►
Description
Kubernetes and the state of open source: We chat with Joe Beda
GitLab CEO, Sid Sijbrandij, sits down with Kubernetes co-creator Joe Beda to talk about the future of open source.
Blog post: http://bit.ly/30w93gB
Read more about our product vision: http://bit.ly/2IyXDOX
Learn about FOSS & GitLab: http://bit.ly/2KegFjx
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B
So
so
I'm
Joe
Beda
I'm
a
principal
engineer
at
VMware
now,
but
we
just
joined
VMware
through
the
startup
and
acquisition
of
our
startup
FTO,
we're
in
business.
We
joined
about
three
months
ago,
so
really
been
integrating
for
about
two
months
and
then
hep
tio
is
in
business
for
about
two
years:
Craig
McKee
and
I,
with
the
mission
of
bringing
kubernetes
to
enterprises,
awesome.
B
B
B
You
know
I,
don't
think
any
of
us
expected
that
it
would
be
what
it
is
today.
You
know
when
you
start
something
like
that.
You
have
a
sense
that
hey
this
could
be
something
other
people
find
interesting.
But
you
know
we
don't
have
you
know,
as
you
know,
it's
it's
hard
as
humans
to
understand
the
scale
of
these
things
once
they
take
off.
It
goes
from
being
something
that
you
can
feel
to
just
you
know
numbers
in
terms
of
number
of
deployments
who's
actually
using
it.
B
It's
still
impressive
to
me
when
it'll
be
like
a
cube
con
or
something
in
it'll,
be
you
know
some
company
in
Brazil
that
I've
never
heard
of
will
come
up
and
say:
hey
we've
like
free
platformed,
everything
on
kubernetes
and
it's
working
great
for
us
I'm,
always
waiting
for
somebody
to
say
hey,
we
started
using
kubernetes
and
it's
horrible
I'm
sure
there's
stories
out
there,
but
we
haven't
heard
nobody's
actually
said
that
to
me
so
so
far,
it's
been
really
great
to
hear
all
the
stories
of
everybody
using
it
from
all
over
the
place.
Yeah.
A
It's
amazing-
and
it's
still
accelerating
I
heard
that,
like
that's
in
deeds
of
the
next
coupon
it
was,
is
gonna,
be
double
the
number
than
they
anticipated
there's
such
so
still
so
much
interest
and
new
people
flowing
into
it.
Even
even
not
a
kubernetes
is
maturing
everything
is
it's
building
a
foundation
for
everything
else
to
be
built.
On
top
of
that,
and.
B
That's
I
mean
that's.
One
of
the
things
that
we
really
wanted
to
do
on
multiple
levels
was
really
build,
something
that
could
be
built
upon
both
in
a
technical
sense,
but
also
you
know,
we
very
much
had
the
idea
from
the
start
that
we
wanted
to
build
a
community.
We
wanted
to
enable
other
people
to
own
it
to
be
part
of
it
to
really
feel
like
they
were
instrumental
in
making
it
happen,
and
that's
what
happened
I
mean.
B
So
it's
easy
for
us
to
say:
hey,
you
know,
look
at
how
successful
it
is,
but
the
reality
is
is
that
you
know
there
are
so
many
people
that
put
so
much
time
so
much
effort
so
much.
You
know
blood
and
sweat
into
it
to
really
get
it
to
where
it
is,
and
so
it's
it's
really
a
product
of
the
community
than
than
of
any.
You
know
single
group
of
people,
yeah.
A
For
gate,
lab
kubernetes
came
just
in
time
like
we
were
looking
forward
to
doing
operations
with
I
get
lab
and
if
it
wasn't
for
kubernetes
we'd
have
to
support
very
many
standards,
but
it
it's
at
that
time.
We,
everyone
was
super
excited
about
kubernetes
and
all
those
api's
were
there
too
incremental
roll
outs
and
all
those
things
that
are
very
difficult
to
orchestrate.
Otherwise,
what
do
you
think
artists?
Api
is
meant
to
be
used
by
humans,
or
are
they
meant
to
offer
a
platform
for
people
to
build
additional
tooling
on.
B
I
very
much
that
the
second
one
I
mean
we
really
wanted
kubernetes
to
be
something
that
really
sat
in
the
middle,
because
we
knew
I
mean
there
was
this
feeling
that
there
was
this
middle
layer
that
could
be
relatively
widely
used
and
and
and
applicable.
But
we
also
had
this
feeling
that
there
were
going
to
be
sort
of
flavours
of
experiences
that
could
be
built
on
top
of
it,
and
so
something
like
get
lab.
B
That's
very
much
focused
on
on
on
more
traditional
type
of
applications
is
one
thing,
but
then
you
look
at
something
like
say:
cube
flow
for
doing.
Machine
learning
also
can
build.
