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From YouTube: Start It Up Wednesday with CodeSee
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A
A
A
A
Hey
hey
all
right!
Well,
thank
you
guys
for
joining
us
for
another
episode
of
start
it
up.
Wednesday
we've
got
a
really
good
one
for
you
guys
today,
so
shout
out
to
everyone.
That's
joined
us
from
all
around
the
world.
We've
got
some
people
from
Ghana
from
Iran
I'm
awesome
to
see
you
guys.
Joining
in
we've
got
the
CEO
and
founder
of
code
C
with
us,
Shanae,
11
and
she's,
calling
in
from
San
Francisco
shenaya.
How
are
you
I.
A
So
this
one
is
going
to
be
a
little
bit
different
than
some
of
our
other
started
up
Wednesdays
we
usually
have
Roselle
who's,
our
other
co-host,
and
she
does
things
a
little
bit
different
than
me.
So
hopefully
Everyone
likes
this
Vibe
as
well.
We're
going
to
be
talking
a
little
bit
more
about
your
founder
story
who
you
are
and
how
you've
got
everything
kind
of
started,
but
I
love
for
you
to
kind
of
give
us
a
highlight
of
who
who
Shanae
is
and
and
tell
us
yeah
tell
us
a
little
bit
more
yeah.
B
All
things
developers
I've
been
working
in
developer
tools
for
12
years,
I
know
I'm
much
older
than
I
look,
I
studied
business
and
computer
science,
and
you
know
I
I've
worked
at
at
Google
and
cloudflare
and
Docker,
and
a
bunch
of
other
developer
focused
startups
before
starting
my
own,
and
you
know
it's
been
an
absolute
joy
to
be
able
to.
You
know,
support
this
amazing.
B
You
know
group
of
people
I
like
to
think
that
developers
are
like
force
multipliers
and
so
I've
spent
my
entire
career
there,
helping
developers
making
their
lives
easier
and
that's
kind
of
what
led
me
to
and
my
co-founder
starting
cozy.
A
Very
cool,
so
a
little
bit
of
background
for
those
joining
she's
been
the
founder
of
code
C
for
about
three
years
now,
yeah.
A
Yeah
and
tell
us
tell
what
you've
raised
so
far
and
kind
of
where
you
are
the
stage
of
your
company
yeah.
B
Know
the
thing
that
we're
trying
to
build
is
we
started
our
our
platform
in
open
source,
visualizing,
open
source
repos,
and
then
we
kind
of
moved
into
larger
and
larger
Enterprise
code
bases,
and
so
that's
kind
of
been
the
the
impetus
for
all
of
this.
How
do
we
understand
all
of
this
code?
B
We
have
all
around
us
and
with
the
admins
of
AI
like
it's,
it's
going
to
be
even
more,
and
so
we're
really
excited
to
help
devs
like
understand
all
the
code,
that's
going
on
in
there
in
their
careers
and
code
bases
and
open
source
projects
Etc.
This.
A
Is
going
to
be
a
really
exciting
episode,
I'm
super
excited
before
I.
Keep
going
I
just
wanted
to
make
sure
that
everyone
knows
like
if
you've
got
comments
or
questions,
please
throw
them
in
the
chat
and
we'll
have
either
myself
or
Shanaya
answer
them,
but
a
little
bit
about
me,
because
this
is
definitely
not
about
me,
but
just
a
shout
out
really
to
you.
I'm,
a
former
founder
as
well
before
I
started
working
at
GitHub
I
raised
a
little
bit.
Raising
10
million
dollars
is
a
ridiculous,
incredible
feat
of
accomplishments.
A
A
Okay,
so
I
actually
want
to
start
there.
You
are
a
female
founder
and
a
founder
of
color
yeah.
C
A
Really
would
love
to
know
like
how
has
that
experience
been
for
you,
both
like
when
starting
the
company,
as
far
as
like
legitimizing,
what
you're
doing
and
getting
that
credibility,
but
as
well
as
like,
as
you
start,
that
VC
journey
and
you're
and
you're
starting
to
pitch
and
meet
those
connections
like
how
has
that
played
into
what
you've
been
able
to
accomplish
or
not
accomplish
so
far,
yeah.
C
So
I
think,
as
a
you
know,
fundraising.
B
Is
always
a
challenge
for
anybody?
No
matter
what
you
look
like
and
I
think
that
it
was.
You
know
difficult
for
for
me,
but
we
had
some
advantages
that
other
people
might
not.
You
know
know
about,
and
I
tend
to
talk
about
these
things,
because
once
you
kind
of
know
the
rules
of
the
game,
everything
becomes
a
lot
easier.
B
So
I
had
no
idea
any
of
these
things
before
I
started
and
it's
a
the
VC
Community
is
actually
quite
counter-intuitive
to
how
we
think
as
developers
and
how
we
think,
as
you
know,
Founders
the
VC
industry
has
their
own
rules
and
what
they
care
about.
B
They
actually
have
investors
in
and
of
themselves
called
LPS,
and
these
LPS
are,
you
know,
organizations
their
endowments
they're.
All
of
these
things
who
want
to
take
their
money
and
get
a
return
on
them,
and
so
how
startup
Community?
How
VC
Community
works
is
you
know
most
VCS
think
that
you
know
most
startups
are
going
to
fail
right
and
that's
okay.
We
all
learn,
we
all
grow.
That's
why
they're?
You
know
serial
entrepreneurs,
but
the
there's
gonna
like
likely
there's
going
to
be
one
startup.
