►
From YouTube: OCTO Speaker Series #5 Amir Shevat
Description
Building and Measuring Developer Relations
How do you build a solid DevRel organization? How do you measure and connect your DevRel org activities to the core outcomes of your company? Come learn form Amir Shevat, VP of Developer Experience at Twitch how to build, measure and justify an awesome Developer Relations org.
About Amir Shevat
Amir Shevat is the co-founder and Chief Product Officer at Reshuffle.com. Previously, Amir was the VP of Product at Amazon’s Twitch, Director of Developer Relations at Slack, Head of Scalable Developer Programs at Google, and Developer Advocate at Microsoft. Amir lives in Palo Alto, with his wife and two kids. In his spare time, he loves to bike and cook.
Twitter: @ASHEVAT
GitHub: ASHEVAT
Web: https://medium.com/@ASHEVAT
A
And
we
wanted
to
learn
from
those
people
about
things
that
they
care
about
things
that
they
are
seeing
and
things
that
they're
doing.
And
today
I'm
very
excited
to
invite
one
of
those
speakers
here
and
we
at
github
view
that
we
have
a
a
very
important
role
to
play
in
the
future
of
software.
Though
we
know
that
others
are
building
on
us
on
github
with
us
and
around
us
to
do
that
as
well,
and
as
more
and
more
businesses
and
companies
face
developers
directly.
A
He
literally
wrote
the
book
twice
on:
building
conversational
bots
and
about
apis
that
developers
love
to
use,
and
then
he
turned
around
and
did
it
all
again
as
the
vp
of
developer
experience
at
twitch,
which
has
grown
from
its
gaming
roots
into
a
live
video
platform
for
all
kinds
of
purposes
and
then
on
I'll.
Let
him
tell
you
about
his
new
thing:
reshuffle,
which
is
an
integration
platform
for
you
guessed
it
developers,
so
I
think
you'll
enjoy
this
one
and
amir.
Thank
you
so
much
for
joining
us.
A
B
Okay,
let's
get
started.
Thank
you
for
having
me
so
much.
Okay,
it's
going
to
be
the
obligatory!
Do
you
see
my
screen
like
so
hi
everyone?
My
name
is
amir
shavats
very
excited
to
have
you
all,
I'm
going
to
talk
about
building
developer
communities
and
how
do
you
engage
developer
communities
and
about
the
profession
of
developer
relations?
B
So
if
you
have
a
startup,
a
platform
or
even
an
open
source
project,
and
you
want
to
engage
with
the
with
developers,
I
hope
this
session
will
be
useful
for
you
a
little
bit
about
myself.
So
today,
I'm
I'm
a
one-trick
pony
for
the
last
20
years.
I've
been
only
doing
developer
platforms,
engaging
with
developers,
building
developer
tools,
and
today
I'm
a
co-founder
and
product
and
chief
product
officer
of
reshuffle.com
reshuffle.com
is
an
open
source
platform
that
lets.
You
create
integrations
within
your
organizations
so
with.
B
If
you
want
to
connect
your
jira
with
your
git
with
your
sales
force
and
create
this
awesome
integration,
and
you
want
to
run
it
locally
and
you
want
to
use
open
source,
then
reshuffle
is
probably
the
right
solution
for
you.
I
started
about
20
years
ago.
In
microsoft,
I
worked
with
developers
on
windows
workflow.
I
worked
with
developers
on.net
when
java
people
still
said
net
not
yet
it
was.
It
was
a
great
experience.
My
job
was
to
work
with
startups
to
help
them
work
on
the
microsoft
platform.
B
So
I
was
a
developer
advocate.
Then
I
joined
google
at
google.
I
started
developer
relations
for
israel
and
then
grew
and
created
programs
such
as
the
startup
program
for
google,
and
also
the
developer
experts,
the
community
of
experts
that
go
and
speak
around
the
world.
The
ambassador
program
for
google.
B
I
also
created
campus
in
israel,
which
is
a
physical
space
where
developers
could
come
and
could
work
with
googlers.
It
was
a
lot
of
fun
and,
at
the
end
of
my
time,
google
I
manage
all
of
google's
scalable
developer
relations
programs,
some
of
which
I'm
going
to
talk
about
today,
so
google
developer
groups,
women
and
technology.
My
team
manage
the
startup
program
and
the
experts
program
and
also
the
isb
people
who
are
building
things
on
top
of
google
technologies
for
money.
B
Then
I
joined
slack.
I
joined
slack
when
we
were
about
90
people.
It
was
two
months
before
we
launched
the
the
platform
we
launched,
the
our
set
of
in
apis
and
marketplace,
and
we
had
50
developers
on
our
beta
and
we
had
80
people
in
the
company,
and
I
left
two
years
later,
when
we
had
about
1500
people
in
the
company
and
we
had
250
000
weekly,
active
developers
on
our
platform,
so
that
wasn't
a
crazy
expense
and
I'll
share
some
of
the
insights
here
with
you.
