Everything EOS Everything EOS Podcast, 11 Sep 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Greatest EOS Interview in the History of the World featuring Dan Larimer 🔥

Description

Everything EOS and CryptoWriter collaborate on the greatest EOS interview ever featuring Block.one CEO, Dan Larimer. This is the most in depth interview Dan has ever done since the launch of EOS.

Timestamps Thanks to EOS Nation in Their Most Recent EOS Hot Sauce
https://eosnation.io/eos-hot-sauce-72/

5:00 Block.one is aligned with EOS and wants to see EOS succeed.

8:00 New Resource Model Aligns Incentives For Long Term Holding

22:45 Tax Regulation Implication of Various Blockchain Financial Products

37:00 Wrapping Bitcoin on EOS & Mutli-Chain MSIGs

50:40 EOS Account Creation Costs – Considerations & Possibilities

56:30 Dan’s Role Within Block.one

59:40 How did Kevin Rose and EOS New York Get Hired for the Public Engagement Team?

1:10:00 Advantages for Projects to Integrate with Public Network like EOS

1:17:00 Why Block.one Had To Distance Themselves from EOS

2:10:40 Public Perceptions Around EOS vs ETH: Identity & Technology

2:17:00 Dan Talks DeFi “Anything promising above 5% APY is extremely risky or unsustainable.”

Dan Larimer
Block.one - CTO

Chaney Moore
Cryptowriter - CBO
www.writer.io

Zack Gall
Everything EOS - Host
LiquidApps.io - Head of Community

*****************
https://www.EverythingEOS.io
https://youtube.com/c/Everything_EOS
http://t.me/Everything_EOS
https://anchor.fm/everythingeos
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/everything-eos/id1434560651?mt=2

A

Morning us podcast, you guys, are in a tr for a treat today. You know why we have the greatest eos interview episode in the history of the world. You know the drill smash that, like button hit the follow button, so you can join us for these future greatest ever episodes, because I guarantee you there are more coming. I'm chaney moore, the cbo of cryptowriter. Please check us out on voice where we try to be the best publication you can find out there on voice today. Follow us follow our writers, it's a great place to be.

A

I'm also here helping zach out today, zach I'm being his co-host. Zach is the head of community at liquid apps he's also a bigger custodian and the host of the longest running.

B

Running podcast, how many years.

A

Has it been now zach uh since march 2018, guys that's two and a half years if you're slow at math? And finally, you know we have a little known employee of the small startup company, uh it's out of blackberry, virginia west virginia out there. uh It's really I'm sorry! If you have I'm sorry, sorry, if you haven't heard about it before uh the company's called block.one block, one b1.

C

A

And he's the cto from what I understand so uh hopefully uh we'll get to learn a little bit more about him today, but welcome guys dan lambert to the show dan. I'm sorry, I can't everybody knows who you are. I can't I can't type it up any more than that he's.

B

The freedom engineer, the newly uh his new title is freedom engineer for anyone who watched the mike mahoney interview. I think we should uh keep calling him that make it stick. um We also have a disclaimer. uh This is dan larimer, the eos community member as our guest. um He is here as a individual he's, not block one. There is a separation there. um This is dan's opinions, dan's thoughts. They do not necessarily represent block one.

B

uh He is uh one piece of a big puzzle there, so I just wanna uh say that up front before we get into this. Thank you. I.

C

B

Think I don't think dan said much what's up thanks for having thanks for being here.

C

Yeah, I know this is great: I'm loving the opportunity to engage with the community. It's been a lot of fun these past couple weeks.

A

Perfect well, thanks for being here, first off uh just want to say as a pet owner, I'm sorry to hear about delilah and frodo lately, it's always always tough to lose a a kid that way. You know it's your pets, but it really is your children to a certain aspect, especially when they're 14 years old, or so you know get a long time.

A

uh I understand I've got an 18 year old maine that wakes me up every morning about 3 30, so they they they grow on. You do you.

B

Have any plans yeah she's? I have a maine, also yeah.

A

Nice saved her on the side of a a bayou. She was out there in a february cold morning and went home with me and never left uh any plans to adopt some new ones. Are you gonna gonna, just.

C

Keep your eyes.

A

C

I'm sure eventually, but uh you know not right away.

A

Sure I understood uh zak's right dan's, here kind of his individual member uh in that regards that, even though uh some of the interest that dan has uh may not necessarily align fully with with b1's road map and priority, so just keep in mind uh from the eos token holder's perspective that that, even though eos is a portion of the treasury, uh the token holders align more so that that also that eos is the public blockchain. It's b1's largest implementation of eosio software.

A

So if eos is viewed in a positive light and as uh as a winner, then it reflects greatly on on b1.

C

I both block one and I are very interested in seeing eos, be successful. Yeah.

B

C

We have a large number of tokens and uh we're very um excited to be able to engage more with the community uh to make it successful together.

A

Great, oh, we appreciate that all.

B

Right all right, this is some softball questions here, janie we everyone's expecting some hard hitting energy energized sure.

A

Okay, are you trying to share your screen, we'll break I'll? Do it right now we'll break in there right now, dan? uh So, honestly, you recently said and we'll just jump right into it. uh You recently replied to somebody zach. You may need to move that footer out of the way. Thank you that uh block one is heavily engaged and contributing to eos development, and we know you you work on eosio constantly and bringing out the software that we we implement.

A

The bps implement working on one bringing staking pools a new resource model by the way, those of you that haven't seen a couple of other episodes here recently that he did uh dan get a great interpretation of what the new resource model will look at. We may not talk about today, but go out there and see it. uh Essentially, you you, you will own your house, but all property is rentable and you can't live in your house anymore. It'll free up a lot of resources- maybe we'll get into that later.

A

But what we want to talk about right now is improving the quality of block producers in your perspective, dan from europe. In your opinion, what would improve the quality of a block producer.

C

Well, the goal of the 21 block producers is to have 21, well-known entities that are known to be independent, not colluding that have reputations that go well beyond just their role in eos, and when you have that you actually will have better field decentralization. You won't have the cartel feeling that is commonly accused in the eos community, but I think that that's really what it's about getting big names to come on and be block producers on the eos network.

A

Okay, so so big names and you know, go ahead.

B

Yeah so big big names like what.

C

I'm not at liberty to say.

B

C

Smirk again, you said the same thing: exciting, exciting developments going on uh we've been talking with lots of companies that are very excited about working with uh eosio and eos mainnet.

B

So, let's, let's get to that tweet, uh I don't even need to pull it on screen.

A

It's still sharing.

B

Oh, uh we are actively collaborating with uh big tech companies and look forward to sharing more information about that.

C

I'm sure everyone in the audience is to to see uh the outcome of all of our hard work, but there's a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes at block one to advance both esio and the us mainnet.

A

Okay, well well, very good! uh We'll take you back to that that tweet then real quick!

A

We talked a little about we'll go to the resource model in the staking pools later then, you say heavily engaged and contribute to eos development.

A

Is there anything that that we may not be aware of yet uh or or some other things that that you can talk about today about eos development that that may not be on our radar or uh what.

C

Else is what else can you say, as you guys are probably aware, you know, uh the team from eos new york has joined block one okay and and we've got an entire group dedicated to um engaging with the community uh a lot of this engagement's happening behind the scenes talking with block producers, building consensus things like that, um but we are being engaged there to make. Those type of things happen to have planned upgrades for various things, to build consensus and and really gather input from what the community is is feeling is necessary.

C

So there's you know it's not just that we produce eosio we're building upgrades for the system contract, the new um resource model that you mentioned earlier, a staking model based on a blog post. I made a while back. uh The idea is to align incentives for long-term holding to encourage people to stake for different periods from months to years. You know a decade even and that power should be allocated proportional to how long you've locked up your eos right to your belief in the future value of um eos.

C

You should get a higher return, so I'm very excited about that resource model. We're doing code development, we're bringing in economists to analyze and explain uh the economic model uh there. But fundamentally, the idea is to build a community and build a community of people that are interested in the long-term success of the platform uh and to reward them for their long-term commitment to the platform uh and that that the staking pools and inflation being divided up allows us to transfer or redistribute if you will um ownership from short-term holders to long-term holders.

C

Now, because the long-term holders are the ones that are building the future they're, the ones that are bringing the value.

B

C

It aligns their interest with better governance decisions so, by having your voting rate go up as you stake more um and you stake longer, uh it will hopefully uh change the perspective from short-term thinking to long-term thinking.

B

Simultaneously,.

C

By the way, the staking pools also can remove power from exchanges voting with users deposits, uh because an exchange can't stake for 10 years if they have to allow deposits at any time.

A

C

So this is also a means of decentralizing control, away from exchanges or people just holding other people's deposits.

B

I kind of remember uh like 2017, maybe early 2018, what was your original vision for? Eos uh was the staking period. Wasn't it longer than three days originally and then it got kind of trimmed down the three days. And how did you decide to make it three days on usio for the unstake? Well,.

C

The taking period on usio today is based on the window during which we're averaging resource usages. It's designed to prevent double spending of cpu and network um to have a long enough window. That's averaged over, so that so the equations work out right.

A

C

That you don't get, uh you can have bursts of stuff right. If you have one, if you can do one transaction every three days, that was sort of like the minimum amount and if we made it a shorter window, you'd have to have more space because you have to be able to do in theory. One every single day uh would be the minimum number of transactions.

C

So by expanding the window uh it allows less frequent usage which allows less staking so it kind of settled on three days there, but the new models, it's more about long-term economic alignment, um instead of just uh resource pool, double spend prevention.

B

And what, where the windows so there's 10-year five-year, there's twelve.

C

B

Exactly exact windows.

C

Don't matter but the idea is, it should kind of be like a treasury market where you've got six months one year, two years, five years. I I think five years in crypto might while being infinity, um but uh you know hopefully bitcoin's been around for 10 years. I I'm expecting eos will still be around five and ten years from now.

A

Great you know going back dan just briefly. Some people are asking the chat. You know uh about the bps again, so I'll go back and just remind people. We had that last episode where uh eva rose uh was talking to us about, and we said what kind of company might be a partner or be a good vp, and uh he mentioned big tech companies uh and cloud service providers.

A

He said tencent, alibaba cloud, amazon, web service, google cloud platform uh and companies along those lines that already have the tech or already have the services could pretty easily jump into the space. So just just for everybody else's community.

C

Yeah, those are exactly the type of people that we're looking for.

A

Perfect, so uh do you wanna just briefly, I mentioned it briefly. Just people have asked and they're still concerned about you've talked about re about it, but uh give us one more time in the short answer about one, how the new resource model frees up the resources that were previously being held by people that were staking it for really for safety purposes in a lot of cases with no intent to use it, and how going to, if you will a rent versus own methodology opens that resource up for everybody.

A

It will actually allow eos to produce more usable transactions in the long run.

C

Yeah well, there's a certain number of transactions that network's capable of doing, and it's just a matter of apportioning them among the users of the platform.

C

The way the original e-source model is it's like a piece of real estate, you own.

C

If you own one percent of the network, you can do one percent of the transactions uh and the question is: how much of the network do you need to own and how many people own the network or own the tokens that aren't really even transacting on it right and what we know is that the majority of people transact periodically right, but not necessarily every single day or every even every three days, and so we have these resources that are not being used. And so how do you apportion those resources?

C

uh So we introduced the rex, which the idea there is that, if you're not planning on using the resources, you can rent them for someone else to use.

C

That's still following the ownership model, but it created a double-sided market because you have supply and demand on one side for people wanting to stake and unstake, and you have supply and demand on the other side, for people wanting to borrow or rent the resources for use and trying to make both of those markets simultaneously resulted in the price, spikes and or it's really excessively cheap to get a whole bunch of resources which resulted in spam for a while.

C

Maybe there's still a little bit of spam going on today, because of it. So the idea is what, if all cpu time on the network was allocated just like the ram on the network, the blockchain will lease cpu time uh at reasonable prices right, not dirt. Bottom basement uh prices now there'd be no more fractional um reserve bonus resources right uh where people say well. If no one else is using it, then I can get a hundred transactions if everyone's using, I can only get one what's going on here.

C

Right, creates that kind of unpredictability, so during congested period, uh is basically you're limited to one, which is what your resources would. uh Your tokens would represent under 100 reserve system. um So by going to this new centralized rental model, all resources 100 reserved everything is rented. So when you rent it, you know that you're going to get so many milliseconds of cpu time um per every three day right. So you have predictability uh in pricing. You have predictability in that your transactions will go through instead of having to worry about.

