GitHub GitHub Presents • Passion Projects LIVE (Full Length Talks), 18 Jul 2013

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From YouTube: Passion Projects (Live) 5: Jessica Hische (Procrastiworking)

Description

The 5th episode of the Passion Projects series, featuring Jessica Hische. Jessica is known for her personal projects Daily Drop Cap and the Should I Work for Free? flowchart as well as her work for clients like Wes Anderson, Penguin Books, and Google. She is currently serving on the Type Directors Club board of directors, has traveled the world speaking about lettering and illustration, and has probably consumed enough coffee to power a small nation.

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A

♪ [funky soul] ♪.

A

Thanks for joining us and without further ado, jessica, hisch., ♪, [funky, soul] ♪.

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I re-outfitted myself in the git hub bathroom. so,. Thank you sonia for providing such a lovely dress for free for people to wear.

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and also, I think, not actually for people to wear, for her to wear on fancy fridays., but I washed in the bathroom, and they were like, "the bathroom's great." walked into the second stall, and there's all those crazy things about condoms and babies, and ryan gosling., and then I walked out and immediately saw this sparkly dress in front of me, and I was like, "got to put that on!'.

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And then, every color of eyeshadow is also available here for you to wear, so, anybody that has access to the ladies' restroom, and wants to have crazy, eyeshadow on,. That's a thing you could be doing.

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So,, I do a lot of public speaking,, so I don't want this talk to be too talky,, because I like that, it's all nice and casual, and we can have conversations afterwards, but,. I love the idea of talking about passion projects since I'm a such a major "problem-haver".

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Of passion, projects, almost.- I am sort of compulsively always working.

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On things that I feel like working on, instead of what I should be working on,, but I always find time for the things I should be working. On., so,, anyway, I'll just begin by talking.

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About "procrastiworking" in general,, which is kind of a term that I ended up, coming up with as the umbrella thing for the work that I do when I should be doing other work.

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And, it's funny because my friend mig is here from chicago, who just happened to be in town,, and I sort of first was able to understand.

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This whole side work, passion, nonsense that I end up. Doing,.

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Because of a video series that he was doing as a passion project on the side.

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So, he had this project called, "humble pied,", which is still up and about, though,, not actively added to,.

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I think, at this point, in which he just asked people there's all sorts of blogs that do this now,, but this was just 2009, so, early on.

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That asked you, "if. You could give one piece of advice to people,.

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What would it be?" and, my piece of advice, was, "the work you do while you procrastinate, is the work you should be doing for the rest of your life." and of course, like anything that you write down, or tell people, or post to the internet,. It was taken in every which wrong way,.

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So I had a bunch of a-holes on twitter being like, "so. I should just masturbate and play goldeneye for the rest of my life?".

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Which is, of course,, like every single thing you ever write, online, people misread in every what way, read, however, they want.

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But, I tried to keep it light. my response, was, "if you get paid to masturbate,.

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You should absolutely do that for the rest of your life.".

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Because,, why not?, I feel like there's a whole field, called, "being paid to masturbate," or "pornography,", or something like that., but anyway,. This whole idea of working on the things.

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That you want to be working on, isn't a unique idea.

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It's just one of those things that sounds really selfish, until you have better understanding about what it is. to think about, always working on the thing you want to be working on.

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Or when you have that feeling in your gut like, "this is what I have to do right: now,, because if don't work on it,, it's like creative food-poisoning, and I have to just get it out. and if I don't get it out,, I'm going to sit here all day and have a sour stomach about it..

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It's just, a lot of people can't grasp it because they have really normal jobs.. We don't have normal jobs.. I would imagine that being at github is not a normal job.. You guys have dresses in your bathroom.

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But I was always kind of a "procrastiworker." and that's why, you know, I,, I and please, all shitty talks start with a photo.

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Of the speaker as a child. so,, I'm prefacing- this won't be up long.

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but as a, [laughs] as a kid even,, I always sort of knew what I wanted to do, because I never had another thing that I wanted to do..

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I would draw for like eight or ten hours a day, and my brother was a complete hellion when we were little kids., but I was super easy. I would just be in the corner.

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you'd pump me full of art, supplies,, I'm good to go..

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So when I was in school,, thankfully I didn't meet any resistance from my parents when it came to doing art stuff.. They just pumped me full of art supplies, and let me to do what I wanted to do..

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I didn't get any major feedback of like, "you shouldn't go to art school because no one gets jobs out of art school." because they had to deal with my brother. [chuckle].

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So it was easy [laugh]..

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But I started to sort of see in the work that I was doing,, the stuff that I was focusing on, and the stuff that I felt that I was more passionate, about, and more interested in.. So when I was in art school,, so this was just some drawings.

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From my freshman year of college., I have really loved to draw shiny things with a number two h pencil., I don't know,, it was a thing..

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I also sort of can't draw. I hold a pencil like a five-year-old, holds a crayon.

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I get nail marks in my palm from holding it too tight, and I get tennis elbow like nobody's business,, so I mostly work on a computer.. The computer has been my "art savior.".

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But when I was a sophomore,, I went to tyler school of art and they sort of encourage you to take a ton of electives..

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You can't actually declare your major until the end of your sophomore year, at the school that I went. To. so freshman year was all foundation. Art, sophomore year was all just experimental stuff., but I found out that I always thought that I was going to be an artist.

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I went to school to draw., that's what I went to school for., but then I took a graphic design class, and I found myself procrastinating from all of my fine art to work to work on my graphic design, projects.

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and, of course, when you're a sophomore and you're taking graphic design,. All your fine art, friends that are doing performance, art naked,, covered in jelly,, they're, all like, "what, a sellout!".

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I was like, "whatever.. I want to be a sculptor too.", but I couldn't ignore the fact that all I wanted to do was to do these design. Projects.

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so,. I just threw myself headfirst into the design program, and ended up just loving every second of it., and I was that total asshole in school,.

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That did five posters instead of one because they were just really into it., and it took until my basically walking down the aisle, graduating.

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For all of my classmates to realize that I wasn't just the word's most intense brown-noser., I just really loved what I was doing.

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So when I graduated,, I ended up working for louise fili,, who runs a studio in new york, that focuses on restaurant packaging, and identity. Stuff.

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And before that, I was interning at a place in philly that did a bunch of illustration, and book design, and stuff, like that.

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So I really ending up falling in love with illustration, and how the illustration world worked. all my friends in philadelphia, were illustrators,. They were all cool..

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They all liked to just hang out.

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and then,. Louise fili offered me a job,, because I randomly sent her a series of postcards that I made.

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And I freaked out,, I had a meltdown., I didn't think I was going to move to new york.. I thought I was just going to hang out with my illustrator friends in philly forever, because,, unlike san fransisco,,.

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Philadelphia is a freelancer's haven., it is amazing.. Everything is so cheap.

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There's no businesses, ever. [chuckle], I mean, there are,, but not really..

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Here,, it's like every single person works at a start-up.. It's really funny.

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during the day,. It's like a fucking ghost town in this city.

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Everybody's just either down here in soma,.

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The mission is really just all only homeless. People during the day.

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But it's interesting to be here, and be in this field that isn't the "everything field.".

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In brooklyn, everybody's, a freelancer.

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everybody's just around all day.

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and in philly it was like that too,.

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So moving to new york was a major change. I didn't foresee happening.

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Because I wanted to be a freelance illustrator, like all of my friends, were.

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but,, it was while I worked for louise, that I ended up sort of discovering all this hand-lettering stuff, and it was what I was really passionate about..

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I did a lot of lettering in school,, but I didn't really know what it was about..

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I just sort of did it because I was too broke to buy fonts,.

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And [chuckles]: that's why people do stuff sometimes,.

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Because they're broke and resourceful.

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and also, because,, I don't know about you guys,, but stealing is really hard..

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You have to actively do things to steal.

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That's why I just buy shit on itunes all the time, because I'm too lazy., if I wasn't lazy, I would probably steal everything.

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Not now that I make real money, but as a broke student,, I totally would've stolen everything., but I'm lazy,. So I itunes things.

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So, anyway,, while I was working for louise,, because it was a really tiny studio,, I ended up doing a lot of freelance work just to make ends meet..

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Whenever you are working for a small place,, they usually pay you in thanks and lunch.

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So, I got paid well enough,, but I was making like $34,000 a year living in new york city,, which is not much when the non-cockroachy apartments start at $800 a month with roommates that are 35 and sexually-addicted.

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That are really out and about.

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So, [laughs], so I was doing all this freelance work,.

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And in doing that,, I started discovering the kind of stuff that I was really interested in doing too,, because I loved graphic design, and I loved working for louise,, but I really loved the interaction of being an illustrator, and working with creatives all the time,.

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Instead of working with the end client..