C
B
Can
articulate
this
is
why
this
is
going
to
be
that
one
company,
that's
gonna,
you
know,
provide
the
return
set,
you're,
you're,
looking
for
and
so
coming
to.
You
know
pitching
coming
to
you
know
your
your
deck
all
of
your
assets
with
that
frame
in
mind,
as
opposed
to
you
know
here,
just
the
stats
about
the
business.
What's
the
big
Vision,
what's
the
Big
Goal,
how
are
you
going
to
change
the
industry?
B
How
do
you
have
the
right
team
in
place
to
make
sure
you
can
execute
well
having
a
different
frame
of
mind
around
that
really
helps
with
how
you
pitch
how
you
think
how
you
kind
of
get
that
credibility
that
you
asked
for
earlier.
Yeah.
A
So
this
is
an
important
conversation
because,
like
I
said
normally,
when
Roselle
started
up
Wednesday,
we
really
focus
on
the
tech
of
the
company
and
we
absolutely
will
get
there.
A
Fundraising
so
I
think
this
is
what
why
this
is
a
really
great
episode
for
us.
So
we
we
started
with
a
little
bit
about
your
founder
story:
I'd
love
to
now
jump
into
code,
C
and
kind
of
see
what
everybody
or
have
everyone
see
what
you've
been
working
on.
So
I'd
love
for
you
to
show
us,
maybe
a
quick
demo
of
what
you
guys
do
and
tell
us
a
little
bit
about
more
more
about
goatse.
C
Awesome
so
before
I
kind
of
get
started
on
this.
B
Everyone
know
shows
that
understanding
code
is
hard
right
and
today,
there's
more
and
more
code
than
ever
before,
particularly
as
you
know,
you're
starting
your
startups,
if
you're
having
contractors,
if
you're
having
you
know,
scaling
up
your
teams
as
you're
working
at
companies
and
you're
like
leaving
and
trying
to
think
about,
you
know
starting
your
companies.
B
Your
code
base
is
the
single
asset
that
moves
if
you're,
making
a
platform
or
you're
making
a
you
know,
an
online
product
is
the
the
core
of
your
business
and
so
understanding
it
having
control
over
it
having
being
productive
in
it
shipping
new
code,
it
has
to
be
the
utmost
importance,
and
that
is
what
cozy
does.
Cozy
is
a
code
understanding
platform
that
helps
you
to
onboard
new
team
members,
refactor
new
code
bases
and
ship
new
code
faster
and
the
way
that
we
do,
that
is
in
four
modules.
B
B
Essentially,
what
you
do
is
you
plug
this
in
and
we
can
automatically
visualize
your
high
level
architecture
across
all
of
your
repo
Services
message
queues
into
your
Cloud,
all
of
those
good
things
which
gives
you
a
lot
of
flexibility
like.
Oh,
if
you
want
to
see
your
endpoints,
you
can
absolutely
see
your
endpoints.
B
You
wanted
to
dive
in
and
see
like
how
is
postgres,
making
all
those
queries
you
can
just
dive
in
something
that
we
uniquely
do
is
articulate
something
called
flows,
which
is
how
does
execution
data
flow
through
your
system
and
so
really
detailing?
You
know
here's
how
data
flows
through
and
all
of
its
variations.
So
if
you've
got
you
know,
debugging
turned
on
or
if
you've
got
an
additional
Edge
case
or
pass.
A
B
But
also
they
will
up
auto
update
as
your
underlying
code
changes,
you
can
make
asynchronous
walkthroughs.
You
can
have
that
living
documentation,
so
you
don't
actually
have
to
do
it
manually
on
your
own.
These
are
super
flexible,
with
figuring
out
refactoring
or
figuring
out
new
feature,
Maps
or
figuring
out.
B
You
know
technical
debt
Maps
really
providing
that
fast
mental
model
for
how
something
works
and
then
very
quickly.
The
third
module
is
being
able
to
visualize
a
code
review
so
because
we
work
with
GitHub
a
ton,
we're
Partners,
we
can
actually
post
a
visualization
on
the
body
of
every
PR
to
give
you
that
quick
mental
model
of
how
my
change
actually
affects
the
rest
of
the
architecture,
so
you
can
really
visually
say
like.
Oh
here's
all
the
dependencies
that
I
think
should
happen,
did
I
ship
a
bug.
B
Probably
I
can
really
get
a
chance
to
to
fix
it
very
very
quickly,
and
these
can
kind
of
stick
around
as
permanent
artifacts.
So,
as
new
team
members
come
on
as
they
leave
as
you
change,
these
all
can
stick
around
and
then
finally,
we
put
a
whole
rules
engine
around
our
platform.
So
once
you
have
information,
you
can
articulate,
oh
in
this
area
of
the
code
base.
B
Only
do
this,
so
one
of
my
favorite
automations
is
a
very
simple
one,
which
is
don't
ship
console
logs
into
production
which,
as
you
can
see,
happens
all
the
time
just
as
recently
as
an
hour
ago.
So
our
conditional
automations
can
really
search
your
your
code
for
an
individual
function
as
granular
as
an
individual
function
and
articulated
a
checklist,
and
they
can
be
really
code
based
specific.
B
These
only
actually
show
up
if
you
touch
that
area
of
the
code,
so
devs
are
not
gonna
end
up
with
these
50
point
checklists
that
everybody
ignores,
and
so
all
of
this
stuff
is
really
really
helpful
for
making
sure
that
you
set
up
maintainable
scalable
easy
to
work
with
code,
no
matter
who
you
bring
on
or
what
your
business
does.