C

Is it congested or is it not congested you rent it? You got, you need more, you rent more, um but then what we do is we take all the rental proceeds from that and we redistribute them back to all the people who are are staked uh just like the rex does, which means. Let's say you have a large number of tokens. You own one percent of the tokens.

C

You stake them, you're, going to get one percent of all of the rental income from all the people that need cpu, and then you can use that income to rent the resources you actually do need. So, in a sense, you still have free transactions, we've just simplified the economic model so that it's more predictable, reliable and more cost effective.

C

One of the other things that I want to bring up while we're talking about resource pricing and and whatnot is sometimes pricing. Things too cheaply uh can result in spam right.

A

C

Not every transaction necessarily has economic value to a network uh and there are externalities right if, if people are spamming, the network everyone in the world has to process them filter then do something with them. So there's a cost um one way or another, which should probably be recognized.

C

So with a new centralized model, we can kind of set a floor. That says you know what, if you're, not willing to pay on average about one cent or half a cent per transaction. We don't want on the network if your business model, that's just below a certain threshold that can eliminate spam and focus on applications that actually do justify a couple cents on the transaction fee, uh defy applications on ethereum or paying 50 or more per transaction, um when eos can do them all for pennies, uh while.

B

C

Eliminating uh the spam, so I I'm really excited about the new resource model. uh I know that the block producers and the test nets are all trying it out right now. uh The phase from the from the initial one. I think that fixing that resource and model is going to be the single biggest thing to improve the usability of the eos network um and the overall user experience.

B

I agree 100, so cost has never been in it even during the most congested times back last november, when idos first hit, it wasn't necessarily the cost that messed things up. It was the inability to rent from rex and the unpredictability, as you said, if, if you're a business and you're building your business on a public blockchain, you need reliability.

B

You need that 100 up time and you need to be able to estimate your future costs, and I I I love this new concept and I can't wait to see it and, like you said with the price floor, not only does it eliminate spam, but it should actually increase um the proceeds going into rex so currently in rex you're, getting maybe a quarter of a percent interest apr.

B

um But if there's a higher price floor, which would be a variable that I'm assuming the block producers could reach a consensus on that's going to benefit all eos token holders or any other version of eosio. That wants to implement this. It's going to actually that increase in the price floor is going to increase, what's being sent back to the the pooled resources from the.

C

Rex, the biggest difference is if, by intentionally increasing the price, for you still have all the capacity there you're just focusing the capacity on things that are value and then, as the valuable things grow, they don't hit a wall right right now, d5 takes off on ethereum they're, already at capacity prices spike immediately right.

C

We can set a price floor and we can be at that price for for a very, very long time before prices actually have to start spiking, because we get to real congestion, um and so that's a huge, huge difference uh in how things operate.

B

Just bounce out and come back we'll get you back so we're having a little bit of it. We had some issues earlier um yeah. So with the the resource model, I was saying like even at the most expensive, the transactions everywhere on eos. They were still like one one thousandth of an ethereum transaction, and that was at the time when ethereum was much cheaper. You said fifty dollars a transaction, I understaked uh from yfi it paid 123..

B

So it's just insane for a complex transaction with all of these defy applications, a simple transaction. If I'm transferring ethereum or transferring erc20 it's between four to eight dollars, but to do a complex transaction like with the defy applications that use more computation resources, those ones it's insane chin, you're able to talk, not hearing you.

C

Maybe we're the ones that need a reload.

B

um Hopefully, he'll be able to bounce back in um man that threw me off. uh So oh he's back.

A

Welcome here, microphone, you're good, well, dan can't hear me dan. Can I I'll try one more time I think yep dan's gonna leave now.

B

He's gonna pop back in I don't know. What's going on.

B

C

Can't hear you, hopefully you guys can hear me.

B

I could hear you.

A

I don't know exactly the only one.

C

Now we're there we're back all right.

A

Everybody can hear me yep, okay and now I'm gone all right, so so dan, just real quick, will be one, be able to utilize uh the resources or the resource model for its tokens that are still uh locked up. Can it can it can it put uh those indirects.

C

um Well, under the new model, be staking and resources are going to be completely separated, so um you know we currently, I think, we're like eight plus years on ours. So we'd, probably just you know, with communities, approval move it into the eight-year staking pool uh or okay or something so.

B

C

Now we actually are on equal terms as everyone else, um instead of having special uh consideration in the system contract, so that would be um an option there, but that they're still being discussed and negotiated with the community.

A

Okay, so let's, uh let's look on here, uh moving away from from the the pools and and a little bit about cpu, what's going to happen resources, so we we've had some uh information put out to us with regards to uh your interview with ivan on tech, where you talk about tax regulation is key and you go on to say that, and I'm quoting here an entity like a bitfinex could offer a decentralized financial products through a company that already takes into account all the tax regulation and requires kyc, uh and this this ring a bell with me, because brendan just mentioned uh the month earlier in his ron paul interview that b1's financial product has been our development for over 18 months, and that seems to be a long time for a financial project to be developed unless you're trying to be tax compliant around the world and have a tax compliant product.

A

If such a product were to launch on eos, what would be the impact impact for eos? What would happen if, if there was a tax compliant regulation, compliant financial product tied into the is mainnet.

C

Well, having wrapped tokens bitcoin, you know tether dollars, hopefully someday gold and silver on on a network. That's those are primitives that can use by any smart contract to build more complicated things. So I think that um it'd be amazing to get more rap tokens onto a platform like eos, like some people are doing this on ethereum, but you quickly see how it gets congested, but eos can easily handle far more complex, uh c5 applications with far more assets.

C

You know with bancor and all those other things on there, so I think there's a lot of potential there. Now the problem is regardless of whether or not it's centralized or not. um All these different tokens.

C

You have tokens built on top of tokens.

C

You know exchanges that have their own token, that are, then fees are going into buy. Back that token, inflation being used to juice yields in certain places now the entire space, even even the idea of staking into staking pools and then getting your money back over time.

C

There's no tax compliant way of doing it is just completely ambiguous and no amount of lawyers or centralized planning can actually make something tax compliant because the tax laws were all invented in a time where there are very limited financial products right when they're you know back before computers even is when a lot of the financial products were invented and all the regulations assume this this model. They all assume that there's some entity that knows your cost basis and can summarize all your trades and and submit it.

C

But when you're trading across multiple platforms, multiple blockchains and you don't know the entire picture of someone's portfolio, it's impossible to actually calculate capital gains and losses, it's impossible to even clarify whether or not something is income like a dividend or a capital gain uh or, if something's, more of a stock split right, uh because maybe I have more tokens, but it was evenly distributed. So it should be classified as a stock split and some of these inflationary schemes that inflate and then payout could just be viewed as an uneven stock split of some kind.

C

uh All these things are weird combinations that no two tax attorneys are going to agree. They might not even understand it, they might not even be able to interpret it in in the sense of the tax code and that's assuming a single jurisdiction like the united states, but throw it globally and it's a real mess, and I think that the tax, complex complexities associated with every transfer of token, potentially being capital gain and loss needing to be individually reported, basically means you have to give the irs a summary of every financial transaction.

C

You've ever made everyone you've ever done, business with potentially do 1099s and all these other things, it's basically outlawing by regulatory complexity and complete invasion of privacy. That's that's the problem. That's facing the entire cryptocurrency space period.

A

So can we fix that.

B

Yeah, what's the solution.

C

The solution is, uh we've got to reform our society. We have to get back to what I would consider the original purpose of bitcoin way back in 2008 time frame when I was trying to come up with a digital currency before I even discovered bitcoin.

C

The reason was the federal reserve and the fiat banks, central banks of the world. They control our savings, they control all prices, they they can inflate trillions of dollars in a matter of months and with with that, they they own the economy, they determine who wins and who loses, and they devalue your savings.

C

If you want to have freedom, if you want to re-establish your independence, um which I believe is necessary in order to consent, because if you're not independent in your own, mind completely dependent, but you can't consent to a system you're dependent upon, um and if you don't have consent, you don't have legitimacy uh and that kind of undermines the entire concept of democracy.

A

But dan, so the problem I see here, though, is that you go on in that same interview to say that voice faces a lot of the same tax complications and implications right and that's part of the reason we've taken so long. We don't have time to reform society for voice to start up, hopefully by the end of the year right, uh it's a great goal. So the question is: is it a necessity for voice then to be integrated directly with some sort of of of entity that will help users fix that?

A

Or is it just going to be incumbent upon the user to track and know what the value of voice tokens are and to be able to know what they've sold when they received those voice tokens? Because that's exactly what we're getting into you're giving people daily a ubi and you've said that yourself, a token that has value generated just from logging in and then we've talked about before the ability to sell those tokens or an exchange or transfer them to other people and each one of those is going to be potentially a taxable event.

A

And if there's not some way to make it easy for those voice, users to track that we're going to all get a.

C

A

Bit of trouble down the road.

C

Well, that's one of the challenges like when you're trying to build a product within a professional manner for the mass market like block one.

C

Is you can't release something that's going to destroy someone's taxes, that's going to cause them to get in trouble with the irs right, no one's going to want to use a product that they think I log into this I'm going to have the irs knocking on my door and so there's a exactly to um solve that problem for the end user to make it so that they know that I'm safe at the end of the day.

C

If I do owe taxes, it's all calculated for me, I'm given a form- and I just file it- there's no ambiguity.

C

So in the united states it might mean that you know we. We have to consider lots of different options on on how to address this particular problem, and it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, the united states being one of the most complicated, um but it might mean that you can do certain things on a platform uh tax-free. But as soon as you want to get access transferability, now you got a kyc and you gotta pay taxes um at a certain point and solving those problems right. People always think about the sec, but that's just one.

C

We got to solve it on the on the irs perspective and that's why voice is currently tokens. Have no value and they're going to be reset in the future, because, right now you can. We can kind of play with the mechanics of the system, but we're not creating tax consequences for the users and that's actually- um uh and we also want to have one platform that works globally right. We don't want to have to have uh one set of rules for us people on another set of rules for non-us people and so the whole.

B

C

Of slows down to the slowest most difficult jurisdictions uh in the world um and.

B

We're tackling those problems.

C

uh And the end result might be that. Well, if you're in the u.s, you don't get tokens that have any value because tax law and sec, but if you're outside the u.s, maybe the tokens can be transferable and have value. Those are the types of things that the voice executive, team and lawyers are are dealing with, and so I can talk all day about how economics should work. Token center should be aligned. We.

A

Might let you one day.

C

But uh just just because you can describe a system doesn't mean the tax law and regulations are compatible with the system. Okay- and that's that's the challenge, every business in the space faces. uh It's why you know facebook and twitter and reddit they're gonna have similar problems if they try to create tokens and distribute them to users and and there's just secondary markets where they have value yeah. So.

A

I'm going back and zach may be able to pull it up here to some of your your telegram comments back from shortly after after b1 june, uh and and this is in relation to voice zach, can you share my screen? I don't know if you want.

B

To try to share it again, I'm not seeing it as this.

A

Maybe maybe it won't come out, but I'll give it one more shot. So uh I'll, just I'll just read here just some of these real quick, um you got it great.

A

So, just looking through some of these very know about kyc, you talk about actively uh engaging in regulars. Now it's not sharing, so I don't see it on mine.

B

A

Right so it says uh it's our desire, so we'll be able to be able to buy voice tokens. It's our desire, subject to regulations. You just mentioned that if voice tokens are transportable between users, what would the use case be guessing you're, going to say, regulated exchanges may be may be supported where regulations permit, uh and you talk about an exchange may pay some fee to eos token holders.

A

What what were you envisioning back in- and this was in june july of last year uh at the time for voice a voiced, exchange and and how that would all all piece together or is it? Has it changed since then?.

C

Things are rapidly changing uh as we get more in engagement with the regulators, both directly with us and the regulators, engaging with other companies in the space and as yeah. So I don't remember exactly where we were at the time that those comments went out, but uh we've definitely been considering that's one of the challenges we have with actually talking about things. So much is, is that we say well. We want to do x, y and z, because.

A

We start moving.

C

Down that path- and we we run into this or that regulation.

A

Speaking of wanting to do x, y and z, you mentioned last week again, uh you you still uh would like to give us accounts to voice token holders, but you got to make sure that it's not an attack vector- and I assume you've been an attack vector on b1's ram and their resources. Is that right.

C

Correct correct, so we are actively pursuing ways of of getting that done, um because so we've got a number of ways that there's just so many options out there. Everything from supporting people like grey mask uh with with their wallets too giving.

A

Everyone voice.