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I noticed that a lot of the work that louise did, she was working with restauranteurs, and people that have never worked with designers, before. and,. If you're working with people that aren't used to working with designers, every single time that work with them,, it's like an educational process..

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You have to basically prove to them what your value is, and show them. What you're good at every single time, versus when you're an illustrator, you're hired to just kind of do your thing.

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You come in at that part of the project, you leave, and other people finish. It up,, which sounds really scary to people that are startupy that are like, "I want to be there for the whole thing." "I got to see it through." but,. As someone who can sort of like hand, things off,.

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And trust other creatives,, it feels like a way to collaborate constantly with other people.

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So while I was doing all this freelance illustration work,, I ended up trying to incorporate some of the lettering work, that I was doing. While I worked for louise, into my freelance illustration, work.

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so,, the slide on the right is this.

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I got hired by,, I forget. Even what magazine it was now.

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But,, it was an article about the teenage brain.. I think it was harvard business review, or something,, which is an awesome magazine.

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and I just drew a bunch of teenage stuff in a brain environment..

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It was really fun, and I started to just incorporate more and more of this hand-lettering into my illustration. Work. and the more people started. Seeing me do it, the more started, hiring me to do it., so that was sort of the first lesson that I ended up. Learning from doing all this freelance work, was like, "if, you don't prove to people what you want to do,.

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How are they going to know you want to do it?"? So that's like one of the first reasons why passion projects and side-projects sort of come about,, because there's something that you want to be doing,, but no one's paying you to do it right, now. and you have to show them that you want to do it before people will pay you to do it., so lettering became sort of my first passion project..

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It was the thing that I wanted to do, that I wasn't getting paid to do, and I had to show people that I was interested in it., so I started incorporating more and more lettering into my illustration work in order to get hired to do more lettering, work.

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and then, over time,, the more people started seeing it, I got hired for it over and over again.

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people love to hire specialists in things, because people love one-line bio's., who here spent more than three minutes thinking about what their twitter bio is?

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and it like, defines you in some way, whether it's some stupid, silly thing,.

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That means nothing,. It's still a thing that defines you and who you are., and when people introduce you at a party,, they introduce you by this bio,.

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Like, "oh,, this is my friend." "she works at github.". She does this,. She has a crazy dress in the bathroom." that becomes your bio.

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Forever sonia will be the crazy dress, lady that works at github. so, to me at least.. That's your one-line bio for me.

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So I started thinking about that, and that's really what matters.

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When it comes to being a professional and being a specialist.

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If you went to a party,, what would people say to introduce you as?.

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Hopefully it's not, "remember that video of that person running naked across the, whatever?". You don't want that to be your one-line bio.

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But, being like, "oh., she does lettering., she did this. blah bah blah.".

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Then,, all of a sudden, next time that someone else is at a party, and they're working on a logo project or something you get brought up as the person that they know. That does that thing.

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So,, more and more,, because lettering is such a niche thing, or at least was.

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Now more and more people are doing it.. I was the lettering person that everyone knew,, because I was just very friendly, and out and about, and went to a lot of shit,.

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And people started being like, "oh! jessica. Does that kind of stuff,?

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I guess we could hire her." and over time, I mean, that's kind of how networking happens.

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People do networking and they go out, and they're all weird, and businessy,.

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And handing out business cards. if you've ever gone to a party and witnessed someone actually.

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Trying to network, it's the most worst thing in the whole universe.

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If anyone is ever giving you more than one copy of their business, card,.

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That is the worst thing: ever. [suppressed laughter] I've had people give me five business cards at once., I'm like, "why. Do I need five of these?. I don't even need one., we've met,.

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If you write me on twitter,, we'll have met again., that's how we contact each other.

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But,, when you can sort of have networking just be you meeting people that you have.

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Similar interests,, which we all do, then, all of a sudden, you get to have.

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A presence within that community, as a person that does a specific thing.

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I know that for sure, at this company there's people that are.

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Specifically good at one thing: here,, and whenever you have a problem.

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In that zone, you talk to that person first.

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and that's sort of what happens in every single industry.

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so,. I ended up being able to work for a lot of really awesome clients, including.

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Wes anderson,, which was awesome. and,- that was just totally a random recommendation.

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From someone within their art team, because they were working with another calligrapher that was like,.

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"I'm, not a calligrapher,, I'm a letterer.", so there's a weird difference between those things and no one knows it..

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The difference is that calligraphers write and letterers draw,, which seems like.

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A completely weird thing to say,, but you have a specific kind of handwriting in the way.

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That you write, and you're really good at doing that. Handwriting., whether or not it looks good is up to everyone and yourself.

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But,, you can replicate that way of writing over and over again,.

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And that's what calligraphers do. they master several styles of writing, so that when someone calls upon them, and they say, "hey,, we need you to do.

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Our invitations," they're like, "boom!".

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And it's the same thing: every single time,, because they're super well-practiced,.

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It's crazy muscle, memory.. They know what they are. Doing.

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letterers are kind of feeling around in the dark. A lot of times.

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but,, it's good,, because the thing that unites our work is the methods.

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That we use to create it., so I work entirely in adobe, illustrator mostly, and then I use robo font.

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When I make fonts., but it's all vector., all my work is vector and that's what sort of unites the style of my work.

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There's also other things that unite the style of your work..

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I mean,. If you drew an apple, and you drew an apple, you'd know whose apple it was. you know., even though you're drawing the same subject matter,, it looks unique to you,.

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Because your artist's hand is in it no matter: what. but, letterers can work.

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In a lot of different styles,, unlike calligraphers, that usually master a few styles.

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So,, this was a really awesome project.. I could go in depth into it.

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I'm talking super fast to you. sorry. I'm--been biking around all day,.

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I'm wearing a sequin dress.

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But,, even through my professional career,, I started looking at what I was doing.

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When I was procrastinating, and figuring out where my passions lie.

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So, I share a studio now in the mission with another letterer., his name's erik marinovich. he's an awesome dude. he's way more awesome than I am in a lot of ways, and he's croatian,.

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And is very friendly and huggy.

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But, the kind of work that he's doing now, he does a lot of calligraphy.

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As well as lettering,, and I feel like he's actually better at crazy, illustrative lettering than I am at this point in my life,, because I have sort of gone into this path of being really interested in type design,.

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Which is a really different way of thinking,, and I find that I am now procrastinating from my lettering projects.

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By doing type design, projects, so--which says something, and says I should probably.

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Focus on doing type, design.

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but,, it's one of those arts that doesn't pay all that well, and people bitch about, and everyone wants to be like, "let's make an open-source font on github,", which people have told me. About. [laughs],.

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Someone actually the other day, wanted to take all of my daily drop caps and make.

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Them into css, and open-source it on github, so other people could also.

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Make them. so that we can make the whole thing faster.

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and I was like, "I'm licensing, those right now to other people. So we can not do that.

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But that's a noble idea.".

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I love the open internet, and all this stuff, and you guys are awesome, and everyone. I know uses github., it's great,, so don't worry,, you're cool.

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So,, I love type design, stuff right now, and I find myself procrastinating.

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On a lot of my lettering, work to work on type stuff, and it's just a very different way of thinking.. Instead of thinking in kind of a more macro way,, you think very micro..

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So it's all about these little minute changes that you're making,.

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That affect it as a whole,, instead of looking at the full picture,.

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Like the painting of the final thing and thinking of the presence that that has.

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So, you're always zooming in from macro to micro,, but it's so much more about.

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These little tiny details.

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and it's also a lot of this,, which not a lot of people, know about.

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So, type design is a super codey, thing, sort, of.

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Opentype is gross and looks like that.

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But, one of the original founders of--or, actually one of the first people.

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That wrote python, his brother was a type designer, or is a type-designer.

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They're both still alive. and so,, all the type design programs actually use python.

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As a secondary language, and people write plugins., I took a type design, course,.

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And actually had to take a python workshop over the weekend to try and figure out.

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How to start writing in python,, which I'm not very good at., it's a language. I have not mastered., but it's an interesting overlap between the nerd word and my nerd world.

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Make me 100% creatively, satisfied.], so anyway, back to passion, projecty stuff;,.

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While I love lettering and type,, it doesn't make me 100% creatively: satisfied.

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so,, there's a lot of reasons why people get into doing what they do.

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I love what I do for a living. there's nothing about it, that I don't love,.

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But I guess there is stuff about it that I don't love. [laughs].

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But,, when you're constantly doing stuff for clients,, it's really different.

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Than when you're doing stuff on your own,, so I like to think of my day, job, and my night job as the bruce wayne and batman situation.

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So everyone has their own bruce wayne.

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You have your bruce wayne that is like an awesome, dude, and bruce wayne.

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Runs a mansion and pays the bills, and hangs out with models. whatever.

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And then--but, you know, bruce wayne had a super awesome life and still didn't feel.

