►
Description
In this talk, Josh Kalderimis discusses the opportunities and challenges inherent in building TravisCI around an ecosystem of open source.
About CodeConf
CodeConf improves the software community by providing a forum for thought-provoking talks and forging social connections. The third installment of the CodeConf series took place in Nashville in 2015. Attendees came together to discuss open source, best practices, documentation, and community.
For more information on this year's CodeConf, go to:
https://codeconf.com/
A
Good
morning,
that's
much
better.
Have
you
seen
that
I've
even
gone
for
the
bolo
of
as
well
I've
gone
for
the
bolo
of
Mike's
I've
got
two
Mike's,
because
you
know
technology
and
I've
even
got
my
beautiful
cowboy
boots.
Thanks
to
the
amazing
code,
Kampf
organizers,
I
actually
was
just
taught
by
one
of
our
team
members
Lisa
who's
down
here,
she's
German
guten
tag
and
she
was
saying
that
I
was
saying.
A
My
name
is
Josh
and
I'm
here
to
talk
about
building
an
open-source
of
business
and
when
I
was
prepping.
My
slides
today
I
asked
Justine
who's
our
designer.
Can
you
help
me
with
some
pretty
design,
because
this
is
not
my
design
and
her
first
design
was
a
little
bit
different.
It
included
some
comic
sans
and
her
dog,
but
it
was
a
good
start
before
I
really
get
into
this.
Talk
I'd
like
to
have
a
little
bit
about
me,
so
we
can
bond
and
then
later
on,
we
could
be
friends.
A
A
I
come
from
Wellington
New,
Zealand,
I'm,
born
and
bred
there,
beautiful
city
beautiful
at
night
comes
or
that
they're
known
for,
or
we
are
known
for
our
flat
whites.
This
is
where
the
flat
white
comes
from.
Starbucks
stole
it
from
us,
we're
also
known
for
our
great
flying
skills.
This
is
Wellington
Airport.
This
is
typical
as
well
right
now,
though,
I
live
in
beautiful
Berlin
known
for
its
history.
It's
dance
parties
where
you'll
always
find
a
github
er.
A
There's
a
github
er
at
every
bird
home
I
tell
you,
and
we've
also
got
known
for
our
war
and
I'd
like
to
thank
America
for
a
second
here
for
allowing
david
hasselhoff
from
getting
up
there
and
freeing
the
Germans
from
that
wall.
So
some
of
you
might
not
know
this,
but
David
Hasselhoff
was
the
savior
for
us
for
that
warm
and
he
still
is
today.
A
A
My
talk
today
was
about
building
an
open-source
business,
but
part
of
what
I
want
to
also
cover
or
talk
about
is
what
we
learned:
building
an
open-source
business,
so
Travis
is
open-source
from
the
start
and
when
I
was
writing,
this
I
was
trying
to
figure
out
well
do
I
need
to
lay
some
groundwork.
Do
I
need
to
lay
a
good
foundation?
Well,
what
is
an
open
source
business
and
I
was
talking
to
some
of
the
speakers
downstairs
and
I
posed
this
question
to
them.
You
know
one
of
the
things
was
customer
support.
A
One
of
them
was
customers
being
able
to
contribute
and
Brendon
Keepers
Brandon.
Where
are
you
Brandon?
Where
I
was
at
it's
a
sexy
beast
Brandon
over
there
he
said
quite
aptly:
it's
when
you
contribute
as
much
as
you
consume.
Are
those
the
right
words
yeah
it's
about
right.
I
think
a
lot
of
that
kind
of
bought
boils
down
to
when
people
think
open
source
business.
There
is
a
lot
of
open
source
code
in
their
mind.
Each
one
of
those
has
an
open
source
code
element
to
it.
A
It's
like
open
source
is
when
we
think
open
source,
we're
primarily
thinking
code,
but
what
I
want
to
kind
of
talk
about
is
open.
Source
business
is
a
subset
of
open
source
code
and
what
that
kind
of
comes
to
is
that
I
break
up
this
concept
of
open
source
business
into
three?
This
code
is
business
and
this
communication
each
of
these
can
be
done
to
a
different
degree
of
openness.
It's
on
the
code
side.
A
How
many
of
you
are
developers
here?
How
many
program
does
c'mere
can
I
get
me
in
a
Suzie?
