Fluence Labs Panel discussions, 8 Dec 2022

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From YouTube: Appchain or Layer3, Which One Will be More Widely Adopted

Description

Panel at OFR 2022 Sovereign Individual & ZK Odyssey

Presented by

Evgeny Ponomarev, Co-founder, Fluence Labs
Deniz Omer, Venture Partner, IOSG Ventures
Alex Gluchowski, Co-founder, zkSync
Alex Shevchenko, CEO, Aurora
Thibaut Sardan, Software Engineer, ChainSafe
Amrit Kumar, COO, AltLayer

Original video recording: https://youtu.be/U6We0w2LRFA

A

And development and intellectual capacity that's gone into the space that here we are today talking about layer, threes and app chains and much more specialized things, Beyond, just the layer, one and the Bitcoin and the Smart Control platforms that resulted years ago. I think this also a sign that you know it's part of the market fit. Is there and I have a great set of guests today to actually discuss about where we're heading with this technology, where we are?

A

What are the challenges so maybe before we died- and maybe you guys can give a very brief answer to who you are and what we've built engineering, foreign.

B

C

My name is I did not forget me, I'm the CEO of Aurora landscow company, that is building here in Europe, because.

D

In typescript we're building, also coconut rest organization of fight cards, we used to go to convenience.

E

Hi, my name is.

E

Supplies to open up execution Hub that allows people to request to the types of Education engines and environments that they use.

F

Hello, everyone.

F

Platform which basically the whole chain infrastructure for developers that the goal is to replace the proprietary clouds, which is more kind of on the application Level in discussion. When we talk about you, know, opportunities and Community to basically involved in this infrastructures.

A

The actual the competition.

A

Some of our audience might not be familiar with terms like action and layer 3, so I thought. Maybe one of you guys might try and explain in very simple terms. What do we actually mean so with naturally, so that's a baseline of knowledge. We would like to have to go with that.

E

Okay, so L3 essentially.

E

E

But you know you know, having said that, you know, pure definition is still not quite established here since effect, when app chains are basically anything that is designed near the software or otherwise, depending on whether Central homes, but basically a chain that is designed for a subject. Application.

B

And I would like to add to this that, in order to qualify as where to aware dream, the most important position is that these genes are deriving their security properties from their underlined systems, ethereum and all the way up from ethereum the secure the propagates and, like all the value data, is ethereum basically verify like.

A

Or test the security of all the higher levels, all right and and what does this landscape look like right now? Where are we with the UK technology and where we are with apps and Technology? How early in the adoption cycle.

B

Are we to the best of my knowledge? We don't have any molecular where, where to be psychic- and maybe may not start that, uh maybe for a purpose or not, but we have some application specific genes that are Independence averages where they do not derive security from underline systems, and that puts them in a uh in a very different landscape in a very different position.

B

Just have to some some scenarios. But it's not what I would consider part of leads or laptop.

F

Anyone else want to add anything to that.

C

I would like to answer an additional kind of perspective of the security aspect.

C

So if you can, we have a very interesting situation in the markets, a validators at the moments so for all of the change suits you have this validators and the market of professional validators emerged and means that these your various companies that are doing the professional validation they.

D

C

Validate in multiple different books, every stake is: she is validated meters a lot of olive oil, whatever they have tons of this stuff.

A

C

Similar situation is, isn't a possible the same values so are evaluating different fossil machines. So.

D

So what we're talking about security, I.

A

C

To mention that.

C

Networks- this interesting thing that in case in case we're thinking of catastrophic events when these validators are trying to submit incorrect blocks, then this actually destroys their reputation not only on the single chain, but on all of these chains right.

C

So it means that the security of the chains are somewhat inter in the next eventually and shared already because of the social thing and because of the social limitation, so it just means that, for the new chains that are going to emerge there, the security action is going to be higher and then we might think of religious, the better numbers.

C

So so the inheritance of security is super important. Yes, I'll move this stuff I just wanted I just wanted to point out. This is interesting. Non-Technical thing, ladies.

D

Yeah we have changed, so this is something that they feel really talking more about universities.

D

But I don't see something transactions going on.

D

Really possible Studio exchange because it was basically feeling the loss and that collapse who was building from the police. But, okay, you know what I'm trying to find things.

D

Which is more flow and his blockchain will be actually dedicated to the gaming system and it will have original Primitives that allows people to build games and, on top of the blockchain, make it faster, and this is too damaging because it is industry. Time has been specifically classes to maximize the effectiveness of some specific applications and right now, in the past months is only years.