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Totally satisfied with his super awesome life,, so he made batman, and batman is his fun work,. His masked vigilante.

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So batman needs bruce wayne's endless cash to fund.

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His crime fighting side-project.

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so,. We all have this situation where we have our bruce wayne,.

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And we have our batman, and many people would try to tell you that you should be.

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Only batman, and that you should live without bruce wayne,, because we should always be doing what we love forever, and who needs bruce wayne?.

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You all need bruce wayne.. We all need to pay the bills..

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We all need to be able to pay for all the things that we want to do when we're a crazy masked, vigilante. so,. I don't think it's wrong to want to want.

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To do things to make money to support your side-projects,, even if you have a totally shit job, in which you make money that.

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Pays for all the fun stuff that you want to do., you guys don't have shit jobs because you're here,, which means that it's awesome.. I know that not everyone! That's here works at github, but,, you know,, you guys are probably all doing cool stuff. whatever., I'm assuming that., it's san fransisco..

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How can you live here and not be doing cool stuff?, but for me, being a letterer pays the bills.? It's still a super fun job.

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But being a maker of weird side projects is my masked vigilante time.

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I get to do stuff that no one wants to pay me to do,, at least for now,.

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Or stuff that maybe could never be profitable just because a lot of the things that I'm interested in are super niche stuff.

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That no one gives a fuck about, except for me. and that's okay.. It doesn't matter. maker of weird side-projects]. It's interesting to be in this city, where everyone is always thinking so big, all the time. everyone's always on this,.

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"What's, the next thing: that's happening?, I'm making a crazy start-up,.

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And I already have 400 employees," and I'm like, "I'm, going to make a website in four hours.". You know? [laughs] so,.

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Sometimes it's: okay, if your side-projects aren't these massive game, changers.

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Because,, no matter how much of a game--you know. everything.

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That you make will be a game changer for somebody. you know.. It doesn't need to be the game changer for all of america, or all of the world. it'll be a game changer for somebody.

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There's a lot of times in my career, where I think the work that I do is stupid,.

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Or that I am just making decorative, stupid stuff all the time.

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But then I'll these really impassioned emails from people. That will tell me.

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That like, "oh, my daughter's applying to art, school, and I didn't think art school.

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Was the thing that she should do until suddenly, she showed me her website.

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and,. Now I feel like she could have a career and now she's going to art school., that's a fucking game changer! and I just do pretty making all the time,.

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And you can still change people's live, even if you're just doing pretty making.

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So, the whole batman-bruce wayne thing--you know.

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For one thing you have to do side-projects, even if you're awesome and bruce wayne,.

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And fucking models and being awesome, because it's nearly impossible to get.

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All of your career happiness from client work alone, or from your day, job alone., there's always going to be shit. That is wrong with your client work or your day. Job..

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Someone is always going to a complete weirdo and ruining your life for a week,.

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And you need a way to step away from it. and also,. It's nearly impossible to work.

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For 16 hours on one thing and not lose steam.

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So a big issue that a lot of people have is like, "oh, my god!. How do you.

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Stay motivated to do freelance work at night?. How do you just keep going?".

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And the main thing is actually project diversity.

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So, that's why google has that 20% rule.?

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That's why a lot of people have work at home, wednesdays or let you do these fun things at the office., because if you have diversity in the work that you're doing,, it doesn't feel like.

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You're working one 16 hour day., it feels like you're working three five-hour days.

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Or 5.233, whatever that equates to.

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So for me, the way that my life kind of breaks down is,, I do lettering,.

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Type design, illustration, web design,, writing, and public speaking.

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Not all of this pays the bills.. A lot of it is batman activity,, but it all falls.

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Somewhere on this conceptual thinking to making production scale.

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And for me,, I found that I like to just make a lot more than I like.

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To be in my own head and think all the time.

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So the actual conceptual thinking stuff only takes up, probably a third to a little.

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Over that of my time, and then most of my time is spent making.

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And that's how I like to be,, because I'm in my moment., I'm zenned out.

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If I can just sit there and make, and that's why lettering and type design.

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Is so good for me., but if I only did that,, then I would feel like a hollow shell of a person.

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I would be like bruce wayne,, but only with the prostitutes..

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It would be not good..

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I don't know if any of this makes sense. it's the tea.

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I actually only had like half of a glass of that tea., I'm totally lying.

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stone, sober right, now.

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But, side-projects are great,, and these passion projects are great,.

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Because it's this big cyclical motion., you do the side-projects,, which.

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Get you totally amped about making again, and then, you go into the work.

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That you're getting paid to do with a new sense of purpose,.

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And then you see that, through in a more enthusiastic way than you would have, if you didn't., and then that pays the bills,, which enables.

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You to do the side-projects, and it just goes in circles like that, over and over again.. So that's why I think it's always really good to have a lot of stuff on your plate.

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It's always good to be able to jump between projects, and that's why procrastiworking is awesome., because you get to work all the time, and always.

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Feel like you're being productive. you're, not masturbating when you're taking a break from your project, you're working on other stuff, that's really fun and productive. so,. These are all--all of my side-projects that I've ever done.

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Have been really practical. so daily drop cap, I've made,, because I quit working for.

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Louise and I wanted to be freelance,, but I wasn't sure if I was going to be hired.

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To do lettering all the time,, so I decided to make a project, that I had to do.

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Lettering every single day. and what ended up happening was that,.

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I made the side-project as just an exercise for me to do lettering.

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Everyday, and because of it, all these other projects that were lettering,.

B

Came about from it. so,, I ended up doing this series with penguin this year in which,, I'm doing--.

B

It's called penguin drop caps, and I do a letter for each author through.

B

The whole alphabet., so it's like austen, bronte,, cather, dickens, and goes.

B

All the way, though, to z, based on the author's last name., it's awesome,, a crazy undertaking, and I've read a lot of books. This year.

B

But it all came about because I decided to do an exercise on my own time.

B

For like 30 minutes in the morning. and then,, a lot of my side-projects come about.

B

Because people email me stuff all the time, so, "jessica,. How do you feel about doing.

B

Work on spec?" there was this whole conversation about doing spec work, because google was.

B

Trying to hire an artist to do work for free for their chrome when they.

B

First, launched chrome and it started this whole wildfire.

B

Throughout the illustration, community, and everyone wanted everyone to comment.

B

Everyone needs to comment and write posts and blah, blah, blah.

B

and instead of doing that,, I made a website that was a flowchart that told you whether or not you should work for free.. So I got to do some. Writing.- I got to be kind of irreverent and funny.

B

There's a cursing and a non-cursing version, as you could imagine.

B

It's nothing all that bad.

B

just says, "make it rain bitches a couple places, or something.".

B

Side-Projects come about in this really natural way..

B

I made the flowchart in like an hour and a half, and then just posted it online,.

B

As a .jpeg, and all the nerds were like, "oh, my god!, it takes so long to load!".

B

So then I spent eleven hours handwriting it in css and html,.

B

And that's how it went up. now it looks all fucked up because they updated.

B

The font, and it's a little funky, and I haven't fixed it yet.

B

But, anyway,, it was stupid reason to do this really elaborate. Thing,.

B

But so many people saw this., it's had like a million and a quarter uniques.

B

Since I launched it or something,, which is crazy for a flowchart about working.,.

B

And because of it, I've just gotten endless people asking more advice on this kind.

B

Of stuff., so it sort of spurned [sic]. This whole part of my website, in which.

B

I just write articles about pricing, write articles about freelancing,, write articles.

B

About interning, all that kind of stuff.

B

and,, this stuff is like--they say, "if. You want to be an expert, write, a book,".

B

We don't have to write books any more.. We just write, really elaborate: blog posts.

B

and then, all of a sudden, you're, an expert. so, [laughs] boom! [laughs].

B

So it's helped a great deal because,. I think, in really outing a lot of this.

B

Professional stuff,, this insider info,, the insider info that all the insiders know.

B

But don't share all that much because they're afraid to expose what they.

B

Actually charge for things,, I ended up, having all that transparency, had--.

B

And I ended up having a lot of people trust my opinion. More, want to hire me.

B

Because they knew that I just was very straightforward about the way that I operated. and in the end,. Even though I was more transparent,.

B

And posting prices on here that a lot of people thought were outrageous.

B

That live in wichita, or something,.

B

I was still able to help a lot of people, and educate a lot of people,.

B

And hopefully the raise awareness of what people should charge for all things.

B

"What, do people even use twitter for?, it's like facebook without pictures?". This was an honest question from my family. so, I made "mom. This is how twitter works.".

B

End, I--this has gotten--I've gotten.

B

So much feedback of people that are seriously our age that are like,.

B

"I learned that I was accidentally showing all of my secret conversations to people.

B

On twitter, because I didn't know what an add reply- was.".