Ask
hands
up
I
can't
be
that
hard,
that's
good,
so
that's
pretty
much
99
or
100
percent
of
your
developers,
so
these
names
will
can
be
completely.
You
know
obvious
to
a
lot
of
you
automatic,
for
example,
is
the
company
behind
WordPress
Red,
Hat
and
Mozilla
100%,
open-source
and
profitable
chef
puppet
spring
sauce
spring
source
and
Zimbra
now
owned
by
VMware,
both
open
source
companies
and
I
kind
of
call
this?
A
Then
there
is
what
I
kind
of
feel
is
the
new
guard.
This
new
kind
of
idea
of
open
source
businesses
sidekick,
who
here
use
a
sidekick
sidekick,
is
great.
So
for
the
people
that
don't
know
sidekick,
it
is
an
open
source,
gem
for
rails
projects
or
ruby
projects
and
allows
you
to
run
background
threads
in
the
pope
and
background
processing
for
your
applications,
but
they
also
have
a
sidekick
Pro
element
where
you
can
pay
for
a
license,
and
then
you
get
these
additions
as
well.
A
All
of
these
have
a
open
source
mantra,
but
with
an
open
source
service
offering
as
well
a
closed
source
at
service,
offering
I
should
say,
and
then
there's
actually
even
addition
to
this,
which
I'd
put
in
code
climate,
they
recently
did
an
announcement
of
their
code
climate
platform.
They
open
sourced
how
you
can
create
analyzers
and
then
how
you
can
look
at
your
code
and
send
it
to
their
servers
to
be
displayed
and
given
health
scores.
This
is
a
form
of
opening
up
a
closed
source
business
and
giving
an
open
source
kind
of
into
it.
A
So,
for
me,
open
source
is
not
a
black-and-white.
There
are
50
shades
of
open-source
and
I'd
even
go
as
far
to
say
that
you
can
kind
of
think
of
open-source
as
a
bit
of
a
I,
wouldn't
say
a
timeline
but
scale,
and
every
company
kind
of
sits
a
little
bit
on
there
in
different
ways.
Now
this
is
just
on
the
code
element
like
look
at
Mozilla
they're
right
at
the
the
extremes
of
open-source
talking
to
any
of
their
engineers.
Very
few
they've
got
very
few
repositories
that
are
closed.
A
Github,
on
the
other
hand,
might
have
an
open-source.
You
know,
sorry
a
closed
source
product,
but
they
contribute
so
much
to
open
source.
They
use
the
open
source,
they
contribute
it
back
to
the
community.
They
their
developers
are
fully
intertwined
with
open
source,
and
then
we
see
kind
of
in
the
middle
you've
got
sidekick
and
hash
and
Corp
which
have
got
their
open-source
offerings,
I'm
going
to
say,
open
source.
A
lot
in
the
store,
they've
got
their
open
source
offerings
and
then
they've
got
a
closed
source
kind
of
service
around
that
as
well.
A
So
when
I
think
about
the
next
part,
when
I
think
open
source
business
I
come
to
this
business
element,
and
the
first
thing
that
came
to
mind
is
beer.
Metrics
beer
metrics
is
a
fantastic
tool,
it
kind
of
sits
on
top
of
stripe
and
it
consumes
the
data
of
payments
and
subscriptions
and
customers,
and
it
gives
you
analytics.
What's
your
monthly
reoccurring
revenue,
for
example,
and
what
they
do
is
on
their
demo
site
their
demo
site?
Is
their
numbers?
A
I
see
this
as
a
form
of
openness
straight
away
there
being
that
they
might
be
obfuscating
who
the
customers
signing
up,
are
and
canceling
accounts
or
upgrading?
But
if
you
look
right
there,
you
can
see
how
they're
doing
as
a
company
how
a
payments
going
refunds,
their
annual
run
rate.
You
can
see
everything
about
beer,
metrics
and
I.
Think
that's
really
bold.
To
be
able
to
put
your
numbers,
which
most
people
are
a
little
bit
private
about.
A
This
is
a
version
of
open
source
which
might
not
be
you
know
very
code
related,
but
it
kind
of
takes
the
open
source
to
another
level.
For
me,
they
then
went
another
step
and
created
what
they
call
open
startups,
and
anyone
using
their
site
could
opt
into
this.
So
you
can
see
how
gustas
is
performing,
how
Buffett
is
doing
how
store
map
it
like
that,
so
you
can
opt
into
this
and
I
think
this
is
really
fantastic.