C

A free eos account, um you know where we're having certain challenges with verifying the uniqueness of people, kyc providers there's they're gained, um and so that's not a black and white way of of eliminating as soon as you tie financial benefit or anything to something people find ways through the system. So now we've we're getting better and we've got more complex technologies to eliminate or minimize fraud. In the background, but uh yeah we are one of the reasons we didn't release.

C

A eos wallet directly is because we couldn't create accounts uh for users and we wanted to have that user experience, um but as as our technologies behind the scenes are advancing, we'll, hopefully be able to get the onboarding challenge uh largely resolved.

B

So great I wanna backtrack because we skipped over it. We we wanted to talk about wrapped bitcoin dan brought it up briefly a few minutes ago. But how do you envision uh wrapped btc? So everyone knows block one uh from. I think one of the s I forget. I think it was a shareholder uh report that got leaked uh 140, 000 bitcoin does block one, have any plans to tokenize that bitcoin and if so, uh what means or methods are you guys investigating to do that and is there a time frame?

B

C

Loaded question: we have, we have big plans for those bitcoin and eos um how those things relate now. You're, just gonna have to wait and see. uh News is coming.

A

Well, let's, let's speculate you jumped ahead. Zach come on you're killing me here, man.

B

A

Share the screen: again: let's go down here to see what uh what we're looking at all right. Let me get way way down here to the bottom of the agenda. Zach, I'm joking, I'm getting in hell.

A

um So you know, brandon has talked a lot about about what can be gained, what can be gained by wrapping eos and wrapping btc and ethereum onto uh eos. So you know this is great. We all agree that it could be a secondary scaling solution to both those platforms. Heck you, you were able to uh easily do the uh uh the whole ethereum chain into eos without a lot of problem, good job, saeed winning that uh that reward.

A

But here's a here's, a very telling quote- and I like this one d1- has begun: exploring multi-chain mining strategies to build proficiencies that we see is important to long-term ecosystem interoperability. You know guys I mean. Are we talking about ibc here dan ivc between eos bitcoin and ethereum right?

A

uh We manage our treasuries to maximize the firepower that we have for our strategic goals. For us, mining, btc and ethereum strengthens our returns portfolios, while starting to play a role in the governance and evolution of those platforms.

A

There's one more quote here that I'll go back up to v1 has been exploring multi-chain mining strategy. We talked about that and tequila comes in and says they want eos to be able to seamlessly communicate between chains and to be used of the scaling solution and brennan bloomer gives a little little okay symbol there.

A

So that tells us a lot right there, whether you can talk about today or not that that that uh definitely b1 has some plans and has really been kind of a vocal on twitter, without giving any uh specifics about that that how that would work, but just just give me an example outside of b1 what would make for a trusted rap token?

A

How would how would third parties feel comfortable enough to trust any entity enough to wrap a significant portion of their value onto eos as a second layer scaling solution to then use that scaling solution.

C

Right at the end of the day, all everything's multi-sig right, it's hurdles all the way down. Multi-Sig all the way down. um The eos block reduction is multi-sig of 21 block producers. Right bitcoin is multi-sig of uh three mining pools, ethereum's, multi-sig or three mining pools.

C

um So if you control um hash power on bitcoin ethereum and get those mining tools to cooperate with validating the eos blockchain and the eos blockchain can directly validate the light headers of bitcoin and ethereum. Now uh you can directly verify the multisig such that. Even if someone stole the keys and signed the transaction to transfer the funds in custody, the bitcoin miners would reject it because they know hey. That's the custody wallet for the eos beats wrapped btc and the eos consensus algorithm and the 21 block producers didn't authorize that particular transaction.

C

So we don't care what signatures are on it, um but even so you can implement bitcoin uh with 15 uh nfm by up to 15 signatures on a particular bitcoin address, so uh you can actually have more decentralization in the oracle that holds the bitcoin, then the the private key entities, then you can have on the bitcoin mining itself.

C

So the custody can be more secure than the hash power. It can be more decentralized than the hash power of bitcoin. So one of the things that we're working on is a smart contract and we've already implemented. It um is the ability to verify bitcoin block headers, verify bitcoin transactions inside an eos contract so that at least on the receiving side you can generate the positive addresses you can have completely deterministic management of bitcoin and all the addresses- and you can even say well.

C

This is a withdrawal transaction and all you need is the oracles to sign the transaction and broadcast it. So now you have 15 different people, maybe trusted organizations like major tech companies or financial institutions or well-known uh accountant firms.

C

I I don't know what kind of entities would could be involved here, but the idea is that, with 15 of these entities, all running deterministic reaching consensus both that a bitcoin deposit has come in that you can't forge it, because it's validating with like clients uh all the bitcoin transactions it can reach consensus on when bitcoin needs to come out and exactly what transactions should be signed.

C

Now now you can have a very secure wrapped token, that is more decentralized than bitcoin itself in terms of the number of parties required to validate the withdrawal and deposit, and I think that that type of rap token on es could be um be used as bitcoin uh people like well. Why? Why go back to the bitcoin network, which is slow? um You know with high fees when I can just transfer instantly um the rapid client ideas and anytime I need to get back. I can.

C

I can go back if I need to, but I think at the end of the day, people tend to migrate where it's easy and avoid the fees.

B

You mentioned oracles oracles, aren't something native to eosio. What what's your vision for for oracles, running on on eosio.

C

Well, oracle is just anyone who's broadcasting outside information into the blockchain, so an oracle could be broadcasting bitcoin block headers in the bitcoin transactions that are being verified. um So that's so that's a role of an oracle. We don't even have to trust the oracle, because the light client logic is doing it. So anyone who can submit it uh can submit the data. So that's that's one type of oracle, but uh all it is is um a data being published and eos is designed for oracle's.

C

That's why contracts can read the state of other contracts, so you can broadcast, um say a price feed for a defy application and one application you publish the price fee. It has no idea what other contracts are using it and then some other prediction market out there can rely on that oracle for the data without the oracle being liable for all the different use cases, because all they're involved in is publishing data which is completely legal, and so now you can have prediction markets based on data coming from oracle.

C

So that's what everpedia guys are are up to is really pursuing the prediction market realm, and so, if you have a source of truth upon which people have reached consensus, which is sufficiently decentralized now, you can really tie that into all kinds of different uh financial applications, ignoring all the complexities of tax law and security law.

A

Thanks for that, that's so it's exciting.

B

So I guess getting uh having the top 21 block producers controlling m sig for bitcoins, a no-brainer bitcoins, the most widely known cryptocurrency on the market, even ethereum, but what about for, like smaller tokens like erc20s, so liquor apps, we just launched an ibc bridge between ethereum and eos. uh It's on the test nets and part of the the value that that brings. Is that any token could be wrapped, and you choose your level of decentralization. You choose how many nodes you want to be on the multisig to wrap those tokens and send them over.

B

um Is your vision of these rap tokens so outside of bitcoin outside of ethereum and the really big tokens? uh Do you envision the top 21, also controlling the m6 for rap tokens for.

C

I don't think the top smaller tokens. Sorry, I don't think these top 21 should control the instincts for the bitcoin. uh I think that that just creates more centralization. I think you share different multisig groups with for each one and they should be well known and relatively stable, uh because every time you change or update multi-stake on bitcoin, you got to transfer all the utxos.

C

So if you, if you're voting people in and out constantly you don't really know who holds the money and um and it creates a different attack vector. So you want well-known, reputable diverse, geopolitically, diverse.

C

People in charge of running those nodes, uh that would be the ideal situation, uh and it's not that shouldn't be subject to governance, to change who those people are because if they want to change it, then they can vote amongst themselves to replace one member with a new member, not leaving it up to token holders, because that just invites people to uh transfer it.

A

Zach I've got on my screen here, just going back, it's it's funny, because this is going back to early 2019 and it's still exactly almost exactly what what dan is saying- and these are dan's comments. You know- may 22nd 2019.

A

You can see here where uh he's already saying that eosio can automate the btc blockheader deposit, validation, he's saying all these things, and- and here we are a year 16 months later and it sounds like we may be just a little bit closer to making that happen. So uh we're excited dan. We hope to see that out there I know I would like to be able to uh to be able to move uh eth and and btc in a manner that's uh cheap and quick and efficient.

A

So I look forward to just quick question there tell me about the fees. How would you do that on eos? Let's say you want to do that on eos. You would have to have an eos account, or could you do that through a third party and uh and do it some other validation, whether you pay a maybe once sat removing a transaction or some set fee and who would get that fee.

C

All right, first of all, there's a way of doing token, transfers on eos that um don't require you to have accounts in advance. uh You can basically pay to any public key address and then sign with that key to move the funds and it'll work.

C

Just like bitcoin and just like bitcoin you'd have a dust amount, so you can't send below a certain amount, but just by the fact that you've got tokens there, it can reserve the ram and then it frees the ram and tokens go off and you just need enough ram for the tokens which avoids the entire need to create accounts and all those other things.

C

It works well for token transfers uh for people who are familiar with the bitcoin paradigm, uh and so we can actually completely model the entire bitcoin utxon and scripting environment inside of an eos contract. So everyone who knows how those things operate and they've got existing technologies.

C

They could transfer eos and all you need is an oracle or some service provider to broadcast that transaction to pay the cpu cost. One of the things that we're really excited about is contract pays, which is the ability to have a smart contract that accepts the cpu charges on behalf of users, and it will do that by inspecting the transaction, making sure that, yes, this is a.

C

There are no other actions that are being piggybacked on it and therefore you can uh charge the contract for the cpu time instead of users having to have resources, and I think the paradigm of users having resources having to worry about ram or having to worry about cpu.

C

It was never even the intent. The intent was always the app developers would get the resources and provide it. um And there were, I guess, some back and forth decisions there. They didn't quite get it right on on the first initial release of eosio, but now we've got a really clear view and a path forward. So going forward things like oracles for broadcasting bitcoin, anyone can do it. They don't have any resources to do it, because the deposit contract can broad process.

C

It you'll be able to transfer tokens um without having to have any resources staked, because the token contract will take a fee.

B

C

To reserve the ram to cover the cost and then there'll just be a transaction fee based system which transaction fees work great for value transfer. They don't work great for voting or posting or other things, so you need both, um but it's really gonna be out of the application development.

A

Bitcoin transfers for a saturday just a few sets at most. I love it.

B

A

B

Too, because there's a value to that transfers and there's also a value to the cpu required to make the transfer. So as long as the tr, the uh transaction fee is higher than the cost of the cpu. Then it covers itself. It's like.

C

Yeah stop the cpu and the cost of the ram to reserve the receiving deposit address. But yes,.

A

You got to pay there. Do you have any more on this act? Go back. We got a couple more voice questions before we keep going.

B

Well, I have a question about um the cost of accounts, so whenever ram price, when the rambo stuff was going on and ram prices were sky high, the eos price was really high. What's what's the solution to account creation costs? Because that's another point of friction, I see it every day whenever we're bringing in new users which we're starting to see more of recently, which is great, there's, always an onboarding issue and there's great wallets like wombat wallet. I I think that's a great solution where they give you the account for free.

B

They don't let you export the keys until you pay for it. What is in your mind, the solution to the account creation problem of friction that eos and eos io chains have.

C

Well, it's the same problem: every company in the world has they've got database and server space and users sign up and they consume it if they can't prevent, duplicates uh yeah the people take all the candy out of the candy jar right. It's gonna cost you lots of money, you're not actually supporting users, and you can be attacked by people that just want to consume your resources, so every business out there already has to have some means of doing that in a decentralized system.

C

The way we solve that is well. Tokens are scarce. There is a cost for these resources. Resources are scarce and we kind of leave up to the individual businesses. The things that we can do to bring down the costs are eliminate the the need for users to have ram uh for their own storage, which can create just a bare minimum overhead for the account itself, which needs to store things like their keys and their permissions, and things like that.

C

But does it need to store other things like how much you know, contracts like token balances and things like that? Wouldn't it be stored on the user's side to be stored on the on the app side um that those things can bring the cost down. The other thing is increase supply right now, we're rationing.

C

uh You know a couple hundred gigabytes, you know whatever can fit in ram, but one of the things we're working on is disk based backing for the state and with that we can have much larger data sets so idle accounts don't cost us anything other than disk face which is basically infinite these days um compared to everything else. So that's those two things will reduce the account costs.

C

um Another aspect of accounts is because you have enough token stakes, so you can actually do something, but if once you get a contract pays model or app pays then accounts don't need tokens for that either, which can reduce the size of the account and the cost of creating the account and then. Lastly, once you have applications, whether it's defy or um uh social media or whatnot, if people are willing to pay 50 to. I saw someone to comment two hundred dollars for an ethereum d5 transaction.