B
B
So
then
I
joined
amazon
to
be
the
viva
developer
platform
for
a
company
that
acquired
called
twitch
and
my
job
there
was
to
connect
between
twitch
and
and
game
developers,
so
ea
and
blizzard
and
riot
and
ubisoft
and
streamlabs
and
stream
elements
and
all
these
developers
that
are
building
on
the
twitch
platform.
It's
where
I
feel
like
kind
of
meta
that
we're
now
streaming
this
on
twitch,
it's
kind
of
fun
and
because
this
is
not
a
lot,
I
also
wrote
two
books.
B
B
Where
you
can
talk
to
your
software
or
text
your
software
instead
of
pressed
buttons
and
stuff
like
that,
okay
and
then
another
book
that
I
wrote
is
designing
together
with
two
engineers
from
slack,
is
designing
web
apis.
This
is
all
about
building
apis,
that
developers
love
and
we
talk
about
how
to
design
different
apis,
but
also
about
how
to
create
an
ecosystem
around
your
api.
B
So,
let's
start
with,
why
do
you
want
a
developer
community
and
I'm
going
to
be
controversial
here
and
say
you
probably
there's
a
very
high
percentage
that
you
that
you
don't
really
need
a
developer
community
and
if
you,
if
you
just
think
that
you
need
a
developer
community,
think
again
many
companies
think
that
they
need
a
community
at
all,
but
they
actually
need
a
different
go-to-market
or
a
different
type
of
engagement.
Building
a
community
is
expensive.
B
Building
community
requires
people,
especially
when
they're
developers
it
requires
people
who
are
developers
so,
for
example,
anyone
who
works
in
my
team
had
to
be
a
developer
itself,
meaning
they
would
be
an
expensive
person,
because
developers
are
kind
of
expensive
they're,
also
not
contributing
core
code
to
your
to
your
product,
and
if
they
do
it's
not
their
main
job.
So
that
means
that
they're
they
don't
give
you
the
return
that
developers
usually
make.
B
B
There
are
situations
where
a
developer
community
are
the
make
or
break
of
your
company
or
your
product,
and
and
once
you
realize
that
power
it
bring,
it
actually
becomes
a
core
tenant
of
your
company
in
a
core
tenant
of
your
product
to
have
an
ecosystem
of
developers.
On
top
of
that,
and
here's
three
examples
of
developer
communities
that
I
ran
into
the
first
one
is
developer
as
core
contributors.
B
These
are
people
who
are
actually
working
for
your
for
your
code,
especially
in
open
source.
This
is
pretty
common,
but
you
have
an
open
source
project
and
developers
are
actually
excited
and
want
to
contribute
code.
An
example
would
be
linux
here.
The
the
challenge
with
this
developer
community
is
all
about
governance.
B
B
I'm
not
gonna
talk
about
that,
but
if
you
want
please
reach
out
to
me
and
I'll,
I'm
I'll
be
happy
to
create
a
con.
A
presentation
about
managing
open
source
object,
governance
of
community,
I'm
gonna
focus
on
the
two.
Second
types
of
communities
developers
are
as
customers,
so
you
have
a
product
and
your
developers
are
actually
your
customers
they're
using
the
product
they
might
be
even
paying
for
the
product.
A
good
example
would
be
stripe
or
twilio,
where
you
actually
as
a
twilio
as
a
developer
using
twilio.
B
It's
really
easy
for
me
to
understand
that
I'm,
the
customer
and
I'm
actually
paying
for
api
calls
and
another
type
of
developer,
that
we're
going
to
cover
is
partner
ecosystem.
That
means
that
I
have
a
product
and
developers
come
and
build
on
my
platform
in
order
to
make
my
platform
better
in
order
for
them.
It's
order
to
be
successful
on
my
platform
and
for
me,
it's
owner
in
order
to
make
my
platform
better.
B
So
when
I
worked
at
android,
android
would
not
be
very
useful
if
we
didn't
have
a
developer
community
if
we
didn't
have
uber
and
spotify
and
all
the
awesome
and
games,
of
course,
and
all
the
awesome
I
play
hearthstone
every
day
and
that
that
is
the
core
of
my
my
phone,
because
I
love
playing.
So
you
have
something
like
a
platform
like
android
or
ios,
and
you
want
developers
to
build
on
top
of
that
platform
and
make
that
platform
much
more
valuable.
B
Then
then,
you
need
to
build
an
ecosystem
around
around
your
product.
At
slack,
we
had
a
very
similar
thing.
We
were
integrating
into
a
lot
of.
We
actually
started
with
auto
developer
relations.
We
were
we
built
our
first
64
integrations
ourselves,
and
then
we
found
out
that
it's
really
really
hard
and
customers
were
asking
for
so
many
other
integrations
into
so
many
other
tools.
B
Okay,
so
we
talked
about
why?
Why
should
you
do
develop
relations
or
developer
community?
Let's
talk
a
little
bit
about
the:
how?
How
would
you
go
about
and
create
a
developer
ecosystem,
so
this
is
basically
my
framework
for
thinking
about
engaging
with
developers.
You
need
to
inspire
them.
Inspire
them
is
teaching
them.
Why?
Why
should
they
use?
Why
should
they
care
about
your
other
platform
or
sdk
or
open
source
project?
