
is
kind
of
introducing
this
incentive.
Dimension,
that's
orthogonal,
it's
a
more
conventional
consensus,
Theory
and
other
things.
Much
of
the
core
consensus
Theory
actually
existed
well
before
blockchain's
did
so
you
can't
get
away
from
this
financialized
aspect
of
blockchains
and
and
that's
been
great
in
many
ways.
A
I
think
that's
actually
really
been
a
positive
for
a
lot
of
the
development
interest
in
the
space,
but
it
also
causes
the
attraction
of
like
other
forces
and
factors
that
knock
on
wood.
I
think
are
a
little
bit
harder
to
do
in
a
ZK
context,
though
I
would
never
bet
against
the
broader
crypto
spaces
ability
to
figure
out
how
to
financialize
the
hell
out
of
something.
A
C
C
So
basically,
the
way
I
think
about
this
is
that
zero
knowledge
proofs
can
be
I.
Allow
you
to
have
like
private
interactions
with
people,
and
that
means
that
you're
able
to
build
trust
in
in
an
environment
where
there
is
no
trust,
and
it
turns
out
that
this
is
really
important
for,
like
the
negotiations
between
people.
So
like
kind
of
like
the
the
the
easy
path
to
this.
C
That
I
see
is
that
the
the
the
possession
of
software
bugs
will
become
so
serious
that
there
will
be
this
crisis
and
in
order
to
overcome
the
crisis,
we'll
need
to
prove
to
each
other
how
many
software
bugs
each
like
nation-state
holds.
So
they
can
use
a
zero
knowledge
proof
to
prove
that
they
know
a
software
bug
for
ethereum
or
for
a
Firefox,
and
this
will
be
the
first
step
in
decommissioning.
The
the
software
bug
arsenals
that
people
have
accumulated.
B
Yeah
I
have
a
few,
maybe
that
are
less
like
specific
and
precise
than
berries
and
hopefully,
and
unfortunately,
less
like
inspiring
and
galvanizing,
but
I
think
you
know
in
terms
of
like
really
large
scale.
Trends
I
think
that
right
now-
and
you
can
even
see
this
reflected
in
the
programming
of
this
Devcon,
this
idea
of
ZK
applications
is
being
seen
as
almost
like
a
product
or
application
category,
and
my
belief
is
that,
like
these
New
cryptographic,
Primitives
are
going
to
be
so
ubiquitous
that,
in
you
know,
say
20
years.
B
You
know
similarly
to
how
we
had
a
lot
of
folks
calling
websites.coms
or
this
idea
of
like
the.com
industry,
we're
going
to
move
instead
to
this
world,
where
you
have
this,
like
massive
space
of
applications
and
coordination
mechanisms
that
require
info
information,
asymmetry
which
turns
out
to
be
a
really
really
fundamental,
primitive
and
how
that
information
asymmetry
is
created
is
not
going
to
be
the
focus
it's
more
going
to
be.
Like
you
know
much
like
today
we
have
e-commerce
sites
or
like
storefronts
or
landing
pages
or
browser-based
games.
B
D
One
kind
of
medium
inspiring
one
I
guess
that's
a
little
bit
less
intense
to
someone
winning
a
Nobel
Prize,
but
I
think
is
still
important
to
recalibrate.
Our
thoughts
around
is
that
I
think
over
the
next
10
years.
It
will
become
recognized
that
aziki
snarks
are
at
least
as
important
as
technology
as
watch
ends
are.
A
Well,
that's
very
that
I
think
that
is
depending
on
your
point
of
view,
perhaps
as
exciting
as
the
Nobel
Peace
Prize,
like
I
I'll,
think
the
Nobel
Peace
Prize
is
an
amazing
thing,
but
I'm
also
kind
of
curious
to
see.
If
we
can,
you
know
build
up
even
Alternatives
or
other.
You
know
other
sort
of
recognition
emergently.