C

The cost of an eos account is insignificant. Next to that right, so anyone who's doing real business in real value account. Creation costs are not a problem. uh It's only the people that want to create lots of accounts for spam, or they want to onboard lots of users or have no checks on on things, quality control.

C

So to speak, um we need we need the account creation costs from a spam prevention. Quality control perspective. Now it's just a matter of finding the business cases that justify the signup and businesses should be paying for their users right people saying that no user wants to pay two dollars to try out my my project. I need a free account. No, you want a free account. Do it give them a temporary account that they can use as guests right?

C

Have a hundred guest accounts that anyone who they can all share and rotate the guest accounts, but giving them permanent accounts uh they're either generating revenue for you, in which case you pay the two dollars? It's like free shipping. uh You know it's like the money. You spend advertising to get your customers there right, there's always a cost of customer acquisition.

C

um So it's it's really about coming up with better business models that justify the user acquisition cost uh than it is about making it so that a billion people can sign up because there's actually not enough ram for a billion people to sign up so which billion people get to sign up.

A

So speaking of a billion people signing up um going real quickly back to voice. uh There was a note in the telegram channel here here recently that kevin rose and we'll talk about the pbe in just a bit uh was out and mentioning just happened to casually mention. He spoke to death radar this morning and he was talking about user fees and the only reason I can think of for a member of v1 pde team to go out and speak to that radar is to make sure that voice is included uh in in-depth radar's feed.

A

Do you think that that radar would honestly be blunt here care about a private chain, uh even if it really has users, uh and would they consider those users of the dap if it's on a privately hosted network.

C

I can't speak to why they're talking adapt radar besides, okay, um just trying to make sure that we get feedback from the community about the use cases for esio to make sure we support them, we're not breaking compatibility that we can help them scale. Things like that. um You know the that team and the voice team are two completely separate teams, so uh I I wouldn't necessarily connect anything there. So.

B

Before the call was a big company.

C

I didn't even know they were talking to them so.

B

uh Before the call you kind of brought up how voice has their own ceo and like the separations and how you're not the one pulling the strings at voice at this point, you're advising you want to kind of recap what you said before you started the live stream.

C

Yeah at block one we've got a lot of projects going on. uh You know stuff we're doing to support eos and he has mainnet esio stuff that we're doing for private enterprise blockchains based on esio and there and there's lots of esvc companies out there that we're supporting and and we've got voice and we've spun voice out under very competent, ceo. uh You know, former chief digital officer, forbes yeah, you know, salah, is a very talented.

C

Individual and voice is an autonomous organization uh and my role at block one is to go and advise and direct and um each of these business units, but uh in order to scale and decentralize and even internally, to block one uh we need to delegate uh decision making uh to to different parties.

C

So uh I focus on on the technology on the blockchain and uh the freedom consciousness of of the organization, um but man there's there's so much going on within block one that if I try to keep up with it all I wouldn't be able to get anything else done it's. It's amazing.

B

Let's get into that, the company is huge. So, as last I checked it's over 300 employees. I noticed uh you guys have opened up a singapore office, so that means the ones I know over. Blacksburg singapore, washington dc and hong kong is- is that all of them currently.

C

um I believe we've got some people.

B

C

B

London also, um so what what's? What? What's the experience like uh with bringing on a team like that size? You talked about uh previously how you built steam, with like four people and now you're running a company of 300 plus. What's what have the challenges been for scaling a business to the size that block one has become? Is it like more than a handful.

C

It's a completely different skill set uh to manage uh 300 people, I'm not a I'm, not a manager. uh That's not my strength. My strength is is design and systems and things like that, so a small team. Where everyone's talking uh you know, I can coordinate that everyone's wearing multiple hats, that's great. As we get to larger and larger teams. My role is more of an architect than a manager, so uh learning how to cooperate with other people who are managers right. We hire we bring in the best talented managers.

B

C

And people out there.

B

C

We got, we've got product owners like like mark woods, who's amazing. uh You.

B

Guys shout out mark woods, mark woods has been on everything yes before before he uh got got chained up when he got uh hired by block one. uh I get the social media policies and everything like that. um You guys have hired an amazing some of the people. I know that have been hired from the community are some of the most talented people. I've ever met um and one of those teams is kevin, rose and rick and the whole eos new york team. How did that come to fruition like who came to? Who?

B

First and what was the process like of saying? We want to build this public blockchain engagement, team, eos new york has already basically molded this role in their first year and a half as a block producer. uh What was that process and decision making like and and what led to the decision.

C

Well, they were already doing such a great job, engaging with the community, organizing making things happen and we needed to grow quickly. So it's really a matter of. Do we try to hire some new people? They have no idea what's going on in the community and bring them in to do this.

C

They were the best people for for the job they were available, uh and so I'm really excited to work with them, because they can devote like full time to uh engaging with the community tracking everything that's going on within block one so uh yeah when you grow from a small company of um you know five to ten people.

C

Everyone knows what's going on and about everything, but when you go to 300, spread across the globe very different time zones and you're in vastly different business areas, everything from the eosvc team who's evaluating investing in projects to the voice team, which is tackling all the issues around social media to the enterprise team, which is addressing the unique uh considerations for enterprise blockchain.

B

C

One of the things that we're working on there is faster finality uh to allow half-second confirmations finality for enterprise use cases and also better validation for block producers on eos, so they can hand off between their redundant back off backup nodes more efficiently. So that's those are some of the things we're doing there, but yeah the structure of managing a team like this is a vastly different skill set.

C

I'm glad that I have an opportunity to be with block one to advise such an amazing team on on technology and to really focus on on the real purpose. Like you know what I live and breathe, I've had the same mission: to create free market solutions for securing life, liberty and property from bitshares through steemit onto eos and into the future right. I've got that's my goal and everything we're doing whether it's its voice or some other projects that we'll be able to unwrap later this year. Hopefully.

A

You heard it guys later this year.

B

Yep we got a, we got a road map. Finally,.

C

So there's there's things that are happening, um they're all geared toward one way or another, creating that freedom, uh and so you know I started with the idea that we need. I wanted independence for myself, but you can't have independence from one person, because you.

B

C

Maybe you want to go live alone in the woods and that's a very low standard living, but what you really want is a community and you want your community to have independence, uh and that's why I got into bitcoin, because bitcoin and cryptocurrency gives you independence over your economy, over your money, money being the most fundamental aspect of independence for a community uh and if you're, not using gold or silver.

C

The next best thing is, is cryptocurrency um and one of the things I think the entire cryptocurrency space has lost sight of is: are we building independence for our community or are we tracing capital gains in uh federal reserve notes? Right? uh To what extent do we view ourselves as community members trying to set up a parallel independent system outside of what's there? So we no longer depend upon exchanges to go into fiat because the ideal end game in my mind, is we don't need exchanges to fiat anymore?

C

We've got farmers producing food. We've got power, companies got our own satellites providing internet. uh You know we just the more independent. We can make our communities the more. We can opt out of the systems of the world that are enslaving, us.

A

B

The enterprise uh things you mentioned uh back in january, uh you gave the speech at capitol hill. I was there in washington dc and you talked about how your vision is for eosio to essentially replace sql. Like databases, uh I'm sure that's still your vision. But where are you guys at in that and how far out of a timeline? Do you see it so to replace something like uh relational databases like sql, like that? What's your timeline on that in your vision, for that it's got to.

C

B

Super long term, I'm assuming.

C

Well, it's all a matter of just tooling it already. You know, esi is already a database, there's already an ability to query it. One of the things that I've come to better understand is an event. Sourcing model event. Sourcing has been used for decades. It's nothing new, but if you take the concepts from event, sourcing combine them with the concepts of blockchain.

C

The smart contract is just the it's. The gatekeeper make sure that this this next event is the a legitimate um all the preconditions are are valid, but then it gets passed on to any other number of systems on the back end, that can process that event and create state, whether it's tracking shopping, cart, state or social media state, and you can have infinite number of databases derived from the same events. Right blockchain is just the log of user actions, user intention, which can be interpreted an infinite number of ways.

C

So we already have the tools there, one of the tools that we are using internally, which you can probably find it on github.

C

We created something that processes all of the uh events coming out of nodeos uh and allows you to run extra logic uh with a bigger database, backed by rocksdb. We call it rodeos read only nodeos, it's a way of reading from nodeos and creating additional derived state and then allowing you to query it with a graphql like interface so um and we've built all that and we've been using it for internal projects and we've been polishing it up, but it takes a while to get it there.

C

But in the end, I think a graphql like interface with custom databases that can be mirrored and shorted and all those other things are going to be what allows esio to scale. And then you have multiple different blockchains that can be processing different, independent sets that are feeding this whole event source model.

C

So I think we have already had the technology uh and the design patterns like. I think one of the things that I realized early on when I got into bitcoin everyone's trying to figure out what is this bitcoin thing? What are the economics? Why does it have value all these different things?

C

Thinking that it's something new and I said well, no, there's nothing new here, uh except maybe a little bit of technological innovation. It's all just old things being rehashed.

C

Bitcoins are just like shares in a company and and mining rewards, just like issuing new shares and paying it to people to to mine a block right to expend the energy to do so, and then delegated proof of stake is nothing more than taking old models about how shareholders elect directors to to run things um and how inflation is just how you raise capital to fund uh fun projects uh and all those different things, they're, just old ideas that need to be reinterpreted or laid on top of the blockchain to to see how things operate, and so the latest realization is what event sourcing is an old idea, but layered on the blockchain creates very, very powerful.

C

uh You can take all the lessons learned, all the design models and patterns from the past and now apply it to blockchain, to to scale it uh and to accelerate development, uh and so with blockchain.

C

The main innovations of blockchain I see are that every user's got a public key, so the keys are in the hands of the user, and the database has the option of being public, which means that people can fork the database uh and they can um verify it for themselves.

C

That's that's the majority of the innovation on bitcoin and then everything else is it's just applying all design patterns. On top of that to scale.

B

With the enterprise adoption um a lot of uh debate online, uh so the difference between eosio and eo, so eosio is the software. Eos is one implementation of the software. It's the largest uh most valuable public network running the eosio software. um Is there any tie-in at all, with an enterprise pack suite of services that you guys are building for specifically for enterprise? Is there any tie-in that would require a public network and what role would the public network have.

C

What is a public network, but a private network operated by different people? The only difference is that it's it's public and it's transparent. It's got tokens that are valued so there's, I guess more proof of stake that can be lost there, but any company has their own reputation on the line. Any company can take their private blockchain and make it public make it forkable uh and so forth. The main reason to interact with eos mainnet is to get access to tokens.

C

If you got tokens on on your private chain or you want oracles, you want to move information back and forth. It's a great way to gain access to it. So, for example, imagine if you could transfer your voice tokens to the eos mainnet now every exchange in the world, that's integrated with eos mainnet can easily list voice without having to integrate another private chain into their system right.

C

So there's values in integrating with a public open system like eos, because it's already gone and gotten all those connections and that's the biggest value that eos has is the economics of having one of the most liquid. I think it's the third most liquid token out there um and it's got the ability to have all kinds of smart contracts. You can write smart contracts on the eos magnet that will validate the light headers from your private chain uh and vice versa. So there's all kinds of things that you can.

C

uh I guess economic connectivity uh between mainnet and your private network that it's the same reason people choose to integrate with facebook and medium and whatnot. Is you immediately get a wide network uh effect? um And so I see that that's where businesses like whether it's voice or other products could benefit from integrating with eos mainnet.

C

The company integrates one time with eos and eos is already integrated with everything else.

A

Great great answer I like that, so along those lines and we'll talk about you, know b1, maybe maybe marketing that to enterprise. But you know: we've heard the term marketing before and when the time comes, market marketing will be beyond anything seen in crypto, but before you can market, you need to have an onboard strategy that can convert users and a service that can retain them. Everybody always remembers that.

A

First part, everybody is looking for marketing that will be beyond anything seeing in crypto, but everybody just conveniently forgets the back end of that quote, which is again before you can mark it. You need an onboard strategy that can convert users and a service that can retain them is voice. That service is voice. What we're waiting for! Do we see marketing likes unseen before or are you talking about? What exactly were your thoughts here and and what is your expectation or timeline? You think that we might start seeing some marketing.

C

Well, that's uh another whole department within block one.

A

C

In charge of the marketing timeline.

B

C

Speak to the uh let's speak to the first or the middle part of that I guess um one of the things with steemit steam was incredibly successful. uh People came they signed up. It was really easy. They got tokens, it was going viral, but people weren't able to stick around.

