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From YouTube: InVision's Mark Frein & GitLab CEO Sid Sijbrandij discuss the future of all-remote companies
Description
GitLab CEO Sid Sijbrandij and Mark Frein of InVision talk about why all-remote is the future, and moving beyond 'But how do you know they're working?'
A
B
To
so
I'm
mark
Fran
I
am
the
chief
people
officer
at
envision.
If
you
don't
know
about
envision,
we
are
the
digital
product
design
platform
that
is
behind
the
world's
best
user
experiences.
We
power
the
design
of
other
companies
application
development
worldwide,
but
I'm
here,
I
always
like
to
do
this
for
a
remote
I
am
here
in
my
home
and
I
study
in
Austin
Texas,
where
it's
a
lovely,
not
too
hot
day-to-day
about
80,
mid,
80s
and
really
happy
to
be
here.
Thank
you
for
asking
me
yeah.
A
B
That's
a
great
question-
and
you
know
my
caveat
was
with
a
lot
of
these
questions
about
remote,
which
I'd
like
to
say
whenever
I
have
a
conversation
about,
it
is
I.
Think
we're
just
at
the
beginning
of
this
movement
and
a
lot
of
the
answers
are
what's
what's
worked
or
been
hacked
together
so
far,
so
just
because
things
seem
to
be
working
early
and
like,
let's
say
the
history
of
remote,
which
I
imagine
is
going
to
last.
The
rest
of
you
know
the
work,
the
work
history
of
you
know
the
human
species
I.
A
B
We're
distant,
it's
very
infancy,
so
now,
what's
driving
it
now
that
it's
at
it's
very
beginning,
I
think
what's
driving
it
now
is
we're
becoming
more
and
more
used
to
using
technology
to
mediate.
Our
relationships
and
the
technology
has
caught
up
with
our
capacity
to
do
those
things.
So
when
I
think
about
remote
work,
I
think
about
experiences
that
I've
had
myself
over
the
years
going
back,
say:
10,
15
years,
I
think
about
joining
early
World
of
Warcraft
online.
B
It's
certainly
not
as
we're
thinking
about
now,
but
it
was
certainly
play
in
a
very
serious
way
that
was
remote
and
we
began
conditioning
ourselves
for
these
experiences
over
the
last
decade.
So
as
as
technology
like
what
we're
on
right
now,
like
zoom,
has
caught
up
with
the
capacity
for
people
to
work.
This
way,
I
think
it's
it's
unlocking
things
that
we
didn't
think
of
before.
So
it's
almost
as
if
we
needed
some
of
the
technologies
to
get
into
place,
which
is
often
the
case
with
technology
revolutions
we
needed
zoom,
we
needed
slack.
B
You
know
other
technologies
to
give
us
the
ability
to
do
these
things,
but
the
conditioning
has
been
going
for
maybe
at
least
a
decade,
if
not
more
around,
not
having
to
be
present
to
collaborate
effectively,
but
I
think
we
have
a
lot
more
work
to
do.
That's
kind
of
the
this
is
called
the
human
experience
side.
I.
B
Think
the
economic
side
is
just
that
talent
centers,
especially
in
technology,
are
hyper
competitive
as
I
think
we
both
know
and
being
able
to
get
out
of
those
centers
to
go
and
find
great
talent
for
a
growing
technology
company.
This
gives
you
so
much
more
reach
and
capacity
to
grow
and
scale
up
a
company
of
the
kind
that
get
lab
is,
and
the
kind
of
vision
is.
B
Wow,
you
know
if,
if
there
was
a
single
killer,
question
or
precise
question
to
test
for
this
I
think
it'd
be
a
lot
easier,
but
I
I
think
of
it
as
a
constellation
of
things,
because
there's
not
a
cookie
cutter,
great
remote
worker
just
because
the
same
way,
there's
not
a
cookie
cutter,
great
in-person
worker
I
think
it's
a
it's
a
set
of
capabilities.
That
is
the
same
as
any
kind
of
no
candidacy,
but
maybe
just
a
little
bit
through
a
different
filter.
B
You
know.
Obviously,
people
have
to
be
comfortable
with
the
technology
platforms
that
we
use
and
there's
a
there's
a
steep
learning
curve,
if
they're
completely
uncomfortable
with
those
technology
platforms
that
they
haven't
worked
fully
remote
I,
don't
think,
is
as
big
of
an
issue
as
if
they've,
never
gotten
comfortable.
Having
dialogues
or
real
meetings
mediated
by
video
technology,
for
example,
then
the
learning
curve
sim
seems
to
be
much
higher.
B
The
other
thing
we
look
for
at
least
for
us,
which
is
partly
about
envisions
value
system,
is
the
interest
and
willingness
to
to
really
show
up
relationally
with
other
people
at
work
and
what
I
mean
by
that
is
we
we
look
for
people
that
have
humility
about
what
they
what
they
can
accomplish,
and
people
have
a
high
degree
of
customer
empathy
as
a
company,
that's
informed
by
design
in
digital
product
design.
