►
From YouTube: OCTO Speaker Series #8 swyx
Description
Why Invest in Developer Community?
Who builds developer communities, why are companies investing in them, and why now?
swyx is passionate about Developer Tooling and Developer Communities. He is currently the head of developer experience at temporal.io, and recently published the Coding Career Handbook for Junior to Senior developer careers. In his free time he teaches React, TypeScript, Storybook and Node.js CLI's at Egghead.io, and helps run the Svelte Society community of meetups.
twitter: @swyx
GitHub: @sw-yx
YouTube: @swyxTV
web: https://temporal.io
A
Hello,
welcome
to
the
octo
speaker
series.
My
name
is
edan
and
I'm
with
github's
office
of
the
cto.
We
look
at
the
future
of
development
developer
experiences
and
try
to
figure
out
how
to
make
development
faster,
safer,
easier,
more
accessible
to
more
people
in
more
situations.
A
I'll,
add
fine
jazz
today
we're
trying
something
a
little
different.
Our
guest
is
github
star
sean
wang,
better
known
by
his
internet,
handle
swix
and
we'll
also
be
joined
by
brian
douglas
aka
b
dougie,
who
is
a
developer,
advocate
and
educator?
My
colleague
here
at
github,
so
excited
for
that
discussion.
A
A
I
knew
of
him
in
the
context
of
his
famous
learning
in
public
essay
and
the
talk
that
he
gave
was
a
fantastic
demonstration
of
that
diving
into
an
area
where
he
had
relatively
little
expertise
and
making
sense
of
that
territory
and
jumping
back
out
to
explain
it
to
the
rest
of
us.
A
After
his
talk,
he
confessed
to
me
that
he
he's
actually
a
refugee
from
programming
excel
for
finance
and
I
think,
coming
out
of
that
background.
Swix
excels
at
finding
that
place
of
empathy
for
developers
in
the
middle
of
the
unglamorous,
the
the
hard
parts
of
development,
the
parts
that
we
don't
like
to
show
off
to
one
another,
because
they
don't
make
us
look
smart.
A
They
don't
make
us
look,
look
cool
his
work,
normalizes,
the
feeling
of
I'm
stupid
right
now,
which
is
very
much
a
part
of
every
developer
journey
and
with
which
I
identify
very
very
much.
I
think
that's
what
makes
his
thoughts
on
community
building
so
relatable
and
so
topical.
A
Developer
facing
businesses
have
to
find
a
way
to
channel
empathy
into
action,
and
swix
is
figuring
that
out
in
all
of
its
messiness
in
public,
for
us
to
see
and
learn
from.
In
fact,
the
reason
I
reached
out
to
invite
him
onto
the
show
is
this
recent
post
that
he,
he
wrote
called
technical
community
builders
and
looking
critically
at
at
how
that's
different
from
the
way
devrel
has
done
today,
and
I
think
this
is
a
very
interesting
take
on
the
future
of
of
of
this
business
function
for
developer,
facing
businesses.
A
Okay,
so
before
I
bring
him
on
I'll
remind
everybody
that
we
have
a
code
of
conduct,
it's
really
important
to
me
that
chat
is
a
place
where
everyone
feels
welcome.
So
please
make
sure
to
make
that
possible
and
without
further
ado,
I
would
like
to
welcome
swix
and
b
dougie
hello.
A
Swix
you're
you're
out
in
singapore,
and
it's
like
the
middle
of
your
night.
Thank
you
so
much
for
for
for
coming
in
and
and
joining
us
for.
For
for
this
talk.
B
Oh,
it's
my
pleasure
yeah.
I
mean
I
work
specific
hours
specific
time
anyway,
so
this
is,
I
guess,
the
start
of
my
day.
A
Okay
well,
good
morning
to
you
then
bw,
how
you
doing.
A
The
nor
the
the
morning
that
includes
the
daystar,
fantastic
swix,
you
said
that
you
wanted
to
give
sort
of
a
little
bit
of
an
upfront
sort
of
mini
talk
about
this
before
we
dive
into
this
discussion.
Why
don't
I
bring
you
on
there?
We
go
okay,
so
yeah.
B
B
B
You
know,
I
think
you
and
I
and
and
dougie
like
we
we've
all
sort
of
talked
about
community
for
a
bit,
so
we
may
have
more
context
than
others,
and
so
I
just
wanted
to
you
know:
whip
up
a
few
slides
just
to
set
some
context
and
then
we
can
actually
talk
because
I'm
very
inspired
by
what
github
does
and-
and
I'm
definitely
learning
a
lot
from
what
you
know
you
guys
do
for
for
community
okay.
B
So
why
invest
in
developer
community
a
little
bit
I
feel
like
this
is
a
bit
obvious,
but
but
the
reason
I
write
like
I
would
normally
never
write
something
like
this,
because
it
just
seems
obvious,
but
the
reason
I
write
about
it
is:
I
do
a
lot
of
conversations
with
startups
and
sometimes
for
investing,
sometimes
just
to
give
deveral
advice.
Sometimes
you
know
marketing
or
whatever
other
network
I
can
offer
to
startups.
B
I
I
often
do
that,
but
in
in
the
past
week,
or
so
like
at
least
when
I
wrote
that
blog
post
in
one
week,
I
had
three
conversations
that
all
ended
in.
Can
you
help
us
find
somebody
to
build
developer
community
and
I
was
like
okay?
This
is.
This
is
not
just
like
one-off
thing.
This
is
a
trend
that
a
lot
of
startup
founders
are
feeling
and
there's
no
one
really
kind
of
dedicated
to
it.
There
are
people,
of
course,
but
it's
not
like
a
an
industry
trend.
B
Yet
so
I
decided
to
write
a
blog
post
about
that,
and
that's
that's
why
I
guess
we're
here
today
to
talk
about.
What's
going
on,
why
community
is
becoming
more
of
a
thing.
It
always
has
been
a
thing,
but
it's
becoming
more
of
a
thing
and
maybe
professionalizing
as
well.
So
a
bit
of
context
about
me,
I
think
iran
already
introduced
me
quite
a
bit.
I
did
change
careers
at
age
30,
but
I
definitely
owe
a
lot
of
my
career
change
and
learning
to
code
and
all
that
to
community
right.
B
I
joined
the
free
code
cam
community,
the
coding
blocks,
slack
group
and
podcast
was
also
a
very
big
part
of
companionship
through
the
journey
of
learning
to
code,
which
is
a
very
rough
one.
Even
for
me
and
and
then
of
course,
I
also
did
a
boot
camp,
which
is
a
paid
community,
but
some
one
that's
very,
very
focused
on
getting
you
hired
and
that
got
me
into
two
sigma
nullify
aws
and
I
work
at
temporal.
B
I
think
what
I'm
better
known
for
maybe
in
the
community
space
is,
is
my
volunteer
work
in
this
react
subreddit,
where
I
helped
to
grow
the
subreddit
from
40
000
developers
to
over
220
000
before
I
stepped
down.
I
stepped
down
to
basically
because
I
started
moving
my
interest
to
another
front-end
framework,
as
felt,
and
I
started
that
from
zero
to
now.
It's
like
eight
to
nine
thousand
people
and
I
also
run
a
paid
community
for
learning
in
public.
B
So
I
wrote
a
book
people
like
the
book
and
then
we
ch
chat
about
career
related
stuff
in
in
our
discord
and
in
our
circle
community.
So
that's
my
community
credentials.
I
guess
I
should
preface
that
I
guess
I'm
also.
I
had
to
put
this
here
because
github
at
github
universe
did
this
really
cool
octocat
thing
here.
B
So
I
just
redid
my
profile
as
a
github
octocat,
which
is
really
fun,
and
I
did
I
am-
was
pretty
honored
to
be
invited
as
a
github
star,
which
I
think
is
a
way
that
github
recognizes
community
members
as
well,
which
we
can
also
talk
about
like
how
do
you
recognize
and
promote?
And
you
know
I
guess
you're
you're
super
fans,
and
and
what
does
that
really
do
for
you?