C

So it's like having a leaky bucket and if you start marketing, and even if you have very high success rate on converting people into signing up, if you don't have a high retention rate, because the value is not there to retain the users, then then the whole thing is for naught right. um In fact, you might even burn the first impression you only get make a first impression one time.

C

So uh I understand the the desire of everyone to see go market it. So people buy the token, and I can sell it to someone else at a higher price than I paid. But that's that's uh selfish thinking, just thinking uh how can I make money which is really saying? How can I get out by getting someone else to come in? That's ponzi, thinking right, that's not what we want to build a community on. Do you want to be part of a community?

C

That's just trying to figure out how to get you in to boost their share price, so they can make money you want to. We join these blockchain communities for independence, for a greater cause and token price should almost be irrelevant if you're building the cause, because if the cause succeeds then eventually you'll get there, um and so that means building a really solid foundation, because if you don't have a solid foundation, you sprout up and then you find out that you can't scale. The experience is terrible.

C

You know transaction fees go to 200 per transaction and then it ends up crashing eventually, when people realize that it's not sustainable or something else comes along. So you got to be smart about how you apply your money. There's other people out there that do all kinds of gimmicky marketing campaigns spending millions of dollars for dinners with famous people.

C

These types of things are not being uh good stewards of the resources that they have. uh You know the only way you can make money on that type of activity is to play the pump and dump game where you buy in spend a bunch of advertising dump it on people yeah you made money, but otherwise you you spend money, the money's gone and you didn't get a return for for the money spent, which is, is poor, uses of money.

C

So I think that's one of the things that separates block one from a lot of the other companies out there is we're keeping our powder dry, we're investing slowly and methodologically we're playing the long game. This is the tortoise and the hare, and I know everyone likes to see you know 100 returns year over year, but you have to ask yourself: what's the end game there? What happens when your cryptocurrency gets to a trillion dollar market cap and there's no more greater fools to come in right? If.

B

C

Built up a real sustainable economy, doing real things then just pumping the price is. Is uh it's not helping anyone you're just setting everyone up for massive failure.

A

So that's a good good segue into the next topic and really really talking a little bit about community here. uh You know: there's there's been a little bit of of a dichotomy here uh lately between what b1, maybe is the caesars community, and what what the eos mainnet supporters saw in the community uh going back to 2019.

A

You know you were engaged in telegram. Brenda was engaged in telegram. We had uh b1 june. uh There was a lot of sharing of information. There was a really a whole lot of communication, hundreds or thousands of messages between you and brendan and the community on telegram uh and and then I hate to say it was almost like a light switch uh you both left telegram deciding that were impersonators uh as the primary reason.

A

But to be honest with you, then you went on twitter, where there are still an issue with the impersonators they're still prevalent, um and then you know there was a switch where, for the longest time dan it was, it was really. It felt like eosio was much much greater and much more talked about, which is fine. We don't be one who creates cosio and it is doing a lot of great things with it, but it was a shift. It was a change in the communication and it really to be blunt. It changed it it.

A

The community felt like they got a cold shoulder and a lot of the community has reciprocated in kind with, with with a distrust for for v1 and its intentions to to the eos. Mainnet, we've seen a shift here recently a little bit of change, uh with more engagement with the pve with you coming on and doing a lot of interviews and and eos hashtags, and we appreciate that so can we.

C

A

Us and you're voting. Can you give us a little bit? What happened dan? What really that's it.

C

What happened well, the challenge we we face with eos uh and the entire project is uh we told the the world that we're not going to launch a chain? The community needs to launch the chain uh and from you know, we went through a period of time dealing with regulators where we had to be extra careful not to create confusion about whether or not eos mainnet is block one or the communities right.

C

We really needed to establish over a period of years that the community is the one responsible for the network, that's to protect us and the community right, and so I think that that's been firmly established now that we are just one member of the community uh that the community is responsible for what is happening on the network right. There's lots of different esio chains out there that have implemented different governance, different resource, even slightly tweaked, to the consensus algorithm, but they are all leveraging the technology we built.

C

But now that it's been established, a lot of the regulatory stuff is behind us. We are able to engage as a community member with um and and to contribute directly, because we have a strong interest in seeing the success of of eos, whether we like it or not. Our reputation is tied up uh in eos to success, uh but it's actually a real challenge for us, because we don't control eos eos is decentralized. Eos is not run by block one, um so we have to collaborate to negotiate, persuade uh get votes just like everyone else.

C

We can't unilaterally change all the block producers, um like some other companies, have happen like we did a really good job of decentralizing eos, and now we get to participate as a community member um and that I think it's a it was a painful process, but ultimately was for the best interest of of the decentralization of eos uh and the overall protecting everyone from the regulatory concerns involved.

B

A

I can appreciate that.

B

um Correct me, if I'm wrong, but um the reason that you left bit shares or you started steam was partly because kind of like the funding dried up with the community funding for bitshares.

B

um We have a lot of people that were here from the main that launched that started building on eos and they were reliant on a token appreciation to kind of grow their business model um prior to the main that launch, we were prom, not promised, but we were told that there would be a wps, for example, which never happened still to this day. um What uh how.

C

Is wps means worker proposal system just to make sure that I'm understanding you correctly? Yes,.

B

C

And the reason why uh I pulled on it um is because we don't have a governance process to prevent it from being gained um yeah, particularly, as you know, hundreds and millions of dollars and billions of dollars potentially starts flowing out of these systems and you've got people that will gain the rules game.

C

The voting, if it's gainable, it's actually more of a liability than an asset, and that is the biggest challenge is how do we hold people accountable, particularly because you know originally, I have a bigger vision of a community, a community that has is basically a peace treaty. It's got a constitution, it's got a dispute resolution system built into it. It can handle the subjective stuff and there's there's this kind of community integrity on there.

C

But to create that system, you need to have quality control who can come into the community and kicking people out of the community?

C

uh You can't just allow anyone to buy their way in and then control the the community uh so to speak or or it will be taken advantage of for profit, uh which you know when we, when we auctioned off all the eos to the initial distribution, the um it was bought by anyone in the world that could um know that had access um and that created a a community of people that owned eos and they got to set their own direction.

C

And so the eos community decided a code is law stance, not everyone who who purchased was bought into the premise of a constitution of a new society where we can actually help protect our rights outside the blockchain, as well as on the blockchain right. It's it was a. It was a bigger vision that I had. The community wasn't ready for it. The tokens weren't held by the same people that shared that philosophy, and so that's why uh you know I propose code is law.

C

We can build the higher level governance structures on top of a platform of code, is law, and- and that's where we are now is- we've got a platform of code is law and in order to implement a worker proposal system, we've got to figure out an.

A

C

Solution: we've got to figure out governance processes, dispute resolution processes uh and get people aligned on something. That's that's bigger. You have to be aligned on what the goal is right. How do we even decide um what the purpose of the eos network is? If you're going to spend community money on x, it's there has to be some mission or higher purpose. Is it making the network more independent? Are we improving liquidity?

C

Is it or is it the goal just to uh pump advertising in a some kind of advertising scheme and who judges the people who take the money and uh uh did they follow through and what is the accountability? Those are all major challenges with a worker proposal.

B

System and so that's why brendan and I.

C

Came out and said, you know what it's under the current environment, it's too risky to introduce uh such a system, and now, with you know, with the staking we've kind of said well, we should redirect everything toward alignment toward making eos the best possible currency um out there yeah and that the staking system can take the inflation and it eos exists to transfer uh well from people who need it short-term to people who are long-term community holders and- and so, if you're invested for the long term and building something you can actually profit by by staking and committing to the long term and and there's an exchange of value there, I staked, I, um I get rewarded for it that exchange of value is measurable.

C

It's objective. Those are all really great things now. One of the things that steemit was right. Steemit was an attempt to create a algorithm that could reward people for doing good things for the community for contributing subjectively evaluated work in the form of social media. The idea was that if you get a bunch of bloggers out there producing a lot of valuable content that it'll advertise and drive people to the community, google seo will pick them up.

C

It'd, be an advertising self growing machine and it largely worked, except for the fact that there were people in the community with large token holders.

C

They would rather fight for a larger share of a smaller pie than focus on growing the pie, and that was a a huge wake-up call to the problem with worker proposal systems is that you can't rely on the fact that, if you own one or two percent of the network that you're going to vote in a responsible manner for the best interest of going the network and not just votes to allocate more stuff to yourself and without the accountability on that back end, we need to do more innovation, more research and I'm not I'm not sure that any project in the space has actually solved this particular problem.

C

B

C

B

Yeah, I was about to say that uh so would you do you see the the idea of an eos foundation as a middle ground for the wps, or would you envision it having a fully different function.

C

Who gets to run the foundation?

C

All you've done is move the problem, governance, someplace else.

A

At least you have a uh hopefully a diversified entity set up with with like-minded individuals that would be trusted or voted in and out, but I agree with you: you got to set it up within somebody. Maybe we don't have a good enough decentralized.

A

You know decentralization right. Spectrum is hard, it's hard, but you don't have some people stepping up and and trying to try to do some some leading in that regard, so the foundation at least provides a center point. If you will, I hate to say that, but uh ahead to help help get us down that path.

B

Here's an example I mean, I know we're in corona, so there's no conferences going on or anything whether tech or blockchain crypto, like who funds the the sponsorship of an event. For example, the bps are the only uh people getting rewards from the network, for example, and even they're, uh I guess distributing it back to the token holders.

B

So I guess, um with a decentralized group of token holders, we don't want to rely on any one of them to pay for things like this, we would like to kind of pull together our funds or the network funds, to do something like that. That's one of the rules of a foundation that I would see as valuable if there's like this centralized voice, that could say: hey guys, here's what we want to do. If you want to support it, you can support it or you can opt out so.

C

This comes down into the democratization of power um and one of the challenges we have with all proof-of-stake systems is you have a pareto distribution of wealth and when you have the ability to buy your way in, you inherit all the corruption from the wealth distribution outside of your system as well right, because if, if the federal reserve can print up a billion dollars and buy eos, now now they've taken over a large part of the network, um now the nice thing about delegating proof of stake is, if you get too big and you start harming the network, people just fork, you out, you saw that.

B

C

With steam it and it's a lot easier to fork bad actors out and and they can lose their billion dollar investment um under dpos than under proof of work, but we still need a a means of overcoming the pareto distribution from from a governance perspective and pareto's everywhere, right and so one of the things that um you know with voice is, I was trying to create a system that has unique identity as a fundamental primitive upon which you can start building more complicated uh governance systems on, and so that's actually, where a lot of my research time is focused these days is, is how do we create a democracy that actually does represent the people, because the problem we have today, you know: we've got party systems right, party systems are factions uh and we even have party systems in it play within eos right.

C

We got the the chinese cartel and we got the western cartel uh and it kind of creates this two-party system right right inside of the eos community, because people have to align to get to the 51 percent uh or control or two-thirds control.

C

And it's really a challenge when the wealth and the voting and the staking is all governed by pareto, even bitcoin mining. The hash power is distributed by wealth, which is distributed by pareto. The location of of cheap electricity is distributed by pareto. So all these things cause you know even a billion people it to concentrate down into a very narrow few right, eighty percent, if eighty percent of the people sorry, if twenty percent of the people have eighty percent of the influence, then four percent have 64 of the influence.

C

One percent have 51 percent of the influence, which means the whole thing is controlled by what one percent and that's, if it's 80 20.. If the pareto distribution is more like 90, 10 or or 95 5, then it's like 200 people, control the world right uh and creating systems that counteract that that restore the power to the individual right. True decentralization uh is basically about maximum empowerment of an individual relative to all of society right.

C

That would be the most abstract way that I could think of decentralization, um and that means that no individual is dependent. You have options.

C

You can opt out right, that's one aspect of independence uh being able to opt out as necessary to give consent, consents necessary to have uh cooperation, uh to have a governance structure, that's legitimate, uh and so that's why I created this political playoff process that uh tries to solve factionalism, uh tries to encourage identify the best consensus builders instead of the best liars and psychopaths, and things like that, because we need, we need some way of identifying who our leaders should be right.

C

Does it make sense that the wealthiest eos token holders get to decide the future direction well from a corporate perspective? Yes right they own it, they got the most on the line, but there's basically no power. Your only way to opting out is selling and selling is a great way to opt out. It's it's a way of governing which why I believe in a multi-chain world.

C

I think every person should be involved in multiple chains, just like every person should have the option to be citizens of multiple countries, so that you're you've got the ability to move around and to have have choices at the individual level. That's true decentralization, that's true, empowerment and then, if any particular system becomes corrupt, it should go down in value as people just start opting out and that's the checks balances.