Why
is
it
important
for
them?
B
That's
what
I
call
the
weapon
what's
in
it
for
me,
then-
and
you
do
that,
and
what
about
how
to
do
that?
You
do
that
by
doing
outreach
and
doing
a
lot
of
inspirational
content,
then
you
need
to
educate
about
educate
them
about
the,
how
how
should
they
build
and
and
what
should
they
build?
What
are
the
things
that
you
want
them
to
build?
A
lot
of
a
common
mistake
that
I
see
with
platforms.
B
Then
you
need
to
enable
them.
You
need
to
give
them
tools
and
services
to
be
successful.
Examples,
for
that
would
be
give
them
an
sdk
give
them
a
debugger
give
them
something
that
captures
logs,
give
them
an
ability
to
program
in
their
own
language.
These
are
all
capabilities
that
enable
developers
once
they
are
inspired
and
educated,
to
actually
develop
on
your
on
your
platform
or
use
your
sdk,
then
there's
the
most
important
part
in
this
model,
which
is
often
not
taking
into
account,
which
is
feedback.
B
I
think
this
is
the
most
important
part
of
developer
outreach
developers
are
awesome
because
they
tell
you
when
your
product
is
broken,
they're,
opinionated
and
they're
positive,
and
from
my
experience
they
tell
you
what
you
need
to
build
in
order
to
make
them
successful
capturing
that
feedback
and
feeding
it
back
to
product
is
the
most
important
thing
that
you
can
do,
because
that
is
a
collaborative
experience
that
you
could
do
with
your
community.
I'm
a
strong
believer
that
community
building
and
leadership
starts
with
participation.
B
B
This
is
another
way
to
look
at
at
the
developer
outreach
which
is
through
a
funnel
for
those
of
you
who
don't
know
what
a
funnel
is.
It's
a
it's
a
common
term
in
marketing,
where
you,
let's
say
you
land
on
amazon,
and
then
you
choose
a
shoe
and
then
you
choose
a
blue
shoe
and
a
running
shoe,
and
then
you
choose
your
size
and
then
you
click
and
put
your
credit
card
in,
and
then
you
buy
with
this
each
step
of
this.
This
process
less
and
less
people
go
through.
B
So
let's
say:
10
000
go
to
amazon
every
second
and
only
three
buy
every
second.
So
it
looks
like
a
funnel
from
a
process
perspective.
Another
way
of
looking
at
developer
ecosystems
is
through
a
developer
funnel,
so
how
many
developers
are
interested
in
your
product?
How
many
of
them
are
actually
building
on
your
api?
How
many
of
them
have
published
on
your
marketplace?
So
one
of
the
metrics
that
measured
ourselves
in
slack
is
how
many
published
apps
do
we
have
from
these
apps?
How
many
are
actually
being
used.
B
A
lot
of
people
publish
things,
but
nobody
uses
them.
I've
had
experiences
like
that,
both
in
twitch
and
in
slack
and
in
android
and
so
measuring
the
usage
and
usefulness
of
the
things
that
people
buy
and
build
on
your
platform
is
important
and,
last
but
not
least,
are
people
making
money.
That's
that's
an
interesting
mechanism
because
it
moves
people
from
I'm.
A
hobbyist
using
your
product
or
platform
to
this
is
my
business.
B
B
That,
for
me,
is
the
the
metric
for
interested
building.
Is
people
using
the
the
git
repository
for
reshuffle.com
publishing?
We
don't
have
that
metric,
but
we
have
like
people
who
engage
in
with
us
and
ask
for
a
demo,
then
usage
and
then
monetization.
So
you
need
to
write
a
metric
that
is
associated
with
each
step
of
the
funnel,
so
you
can
actually
measure
it
and
on
the
other
side
of
the
funnel,
you
need
to
write
the
activities
that
you
think
will
move
the
needle.
B
What
are
the
things
that
you
could
do
in
order
to
get
me
people
to
be
interested
in
the
product?
Speaking
in
events
is
one
writing.
Writing
articles
is
another
doing
an
ad
campaign.
It
could
be
another
one.
So
what
are
the
actions
that
you
can
take
in
order
to
move
developers
through
that
funnel
and
now
you
need
to
actually
take
those
actions
and
measure
the
impact
on
the
on
the
step.
So
I
run
a
a
google
campaign
or
a
facebook
campaign,
and
I
get
people
to
land
on
my
landing
page.
B
B
B
B
B
So
if
you
have
a
developer
landing
page
and
you
have
tutorials
there
and
you
have
javadoc,
for
example,
they
would
they
would
create
those
documentations
and
write
content
that
ins
that
inspire,
but
most
mostly
educate
and
enable
developers
to
use
your
platform.
So
that
is
breath
engagement
on
the
on
the
on
the
one
hand,
side.
On
the
other
hand,
side
you
have
the
depth
engagement.
This
is
the
one
to
few
or
one
to
one,
for
example,
partner
engineering,
sometimes
in
amazon
it
was
called
solution
engineer.
B
These
are
people
who
go
solution
architect.
Actually
these
are
people
who
go
and
work
with
top
partners
on
creating
amazing
engagements.