You
can
easily
change
and
pivot.
If
you
kind
of
set
this
up
from
day,
one.
A
B
This
actually
came
out
of
my
time
at
Docker
I've
been
in
developer
tools
for
a
number
of
years,
but
I
think
this
was
the
the
situation
that
happened
at
Docker
was
just
the
most
painful,
so
I
was
a
senior
director
of
product
there
and
we
were
trying
to
ship
a
feature
that
you
know.
Developers
have
been
asking
us
for
a
year
literally
years
for
we
spent
six
months
building.
This
feature
me
and
10
Engineers,
and
we
were
about
to
launch
it.
Two
days
before
the
launch.
B
There
was
a
show-stopping
bug.
The
number
of
like
vulnerabilities
on
the
front
end
didn't
match
the
number
on
the
back
end,
we're
like
what
are
we
supposed
to
do
about
this
book
and
so
from
there
we
kind
of
track
down
where
the
bug
was
coming
from
and
it
was
coming
from
an
area
of
the
code
base
that
nobody
understood
there
was
no
documentation,
there's
no
insight.
There
was
no
nothing
and
the
people
that
knew
that
area
of
the
code
base
the
most
were
no
longer
a
docker
and
we're
stuck.
B
It
would
have
taken
a
month
to
read
all
of
that
code
line
by
line
and
understand,
what's
happening,
and
we
didn't
have
time
to
ship
that
feature
in
two
days,
so
it
didn't
get
out.
It
was
just.
It
was
just
done
and
I
think
that
that
was
the
most
painful
thing
or
like
when
you're
trying
to
do
something
really
important
and
you
cannot
move
forward.
You
just
get
completely
stuck.
There
was
a
lot
of
obscenities
yelled
there
were.
You
know
everyone
was
very
upset
there
is.
B
This
was
a
waste
of
six
months
and
when
you're
you
know
trying
to
move
a
company
forward.
You
know
that
six
months
time
wasted
is
really
really
important
and
no
one
wants
to
be
in
that
position
and
so
I
think
I.
You
know,
thought
you
know
this
has
happened.
You
know
two
three,
four
five
six
times
during
my
career
like
why?
B
Don't
we
understand
our
code
and
when
I
asked
that
question
I
started,
I'm
an
insatiably,
curious
person
and
so
I
started
looking
for
a
solution
and
the
reason
why
is
because
I
think
that
the
way
that
we
read
and
understand
code
hasn't
changed
in
50
years?
The
only
way
we
do
it
is
to
read
all
of
the
code
line
by
line
and
Visually
mentally
come
up
with
a
mental
model
in
our
heads
about
how
the
code
works.
B
That
is
the
slowest
manual
most
unscalable
way
to
understand
how
our
code
Works
in
visualizations
are
the
fastest.
You
can
grok
a
mental
model
very
quickly
because
you're
already
doing
it
in
your
head.
Wouldn't
it
just
be
nice
if
the
code
did
it
and
that's
kind
of
what
awesome.
A
B
Yeah
we
do,
we
can
actually
visualize,
you
know
a
bunch
of
different
services
and
spans.
We,
you
know,
we
work
with
GitHub.
We
work
with
segment
I
think
we
have
like
some
HubSpot
things.
You
know
to
make
sure
that
we,
you
know,
make
sure
we
follow
up
with
all
the
people
who
are
really
excited
to
try
our
products
and
so
really
really.
B
You
know
we're
constantly
adding
new
things
all
the
time.
Okay,
so
yeah
and.
B
So
if
you
plug
in
service
Maps,
yes,
but
we
do
have
some
restrictions,
but
we
are
actually
expanding
so
right
now,
if
you've
got
GitHub,
repo
and
you've
got
an
APM
like
data
Docker,
open,
Telemetry
or
if
or
if
you
have
nothing,
that's
also
perfectly
reasonable
for
how
to
we
do
a
combination
of
static
and
dynamic
analysis
to
be
able
to
create
the
visualizations
that
we
have,
and
so,
if
you've
got
one
of
those
then
good
to
go
and
if
not,
we
are
expanding
very
rapidly.
A
So
we've
just
gone
a
little
bit
into
the
conversation
again
like,
as
you
guys
are
listening.
If
you
have
questions
for
shanea,
please
feel
free
to
throw
them
in
the
chat,
we'll
make
sure
we
get
them
asked
whether
it's
about
the
product
or
the
company
or
her
journey
as
well
as
we
continue
to
talk
about
like
how
she's
started
and
continued
this
path
with
code,
C
and
others
so
yeah
throw
them
in
the
chat,
love
to
see
them.
If
we
get
any.
A
Thank
you
guys
so
Shania
you
mentioned
being
insatiably,
curious,
yeah
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
wanted
to
ask
you
about,
and
you
did
a
really
good
job
of
creating
the
Segway,
for
me
is
what
are
some
of
the
traits
that
you
think
are
most
important
when
you're
going
to
be
a
Founder,
make
that
decision
and
start
your
company.
B
A
few
there's
there
there
are
two
one
is
to
be
curious
about
how
all
the
things
work,
because
there
is
going
to
come
a
time
that
you're
going
to
need
to
make
a
decision
that
you
know
nothing
about
that.
Just
kind
of
is
the
nature
of
of
you
know
getting
a
startup
off
the
ground
and
so
being
able
to
really
think
about.