D

I've been talking about that chain, more related to what Alice means regarding a kind of shared security or at least in the cosmos or for other ecosystem, the the idea that you can interact between blockchains that are shards of the same protocol or the same ecosystem, and thanks to others as young, allowing to do this blockchain to do that really seamlessly and yeah. That's that's what we're going to say.

E

I think you have to consider uh the alternative, which is as a problem you have. Actually you know you can consider applications beyond that. You have this general purpose, layer ones or later, for example, and apart from social media, there's this idea that for certain types of use, cases and applications, you may want to customize your chain for your piece right, for example, you may not like, for whatever reasons or the underlying gas metering system, that another one may provide you right.

E

So if you want to have your own mechanism too meter the gas you may want to adjust your electric block gas with it or whatever they want to design your customizer chain that affects Pursuits your heat, solid soil and, for example, games, probably biggest users of of app chains and Harvesters.

F

E

F

Small point to add to everything with um so basically as a I'm. Looking at all this infrastructure from the application developer perspective and like, in our case, we're trying to build the system where you know, potentially millions and millions of developers can use our product uh the same way as we use the cloud so uh and usually when they build, but they pay for, like some branches on computer capacity from the cloud, it could be like very small checks.

F

It could be like higher checks, but definitely they don't want to think about transaction fees and like a network, congestions and stuff like that, um that's why basically like as a typical application that may have like millions of business in the future.

F

We have this choice between um okay, should we build on the app change, or should you build on some roll up that essentially allow us to scale with visual fees, um but the um like the important difference here is in case of building up like it's kind of like different assumptions of, uh and trade laws in terms of blockchains you'll have to deal with this network quality units um which might or might not be concerned um for some people, because, like sometimes these are just two kind of centralization of power.

F

Sometimes this leads to additional efforts in terms of like when you're starting your new network, you just want to work on your application, but you need to start the network. You need to talk about interest you need to like do all of this efforts and from like, on the other perspective, there's potentially uh products that allow you to just like, you know, deploy the code, and it's might just be worse because, um but the you know it's not it's just not there yet like this in in in the desirable future.

F

uh It's all gonna, just magically works, but right now it's it's just uh like we have to do all these Traders. We have to combine several approaches at the moment if people want to run a product today,.

A

So if we had to predict like continuous time how adoption has progressed, would you like say like ZK will probably dominate an action, will have a more Niche or are you saying maybe there might be gaming applications that are so huge and built on these specialized app chains that it's just too hard to predict? Or how do you guys think will play out in the future.

C

So for my collection, you use the key technology, a.

C

Insure in five years, the key it is going to be the dominant topology for a building any Industries. um Apart from the from the other from the other standard forms, it will take a look at foreign.

C

And the second one is a separate layer, one with the token that is used for this instruction, so I I do believe that the future the development of CK was the key Technologies is not actually excluded the need of many different chains. People are going to continue to do it. It's just because of the fact that that investors are thinking that they that, if in case they are invested in the in the infrastructure layer right then this need is status.

E

Of water at the moment, I need to do that responsible to continue like that. Oh I wanted to sort of add that actually may not be for everyone, but you may not have the transaction needs. uh The the number of volumes that you're planning is for your application is not require. Identity blocks means just by yourself right. There could be, for example, something in the middle between general purpose machines, basically like sectors called vertical specific or networks, where you have something like a.

D

E

Is a gaming, here's a B5 change and it could be possible where- or some of these games might go center around round one or one to one Centro specific chicken. It could also be possible where uh most applications will start on or start off on a general purposes to feel like they have gotten enough user base, the level of use them. They would have their own dedicated properties that would come from an application.

B

Just like, in the beginning of being the early release of Internet, there were this, you know different path with people, for so it can go, but like one global internet will emerge over, there will be like separate internets. All those Insurance could use different Technologies, not of all of them were ID based, Etc et cetera, and we would see as an evolution that could visualized what really worked. Was everyone adult being a single most efficient common technology?.

B

Instead and then you, you still have something like private networks in China, but they are just like firewalled versions of things that still use the same protocols and I think I think technologically. That is what's going on um all the chains that have value for whatever reasons, technological reasons or amazing technological business. Maybe there are communities.

B

uh And those communities are powerful and they they create value because of this failures Etc, but in order to survive, they will have to adopt the most efficient, the most secure technology that protects. um uh You like visit that main things that I guess I believe from what I know today is.