So
it
you
sort
of
alluded
this
earlier
with
some
of
the
complementary
stuff
like
how
ZK
complements
blockchains
when
you
say
as
important.
That
also
implies
like
how
do
you
think
blockchains
are
important.
You
also
talked
about
that.
D
And
so
I
think,
like
you,
can
look
at
at
ZK,
both
as
massively
enhancing
what
blockchains
could
do
and
possibly
even
being
unnecessary
ingredients
in
getting
blockchains
be
getting
to
like
the
real
high
scalability
levels
of
high
scalability,
that
a
lot
of
applications
require,
and
you
could
also
think
of
you-
know-
ZK
applications
beyond
the
blockchain
space
right.
So
for
the
first
one
like
you
know,
we
talked
a
lot
about
Roll-Ups.
We
talked
about
dkvms,
we
talked
about.
D
You
know
my
dream,
for
the
look
and
feel
of
running
an
ethereum
validator
in
2032,
and
you
know
prototype.
Some
of
this
may
even
come
much
much
faster
than
2032
I.
Don't
know
you
know
these
people
are
insane,
but
the-
and
you
know,
without
this
kind
of
Technology
like
it-
would
actually
take
a
lot
more
sacrifices
to
get
blockchains
to
you
know
hundreds
of
thousands
of
transactions,
a
second
right.
D
So
that's
the
first
part
and
then
the
second
part
is
just
you
know
the
the
kinds
of
things
that
ZK
Snorks
would
enable
like.
Even
if
we
just
imagine
a
world
where,
like
blockchains
as
a
technology,
don't
exist
and
are
turned
off,
and
you
just
ask
the
question
of
like
okay,
you
know
the
world
is
dominated
by.
You
know
Facebook
and
Google,
and
you
know
whatever
stuff
the
Chinese
government
supports,
and
you
know
we're
stuck
with
that.
A
I,
don't
know
how
far
we
can
get
in
the
Weeds
on
this.
What
are
some
of
these
other
sort
of
ZK
adjacent
future
technologies?
That
might
be
interesting.
You
know
like
homomorphic,
encryption
or
indistinguishability,
obfuscation
or
just
other
stuff
in
that
category.
Anything
that,
like
jumps
to
mind,
is
just
like
keeping
out,
maybe
not
too
much
of
an
eye
out,
because
we
are
pretty
far
from
some
of
this
stuff,
but
yeah
anything
that
hops
to
mind
for
you
guys.
C
A
C
There's
all
like
the
richest
information
is,
is
to
do
with
like
social
networks
and
social
interactions,
and
if
we
want
to
make
proofs
about
that,
we'll
need
to
be
able
to
make
proofs
about
shared
secrets
and
that's
what
multi-party
computation
lets
you
do.
It
allows
you
to
make
proofs
about
about
shared
secrets,
so
I
think
that
we
can
leverage
these
kind
of
things
to
make
this
kind
of
like
proofs
of
connection
in
Social
graphs,
where
you
don't
know
anyone's
connections
other
than
yourselves.
Your
own.
D
Well,
I
think
these
are
big
kind
of
price
of
prizes
in
cryptography
that
it's
worth
talking
about
is
obfuscation
right
because
obfuscation
basically
lets
you
turn
a
program
into
an
encrypted
program,
but
where
you
can
run
that
encrypted
program
and
it
has
the
same
outputs
on
the
same
inputs.
But
if
that
program
the
original
program
source
code
had
Secrets
inside
of
it
the
encrypted
program
would
not
let
you
extract
those
Secrets.
D
It
would
only
let
you
just
run
the
exact
code
on
this
on
the
API
secrets
and
the
inputs
and
give
you
the
outputs
right.
So
the
reason
what
one
way
to
see
how
obfuscation
is
so
powerful
is
like
pretty
much
any
other
cryptographic.
Primitive
can
be
done
with
up
with
obfuscation
right.