You
know
how
do
I,
how
how
do
I
learn
something?
B
How
do
I
learn
enough
to
be
dangerous
and
kind
of
move
forward
with
very
little
information
is
a
very
helpful,
helpful,
trait
and
I
think
the
second
is
kind
of
the
flip
side
of
that.
Not
just
you
know,
being
curious
about
how
things
work,
but
also
what
happens
when
there
that
you
need
to
internally,
in
your
mind,
in
your
heart
and
soul,
that
you
need
to
change
I
think
as
a
Founder.
B
Every
insecurity
that
I've
ever
had
I've
had
to
push
through
every
single
thing
that
I
wasn't
good
at
I'm
like
oh
I'm.
Never
gonna
have
to
do
that.
I've
absolutely
had
to
do
and
I
think
the
universe
was
like
I'm
gonna
make
you
do
that
thing,
that
you're
terrible
at
and
it's
and
it's
really
sometimes
really
painful,
and
so
how
do
you
self-reflect?
How
do
you
evolve?
B
How
do
you
take
time
for
yourself
to
you
know,
get
that
mental
space
to
grow
and
work
through
whatever
you
know,
issues
you
have
as
a
human
because
we're
all
humans,
starting
these
companies
right
and
so
I
think
that
that's
been
really
really
important
to
me.
You're
there
are
going
to
be
mistakes,
I've
definitely
made
a
ton,
and
so
how
do
you
you
know
work
through
that
evolve?
How
are
you
self-reflective?
How
do
are
you
empathetic
to
other
people
in
their
situations,
while
also
doing
what's
right
for
the
company?
B
A
Absolutely
we've
got
a
comment
from
Juan
twos
as
a
new
founder.
All
this
is
fascinating.
That's
amazing,
to
hear
like
that's
exactly
why
we
do
start
it
up
Wednesday,
that's
exactly
why
we
want
to
mix
it
up
with,
as
as
much
as
we
bring
on
technical
Founders
to
go
through
all
the
code,
and
so
you
can
see
the
back
end
of
everything.
A
Conversations
like
this
are
super
important
as
well,
because
as
new
Founders
as
potential
Founders
I
think
all
of
us
have
the
potential
to
be
a
business
owner
or
founder
at
some
point
in
our
lives,
whether
it's
going
to
be
a
small
Enterprise
or
a
large
Enterprise
that
we
undergo
so
yes,
we're
happy
to
see
that
it's
super
helpful.
We've
got
a
question
here.
B
Honestly,
the
there's
there's
this,
you
know,
there's
this
thing
with
engineering
and
being
a
technical,
founder
and
being
you
know,
being
a
Founder
right
in
general,
where
you're
trying
to
you
know,
move
the
company
forward,
but
there's
something
blocking
you
and
you
don't
necessarily
have
full
control
over
it
or
maybe
you
do
and
you're
the
one
debugging
I
think
that
you
know
there
is
that
that
pull?
B
That
is,
that
cognitive
dissonance
of
oh
gosh
every
day,
every
minute
matters
and
this
thing
isn't
solved
yet
and
I
think
that
it's
that's
just
gonna
happen
and
there's
a
little
bit
of
patience
that
you
need,
but
also
you
have
to
know
like
okay,
when
to
stop
being
patient
and
I.
Think
the
I
think
the
in
the
interim
to
give
you
Solace.
You
know
there
are
some
problems
where
you
can
come
up
with
Creative
Solutions
right.
B
Maybe
there
are
some
advisors
that
you
can
kind
of
pull
in,
or
maybe
there's
some.
You
know
Consultants
that
you
can
pull
in
to
kind
of
help.
If,
if
you
know
you
and
the
dev,
you
know
can't
figure
it
out,
there's
always
a
lot
of
Creative
Solutions
or
you
just
work
through
it
laughs.
B
Those
are
kind
of
the
options.
Absolutely.
A
Sometimes
you
come
up
to
a
problem
and
it's
a
problem
that
you
just
have
to
work
through
or
it's
unsolvable
in
that
capacity.
Right,
like
you
said
you,
you
have
to
come
up
with
a
creative
way
to
work
around
it
and
it's
maybe
it's
not
the
solution
that
you
thought
you
were
going
to
have,
but
it's
the
solution,
that's
necessary
for
that
problem.
A
Totally
awesome,
so
I
am
super
excited
to
learn
more
about
well
a
lot
of
things,
but
one
thing
that
is
a
really
important
conversation
that
I
think
needs
to
be
had
is
kind
of
the
dynamic
between
Founders
and
how
that
kind
of
starts.
A
A
technical
co-founder
Tech,
or
would
you
call
yourself
a
regular
co-founder.
A
Normally,
there's
a
technical
co-founder,
the
one
that
does
most
of
the
most,
if
not
all,
of
the
code
at
the
beginning
and
then
there's
a
more
a
business,
not
that
the
technical
co-founders
aren't
business
savvy.
But
you
know
the
more
business
strategy
centered
co-founder,
so
you
guys
have
two
technical
co-founders,
which
is
awesome.
How
did
you
guys
meet
and
then
start
to
kind
of
create
that
delineation
of
responsibilities
like
who's,
going
to
take
care
of
what
at
the
very
beginning,
to
get
to
this
point
totally.
B
B
But
you
know,
that's
kind
of
you
know
the
nature
of
things.