B
B
So
to
me,
I
I
think
the
the
main
articulation
that
I
want
to
have
is
that
community
is
increasingly
the
moat
of
a
lot
of
developer
companies,
so
developers
have
always
self-organized
communities
like
irc
and
bbs's,
but
now
companies
entire
companies
have
communities
where
that's
their
entire
mode,
like
github
is
essentially
git,
plus
a
social
network,
and
it's
real
like
anyone
can
all
forget.
B
Anyone
can
build
that,
but
you
cannot
build
the
community
and
say
for
hacker
news,
so
it
seems
like
it's
very
you
know
a
very
key
mode,
and
you
would
think
that
a
lot
more
companies
should
be
focused
on
that,
but
it
doesn't
seem
so
at
least
in
in
terms
of
hiring
when
you
look
at
job
titles
and
stuff,
like
that,
they're
more
focused
on
like
content
creation
and
marketing,
not
so
much
community,
and
I
think
that's
changing
right
now
and
that's
why
I
write
about
it.
B
So
that's
the
real
question
like
whose
job
is
it
anyway?
There
are
community
managers,
but
typically
we
had
one
in
lfi.
They
are
typically
focused
on
grooming,
the
forums
and
social
media
like
maybe
making
inoffensive
posts
or
whatever
they
they
can
do
it
they're
capable
of
a
lot
more.
These.
These
are
just
sort
of
stereotypical
tasks
that
are
assigned
to
community
managers
and
then
developer
advocates
have
a
bit
of
community
as
well.
They
do
a
lot
of
content
and
outreach
to
other
communities.
B
So
it's
not
so
much
forming
your
own
community
rather
than
that's.
How
do
we
reach
out
and
and
present
and
be
a
part
and
meet
developers
where
they
are
rather
than
draw
people
to
us
which
there
is
a
lot
of
as
well,
but
they
they
maybe
don't
have
a
as
much
of
a
focus
on
sticking
around
and
making
interrelationships
customer
success
is
support,
documentation,
solutions,
engineering.
All
these
are
you
know,
community
of
people
who
pay
you
and
marketing
mailing
lists,
webinars
conferences.
B
These
are
all
you
know,
isolated
communities
of
people
who
don't
yet
pay
you,
but
could
pay
you
and
then
I
think,
there's
also
you
know,
apart
from
function,
functional
split,
there's,
also
sort
of
org
chart
split,
and
I
do
find
that
a
lot
of
people
who
are
sort
of
directly
responsible
for
community
are
at
the
lower
rungs
of
the
of
the
org
chart,
rather
than
at
the
at
the
upper
rung.
So
it's
pretty
weird
that
it's
just
splintered
all
over
the
place.
It's
not
really
organized.
B
No,
it
doesn't
seem
like
sort
of
an
organizational
priority
in
a
lot
of
the
companies
that
I've
seen.
So
the
the
main
realization
for
me
is
that
community
is
basically
part
of
the
product
and
in
fact,
in
a
lot
of
companies,
it
is
the
main
part
of
the
products,
but
it's
under
resource
comparative
products
or
engineering,
and
I
think
something
that
is
key
is
like.
Maybe
we
should
not
call
it
just
community
management,
even
though
that's
a
default
title.
So
I
I
offered
a
few
suggestions
like
community
developer
or
community
tumblr.
B
Tumblr
is
a
word
from,
I
guess
the
circus.
I
I
took
it
from
an
alex
hillman
post
blog
post,
but
essentially
a
tumblr
is
someone
who
gets
conversations
going
in
and
pieces
out
so
a
lot
of
times.
Community
manager
does
a
lot
of
the
the
heavy
lifting,
but
you
need
to
in
order
for
a
functional
community
to
to
form
into
something
that
has
many-to-many
interactions
instead
of
one-to-many
you
you
need
to
get.
B
You
need
to
have
someone
to
create
events
where
people
feel
safe
and
and
inspired
and
motivated
to
share
and
to
help
each
other
out.
My
preferred
term
right
now
is
technical
community
builder,
because
it's
very
similar
to
technical
product
manager,
which
is
an
actual
job
title
at
microsoft,
in
amazon
and
a
bunch
of
other
places,
and
it
has
an
emphasis
on
technical
and
the
and
there's
a
question
of
like.
Must
they
be
technical,
of
course
not?
B
B
B
I
posit
that
it's
very
similar
to
to
the
once
in
a
lifetime
upgrade
in
status,
impact
authority
and
career
prospects
for
ops
professional
when
the
devops
movement
got
started
like
devops
used
to
not
be
a
thing
now,
it's
a
very
highly
in
demand
thing,
and
that's
because
it
was
a
rebrand
of
existing
skills
that
were
that
that
were
around,
but
you
know
repackaged
with
with
new
technology
and
a
new
focus
in
in
a
lot
of
organizations
that
they
that
they
realize
that
they
need
to
invest
in
it.
B
So
I
think
a
similar
movement
needs
to
happen
and
you
you
can't
really
rebrand
something
by
calling
it
the
same
exact
name.
So
so
that's
why
that's?
Why
there's
an
opportunity
to
rebrand
this
discipline
here?
B
Okay,
I'm
very
influenced
by
this
model
from
comsort,
which
is
which
is
essentially
the
opposite
of
what
I
showed
you
earlier,
where
community
used
to
be
at
the
fringe,
and
you
used
to
have
all
these
other
other
things
sort
of
in
control
of
community
and
here
and
and
the
community-led
model
kind
of
inverts.
B
That,
where
community
is
at
the
core
of
everything
and
from
your
insights
from
community
and
building
relationships,
you
you
spin
out
marketing
you
spin
out
products,
you
spin
on
sales
and
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
and
I
think
it's
very
interesting
migration
from
periphery
to
core
which
I've
been
told
actually
is
the
same
thing.
That's
happening
to
data
science,
data
science,
at
least
in
income
in
the
companies
that
I've
worked
with
used
to
be
sort
of
a
fringe
thing.
B
Where,
like
it's
a
bunch
of
geeks,
you
know
messing
around
with
their
with
their
analytics
to
like
now.
It
actually
is
part
of
the
the
reporting
process
that
generates
a
lot
of
product
and
sales
and
marketing
insights,
and
I
think
I
think
community
can
can
do
that
with
humans,
not
not
less
less
less
data,
but
you
can.
You
can
have
a
lot
of
data
with
it
as
well.
B
So
the
question
is:
why
invest
in
it
and
really,
I
think
my
my
fundamental
assertion
is
that
traditional
marketing
support
isn't
cutting
it.
This
is
the
traditional
idea
of
a
marketing
in
sales.
Funnel
you
have
awareness,
evaluation
and
conversion
and
we
as
developer
relations,
people
definitely
advise
towards
awareness
for
better
or
worse,
but
I
think
it
is
only
one
part
of
the
picture
and
it's
very
transactional
right.
B
You
start
at
the
top
and
then
you
you
come
out
at
the
bottom
as
a
as
a
salesperson
and
then
and
then
you're
they're
done
with
you,
you,
I
kind
of
wash
my
hands
off
you
and
I
and
and
you're
handed
out
to
someone
else.
The
problems
here
are
a
few
few
fold
right
like
marketing,
especially
in
developer
marketing,
has
extremely
long
cycles
in
traditional
digital
marketing.
You
need
to
touch.
You
know.
B
The
the
traditional
advice
is
that
someone
needs
to
hear
about
you
six
to
seven
times
before
they
even
check
you
out.
For
me,
I
know
a
lot
of
technologies.
I
ignore
them
for
a
year
just
to
see
if
they
stick
around
and
if
they're
still
relevant
after
you,
then
I
check
them
out
so
try
to
do
marketing
attribution
on
that
impossible,
so
very,
very
difficult
and
and
not
within
any
performance
evaluation
time
frame
and
then
also
what
happens
after
I
convert
right.
B
What
happens
after
I
come
out
the
funnel
do
I
feel
supported
there.
Do
I
do
I
grow
and
succeed,
and
all
that,
so
the
solution
is
to
change
from
mostly
transactional
finite
games
to
relationship
based
infinite
games,
and
this
is
the
bigger
picture
that
I
see
kind
of
there's,
marketing
and
sales
going
on
here.