B

And,, it's just narrative, and just shows you twitter., it's just a stupid. Thing.

B

I made it in like a day and a half.

B

and,. That's how all my side projects end up. Being.

B

they're, not these commitments for eight months, like,.

B

"Make, this total crazy thing,". If I can't make something in a weekend,, it probably doesn't get made.

B

and that's just how I operate,, because I'm a sprinter,, I'm not a marathon runner.

B

We were talking about that a little earlier.

B

But,, that's unique to me, and that's why I can only do these, sort, of,, one-off websites,, because anything that actually have to maintain,. I just drag my feet: on,.

B

And have to hire my mom to maintain it for me.. Will you send me that template you used for your website?.

B

A constant of any designer., so I made "don't fear the internet,", which is.

B

A series of videos, teaching people basic html and css,, which a professor.

B

At stanford told me he uses in his classes.

B

so, this shit's crazy. you're like, "I'm, going to make that," and you make it, and then people start using it.. It's wild!, you guys know that. github's crazy, like that. everybody's, always making stuff.

B

And another big one, "you, don't know me,, but can you recommend a printer for my job.

B

That you know nothing about?".

B

Everyone assumes that if you're a designer you know all printers in the entire universe., so I'll get emails from people in australia that are like, "I want to make a business card.. Can you recommend a printer?" and I'm like,.

B

"You live in perth, australia., I don't know any printers there.".

B

So I made this website, "inker linker," and just had a form that all printers could sign up and just list.

B

Their services,, and that was it. and it was just a wordpress site., but now there's like 500, or 600 printers on there,.

B

And a lot of people use it as a resource. so,, it's pretty cool.

B

recommend to learn how to be a letter?"]. None of these things will ever make me money.. I pay my mom to maintain this website for me.

B

Because I just have no desire to update people's contact information.

B

On a website, I will never make money. On.

B

see this ad in the corner, there?. That was a link exchange with french paper,.

B

Because they put me in their mailing list, blast once., so they're like,.

B

"We'll put an ad on your site.: let's do an exchange.".

B

So that's how all these ad things work on these sites., it's really fun! or not..

B

Are there any classes or books, you would recommend to learn how to be a letterer?.

B

Just decided to some workshops. made a whole thing about it.

B

And then--so, people come to you and have these problems,.

B

And you can either do nothing about them, and focus on your thing that no one's asking you about, or you can do something with them,.

B

And usually they can be really fast,. These workshops we just--.

B

I started a studio with my friend eric, and we were like,.

B

"You know what would be awesome? if we didn't have to pay as much rent for our studio in san fransisco. so,. Let's have workshops and subsidize our rent.

B

With these workshops., so sometimes there's really practical reasons for doing stuff.

B

My wedding website,, which you can't really see that much on this screen, came about.

B

Because I was getting married., that's a practical reason; to make a wedding website.

B

But it also came about because, as soon as we announced that we were getting engaged,. Every person on the internet was like, "oh, my god! you're going to have the most beautiful wedding website in the universe!", and I was like, "fuck everyone!".

B

Because, I was so freaked out!.

B

I was just like, "let's just elope.. Let's not do a wedding.".

B

And russ is like,. "My mom is from the south.. We can do that.".

B

So, the whole time--my family's totally crazy.

B

I love them, but they're completely insane.

B

they're hyper-divorced.. It's really intense.

B

So I just wanted to run away and get married, and then, as soon as the internet was like, "oh, my god!, I bet your wedding invitation.

B

Is going to be the best in the whole universe, and you'll be able to wear it--.

B

"Let's just do something really small.

B

Let's just get our friends to give us some artwork. it'll be great!" and it ended up being this insanity, parallax website thing.

B

That then gawker shat on like crazy,, which was really fun., and then they had to do.

B

A redaction because they got so many crazy hate mail from the people on the internet.

B

That are like,, "jessica is awesome., shut, up!".

B

Which is really rad., I was in to that. but--[laughs] and all my side projects are so dumb.

B

They're, just these one-off things., I made this website.

B

Because I was tired of clients sending me manuscripts that had the accent typed after the 'e' on café,.

B

Because no one knows how to type accents or no one used. Theproper quotes,.

B

So I made a website, quotesandaccents.com.

B

That teaches you how to type the quotes.

B

And then,, this is the last project that I'll show you just because this was.

B

A total--sometimes I like making just silly, stupid, stuff,.

B

And it's really fun, and it's delightful, and why not?.

B

So I had this idea a while ago, that I wanted to make these certificates of awesomeness, to just give to people that were doing awesome. Stuff.

B

Sometimes people write you really nice things in the mail, or be like,.

B

"Oh my god!- I just totally made this cake for my friend," and I'm like,.

B

"That's great., you deserve a certificate!".

B

But I never made them, because they would cost like $1,000,000,000 because,.

B

Of course,, the only way I could imagine them happening in my mind, was with.

B

20 colors of holographic foil--.

B

So I never made them. and, a few months. Ago,, a few of my friends were bitching.

B

On twitter about how they didn't get into one of those 20 under 30 competitions,.

B

And I was like,: "this is the perfect time!".

B

So I made a website called, "thousands under 90," and then--.

B

So, [suppressed laughter]. If you think that you deserve an award,.

B

You can give yourself an award on thousands under 90.

B

And the whole thing fills in your information and says,.

B

"You're so awesome that they're going to change your profession to githubbery,.

B

Or something like that." and there's no printed version.

B

It just tells you to take a screen grab of your thing., and people are like,. "You should do a thing where it converts it into a .jpeg,.

B

And then I'm like, "no!, it's a fucking, one-off website., just take a screen grab!", but it was so fun and I got so many people posting.

B

These on facebook, that were friends of mine, and then tagging me, and then all their friends didn't get the joke., so they'd be like, "oh. My god! congratulations!".

B

Which turned into like two or three days of just all of us just laughing at.

B

Everyone on the internet., it was really good.

A

But anyway, so there's so many different reasons to procrastiwork, and to do.

B

These passion projects and whatnot but, you have to always be coming up with.

B

Ways to keep learning, to teach other people,, because we forget how much.

B

We actually know., I mean, you guys, probably know how much you know.

B

Because nerds are really good at knowing how much they know.

B

But we forget that not everyone--you can blow people's minds. when we first made.

B

Don't fear the internet, russ, he works at facebook. he's a total web person.

B

He was like talking about, "oh,. We got to teach them how to do floats and responsive stuff.", and I'm like, "we've got to teach them how not to make the links blue.

B

It will blow their minds. believe, me!" and so,. We have this knowledge that really.

B

Does blow a lot of people's minds, and just coming up with ways to teach it.

B

To other people is a great way to start passion, projects.

B

And, of course, to play because sometimes you're stuck in a project at work.

B

Or whatever and,, you don't feel like you're, really experimenting or playing anymore,, just because you're at that point in the project where you just have to see it through.. So you have to come up with new ways to be able to play. so--and, of course, to find your passion,, because a lot of times,.

B

We don't really know exactly what it is that we want yet, and it's only through.

B

Experimenting and trying new things that we actually figure that out.

B

so, yeah. thank you,, guys!.

B

♪ [funky soul] ♪.

A

Projects jessica, hisch].

A

What was your first computer moment?? Do you remember the first time that you laid.

A

Eyes on a computer or fell in love with a computer?, it would be the gateway 2000.

B

That my mom purchased in,, I believe, 1995, or '94, maybe.

B

When she bought it,, it came with an unsolicited note.

B

From whoever had packed that,, that was a mean note about her being a rich bitch,.

B

The computer store was just like,.

B

"Fuck everybody that's buying these computers!".

B

It was like a bad fortune cookie in a cow-covered box.

B

But that was my first,. That was my first computer.

B

I was allowed to use the computer for 15 minutes a day,.

B

Because it was a long distance phone call to use the internet.

B

We had to call--I'm from hazelton, pennsylvania,-- and it had to call wilkes-barre.. That was the only place that the internet happened.

B

So, that was 40 miles, away,, which at the time, there was a thing called,.

B

"Area codes," that people had to deal with.

B

I learned this from ludacris, actually. and so,. It was very--.

B

Yeah,, that's a nice, nice--all, the ho's and whatnot.

B

But I loved it., we had all the aol disks that anyone could ever ask for.

B

I wish I still had my original aol aim name, but I have a new one.

A

Those disks an make jewellery out of them.

B

Curtains and all kinds of stuff out of them.

B

But also, I, my whole hometown used mirc as a chat line, which actually just turned.

B

Into a giant pit of despair in highschool,, because what happens is.

B

When teenagers have the internet, it's terrible.

B

So, we had this chat room on mirc called,, "the dungeon,", which was controlled by.

B

A couple of very intense,, self-centered nerds, and then a bunch of crazy,.

B

High-Drinking football players.