D

Definitely going to visit yeah I'm, not 100, agreeing with this in the sense that sometimes in history shows that it's not because you have the best deck or the most efficient that this is actually what gets used and I. This is something I would like actually as a developer. Obviously that technology with me and you don't drive that options, but very often we've seen in the past that not the most essential lies are not the most efficient chain.

D

I should get into construction, maybe because they have the best threats or maybe also have you know about yourself and trade-offs that users don't eventually and still still go for this trip. I'm, not things but I hope that in 10 years from now so just to go back to the question, 10 years is a long time right, more freeze, it's a hundred degrees, probably and I believe that, as uh sorry mentioned before, there will be just which is absolutely everywhere. I really hope that those.

D

um I do believe that, as we said before, some chain, or some application will start first, as you know, in general purpose, watches, and eventually this is probably something we want to talk about, but yeah building on an action is not something of building your own blockchain. It's not something, that's easy and it takes actually a lot of time, and this is um yeah. This is a gaming fan of that is that people were really interesting. I do believe that we have a lot of simple, unsafe, app change right now that will die.

D

There's a concept that I really like, which is called love series and the concept of blogspace is thinking about. You know block should be the time if it was possible to you know, have all these say, applications or all the smart contracts, sending events Etc in the most efficient manner, so that every block is for every block on every blockchain is full, and you have many blockchain that only use too much today and still everyone is paying for Advantage.

D

And um effective retaining for this all with lots of not food and not use at all, so I hope that we just make this more effective in the future and right whatever protocol is used in this engines at least hundreds of blockchain actually learning and with blocks that are hot food.

F

Yeah, so um I really don't know where what the future gonna be. But I think one important thing to think about is that users tend to you know: stick with like the water right like the wallet is the enabled to do like different chains and features and applications that uh users use, and if we say that the future is multi-chained, there's going to be a lot about chains and they're all going to be kind of Force users to use different wallets like to basically build on different Technologies. It means they like.

F

We will keep having all these interpret. Those problems that we have today um and, um from this perspective, like today, it's possible to build the application application um which not, which will not force users to install to others that can use only like metamask and I can build at the same time and on ethereum level one and on mirror. We have Aurora, for example, or I, have the alternative uh way.

F

I, can you know, use impairment, one and then to like, and the user will still use the same wallet and but I think that if we think that we will force- and we will- you know- be able to um incentivize users to use several words at the same time. It's just like not going to happen.

F

We either need to figure out how to abstract out chains 100 of the bullets, or we will be a day like um evm or maybe something coming after evm, but like the majority of users can be because of network effects can be kept on a single volumes.

A

So, hypothetically, if adoption isn't where we want it to be in five years time in Idaho layer, 3 or app chains, why do you think that might have happened or maybe another way to phrase the questions like? What are the risks to adoption like any? So you, you touch the habits on some of these thought like risks, but what are some of the barriers that we're going to face before we can have like a dolphin into the videos of users.

B

I I think those are the the usual uh like the challenges that are not specific to their treats, but the general blockchains through the Social.

D

B

Office of trust and to solve regulatory.

B

Find ways to Integrated Systems, but all of this is happening uh like two, but with specific to Eck technology, I think creating trust through demonstrating security and reliability. Resistance where.

B

You can't fail and fail if it's a big problem to use any of the chains, it might push us back somewhat. It will not stop the adoption. You know if you think of the early days of education, the early crashes of heritans do not stop the adoptions, but if they probably definitely contributed to less millions of people to fly so you you should be taking things slowly, surely towards the.

E

I think one problem that we are facing Beyond user experience is today. If you want to use any application whatsoever today, you need to go and watch a 30 minute stick. You will beat your YouTube to understand how the whole thing works right and that's painful. You know when I go and download a new app on my app store. You know: I, don't read anything I just go and use it right and and and that's the first aspect, which is there's a lot of learning. That's foes only uses.

E

Things like that I think that has to go away. That's true! That has to go behind the scenes in a way where, today, you know that's great people say right. So there's quite awesome website you don't care about whether they're exposure, okay and suddenly, you don't have to be forced to go and watch your favorite influencers. If you don't understand how your favorite, uh uni, swap or RV or something else specific.

C

Change that are extremely aggressive in their marketing right, I really hate these cheats.