We
talk
and
think
a
lot
about
the
importance
of
empathizing
with
the
customer.
B
That
also
applies
to
empathizing
with
each
other,
especially
when
it
comes
to
collaboration,
if
I
can't
listen,
which
is
part
of
humility
and
if
I
can't
really
reach
across
the
digital
divide
and
connect.
Relationally
I
can't
really
collaborate.
So
we
look
for
those
characteristics,
partly
because
it's
harder
it's
harder
to
develop
great
relationships.
Remote,
though
not
impossible,
it
can
happen
all
the
time
it
just
takes
more
work.
B
A
B
Rather
than
welcoming
people
after
they
drive
up
and
come
in
the
office
for
the
first
time,
I'm
getting
on
with
whatever
20
new
hires
on
a
Monday
and
saying
hi
and
I'm,
looking
at
all
their
billboard
faces
on
I'm,
zooming
and
I'm,
saying
hello,
and
even
though
it's
very
separate
the
no
way
like
it's
not
intimate
that
I'm,
not
there
with
them
I'm,
actually
in
most
of
their
homes
and
I.
Note
that
at
the
beginning,
I
say
hey.
B
How
often
do
you
invite
people
into
your
home
on
day,
one
when
you're
starting
a
new
job
and
appropriate
laughs
and
chuckles?
And
it's
like?
Well,
you
know
it
is
funny,
but
think
about
that,
like
you,
we
are
already
inside.
You
know
your
most
personal
space
and
week
like
we
can
see
your
bookcase.
We
can
see
things
that
are
important
to
you.
We
can
see
your
cat
jumping
on
your
lap,
because
we
all
know
that
the
animals
know
exactly
when
you're
on
a
really
important
call.
B
They
come
to
make
sure
that
they're
also
on
that
call
it's
almost
as
if
we
have
the
opportunity
when
remote
to
be
more
personal
more
quickly.
As
long
as
we
allow
that
to
happen,
so
I
encourage
people
here,
make
yourself
available,
make
yourself
vulnerable.
Let's
get
to
know
your
pet.
Let's
get
to
know
your
family
if
they're,
in
the
background
with
you,
if
you're,
if
you
have
a
family,
but
let's
be
in
our
lives
more
quickly,
then
usually
we
even
let
ourselves
be
when
we're
not
working
remote.
B
It's
simply
that
it's
harder
and
I
mean
harder
to
to
be
a
great
leader,
because
we
don't
have
the
same
serendipitous
occasions
that
we
have
when
we're
walking
down
the
corridor
and
particularly
I
believe
that
leaders,
leaders,
who
are
capable
of
humanizing
themselves
of
making
themselves
being
vulnerable
and
allowing
people
to
see
that
they're,
you
know
they're
fallible,
they
make
mistakes
they're,
who
they
are
show
up
much
stronger
as
leaders
the
problem
in
a
remote
environment.
Is
you
don't
see
those
moments?
B
You
don't
have
those
those
little
it
exchanges
with
your
leaders
that
you
do
when
you're
in
person,
so
I
think
leaders
for
remote
need
to
be
more
conscious
of
what
they're
doing
as
a
leader,
which
typically
means
they
have
to
be
more
purposeful
and
developed.
So
I
think
it's
just
a
higher
bar
in
some
ways,
especially
for
communication
and
especially
especially
for
the
capacity
to
emotionally
engage
with
the
people
that
they
lead,
and
that
doesn't
mean
they
have
to
be
extroverts.
It
just
means
that
they
have
to
be
very
intentional
about
connect
about
connecting
connections.
B
It
probably
depends
on
the
person
and
I
bet
in
another
10
years.
That's
gonna.
The
answer
is
gonna,
be
very
different
to
that
question,
because
there'll
be
people
who
never
work
anything
other
than
remote,
I'm
sure
you
know
at
gate,
lab
you've
seen
the
same
thing
or
had
the
same
conversations
where
people
looking
in
from
the
outside
sort
of
are
incredulous
and
say
I've
said
or
whoever
you
know.
How
do
you
make
it
work?
B
You
know
or
isn't
that
weird
or
you
know
how
do
you
make
sure
that
people
are
doing
their
job,
which
I
kind
of
view
as
as
as
all
old,
workplace,
old
economy
question
frame
sets?
You
know
those
those
are
usually
the
least
interesting
questions
in
a
way.
At
least
you
know,
for
my
experience,
I
think
in
a
decade
people
are
gonna,
be
you
know?
B
How
do
you
make
going
into
an
office
work
it
and
so
I
think
it's
gonna,
be
it's
gonna
be
changed
for
some
demographics
I
think
right
now,
we're
still
in
the
mix
of
the
change.
I
think
you
can
for
people
for
whom
this
works.
It
works
really
well,
and
you
see
people
increasingly
being
like
I,
wouldn't
ever
go
back
to
a
in
person
workplace,
but
for
people
for
whom
it
doesn't
work,
and
there
are
a
lot
of
those
too.
It
really
doesn't
work
well
at
all,
either
so
I
wouldn't
say
it's
harder
or
easier.