B

and so, they-- to use the internet? use the internet,. They knew how to turn--how to go there.. They knew how to go to there.

B

And they knew how to shit on people,, so it worked out for them in a way.

B

But it was--I went on so much in later high school and just spent.

B

All my time paying attention to what all the people said on the internet.

A

Amazing!, all of the people,, you digested all of it?, just all of it-- great.. Before we move on too far away from dial-up,. Can you do your best impression of a dial-up connection, and what.

A

That sounded like? whoa!.

B

We have some younger people in the audience that maybe have never heard this. they don't even know.. I know, I feel like this,. You know I had a thing.

B

For a while, where I was like, "what?, you never recorded a song onto a cassette tape from the radio?.

B

And that became like, "now. I know how old you are,", you know. [hysterical laughter].

B

But the dial up noise might be the other one, so its like,.

B

I don't know., I don't think I can remember it all. The way.

B

and applauding].

A

On tape, somewhere].

B

Of dial-up modem, sound].

A

Yeah, that's pretty great., I'm sure that'll be the background to some drake song eventually.

B

Oh, yeah kanye, maybe.

B

drake's, pretty young yeah,, so many.

A

Seen a floppy disk.

B

I'm sure he's seen one. we've all seen them. he had to use one on degrassi..

B

It was probably a coaster at some hipster, bar, or something..

A

Free idea., free idea.

B

Free idea., free idea.

A

But in all seriousness. [laughing] okay,, so that was your first computer moment.

A

How did you know--when was moment--maybe in college, when you were studying art,.

A

Fine art--when was the moment that you decided, "I, want to be a letterer," or,.

A

"I want to be a designer., that's something that I want to do.".

B

I feel like I just forgot about another computer moment,, which I have to mention--. Please share it., I was--I sort of--I think, art-wise, was a graphic designer very early on,, but then.

B

Didn't know what being a graphic designer was,, because we all had microsoft, publisher, and microsoft. Publisher was awesome.

B

Yes, but my mom also got these packs of paper from paper direct that had all the crazy certificate borders, and I would make.

B

Certificates for everyone, like, with the soccer border, and we had.

B

This laser printer, where you can actually foil stamp with--through the laser printer.

B

Because,, it was just a normal laser printer, and then would tape a piece of foil to it, and then, run it back through the laser printer,, and it would stick to the laser output.

B

Could have been a fake notary.?

B

Do you guys watch--what's that-- on the league?

B

yeah. -on, the league. totally. a shout out-- god!? We are just synchronized-- on the same page-- --right, now.

B

but,. I think I didn't know. I was going to be a letterer until even after college,.

B

Because when I was in school I still--I thought I was just a graphic designer.

B

That made fonts for my own projects,, but I didn't know that the fonts were made by real people that were still alive.

B

At that point, I think.

A

Still alive,, and also in the popular documentary, helvetica.

B

Which, was not out when I was in college,, so I didn't learn about them until much later.. But I know many of those-- those men, now-- really?, they're, wonderful., matthew carter. Okay., is the most awesome. Badass is the whole entire universe, and erik spiekermann--I was on a panel talking to him, and he interrupted me,.

B

While I was mid-talking, to tell me, I was wrong about something [laughter].

A

Thing a man would do ever!.

A

Ever! oh,, that's a whole other--.

B

It's different.

A

Whole other-- him., it's fine., it's fine,, erik.

A

What's your approach for learning something new?.

B

One is being really excited,: two is hating it.

B

I forget who I was--I was watching someone speak recently and they were saying that,.

B

Anyone that says that they love learning new things is a lying asshole.

A

Loves learning new things.

B

People love being good at new things.", the process of learning sucks sometimes, when you learn new things,.

B

You feel like you're terrible at stuff,, and then you question how bad you are at everything else that you do.

B

Imposter syndrome--, you hate yourself for a little bit-- and then you have that breakthrough. Moment, then you're like, "oh, my god!. Now I love learning! learning's amazing!".

B

And it's so much later than the beginning of learning.. So much later.

B

I deserve to be alive.".

B

A

B

Do you go for daily inspiration?.

B

I go to places that fill my stomach with delicious treats.. Actually, most--I, don't.

B

Go to a lot of inspirationy websites,, because I feel like the internet.

B

Can be a crazy circle-jerk with design stuff.

B

So, I big thing--I mean,.

B

It really just is people re-posting shit over and over again from the same sources over and over again., and then everyone's just like, "oh,, I'm so inspired by this thing I saw last week,, so I'm going to make a new thing, and then someone else is going to be inspired by that," and it's literally,. Things are four weeks old by the time they feel old,.

B

Because people are working from the same sources, because not every thing, on--in.

B

The entire world that has been created, is on google images.

B

So,, I don't know if you guys don't know that. [chuckles].

B

There's lots of stuff on there,, but not everything is on there.

B

And I found that the more that I actually looked at those inspiry sites,.

B

The less I was actually looking to my content for inspiration,.

B

So now now I feel like--I,. I love client work., I'm not one of those people.

B

That's like, "fuck clients!, I hate clients!". I love client work.. I actually find that my best work that I do is for clients.

B

Because I have someone, that I feel like I have to work for, you know,.

B

Instead of me just working for me,, because I can--I want to try all my projects, of course,.

B

But I let myself give up way faster than I do if someone else is being like,.

B

"So that thing that you're doing for us,".

B

So,, the more that I actually work with the content and look to the content.

B

For inspiration, the more inventive I think I end up, being.

B

If something ends up having to be very historically accurate,,.

B

I'll, of course, do tons of research., but a lot of times,, especially with book, covers and stuff like that,.

B

Read the book!: that's your source of inspiration! [laughs].

B

You don't have to go online and be like, "oh.. What did other people that had to do a book cover for this book? Do?.

B

You mean,, you didn't search for a bull for the great gatsby?.

A

Yeah. dribble-- is that something you did?.

B

Dribble is a--I, have a contentious, feeling, feelings about dribble.

B

I love dan cederholme, and he's the most kind and lovely person ever.

B

And,, I am sad for what dribble has become, because it used to be such a lovely thing.

B

For people to post in progress work, and now it's a portfolio website of 300 x, 400, images. but--, that's true.,.

B

Not a lot of people love that opinion..

B

A lot of people are like,. "Dribble is the best place. Ever. you--you're, aweful, jessica.".

A

You use for other people-- yeah!.

B

I think it's [laughter], I feel, like I use--I, feel like I use a much deeper voice for my mom.

B

Which is really funny, because I think I use a deeper voice for "grownups.".

B

Kermit voice., I don't understand it.

A

Amazing., so you study--you started studying fine art,.

A

And you've been really vocal about the difference between fine art.

A

And what web design is and even between,, you know, what lettering.

A

And illustration is,, and what web design is.? Where do you draw those lines?.

A

You know,, I think, there's a lot of people that do a lot of things.

B

But each industry operates completely differently from one another.

B

Lettering and illustration are very similar in terms of how you interact with clients,, how you bill things,, how you handle artwork rights,, you know,.

B

The actual process of working,, which is totally dissimilar from web design,,.

B

You know, web design and graphic design, totally very similar,, except most people forget that you can separate production from design.

B

So, web designers;, it's usually one big package.

B

Client's expect you to package it all together, and present it in this lovely thing, in which the entire price.

B

Is conveyed right, there. and it's everything start to finish.

B

And print designers get to separate it a lot more because, obviously,.

B

Most print designers aren't expected to also have heidelberg, presses, and run.

B

Your magazine for you., but a lot of web designers are sort of expected to sort of do. Everything.

B

and,, good web designers are people that know when to separate things.

B

And when they can take things on themselves, and have people in place to do the things that they're not the best at.

B

Yeah. so,, that's really the differences. web design and graphic design.

B

In general, is very much a teamwork thing,, as is lettering and illustration,, but letterers and illustrators don't have to assemble the team.

B

They become a part of someone else's team versus web design and graphic design.

B

Where you are the "teamifier,", you are the person that puts everyone in place.

B

That does the thing that they do best to actually make the project happen.

A

As a web designer, or someone who's directing a project, when to tap out and say--.

B

There's someone who's better at this than I am,, and so we should-- you need to be able to say, "what you have just asked. For, is beyond the scope of what I am capable of doing,.

B

And now we need to talk to another person that can handle that.

B

Right. and,: that's a major learning curve for all web designers, because a lot of people.

B

Just don't have the balls to tell clients when they're not good at something, because it's seen as a sign of weakness or whatever,.

B

Or they're, not very good, at explaining what it is that they're best at,.

B

And, and giving the confidence to the client and saying,.

B

"I am awesome at the this thing, and you are awesome for hiring me to do. This,.

B

Because I am the best at this thing., what you are asking me to do.

B

Is like swahili compared to what I know to speak,.