So,
for
example,
I
think
someone
in
this
channel
in
this
stream
is
called
john
again.
I
had
the
pleasure
of
working
with
him
and
he
managed
the
partner
partnership
engineering
at
slack,
and
his
job
was
to
work
with
companies
like
google,
like
salesforce,
like
small
startups,
that
were
that
shot
of
potential
and
create
amazing
integrations
between
those
companies
and
and
slack.
B
B
B
B
This
was
about
about
15
years
ago,
and
we
had
something
called
the
microsoft
roundtables
or
it
was
also
called
the
cto
roundtable
in
many
other
places.
This
was
a
community
engagement
that
was
high
touch,
meaning
that
we
actually
curated
the
people
that
came
to
the
community
we
selected
them.
You
had
to
pay
to
be
a
part
of
the
community,
it
was
fde
like
full-time
employee
manage
the
community.
They
were,
they
created
the
content,
they
gathered
the
people,
the
events
were
in
microsoft
offices
and
it
was
very
roi
driven.
B
What
we
did
is
we
collected
the
ctos
and
cios
of
the
companies
who
had
enterprise
agreements
who
were
paying
more
than
a
hundred
thousand
dollars
to
microsoft.
We
collected
them
together
and
created
a
community
out
of
them
and
we
gave
them
a
lot
of
high
quality
content
in
order
to
work
with
us
and
we.
B
What
we
saw
is
that
working
between
themselves
helped
us
a
lot
with
convincing
them
of
the
value
of
that
microsoft
brought
to
their
business
because
they
talked
to
each
other
and
they
talked
about
what
was
successful
and
what
was
not
successful,
and
that
provided
a
lot
of
value.
So
it
was
high
touch.
We
ran
this
all
over
europe
and
the
u.s
and
major
places
in
asia,
and
it
was
very,
very
successful
because
it
was
very
focused
on
high
quality,
high
touch
and
scalable.
It
was.
B
It
was
pretty
expensive
because
we
paid
for
everything
we
pre
we
paid
for
the
location
we
paid
for
the
content
we
paid
for
everything,
but
it
was
tied
into
roi.
You
couldn't
get
into
that
community.
If
you
didn't
pay
us,
so
we
saw
a
direct
correlation
between
causation
between
joining
the
community
and
being
a
paying
customer.
So
that
was
a
high
touch
high
quality,
scalable
and
expensive.
B
But
when
it
was
tied
into
monetization
it
was
the
roi.
The
return
on
investment
was
pretty
high.
Then
there
was
the
google
developer
group.
When
I
joined
it
was
already
very
successful
and
I
I
hope
I
helped
making
it
slightly
better.
It
was
a
great
success
and
it
still
is
a
great
success.
There
are
more
than
750
google
developer
groups
that
prior
to
corona,
met
in
person.
B
Now
I
guess
they're
meeting
online
every
month,
so
every
month,
people
volunteered
by
the
way
this
is
volunteer
led
people
met
each
other
for
free
to
talk
about
the
google
technologies
now
think
about
your
api
or
company.
Think
about
750
meetups
from
around
the
world
that
meet
on
a
monthly
basis
to
talk
about
your
api
or
platform.
B
Isn't
that
mind-blowing
and
it
was
led
by
volunteers
who
were
doing
that
for
free,
and
we
had
places
like
madagascar,
and
even
people
were
fighting
over
who's
gonna,
be
the
google
developer
lead
for
certain
hot
places,
so
it
was
super
active.
These
people
were
amazing.
They
every
time
we
released
a
new
api
or
a
new
version
of
android.
They
would
go
and
and
and
get
us
get
content
and
create
content
and
capture
speak,
get
speakers
to
speak
about
this
new
and
exciting
apis
or
our
platform.
So
it
was
a.
B
It
was
a
great
experience,
highly
scalable,
not
very
expensive,
so
we
had
about
five
people
managing
all
of
the
engagement
around
the
world.
We
still
sent
swag
and
we
had
it
was
still
expensive
in
terms
of
like
a
startup,
but
in
terms
of
the
previous
engagement
that
I
talked
to
in
microsoft,
this
was
peanuts
and
it
was
highly
scalable
and
we
were
very
happy
with
it.
We
didn't
tie
it
to
monetization,
because
android
is
free.
We
tied
it
more
towards
awareness
and
proficiency,
but
it
didn't
come
without
problems.
B
I
went
and
we
had
a
problem,
one
of
our
biggest
communities.
I
think
it
was
in
brazil
and
I
went
to
visit
there
and
I
came
in
and
there
were
a
lot
of
people
and
I
started
talking
to
them
to
see
hey.
What
are
you
developing
your
development,
an
android
or
a
chrome,
and
a
lot
of
them
were
saying?
No,
I'm
not
a
developer,
I'm
just
here,
because
I
love
google
and
there's
good
food
in
the
meetups
and
smart
people,
and
this
problem
is
what
I
call
cookie
eaters.