C

um uh That's that's this is this is a this is a really big risk right. Why? Because, because we are not, we already know the only ones who are talking about security and privacy. Take a look at at what apple is doing right now. They never ever have had Billboards right and now on the Billboards with ample advertisements.

C

You are able to see a person who is just holding an iPhone in front of his face and closing his face, and this is how they are conveying to their users that there is a privacy inside of iPhones.

C

That's what they are doing right and no single chain is able to to fight with ammo at the moment, and in case we would not, we would not unite as blockchain community in case we would stop shooting them on others in case in case we we can, we can, we will not be able to do a targeted laser focus strike on the web too. They just wanted to use all of our ideas right away pack it in the way that the users are okay to consume.

C

It is not overload in their brains and that's it and we're just going to be using material. We are going to go to do that so from I said. Oil is super super important for all of us to elaborate.

D

Words to you leave and would like to enforce it. I guess. Unfortunately, this is okay. I can do action better and Go My Own production um yeah. This is this is also I would say, probably inherential.

D

You know capitalism and the fact that when you turn down Sean blockchain with your own token and be you know richer, let's say I guess this is a big break into more collaboration and something that uh Alex said again if I said before that, I really really believe is super important is um the fact that we all very much using different parts depending on what application we will using and this I guess. As someone really really nice ways, this is something I think it's an enormous problem.

D

We're all talking about how you know metamask is so small to you know the better. When it has a budgets, we are all using items, alternatives, we're not using them, so I think there's a huge in Russia in this kind of our behaviors and and I I'm, very close to many wallet developers. That tell me that it's not because actually proposes this, because this is the first computer Advantage this. This tutorial, you just mentioned that before promoting that for you using this one, what is this?

D

It's all you're talking about from indigenous, because they just want to focus on how to use them, and so I think this will take a lot of time to you know to unify around. Maybe a couple, uh maybe CK develops a code called that chain, and maybe this is always the thing that people are asking what basically was into their application lately there will be one of their application that are challenges everyone around a clinical system and you try to do.

F

Just a small addition, so I think that one of the risks we have here is just an efficiency of holding decentralization right like we are trying to uh do like to to move and to build in a way that is different from how big corporations were built. So we are trying to create decentralizing the system. We are trying to spread the power to like entities, um and- and this like leads to inefficiency of how how fast it goes like how fast every ecosystem innovates so um and like.

F

On the other side, there are some projects or some chains that addicts in particular hates uh that operated by like a very centralized organizations that can perform very fast. That can apply all these. You know experience of building companies and corporations in a kind of closed manner, so they can build stuff faster compared to open a system where you have this. You know creativity contribute, because these things opening system requires a lot of Traders on the communication.

F

So- and this is just sometimes it slows things down but like sometimes it just allows some untrivial Innovation to be born, so we are playing the field. That's that's different than the field that was like 20 years ago, when all this like Google, Facebook and and stuff.

B

I I just want to add we're very short here today. We share the sentiment towards the chains that are using aggressive, very Wellness Market, which is so Advanced, but I also feel very confident that at the end, what will win Prevail are the values all right.

B

Like I'm, I'm I, don't worry about those chains, they will be building some stuff fast and we will be catering to some operations we'll be drinking some years, but if blockchain could survive in a centralized environment, if it could be valuable without destabilization without, like the you know, it has cost. It has to be sure. Okay, if it was possible, it would have already been done. We would not have needed Bitcoin or ethereum points.

B

So if those the the this this overcast or like rather the the cost, the willingness to put this cost is justified by the value of the decentralization. True decentralization gives you and uh like either. You are alive with the values and then I'm fine, like I, don't care who will win eventually, like which technology which approach I want the mission.

B

um I want our mission to succeed, and our mission is just promoting and storing yellows of blockchains or personal Summers, and if those not so honor sectors, move move ahead like they, they will not be able to provide the schedule so I bought it.

F

F

The problem is like um like crypto idea: multicult crypto idea right is that I own, my digital divide, it right. It's mine, not not the platform that, where I created it or used options, I could and the problem with all the serverless chains is basically they own. My uh my digital items from the digital audio instead of me, but if I don't understand it, I like I, don't I, don't know like if I'm, uneducated, massive user I, don't I cannot really distinguish between like that.

F

Do I own it or do they own it like what they can do to me in order to you know, cut the access for myself from this value so- and this is definitely like something related to like Market education and like long-term uh I'll collaborative report, in terms of like sharing the vision of the battery and and and and it feels like- it's resonates with Humanity so far, so we're doing good work, but that's still the reason that I just wouldn't want to say that I I agree, but they are going to be competing with Rebels and coin places, not with.