B

So we need to ask the swahili speaker to go: do that, and that's going to be an additional fee, and I'll show you three people that speak swahili in different price ranges,, and then they can speak.

B

Swahili for you, and it'll all be great!", but a lot of people don't know how to approach that with clients,.

B

And don't have enough transparency in their process, and that ends up being where web designers end up getting fucked, because they wait too long. And then.

B

Are still quoting, you know, $1000 for web development when suddenly.

B

A project has turned into this crazy e-commerce, monster.

A

Yeah. "can, you do the logo type?. Can you also do the ui work?.

A

Can you also do all the illustrations, because we need people looking happy on our websites?" exactly. "can, you write all the content--" "yeah, just write the content for us., that's fine." becomes a problem,, and a lot of your projects have actually turned into things that are.

A

Aimed at better educating designers and everything., do you think a big part of the problem? There is that,.

A

Businesses or entrepreneurs in general, don't understand design and what aspects,.

A

Make a web designer, and an illustrator an illustrator?--.

B

The biggest problem, and it's because it's annoying to have to educate people every single time--.

B

And that's why I love being a letterer because they don't have to do that-- for the most part.. I do have to come in on that. First phone call.

B

And preemptive strike all their weird shit that they are going to say, because everybody says the same: thing. they're, like, "we just need to make sure you can read it"--.

B

So my first thing that I'll on the phone call with client's is like,.

B

"Legibility is my top priority." "we trust you implicitly.".

B

And you can do that as a web designer too., you know the things that people are going to freak out about, and that people are going to ask for. and if you confidently say that you will.

B

Handle that, and you are awesome at that,, they back off, and they don't bother.

B

You as much about the other stuff,, and they just let you go..

B

I think a lot of people just aren't very confident, and they don't know how to present themselves, and don't know how to talk about their work, and it's so, so important.. So when people have that conversation of like,.

B

"Is it worth it to go to art school?. Is it worth it to do? X?".

B

You don't have to go to art school if you can learn all these skills on you, own,.

B

But I think the most valuable skill that you learn when you're in school is actually just to be able to defend yourself.

B

And communicate. exactly. because you have to be up there with your work on the wall,.

B

And say why you did it., you can just be like, "I, don't know.

A

Helvetica's cool" "it's, my vision!" "it looked good.".

B

Yeah. whatever., no one can do that at critique and not just get lit on fire by their professor.

B

So,, if you can learn that in your own life,, by having your own little professional debate, club, you know, that--you're,.

B

Going to learn 90 percent of what you can learn in art, school.

A

We hoped dribble would be.

A

for people. exactly.. Do you think it has to do with web design as a profession being so new?.

A

Print design has been around long,, and so people know what lettering is,.

A

And they know what the process is--well, you know,, depending on the client you're talking to. Do you think that it'll just get better with time,.

A

That clients will familiarize themselves with what they are asking for? design. Is, clients are not 300 years, old.

B

So, you're dealing with new clients, all the time. so-- yeah.. Most people have no idea what the difference between calligraphy and lettering, is, and people will hire me and say,.

B

"We have a budget of $1500 and we need 40 phrases. Lettered.

B

And I'm like, "that is not possible with a lettering person.

B

Maybe you can typeset it.. I can recommend fonts that you can use, or we can talk.

B

To a calligrapher that is, really, really fast, and see if they can manage it.

B

In their hourly rate., but most people just--they think fonts.

B

I've had a lot of people that look at my work, and they say, "hey. Can I get the 'v' from that alphabet?" and I'm like, "you know that I just wrote that word?, it's just a picture of a word.

B

There's not a whole font behind that. yeah. and it's amazing how much you can blow people's minds. people just forget.

B

That human beings create things sometimes., right. yeah., you mean computers, don't do it. All? no. you'd be surprised..

B

I have to qualify all of my like, "I, make it by hand on the computer. All the time." and people are like,.

B

"I don't understand.

A

What you're talking about." amazing.

B

Like, "wait. so,, you have a pencil and you use a wacom,.

B

And then you"--I'm like, "no,, I don't use a wacom.. I use a mouse." and they're like, "what?. How do you draw with a mouse?? You just move the mouse?".

B

And I'm like, "no., you do a point here, and a point here, and a point. Here,.

A

A point here, and a point: here." a screenshot of the pen tool.

B

In illustrator. yeah, and they're like, "that sucks!" yeah. "I, don't want to do that.", I'm like "that's. Why you pay me to do it., it's great!".

A

Yeah,, it's great--, it's the perfect exchange. yeah. yeah.

A

So,, you have collected a lot of web experience from your side-projects.

A

What do you think is the biggest disconnect between web design or the stuff that you worked on specifically,.

A

And what someone would qualify as web? Development.-.

B

Well,, I'm actually kind of in a weird spot, because I have talked to so many.

B

Web people in the last couple of years, and now I'm like,, I feel like.

B

I'm at more web conferences than normal conferences,, and I am one of those people.

B

That's like, "all web designers should know how to do basic, front-end development,. They should all be writing their own blah, blah, blah.", and I know that the true nerds are like,. "Css is aweful! who writes css?. We use this other language that compiles it.".

B

But, there's so many web designers that are like,.

B

"I still use photoshop., I don't care.. I don't need to do. That.".

B

And because I never did that,, I feel like designing in photoshop.

B

Is the worst ever.? I don't understand people that can design in photoshop.

B

Because it wasn't made to be a page layout, program.--.

B

It was made for pictures. right. like, "photo shop." pictures of websites.

B

yeah. yeah exactly-- in photoshop, well,.

A

I think maybe we should keep you here because I'm pretty sure none of our web designers--I mean, we use--.

A

We do a hybrid of photoshop--some of us use photoshop for certain things,.

A

But we cheat a lot, like take screenshots of the website and add boxes and words,.

A

And stuff., but most of our designers here know how to code and write front-end, html, and css..

A

I only use photoshop to make the photos that I take of my sketches.

B

On my iphone into black and white, high contrast, images., that's the only reason-- which you can do with css,.

A

By the way., maybe we should talk later. yeah.. Let's go hang out.

B

I could do that., but it would probably take longer. just for that-- yeah. specific thing. right., because I was like, "yeah, [makes, a beeping, noise], done." and also,. They don't need to be high-res.. It's not a big deal., awesome. but, I oftentimes. Now, when I get hired to do graphic design work that I know will eventually be on the web,.

B

I make html mockups of the design before I do anything within a new design.

A

Anyone scream after that that?

A

that's a pretty good--no.

A

thank you! jesus., not be. okay. anyways,, moving on.

B

That's right! -it's, it's,. I love html, and css, and php,, even though everyone hates php,.

B

And I never did ruby or anything yet, and I want to, but I can't,.

B

Because it's a thing that I know, just,, I shouldn't do.

B

It's a rabbit hole. I shouldn't fall down.

B

because I have this thing that I do that I'm good at, and that would be a whole.

B

Other zone. yeah.

A

I know who write ruby,, hate, ruby., so--, really?,.

B

You're, probably better off. there we go! yeah., I use kirby for everything now, I like that thing., that's pretty nice. but, yeah.. I love it..

B

It's like a very--everything that I do is so,.

B

You suddenly look up and it's nine hours, later.

B

And that's how I really feel about web design and development, stuff too,.

B

And I love activities that are like that. so, as much as it's really frustrating.

B

When you're spending four hours, trying to figure out how to make.

B

This jquery thing, happen, in-- and those four hours feel like they're worth it. exactly. so,. I think that web design and type design are very similar because.

B

In the end,, the thing that you're making doesn't seem as astounding, as you know,.

B

That it was to create. right. yeah., the inner nerd.

A

B

Is celebrating, doing a little dance, in-- exactly. and you that everyone in the whole world is like, "oh!. That's just like.

B

One of those wordpress templates," right? and, you're, just like, "fuck everything!",.

A

Yeah, "here's this file. pay me.", but you know that it's amazing,.

B

And that's why people share shit on github and stuff like that,, because they're like,.

B

"Check out how smarts [sic] I am!" [chuckles].

B

About?, none of us are over there--, which is the nerdiest conference.

B

In the entire universe., everyone is like 45 or above. and, grey long, hair,.

B

And white reeboks, free t-shirts--, mom jeans.

B

Mom jeans.-- amazing!, it's pretty amazing, actually., that's pretty great!.

A

So,, you have met and gotten to work with so many people that you admire,.

A

Or, you like their work, et cetera.,.

A

What's the best way to meet people that you want to work, with?.

B

Well, you know,, when I was talking earlier about having that thing that you're good at that people know that you're good at?, right, yeah., you guys know,. I mean,. I sure that you have non-web friends.

B

It's hard to imagine in san fransisco.

B

but,. There are people from back home that know you as the web person.

B

Right.-- so,, every time you go, home, you're fixing everyone's computers.. It's a big joke.