B
B
And
if
you
have
too
many
of
those
it
dilutes
your
community
so
because
developers
when
they
come
to
a
meet
up,
their
expectation
is
to
work
with
other
developers
and
if
they
meet
a
lot
of
other
people
who
are
not
developers,
for
example,
they're
all
in
marketing.
They
don't
really
want
to
to
be
in
that
meetup
anymore
and,
and
that
creates
satisfaction,
problems
and
also
content
becomes
pretty
watered
down,
because
people
don't
want
to
talk
about
hardcore
things.
A
B
Budget
for
community,
we
had
amazing
partner
engineers
and
we
had
amazing
content
creators
and
we
had
great
advocates
and
we
just
didn't-
have
the
budget
for
a
community.
My
budget
initially
first
year,
I
think,
was
about
five
thousand
dollars
for
everything
and
community
is
an
expensive
thing,
so
we
decided
to
instead
of
building
our
own
community,
we
decided
to
hack
into
other
communities.
B
B
That
sounds
like
a
great
idea
and
then
let's
go
and
talk
about
it
to
our
community
to
the
ibm
developer
community,
and
then
we
did
the
same
thing
with
with
google
and
with
amazon,
and
we
said
like-
and
these
are
all
third-party
images
of
them
engaging
with
the
community
on
top
of
the
slack
platform.
So
we
went
to
amazon
and
we
said:
hey,
you
want
to
promote
lambda.
B
We
want
to
promote
slack
integrations,
let's
talk
about
using
lamda,
to
build
slack
integrations
and
they
said
yeah.
That's
a
great
idea.
We
just
read
about
you
in
techcrunch
you're,
a
small
sexy
startup.
Let's
do
that
and
all
of
them
were
very
happy
to
give
us
access
to
their
community
because,
first
of
all
we
found
what's
in
it
for
them
and
a
good
value
proposition
for
the
partner.
B
But
you
need
to
have
a
buy-in
into
into
the
platform
you
either
need
to
be
sexy
or
very
valuable
or
the
new.
The
the
new
shiny
thing.
Usually
building
value
is
more
important
than
than
the
other
things,
and
if,
if
you
talk
to
a
community
leader
and
you
bring
value
to
their
community,
they
will
give
you
an
into
their
community,
because
that's
all
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
to
prove
to
provide
value
to
our
communities
and
use
partners
choose
wisely.
B
Make
sure
that
you
choose
the
right
partner
and
the
impact
that
we
saw
is
pure
integrations.
People
were
using
lambda
to
build
slack
bots
our
partners,
measured
that
as
well,
people
were
using
watson
to
build
building
stack,
bots
again,
integration,
measured
an
impact
which
brings
me
to
the
last
topic.
I'm
gonna
spend
like
two
minutes
talking
about
measuring
things
and
measuring
the
right
things,
because
one
of
the
key
problems
with
developer
relations
is
that
you
can
do
a
lot
of
activities
without
actually
moving
the
needle
or
moving
the
wrong
needle.
B
Let's
look
at
three
bad
examples
and
two
examples
that
I
think
make
more
sense.
So
the
first
one
is
on
the
bottom
end
is
developers
engaged,
sometimes
called
developers
touched,
so
how
many
developers?
How
many
eyeballs
did
you
capture?
How
many
people
did
you
touch?
Basically,
I
know
coved,
you
don't
touch
people,
especially
not
random
people,
but
this
was
a
measurement
that
we
used
at
google
and
also
at
microsoft.
So
how
many
people
did
I
talk
to?
B
I
think
this
is
not
a
very
good
type
of
metric,
because,
first
of
all,
you
can
have
a
bad
impression
on
the
person
that
you
touch.
You
can
talk
about
a
product
and
do
a
very
bad
job.
Very
poor
job
and
nobody
wants
to
use
the
product.
You
actually
talk
to
10
000
people,
but
nobody
cared.
Another
thing
is
that
it's
not
a
directly
valuable
thing
for
the
company,
even
if
developers
are
engaged
they
might
not
take
an
action
that
is
important
to
the
company,
then
there's
developer
registered.
B
I
don't
like
developer
register
because
I
think
that
you
can
move
people
to
to
do
to
register
just
by
doing
good
hacking
of
like
facebook
and
google
and
a
good
landing
page,
you
would
get
people
to
register,
but
that's
the
last
activity
that
they
will
do,
especially
if,
like
if
you're
great
in
marketing
and
ui
you
can,
you
can
get
people
to
do
the
registration,
but
actually
usage
is
much
harder.
The
last
one
that
I
don't
really
like
is
revenue
to
the
company.
I
think
it's
indirect.
B
It's
also
screws
up
incentives
and
I'll
give
you
an
example.
I
I
was
working
at
microsoft
as
a
developer
advocate,
and
then
there
was
a
debate
about
whether
developer
advocate
should
have
quotas,
and
I
was
really
against
that,
because
I
felt
that
that
will
turn
me
into
a
salesperson
the
minute
I
have
a
quota.
I
would
start
stop
thinking
about.
B
What's
good
for
the
developer
and
what's
good
for
the
ecosystem
with
my
community,
and
I
would
start
thinking
about
how
can
I
get
people
to
pay
and
that's
a
very
different
way
of
thinking
than
develop
relations?