But
then
you,
it
exists
within
a
broader
scope
of
community
that
kind
of
catches,
all
the
other
stuff
that
isn't
really
handled
by
marketing
sales.
B
We
idan
actually
has
loaded
up
the
orbit
model,
which
we
can
I'm
sure
we're
going
to
talk
about.
So
instead
of
the
funnel,
which
is
a
very
linear
approach.
The
orbit
model,
like
kind
of,
is,
isn't
or
so
it
characterizes
the
people
around
your
company,
as
people
orbiting
your
company
and
they
may
be
in
wider
orbits
or
they
may
be
in
closer
orbits.
B
Sometimes
they
may
drop
out.
Sometimes
they
may
come
back
in
it's
a
very
infinite
relationship
model
where
they're
just
constantly
orbiting
and
you're
just
trying
to
draw
them
closer
with
more
and
more
gravity
towards
your
your
software
or
your
community.
B
The
reason
I
think
it's
important
for
startups
in
particular,
is
that
it's
a
very
big
part
of
crossing
the
chasm,
because
there's
a
small
set
of
people
who
actually
pick
technologies
based
on
pure
technical
merit
and
there's
a
large
set
of
people
who
pick
technologies
partially
on
merit
partially
because
there's
a
strong
ecosystem
and
there's
a
very,
very
big,
steep
gap
in
between
that
and
people
who
can
help
companies
cross.
This
gap
can
deliver
a
lot
of
value
for
for
the
companies
involved
and-
and
that's
a
that's,
a
really
core
insight.
B
I
think
okay,
there's
even
more
reasons
in
my
blog
post.
I
don't
have
time
to
go
into
all
of
these,
but
we
can
talk
about
them
in
a
discussion.
I
don't
want
this
to
be
a
lecture
and
I
will
refer-
and
I
have
the
last
part
on
why
now
and
I'll
send
people
to
the
blog
post
if
they
want
to
see
it,
but
that's
my
short
little
primer
for
my
thoughts
on
community.
A
Fantastic,
that
was
a
solid
that
was
a
solid
introduction.
One
one
thing
that
really
strikes
me
about
what
you're
calling
out
here
is
that
I
can't
I
can't
highlight
another
area
where
there's
a
business
motion.
That's
so
central
to
success,
which
is
which
is
so
undefined,
like
you,
think,
about
most
most
functions
in
a
business
like
marketing
or
engineering
or
product,
and
if,
if
I
took
you
know,
10
random
people
and
asked
them,
you
know
what
does
this
job
entail?
A
What
does
success
look
like
and
and
how
does
it
contribute
to
the
success
of
the
overall
business
and
I'll
get
10
answers
that
are
more
or
less
the
same,
and
here
I
think,
what's
what's
sort
of
special
and
maybe
is
in
in
in
a
difficult
sense.
Is
that
I
don't
think
that
if
I
ask
10
people
like
you
know,
what's
the
purpose
of
this
business
function,
what
does
success?
Look
like?
What
does
the
job
entail?
What
level
of
talent
do
we
need
to
hire
in
order
to
accomplish
this?
A
Well,
even
you
know
things
as
boring
as,
like
you
say,
sort
of
like
you
know
where
on
the
totem
pole,
like
you
know
who
who
does
who's
responsible
for
this
and
who
do
they
report
to
that
level
of
of
definition,
I
don't
think
I'm
going
to
get
10
answers
that
are
mostly
the
same.
I
think
I'm
going
to
get
10
wildly
different
answers
that
that
don't
resemble
one
another.
C
Yeah,
if
I
could
add
two
as
well,
this
is
something
that's
come
up
really
recently
for
me,
because
I
shipped
a
youtube
video
yesterday
focused
on
like
what
the
future
of
devrel
looks
like
so
think
about
community
and
how
that
sort
of
changed,
even
in
us
being
all
remote,
there's
no
real,
like
structure.
C
I
think
the
everything
everybody
can
kind
of
do
something
to
move
the
needle,
but
I
think
the
folks
are
doing
really
good
jobs
is
when
you
look
at
that
model
of
the
orbit,
the
folks
as
you
bring
more
and
more
people
closer
to
nucleus.
C
They
stick
around
longer
and
I
think
one
thing
that
swix
and
I
had
in
common-
is
that
well
a
couple
things
we
had
in
common
like
I
was
part
of
that
react,
sub
subreddit
as
well.
We
also
spent
time
at
netlify,
so,
like
I've
saw
a
lot
of
the
same
stuff
that
swix
has
saw
and
what
he's?
C
I
agree
with
everything
that
he
said
too,
as
well
and
the
things
that
I
think
I
saw
successful
at
netflix
that
we
had
a
community
of
folks
who
were
just
really
excited
about
the
product
and
we
found
ways
to
bring
them
closer
to
the
the
inner
circle
to
the
point
where
there
are
identify
employees
who
now
who
who
came
from
that
community.
So
when
you
think
of
like
recruiting
or
not
just
actually
using
the
product,
but
if
you're
looking
for
your
next
advocate,
it
should
come
from
the
community.
That's
already
existed.
B
Yeah
I
one
of
the
points
that
I
made
was
that,
if
hiring
is
your
biggest
problem,
just
like
99
of
other
startups
or
companies
in
general,
it
doesn't
have
to
be
startups.
Then
building
a
strong
community
helps
you
source
very
much
higher
quality
of
employee
than
you
know,
just
picking
any
random.
A
A
Excuse
me:
I
thought
that
there
was
a
lot
more
there
than
I
expected.
You
know
like
I
expected
going
into
it
just
like.
Well
what
benefits
am
I
going
to
see
from
from
doing
this?
Well?
Well,
you
know
I'll.
Do
a
better
job
at
outreach.
I'll
do
a
better
job
at
uptake
of
my
product,
but
you
know
I
hadn't
thought
of
the
hiring
angle,
even
though
that's
you
know
it's
playing
right
there
in
front
of
us.
A
You
know
if
you
build
a
strong
community,
you
have
a
very
like
high
quality
pool
in
which
to
to
sort
of
fish
for
for
for,
for
stand-out
employees
that
it's
a
source
of
of
not
exactly
free
marketing.
But
you
know
it's
like
you
have
a
chance
of
growing
a
class
of
evangelist
people
that
are
going
to
go
out
and
spread
the
word
about
about
what
whatever
it
is
that
you're
doing.
I
I've.
B
A
B
I've
even
gone
one
step
further,
so
I
took
the
hiring
thing
to
the
extreme,
so
the
com,
the
startup,
that
I
work
at
right
now
temporal.
We
actually
started
listing
jobs
for
our
customers
so
that
we
can
help
them
hire
based
on
based
on
through
us.
So
so
like.
B
Okay,
if
you
don't
work
for
us,
but
just
come
work
at
one
of
the
con
want
to
come
to
one
of
our
customer
companies
and
it's
just
like
a
it
like
we
win
if
they
win,
you
know
what
I
mean
and-
and
it's
you
can
just
take
this
to
an
extreme
level
where
you
just
start
becoming
a
de
facto
recruiting
agency
if
you're
really
good.
B
But
I
do.
I
do
think
that,
like
you
know,
if
you
do
a
really
good
job
of
community,
actually
you're
the
the
person's
membership
in
your
community
actually
outlives
their
present
employer
and
that
that's
a
really
strong
community.
That's
like
okay,
I'm
I'm,
first
and
foremost
a
member
of
your
developer
community.
Then
secondarily,
I
just
happen
to
be
at
this
company
right
now,
but
you
know
I
do.
I
do
have
my
primary
network
within
within
your
community.
That's
a
really
strong
one.
C
It-
and
I
guess,
could
I
add,
actually
get
some
clarification
too
from
you
swix
when
you
talk
about
these
terms
like
devops,
who,
like
everybody,
knows
what
devops
is
now.
It
wasn't
an
unknown
thing.