It's
kind
of
it's
really!
A
A
A
Well,
there
are
tools
like
changelog
dot,
assembly,
comm
and
they're,
the
they're
the
company
will
assembly,
dot-com
is
the
company
around
coder
wall
and
what
they
do
is
make
it
easier
to
create
a
change
log
of
what's
going
on
with
your
product,
but
I
think
one
area
that
we're
not
doing
brilliantly
and
I
could
not
find
great
examples
is
planning
in
the
open.
How
do
we
communicate
what
we're
working
on
right
now
and
why
don't
we
do
this
more?
A
The
traditional
way
of
thinking
is:
we
should
not
tell
people
what
we're
doing
in
till
we're
ready
to
kind
of
put
it
out
in
the
wild.
Maybe
we
pull
that
feature.
Maybe
the
testing
doesn't
go
very
well.
Maybe
we
just
decide
we
don't
like
that
anymore
and
what
we're
doing
is
we're
we're
hiding
away
a
little
bit
of
what
we're
doing
so,
if
I
had
to
think
about
an
open-source
business.
This
is
actually
how
it
comes
to
me.
A
It's
about
openness
and
transparency,
because,
ultimately,
when
you're
trying
to
build
a
customer
base,
everything
that
you
do
is
defining
your
culture
and
core
values
when
you
are
being
open
about
communication
and
code
and
business
you're,
defining
for
your
your
users
watch
your
what
your
core
values
are
for
your
team
and
with
that
customers
identify
with
your
culture
and
beliefs.
This
is
a
lot
of
our
customers,
have
come
from
being
open
source,
but
I'll
get
to
that
and
a
lot
of
it
is
about
building
trust
with
your
users
and
your
customers.
A
So
I
would
like
to
get
a
little
bit
of
context
to
some
of
this,
because
all
of
our
experience
comes
from
Travis,
so
Travis,
if
you
don't
know
it
as
a
hosted,
continuous
integration
system.
It
was
created
by
this
beautiful
man
here
with
this
fantastic
moustache
called
spin
folks,
and
if
you
use
rails,
you
might
be
accustomed
to
I
18
in
the
I
18
engine.
A
A
He
wrote
a
blog
post
in
June
2010
about
Trevis
a
distributed
sea
I
serve
on
Heroku
and
then
later
on,
six
months
later
in
February
2012,
no
sorry
2011,
he
wrote
about
it
again,
but
about
it
being
for
the
Ruby
community.
Now,
the
next
day,
I
swear
the
next
day.
I
read
that
blog,
post
and
I
send
him
an
email
and
I
said
how
can
I
help
and
spinners
incredibly
open
and
clearly
awesome,
and
he
just
gave
me
commit
access.
That
was
it
and
then
for
the
next
six
months.
A
A
We
straightaway
went
away
and
found
sponsors
like
Heroku
and
pusher,
and
we
went
about
courting
the
Ruby
community
talking
to
Ruby
Jim
authors,
actually
sending
them
pull
requests
to
get
them
on
to
the
service,
and
we
wanted
to
have
the
goal
of
making
it
easier
for
people
to
test
different
Ruby
versions
with
ease
very
happily
enough.
There
is
a
bit
of
happiness
in
us.
We
just
wanted
to
make
open-source
a
better
place.
We
were
made
out
to
make
money.
None
of
this
was
about
making
a
profit
at
the
stage.
A
A
So
other
people
got
involved,
I
was
living
in
Amsterdam
at
the
time
and
Jeff
Jeff
was
living
in
Amsterdam
and
he
created
a
site
called
still
maintained.
I,
don't
know
if
you've
seen
it
about,
but
he
had
these
little
badges
on
a
site.
That
said,
is
this
application,
or
is
this
library
on
github
still
maintained,
and
you
could
say
yes
or
no?
It
was
really
simple,
just
still
maintained,
not
maintained.
Looking
for
a
maintainer,
really
simple
and
I
said:
hey
Jeff.
What?
A
If
we
had
these
little
build,
badges
people
could
do
the
same
things,
put
them
on
their
readme
and
say
it
was
passing
or
not
and
from
then
that's
when
we
had
our
main
explosion.
This
was
the
first
hook
that
we
had.