So
you
know,
if
you
want
to
let's
say
yeah
turn
like
make
signatures
out
of
obfuscation
right
then.
D
The
way
that
you
would
do
it
is
you
would,
you
know,
say,
take
any
symmetric
signature
scheme
so,
like
you
know,
take
something
where
you
just
like
generate
a
big
hash
and
you'll.
You
know
add
the
data
to
the
hash.
Just
like
some
really
simple
thing,
then
you
would
take
the
the
private
key.
Just
like
is
the
encryption
key
of
that
and
then
the
public
Key
Well.
D
D
Ironically
right
you
basically
just
you
know,
literally
create
an
obfuscated
program
where
you'd
be
able
to
just
like
stick
in
a
piece
of
code,
and
it
would
run
that
piece
of
code
and
sign
it
with
a
key
that
it
has
internally
and
give
you
the
output
right,
and
that
gives
you
possibly
the
best
possible
Zeke
snark,
because
to
verifying
it
is
super
simple
to
verify.
You'll
literally
just
verify
one
signature
right
and
then
you
could
do
really
fancy
stuff.
A
Yeah
and
what's
going
to
be
really
interesting,
is
to
see,
like
you
said,
the
the
rate
of
progress
here.
I,
remember
myself,
I
think
it
was
back
in
2012
or
2013.
before
I
was
even
interested
in
blockchains.
I
first
got
exposed
to
the
concept
of
fully
homomorphic
encryption.
I
was
visiting
former
intern
of
mine,
who
also
went
to
the
same
University
and
she
described
it
as
like.
A
That's
a
lot
of
progress
and
it's
going
to
be
like
I,
said
really
exciting
to
just
keep
working
on
this
and
seeing
what
we
can
unlock
and
we've
even
seen.
Some
of
that
I
think
like
with
your
experience,
is
building
in
in
the
browser
today
compared
to
three
years
ago.
What
are
some
like,
the
numbers
or
rough
ballpark?
Oh.
B
A
It's
only
it
to
make
that
more
concrete.
Some
of
the
things
I've
seen
out
of
Xerox
Park
involve
waiting
for
you
know
45
seconds,
maybe
90
seconds
not
perfect,
but
viable
right,
like
you
can
see
situations
where
someone
would
be
willing
to
wait.
You
know
one
to
two
minutes
for
something
and
that
exact
same
thing
two
and
a
half
three
years
ago,
literally,
would
have
involved.
Maybe
two
hours
or
just
actually
would
not
have
been
computationally
or
feasible
for
other
reasons
in
terms
of
like
memory
or
things
of
that
sort.
A
So
that's
to
give
everyone
a
bit
of
a
taste
of
kind
of
the
direction
we've
been
going
in,
at
least
in
some
subsets
of
this
space,
and
you
know
hopefully
that'll
continue
it.
Hopefully
some
of
the
folks
in
the
audience
can
also
get
involved
and
help
us
with
that,
and
on
that
note,
a
quick
question
just
like.
Are
there
good
places
to
quote
get
started?
It's
always
like
a
very
tricky
thing,
even
for
crypto,
more
broadly,
but
I
know
that
you
guys
have
worked
on
various
resources.
B
B
Yeah,
so
on
our
end,
one
of
our
focuses
is
like
education
and
Community
Development.
So
we
run
these
applied
ZK
learning
groups
and
we're
doing
our
best
right
now
to
get
all
those
materials
online
at
learn.0xpark.org.
So
that's
you
know
an
effort
by
various
like
community
members
and
volunteers.
I
think
like
Michael,
Chu
and
John
Grievous
are
probably
around
here
right
now.
So
that's
a
collection
of
videos,
articles
various
documents
that
have
exercises
on
how
to
just
get
started
with.
Like
writing.
Your
first
circuits.