Develop
relations
need
to
be
advocates.
They
need
to
be
bi-directional
tool
that
helps
the
company
engage
with
developers
and
help
developers
engage
with
the
company,
definitely
not
sales.
In
my
opinion,
now
the
top
two
are
kind
of
important.
The
first
one
is
a
week.
B
The
number
of
developers
with
weekly
active
tokens
means
that
a
developer
has
built
something
on
the
slack
platform.
Has
that
platform
that
a
token
is
now
being
used
on
a
weekly
basis,
so
that
means
that
they
actually
went
through
the
funnel
of
being
inspired,
educated,
hopefully
gave
feedback
they're,
definitely
enabled
because
they're
they're
using
a
token
they're
using
the
api
and
that
api
is
using,
is
used
on
the
on
a
weekly
basis.
That
means
that
they
built
the
entire
value
flow
for
the
customers.
The
last
one.
B
The
second
last
one
is
how
many
people
what's
the
correlation.
This
was
just
like.
In
slack,
we
saw
a
very
strong
correlation,
so
about
97
of
our
paying.
Customers
were
using
the
platform,
and
we
talked
about
that
at
a
time
even
publicly,
and
that
was
very
important
to
us,
because
we
wanted
to
make
sure
that
our
customers
are
paying.
Customers
are
still
using
the
platform
on
an
ongoing
basis
or
continuing
to
give
them
value.
B
Okay,
lessons
learned
work
on
both
breadth
and
depth,
like
I
showed
you
focus
on
high
value
developers
and
partners,
measure
and
align.
The
right
thing
advocate
so
be
bi-directional,
rather
than
be
an
evangelist,
rather
than
like
saying,
hey
praise
the
lord
here's,
our
api
say:
here's
our
api.
If
it's
broken
we're
going
to
work
with
you
to
make
it
better,
we
can.
B
We
can
talk
a
little
bit
later
about
like
where
in
the
org
but
like
if
you're
part
of
engineering
or
product,
that's
amazing
make
sure
that
you,
the
the
money
to
your
to
your
organization,
comes
specifically
for
developer
engagement
rather
than
like
sales,
for
example,
and
always
always
always
think
about.
What's
in
it
for
me
for
the
developer,
why
should
they
use
the
platform?
What
is
the
value
of
the
platform?
B
Okay
last
thing,
which
is
super
meta,
is
if
you
want
to
experiment
with
developer
outreach,
I
highly
recommend
doing
streaming,
which
is
basically
what
we're
doing
now,
which
is
super
meta.
One
of
my
friends,
romaine
from
from
stripe,
did
a
set
of
very
successful
striped
sessions.
Engaging
with
developers
on
on
twitch
visual
studio
does
the
same.
They
have
a
channel
that
is
pretty
popular
teaching
developers.
B
A
B
A
Know
I
think
everyone
will
enjoy
the
commute.
The
the
information.
One
thing
we
should
say
is
in
the
q
a
if
we
don't
hit
something
now
and
if
you're
watching
this
later,
please
still
drop
questions
in
there.
We
will
be
looking
at
the
discussion
thread
throughout
time
and
if
you
have
something
that's
a
very
easy
way
to
get
in
touch
with
amir
or
myself
or
anybody
else,
and
we
could
always
go
back
and
forth
on
there.
B
A
You
obviously
have
a
ton
of
experience
you
share
and
I
love
the
stories
too,
particularly
the
cookie
eater,
one
that
those
are
always
fun
to
talk
about,
though
it's
true,
but
let's
get
into
a
couple
of
questions
here:
real
quickly
about
some
of
the
things
that
you
you've
experienced
and
seen
over
the
years.
So
let's
talk
about
a
time
or
a
place
where
deveral
doesn't
just
doesn't
work.
B
B
If
you're
saying
hey,
I'm
going
to
build
an
ecosystem,
but
my
product
is
not
that
useful,
then
I
think
you
don't
get
a
lot
of
value
and
you
hit
the
wall
really
really
fast.
You
try
to
engage
with
developers,
they
they
are
friendly
because
they're
friendly
beings
and
but
then
they
walk
away
because
they
don't
care
or
you're
not
giving
them
a
lot
of
value.
So
a
big
mistake
that
I
see
a
lot
of
startups
is
trying
to
build
a
community
because
before
they
reach
the
product
marketplace
actually
develop.
A
B
Anti-Patterns
turning
devrel
into
sales,
if,
if
you're
devrel
are
trying,
so
so
here's
a
here's,
the
thing
with
developers
and
I'm
a
developer.
So
I
can.
I
can
say
that
if
we
we
really
loved
talking
to
other
developers,
we
are
okay,
talking
to
developer
relations,
people,
we
kind
of
shy
away
from
marketing
people
and
we
run
away
screaming
when
there's
a
sales
person
in
the
room
and-
and
that's
that's-
that
that
is
common.
I've
talked
to
many
many
developers
and
got
that.
B
If
your
developer
relations
is
a
salesperson,
then
they
won't
have
a
lot
of
success.
A
second
anti-patent,
which
is
very
common,
is
not
having
developer
empathy.