A
A
Status
updates,
you
have
look,
we
do
the
same
things
we
just
do
to
promote
like
how
do
you
limit
your
hiring
you're
saying
people
are
the
most
important
if
you
limit
your
hiring
to
1%
of
the
world
population
and
then
the
people
that
are
the
most
important
you
make
them
commute
2
days
of
every
day.
How
do
you
make
that
work?
How
do
you
make
that
work?
How
can
that
be
compatible
with
your
values?.
B
And
I
love
and
I
love
the.
How
do
you
make
sure
everybody's
working
and
I'd
like
the
same
thing?
I'd
say
how
do
you
I
mean
last
time
I
was
in
a
physical
office
space
I
I
could
walk
by
and
see
that
at
least
a
third
of
the
people
work
on
tasks
when
I
walk
by
right?
Yes,
so
it's
that's
a
that's
a
doozy
yeah.
A
Wow
so
you're
in
the
building
these
were,
you
must
be
working,
be
working
and
being
useful,
even
in
like
an
Amazon
shipping
center,
which
is
like
very,
very
easy
to
see
whether
someone
is
working
or
not,
they
measure
it.
They
measure
the
output
they're
not
like.
Oh
you
showed
up
here
and
you're
running
around
you're,
probably
doing
your
job.
We
just
visit
the
output.
That's
right!
That's.
B
Hope
so,
like
I'd
like
to
think
so,
I
don't
have
the
evidence
to
back
it
up.
You
might
I
read
that
read
the
piece
it
well
that
it
was
in
The,
Wall,
Street,
Journal,
recently
well,
Street,
Journal,
I,
think
or
Forbes
I
can't
remember
which,
but
there
was
a
great
piece
that
you
had
talked
a
little
bit
about
this
and
I
think
I.
Think
there's
the
potential
for
it
to
have
a
lot
of
social,
good
and,
and
ultimately
that
should
be
measurable.
I
would
add.
B
One
thing
that
I
for
sure
do
know
is
it's
allowed
for
people
to
make
lifestyle
choices
that
completely
change
their
life
and
make
them
let
them
live
their
work
life
in
a
way,
that's
much
much
much
better
than
they
would
if
they
didn't
have
that
option.
So
I
think
of
people
who
I
think
of
one
person
on
my
team
that
envision
who
started
in
the
city
center
when
she
started
with
us
and
six
months
later,
had
moved
with
her
family
to
a
cottage
on
the
Atlantic
Ocean.
B
You
know
in
a
close-knit
community
and
you
can
just
like
you
can
hear
it.
You
know
you
can
see
the
light
is
different,
the
she's
a
happier
person
because
of
the
choice
that
we
were
able
to
help
her
with
when
it
comes
to
where
she
happens,
to
live
so
I,
don't
mean
long
term.
I
hope
that
there's
more
general
economic
positivity
about
a
short
term.
What
I
know
from
knowing
the
individual
cases
is
it's
it's
made
people's
lives
a
lot
better
in
certain
senses.
B
A
Well
say:
mckillop,
some
wonderful
stories
about
people,
traveling
traveling,
the
US
by
RV
living
in
New
Zealand,
where
the
only
grip
they're
on
is
the
internet,
but
also
much
more
mundane.
Just
move
out
of
the
city
and
move
much
further,
just
an
hour's
drive
and
get
a
lot
of
benefits
from
that
with.
B
More
square
footage
and
and
green
space
and
yeah
so
I
mean
I,
would
just
one
you
know
more
thought
on
that
which
is
just
more
the
I
guess.
The
the
science
fiction
guy
and
me
I
I,
hope
that
it
allows
for
a
redistribution
of
population.
You
know
in
a
way
that
benefits
benefits
the
world
and
benefits.
You
know
the
country,
I,
don't
know
if
that
will
be
true,
but.
B
A
B
Like
to
think
so,
and
and
not
even
not
even
thinking
necessarily
outside
the
United
States
but
just
areas,
areas,
the
United
States
itself
that
do
have
not
traditionally
had
access
to
the
kinds
of
roles
that
we
have
in
our
two
companies,
I
think
it'll.
I.
Think
we
will
also
ultimately
have
to
ask
ourselves
how
we're
helping
train
and
equip
people
in
those
areas
with
the
skills
that
they
need
to
have
roles
in
our
companies.
But
I
view
that
as
a
great
opportunity
rather
than
a
barrier.
A
B
A
B
A
There's
a
lot
of
smart
economists
and
they
looked
at
what,
if
everyone
could
migrate
to,
who
wants
to
migrate,
can
migrate
and
they're
they're,
pretty
aligned
that
that
could
double
the
income
of
the
world
I
think
what
remote
is
allowing
you
to
do
is
to
do
that
migration
without
physically
moving
so
laying
down
its
borders.
That's.
B
B
With
a
lot
of
help
and
a
lot
of
effort,
and
particularly
the
dedication
and
choice,
I
think
the
answer
is
yes:
I
am
still
very
much
a
skeptic
around
an
organization
that
culturally
is
anchored
in
in
physicality
bolting
on
remote
capability.