Someone
has
to
do
the
go
to
market
stuff,
and
if
I
could
leave
any
advice,
it
would
be
don't
build
anything,
don't
write
a
single
line
of
code
until
you
get
the
kind
of
go
to
market
functions
at
least
hypothesize
and
tested.
B
It's
been
really
really
important.
I
think
our
meeting
was
a
little
bit
unique,
I'm,
not
sure.
If
that's.
If
anyone
can
replicate
this,
we
happen
to
be
married
and
so
basically
I
had
the
idea
for
cozy
and
I
was
supposed
to
start
it
with
some
co-founders
from
Docker
and
I
had
the
idea
late
2019,
but
we
were
supposed
to
start
actually
start
the
company.
B
You
know
early
2020.,
we
all
know
I,
don't
need
to
rehash
whatever
I
don't
need
to
rehash
that
so
basically
I
just
kept.
We
decided
to
the
the
two
people
that
I
was.
You
know
deciding
to
start
the
company
with
decided
that
they
now
that
time
wasn't
the
best
time
to
start
a
company,
and
so
I
ended
up.
You
know
kind
of
moving
forward
with
the
idea
on
my
own
and
I
happened
to
have
a
brilliant
engineer
in
my
house.
B
That
I
would
like
ask
questions
to
what
we
were.
What
I
was
imagining
doing
was
not
technically
possible
in
before
no
one
had
ever
done
it
before.
There
was
no,
not
not
just
copying
Twitter
at
this
point
right
so
like
it
was
I.
It
needed
to
brainstorm
to
try
to
figure
out.
How
do
you
scale
visualizing
code,
and
so
we
just
were
having
so
much
fun
that
we
decided
to
start
the
company
together
and
I.
Think
that
how
we
delineate
responsibilities
is
relevant
for
any
co-founding
relationship.
B
We
essentially
have
set
up
very
early
on
a
few
key
decisions
which
person
was
going
to
have
the
final
word
or
the
final
decision-making
power
in
each
of
the
areas,
and
if
you
have
that
up
front-
and
if
you
agree
upon
that
up
front,
the
other
one
can
provide,
you
know
advice
to
the
other,
but
if
you're
in
their
area
you
kind
of
leave
the
ultimate
decision
up
to
them
and
I
think
that,
just
that
one
decision
on
who
makes
the
final
call
gets
you
a
long
way
yeah.
B
The
other
thing
is
proper.
Community
is
good
communication.
There's
this
book
that
we,
both
love,
called
crucial
conversations
and
when
you
can
have
and
work
through
important,
really
critical,
really
hard
conversations
that
will
get
you
the
rest
of
the
way.
Because
then
you
know
egos
would
be
you
know
less
involved.
You
know
arguments
would
be
less
involved.
You
can
actually
resolve
them.
You
know
in
a
you
know
in
a
very
clear
way,
and
you
have
a
framework
and
a
structure
to
tackle
those
things
and
I.
B
Think
the
the
two
co-founders
of
Eventbrite
were
also
married,
and
they
also
recommended
the
same
book
of
how
you
kind
of
solve
those
challenges
because
they
are
going
to
come
up.
It's
inevitable.
They
will
founding
company
is
really
hard,
and
so
those
two
decisions
are
really
really
helpful.
C
A
So
you
mentioned
that
their
people
can
be
serial
entrepreneurs
and
I've
lauded
the
the
accomplishments
that
you've
already
had
so
far.
Is
this
your
first
try
at
a
company
and
if
so
like
what
are
some
of
those
key
takeaways
from
the
very
beginning
stages
of
like
you
know
the
you
push
get
up
against
a
problem
and
you
decide
yeah
I
want
to
keep
going
through,
or
maybe
like
some
of
the
other
co-founders
or
the
potential
co-founders
when
you
go.
B
Of
the
key
takeaways
again
are
like
getting
the
go
to
market
stuff,
like
laid
out
at
least
a
hypothesis
and
figuring
out
a
way
to
test
it,
and
this
is
you
know
who
your
ICP
is.
What
value
are
you
providing
to
them?
How
are
you
going
to
reach
them
like
actually
try
to
reach
them,
and
then
what
does
that
process
look
like
to
get
their
feedback
talking
to
them
about
their
top
problems
and
I
think
figuring
out
those
you
know
you
can
attack,
you
can
attack
it
two
ways.
B
One
is
first
kind
of
starting
with
that
and
getting
validation
that
you
can
reach
that
group
of
people
or
you
can
decide
to
build
something
and
try
to
wedge
it
and
figure
out
where
it
fits.
I
would
definitely
take
the
former
and
I
think
that
you
know
how
you
one
key
thing
that
I
didn't
know
that
was
going
to
be
super
important
in
today's
kind
of
digital
landscape.
Is
writing.
How
do
you
write
engaging
content?
How
do
you
build
an
audience?
B
How
do
you,
you
know,
bring
all
of
those
details
and
marketing
copy
and
clearly
articulating
your
ideas
to
other
people?
B
B
I
think
that
you
know
I
think
the
other
kind
of
key
takeaway
is
the
importance
of
having
what
I
call
flexible
conviction
which
is
like
you
have
a
strong
opinion,
but
loosely
held
right,
because
you
know
you
need
to
have
confidence,
but
you're
gonna
be
confident
in
the
face
of
like
no
information.
And
so
how
do
you
have
that
cognitive
dissonance,
it's
a
daily
struggle
but
like
having
that
and
I
think
that
kind
of
goes
back
to
being
really
clear
on
like
who
you're
targeting
how
you're
going
to
reach
them?