People
would
see
this
on
and
read
me
and
they
would
say:
oh
I
want
that
too
and
then
they'd
sign
up
for
Travis
ed
and
then
it
would
be
a
non
flow
effect
from
there.
It
led
to
rails
actually
joining
traps.
A
We're
friends
with
many
of
the
rails
committees
and
they
didn't
have
a
good
CI
system.
They
were
using
Jenkins
and
Jenkins
were
Dino
and
wanted
to
maintain
it.
They
just
wanted
something
that
worked
and
allowed
them
to
test
against
different
Ruby
versions
and
over
time
we
then
built
a
semi
solar
based
application
breaking
up
our
main
web
app
into
five
different
apps.
A
We
use
a
mixture
of
MRI
and
JRuby,
which
allowed
us
to
use
tools
like
a
m2
P
and
for
our
VMs
and
how
we
manage
the
VMs
we're
using
VirtualBox,
and
we
did
this
through
JRuby
but
at
the
same
time
we're
working
60
hour
weeks,
60
hour
weeks
on
something
that
we
just
love
to
help
people
that
we've
never
met.
But
when
you
enjoyed
using
the
tool
and
while
I
was
on
holiday,
I
went
on
my
first
weeks
vacation
in
a
year
and
I
sent
him
an
email.
A
My
a
text
message
I
just
said:
why
aren't
we
doing
this
full-time
so
from
there?
We
kind
of
courted
a
few
other
developers
that
we
knew
that
we
respected
well,
and
we
had
our
first
small
team.
So
we
had
Mattias
and
Konstantin
and
we
even
had
a
uniform
and
it
even
had
a
summer
edition
from
here.
We
didn't
go
the
VC
Road.
We
did
this
all
ourselves
from
the
very
beginning,
but
you
know
taking
into
account.
We
had
sponsors
throughout
the
time
and
we
thought
well
then
had
the
idea,
how
about
we
crowdfund?
A
How
about
we
try
and
do
something
a
little
bit
different.
So
we
created
the
love
campaign.
We
want
to
keep
that
happiness
in
our
heart
and
from
this
companies
and
individuals
could
donate
any
amount
of
money
and
we
would
give
them.
You
know
companies
a
little
bit
of
what
we
did
every
one
ear,
early
access
to
the
product
when
we
got
there.
This
was
for
building
the
product.
We
raised
140,000
from
a
whole
group
of
amazing
companies
and
in
fact,
even
stickum.
A
We
all
got
on
board
and
designed
our
first
mascot,
and
he
designed
this
tape.
They
took
the
inspiration
from
Stan's,
mustache
and
because
Travis
a
fun
fact:
Travis
is
a
character
off
Bob
the
Builder
and,
as
you
are
building
a
project
and
because
Travis
was
helping
Bob,
we
kind
of
saw
the
act
kind
of
resemblance
there,
so
Travis
CI
da
was
our
MVP.
That's
where
we
knew
that
we
were
building
something
that
the
community
wanted.
A
The
crowdfunding
was
our
confirmation
that
we're
doing
the
right
thing
by
investing
time
and
money
into
building
an
actual
product
from
this.
The
tricky
part
is
that
at
that
time,
Trevor
co.org
was
all
about
being
free.
We
didn't
want
people
that
were
paying
for
accounts
to
then
have
ads
everywhere
and
we
still
were
trying
to
figure
out.
Do
we
develop
in
the
open
of
the
private
code
as
well?
A
How
we
deal
with
running
the
service
itself
for
private
repositories,
so
we
decided
at
that
time
to
have
Travis,
see
Idaho,
keep
that
and
then
also
go
for
Travis
CI
comm.
So
the
dot-com
was
where
we
had
some
small
additions
to
the
code
which
are
in
private
repos
and
we
also
have
separate
infrastructure
and
that
way
we
can
make
sure
that
if
something
happens
with
the
load
on
org,
it
does
not
affect
comm.
A
It
was
our
way
of
kind
of
safeguarding
a
little
bit
and
we
nicknamed
that
Travis
Pro
and
it
got
its
own
little
domain
name
of
Magnum
when
you
went
in
to
sign
in
because
we
took
inspiration
from
magnum
p.I
and
we
even
created
a
github
issue.
That
said,
once
we
have
made
our
sales
entry
fully
established
a
sustainable
business.
We
can
shave
off
spins
mustache
and
he
even
says
at
the
bottom
cool.