I
have
not
seen
that
work,
it
doesn't
mean
it
hasn't
and
I
obviously
haven't
seen
every
organization
out
there,
but
there
still
are,
in
those
cases
real
stretches
of
culture
and
behaviors.
When
it
comes
to
haves
and
have-nots.
You
know
people
who
are
in
the
center
right.
B
For
me,
it's
almost
a
matter
of
where
does
the
organization
consider
its
centers
and
centers
of
power
and
if
those
are
still
physical,
everybody
knows
that
what
I
think
I'm
sure
this
is
the
case.
You
know
it's
good
lab.
It's
certainly
the
case
with
us
there
when
there's
no
center,
there's
no
center
of
power,
but
as
soon
as
you
say,
there's
the
center.
Everybody
knows
there's
a
center
of
power.
I.
A
Actually
have
a
a
telepresence
robot
called
be
me
in
my
living
room,
so
everyone
in
the
office
during
working
hours
can
drive
in
and
see
what's
happening
and
to
check.
That
is
really
only
the
two
CEO
shadows
sitting
there
and
nobody
else,
there's
not
some
secret
meeting.
It
is
a
git
lab
that
are
working
from
some
bunker
and
mike
is
high
above
ground,
but.
B
B
B
A
B
Is
now
moving
some
of
its
sales
and
marketing
to
the
u.s.
to
New,
York,
New,
York
area
and
I
think
with
a
lot
of
diligence
and
intentionality,
they
can
make
it
very
successful
sort
of
functional
hub
model
as
long
as
they
build
in
really
smart
remote
practices
from
the
beginning.
But
it's
still
about
to
me
it's
about
disrupting
this
feeling
that
there's
some
physical
center,
that
is
the
most
important
place
and
as
long
as
they
do
that
successfully
I
think
it'll
be
it'll,
be
wonderful.
A
B
B
A
B
So
the
other
screens
are
like
calling
to
me,
you
know
and
there's
that
constant
draw
of
my
attention
for
me,
it
starts
with
you
know,
give
the
same
respect
for
the
conversation
and
the
person
you're
having
a
conversation
with
that
you
would
give
if
you
were
sitting
together.
You
know
live
you
know
it
would
be.
B
You
know,
wouldn't
it
be
odd
and
rude
if
you
just
popped
open
your
phone
and
started,
you
know
tapping
at
your
phone
while
you
were
attempting
to
pay
attention
that
person
if
it's
meant
to
be
a
conversation,
give
that
person
your
focus.
So
you
know
the
the
nuggets
that
I
think
are
most
important,
actually
aren't
just
about
being
remote
they're
about
having
good
relationships
and
good
conversations
period.
A
With
us,
there
are
I
think
it's
mix.
Some
things
are
the
same
as
in
homo
conversations.
Don't
over
talk
like
very
important.
It's
we're
in
this
meeting
a
synchronous.
So,
if
I
want
you
to
tell
more
I
can
ask
you:
I
am
an
adult.
You
don't
have
to
go.
Give
a
10-minute
answer
just
give
two
two-minute
answers.
Just
I'll
ask
for
more.
If
I
want
to
know
more
I'll
feel
comfortable
with
that.
A
Some
of
the
things
are
quite
counterintuitive.
For
example,
we
encourage
people
to
interrupt
each
other.
That
is
a
thing
that
happens
very
naturally,
when
you're
in
a
meeting
room,
because
you
can
you
can
hear
if
someone
said
you
know,
they're
gonna,
speak
and
people
will
just
stop
talking
and
it's
it's
you're
unlikely
to
talk
less
likely
to
talk
over
each
other,
because
you
have
much
much
higher
fidelity
sense
of
someone's
going
to
say
something
that
is
missing
like
remote
and
they're.
A
There,
therefore,
some
interaction
that
is
there
in
person
is
missing
and
we
compensate,
but
it's
okay
to
interrupt
each
other
that
happens
in
meetings
in
a
more
natural
way.
It's
we
accept
a
non-natural
as
long
as
it's
like
yeah,
not
the
highest
paid
person's
opinion
and
not
the
same
person
who
gets
interrupted
all
the
time
and
there
are
all
these
caveats,
but
we
want
to
make
that
happen.
That's.
B
A
Other
thing
is
about
multitasking;
we
encourage
it,
well
encourage
it.
We
are
totally
cool
with
that.
So
you're,
the
boss
of
your
attention,
we
X,
we
monitor
your
output,
not
your
input,
if
you're
in
a
meeting,
and
especially
with
multiple
people
and
you're,
doing
something
else
on
the
site,
that's
cool.
Someone
has
to.
If
you
ask
someone,
can
you
repeat
that
question
because
I'm
doing
something
else,
that's
cool
like
this
should
happen
16
times
in
the
standing.
A
If
it
happens
three
times
in
a
meeting
of
50
minutes,
that
is
totally
okay
in
general,
you
save
time
I'm
multitasking,
you
have
a
limited
set
of
hours
in
the
day.