B
What
value
you're
going
to
provide?
And
how
do
you
articulate
your
ideas
clearly
that
just
kind
of
seeps
into
a
lot
of
different
things.
A
So
you
said
a
couple
of
things
that
I
want
to
like
double
play
and
underline
and
like
Circle,
one
of
the
things
actually
was
I
think
you
mentioned
it
as
maybe
a
quote
or
a
saying
that
someone
gave
but
same
thing.
For
me
when
I
worked
at
one
point
out,
we
were
here
all
the
time.
A
Jeff
Bezos
would
say
something
to
the
effect
of
be
stubborn
about
the
goal
but
flexible
about
how
you
get
there
so
like
you
want
to
be
ruthlessly
prioritizing
towards
like
what
it
is
that
you're
shooting
for
regardless
of
you
know
they
should.
They
would
show
like
a
newspapers,
Tech
newspapers
from
like
1999
and
the
cover
would
be
something
if
I'm
remembering
correctly,
it
was
like
what
is
AWS
and
why
would
why?
Would
they
start
it?
And
you
know
the
story
that
we
got
was
like.
You
know.
A
He
knew
that
the
building
blocks
that
we
were
using
for
amazon.com
was
going
to
be
something
that
could
power
the
world
and
everybody
thought
it
was
crazy.
But
you
know
there
are
ways
that
you
can
continue
to
fight
through
all
of
those
kind
of
distractions
to
get
to
where
you
want
to
be,
but
you
have
to
be
willing
to
be
nimble
and
and
adapt
to
it.
So
yes
to
that
definitely
I.
B
A
Absolutely
you're
doing
something
right,
I
would
say,
and
then
you
also
said
like
find,
find
your
audience
like
when
you're
building
find
your
audience
like
understand
who
they
are
elicit
feedback
from
them.
The
I
think
the
the
phrase
that
I
heard
the
most
as
a
Founder
was
product
Market
fit
it's
like
I,
always
product
Market
fit
it's
and
it
gets
kind
of
redundant
at
times.
A
But
it's
really
important
to
what
that
really
means
is
understanding
where
your
place
is
in
the
market
and
who
those
customers
are
and
what
their
problem
is
and
how
you're
going
to
solve
it.
And
when
you
start
to
understand
that,
then
you
can
put
lines
of
code
together
and
build
your
product
and
start
to
put
a
prototype
together,
after
maybe
you've
kind
of
Mechanical
Turk
something
to
kind
of
test
and
understand
right,
but
definitely
understanding
who
your
audience
is
that
you're
trying
to
reach
and
eliciting
their
feedback
is
important.
B
Totally
I
think
what
I
you
know.
I
really
learned
was
that
product
Market
fit.
Is
this
weird
elusive?
No
one
can
pin
it
down.
No
one
has
a
clear
definition.
Yeah
everybody's
is
different
of
what
that
means,
but
the
way
that
I
have
seen
it
is,
you
know
most
people
get
the
product
right,
they
don't
get.
The
market
part
right
and
Market
can
mean.
Market
basically
means
a
group
of
people
right.
Can
you
get
your
product
to
said
a
group
of
people
and
what
most
people?
B
That
kind
of
underlying
you
know
that
they
don't
mention
in
product
Market
fit,
is
the
fit
part
which
is
they
pay
you
money
for
said
products
right,
and
so
how
do
you
do
the
marketing
and
the
sales
portion,
particularly
right
now
in
this
you
know
in
this
environment,
is
really
critical
and
as
Tech
as
a
technical
founder
like
it,
market
and
marketing,
is
hard
if
you're,
if
you're
not
used
to
doing
it.
It's
like
you
know,
just
it's
just
like
engineering.
You've
got
all
these
other
kinds
of
Engineers.
B
You've
got
all
these
different
types
of
marketers
and
it
can
kind
of
feel
very
very.
Like
skeevy
a
bit,
but
you
do
provide
value
to
a
group
of
people
and
you
can
solve
their
problems.
Learning
the
mechanics
learning
the
foundations
of
the
market
fit
part
is,
is
a
thing.
A
Absolutely
is,
and
you
bring
up
an
interesting
point
and
I
want
to
ask
more
about
like
how
are
you
or
how
have
you
found
marketing
your
your
business
to
other
people,
because
it's
not
a
very
sexy
thing
like
if
you're
a
developer
you're
like
man.
This
is
awesome,
but
outside
of
that
you're
kind
of
like
hoping
people
kind
of
get
it
and
understand
like
hey.
B
So
I
think
that
not
everybody
is
gonna
get
it
not
everybody
is
going
to
not
everyone
is
going
to
get
the
thing
that
you're
trying
to
build.
Not
everyone
is
going
to
think
that
it's
the
most
important
problem.
B
You
know
for
whatever
reason
and
I
think
that's
why
getting
very
clear
on
who
you're
targeting
is
really
important,
because
then
you
you
do
that
in
the
hopes
of
that
group
of
people
is
going
to
think
that
this
is
a
really
really
important
and
so,
and
even
within
that
group
you
not
every
one
of
those
people
are
going
to
think
is
really
important.
I
think
it's
getting
really
clear
on
your
ideas
and
articulating
the
benefits
and
the
value
of
like
what
does
their
day.
Look
like
post
your
product.
B
What
what
is
the
value?
There's
always
this
double-edged
sword
of
like
providing
metrics
and
providing
you
know
numerical
like
data,
to
show
that
your
product
is
good,
but
you
need
people
to
try
it
out
in
order
to
get
the
data.