C

That's true decentralization, but even there we still need a way of organizing inside voluntarily to reach consensus and maintain quality control, because if we can't maintain quality control and direction and purpose in a self-correcting kind of way, everything's just going to grow up and collapse, grow up and collapse. And that's what you've seen throughout history- and you start off with something that's kind of decentralized it grows up- turns it into an empire, gets increasingly steeper. Pareto.

B

C

And then the whole thing collapses.

B

How do we opt out of pareto, it seems to happen in every aspect of life. It's like really difficult.

C

Yeah well, the closest thing I I came up with um from a blockchain perspective. Is um you have a pareto of pareto distribution? You have like five different pareto distributions or ten different pareto distributions, such that uh the same people can't be the best at all of them right and that's a way of getting decentralization. It's like a blockchain, where every other block is produced by a different proof-of-work algorithm, some that favor asics, some that favor gpus, some that favor proof of stake, um and but that gives you just incremental increases in your decentralization.

C

uh But what? If? What you need is real identity. You need communities of communities right. So the idea is that um you know you can get a group of a thousand people to get together and they can coordinate and do stuff. uh They should be able to operate as one entity and then negotiate with other groups of thousand people that are autonomous, and then you can kind of pyramid it up such that it's decomposable right.

C

Any group of thousands can choose to leave because they uh they succeed together, right um that that concept of designing a system for a succession which is blockchain implements right. You can fork and forking a secession um that that needs to be designed into any governance system uh or what you end up. Creating is just a one world government under your new blockchain utopia right, so the maximalist maximalists out. There are asking for complete, centralized control under some governance structure on one particular chain, and that is it's not freedom.

C

That's not empowering the individual, that's enslaving, everyone to a new government that, in theory, is controlled by. uh I guess. Whoever owns those tokens or whatever the government system is.

B

I popped it up on the screen. It sounded like you're describing dax on dax right there for a second, like these decentralized autonomous communities, on top of other decentralized autonomous communities, and that's absolutely.

C

Beautiful yeah, I I I think that the way that uh that democracy doesn't scale, because if you have, if you're one vote out of a billion, then there's no coordination between all the individuals. uh The individual power versus the the power of everyone delegating a billion people is basically zero, but a democracy of 100 people. Well, that can work because you have lots of democracies of 100 people.

C

So the way I would you know ideally organize things is I'd, have every county in the united states and there's some 30 000 counties. They'd use some kind of hierarchical representative voting, but each county would get one vote. Each county would be able to secede from the state and join any other state that they want within each state. Each county would have one vote and they'd use hierarchical, representative voting to to pick a state leader, and then each state would have one vote uh to pick a leader of all the states.

C

But the idea is that secession is the fundamental right that you don't have to fight a war to leave right. You can't consent if you can't leave and so organizing people in a in a geographic manner that actually maximizes the individual, because you have enough influence locally to affect change. If you can make a decision locally, your group has enough influence at the next level up to to effect change there.

C

But if, if it's one person everyone's voting up for you know presidents uh mass popular vote, then it's no longer uh the individuals lost all power. They can't secede as an individual because they're, not you know they can't survive on their own. They need a community, but an individual county of 50 000 people sure that's a small country that they could succeed and particularly if they focused on on being independent um as possible, uh and in that way we can get freedom. uh And that means uh that's how you get decentralization.

C

So we need to look at all the services we're using whether it's uh google or internet service providers or power companies or governments, and make sure that we, we decentralize those things. So we don't have centralized dependencies. We need to come together in groups like all these different blockchain communities are wonderful. Now, let's have a a a community of blockchains right where every single blockchain has one representative and we can kind of figure out which which blockchains are allowed into that community of blockchain?

C

And now we have this very.

A

C

B

Hopefully, eos would be invited into that community.

C

Maybe eos can lead the creation of it.

A

Yeah now we're talking.

C

Once you have tokens on one chain now, you know rap tokens are just all right now it's govern all these chains and that's reach agreements with other chains to say that you're going to enforce our rap tokens and we're enforcing your wrapped tokens and that's that's kind of the peace treaty among the chains um and and in that manner we can. We can scale and grow up in modular manner,.

B

A

You brought up if you guys want to go back and learn more about political playoffs.

A

You can go back and look at uh at the mike malone, maloney, video and and the uh a couple other ones that he's done recently, dan, just just just quickly, uh going back to communications uh a couple questions in the chat: when will we see uh the next b1 june or some sort of other public event that that b1 will put on and uh there's been, some talk and brendan put some notes out there also about uh actually an eos specific roadmap, uh any clue on those two items.

C

uh Soon p.m.

A

So we we can expect to see some some sort of event and and another v1 june, like a bit.

B

I mean I think, we've got to wait until uh corona kind of passed. First of all,.

A

B

Maybe maybe not yeah.

A

C

You, whatever announcements, it's not it's not my position uh to announce events, but uh things are happening. Okay,.

A

And we and then we could probably expect a maybe expect a road map, possibly about the same time, part of the communications. Again there is knowing knowing what to expect and going back and forth and sharing with with the community and the community sharing with you. So that's that's the reason. Absolutely absolutely at least work for change.

B

Rapid fire will we see- and I I was at the san francisco, eos hackathon. It was seriously besides b1 june, one of my highlights of being in the eos community. Will we see an in-person eos, io or eos hackathon again in the future.

C

Sometime know, no one knows what the future might bring. I, but I know that our we have an amazing events, team that loves doing events. um You know with corona.

B

Government restrictions.

C

These days, uh it's hard to predict anything in the foreseeable future.

B

Right, uh you brought up eos as currency a while back, um but it's not stable uh with bitshares, for example, you had to invent bitusd to become the collateral-backed stablecoin of bitshares. uh What what's your your solution? You put out a article, a blog article about a year and a half ago, or so on, a stablecoin base, a solution um where what kind of solution do you see for that, like we have the vigor dac, which is uh launching uh on the 15th of this month?

B

uh That's been here: we've had eos dt for a while um is your solution uh for eos to be a currency? Does it need a a global, stable coin, or could it have multiple uh dac operated, stable coins or uh or even companies operating stable coins like? How do you envision that, as if you want to use this currency, it's got to be stable.

C

B

It's been stable, no.

C

uh You know the idea that currency needs to be stable.

C

um It there's all kinds of countries out there: they've got their own local currencies and internal to that country. It is stable because that's what everyone's pricing things in they're buying things they're trading things in that currency. It's only volatile on imports and exports right. So if you want to create a stable currency inside a community create an internal closed-loop economy, that's how you create a stable local currency. It might be fluctuating. If you measure relative dollars. It might be very volatile uh measure relative to gold. It might be less volatile measure relative to bitcoin.

C

It might be even less volatile but see the concept.

B

Earlier trying.

C

To peg creating a token pegged to the dollar, it's still giving the federal reserve the power to devalue your savings, it's still empowering them, uh and so what other metric do you use? Maybe you try to peg to gold or silver or something, but even there the fed is controlling the price of that, because they're printing, that's all priced in dollars uh and and they're manipulating the futures. So you know, if you want to build a community, you don't make price stability a a goal.

C

You make closed, closed economies, the goal or an hour of my times, an hour of your time um or maybe there's some kind of exchange right there. But it needs to be something like that.

B

I get that, but at the beginning of this call we talked about the new resource model and the most beautiful thing about the new resource model is the predictability.

B

I know what the cost of my business operating costs are going to be tomorrow next year, the year after uh that, that's where stability comes in play is if I could buy a gallon of gasoline for this many eos today, but tomorrow I need to use twice as many eos like that's an inefficient economy. To me, it seems like.

A

It's a resource yeah I mean there's just there's a limit to the amount of resources we have and once we hit that limit, then you need to go out and spin up a new chain or some other type of resource to. Otherwise you don't have the ability to to actually correctly value something.

C

Price stability is, is an impossibility general, so it's relative stability right. You say that uh I want to be able to predict in six months where the price is going to be approximately right. My price of food shouldn't be going all over the place, but the reality is that if there's droughts and and plagues and all these other things going out there, food could be extremely volatile. It has nothing to do with the currency, energy. Everything can be volatile and have nothing to do with the currency.

C

So that's that's one element of it, but really staking provides um staking and liquidity provision are the things that you actually want, because that provides you a little bit of stability.

C

So if you had a bank or you have people providing liquidity between uh eos and bitcoin and eos and the dollar and all these other things- and you had you know if you even used inflation from the communities to fund liquidity.

C

That would give you a little bit of predictability, because the community has a social contract that you know we're going to be providing you liquidity and it's going to require a lot of selling. We can't guarantee that it's always going to be the same, because that's an impossible guarantee to make you can't unless it's like, backed by gold, you can't peg the gold and likewise so.

C

I think that these fable coins have have some benefits, but it's.

C

At the end of the day, it's not a robust foundation to build a parallel economy on it, allows you to hedge risks with other people right. It allows me to say well I'll, take the volatility you can have the stability and vice versa, but we can't do that completely, because one of us is going to go and solve it. So we have to reach some kind of compromise of what happens in the extreme right I can.

C

I can give you stability up to 50 price deviation and then it's pegged or I can like the steam dollar. I can put a floor, it's worth at least a dollar or so much for steam.

C

um Each of those things is a way of a community to negotiate and barter and transfer risks between each other uh and- and so I think, that's not a replacement for.

C

B

If the traditional marketplace is not the goal in traditional markets and especially commodities, you can hedge your risk, through through uh derivative products and hedging uh with options.

C

If you, if you hedge your risk with derivative products, all right, let's say I'm hedging my risk of food shortage, so I buy a food derivative right and then food actually is short, and I actually want to take delivery because I actually need the food right. The fact that you give me the dollar equivalent of the food does not feed me right that if I.

A

Can find and that's.

C

Why the derivative markets are not a replacement for real commerce? That's the danger, with financialization, of our ecosystem and of of the world. Really uh you saw this when oil went negative. People didn't want actually want the oil, but they.

B

C

To take delivery.

B

C

Interesting thing that oil goes negative, um but at the end of the day the fact that um gold, futures or bitcoin futures are settled in cash and the fed can print unlimited cash. It means they use it to control the price and if you actually need bitcoin, because the dollar is hyperinflating and they pay you cash well, a lot of good that get that you can actually go and buy gold with the cash they're giving you, otherwise they probably would have just given you the gold right.

C

uh So if you're trying to hedge crops or buy crops like I, I can't buy crops by buying a derivative of the crops. I actually need to buy something that gives me an actual delivery and it's a real economy. That's moving things around cannot be to not utilize derivatives. Derivatives are more like gambling um and price speculation.

C

A

You're ahead, you've enterprised insurance for.

C

A

C

It's kind of an insurance kind of thing, but you know that you know you're ensuring parents pay out for the lack of food, but you're not getting food. You.

A

May not be able to eat at least you'll have some money in the.

C

A

Just yes, I love this topic, but I got people here that they wanted want to learn more a little bit more about eos and and I love free marketing solutions and and that stuff. But I'm going to I'm.

B

A

To moderate and bring us back on track guys, you do.

B

A

Just hear you posted a tweet here back on may 30th dan uh and the question was uh maybe some form of ivc message between change, perhaps plug into cesio, uh and you say we're very close. We are working on ibc related tech.

A

Can you give us just a little bit more info on what that tech may be and and how it looks today and what we can expect.

C

Yeah bitcoin header validation,.

A

Yes, you're talking about the bitcoin header, validations.

C

Yeah that that's inter-blockchain communication to bitcoin uh it's kind of one way, because bitcoin doesn't support going the other way, but it does allow you to automate deposits uh from bitcoin in a trustless manner.

A

C

Goofer burn is, is another thing that enables.

B

C

Proof of burn, if you.

A

Wanted to issue.

C

A token based on burning, bitcoin or.

A

C

You wanted to do governance and block production based on burning bitcoin.

B

Okay, you just reminded me what what did the burn steak emojis mean? The fire and the steak cheney had a bet with uh ashore about this. Actually, what let's go back to the emojis dan? We want to know what the heck these emote, that that particular one was meant, because we never really got an answer.

C

Early on before we had the voice branding locked down, we were considering branding around fire.

B

B

How did it feel at that time having everyone, including myself, speculating every emoji, you would write over analyzing it to the 10th degree.

A

Yeah we enjoyed it, we enjoyed it, we.

B

A

Any any time you want to share more fun information that you can't quite give we'll we'll we'll take whatever we can get in those days so go ahead. I said almost hey.