We
want
you
to
get
the
most
out
of
it.
Your
time
is
better
spent
somewhere
else.
That
minute,
that
is,
that
is
fine.
It's
not
something
to
be
embarrassed
about.
It's
actually
a
benefit
of
Romo
working
that
people
aren't
able
to
waste
your
time.
Many
times
you
join
a
meeting
and
not
the
entire
meeting
is
interesting
to
you.
B
Like
participant,
that's
interesting,
I
would
say:
I'm
Alta,
think
about
that.
A
little
bit,
I
think
my
what
I
have
found
may
be
people
obviously
multitask
in
our
environment
too.
I
found
it's
it's
almost.
The
most
important
thing
is
to
be
clear
on
the
point
of
what
the
conversation
is
so
like
right
now,
I
really
want
to
not
only
hear
you
but
I
want
to
I
want
to
understand
you.
B
Anyone,
listen
you
and
I
want
to
ultimately
connect
with
you
and
I
think
that
that
will
make
this
fun
for
me
and
I
believe
it
will
make
it
more
engaging
for
the
folks
who
are
watching
us
if
I
I
knew
my
and
maybe
sits
alimentation
of
myself
if
I
were
to
multitasking
I
would
have
a
harder
time
connecting
with
you.
So
my
choice
in
this
format
is
to
give
you
a
hundred
percent
of
my
attention.
B
Now
that
said,
are
there
situations
in
remote
work,
where
you
don't
need
a
hundred
percent
dedicated
attention
100,
you
know
obviously,
and
totally
I
I,
think
the
hygiene
for
me
is
about
knowing
knowing
what
you
need
to
give
in
order
to
connect
with
the
person
on
the
other
end,
because
back
to
something
they're
talking
about
earlier,
the
thing
that
the
thing
that's
most
in
jeopardy
with
remote
is
human
relationship.
In
my
opinion,
so
you're
gonna
work
harder
in
a
way
to
make
sure
that
those
don't
get
frayed.
Those
connection
points
until.
A
They
agree,
and
we
think
that
happens
by
being
intentional
about
the
informal
communication
yeah
so
every
day
we
have
a
call
at
the
beginning
of
the
day
or
break
our
call,
and
you
talk
about
life
outside
of
work.
I
had
one
this
morning,
I
had
one
two
days
ago,
two
days
ago
was
super
fun
because
we
talked
about
our
first
job.
I
was.
A
Was
I
was
getting
potatoes
out
of
the
field?
We
had
a
guy
who
worked
at
Victoria's
Secret
and
like
he
had
the
most
amazing
stories
about,
like
someone
gave
him
a
free
hot
dog
when
he,
when
he
showed
up
in
his
Victoria's
Secret
rope
outside
like
together,
we're
gonna
do
give
him
free
hotdogs.
It
was.
He
had
some
other
stories,
I
can't
repeat
here,
but
it
was.
It
was
really
really
cool.
No.
B
B
A
Meeting
I've
made
a
new
project,
code-named
I've
googled
Wikipedia,
and
found
a
Greek
thing
that
isn't
used
much
because
sometimes
I
can
tell
it's
a
good
answer.
I
kind
of
anticipate
what
you're
going
to
say,
I
know
what
my
next
question
is.
I
cannot
add
something
at
that
point:
I'm
gonna,
interrupt
you,
I'm,
gonna,
move
on
think
really
carefully
about
my
next
question
and
then
I'm
going
to
move
on,
but
I
think
it's
really
important
to
make
time
for
informal
communication.
A
B
A
Talked
about
today
about
how
me
and
Milan
first
formed
the
relationship
started,
working
together
and
so
I
think
it's
much
more
about
that
than
trying
to
bolt
that
on
to
transactional
meetings.
Transactional
meetings
should
just
be
efficient.
They
should
have
an
agenda
upfront,
a
Google
Doc.
Everyone
should
be
life.
Notetaking,
like
we
got
lots
of
rules
to
make
them
super
efficient
that
the
bonding
happens
outside
of
those
meetings.
That's.
B
Interesting
yeah
I
think
we
make.
Probably
you
got
more
game
than
I.
Do
that's
one
thing.
The
other
thing
would
have
been
doing
remote
for
a
while,
but
I
think
I
think
I
think
it's
about.
You
know
individual
needs
and
like
I
like
to
really
focus
but
I,
don't
think
I
wouldn't
judge
somebody
who's
able
to
connect
and
still
do
that,
and
it
sounds
like
you've
got
that
the
other
things
that
you
would
just
mention
that
I
think
are
really
important
for
remote.
B
Let's
just
call
it
remote
life
hygiene
or
making
sure
you
get
time
to
move
so
I
when
I
on
board
people
I
talk
about
hey
look,
you
have
you
have
more
capacity
to
structure
your
day
in
the
way
that
makes
sense
to
you.
So
the
one
thing
that
you
shouldn't
do
is
find
yourself
eight
hours
in
a
chair.