C
You
know
ten
plus
years
ago,
but
when
you
build
a
community
like
what
are
some
sort
of
like
ways,
you
can
avoid
those
pitfalls,
because
I
know
every
time
I
go
to
an
event
and
I
join
a
random
slack
channel
for
just
that
event
like
I
leave
that
slack
channel
as
soon
as
it's
done
so,
like
I'm
curious
what
your
your
thoughts
are
as
far
as
building
community
from
scratch.
C
Sorry
I
use
devops
because
devops
is
a
very
clear
term,
there's
already
established
community,
but
if
I
started
b
doug
e
conference,
everybody
join
the
movement
like
it's
going
to
be
a
challenge,
because
it's
going
to
be
me
and
maybe
a
couple
people
in
chat
so
like
how
do
I
make
sure
that
this
is
not
another
community?
That's
become
stagnant
or
stale
like
I
want
to
create
the
next
device.
I
got
you.
I
got
you.
I.
B
Got
you
yeah,
I
think
so
you
and
I,
of
course,
we're
very
informed
by
an
lfi
experience
for
anyone
who
doesn't
know
vidagi
actually
started
the
whole
death
row
practice
at
nullify,
and
I
basically
you
know,
was
one
fourth
of
his
job
after
he
left
anyway,
and
something
that
nullified
then,
which
was
brilliant,
was
that
they
didn't
create
the
nullify
movement.
They
didn't
create
the
the
netify
conference.
B
They
create
the
jam
stack
movement
in
the
jazz
conference,
and-
and
I
really
I
like
this
idea-
that
you
build
something
that's
bigger
than
yourself
like
you-
build
a
movement
that
other
people
can
evol
get
involved
with
and
see
themselves
in
to
the
point
where
they
start
competing
with
you,
and
you
have
to
be
okay
with
it.
If
you're
so
mission,
driven
that
you're
okay
losing
because
someone
did
your
job
better
than
you,
then
you
then
you've
really
found
something
that's
worth
building
a
community
around,
because
otherwise
it's
just
you're
building
a
cult.
B
I
guess
where
it's
standard
around
you
and-
and
so
I
I
really
like
that,
for
example,
I'll
give
you
a
concrete
example
which
is
at.
I
think
our
second
jam
stack,
confident
nullify.
B
We
invited
people
from
microsoft,
competitor
in
in
some
ways
who
did
not
use
nullify
at
all,
did
not
pitch
nullify
at
all,
but
just
presented
their
ideas
on
jab
stack
and
we
invited
them
as
a
speaker
and
had
yeah
I
mean
I,
I
I
think
that
we
should
have
more,
and
you
know,
competitive
competitor
companies
also
visited
the
conference
as
well.
I
think
we
should
have
more
of
that.
B
I
think
it
shows
a
fundamental
level
of
security
that
you're
like
okay,
I'm
not
threatened
by
you
or,
like
I
care
about
this
enough
that
you
know
there.
This
is
big
enough
that
multiple
players
can
win
in
this
space.
That's
a
real
community,
whereas
you
know
a
lot
of
other
times,
you're,
just
kind
of
running
it
to
as
a
feeder
service
into
into
into
your
marketing,
funnel.
C
Yeah,
I,
like
the
the
thought
about
building
a
community,
that's
bigger
than
yourself,
and
I
think,
like
speaking
from
github's
perspective,
because
I
was
a
long
time
user
recently
employed
at
github
in
the
last
three
years.
Not
really
that
reason,
but
in
startup
worlds
that's
that's
kind
of
that's
like
forever
ago,
but
what
I'm
getting
at
is
like
the
whole
git
collaboration
open
source
protocol.
C
Like
I
don't
I
like
that,
github
didn't
sort
of
try
to
strangle
it
and
try
to
own
it
completely.
There
are
other
competitors
are
doing
a
great
job
in
having
collaboration
tools
around
get
up,
get
just
get
in
general
and
that
sort
of
funnel
of
new
users,
community
conferences,
slack
rooms,
discords.
It's
been
helpful
for
me
in
doing
my
job,
because
there's
already
established
community
that
I
can
just
go
in
and
not
try
to
take
leadership
on,
but
more
of
like
hey.
I
want
to
learn
from
you
as
well.
B
Yeah
totally
totally,
I
I
do
think
that
at
some
level,
there's
there's
a
transition
from
like
okay.
This
is
bigger
than
yourself,
but
then
at
some
point,
you're
you're,
big
enough
that
you
are
a
community
on
your
own,
and
I
think
you
know
once
you're
past,
like
50
million
developers,
you
can
have
your
own
community.
That's
totally
fine
same
thing
for
like
salesforce
and
dreamforce
and
aws
and
re
invents
like
we
all.
B
A
You
know
it's
always
it's
always
hard
to
sort
of
stay
away
from
like
blatant
advertising
when
it
comes
to
like
developers
like
you
know.
Who
do
I
work
for
what
is
it
that
they
make?
That's
obviously
going
to
be
a
central
part
of
the
discussion.
If
you
know
I'm
representing
you
know,
company,
x
or
y,
but
you
highlighted
that
you
know
for
netlify,
the
story
was
not.
A
It
was
not
nfi,
it
was
jam
stack
for
github,
it
wasn't
look
at
github
and
and
and
our
specific
web
app,
but
the
the
collaborative
nature
of
open
source,
specifically
powered
by
decentralized
version
control
and,
like
you
know,
the
git
is
important.
The
pull
requests
are
important.
The
rest
of
the
stuff
that
gita
brings
is
important,
but
it's
not
that's
not
the
thing
that's
going
to
emotionally
resonate
with
with
people
on
its
own.
A
Not
unless
you
have
such
a
you
know
so
much
of
a
better
product
that
it's
like.
Oh
my
god,
people
are
wowed
by
just
the
existence
of
this
thing,
which
is
great.
If
you
can
pull
that
off
like
more
power
to
you,
you
know,
I
think
you
you
touched
on
this
sort
of
linear
path.
A
Okay,
like
you
have
a
story,
you
tell
it
and
you
think
about
this,
this
path
that
that
you
want
to
take
people
a
journal
journey
that
you
want
to
take
people
along
that
starts
in
sort
of
marketing
territory
and
ends
in
sales
territory.
Hopefully,
and
then,
by
contrast,
you
know
coming
back
to
the
to
the
orbit
model,
one
of
the
sort
of
assertions
you
made
there
is
that
the
urban
model
is
not
it's
not
strictly
linear
that
it
has
these
other
dimensions.
A
It
has
this
love
dimension,
basically
like
a
measure
of
of
activity
and
reach
as
a
as
a
as
a
measure
of
influence,
but
when
I
still
look
at
this
this
model,
it's
still
talking
about
these
sort
of
concentric
rings
of
you
know.
You
start
at
the
very
outermost
orbit.
You
know
as
just
an
observer
and
ostensibly
you
move
move
your
way
into
the
middle.
That
still
seems
like
a
relatively
you
know,
linear
journey
to
me,
I
think
it's
curious.
A
I
you
know
that
they
that
they
put
advocates
at
as
the
the
closest
the
innermost
ring
versus
contributors,
because
when
I
think
about
sort
of
like
where,
where
do
I
spend
the
maximum
amount
of
energy,
it's
in
contributing,
it's
not
an
obvious.
It's
really
easy
for
me
to
advocate.
I
can
advocate
react
until
the
the
cows
come
home
and
you
know
all
I
got
to
do
is
write
like
nice.
Things
about
react,
but
contributing
to
react.
A
That's
already
like
a
an
effortful
activity,
so
I'm
I'm
curious
sort
of
you
know
about
that.
That
journey
like
what
do
you
think
is
it?
Is
it
really
about
getting
people
to
contribution?
Is
contribution
just
sort
of
like
a
left
turn
on
this?
Does
this
make
sense
to
you?
I
don't
know,
I'm
curious
what
you
think
about
this.
B
I
feel
like
they've,
probably
written
this
up,
so
I'm
actually
looking
up
the
the
the
writer
right
now,
because
this
is
probably
a
better
question
for
patrick
woods
who
came
over
this
model,
but
I
agree
with
you
on
principle,
at
least
in
the
open
source
context.
The
people
who
number
people
who
contribute
are
far
less
than
the
number
of
people
who
advocate
for
a
thing
and
maybe
that
that
should
be
the
inner
circle.