B

All right, one more question: before we get into our plan topics well shower coin dan. What the heck was the shower thoughts. Are you able like is this? Did anything ever happen from that? Or was it just an hour? Are you still taking showers, then.

A

How nice is your shower is a really big shower. You can get comfy in and like cozy, and you sit there for hours come.

C

About the idea behind that, um the idea is, if you have a device, and that device is basically a hardware key that allows you to simultaneously.

C

Sign a message, basically with key atta station, all in hardware. Imagine if your phone could verify a message coming from another phone and that phone decremented its balance and therefore your phone increments, its balance right.

C

So the key there is to make sure that neither phone can roll back and get their old balances right, and that can be achieved with things like secure enclave by encrypting, your new state, to a new key and then deleting the old key from the enclave. You can't get the old key back.

C

You've incremented your state, and so you can have one-way functions on phones, which is great. Each phone is kind of like its own blockchain, and now you need to know that if I'm receiving a message from another phone that it's um that it actually is coming from that phone and not something that's actually able to go back um and with things like apple's recent uh key attestation service. So you can now get a tested messages from apps.

C

uh You can now that combined with the enclave and other cryptographic techniques can allow you to transfer tokens from device to device uh without any blockchain. You know entirely over bluetooth or without.

B

C

Without the internet, just qr codes back and forth, you can transfer tokens from device to device that makes it infinitely scalable. Now you can apply this exact same thing to bitcoin. Imagine if, instead of sending token balances you're transferring private keys, if I could get your private key- and I know from at the station that you don't have access to your private key, I can verify that the funds the bitcoins are still out there.

C

I can now transfer that key, receive it and know that I've got control of the bitcoin. Now, unless you happen to be someone who, I suspect might be able to you, know hack ios jailbreak, their phone go through all the code scrambling on the device get into the secure enclave, yada yada yada. I've got reasonable assurances that you're not going to be able to to double spend or that you still don't have that private key, and now we can move eos. We can use bitcoin.

C

We can do all kinds of things in an infinitely scalable, completely private transaction fee free way, and that was the heart of shower coin.

B

Yeah, all right, we get back on topic jamie. I I got my questions. I've been holding back for two years out of the way we're.

A

Almost we're at the miscellaneous we're almost to the to the uh the reddit finder, the reddit uh questions from from the users here. So uh I guess uh you probably can't I'll ask anything new to tell us about either mios or eos x or were those just dead uh dead uh handles.

B

I found them on the I found them on justya.com. I uncovered those for the community.

C

Amios was an early code name for for voice.

A

Okay notice, he didn't say anything about usx, yet we'll just let that go. um Has your vision for eos prior to launch change significantly! It's your your vision. You know what yeah.

A

Have you changed or has eos changed? Are you still focused on? You still think it's is working as intended. What's your thoughts there on the vision.

C

um Well, my vision for eos was to build a community that would allow us to come together and and grant each other property rights enforce property rights resolve disputes. um So I still have that vision uh at a higher level at the app level. So now the vision for eos is to create a stable, decentralized.

C

System for building those higher level apps, so it's really about increa, improving the usability of um obvious application, development, that's and improving the quality of the block producers in terms of being big organizations with lots of reputation behind them, so that you know that there's not a a secret cartel. No, maybe you assume that all the major companies in the world are a giant cartel under the world economic forum, but that's a different matter. Yeah.

B

Okay, so that's live I've. I've been simmering on this question for two years, or at least pretty close to two years. um The prominent board member. I don't know if they're on the board, they're investors so uh 2018. There is the big announcement with peter thiel jihan wu lewis bacon. What is their role? Are they just strictly investors in block one or do they have any role in any decisions that the company makes outside of just being investors.

C

Well, there are all uh minority holders, so they don't have like decision making power within block one, but they are um nevertheless strategic investors. It's not just uh so they are doing things, but uh that's about all more.

B

Yeah yeah, so that they haven't, they have a rule. We just can't talk about it, it might be safe to say.

A

Yes, so that kind of ties in I'll I'll hit reddit here real, quick, uh submit 888 from reddit b1 has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of its equity investors.

A

How does that interest align with the interest of eos token holders and what happens when the equity investors and the token holders necessarily don't lie.

C

How does any individual in the community get aligned with the token holders? We all have tokens, we all care about. Seeing that be successful block one has brand uh value, that's tied up in it. So it's it's brand, it's economic value and the in the massive stake of eos tokens we have and that aligns the interest of the uh b1 shareholders in the neos network. We would not be doing all the things we're doing for the eos network if it wasn't in our interest to to see it grow and thrive, both financially and reputationally.

A

Okay, I think we've answered some of these eos authority asked about the new resource model. Brett collins was blocked once planned to help grow the eos mainnet. I think we probably covered that yeah we've got that uh maxo coin, and this is not necessarily talking about um the eos uh roadmap. He says what is holding b1 back from publishing a technical roadmap, an eos io technical roadmap, uh and I don't know that you don't kind of do that, a little bit via github. But can we see a technical roadmap in the future.

C

We talk about it frequently internally, like we, the number of different things that are moving on inside there we've got all these different github is great because you get to see a lot of the stuff that we're working on in different repos and different branches uh and there's a lot of different competing priorities uh of things. A lot of stuff is research right, so a road map says we know we're going to be able to get here at a particular date and time, and this is what we're going to deliver.

C

But when you're talking about consensus, algorithms or even scaling performance, not going adding disk based backing, there's lots of variables there that make it uncertain.

C

So, whereas ethereum will promise you a roadmap and then keep missing it and kicking the can down the road, we kind of show you what we have on github each day and we're making progress toward increasing decentralization, improving usability, improving performance and things like that, and we did that with our strategic vision back in b1 june uh and all those things like we recently reviewed it, and we've made progress on every single item in this strategic vision or most of them.

C

So things are happening and they're progressing and when the technology is ready and the code is ready and everything like that, we release it and we tend to batch things up and I think that's that can be problematic, because long pole intent can delay a lot of things right. We've had a lot of features done for uh three to six months already uh that we're being held up by bigger features that haven't quite gotten complete. Yet.

B

So do not be taught up by peer review.

C

Yes, yes, there's another there's an element of peer review and there's also an element of getting the community to to review these things, but uh we are very interested in getting more community engagement, uh doing more bounties things like that. But you know that's.

C

B

Community, as far as community engagement I mean I just want to- I said it at the beginning. I'll say it at the end, I'm sure, but thank you so much for all of this time today. This is the most uh amazing thing that you could probably probably give to the community at this point. Is this open conversation, so I just want to get that out of the way. So I don't forget.

A

Yes, thank you. Yeah crypto,.

B

Appreciate this.

A

So you know we talked about wrapping b1's uh bitcoin uh onto eos, but she went a little bit further and maybe it ties back to what zach said. Would you consider using the billions that b1 has in treasury bonds to create a stable coin? Based on our previous discussion, it's probably not necessary, but would you ever consider that.

C

You're, just gonna have to wait and see.

B

A

Well: okay, I like that.

A

This is kind of a troll one. I won't even go into that one. We're gonna ignore the troll ones. Okay, this is this is actually a comment. I've heard from multiple people, dan- and I know you know that britain has tried to maybe address it. A few ways again get your take on it. This is from steve fevitz uh on reddit. Why does esvc money seem to go to projects that are not built on eos or even eosio?

A

In some cases, if the money comes from eos investors, why not put that money on the eos main net? Oh wait we're not on that. Oh no, I'm not sharing this.

B

All right I'll hide that I couldn't see what you had up there.

C

um Well, the eos people who purchased the us tokens. They got their eos tokens, they got the software they can produce. The network they've already received everything we sold eos to the community. The community now has it they're not in you know it's not their.

C

um It's not a security right, so we said that the proceeds would be the revenue of block one sure so forth. We committed to invest a billion in in esio related projects, and we are doing that. But you know we also are investing in lots of other projects, all of which serve to.

C

uh I guess enhance the broader vision of free market solutions uh and building the infrastructure necessary for doing things, but have.

A

You considered rebranding it then to the b1 vc fund or something along those lines, because I mean it is a little bit of a misnomer. If that's the case, it's it's an.

C

A

Vc fund because you got it from the eos crowd cell, but it's not necessarily going to companies that are building or have anything to do with eos and there's there's companies that are building games on ethereum there's other things that are happening.

C

That's that's an area where I, I don't even know all the different things that are going on. That's a whole different aspect of the company.

A

I understood drill sergeant zeus from telegram, says: tell dan he's the boss and give him my love, so you got some drill sergeant love there. I just thought I'd pass that on uh ag from telegram just wants to know how satisfied you are with eos today um and what one thing would you improve if you could.

A

C

I would have had the resource model adopted nine months ago when the code was a year ago when the code was originally released um and I would accelerate the process through which things go through community review and adoption.

C

But I think that the community as a whole block one two is going slower than necessary uh that we could be moving much faster, um but we've stumbled on the same problem. Ethereum's had right back when we're developing eos, I said: they've got a plane in midair and they're trying to change out the engine now our plane's in midair, and so things are slowing down.

C

Fortunately, our engine is a little bit more dynamic and flexible and easier to change on the fly, but we could do a better job as a community of adopting the solutions uh faster so that we don't suffer with account creation problems or resource problems any longer than necessary.

A

Question and I don't think it was possible- maybe it wasn't well, why didn't b1 back in that crunch back when we were looking for solutions? Why didn't you unstake your your uh cpu and send it to net and- and you know, free up that that cpu and not because you're you're, one of the major reserves, if I remember correctly, of unutilized cpu, am I right.

C

um I think primarily, like I said earlier, there's already so much spam. We don't need to make it cheaper. That's not the problem, there's, never a problem with cost.

C

All we would have done, then is is given more free bandwidth to other people and there's long-term cost associated with growing keeping some powder dry, but not putting that cpu on the market actually helped contain the spam.

A

Red eyes from telegram wants to know if the new financial product will be built on, and this is b1's, I assume he says, new financial. I think he means b1's. New financial product will be built on eos or private chain hash back to each.

C

You'll have to wait to see he.

A

Also says this year, quite possibly, okay. He also asked for old times sake when moon, um usually it's it's. What about six seven hours down, I think that's the normal response. I have.

C

A

That's google, that's right! Ask google, uh I think most of these um here's one more, but most of these have already been answered. uh What dap idea really excites you the most and uh and if you aren't building it, what should we be voting.

B

Yeah great question from vincent.

A

C

All right, uh I think, uh a justice insurance or justice mutual aid society.

C

um The idea there is that if uh government violates your rights, the community comes and has your back funds your legal defense um and allows people to come together around that, and so you can. You can buy insurance and then have dispute resolution and a whole community vetting that you actually do qualify for for a payout, but I think that that type of mutual aid society is what's necessary to have. People come together to stand against uh violation of our rights, um and I've long been an advocate of that type of thing.

C

The challenge always boils down to the governance problem.

B

C

Put in charge, how do you prevent the system from being abused and that's that's what I'm spending a lot of time thinking about, particularly with the hierarchical representative voting, uh political playoffs or whatever you have it. um That's that's. A big part of it and identity is a big part of it. Voting.

B

C

Are a big part of it.

B

I just want to let the audience on. Oh, I just want to let the audience know that there's a great video of dan- I don't even know what year it's from, but you have a mutual aid insurance video from like your bitshares days, I'll have to put a link in the description for that, but I highly recommend if you hear this mutual aid insurance you're running what the heck. This is I'll put a link in the description afterwards.

C

Yeah yeah, absolutely, I think the hierarchical representative governance is a way of picking the judges for that, and I think that that's uh that's potential to be a breakthrough um for that particular application. uh The stuff we're doing with voice could create the the foundation of unique identity and verifiable identity.

C

uh That's that's required to scale that up well,.

A

That that question right there feeds right into vincent's uh next question, as governments start to move forward with the development of digital identities. Do you think voice and your patented solution will eventually be used by governments that don't have their own id systems.

C

Well, yeah we've already been playing with technologies to verify passport signatures directly. Imagine being able to secure your account with your passports, private key. All of our passwords have private keys in them these days, and you can then verify that it actually is issued by the government in question.

C

uh That could be a very interesting way of leveraging government identity onto uh blockchain based identity, um even doing so without disclosing your actual identity, just disclosing that you've got a public key that is certified to be a u.s citizen or eu citizen or whatever the case may be.

B

Just like the federal reserve can print money. Governments can print passports, though so isn't that a in a way a point of failure here.