You
know
day
in
day
out.
It's
not
good
for
you.
It's
not
good
for
your
work
output,
so
you
know
get
up,
go
for
a
walk!
B
Yeah,
like
don't
don't
think
about
the
traditional
work
pattern
of
I,
go
to
work
at
work.
I
get
up,
I
go
to
lunch
and
I
because
you
won't,
you
know
in
a
workplace
a
lot
of
those
things
have
been
kind
of
become
part
of
our
normal
patterns.
But
here
in
my
home,
like
I,
have
found
myself
not
moving
for
whatever
12
hours
and
then
I
don't
feel
great
and
I'd
not
I'm,
not
as
productive.
So
you
have
to
build
new
habits
of
of
life
and
that's
really
important
with
him
sure.
A
B
A
B
A
B
Before
I
give
advice,
I'd
ask
a
question,
which
is:
why
are
you?
Why
do
you?
Why
is
this
important?
Why
do
you
think
it'll
be
a
but
benefit
to
you
with
anything?
That's
gotten
a
little
bit
of
let's
say
momentum.
You
know
in
an
industry
sector
I
think
some
companies
embrace
it
not
having
thought
through
their
reason.
Why
and
that
can
be
a
problem
because
I
it
isn't
it
isn't
as
if
it's
going
to
be
right
for
every
company
or
every
company
at
every
time.
B
So
I
ask
the
question:
why
and
if
they,
if
they
thought
through
their
reasons
and
the
reasons,
make
sense
and
I'm,
not
there's
probably
a
wide
set
of
reasons,
it
could
make
sense.
Then
I
would
say
a
few
things
be
be
rigorous
about
your
choice,
meaning
be
really
careful
of
making
exceptions
to
that
to
that
choice,
because
those
exceptions
drive
wedges
into
culture
and
become
problematic
and
likely
won't
work.
You
know
so
no.
A
B
Well,
we'll
do
remote
accepting
we're
gonna
do
this
office
because
you
know
somebody
coming
on
in
a
very
senior
job.
This
was
like:
I
really
have
to
have
an
office
and
I
really
have
to
bring
people
into
that
office,
and
you
know
I
can
understand
those
perspectives
and
be
very
empathetic
for
that
point
of
view,
but
I
think
once
you
get
a
lot
of
cultural
energy
behind
remote.
Those
things
just
provide
friction,
so
you
know
be
be
intentional
and
be
rigorous
and
be
committed.
I
think
those
are
the
few
things
I
would
say,
agree.
A
B
I
mean
we
do
we
like
I
talked
about
talk
about
onboarding,
which,
for
us
is
a
is
a
form
of
early
training
like
here's,
how
here's,
how
we
work,
here's
the
things
that
we
expect
we've
chosen
to
still
get
together
as
an
organization
we've
gotten
together
as
a
entire
organization.
Once
your
last
two
years,
we
get
together.
B
Groups
once
a
year
and
I
still
think
that's
important,
but
I
think
I
think
it's
important
in
a
way
that
some
people
don't
expect
so
Clark
our
founder,
really
adamant
about
not
using
face
to
face
meetings
to
do
things
like
monthly
business
reviews
or
quarterly
business
reviews
and
I
think
his
point
is
absolutely
dead
on
or
all
remote
companies
should
be
able
to
do
it,
some
machining,
all
remote,
whereas
you
know
the
thing
that
you
should
do.
If
you
get
people
together
is
develop
together,
so
grow
train,
educate,
create
together
and
particularly
deepen
relationships
together.
B
So
it's
almost
like,
if
you
use,
if
you,
if
you
get
on
planes
and
go
to
somewhere
and
just
show
up
and
talk
about
what
you're
going
to
do
for
the
next
quarter,
it's
just
a
huge
waste.
If
you
get
on
planes
and
go
and
show
up
and
spend
time
really
deepening
your
relationships,
you've
done
the
right
thing.
B
A
B
Businesses
that
well
at
least
what
seems
to
be
the
case
right
now
and
I-
wouldn't
want
to
speculate
at
this
I.
Don't
think
that's
always
the
case,
but
what
seems
to
be
the
case
now
and
why
it
seems
to
have
been
taken
up
in
SAS
and
technology.
Companies
is
a
high
degree
of
professionalization
of
the
of
the
workers.
You
know
so
someone
knows
what
job
they
have
to
do
and,
generally
speaking,
does
not
need
to
be
watched
in
doing
that
day
and
day
up
so
high
degree
of
competency
level
in
the
job
is
questioned.
B
I
also
think
that
or-
and
that
doesn't
just
mean
technology-
there's
nothing,
there's
other
sectors.
That's
probably
true,
I
think
that
organizations
that
interestingly
organizations
that
have
a
high
degree
of
flow
for
people
doing
our
work.
So
obviously
engineering
organizations
are
particularly
well
suited
so
where
people,
when
they're
not
being
interrupted
by
distractions,
do
some
of
their
best
work.
Those
are
very
good.