C
Yeah,
so
the
first
thing
I
recommend
is
to
don't
get
intimidated
by
all
of
the
Moon
mats,
to
Black
Box
things
out
and
to
figure
out
what
something
does
not
how
it
does
it
and
you
can
use
that
to
build
a
whole
bunch
of
things
and
as
you're
building
those
bunch
of
things
you
can
figure
out
how
the
thing
does
what
it
does
and
like
that's.
That's
how
I
learned
and
it
was.
It
was
really
enjoyable.
C
D
Yeah
I
mean
there's
I,
think
a
lot
of
different
resources
and
like
for
people
with
you,
know
different,
like
skill
levels
and
like
in
different
interests
like
there's
a
there's
environments.
Now,
where
that
are
literally
online,
like
you
know,
ZK
repo.dev
I
think
was
one
right
and
where
you
can
just
you
know,
literally
go
and
like
start
writing
the
code
for
a
yeah
circuit
and
like
compile
it
and
it
just
outputs
to
you
a
piece
of
solidity
code
that
you
can.
Then
you
know,
stick
on
well.
D
These
days
not
mean
yet
because
it
would
be
a
bit
too
expensive,
but
you
know
some
the
layer
two
or
test
out
of
your
choice,
and
you
know
you
can
actually
kind
of
play
around
and
see
if
you
can
make
some
simple,
some
simple
application.
So
that's
a
one
way
to
learn
for
some
people.
If
you
want
to
get
into
the
math,
then
let
me
know
in
the
applied
zkp.org
page
has
I
think
a
lot
of
good
resources.
D
Zkp
dot
science
has
a
bunch,
I
mean
I,
have
a
bunch
that
I've.
You
know
that
I've
written
there's
a
bunch
that
the
starkware
team
has
written.
There's
there's
quite
a
lot
these
days
like
just
you
know.
Sometimes
it
even
makes
sense
to
read
like
multiple
explainers
on
the
same
topic,
so
you
can
see
how
they
fit
together
yeah.
So
you
know,
depending
on,
like
which
side
of
things
that
you
want
to
learn,
there's,
like
you
know,
there's
plenty
of
different
resources
for
you.
C
Yeah
just
one
other
thing:
I
wanted
to
add
that,
like
we've,
given
examples
of
how
you
can
join
if
you
want
to
be
a
developer
but
as
we
talked
about
earlier
like
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
like
community
and
ecosystem
and
cultural
things
that
are
also
super
important
and
like
I'm,
not
sure
how
to
get
involved
in
doing
that,
like
maybe
you
could
join
some
of
our
like
private
social
media
experiments,
there's
skitter
and
hey
Anon
and
yeah.
You
can
find
it
on
apply,
dkp.org
or
Xerox
Park's
website
or
you
could.
A
Yeah,
there
are
definitely
ways
to
get
involved
that
don't
imply
you
have
to
get
into
programming
or
math
side
of
things,
because
the
goal
of
all
this
is
to
touch
so
much
more
than
just.
You
know
those
areas
and
a
really
neat
thing.
That's
emerged
literally
since
the
last
Devcon
is
some
of
these
experiments
that,
among
other
things,
just
need
and
want
more
people
to
to
get
involved
and
to
participate
in
the
networks
that
are
being
built,
so
I
guess
to
kind
of
wrap
things
up
here.
A
We've
talked
a
lot
about
a
lot
of
stuff
here
today,
we're
talking
about
Big,
Stuff,
future
stuff,
some
deeply
technical
stuff,
but
one
of
the
things
that
I
personally
love
the
most
about
ethereum
is
it
is
that
ethereum
has
this
quote-unquote
soul
and
so
I'd
like
to
close
with
a
bit
more
of
a
personal
touch.
You
know
we
all
started
somewhere.
C
Like
I
mean
I
lost
connection
to
like
so
many
people,
I
lost,
like
a
social
network
that
I'd
been
building
for
years,
and
that
was
like
it.