B

in everyone's family that you're fixing the printer, or whatever.

B

Did anyone read that mcsweeney's article, recently? it was so funny!.

B

If you haven't read the--someone posted a thing on mcsweeney's., they wrote it like.

B

This epic tale of them going home and fixing their girlfriend's parents' computer.. It's amazing bootstrap fan-fiction,, which exists.

B

Yeah, but it's--[laughs] you guys are such awesome, awesome--but. You become.

B

That person that thing that people don't know about, and that's the best way.

B

To meet people. and, within the web, world, you're, not just a web designer,.

B

You're, a web designer that specializes in x, part and,, has done x, thing,.

B

And if people know you as that thing,, they recommend you for that. Thing.

B

So,, the more specific the thing is.

B

That you put yourself out there as being awesome, at,, the more likely it is that.

B

Someone's going to look at you and say, "this person is great!" or,. You can just.

B

-Be, a really cool, fun to talk to person--. You can wear cool dresses.

B

You can steal people's dresses from the bathroom, and all of a sudden everyone's.

B

Like, "oh jessica,, she steals stuff from our bathroom,. We should go hire her.

B

To draw our logo,", you know? [laughs] that exactly how that works.

B

But,, if you think about it. when it comes to full-time jobs, it's really different.

B

Than freelance,, though, it's actually not all that different. I've never had.

B

An intern that I looked at their work before I hired them as an intern.

B

So,, I've always just hired people to be my interns., just based on me hanging out with them.. I would go out to breakfast with someone, because they just wanted to like,.

B

"Oh I'm in new york and I want to meet someone." and I would have breakfast.

B

With them, and they'd ask if anyone was looking for interns and I'm like, "me! right, now. you're, my intern." and they're like, "but, I haven't shown you my portfolio." and I'm like, "I, don't care. you're, nice., you're, teachable, probably.!

B

That's all that matters." and I think that's the biggest thing. either you have this really specific thing that you're good at and people just point.

B

To you and say, "that person draws bunnies, really well." or,. You have.

B

This personality that makes people want to keep coming back because they know that you're respectful,. They know that you're on time,. They know that you get shit done,. They know that you're a perfectionist,, and they know that if you can't do it, that you'll be able to figure out how to do it. Another way,.

B

Whether you're recommending someone else, or whether you're bringing on someone else., you know,, so it's just like--. You look for people.

A

Who can learn things,? Who are good at learning, good at teaching themselves.

A

yeah, people that have the right attitude, people that, have a really, really.

B

Good work, ethic, and people that are self-aware.

B

Self-Awareness is the biggest strength. Anyone can have.

B

know what you're good at, know what you're not good at,, because even if you have to.

B

Turn away a lot of work, if you're the person that some magazine art director comes to you and says, "oh, my god!. We have.

B

This amazing thing that we want you to do," and you say, "actually,, my friend, that does this style of lettering. All the time would do this.

B

Way better and way: faster, and there'd be no heartache with it.

B

Why don't you hire them to do it?" next time? They have a thing that is right up your alley, they're going to come to you without any question,, because they know that you're not just taking on all the work and just, being greedy, but not necessarily taking on work that you're.

B

Actually, good at., right, yeah.

A

That's excellent, advice, actually., that's really great. so,! You have--. I don't know.

A

If you refer to him as your partner,, but your studio, mate at title, case;.

A

How did you meet him?? I met erik through friends.

B

My friend aaron carambula,, who now works at facebook,, he and I took this type design.

B

Continuing ed program in new york, and their website, friends of type, launched.

B

Five days after--or before my daily drop cap, site.

B

So we didn't know about each,, but we launched these daily sites.

B

At the same. it was five--four dudes that posted to friends of type, they're still.

B

Actively doing it, and we become sort of like sister site friends and I ended up.

B

Doing some collaborative work with them on friends of type., so then,.

B

A couple years ago, we found out, we were moving to san fransisco,, but we're still.

B

In new york for the summer., typecon happened in new orleans,, which was.

B

The biggest drunken fiasco in the history of the universe. there.

B

Was a shooting blocks from the apartment because it's new orleans. but,? I.

B

Was hanging out with eric there, and I was like, "eric,. You live in san fransisco.

B

Do you have a studio, mate?" and he's like, "no.? I just work from home, and I'm like, "you're going to get a studio with me. so,. I just--we hung out,, we totally jived.. He does the same thing.

B

As me, and I never had a studio that does such like, in the same zone of work.

B

And it's so awesome to be able to have these really in depth. Critiques with.

B

Someone versus--I've always shared with other illustrators or designers,.

B

And you can ask them advice,, but they can't give you super pin-pointy,.

B

Hyper nerdy advice that someone that does exactly what you do: can.

B

It would be like if you were, a javascript person in a room.

B

With a php person,, but you guys didn't totally overlap.

B

Because, even if you could-- there's no overlap, actually., there's no overlap., so you could be like,. You could ask that person. The question and they'd be like,. "I know how to google that sort of,, but that's it.,.

B

So, being able to share a space is really great,, because we get to actually give.

B

Each other shit--, that's awesome., like real.

A

To our next question--any,, any cards.

A

From the the audience yet? any questions?, no? cool. I'll, be selfish. Then.

A

I'll just read all of mine.: that's fine.

A

touched your whiskey., I haven't touched my--okay,, I'm being shamed, now.

A

Drinking mine really fast.

B

I'm also getting really nasally. just hold your nose.

A

The whole time, actually. the whole time? just do that the whole time, yeah. so, you.

A

Mentioned that your former boss--first boss or former boss? louise.

A

Former boss. was my first boss.--. Am I saying her name: right?

A

yeah, louise., louise phil?

A

fili. -fili. okay. has been-- the italian way., the italian way.. You said that she has been a really great mentor for you,.

A

Over the years., what do look for in someone to be a mentor to you?.

A

Does it happen accidentally?? Are they just friends? or,? How does that work?.

B

I think it's--mentor relationships are always something that you have to.

B

Really nurture because everyone's different and needs different--you.

B

Need to be giving back to your mentor as much as they are giving to you, because.

B

I think a lot of people end up having weird relationships with their superiors.

B

Because they forget how much that superior is teaching them, and taking.

B

Time out of their day, and that they're extremely slow,, and not as good as.

B

They think they are because they're 23 and really not good at what they're doing yet,.

B

And I think the more you have respect for people that are above you, and that are.

B

Trying to really teach you, the better it is.

B

so, in that case, as much as I was not making a shit ton of money or anything.

B

Like that,, I was still 100% and my all, because I knew that the more.

B

I respected her and the more I gave to the projects,, the more I got. Back,.

B

And because I was so respectful, and because I was always hyper clear about.

B

My intentions, there, and always tried to credit everything like crazy,, always asked.

B

Permission before I posted anything to my website--she had.

B

A non-compete with all of her employees--. She only has like two employees at a time,.

B

So all of her employees, me and the other dude that was there--but, the non-compete.

B

Said that you couldn't work for anyone that she's worked for while you work for her or for a year, after, which,, when you're dealing with someone that's run a studio for 20 years in new york, is every publisher, every ad agency, every.

B

Person that could possibly hire you,, so I was getting asked to do book- covers.

B

From publishers that I know, she's worked for, and I just tried to be hyper, hyper respectful, and I would go to louise and say,. "This publisher is trying.

B

To do this thing,, but I know that we have this situation.. What do you think?" and,.

B

If she thought she was hiring me for me, and not me as cheap her,, she always.

B

Let me do it, so--and. I think, because I was so respectful of that relationship,.

B

And of the agreement between us,, we ended up having this really good, mentor-mentoree situation.

B

It's only when people start being a little secretive or thinking that they deserve.

B

More that it starts to get a little toxic. so,. I think you just.

B

Have to be just really, really aware of your--how much that person is playing.

B

A role in your life. yeah. and it's not like a grab and go situation where you're just going to take from them. What you need.

A

And not also nurture that relationship, or give back to their studio, or respect them, so.--.

B

Yeah, exactly., I mean everybody--I'm just super empathetic,. I think, too. so,.

B

I'm always super aware that even people are being just bat, shit, crazy,, they're.

B

Being bat shit crazy for a reason. right., so I always try to think of that reason. Before I react. I don't want to just have.

B

A crazy gut reaction and be like, "you're being a dick!".

B

I think this person must have had a crazy day, let's blah, blah,.

A

Blah.-- right. there is some situation, that's informing their-- yeah.. You don't need to.

B

Throw gas on the fire every single time. right.? Sometimes it's okay to just look at the fire and let the fire do its thing.

B

And be like, "why. Is this fire burning??

B

Let me approach the fire when it's a little less calm." you know? right.

A

That's amazing.: are you mentoring, anyone?,.

A

Not--Well sort of a little bit, right, now.