Organizations
for
remote
I
actually
think
that
there'll
be
wonderful.
B
Customer
facing
organizations
all
remote
and
I
mean
that,
like
B
to
C,
naught
naught
B
to
B
soon,
because
more
and
more
customers
will
be
used
to
engaging
with
people
in
a
remote
way
and
I.
Think
they'll
see
probably
the
rise
of
organizations
that
are
service
organizations
and
b2c
organizations.
Even
if
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
them
more.
A
A
B
For
them,
yeah,
that's
a
great
question
and
I
and
I
am
I
when
we
screen
the
that
they
give
to
that
question,
is
it
is
important
for
us
to
determine
whether
or
not
they're
a
great
candidate
for
envision?
So
envision
is
a
is
a
great
company
that
happens
to
be
remote
and
that's
been
our
choice
in
terms
of
how
we
like
go
to
the
talent
market.
B
So
the
important
feature
of
that
is
that
if
somebody
says
as
a
candidate
like
I
really
want
to
work
with
you
because
you're
an
all
remote
company,
that's
for
us
a
little
bit
of
a.
Let
me
not
necessarily
a
danger
signal,
but
something
that
we're
going
to
dig
into
a
little
bit
more.
It's
like
well,
do
you
want?
Are
you
excited
about
our
technology?
Are
you
excited
about
our
customers?
Are
you
excited
about
our
culture
and,
yes,
being
all
remote
allows
for
a
great
variety
of
lifestyle
options?
I
think
there's
coming
there
are?
B
There
are
companies,
and
there
are-
you-
know,
they're
there,
there's
lots
of
opportunities
for
people
who
that's
the
main
thing
is
all
remote
for
us.
It's
it's
what
we
are
and
how
we
work,
but
I
would
want
someone
to
express
a
different
set
of
priorities
as
to
why
they
want
to
choose
us
that
makes
sense.
A
B
A
You,
like
our
values-
maybe
you
like
our
product
yeah
but
yeah.
We
all
said
the
same
thing
and
I
mean
a
lot
of
some
of
these
people
actually
expect
a
remote
company
that
they
have
to
work
less
actually
has
to
work
more
so
you're
better
off
in
a
co-located
company,
because
in
many
of
them
you
can
just
show
up
and
people
presume
you're
working
and
get
liable,
actually
check
your
out.
Putting
your
results
so
well.
B
In
for
us,
it's
also
like
we're
trying
to
build
a
company
with
with
a
very
strong
culture,
and
there
is
a
reasonable
there's,
a
reasonable.
You
know
remote
worker
choice
where
it's
I'd
like
to
contribute
my
work
to
a
buyer
like
more
of
a
moral,
almost
more
of
a
contractual
relationship
like
I
will
give
work
to
you.
You
will
take
that
work
and
you
will
use
whatever
you
want,
but
I
kind
of
want
to
independence.
B
You
know,
at
least
you
know
mental
independence.
From
from
that,
and
you
know
for
us,
it's
really
important
that
you
want
to
be
an
envision
ER.
You
know,
as
opposed
to
sort
of
throwing
your
work
into
the
envision
pot,
and
given
that
focus,
we
want
people
who
are
really
interested
in
being
part
of
the
company
as
our
company
and
what
makes
our
company
unique
and
it
sounds
like
you're
exactly
the
same
way
so
cool.
A
B
I
didn't
know
that
until
until
literally
I
was
on
a
panel
of
somebody
from
out
about
this
last
week,
we
we
use
email,
but
it's
a
it's
a
third,
it's
a
third
use,
and
then
yes,
we
drink
our
own
kool-aid,
so
free
hand
and
and
other
other
collaboration
tools,
and
our
own
platform
are
used
daily
by
everybody
here,
and
we
have
obviously
a
huge
another
big
tech
stack
for
various
functionalities,
but
yeah
slack
and
zoom,
and
then
our
own
platform.
Those
are
the
those
are
the
big
three.
A
Cool
what
advantages
do
grow
remote
organization
have
to
when
it
comes
to
building
and
sustaining
their
company
culture?
Yes,
we
hear
a
lot.
Oh
you
old,
remote,
sorry
about
your
culture
right
now.
We
actually
think
we
have
a
much
stronger
culture
than
most
company,
so
so.
But
what
do
you
think
and
and
what's
easier
culture
wise
if.
B
B
B
Building
thing
so
being
all
remote
and
having
it
be
a
little
bit
different
than
the
norm
for
the
last
say
decade
is
an
enormous,
culturally
gender
thing.
That's
gonna
not
be
as
easy
to
rely
on
right.
So
there's
there's
you,
okay,
there's
other
companies
that
we
know
that's
gonna,
be
less
and
less
a
distinguishing
feature,
so
I
think
the
key
for
a
lot
of
our
companies,
especially
over
the
next
decade,
is
gonna,
be
less
and
less
about
being
that
wonky,
weird
all
remote
company
and
being
in
the
way
you
work
in
that
company.