On
top
of
this
base
and
I
think
with
the
fullness
of
time
we're
gonna
see,
you
know,
big
data
also
start
to
really
find
a
home
on
top
of
kubernetes,
as
as
we
continue
to
improve
the
capabilities
and
so
yeah,
so
very
much
and
like
in
terms
of
being
used
by
humans,
I'm
horrified
that
people
are
still
editing,
yeah
mold
by
hand.
Yes,
thank
you.
B
A
B
Yeah
I
do
think
that
you
know
with
respect
to
you,
know,
80
or
90
percent
of
what
developers
need
to
do
around
sort
of
you
know,
deploying
applications
I
think
we
can
find
sort
of
a
common
ground
there
and
I
think
it
starts.
Looking
like
a
you
know,
a
decomposed
or
an
exploded,
platform-as-a-service
type
of
thing,
and
so
I
look
at
projects
like
K
native
and
I
think
that
they're
starting
to
make
a
down
payment
on
building
that
tool
set.
For
you
know.
B
Those
higher-level
experiences
on
topic
for
Vancouver,
Nettie's
and
I
think
one
of
the
key
learnings
from
looking
at
more
traditional
platforms
as
a
service
is
that
those
things
are
great
until
they're,
not
and
so
with
a
well
factored
layered
platform,
which
I
think
as
a
community
we're
starting
to
build.
Once
you
hit
one
of
those
walls,
you
you
can
degrade
gracefully,
you
can
actually
use
lower
levels
without
having
to
sort
of
throw
it
all
away
and
start
from
start
from
scratch.
Yeah.
B
A
B
I
think
we,
you
know,
we
really
wanted
to
to
bring
this
sort
of
the
UNIX
philosophy
to
this
world
where
there
were,
you
know
smaller
components
that
you
could
wrap
your
head
around
and
these
things
compose
into
a
larger
experience,
and
so
you
know,
there's
pluses
and
minuses
to
that.
I
mean
there's
a
reason
why
Windows
is
so
successful.
It's
this
well
integrated!
Well
tested.
B
You
know,
happy
path,
type
of
thing,
but
I
think
that,
as
we
look
at
all
of
the
sort
of
environments
at
something
like
Linux
found
its
way
into
everything
from
a
phone
to
a
mainframe.
That
sort
of
you
know,
componentized
view
has
served
it
well
as
as
we've
seen
it,
you
know,
spread
to
all
these
different
environments
and
I
and
I
hope
that
kubernetes
can
be
as
adaptable
as
as
that
over
time.
Yeah.
A
B
B
B
B
You
know
some
of
the
stuff
that's
going
on
around
how
we
think
about
build
pipelines
and
decomposing
a
lot
of
the
CI
CD
space
and
to
you
know
something
going
from
sort
of
the
you
know,
traditional
type
of
like
hey,
it's
one
single
big
system
to
you
know:
can
we
break
this
apart
and
find
fault
lines
and-
and
you
know,
sub
components,
I
think
it's
interesting
to
see
that
evolve
and
so
I
think
that's
a
that's
an
interesting
space.
Every
Friday,
you
know
me
or
Chris
Nova.
B
Do
a
TGI
kubernetes,
it's
a
YouTube
livestream
where
we
play
with
new
projects,
and
you
know
and
find
things
that
people
are
doing
and
get
hands-on
with
it
and
so
I
really
do
enjoy.
Just
you
know,
you
know,
opening
up
the
box
and
playing
with
the
new
technology
and
understanding
how
it
works
and
there's
always
something
new,
which
is
super,
exciting
cool.
A
B
B
You
know
where,
if
that
license
is
already
there,
when
the
project
starts,
then
everybody
knows
where
you
stand,
but
I
think
this
transition
of
doing
it
after
you
have
a
mature
project.
I
understand
why
you
know
why
people
do
it,
but
I
think
it's
it's
it's
very
much.
You
know
tricky
waters
to
navigate
yeah.
A
I
think
what
you're
referring
to
is
that
for
to
contribute
to
some
open
source
projects.
You
need
to
sign
a
contributor,
License,
Agreement
and
I
transfers
the
copyright
to
the
company
in
the
company.
The
company
can
later
on
change
the
license
of
the
code
and
it's
something
that,
for
example,
the
Debian
project
already
was
seeing.
So
when
Debian
started
to
use
git
lab,
they
said:
hey,
we
we're
not
gonna,
accept
or
we're
not
gonna.
They
were
much
more
kind
about
it.
A
B
But
you
know
it's
really
about
sort
of
what
about
forward-looking,
new
contributions
to
the
codebase,
and
so
it's
something
to
consider
I,
think
but
again
I
again,
it's
like
there's
the
code
and
the
license
for
the
code
and
then
there's
the
community
that
builds
around
it
and
there's
a
even
if
it's
not
a
legal
contract.
I
think
there's
a
social
contract
between
the
the
leaders
of
an
open-source
project
and
the
people
who
are
members
of
that
community
and
I
think
you
have
to.
You
have
to
be
very
respectful
that
social
contract
I.