One
thing
that
I
did
when
I
did
when
I
interviewed
people
from
my
organization
is,
I
asked
them.
Where
is
the
platform?
Broken
use
the
platform
and
tell
me
where
it's
broken
and
if
they
told
me
hey,
everything
is
amazing.
Everything
is
okay.
B
We
love
to
check
our
each
other's
pr's.
We
love
to
give
feedback
to
code.
This
is
part
of
our
being.
If
we
say
hey,
everything
is
great
with
with
with
something,
then
we
probably
don't
have
a
lot
of
developer
empathy
so
making
make
sure
that
you
have
people
in
your
organization
that
know
all
the
all
the
bad
points,
all
the
frictions
and
have
enough
developer,
empathy
and
understand,
what's
good
for
and
what's
what
motivates
your
developers
so
not
having
developer
empathy
and
selling
crap.
A
That's
one
of
the
anti-patterns
that
I
see
all
the
time
is
that
selling
one
it's
I
don't
know
where
it
comes
from.
Obviously
you
can
come
from
a
variety
of
different
places,
but
if
you're
going
to
sell
to
me
the
cio
or
the
cto
of
an
organization,
that's
one
thing
but
don't
sell
to
the
developers
and
interesting
you
know
2020
world.
A
A
A
How
do
you
want
to
start
out,
but
then
go
back
to
the
first
question,
which
is
pre-product
market
fit,
because
what,
if
you're
a
startup
that
wants
that
developer
community
or
thinks
the
developer
community
is
actually
critical
to
long-term?
How
do
you
thread
the
needle?
When
might
you
know
you
need
that
first
everl
person
with
maybe
pre-product
market
fit
or
just
close
to
it
like?
How
do
you
think
about
the
whole
thing
there.
B
Yeah,
so
I
think
at
the
beginning
and
that's
critical
stage
that
my
startup
is
right
now
is
figuring
out
product
market
fit
in
terms
of
like
getting
a
lot
of
feedback.
So
there's
two
roles
for
that:
first
developer
advocate
the
first
thing
that
they
need
to
do
is
build
the
table
stakes
things
all
the
basic
things
that
you
need
as
a
developer
in
order
to
land
and
understand
and
be
successful
on
the
platform
and
the
way
to
measure.
It
is
called
five
minutes
to
hello
world,
and
you
should
probably
read
about
that.
B
It's
a
it's
a
great
metaphor
and
thinking
about,
like
I
land
on
a
landing
page
for
an
api.
How
fast
can
I
from
landing
on
that
landing
page,
actually
use
that
api
or
platform
successfully?
How?
How
fast
can
I
write
in
a
low
world
on
android,
for
example?
How
fast
can
I
use
a
github
api
and
be
successful
with
it?
So
if,
if
the
time
is
five
minutes,
that's
amazing.
If
the
time
is
five
days,
that's
horrible
and
no
developers
will
probably
spend
any
time
if
it's
somewhere
in
the
middle.
B
It's
something
that
you
should
probably
try
to
make
better
as
time
pass,
so
the
job
the
person,
the
first
person,
is
to
build
the
table
stakes
for
the
developer,
to
be
able
to
land
on
a
certain
destination,
understand
the
value
proposition
and
then
go
through
a
set
of
steps,
hopefully
short
setup
step
in
order
to
be
successful
so
that
that
is
the
one
job
of
that
developer
person.
The
second
one
is
capturing
feedback.
So
what
what
we
do?
That's
like,
for
example,
is
every
every
thursday
we
bought
pizzas.
B
I
used
my
five
thousand
dollars
budget
for
that.
We
bought
pizzas
and
we
got
developers
to
come
and
speak
about
their
experience
on
the
slack
platform.
So
that
creates
a
lot
of
empathy
and
understanding
within
the
product
group
about
how
and
what
is
missing
in
the
in
the
platform,
and
we
did
a
lot
of
user
research.
We
interviewed
developers,
we
brought
developers
to
speak
with
the
pro
with
the
pms,
so
that's
the
two
things
make
sure
that,
as
as
you
continue,
you
get
developers
to
try.
B
A
I
love
the
point
about
empathy
through
and
through.
I
talk
about
this
quite
a
bit
publicly,
which
is
obviously
developer
empathy
and
having
an
understanding
for
that,
and
I
talk
about
pre-obvious
and
post
obvious
startups.
You
know,
there's
a
pre-obvious
phase
to
you
in
a
post-obvious
phase
to
you,
but
more
than
that
when
it
comes
to
the
developer.
Empathy
side
of
this
is
the
zero
to
one
one
to
two
moment,
and
I
think
we
as
a
world
still
get
this
wrong
with
developers.
A
We
don't
have
the
best
tools
for
developers,
and
I
I
like
to
begrudgingly
joke
about
this,
because
I
I
can
still
feel
like,
even
if
I'm
at
github
and
microsoft,
I'm
punching
up
to
amazon
or
your
old
employer,
google,
but
developer
empathy.
It
feels
like
in
the
developer
tools
approach
at
some
of
those
larger
companies.