C

It is which is why all identities lives in the relationship between people and that you need a way to challenge identity. So if I think you're a civil attack, I should be able to uh say your account's fake and then you come on trial. We do a video conference with 10 randomly selected people and if you can't show up simultaneously with the other you uh then then we verify and then we kick you out and we punish you uh there's some kind of staking behind your reputation. So you have something to lose.

C

So there's lots of things like that. That can be done to verify it, but all boils down to building a justice system, a dispute resolution system, a penalty system to slash funds or to hold people accountable.

A

uh Here's another one josh asks if you ever kind of regret, taking a a more aggressive stance on ethereum and these other chains and pointing out they're they're wrong the things that are wrong or they aren't going to work. Quite like you like you envision, like you, see the flaws in them. Instead of taking more uh uh conciliatory approach like polka dot is, and even though polka dot seems to be somewhat similar to to eosinous mechanisms for a scaling solution, they're doing it and they're coming across more as a uh hand-in-hand approach versus.

A

I would say aggressive, but so very straightforward approach.

C

Well, it has to do with their origins right.

A

C

Came out of the ethereum community so they associate it with their identity uh and they can't attack the ethereum community without attacking their past decisions, um so it'd be like me, blasting, bitshares or steam. Now I will call them out, because I tend to focus on. Let's just look at the facts: let's look at the technical and things like that. It's nothing personal like I don't have anything personally against ethereum.

C

uh I just try to highlight it's not scaling. It has these faults and- and people are believing things about it that are aren't true, um and so to that extent, I'm I'm pursuing truth and the reality is ethereum is valued as money. The same reason, bitcoins value is money. Its value has nothing to do with its technological capabilities, and I'd even argue that eos's value has nothing to do with its technological capabilities.

C

A

Guess sometimes the truth hurts and it hurts their pocketbooks and, and it was there, a situation where we could have caught. We could we could have you proposed eos as a better scaling solution if we'd use the honey to catch the flies along the way. If you will, you know the.

B

I think it's there's an animosity, I think it's. The difference between so is marketed as an ethereum killer, rather than an ethereum enabler.

A

I don't know that was ever done by block one or anybody else that was that was an article that came out. People ran with it.

C

Yeah, there's that yeah, the community largely did that. We've largely presented the strengths we showed we. You know you have to compare and contrast like why eos's very justification for existence was the fact that ethereum was unfit. It was unable to solve the things like eos. His identity was born out of the weaknesses of ethereum.

C

If ethereum could do everything, eos could do. There's been no reason to.

B

C

In the first place, sure.

B

C

uh It it naturally lends itself to the the tribal impulses when you start showing hey. You know, ethereum's proof of work and that's terribly inefficient. Look at all this energy being wasted, it's slow and all these other things they're all true statements, um but it does impact anyone whose identity is tied up into it. And so, if you're, like blasting people, you're, not really you're, really just trying to call their attention.

C

The fact that you're as long as you acknowledge you're, invested in an ethereum, because you think it's a currency and you speculate on the currency value fine. But if you're trying to say that theorem is going to be the technological uh solution to everything and it's going to scale and it's going to enable all these d5 things.

C

uh That's that's living in a delusion um and and that that's people take it personally, because you're challenging their worldview you're challenging their investment thesis right if ethereum's not doing x, y and z- and I believe I'm invested in theory, because I believe that then you're threatening me. But if you're investing in ethereum, because it's a currency and you're speculating on it just like bitcoin, then the fact that ethereum has technological limitations is not even an issue for you.

A

Yeah I want to address a few things in the chat dan's, a busy guy. You know he's he's building here. uh He can't track all the all the eos projects and dabs that are that are being built. He you know, I remember he may remember something about pios. He may remember some things about other projects uh he mentioned iq earlier, but you know liquid apps vigor uh d5 box. Some of these other projects that are that are relatively newer, he's not going to be able to answer questions about those. So don't don't expect anything.

C

But I can, I can speak to them in broad generalities, they're.

A

C

Familiar with bigger in a sense, I know that it exists. I know what they're broadly trying to do, but to understand all these things is it's a research project in its own right. It would take a day to go and digest these.

A

Projects, the white.

C

Papers and process all the nuances and translate it from their jargon into.

B

Staff at block one whose role is to do that to see who's building, what on eos io chains and to kind of report back to someone else of all of this stuff happening.

C

We have people looking at a lot of projects, doing competitive analysis and things like that, but uh they can barely scratch the surface because to really dig into the the nuts and bolts of of these things requires a skill that most people don't have right. You know it's like. I used to uh write blog posts where I'd identify the ponzi scheme that new bits was- and I don't know if you remember new bits, but it's supposed to be pegged to the dollar and I basically called them out saying it's not going to work.

C

It's not going to peg and so forth. I got a lot of heat for for offering my review and doing peer reviews of other people's work uh for doing all those things. It's kind of like no real payoff um from from my.

B

C

Of digging in enough to figure out what's wrong with all these things, um I can. I can tell you that in general, anything that's promising above about a five percent annual return is either extremely risky or unsustainable.

C

um You know, ponzi schemes everywhere have outsized returns, there's hidden risks in these algorithms or they're they're leveraging a speculative bubble in order to create apparent returns in the short term yeah, and this type of problem exists throughout the entire d5 space, and the economic fallacies that are so easy to to implement are just occurring all over the place. So I'd say, generally speaking, even the most well intentioned projects out there are likely to have um high risks associated with it. I'm.

A

Scrolling through the chat.

B

I got one so you you use the word d5 multiple times. You want to just give us a summary of kind of your thoughts on the defy ecosystem as a whole and where you see it going in the future, and maybe even what eos's role could be in that.

C

Well, d5 is effectively allowing smart contracts to govern assets, it's basically um creating futures and re-implementing. The current financial system in the blockchain space, a lot of d5 these days are focused around stable coins are exchanging risks uh and prediction markets, and things like that. So there's nothing new in defy other than moving centralized systems onto a transparent ledger, um making them deterministic, but you can implement ponzi schemes and all kinds of frauds in a decentralized manner and call it d5.

B

C

Right, so just because it's on a blockchain does not mean it's trustworthy, it might be provably, corrupt.

B

A voice article about financial integrity. How does that kind of fit into all of this? And maybe even the financial product that we don't really know much about yet.

C

So financial integrity is really about making sure that you model digital assets. Like you would physical things they can only exist or be promised to be in one place in time right. They can one place at a time, so you can't borrow short and then long.

C

You can't assume two things are equal like you can't compare apples and oranges right and if they have different risks uh different times, they're, not the same, for example, a promise to pay you a dollars worth of food is very different than the promise to pay you food right, uh but if you make them equivalent, uh you have a problem.

C

uh If you try to make a try to provide a system with leverage and pretend that it's 100 reserve backed it can't be right, there's uh I guess, if you're borrowing money from someone for 30 years and someone else hasn't locked up for 30 years, there's something going on. That's that's out of alignment right. You violated physical reality uh in a game of musical chairs right, so having financial integrity means making sure that if the music stops, everyone has a seat right uh and a lot of the cryptocurrency exchanges and things out there.

C

They have hidden leverage like you have a deposit with them. They say you have a bitcoin, but if they're.

A

C

Leveraged trading that bitcoin's just an iou from the exchange, it's not 100 reserve backed iou they're, taking risks that in theory are safe, but if they blow up your bitcoins gone, even if they're not hacked, it might be a long tail risk. It might be require crazy volatility.

C

But there is a difference between a gold note uh and a gold receipt right. If you do it, 100 reserve gold receipt is back, there's an ounce of gold there. A gold note is: I owe you uh an ounce of gold, but I've got collateral at somebody's house.

C

uh That's that's a very different thing and if you try to make the the note and the receipt equal well, they might be the same price 99 of the time. But if the housing market crashes and the mortgage defaults, they've got very different prices at that point in time, so financials integrity is about making sure that uh all the numbers add up and things only exist in one place at one time. That's what bitcoin does it provides financial integrity over the supply?

C

We know that there are exactly this many bitcoin, uh it's what eos does uh for voting and for the eos token supply, um but yeah.

B

Man, I'm just trying to poke around to figure out what this financial product is. um Could you tell us who the target demographic is? Is it enterprises it uh financial institutions? Is it people like me and cheney like who is this product for wait.

C

A

So in the in the chat here, uh you mentioned the longest tenth hole earlier when it comes to doing updates. So the question came out: why don't you batch the updates a little bit more? Why don't you break the updates apart? Are they are they so integrated that you can't can't do that in some cases.

C

Well, hard forks are a major burden on the community, so you want to have all full nodes upgrade only about once a year anyway. So there's strong, inten strong incentive to minimize the number of hard forking upgrades to.

A

Minimize the amount of coordination between.

C

A

Got it okay? Well, we we just about got through these questions, so I'll, throw it out there uh here at the end,.

C

My earbuds are about to die any second yeah.

A

C

All right, well, maybe.

A

This is a good time voting. All right, you mentioned you want one token one vote. uh We had brendon bloomer out there saying that that, uh let's see why don't you vote for those who support the vision, desired and changes the communities actually aligned with b1 in support of the change? The block producers appear to be the issue with respect. To one token, one vote and brennan says on july: 28th: that's exactly our plan.

A

Can you give us any more details about an implementation.

C

I can tell you that we've implemented code that makes it a parameter so that it's very easy to change. From one token one vote to one token: 30 votes or 50 votes, and the idea is that we can solve one issue at a time. Let's get the staking system in place, and then we can have a discussion about uh reducing the number of votes that each person gets and gradually reducing it over time.

C

So there's the code is flexible enough to do it either way um right at least that's how I've requested it to be built.

A

I don't think anybody's concerned about about the code. uh It's just about getting it.

C

So in terms of getting adoption, I I think that the block producers are ultimately aligned with the success of eos as a whole and that the eos community, uh you know once the code's out there once test nets, prove that it works and all those things and once block one starts voting in a certain way. It'll be very obvious, and people want to get on board for the benefit of the eos token price, that their block producers are paid in.

C

So one token one vote, I think, go a long way to keeping things decentralized, um the ironically, it will reduce block one's influence on the network going to one token one vote, um so that's a sign of how it does uh decentralize things a little bit more.

A

Okay, yeah: you can make some pretty big impact across a few, but you can't make that 10 yeah 100 million token impact across everybody.

B

Since we're almost out of time uh since this is very community oriented, it's an ode to the community, this is not an endorsement of anyone, but is there anyone from the community and, like I said this is not an endorsement, because I know you haven't audited their code. You don't know about security, vulnerabilities, you're, able to shout anyone out. You shouted out grey mass already once who else in the community kind of stands out. That's interesting to you, even though you're not endorsing.

A

C

A

I attack sorry he's he's gone there.

B

Oh man, he looks like he's just in deep thought.

A

Oh there he is.

C

He's there I'm here, I'm just trying to figure out what the shout outs are unless there's a question for me.

B

He wasn't prepared for this guys. So sorry, all right, we could just we can move on. I I get the position he's in. He he's he's kind of. I.

A

B

The reason we can't really.

A

Well, I will, I will ask one more request for you: dan go out and hit up kevin rose and tell him. We want to hear more about the pde. What the pve is doing.

A

Have him come on the show uh at some point in the future and and discuss with the community, because, honestly, we see a little bit in telegram, but we don't, and we know that he's supposed to be working with the block producers and getting some community relations going up but uh and he's talking to the public blockchains, but he's you know, we would like some engagement for those of us that maybe aren't a a a block producer, maybe aren't in a project. So we would just like to have an interview.

C

I'm sure he's watching this and he'll hear.

A

You hear your request: man yeah.

C

B

You go, you know that.

C

I know that they're they're actively engaging and ramping up to increase.

A

The engagement going under the bus a little bit. He and I talk occasionally so there you go.

B

Can we get a commitment that you will be back on the show again dan? Maybe every quarter every half year will you come back on and hang out with us.

C

Sure I'll come back on.

A

All right, we appreciate your time today, dan that was two and a half hours of unedited unfiltered dan. uh We really appreciate you here dan. We usually end the show we're not gonna end the show today, because we're gonna bring in some people from the community to talk here. Some guys stay on we're going to put.

B

No, we had a, we had a plan to sign off. I.

A

Know we're going to put some information in the chat, but we are going to end with the go yo so dan uh when we sign off here guys we're going to put out there. The the zoom call we're gonna bring in a few people from the community for a few minutes at a time. Let us know what you thought about today, but we're gonna. Let dan go and get on with this day and keep building on eos, so dan. We typically end with the go eos, maybe a little fist bump here.

A

If you don't mind all right all right.

B

A

All right, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate your time.

C