B
C
I
do
have
some
thoughts
because
I
I
know
patrick
and
I
know
josh
pretty
well
and
I
have
been
able
to
rub
shoulders
with
them.
So
the
founders
of
the
orbit
model
are
the
orbit
commun
company
as
well,
and
I
talked
to
patrick
on
his
podcast,
which
is
called
developer
love
in
episode.
One.
You
can
hear
way
more
detail.
C
So
I
was
given
the
reins
to
do
developer
relations
at
get
up
figure
out
what
that
meant,
and
at
that
time
I
had
to
sort
of
figure
out
also
what
that
meant,
but
also
give
a
talk
at
developer
devrelcon,
because
we
had
a
speaking
slot
and
I
I
call
myself
the
beyonce
of
github,
and
I
do
that
tongue-in-cheek-
and
I
joke
around
about
that.
C
But
I
do
that
because,
like
I
don't
play,
I
don't
play
beyonce's
music
all
day
every
day
like
I
don't
you
know,
I
don't
know
how
to
play
the
backing
tracks
on
bass
or
anything
like
that.
So
I'm
not
really
contributing
in
that
sense,
but
I
will
tell
you
about
beyonce
and
tell
you
her
story
and
I
think
it's
the
same
thing
of
open
source.
Like
I
made
a
contribution
to
node.js
back
in
november.
It
was
a
really
painful
process.
I
learned
a
ton
and
my
contribution
to
node.js
was
that
I
write
blog
posts.
C
I
did
a
contribution
on
the
repo,
but
the
difference
is
when
I
get
on
stage
and
I
show
you
how
to
write
a
script
in
node
and
I
go
around
and
I
share
I'm
like
why
note
is
still
great,
despite
deno
or
dino,
and
all
these
sort
of
rus
compiler
times
like
I'm
still
advocating
for
node.js,
and
I
think
if
you
can
bring
more
people
to
the
sort
of
inner
circle,
I
think
that's
that's
always
going
to
be
super
helpful
and
if
you
have
people
who
are
going
to
be
the
mouthpiece,
I
guess
what
I'm
getting
at
is
my
job
at
github
is
not
to
be
the
number
one
developer
advocate
in
the
world.
C
My
job
is
to
build
more
developer
advocates.
So
if
you
can
advocate
get
on
github
on
behalf
of
github
and
I
don't
have
to
be
involved,
then
that's
an
entire
automation,
automated
process.
Now
you
can
argue
contributions.
I
can
automate
that
and
it's
going
to
grow
and
sustain
the
project,
but
there
are
a
lot
of
github
projects
or
sorry.
C
Open
source
projects
have
lots
of
contributions
that
you've
never
heard
of
so
like
until
someone
tells
me
that
exists,
or
I
see
it
on
the
trending
tab,
it's
going
to
be
a
hard
sort
of
a
hard
thing
to
focus
on
to
try
to
get
more
contributors
when
no
one's
actually
knows
about
this
project.
A
Right,
there's,
there's
definitely
I
mean
that's,
definitely
like
a
like
a
hurdle
to
be
crossed
in
terms
of
just
like
you
know.
Where
do
I
even
hear
about
this?
I
mean
obviously
there's
there's
you
can
think
of
that,
as
I'm
sure
not
coming
from
a
marketing
background.
A
You
know
I'm
sure
those
entire
textbooks
about
sort
of
the
phase
of
like
you
know
how
do
I
get
people
to
even
know
that
I
exist
before
I
like
you
know
how
do
I
I
wedge
the
door
open
long
enough
for
me
to
attempt
to
get
across
like
and
here's
why
you
should
care
about
me
there's
a
whole
phase
of
of
of
just
spreading
the
word.
B
That's
why
that's
why?
I
think
you
know
we
I
do.
I
do
think
that
we
do
need
technical
community
builders,
whatever
the
you
know,
whatever
you
call
this
thing,
they
they
probably
need
to
be
technical
because
they
need
to
have
that
technical
leadership
of
like
I
authentically,
went
through
the
same
journey
that
I'm
telling
you
that
I'm
you
know
hoping
that
you
also
go
through
with
me
on
this,
and-
and
this
is
something
that
non-technical
community
managers
cannot
do.
B
So
it's
like
a
weird
thing
where
you
have
to
hire
someone
on
a
who,
like
has
a
software
engineering
background
or
like
is
it
you
know,
pay
them
like
a
developer,
but
then
put
them
on
non-technical
things
which
is
community,
is
less
technical
right.
You
know,
I,
I
don't
know
it's
a
weird
job.
It's
just.
C
How
can
I
advocate
on
the
behalf
of
this
product
to
make
this
better,
and
how
can
I
bring
that
information
back
to
whoever
makes
decisions
at
this
project,
company,
maintainer
level
or
whatnot,
and
it's
just
like
I.
I
just
still
think
it's
one
step
more
than
just
contributing
keeping
the
lights
on
it's
more
like
hey.
I
want
to
also
bring
that
feedback.
How
can
I
improve
this
and
I
think
the
the
roles
inside
the
community?
C
I
think
technical
community
manager
it's
a
great
role,
because
it
actually
touches
all
those
different
pillars
and
specifically
in
the
overpowered
model.
I
know
we're
focused
on
that,
but,
like
being
able
to,
you
know
turn
it
on
turn
it
off
and
also
know
how
to
listen
as
well
are
very
valuable.
Like
attributes
that
I
would
love
to
have
on
my
team
at
github
for
sure,
and
we
do
have
those
by
the
way
I
just
just
want
to
set
the
record.
A
Just
to
be
just
to
be
up
front
and
clear,
so
I
think
I
think
we're
all
dancing
around
a
little
bit
sort
of
the
the
the
bigger
question
of
what
are
the
qualities
like.
What
are
what
does
success?
Look
like
for
this
role?
How
does
it?
How
has
it
changed
like
you
know,
if
we,
if
we
called
the
role
previously
developer
relations
and
now
we're
calling
it
this
subtly
different
name
around
technical
community
building
and
sort
of
the
the
the
stewardship
and
the
shepherding
of
a
community?
A
What
what's
success?
How
is
success
different
in
in
this
sort
of
like
slightly
different,
like
mental
model
and
and
what's
different
in
the
day-to-day,
like
you
know,
if,
if
previously,
you
know
previously,
I
was
doing
devrel,
and
that
meant
I
was
doing
x,
y
and
z
with
my
days
in
order
to
succeed
at
my
job
and
contribute
to
the
success
of
the
business.
B
Yeah,
so
I
can
give
a
crack
at
it
and
then
I'm
sure
dougie
has
other
thoughts.
You
know
at
amazon.
B
I
can
tell
you
directly
the
the
kpis
that
we
were
reporting
and
were
sort
of
to
the
outside
world.
That's
that's
the
only
thing
that
they
expect
out
of
us,
which
is
number
of
views
on
the
content
that
we
produce
right,
very
depersonalized,
you're.
Just
a
number
to
me.
Did
I
get
a
thousand.
Did
I
get
ten
thousand?
Did
I
get
a
hundred
thousand?
I
did
a
better
job.
It
was
a
bigger
number
great,
but
there's
no
relationship
there.
There's
no
measurement
of
quality
like
was
was.
B
Did
they
just
like
glance
at
the
title,
or
did
they
actually
read
the
whole
thing
and
try
out
the
demo?
There
are
different
weights
for
different.
You
know
actions
that
people
can
take
and-
and
we
do
try
to
track
that,
but
it's
all
a
joke
like
it's.
No
everyone
knows
that
it's
kind
of
a
joke.
You
know
it's
a
proxy
to
what
we
really
want,
which
is
people
trying
you
out
and
seeing
if
they
like
you
and
you
know
short
of
standing
over
their
shoulders.
B
You
can't
really
get
that
so
so
I
think
what
I
what
I
do.
What
I
do
like
is
that
orbit
is
trying
to
innovate
on
that
by
measuring.