B

Erik has had this on-and-off intern for like two years, he's croatian, and.

B

There's some sort of croatian men's network in the area.

B

It's really funny.. They all have these weird men-only barbecues.

B

And his dad that owns some sort of wine land, he's not like a wine person.

B

It's more like, "we have grapes., we sell grapes to people,".

A

You know? [laughs hysterically], so they make all men go and pick grapes. Together,.

B

And stuff, like that., I think we.

A

Might make a sound board after this. for all of your different accents.? It's going to be amazing-- for all my accents?.

B

Yeah. nice., it's going to be great., dominic's accent,, it's more just from erik faking it. so,. This guy, stepan,, who was one of.

B

The family friends of erik's family,, they were like, "stepan's in art, school.

B

He should come, be your intern," to erik. so,. We got an intern! [laughs].

B

So, stepan's really awesome: though. he's, he's like a growing designer,. He just.

B

Graduated from college and while he's done hardly any actual work under my tutelage,.

B

Because it's really hard for me to actually delegate work,, because when you do lettering, the deadlines and really tight.

B

And the learning curve is so crazy. so,. If I actually have an intern come in and try and do stuff for me--I had one time where.

B

I was like, "you're just going to do the work that I'm doing, and with the same deadline that I'm doing, and that's going to be what we do. and,. I had like ten headlines for a magazine due.

B

The following tuesday,, and by the time the deadline came around,. They were done.

B

With like 75 percent of one headline., and I was like, "okay., this is why interns.

B

Aren't really useful all the time.? Well, it's hard also--I read your.

A

Most recent blog post about leveling up in type design, and they're having to.

A

Mimic your style, also. and that's something that you've built.

A

Over time, and then you've kind of ingrained into yourself,. But it's.

B

Really hard to translate to them-- and it's also--even. If you have someone literally try to copy you, there's going to be things that they do.

B

That's different, and there's an essence, sometimes that they can't get.

B

Because it's like, they're going to do something their way, and you're going to do something your way. but,. He has done a shit ton of data entry for me--.

B

On the type directors club website,, which I've been redesigning for free.,.

B

And then--so, in sort of return for that,, I have been giving him hours and hours.

B

Of lessons on how to actually deal with html, and css, and php. so,--, that's awesome. as much as it's, not my specialty., it's a thing that is much easier to teach.

B

In a short term way than lettering. yeah,- and I think this has come up.

A

In a couple other talks that we posted here., when do you know that you're.

A

Able to teach those things? there's this point where you're like,.

A

"Oh., I know these things well,. I can probably communicate,.

A

How to program php, or how to write html, and css,", and it's often that women tend.

A

To short themselves, and be like, "oh,, I only did this on my side-projects.

A

So,, obviously, I'm not very good at it., whereas men in some examples.

A

Will actually be like, "I'm, a professional, because I've done this, like two times.

B

Well, I think that's always been a thing, though. and I think that's been one of my strengths. With my articles.

B

and with everything, I never tried to say,. "I am the best.

B

At this." yeah., I always just say, "this- is my experience.. Let me teach you.

B

My experience. right. and I think that, as long as you can approach everything you do that way,.

B

You're always going to be an expert on what your experience is. absolutely.. You know how you learned, and it might not be what absolutely the experts do. Learn.

B

Or whatever. right., but you can teach the way that you learned and they can learn it later.

B

In a better,, more streamlined, way, or whatever. but,, I also think that.

B

Some people just love to teach.

B

I am one of those people that I'm just like, "I love explaining stuff to people.". I could sit there and talk about stuff forever..

B

I could teach you all sorts of stuff.. I love public speaking.. I feel super energized, after.

B

I'll go home tonight and be like, and russ will be asleep on the sofa.

B

but it's, it's like,. Some people, are really experts at what.

B

They do, and are so good at what they do,, but they just don't love teaching.

B

They just don't love it., and I think you have to love teaching, and that's more important than.

B

Being an expert. right.

A

If you don't love, something,, don't do it.

A

or it's even that--teaching is a really specific skill that requires.

B

Such weird energies. [julie laughs], to be able to do.. I admire people that do it all day.

B

I don't-- right.. When I do workshops I am like-- I feel like. I could have mono.

B

[Interviewer laughs] at the end of a workshop., it's crazy.. It's so exhausting. it is., but to think that people do that, for, like nine months of the year,.

B

For like eight hours, a day, is crazy.

B

much nothing for it. yeah.

B

for it, yeah. and it's so exhausting, and it's such a skill,. But it's a skill that most people.

B

Don't understand or appreciate, because they think, "well.. Oh my god! well,. I know.

B

A thing, I can teach a thing.", but not everyone can teach a thing.

A

Not everyone can teach a thing, awesome.. That's what I'll title the talk when we post it on youtube.

A

[Jessica laughs] nice! "not, everyone can teach a thing..

A

My last question for you--and this subject: header was, "what's next for jessica?".

A

What's one design, skill or dev skill that you wish you had, that you don't have.

A

Right, now?, part--a, big skill,.

B

That I wish that I had, but I don't have,, but I also sort of don't want to learn,.

B

Which is tough, [julie laughs]? That's a tough zone., there's a lot of technical stuff with type design that.

B

I know that I should learn, and that I want to learn,, but I wish that I could.

B

Just inject it into my brain matrix-style.

B

Because, type design is such a tiny, tiny,, tiny community.

B

Of people-- right. that the people that are making the tools for type designers are other type.

B

Designers. yeah. so, in order be able to take advantage of all the technical tools for type design.

B

You sort of have to be a maker of the technical tools for type design., and,.

B

I love html and css,. I love a little bit of php,. I love learning a bit of jquery,.

B

And--But,, the actual diving in and making python plugins, and learning how to.

B

Operate all these other weird--, like ten plugins at once,,.

B

That other type designers have made to streamline stuff, and to do really.

B

Complex opentype programming is something that I really want to know how to do,.

B

But it's that totally like, "learning sucks and knowing is great,".

B

It's that whole process, where it just feels--even, if I'm knee-deep.

B

In that industry, it feels really daunting to me,, and I know that it would help.

B

Me so much to learn it,, but it is something that I want to learn,.

B

But haven't learned yet., I'm sure there are maybe,.

A

I can think of two--specifically-- people who are in this crowd.

A

That can maybe help you with that. I--yeah., while everything is--.

B

So I was thinking about--yeah.-- well,. The thing is that,. I don't need people to help me with it.. I need no one to help me with it.

B

because,, my issue is,, I'm such a delegator-- [interviewer laughs], I'm so good at delegating--, [interviewer laughs]. As soon as I find people that know how to do stuff,, I'm like, "oh,. You know how to do this? just do it for me., that's great., [julie laughs], you know,, because you're good at that. I'll pay, you,. It's no big deal.

A

Were,, don't talk to jessica.

B

Don't talk to me. [audience laughing], don't tell me about your skills,. Only tell me once we're already dating.

B

For like a year, and then you're sitting next to me on the sofa, and then I'm just like, "oh,, how do you do that thing?" [julie laughs] and then you can tell me. but, not until then. amazing.

A

[Jessica laughing], how would--? How does russ feel about that? russ, makes me schedule times.

B

With him, to ask him questions., that's amazing, [everyone laughing].

B

He makes the most horrible faces. When I ask him questions in the middle of working.

B

On a project, because I'll be like, "oh,, I'm trying to make this thing move.

B

Over here,, when you touch it, and he just he grabs my computer.

B

From me, puts it on his lap, and goes like this, [taking, a deep breath].

B

[Julie and audience laughing] and,, nothing makes me want to.

B

Take that computer from him more than that face, and it's just him--it's, not him being.

B

Frustrated., it's him like, "I'm getting in the zone.", but it is.

B

The most-- yeah. like, "hate that you're making me do this face." amazing.. So now we have like,-- [julie laughing] "russ,. I need to schedule two hours of jquery time this afternoon,-- [julie and audience laughing].

B

Will you help me?" he's like, "okay.

A

[Laughs], that's amazing., so we'll send russ a bottle of whiskey, also. yeah.

B

I think he deserves it-- for the two hours. way more than I do, exactly. for sure. for being here,. Thank you to everyone.

A

Who showed up, and stuck around.? We are hosting a drink-up at a nearby bar tonight.

A

From now until 11:30, so drinks are on us.

A

It's at novella,, which is at 3rd and mission..

A

Whoever wants to join us. There is more than welcome to.

A

and,. Can we just give jessica an outstanding round.

A

Of applause for--, thank you guys.

A

Don't give her your business card.

A

only one. only one., just not five--,.

B

Well,, you can -give her one business card., just not five., that's the-- and I'm sorry, and you're. Welcome for all the cursing. [laughs] thank you!.

A

♪ [funky soul] ♪ thank you. thank you, guys!.