So
there's
this
chicken
and
egg
problem
and
you
need
to
have
enough
built
in
order
for
them
to
try
it
out.
There's
this
whole
there's
a
whole
thing
and
I
think
that
that's
kind
of
what
what
what
has
really
resonated
with
me.
My
my
coach
told
me
it's
like
that.
B
Catch-22
is
the
exact
place
that
every
company
has
to
work
through.
There's
a
book
called
the
messy
middle.
If,
regardless,
you
just
have
to
find
your
way
through,
it
there's
no
easy
way
to
find
your
way
through
it.
There's
no
straightforward
way
of
finding
your
way
for
it.
You're
going
to
have
hypotheses
and
they're
going
to
fail.
B
You
just
have
to
do
a
bunch
of
things
and
figure
out
your
way
of
what's
matching
up
in
your
head
and
get
through
the
mess
middle
because
every
company
goes
through
it
and
it
just
it's
just
one
of
those
things.
You
know
yeah.
A
And,
what's
important
to
note
like
for
for
a
couple
of
people
that
said
that
there
were
new
Founders
on
here,
or
maybe
even
people
that
haven't
said
anything
about
being
a
new
founder
but
they're
thinking
about
it
like
you're,
not
going
through
these
things
alone,
like
when
you're
a
Founder,
you
build
yourself
kind
of
like
an
army
of
people
army,
whether
they
be
advisors
or
I,
use
a
co-founders
or
mentors
of
yours
from
previous
walks
of
life
like
when
you're
going
through
this
messy
middle,
as
you
called
it
like.
A
There
are
plenty
of
people
that
both
have
the
experience
and
have
the
experience
with
that
specifically
or
just
have
the
experience
in
life
to
be
able
to
help
you
through
that.
So
it's
daunting.
It's
definitely
difficult,
but
you
know,
as
a
Founder
you're
gonna
build
yourself
a
team
of
people
that
are
going
to
be
able
to
help
you
through
that
and
kind
of
detangle,
some
of
the
mess
a
bit
to
help
you.
A
So
we've
got
a
few
minutes
and
like
this
has
been
so
awesome
for
me
and
I
think
our
audience
as
well,
because
I
I,
like
in
a
conversation
like
this
to
like
when
it's
quiet
at
the
dinner
table
like
everyone's
eating
yeah.
A
There
are
no
questions
because
we're
we're
doing
a
really
good
job,
I
think
and
you're
doing
a
really
good
job
of
explaining
what
that
process
is
like
I
know,
I'm,
learning
a
whole
lot
myself,
so
I
want
to
flip
it
back
to
you
and
to
kind
of
talk
about
code,
C
and
what's
kind
of
next,
for
you
guys.
Where
can
we
start
to
see
you
and
and
get
to
You
Know
download
your
product
and
whatever
else
like?
How
can
we
get
to
see
more
of
you
yeah.
B
Absolutely
you
can
just
go
to
koti.io
active
on
Twitter
for
the
moments.
A
B
I
think
that
you
know
if
anyone
is
interested
in,
you
know,
trying
cozy
getting
it
kind
of
set
up
from
day
Zero.
We
work
with
the
Microsoft
for
startups
program
as
well.
B
We've
seen
a
lot
of
really
great
feedback
of
like
how
do
you
get
code
visibility
set
up
from
day
Zero
of
your
startup,
preventing
a
lot
of
the
future
problems
that
literally
all
companies
with
code
go
through,
which
is
all
of
them,
which
is
how
do
I
understand
my
code
kind
of
getting
that
set
up
from
day
one
and
just
kind
of
have
it
running
in
the
background
can
be
incredibly
helpful
with
you
wrapping
your
head
around.
You
know,
you
know
how
do
I
decide
head
count.
B
You
know
when
you,
after
you
raise
money,
how
do
I
decide
like
who
needs
to
cover
what
area
of
the
code
base?
How
do
I
know
which
people
to
hire,
because
this
is
what
I'm
trying
to
to
figure
out
and
so
I
think
that
it
like
sign
up
for
cozy
at
cozy.io.
If
you
have
any
questions,
there's
a
chat
bubble
at
the
bottom
of
the
app.
It
goes
directly
to
my
cell
phone,
because
I
want
to
talk
to
literally
every
single
person.
A
Awesome
we've
got
a
couple
of
questions
before
we
go,
so
this
is
a
really
great
two
I
want
to
highlight
one
is:
could
you
suggest
some
good
resources
for
expanding
your
founder
team?
If
you
don't
have
to
have
married
them.
B
Yeah
I
think
you
know,
being
active
communities
find
you
know,
being
friends
with
meaning
people
who
are
different
from
you.
Who
can
you
know,
help
with
different
sides
of
the
business
I?
Think
that
you
know
there's
a
lot
of
I
think
there
was
a
the
lady
who
started
Modern
Health.
B
She
did
co-founder
dating
she
had
this,
like
136
questionnaire
of
when
she
was
trying
to
start
covana.
There
are
a
lot
of
resources
for
finding
a
co-founder,
but
again
like
how
do
you
access
a
new
person
right?
How
do
you
make
friends
and
meet
them?
B
This
is
you
know
it's
hard,
it's
hard
to
get
into
a
co-founder
relationship,
and
so
building
that
I
think
that
there
are
some
actual
programs
like
on
deck
that
you
can
join
to
find
your
you
know,
founder
Community,
founder
communities
are
really
easy
and
fast
to
join
so
definitely
join
a
bunch
in
meet
some
new
potential
founders.