You
know
what
they
call
love,
which
is
just
the
intensity
of
activity
which
is
kind
of
the
the
same
thing,
but
tracked
on
a
per
person
basis
and
and
and
so
just
in,
and
that
opens
up
the
possibility
of
like
having
more
of
like
a
crm
model,
which
is
very
much.
B
The
sales
idea
of,
like
you
know,
have
have
an
idea
of
the
customer
journey
from
beginning
to
end
and
suggest
or
automate
engagements
as
they
as
they
come
along
on
the
journey
which,
which
is
less
it's
just
a
lot
less
transactional
like
and
even
at
nullify
like
I
was
when
you
get
to
the
point
of
like
attaching
utm
tags
to
your
post,
to
see
the
the
response
of
of
your
campaigns.
B
C
Yeah
to
add
to
that
too,
as
well
like
I
I'm
all,
I'm
definitely
against
trying
to
look
at
views
and
how
many
people
are
in
the
stream
right
now,
because
I
think
that's
you,
you've
sort
of
lost
it
at
that
point.
C
But
I
think
what
success
looks
like
is
the
names
that
I
see
in
this
chat
right
now.
I
see
a
lot
of
familiar
names
so
how
many
of
those
familiar
names.
So
I
see
next
time
because
those
are
my-
and
I
don't
even
know
this
term
tumblers
that
you
mentioned
in
your
slides
because
I've
seen
this
around,
but
I
didn't
know
what
that
was.
C
The
party
corgi
chat
has
tumblers
and
I
didn't
know
what
tumblrs
were
until
today,
but
I
guess
I
have
an
anecdote
too,
as
well
from
netlify
when
I
was
there
and
we
we
were
sort
of
bottom
growing
and
we
had
this
opportunity
to
speak,
speak
and
also
attend
and
have
a
booth
at
react
rally,
and
it
would
have
been
super
easy
to
say:
hey.
Can
you
fill
out
this
form
and
we'll
send
you
we'll
get
your
email
and
then
you
have
a
chance
to
win.
C
You
know
this
thing
at
netlify
and
instead
my
approach
at
that
conference,
which
was
like
one
of
the
first
conferences
I
ever
had
any
sort
of
marketing
advertising.
C
Whatever
my
approach
was
come
to
the
booth,
we
had
a
nintendo
switch
on
the
on
the
booth
table
and
then
we
had
a
bunch
of
stickers
and
the
thing
was:
if
you
switch
to
nullify,
which
is
like
it
was
a
pun
really
and
then
we'll
give
you
a
chance
to
win
the
switch
and
the
step
was
all
you
had
to
do
is
scan
a
qr
code
and
then
click
the
deploy
to
notify
button.
That
was
on
that
that
website
or
sorry
it
was
a
github
repo.
C
You
put
click
the
deploy,
notify
button
and
then
inside
the
site
you
deployed
from
netlify
after
15
to
30
seconds
it
took.
I
happened
to
be
a
gapsby
site,
so
we
were
like
on
brand
for
the
conference.
Then
you
read
the
website,
you
just
deployed
and
the
instruction
says,
click
this
button
to
tweet
and
if
you
tweet,
that
would
actually
put
you
in
a
hashtag
and
I
had
a
node
server.
That
would
then
pick
a
random
person,
so
we
did
this
for
three
days.
C
I
think
the
conference
was
like
600
700
and
we
had
about
325
people
who
participated
and
then,
after
the
first
day
we
knew
we
engaged
a
community,
because
the
next
day
two
or
three
people
came
and
said,
hey,
I
clicked
the
button
and
then
I
saw
what
you
deployed
and
it
was
a
gatsby
site
and
at
the
time
gatsby
wasn't
even
1.0
so
like
nobody
would
use
gatsby
at
that
time
and
they're
like
yeah,
I
switched
my
entire
blog
to
gatsby
and
it's
hosted
on
lfi.
C
So
then
we
know
hey
this
person's
actually
super
engaged.
This
is
this.
Is
my
next
advocate,
like
I'm
gonna,
whatever
you
need
I'll
give
you
a
sweater
t-shirt.
Even
if
you
don't
win
the
switch
like,
I
will
engage
you
and
give
you
everything.
You
need
to
continue
down
this
path,
and
that
was
the
focus
and
like
for
marketing.
It
looked
great,
but
we
didn't
have
the
sort
of
traditional
fill
out
this
web
form.
It
was
this
click.
C
This
button
use
the
product,
if
you
don't
want
it
or
if
you
want
to
delete
the
repo
by
all
means
github
at
the
time
github
had
all
your
information
like
we
weren't,
even
collecting
your
information
so
like
the
goal
is
just
really
just
try
it
take
it
for
a
test
drive
and
then,
if
it
works
out
for
you,
we
have
this
forum.
We
have
this
community.
We
have
github
issues
like
this
jump
in
where
you
fit
in.
B
Yeah
and
then
we
also,
I
think,
potential
enterprise
team
customers.
This
was
after
brian
left,
but
you
know
we
also
had
like
a
separate
process
for
potential
customers
to
highlight
to
the
sales
team,
where
we
actually
scanned
their
badges
and
took
down
info
and
basically
fed
in
directly
to
their
crms
or
whatever,
and
that
was
pretty
good
because,
like
we
were
able
to
capture
a
lot
of
really
useful
detail
that
gave
our
sales
people
a
really
good
head
start.
C
Yeah-
and
you
just
don't
know
who
you're,
who
you're
chatting
with
to
as
well,
because
that
that
story,
I
just
shared
about
being
out,
react
rally.
One
of
the
people
who
walked
up
and
said
hey.
This
is
actually
pretty
cool.
That
person
was
max
toy,
burr
and
max
story.
Berg,
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
people
know
him.
He
used
to
actually
work
github
for
time.
He
built
a
whole
product
got
acquired
by
github
and
now
he's
at
gatsby
as
well.
Coincidentally,
but
I
never
met
max,
I
just
knew
who
he
was.
C
I
knew
of
the
story
and
then
we
connected
and
like
he
didn't
like
he
wasn't
like
the
number
one
netflix
fanboy,
I'm
pretty
sure
he
didn't
walk
away
shipping
everything
to
netlify,
but
we
made
that
connection.
So
every
time
I
had
a
conversation
with
max,
or
he
remembered
me
that
was
like
a
nice
serendipitous
moment
of
like
oh
yeah,
we
met.
B
C
That
one
time
that
when
I
did
that
thing
and
like
you
just
can't
put
a
metric
to
that
of
like
what
big
names
do
you
know
that
well
like
at
the
time
max
was
like
he
wasn't
even
a
big
name,
but
like
you
just
yeah,
you
can't
quantify
that.
You
can't
put
a
number
to
that.
You
just
kind
of
have
to
go
with
it.
B
Yeah
it's
so
it's
a
domino
effect
and
there's
also
like
a
density
effect
like
one
person
using
it
all
right,
cool
two
people,
all
right
cool,
but
then
like
three
prominent
people,
then
it
starts
to
become
a
thing
you
know.
So
I
like
that
concentration
of,
like
presence
which,
which
also
points
to
it
being
more
of
a
community
right.
So
yeah.
C
B
C
Never
I
went
to
the
github
office
and
my
goal
as
a
get
up
employee
today
and
a
developer
advocate
is
I
want
to
put
via
face
to
a
company
that
has
an
octa
cad
for
a
face
like
I
want
you
to
know
who
to
reach
out
to,
and
if
it's
me
or
if
it's
not
me
like
I'll,
give
you
the
right
person
and
that's
like
one
of
my
goals
at
github
to
do
to
be
an
advocate
for
getting
you
the
right,
router
you're,
the
writer.
A
A
Exactly
it
turns
out
that
it's
interesting,
though,
that,
because
the
the
this
role
that
you
you
just
described,
this
thing
exists:
it's
called
an
ombudsman
and
if
you're
sort
of
familiar
this,
I
think
it
comes
out
of
the
military.