B
So
there's
other
principles
that
we
have
here
that
we
use
to
generate
culture
and
they're
about
who
we
are
what
an
envision
er
is
so,
as
you
know,
I
mean
we're.
Our
platform
is
about
design,
it
empowers
design.
So
one
of
our
principles
is
we're
all
designers,
no
matter
what
your
role,
no
matter,
what
what
job
you
have
at
envision.
You
are
a
designer
and
that's
just
that's
as
much
a
framework
about
a
mental
model
as
it
is
about
the
job.
You
know.
B
A
Just
made
a
commit
and
the
commit
is
titled
over
remote,
isn't
the
value
and
it's
on
our
value
space,
I
added
a
new
section
that
says
what
isn't?
What
is
not
a
value?
Okay,
it's
always
important
to
define
that
this
old
remote
isn't
a
value.
It's
something
we
do,
because
it
helps
us
to
practice
our
values
of
transparency,
efficiency,
diversity
and
iteration,
and
results.
A
A
couple
of
examples
like
maybe
they
should
join
a
Wi-Fi
tribe,
a
digital
Nomad
chapter.
If
you
they
want
to
relocate,
maybe
they
want
to
go
somewhere
really
nice
nature
or
something
like
that
or
travel
more
like
work
work
from
kind
of
a
vacation
destination
for
a
couple
of
weeks.
What
are
things
you'd,
you'd
encourage
yeah.
B
People
in
the
past
who
haven't
been
used
to
this
hey,
try
if
you're
able
to
try
working
from
somewhere
else,
that's
just
a
different
place.
You
know
go
see
family
that
you
haven't
seen
that
you
want
to
see
in
a
while
go
see
friends
that
you
haven't
see,
seen
and
and
work
wrap
your
work
around
that
to
experience
it
because
that
that's
when
you
really
start
to
understand
what
this
does
for
your
life,
but
I'll
answer
the
question
in
a
very
different
way,
which
I
think
is
important.
B
Remote
work
life
can
be
lonely,
and
it's
also
okay
for
someone
to
notice
and
then
name
that
for
themselves,
like
just
be
like
I
need,
I
need
to
find
a
way
to
get
human
interaction
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
think
you
know
we
we're
in
the
job
of
making
sure
that
people
understand
what
this
does
on
the
positive
side.
I
also
think
it's
really
important
to
think
about
when
it's
hard,
you
know
and
and
then
it's
almost
like.
B
You
know
the
Theory
of
Constraints,
like
there's
all
this
stuff,
that
remote
unlocks
for
us
and
then
there's
some
things
that
we
should
recognize
as
being
challenges
and
make
sure
we
spend
a
lot
of
effort
and
time
thinking
about
that.
So
I'd
answer
it.
This
way
for
the
new
employee
like
realize
that
you're
gonna
have
places
in
your
experience
that
will
be
challenging.
You
will
have
times
where.
Maybe
you
feel
lonely
you
will
have
times
where.
Maybe
you
feel
confused
and
sort
of
at
a
distance
from
something
your.
A
B
Your
teammate,
that's
like
it's!
Okay,
like
it's,
not
it's,
not
a
failure
in
you.
It's
part
of
adapting
to
the
system,
so
the
answer
to
that
is
to
reach
out
like
that
communicate.
So
one
of
the
things
that
I
say
is
that
you
Mark
you're
gonna,
find
yourself
needing
to
be
more
upfront
likely
about
a
lot
of
your
communication.
So
your
value
around
transparency,
I
think,
is
a
really
important
one.
A
A
B
We've
tried
we
have.
We
allow
for
propagation
of
channels
and
slack
according
to
interests
and
hobbies
and
activities.
I
mean
obviously
that's
an
easy
one,
something
that
we're
trying
now.
That
I
think
is
it's
too
early
stage
to
know
if
it's
working
or
not
is
an
official
like
break
room,
zoom
experience
that
happens
over
the
course
of
a
week.
So
here's
a
break
room,
there's
no
objective
to
it.
There's
no
task
in
it.
B
It's
a
time
for
people
to
go
in
and
have
a
break
and
hang
out,
and
sometimes
there's
a
member
of
my
people
team
in
there.
But
that's
not
it's
not
like
going
me
to
people
team
person.
It's
it's
just
about
time
and
I,
like
that's
an
expense,
a
recent
experiment.
So
we've
only
been
doing
this
about
three
months:
I,
don't
have
a
good
enough
data
yet
to
know
how
that's
working
I
would
say
that
the
happy
hour
will
have
the
remote
happy
hours
never
really
like
for
me.
B
A
B
A
Want
people
who
are
not
drinking
alcohol
or
some
other
beverage
to
include
it,
but
it's
it's
kind
of
an
an
individual
contributor
initiative.
It's
going
well
by
the
way.
We
also
tried
this
breakout
room,
I
called
it
the
random
room,
because
we
had
a
vendôme
slack
channel
figure.
We
call
random
broom.
It
was
kind
of
linked,
it
didn't
really
take
off,
but
I
think
for
us,
the
the
breakout
call.
So
it's
a
scheduled
time
of
the
day.