A
I
would
also
say,
like,
as
you
build
your
network
of
people,
whether
it
be
advisors
and
mentors
as
you
start
to
build,
they
will
have
because
they're
plugged
into
those
communities,
as
you
said,
they'll
have
ideas
of
of
people
or
former
Founders
or
current
people
that
are
looking
to
be
co-founders
at
their
disposal
as
well.
So
as
you
build
that
Community
people
will
start
to
find
you
by
that
second
and
third
degree
of
separation
sort
of
thing
as
well.
A
B
Did
I
say:
yes,
yes,
I
think
it
as
a
also
a
technical
first
founder.
It
is
Inc.
It
will
make
everything
so
much
easier.
It
will
make
coding
easier.
It
will
make
product
development
easier.
It
will
make
growth
easier
startups,
really
don't
fail
because
the
product
is
bad.
Typically,
they
fail
because
they
didn't
get
proper
traction
and
so
the
earlier
you
can
really
work
through
all
of
those
details
on
the
marketing
side
and
getting
access
to
that
group
of
people.
B
You
can
build
a
really
clear,
specific
product
that
solves
a
problem
and
it's
not
going
to
be
easy,
but
it's
a
hundred
percent
necessary
awesome,
so
doing
it
as
early
early
as
possible
from
Day
Zero.
A
B
I
this
sounds
a
little
cliche,
but
really
pick
something
if
you're
that
you're
gonna
start
a
company
in
that
you
can
be
passionate
about
for
the
next
10
years.
Right
and
I.
Think
people
like
oh,
follow
your
passions
and
that
kind
of
drives
me
crazy,
but
like
what
are
I
think
a
better
way
to
articulate.
B
That
is
what
are
the
things
that
you
can
be
excited
about
for
the
literal
next
10
years,
because
that's
how
long
it's
going
to
take
and
so
there's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
ups
there's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
downs,
it's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
challenges,
and
so
are
you
so
passionately
driven
to
solve
that
particular
problem
that
all
of
the
other
challenges
will
just
kind
of
Fall
by
the
wayside?
That's
where
you
should
start
your
startup.
B
That's
an
X
question,
so
I
I
will
tell
you
my
story,
so
I
I
had
the
idea,
for
you
know
the
the
startup
at
the
end
of
2018,
my
pre
four,
like
previous
people,
wanted
to
start
a
company
didn't
join.
I
was
working
on
the
idea,
nights
and
weekends
I
actually
took
a
different
job
as
well.
So
I
was
working
on
code,
C
nights
and
weekends.
In
addition
to
a
day,
job
and
I
personally
think
that
it's
great
I
trying
to
bootstrap
a
company.
B
You
know
until
you
validated
a
bunch
of
things
and
you
have
no
income.
Just
add
this.
Actually,
maybe
you
operate
well
in
that
kind
of
stress,
but
you
know
you
don't
want
to
end
up.
B
You
know
in
a
bad
situation
later,
and
so
my
I
think
that
for
me
it
was
the
right
decision,
then
I
happen
to
raise
money
while
I
was
for
code
C,
while
I
had
a
full-time
job
and
I
stayed
at
my
job
two
months
later,
like
post,
raising
money
that
I
do
not
recommend
everything
moved
so
quickly.
B
Everything
moved
so
fast
that
I
didn't
realize
that
after
you
raised
money,
people
are
probably
want
to
talk
to
you
like
during
business
hours
when
you
have
a
full-time
job,
and
so
that
I
don't
recommend
that,
but
I
do
think
that
working
your
job
while
you're
trying
to
validate
you,
know
the
getting
all
the
marketing
things
getting
your
first
kind
of
product
kind,
of
getting
everything
together
having
a
full-time
job
also
gives
you
some
flexibility.
If
you
want
to
put
some
money
aside
to,
you,
know,
hire
a
contractor.
B
If
you
want
to
run
some
experiments,
if
you
want
to
you
know,
do
that
sort
of
thing,
as
opposed
to
always
not
moving
your
you
know
your
company
forward
because
of
you
know
not
raising
funding
or
anything
like
that,
and
so
there's
always
some
some
trade-offs
and
some,
but
you
do
what
works
for
you.
Essentially,
yes,.
A
I
I
and
I
I
would
plus
one
that
as
well
do
what
works
for
you,
but
I.
Also
when
I
started,
my
company
like
did
it
with
a
full-time
job
and
you
chose
weekends.
I
chose
nights
so
after
I
would
close
my
laptop
at
five
and
at
the
time
I
had
kids.
So
I
would
do
daddy
time
from
like
five
to
seven
thirty
and
then
like
from
eight
o'clock
to
2.
A.M
was
like
startup
time
and
I
would
have
Shark
Tank
on
in
the
background.
C
A
It
is
working
and
doing
your
thing
so
yeah
that
definitely
you
do
what
works
for
you,
but
if
you
can
work
while
you're
building,
so
that
you've
got
that
flexibility
for
for
things
that
might
come
up
and-
and
you
can
bootstrap
for
as
long
as
possible
before
getting
that
raise,
that's
that's
the
way
to
do
it
yeah.
This
has
been
amazing.
Thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us
codec.io.
Remember
if
you
guys
want
to
check
it
out
and
yes,
we
will
see
you
guys
next
time
on
start
it
up
Wednesday.
Thank
you.