A

Us and those already exist and like do the same thing like users, kind of own crypto, but like not really right or I, guess it's more or whatever answers so they usually when we talk about the decentralized Technologies, the elephant in the rumors regulation right, the laws and I just wanted to ask what is the impact of regulations when it comes to these Technologies, because we know the DUI DX just moved on to their own kind of Technology, some say it's because they want to have better control over the validation set.

A

You know what's happening with tornado cash, so it's not like. We have a free, open checkbook to do exactly what we want, and so what do you guys think around the question of regulation on these technologies that we're building I.

B

Can start I feel very confident that we will move on as planned, because the weird like there's an infrastructure layers, we're not going to be basically effective just through the scene in production that internal providers enjoying the infrastructure providers for the internet? And you have some Advanced. uh You have some privacy tools and internet, it's just a sales GPS. They are necessary for functioning of internet but being able to access your banks with your accounts and secure way. They cannot be regulated away. You.

D

Cannot just say, like everyone.

B

Can ask who's asparagus, not multiple countries. You want to have people like, or services from Iran, be able to see every packet of nutrients that goes uh infrastructure.

E

And if you look at the last.

E

Of they have been at the platform level or infrastructure only for fundraising people with icos there, and you know some some sort of slap on the wrist or whatever you call it or buying CC. The major uh sort of regulatory uh intervention that came in was that the application of foreign.

E

A

Mean if you want someone like NASDAQ to come and build on blockchain technology I mean, would they want to be building on the lyrics to be where they don't know like? Maybe the validator sets in the layer two below that, or would they have to go for their own app changes just because they control the variables in there.

E

Other economic uh aspects of of you know, move from dydx is talking to to this as well, so uh in some cases they would be would love to have their own infrastructure that they control and in some cases they may want to sort of report that and be compliant to regulation. But they would be open decentralized infrastructures that, uh as as was previously a bunch of people who believe in those values, will build up those machines because a large network of people ethereum because of those core values.

C

I want to do it here that the the regulation in general is something that is going to move probably pretty slowly, but in the end it is going to be there. um I want to want to throw in the audience one. In one simple fact, a woman were allowed to to take part in the elections in Switzerland, one of the most prominent countries in the world.

C

Only in 80s right in our Regulators can be really really slow, but there are other ways how we can, how we can boost the adoption and push Regulators right, and there are already some some projects that start to appear in the blockchain ecosystem that are actually solving the regulatory problem right. What is the problem there?

C

The regulatory landscape is not is not clear and because of these big players are not able to come in the blockchain place right in case there is a project that is actually solving this risk or is taking this risk and provided the service to the institutions. Risk-Free.

C

Then it is okay, and just to just to name here. The risk service in this project is called security ties what they're doing they're taking your sequence. They are meeting one-to-one to other gear cities, they're, saying that these are securities, these tokens with all of the authorities they're doing kyc on their clients, and they are selling these tokens just one-to-one right well, like 15 20 percent higher on the market, and it works, because these people are accredited investors. They do not want to have the regulatory risk that sometimes they are buying.

C

This risk from this community and.

B

C

Great I want to see more projects like this that are solving the actual regulatory risks, and this would be something that is going to boost the adoption, because the money that is earned here by securitized team is the money that is not transferred back to the government and because of this they are going to see different Edition and they would like actually to to provide a proper, appropriate regulation.

A

And um something else I wanted to touch on was one of the game: changers, that smart contract platforms and the city and Broad was this idea of composability where people could deploy different things, and these things could interact with each other and leverage each other, and it was a. It was like. There were synergies there in that cliche term, and when we move on to layer three is that broken? Are we gonna have to rely on Rich technology to improve a lot or how do we actually keep that benefit from removing these more specialized Solutions.

A

I do believe that Bridges will exist and I think there was this.

E

Meme on the slide earlier, I think that's that's so true, but Bridges will look differently compared to what you see today right. uh So, for example, today, if you look at you have uh the wrapped usdt on on. Let's say polygon. You also have rap USD in a native UCT on the same chain, and then you could that three source of issues, so there will be better bridges that are obstructed away from end users and you don't have to switch networks, and you know investors remote chain and go to the other one.

E

The impacted bridges that will be obstructed. I think that's absolutely immediate.