A
Can
we
close
this
now
so
after
two
years
of
starting
as
an
open
source
project
for
a
little
bit
of
fun,
we
now
have
1,800
customers.
This
is
this.
Was
our
team
nine
months
ago,
on
our
first
off-site
and
now,
we've
rocketed
to
22
awesome
people.
We've
got
half
of
our
team,
a
remote
half
a
base
from
Berlin
half
a
base
throughout
the
US,
and
we've
also
got
half
our
team,
a
woman.
A
We
support
15
different
languages,
we're
no
longer
just
Ruby
and
in
fact
nodejs
is
the
number
one
language
at
the
moment
in
terms
of
utilization,
we
support
Linux
and
Mac.
We've
grown
to
two
hundred
and
twenty
thousand
users,
one
hundred
and
twenty
twenty-five
thousand
jobs
per
day,
so
that's
125,000,
VMs,
spun
up
and
shutdown
per
day
and
that's
on.org
alone
mm
across
the
two
platforms.
A
So
for
us
we
might
have
just
started,
has
a
little
open
source
idea,
but
we
then
decide
to
take
a
bit
of
a
plunge
and
a
bit
of
a
risk
and
from
that
from
not
only
just
on
the
open
source
road
but
from
the
crowd
so
crowd
funding,
side,
we've
built
something
that's
sustainable,
so
part
of
that
question
for
me,
for
me
then
feels
what
does
open
source
mean
to
tramps,
we'll
kind
of
talk
about
what
is
an
open
business?
What
does
open
source
mean
to
Travis?
A
Well,
80%
of
our
code
is
open
source,
so
we're
not
fully
open
source
I'll
be
completely
fine
in
admitting
that.
But
there
are
two
projects
that
we
see
the
most
contributions
from
the
community
travis
build
which
creates
the
build
scripts
that
we
run,
which
we'll
know
how
to
do
a
bundle,
install
or
a
rake
or
npm
install
or
any
of
the
script
commands
just
the
defaults,
there's
also
DPL,
which
does
a
lot
of
the
deployments.
A
So
if
you
want
to
deploy
to
s3
or
Heroku
or
Rackspace,
this
is
where
a
lot
of
people
are
contributing
bitter
ways
or
other
services
to
deploy
to,
and
the
main
parts
of
our
private
code
sit
within
Travis,
CI,
comm
and
enterprise.
So
we
have
an
enterprise
offering
as
well
now
which
came
from
demand,
and
we
have
a
little
bit
of
private
code
around
both
these
projects.
So
our
team
was
built
on
open
source.
Our
customers
came
to
us
from
helping
open
source
companies
have
helped
us
along
the
way
because
we
were
open
source.
A
We
still
are,
and
ultimately,
like
I
said
before.
Customers
identify
with
your
culture
and
beliefs
as
a
team,
so
open-source
is
at
the
core
of
who
we
are
as
a
company
as
Travis
but
again
being
open.
Although
being
open
is
at
the
core
of
what
we
do,
what
we
want
to
then
take
that
to
is
being
open
about
what
we
are
doing
so
with
the
help
of
Justine
and
Lisa,
who
are
sitting
right
here
at
the
front.
A
So
it
was
actually
about
me
working
out
in
the
open
with
my
team
on
wiki's,
for
example,
but
we
thought
well,
we
can
take
a
lesson
from
this.
We
can
take
it
one
step
further
for
us
working
out
in
the
open
is
about
building
trust
with
our
customers
about
what
we
are
doing
so,
instead
of
us
releasing
at
the
end
and
then
telling
people
what
we've
done.
We
want
to
see
people.
A
So,
for
me,
it's
about.
It
then
also
comes
down
to
like
what
are
the
five
things
we've
learned
from
building
trends.
If
there's
five
things,
I
could
pass
away
to
people
that
asked
us
about
building
an
open-source
product.
What
could
I
tell
him?
Well,
I'd
first
say-
and
this
is
I
hope
this
is
not
contradictory.
Not
all
of
your
code
needs
to
be
open-source
being
an
open-source
business
is
not
just
about
your
code.
It's
about
your
communication.
It's
about
your
business
practices,
the
more
code
you
can
have
open-source.
A
The
better
people
will
get
involved,
focus
on
building
a
great
product
charge
straight
away.