I
still
feel
that
lost
today,
like
I,
don't
know
who
I
went
to
school
with,
like
how
many
kids
they
have,
and
things
like
that
and
like
I,
didn't
realize
that
it
was
connected
at
the
time,
but
soon
afterwards,
I
got
really
interested
in
ethereum
and
I
tried
to
build
like
a
t-shirt.
C
Cooperative
I
wanted
I
wanted
to
build
a
way
for
people
to
to
pull
their
money
together,
so
they
could
get
a
bulk
discount
on
purchasing.
Like
cool
and
fun
t-shirts
that
there
would
be
like
designers
and
then
they
would
get
like
a
bold
discount,
so
I'm
like
I,
didn't
realize
that
at
the
time
again,
but
like
now,
when
I
look
back,
I
feel
like
when
I
lost,
Facebook,
I,
sort
of
lost
this
community
and
since
then
I've
been
sort
of
searching
for
one
and
that's
what
kind
of
brought
me
to
ethereum.
B
Yeah
I
can
give
a
story
about
how
I
first
got
involved
in
ethereum.
Albert
was
actually
the
one
who
brought
me
into
the
space
back
in
like
2018
and
I.
Remember,
I
spent
like
two
months
over
the
summer
of
2018,
just
like
trying
to
go
through
and
just
understand
like
what
ethereum
was
and
I
just
remember.
B
Having
so
much
trouble
and
I
was
so
frustrated,
and
you
know
perhaps
this
is
like
this
is
either
an
indictment
of
the
quality
of
educational
resources
at
the
time,
but
I
think
it's
more
an
indictment
of
myself
and
my
my
ability
to
onboard.
So
ever
since
then,
education
has
been
a
really
big
Focus
for
a
lot
of
the
communities.
B
Let
me
just
go
to
the
yellow
paper
and
like
try
to
read
it
like
line
by
line,
and
eventually
we
actually
did
end
up
putting
together
a
series
of
resources
to
summarize
all
of
that
stuff
that
made
its
way
up
to
like
ethereum.org
among
other
places.
So
you
know
one
don't
be
afraid,
but
also
two
right
after
you
have
learned,
a
thing
is
also
I
think
the
best
time
to
to
give
back
and
really
solidify
those
learnings
by
sharing
them
with
other
people.
A
Cool
and
I'll
I
guess
I'll
close
this
out
with
a
much
smaller
sort
of
just
a
cute
story
when,
when
I
first
started
following
ethereum,
I,
mainly
followed
it
through
Reddit
and
I.
Remember
you
know
seeing
this
user,
you
slash
V
buterin
on
Reddit
and
it
it
was
really
interesting.
I
was
like
oh
this,
this
V
buterin
fella,
he
seems
really
smart,
but
also
kind
and
wise
and
for
I.
Think
like
three
or
four
months,
I
literally
was
just
like.
A
Oh
v-booter
is
probably
some
like
60
year
old,
like
Soviet
era
programmer
and
I
was
genuinely
shocked
when
I
discovered
how
old
or
how
young
vitalik
was
at
the
time,
but
yeah.
It's
just
really
funny
and
interesting
to
reflect
back
on
and
in
some
ways
it
ties
into
some
of
these
other
things,
which
is
because,
in
my
case,
I
hadn't
really
bothered
to
go
and
learn
more
about
the
the
person
underneath
it.
A
But
it
was
it's
a
neat
little
snapshot
of
like
hey.
You
have
this
sort
of
idea,
identifier
and
then
they're.
Just
commenting.
They're
sharing
information,
they're
sharing
their
thoughts
and
I
was
like
evaluating
that,
and
only
that
and
drawing
my
own
conclusions
and
I
think
there
are
positive
aspects
of
that
that
we
can
pull
into
some
of
these
like
social
systems
and
other
things
that
we're
we're
trying
to
build.
So
on
that
note,
once
again
thank
you,
vitalik
Berry,
Gob,
sheep
and
all
of
you
for
joining
us
here
today.