A
B
I
totally
agree,
and
by
the
way
we
all
suffer
from
that
when
I
was
at
google,
we
we
had
like
a
landing
page
for
for
developers
and
we
actually
had
developers
come
and
go
through
the
flow,
and
we
had.
We
watched
them
in
a
lab
and
it
was
shocking.
The
experience
like
what
we
thought
was
trivial
was
not
trivial.
So
even
if
you're
an
enterprise-
and
you
think
that
you
have
a
great
developer
platform
experience,
always
bring
developers
and
grow.
Your
empathy
as
time
passes
awesome.
A
We
have
a
couple
of
questions
around
a
topic
around
live
streaming
and
I'm
not
sure
exactly
the
the
intent
behind
this,
but
we
have
one
in
the
the
discussions
group
and
one
in
the
chat.
So
for
folks
who
are
writing
yours
in
the
chat
feel
free
to
go
drop
it
in
the
discussions
for
more
so
we
can
have
an
active
live
conversation
after
the
stream
as
well,
but
I'm
gonna
read
the
question.
I
think
you
can
read
it
to
me
here
in
the
comments,
but
there's
quite
a
bit
around
stream
of
execution.
A
What,
if
you're,
trying
to
learn
from
content
creator
streamers?
Do
you
see
as
a
compelling
developer
relations
content
specific
to
the
live
stream
format?
That's
that's
interesting.
There's
a
lot
of
content
creators
out
there
there's
a
lot
of
content
creation
platforms.
You've
got
all
the
content
creators
out
there.
A
B
So
I
think
that
live
streaming
taps
into
the
hero
theme.
Twilio
did
this
very
well
in
the
early
days
they
had
like
the
php
and
they
caught.
I
think
they
called
ambassadors,
but
they
had
developer
advocates
who
were
amazing
and
specific
verticals.
They
were
amazing
in
python.
They
were
amazing
in
php.
They
were
amazing
in
java
they
were
amazing
in
microservices,
and
these
were
like
the
heroes
of
that
third-party
community.
So
a
live
stream
is
all
about
a
certain
person
sitting
and
being
the
hero
and
and
hail
helping
a
community.
B
B
So
if
you
turn
or
developer
advocates
into
heroes
into
lives,
people
who
do
live
streaming
on
an
ongoing
basis
and
foster
and
care
about
the
community
live
streaming
is
a
great
way
of
engaging
because
it
creates
a
few
things.
It
creates
immediacy.
So
you
can
actually
ask
questions,
so
I'm
I'm
playing
with
visual
studio
or
something
like
that,
and
then
somebody
say:
hey
you
use
the
shortcut.
B
What
did
you
use-
and
I
say:
hey
it's
control
for
something
right,
f
and,
and
it
there's
an
immediacy
there's
also
like
the
the
a
moment
in
time-
and
I
remember
that
with
my
kid
with
ninja
the
first
time
my
kid
contributed
to
ninja
like
send
them
bits
and
and
ninja
said,
hey.
Thank
you
johnny.
My
kid
was
like
boom.
B
He
said
johnny,
I'm
a
hero
now
so
like
finding
people
in
your
community
and
making
them
the
hero
for
the
moment
is
a
great
way
so
like
having
guests
in
your
stream
is
another
great
way
to
engage
with
your
community.
So
what
I
think
my
general
perspective
on
this
is
look
at
the
medium
look
at
who's
very
successful
on
this
medium
and
then
of
live
streaming,
look
at
how
they
engage,
how
they
interact
with
their
community
and
then
extrapolate
that
on
developer
outreach,
and
I
think
it's
the
same
thing.
B
A
Think
that's
fascinating
because
if
you
actually
extract
what's
happening
in
a
lot
of
other
creator,
content
vertical
markets
to
the
developer
specific
function,
if
you
look
at
tik,
tok
or
instagram,
the
sub
stack
type
of
things
that
are
happening.
That
is
exactly
what
you
described
there.
That's
going
on
those
those
different
areas.
This
is
applied
to
the
developer.
A
B
A
But
it's
like
you
kind
of
like
blew
my
mind
for
a
second,
because
we
they're
all
people
at
the
end
of
the
day,
well
how
we
engage
with
each
other,
particularly
obviously
in
covet,
but
in
the
general
world
too.
You
know
we
can
learn
from
the
different
verticals
like
what
is
happening
with
all
the
podcasts
at
the
moment
and
is
trying
to
do
is
create
heroes
out
of
certain
celebrity
personas
that
they
go
out,
and
you
know
you
that
way:
that's
fascinating,
okay!
Yeah!
Now
you
gave
me
homework
to
go.
A
Make
sure
that
I
fully
understand
what's
happening
over
here
and
then
I
can
bring
it
back
to
the
developer
world
too.
So,
thank
you.
That's
awesome!
I'm
here!
I
cannot
thank
you
enough
for
coming
on
and
having
spending
an
hour
or
so
with
us
here
today.
This
has
been
wonderful,
so
this
just
sincerely.
Thank
you
so
much.
I
think,
thank
you.
I
learned
more
than
I
expected
to,
and
that's
always
fun
and
amazing
awesome
perspective.