What
we
learn
from
Travis
is
when
we're
building
a
business
we
didn't
want
to
be
in
stuck
in
beta
for
the
next
year
or
two,
and
on
top
of
that,
you
need
to
make
sure
that
you
don't
undervalue
yourself
the
initial
idea.
This
is
what
we
were
going
to
do.
A
So
we
took
that
on
board
and
we
said:
okay,
we're
going
to
we're
going
to
go
for
129,
because
it's
always
easier
to
lower
your
prices
than
it
is
to
raise
them
through
in
529
and
from
that
we
kept
everything
free
on
open
source
because
where
there
is
infrastructure
to
pay
on
that
side,
but
we
were
providing
value
and
the
value
we
didn't
want
to
get
stuck
in
price
wars
of.
If
someone
does
100
or
you
know,
59
do
we
need
to
cut
down
to
49.
A
Have
someone
in
your
team
lead
product
development?
Now
the
reason
I
bring
this
up
is
a
lot
of
you
hear
a
lot
of
everyone
here.
Our
product
developers
are
developers
and
a
lot
of
the
time
when
we
have
an
idea
of
something
that
we
want
to
work
on.
We
team
up
with
other
developers
and
now
what
we
do
is
we
have
two
three
four
people
that
are
very
tech,
focused
leading
a
product
and
normally
no
one's
actually
leading
the
product.
A
Creating
a
roadmap
is
actually
a
very
good
start,
but
don't
treat
it
as
gospel.
37Signals
will
say,
don't
have
roadmaps
at
all.
I
believe
roadmaps
are
good
because
they
give
you
a
little
bit
of
focus
and
they
give
you
direction,
but
you
don't
need
to
adhere
to
it
all
the
way
through
we've
got
a
very
diverse
team,
I
think
I
think
we
can
only
improve
that,
though
diverse
teams
are
amazing,
you
don't
want
people
always
saying
yes
on
the
team
as
well.
A
Conflict
can
be
healthy,
communicate,
often
and
all
the
time,
and
what
I
mean
by
this
is
don't
rely
on
chat.
What
I
hate
personally
is
treating
live,
chat
ever
be
slack
or
IRC
as
a
history
of
chat,
because
that
means
that
your
remote
team,
when
they're
nine
hours
difference,
will
come
online
and
they're
expected
to
read
the
backlog,
and
that
is
a
long
backlog.
People
should
not
have
to
read
a
backlog
to
feel
like
they're
included
in
the
team
in
the
company.
A
Try
for
face-to-face
communication,
as
often
as
possible
Skype
calls
get
there
or
fly
over
and
meet
each
other
I
know
some
of
this
is
expensive,
but
what
you're
ultimately
looking
for
is
a
team
that
can
have
updates
and
share
and
can
talk
face-to-face
instead
of
always
relying
on
text
and
the
biggest
problem
with
text
and
IRC
and
slack.
Is
that
not
only
do
we
have
different
time
zones
to
deal
with,
we've
got
different
cultures,
we've
got
different
personalities,
and
that
leads
to
a
lot
of
different
interpretations.
A
Someone
can
think
they're
being
polite,
the
other
one
can
think
they're
being
very
rude
and
a
lot
of
that
is
lost
in
the
facial
expressions,
because
text
is
a
very
low
bandwidth
medium
when
communicating
with
your
team
and
there's
my
six
one,
because
I
don't
know
if
anyone
is
actually
counting.
This
is
number
six.
Not
five
is
read:
I,
never
used
to
actually
really
read
books
up
until
I'm
old
and
decrepit
now
at
33,
although
I
just
turned
it.
A
Teams
are
hard,
but
how
about
you
do
some
reading
product
management
is
hard.
Do
some
reading
pricing
is
hard
read.
So,
in
summary,
open
source
is
amazing.
It's
not
black
and
white.
You're
not
open
you
can't.
There
is
no
like
you
are
open
source
you're
not
open
to,
especially
when
you're
a
business.
A
You
can
be
open
source
without
being
open
and
you
can
be
open
without
being
open.
Source
of
you
can
also
be
both
and
finds
the
right
mix
for
your
team.
I
can't
tell
you
what
that
is,
but
what
you
need
to
do
is
find
the
right
mix
for
your
team
and
your
product
and
most
of
all
do
not
under
value
the
work
that
you
are
creating
the
product.
You
are
creating
the
business.
You
are
creating
Reed
Reed
Reed
and
thank
you
very
thank
you
very
much.