A
B
Man
I,
you
know
there
are
two
very
legitimate
sides
to
this.
On
the
one
hand,
it's
open
source-
and
you
know
part
of
open
source-
is
you
are
giving
something
away,
I
mean
and
it's
a
very
real
sort
of
letting
go.
The
second
thing
is
that
Amazon
is
adding
real
features
that
benefit
real
users.
At
the
end
of
the
day.
You
know
people
want
security
for
the,
for
you
know
elasticsearch
right,
and
that
was
something
that
wasn't
available
in
the
open-source
version
of
elasticsearch.
B
On
the
other
hand,
you
know
we
do
need
to
find
sustainable
business
models
so
that
people
continue
to
invest
in
these
things,
and
you
know,
for
you
know,
I
mean
my
advice
to
anybody
who
is,
who
is
you
know,
building
a
company
around
open
source
is
to
to
understand
sort
of
you
know.
Where
are
your
levers?
Where
is
the
value
that
you're
adding?
And
you
know
you
know,
try
and
be
creative
about
finding
ways
to
add
value
where
something
like
this
can't
happen?
B
A
Agree
kubernetes
has
become
very
popular
and
there's.
It
seems
that
there's
some
almost
defaults
developing
on
top
of
kubernetes
using
envoi
for
the
data
plane
using
Prometheus
for
the
metrics.
Do
you
see
that
too?
They
think
those
who
overcome
defaults
or
do
you
think
it
will
always
be
a
heterogeneous
being
on
top
I.
B
Think
it'll
be
heterogeneous
right,
you
can
use
Linux
without
sort
of
you
know,
G
Lib
C
right,
but
you
know
two
great
tastes
that
taste
great
together.
I
think
you
know
we
look
at
the
Linux
community.
There
is
a
symbiosis
happening
between
sort
of
system
D
and
the
kernel
and
I
think
that
that's
something
that
gives
a
lot
of
people
pause
right,
and
so
you
know,
as
we
see
kubernetes
developed,
we
may
find
that
there
are
components
that
are
just
so
part
and
parcel
that
they
might
as
well
be
be.
B
You
know,
included
as
part
of
the
kernel
I'm,
not
sure
that
we're
actually
there
yet
there's
a
lot
of
folks
that
use
kubernetes
without
prometheus
there's.
A
lot
of
you
know,
folks
that
that
do
ingress
without
envoy,
in
fact
I
would
has.
You
know,
probably
guess
that
the
nginx
ingress
is
probably
the
most
popular
ingress
out
there.
B
B
Know
I
I,
oh
man,
I
think
no
I'm,
not
sure
I
mean,
like
you
know,
part
of
the
you
know
you
know
as
B
as
as
as
I
start
my
career
as
a
you
know,
and
and
and
develop
I.
Think
one
of
the
the
sort
of
you
know
technologist
disease
is
is
thinking
that
you
have
to
have
an
opinion
on
everything
and
and
personally
freeing
myself
from
having
to
have
an
opinion
on
everything
is
actually
so
I
really
don't
have
an
opinion.
I
mean
I.
I.
B
B
A
B
Well,
you
know
I
think
it's
worthwhile
to
talk
about
our
motivations
for
hep
do
joining
VMware.
You
know,
hep
TOS.
Point
of
view
is
that
we
really
see
ourselves
as
a
cloud
independent
ally
for
enterprises,
as
they
look
to
adopt
kubernetes
and
I.
Think
that,
as
we
start
to
see,
you
know
these,
you
know
enterprises
start
to
adopt
cloud
understanding.
B
A
B
B
A
I
think
we
get
louder
and
counted
the
same
thing
when
we
sold
consultancy
to
install
and
upgrade
get
lab.
We
took
those
lessons
put
them
in
the
documentation.
Put
the
em
in
the
Installer
and
people
didn't
need
our
console
to
see
anymore.
So
you
kind
of,
if
that,
if
you
hope
for
that
to
be
your
business
as
she
starts
contributing
back,
you
kind
of
strangle,
their
business
yeah.
B
A
I
think
one
of
the
interesting
things
is
that
the
most
valuable
software
company
enterprise
software
company
ever
sold
was
rat
hat,
which
was
pretty
fun
pretty
fanatic
about
never
having
any
IP
if
they
bought
a
company
when
unique
IP,
they
would
open
sourced,
and
so
there
is
a
business
to
be
build
on
that
and
I
was
super
great
to
see
the
VMware
recognized
like
the
value
of
happy,
oh
and
and
and
acquired
you
guys
at
a
considerable
price.
No
comment.
B
What
but
ya
know
it's
been?
It's
been
a
great
journey.
Joining
VMware
really
have
enjoyed
meeting
everybody
around
the
company
and
and
I
think
that
there
is
a
you
know,
there's
a
real
sort
of
desire
within
VMware
to
to
evolve
the
business
move
forward
and
adapt
to
the
to
the
new
world
that
we're
all
living
in
yeah.