A
Like
you
know,
this
is
like
the
person
that
the
families
at
home
are
in
touch
with
in
order
to
like
you
know,
reach
their
their
loved
ones
that
are
deployed
wherever
and
have
any
concerns
or
whatever,
and
so
that
there's
a
there's
a
sort
of
like
a
name
for
for
for
this
role
of,
like
you
know,
liaison
into
the
company,
an
actual
human
that
can
you
know,
step
in
and
maybe
not
help
you
solve
your
problem
directly,
but
at
least
point
you
in
the
right
direction,
like
you
know,
attach
you
to
the
person
that
can
actually
help
you
move
forward,
but
you're
you're
right
in
saying
that
there's,
like
you
know
these,
aren't
you
haven't
really
given
me
like
hard
metrics,
like
you
know,
if
I'm
now
going
to
pitch
to
a
company
like
hey
here's,
what
I'm
going
to
do
for
you
they're
going
to
be
like.
A
B
There
is
a
company
that
actually
does
that
which
is
weaver.ai,
they
call
it
community
qualified
leads
and
they
take
a
very
salesy
model.
To
to
this,
like
direct
attribution
towards
sales
and
marketing,
and
all
that
and
so
yeah
I
mean,
once
you
have
the
tracking
system
in
place,
you
can
def,
you
can
absolutely
do
that
and
if
you
need
to
quantify
in
that
way,
then
absolutely
yeah.
You
know
I
I
I
don't
necessarily
feel
that
strongly
because
it
tends
to
be
then
become
a
fight
for
whoever
is
the
last
touch.
B
Who
gets
the
most
attribution,
which
makes
it
a
very
political
thing,
sometimes
between
departments
and.
B
Yeah,
it's
like
so
for
me,
I
don't
know
if
you
guys
have
played
kerbal
space
program.
C
B
Okay,
I'll
just
give
you
like
the
rough
intuition
when
you,
when
you
start
off,
trying
to
get
the
rocket
from
off
the
ground
into
into
orbit
you're
very
concerned
with
all
the
tiny
little
mechanics
of
like
what
degree
tilt
you're
doing
what
what
your
yaw
is
and
pitch
and
whatever
and
your
velocity
and
your
weight
and
and
the
stages
that
you
do,
but
once
you're
basically
kind
of
at
velocity
and
in
space.
You
then
only
care
about
your
like
dv.
B
Well,
I
forget
what
the
the
the
calculus
is,
but,
like
you,
only
care
about
your
high
level
metrics
and
you
don't
actually
care
about
the
low
level
stuff
because
you're
you're
you're
beyond
that
you're
kind
of
cruising
at
a
speed
where
you
you
should
just
move
the
big
controls
that
actually
matter
and
then
and
leave
the
leave
the
minor
attributions
to
to
like
random
noise
or
like
it's
going
to
bubble
up.
B
If
it
actually
becomes
a
problem,
and
I
I
think
that
that's
how
large
enough
communities
should
be
managed
like
as
long
as
as
long
as
your
efforts
are
growing
at
a
decent
rate.
You
can
trust
that
it
probably
will
trickle
down
to
whatever
you.
Don't
really
have
to
be
too
precise
about
how
exactly
you
attribute
it.
That's
at
least
my
intuition.
B
B
I
have
a
question
for
you
guys
if,
if
you
want
to
entertain
this,
so
there's
a
there's,
a
problem
in
my
mind,
which
I
haven't
resolved,
which
is
this
idea
of
a
super
user,
so
at
net
lift
netlife,
we
call
them
network
friends
at
github,
you
call
them
github
stars
stripe
has
drive
community
experts.
These
are
an
aws
aws
community
builders.
These
are
basically
unpaid.
Super
users,
which
you
give
some
kind
of
you
know
perks,
but
they're
kind
of
your
external
third
party
advocates.
B
What
do
you
think
about
them?
How
do
you
make
them
effective
and-
and
basically
everyone
is
new
to
this
game
like
github
stars
program
is
like
a
few
months
old
right
or
maybe
a
year
old,
yeah.
B
C
Yeah,
I
could
speak
on
partially
behalf
of
github
and
something
that
I've
always
also
put
a
lot
of
thought
into
before
I
got
I
could
help,
because
I
was
trying
to
it's
ironic,
because
I
was
trying
to
help
build
what
was
now
in
the
network,
friends
and
but
I
I
just
didn't
have
time
before
I
left
to
actually
see
that
do
what
it
is
today,
but
I
had
that
same
thought
of
like
what
it's
kind
of
the
reason
I
gave
that
talk
on
so
being
the
beyonce
of
github
is
because
beyonce
has
a
super
fan
group
and
they're
called
the
beehive.
C
They're,
as
intense
of,
if
you
go
after
beyonce,
the
bee
high
will
show
up
and-
and
it's
not
not
as
that
intense,
but
it's
like
when
people
came
after
her
after
she
had
the
baby,
like
people.
C
Yeah
and
it's
the
same
that
we
saw
with
the
the
k-pop-
stands
like
bts,
that's
a
little
like
more
extreme,
but
like
there's
a
group
that
will
go
to
bat
for
you
and
like
my
job,
is
to
really
go
to
go
to
bat
for
the
hive.
So
to
answer
your
question
like
success,
looks
like
these
are
the
folks
that
are
creating
the
courses.
Writing
the
books,
they're
they're,
on
the
forefronts
of
creating
the
youtube
videos.
C
When
the
thing
is
announced
like
it's
the
opportunity
to
give
them
as
much
information
as
they
want,
so
if
they
want
to
monetize
that
they
can,
if
they
want
to
grow
community
around
it,
they
can,
but
it's
simply
like
they're
doing
a
good
job
and
we
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
catering
to
them,
because
you
don't,
if,
if
someone's
already
doing
like
my
job
for
me,
like
I'm
all
for
hey,
let's,
let's
have
a
coffee.
Let's,
let's
learn:
what
are
your
blockers?
C
How
can
I
unblock
you
in
the
future
or
are
there
any
features
you're
looking
to
like
to
ship
like?
Let
me
introduce
you
to
pm
and
let
me
let
the
pm
get
your
feedback
directly.
So,
like
you
just
take
the
company
directly
to
the
source
of
the
the
growth
and
that's
that's
what
I
see
it
as,
and
I've
seen
very.
I've
had
similar
talks
to
other
leaders
of
these
sort
of
groups,
and
that's
usually
what
their
goal
is
is
like
this
help
empower
folks
through
the
people
who
are
empowering
their
product.
A
I
I'm
like
strongly
reminded
of
there's
a
post
from
way
back
in
the
the
dinosaur
ages
about
success
being
a
function
of
of
being
able
to
grow
a
thousand
superfans
and
that
if
you
can
find
a
way
to
to
reach
that
sort
of
threshold
and
it's
thrown
out
there,
I
think
in
the
same
sense,
as
I
don't
remember
who
coined
the
like.
You
know
mastery
comes
at
ten
thousand
hours
or
something
like
that
is
sort
of
like
a
order
of
magnitude
like
when
you
reach
this.
A
This
this
tipping
point,
then
that's
that's
a
signal
that,
like
you
know
what
you're
doing
is
working,
and
maybe
maybe
this
is
the
the
kind
of
metric
that
that
we're
looking
at
it's
not
views,
it's
not
posts.
It's
like
you
know
how
many,
how
many
engaged
super
fans
are.
Are
we
creating
how
many
people
do
we
have
that
love
the
thing
that
we're
doing
so
much
that
they're
going
out
of
their
way
to
spread
that
to
more
people
and
looking
at
that
is
sort
of
the
like.
A
You
say
about
the
kerbal
space
program
sort
of,
like
you
know
the
gross
levers
of
of
success.
Not
the
little
like
fine-tuning
adjustment
dials
but,
like
you
know
the
big
steering
wheel.
That
indicates
that,
like
we're
doing
the
right
thing,
I
don't
know
I
mean
the
this
this
question
of.
Like
you
know
what
has
been
the
impact
of
of
github
stars.
This
has
only
existed.
I
guess
now,
since
w
since
september.
A
So
if
this
is
like
a
hot
minute
old-
or
maybe
it's
like
a
thousand
years
old,
it's
unclear.