B

E

B

Is a very interesting question and there are a few points to expand here and so, first of all inside that chains the possibility will work, probably exactly the same way that this works now the way it was any other can talk to any other atomically and sequence it within the simple transaction. So that is the interesting question, is how possibility Works across different app chains or Webmail, freeze and I agree that the bridges will massively change and they they do it they're going to be brought to our next level.

B

What I mean by this, the richest between layer of Grease, can be built, believe and trust us and completely reliable. So you can send a message and be sure that the message will eventually reach the destination will contain the exact financial assistance.

B

So there will be composibility, but it will be a synchronous and the the the way, like the reason why it will be possible to do it like basically like the same way as it's kind of a lot. Just the synchronous, but having all the same properties is that all the gold Bridges today is actually not Bridges.

B

This is a very flawed metaphor, a very, very slow term that we're using because Bridges imply that you have you know like Islands, like some some pieces of land separated by some Waters whatever and yeah digital glasses, and then, like you, can imagine them like you have like some physical assets on those islands and they can transport them over the bridge.

B

This is not how any of the existing Bridges today work, except the major bridges for where to those those how the bridges work is you have those islands yeah digital lessons? Like you mentioned, you have gold on one Island. You cannot move it over the water. You have to park it in some place. You essentially, where you drive a car.

B

You have to park it on on the parking uh spot on one Island, and then you wave a flag to someone on the other Island, and then they give someone to give you the car on that side. And then you can drive the comment which has to be created either from scratch or or like borrow for someone or something like this. But the assets on the other side remain there and they have to be secured by some mechanisms that could not be reliably make fully. Trustless still rely on something like, even if you can verify.

B

If you have a CK chain, there is a CK bridge between two different chains and you verify all the transactions between the like.

F

You can verify like two.

B

Different CK uh key chains fully succeeding within this bridge. You still have the last line of like subjectivity, where your you don't know, if you're on the canonical Fork of that chain or not, because if that Community wants to persuade the bridge will have no way to determining but like which is the kind of conversion, so you always rely on something, but within the letter three Paradigm we can make completely transparent chains. That work is crucial. You take acids on one side, they magically disappear there and they appear on the other side.

B

That is how breeders work and.

D

This is what should be called pages.

D

And this is something that's. um Some platforms are working on like I'm thinking about the shared security, for instance, where you can actually have say your main Advent that strike of what all the assets on the smaller islands and when one smaller Island wants to stay in assets for the other.

D

You know labor Island, they just call main island and say: hey can I just borrow this one and the main island will just keep track of where things wrote, and if this thanks to Shared security again, which is something that Cosmos is willing to implement and that polka dot has and allows to us to have um I, don't know if you should always glitches, but at least it is yeah pervicious.

D

You don't have success really good and I hope that, as as you said, and as I've said before, regarding college that all these Bridges will be true preacher and not automaticism, you actually just have to trust, not only need to change, but also the reason I use and I just want to look at one last thing: it's critical.

B

That those fully trustless Bridges can only be built with Za technology for fundamental reasons. We don't have time to answer them. I'm happy to take questions after the panel.

D

B

Show it on the product or whatever, but you cannot do it, because it's like optimistic verification, you cannot do it with consensus, quietly, be addressed and Reliance and trust. You really need to just be able to rely on that foreign.

B

This is the only way today that the university can build as fast.

F

I'm curious to look at this Burgers manager because, like it's the biggest several things it's about, how fast can I transact right and put the cost? Obviously, but like how fast is it if it's like current Bridges, which are not Bridges, takes too much time? Besides, I only know one from from zero this year, which is also like work as a smart contract which allows you to bridge fast um and I think the organic composibility.

F

We have this one problem of uh synthetic tokens right um so like when we, when we have some token on one chain, we try to say we send it into another chain where it does not exist. uh We need to create a synthetic token that is the third chain and the fourth chain, and then there's some pick and then you got like a whole bunch of which um I don't know. If it's universe.

F

um But it feels like potentially soluble into the universe, however I like it just like I. This is the the stuff that that just needs to be think about. I have no idea how it was the right solution, but maybe you guys um yeah.

A

We run out of time for today. Thank you guys so much. It's really exciting to see all the progress that's been happening in the space of what you guys have been building I'm sure, like two three years time when we had a similar panel, which would be at such a more advanced stage, it's always nice to look back and put these discussions. So thank you again for your time and uh thank you. Thank you very much, foreign.