C
Yeah,
and
actually
I
I
think
the
official
launch
was
september-
we
actually
started
formating
this
form,
I
guess
making
the
formation
of
the
stars
around
may
june,
and
I
get
to
have
like
a
very
clear
impact
that
we
I
saw
from
my
end,
which
we
we
watched.
This
feature
called
the
github
profile.
Readme,
it's
a
feature
everybody
has
access
to,
but
at
the
time
we
had
this
sort
of
under
wraps
and
like
a
super
alpha,
and
we
do
for
all
features
at
github.
C
We
have
the
staff
ship
that
we
call
it
which
is
like
alpha
alpha
or
whatever
comes
before
alpha,
but
that's
what
we
we,
how
we
test
our
features
so
get
up,
employees
all
leveraged
it
and
it
sort
of
like
came
out
of
nowhere.
As
far
as
this
feature
goes
and
with
might
have
access
to
it.
We
were
able
to
get
this
in
front
of
stars
pretty
early
on
to
the
point
where
we
actually
had
to
get
upstar,
who
created
some
content
on
how
to
build
your
your
profile
readme.
C
It
was
like
pretty
cool
like
within
a
week
of
launch
and
that
basically
is
the
de
facto
tutorial
on
how
to
create
a
profile
readme
because
it
was
so
early.
This
came
out
and
this
individual
monika,
which
I
guess
I
can.
I
can
name
them
as
well.
A
That's
that's
actually
really
a
really
great.
It's
like
you
know.
I
know
that
I've
succeeded
at
this
job
when,
when
other
people's,
like
you
know,
results
outrank
mine
on
on
on
google,
then
success,
that's
fantastic.
We
actually
have
a
question
me.
A
question
here
from
jeremy
feel:
what's
the
feedback
for
for
a
feedback
loop
for
these
super
users
like
there's
sort
of
a
follow-on
question
there,
should
the
company
be
monitoring
the
output
to
manage
their
message?
I'd
argue
that
you
know
you
can't
manage
other
people's
message.
A
Otherwise
you
have
to
pay
them
a
salary,
but
but
there
is,
there
is
sort
of
a
question
if
this
is
if
this
is
part
of
what
you're
trying
to
do
as
a
community
builder
is
to
build
up
this
front
line
like
top-tier
set
of
of
super
fans.
How
do
you
help
them
succeed
at
that?
Like
what
ammunition
are
you
giving
them,
and
how
can
you
influence,
I
guess
sort
of
like
what
did
I
mean,
like
I
launched
a
new
feature?
A
What
I
really
want
is
for
my
super
fans
to
go
out
there
and
create
content
that
shows
off.
Like
you
know,
what
this
new
feature
can
do
maybe
use
it
in
ways
that
I
didn't
even
think
of
show
how
it
fits
into
like
a
million
different
workflows
and
each
of
those
super
fans
also
they
have
another
foot
into
whatever
communities
they
came
from.
So
you
know
you
say,
like
react,
svelt
view.
A
Whatever
all
these
front-end
frameworks,
I'm
going
to
have
super
fans
from
all
of
these
different
sort
of
walks
of
life
and
each
one
of
them
is
going
to
take
the
new
thing
that
I
did
and
show
like.
This
is
how
it
matters
to
the
view
community.
This
is
how
it
matters
to
the
whatever
community
and
that's,
I
think,
a
very
different
thing.
So
what
do?
What
do
you
both
think
about
that.
C
Awesome
yeah,
so
at
github
we
mentioned
the
github
stars,
but
we
have
other
groups
as
well
like
we
have
some
members
of
our
support
team
that
also
have
a
support.
Community
github
is
very
like
we
have
56
million
developers
worldwide,
which
is
sounds
like
a
flex.
It
is,
but
it
means
that
we
just
have
multiple
groups.
C
So
another
group
that
you
might
not
know
we
have
is
we
have
a
group
of
open
source
maintainers
that
we
talk
to
on
a
regular
basis
and
it's
actually
a
structured
conversation
and
a
group,
and
we
get
feedback
from
some
of
the
largest
open
source
projects
that
you've
heard
of,
and
it's
very
important
for
us
to
actually
treat
them
with
this.
C
Well,
not
treat
them,
I'm
gonna
say
treat
them
with
respect,
but
it
really
is
respecting
their
time,
providing
getting
their
feedback
directly
to
the
source
of
the
people,
who
can
actually
impact
that
feedback
into
our
our
platform.
But
as
far
as
structure
goes,
the
structure
looks
like
we
have
a
monthly
meeting
with
all
the
stars.
C
Everybody's
invited-
and
we
call
these
the
stars
inside
calls
and
like
the
pms-
will
show
up
and
talk
about
some
really
early
ideas
of
features
and
they
get
to
see
the
features
sort
of
develop
over
the
course
of
time
until
it's
ready
for
beta
and
at
that
point
stars
are
like.
Oh,
I
knew
this
was
coming
out.
C
I'll
use
this
I'll
incorporate
this
in
my
team
at
work
or
I'll
write
some
content,
whatever
you
want
to
do
with
that,
you
just
have
some
interactions
and
that's
why
we
did
the
stars
conference,
which
is
again
it
wasn't
a
huge
public
event.
It
was
more
just
for
the
stars,
so
it's
the
point
where
I
think
I've
even
used
switch.
You'd
mention
like
oh,
I
didn't
know.
This
was
a
thing
I
never
heard
of
this
before
and
I
was
like
because
yeah
we
just
did
it
and
it's
it's
only
for
the
stars.
C
But
in
addition
to
that,
like
we
did,
have
we
do
give
the
opportunity
to
have
some
unfiltered
conversations
too
as
well.
So
one
of
the
requirements
for
stars
is
to
sign
an
nda,
and
it's
just
so.
We
can
have
some
really
free-form
conversation
about
github
the
platform,
but
also
complaints
wins
everything
across
the
board.
C
A
B
Yeah
I
mean
I
like
it.
I
I
it's
a
it's
hard
to
organize.
I
think
it's
a
full-time
job.
Actually,
if
you
do
it,
if
you,
if
you
want
to
do
a
good
job
of
it,
you
know
and
again
points
to
this
thing
becoming
because
it
it
probably
is
not
who
I
mean,
I
don't
know
who
handles
it,
but
it's
probably
not
developer
relations
handling
it.
It's
it's
just
like
a.
It
is
no
production.
Oh,
it
isn't.
Okay
yeah!
You
know.
B
I
think
I
think
this
is
a
growing
field
where
we're
all
sort
of
defining
what
different
categories
of
activities
we
can
invest
in.
This
is
one
of
them.
Another
trend.
I
see
a
lot
is
people
building
universities
like
apollo
building
an
odyssey,
nullified
building
jam
stack
explorers.
I
forget
who
automation
academy
from
angie
angie
yeah?
Well,
she
yeah
she's
the
og
and
then
you
know
github
has
had
labs
or
I
forget
what
you,
what
you
guys
call
it.
B
Yeah
yeah,
I
I
tried
to
go
through
it
for
actions,
but
I
didn't
really
get
very
far
to
be
honest,
but
I
think
I
think
you
know,
like
people
are
building
like
lms's
like
custom
custom
lms's
for
for
their
learning
and
I
think
that's
another
investment
in
community
anyway.
Sorry,
I
I
don't
mean
to
ramble.
I
just
like
these
are
all
really
cool
trends
where
I
think
you
know
it's
part
of
the
whole
future
of
deveral
thesis.
I
guess.
A
Fantastic,
we
are
at
time
even
a
little
bit
over
time.
B
A
A
A
thread
in
octo
discussions
where,
if
people
have
questions
or
maybe
swix,
if
you
can
drop
some
interesting
resources
in
that
thread,.
B
A
Recording
or
who
didn't
get
a
chance
to
ask
a
question
you
know
and
think
about
it
later
when
they're
like
oh
falling
asleep,
oh
wow,
I
should
have
asked
this.
I
can
drop
in
and
and
ask
those
questions
and
and
and
get
some
follow-up
engagement
thanks
so
much
for
joining
us
swix,
especially
because
it's
like
I
don't
it's
tomorrow
in
the
middle
of
the
night
in
singapore,
it's
unclear
to
me
what
time
it
is.