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From YouTube: Interview: Alex (Clearbit) & Matt with Sid Sijbrandij (GitLab) on scaling an all-remote culture
Description
Alex MacCaw (CEO, Clearbit) and Matt Mochary (author of The Great CEO Within) interview GitLab co-founder and CEO Sid Sijbrandij. The group was joined by GitLab CEO Shadow Wayne Haber and Head of Remote Darren Murph.
Topics ranged from GitLab's founding as an all-remote company, scaling a company with no offices, hiring the world's best talent, retaining talent, compensation and legal considerations, and structuring informal communication. The group also covered remote collaboration as well as second and third-order economic impacts of remote on society.
Links to related topics are below.
➞ Sid Sijbrandij's tweet thread on the dangers of hybrid-remote: https://twitter.com/sytses/status/1264341436138270720
➞ Download GitLab's Remote Playbook: http://allremote.info/
➞ GitLab's complete guide to all-remote: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/guide/
➞ Learn more about GitLab's all-remote history: https://about.gitlab.com/company/history/#how-did-gitlab-become-an-all-remote-company
➞ Learn more about GitLab's values: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/values/
➞ Informal communication: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/informal-communication/
➞ Building culture in a remote environment: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/building-culture/
➞ Transitioning to remote: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/transition/
➞ Dangers of hybrid-remote: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/hybrid-remote/
A
We
have
one
of
the
greatest
founders:
that's
running
a
remote
company
said
he's
running
coming
called
gitlab,
I
think
potentially
one
of
the
biggest
remote
companies
of
all
time,
potentially,
and
so
maybe
Syd.
You
want
to
give
us
a
little
introduction.
I
know
this
is
going
out
on
your
live
stream,
but
it's
also
going
to
be
syndicated
in
other
places.
Yeah.
B
Thanks,
thanks
for
your
interest,
I'm
delighted
to
be
able
to
talk
with
you
and
yeah
get
lab
is
a
complete
and
DevOps
platform
delivered
as
a
single
application.
It's
a
the
company's
all
remote.
We
don't
have
any
places
where
people
are
co-located
and
it's
1,300
people
at
the
company
and
thousands
of
people
who
have
contributed
to
the
open-source
project,
and
this.
B
A
We're
trying
to
do
with
this
series
is
everyone.
Is
that
kind
of
help
remote?
You
know
before
all
these
only
CEOs
like
myself,
we're
thinking
and
remote
sounds
really
interesting.
Maybe
they
had
a
hybrid
model,
and
maybe
they
had
some
engineers
across
the
country,
but
maybe
they
had
headquarters
in
San
Francisco
and
now
we
are
all
100%,
remote
and
I
suspect.
A
A
lot
of
these
CEOs
are
secretly
kind
of
freaked
freaking
out
internally,
there's
a
lot
of
fear
which
being
CEO
is,
they
tend
not
to
demonstrate
they
tend
to
put
put
on
a
stiff
upper
lip,
as
we
say
in
England,
but
there's
a
lot
of
favor,
because
we
have
not
run
remote
companies
before
we
don't
know
how
to
and
we're
searching
around
for
answers,
and
this
is
what
this
series
is
all
about.
It's
a
mini
series
are
some
of
the
best
remote
founders
to
try
and
learn
from
them
and
Matt.
C
C
I
think
I
can
take
that
one
step
further,
so
I
coach,
a
lot
of
CEOs
of
tech
hailing
tech
companies
and
they
have
come
to
me
and
I
said
you
know
I
always
ask
how
can
I
be
more
effective
and
more
valuable
to
you
and
and
it's
pretty
universal
they've
all
said
Matt.
We
need
you
to
go
out
and
become
the
expert
in
how
to
run
a
remote
company,
because
that's
what
we
need
most
right
now.
So
that's
really
that
and
Alex.
C
You
know
also
feels
that
need
that's
what
inspired
this
and
we're
talking
to
the
CEOs
of
the
intentionally
remote
companies,
not
the
accidentally
remote,
which
everybody
is
and
I
think
said
that
you
were
basically
at
the
apex
of
that
world.
Correct
me
if
I'm
wrong,
but
I
think
you
run
the
largest,
at
least
by
a
number
of
people
intentionally
remote
company
that
exists,
at
least
in
the
tech
world,
is
that.
C
And
but,
but
also
in
terms
of
thought
leadership,
you
published
the
most
made
all
your
documents
public,
so
that
everyone
can
understand
actually
how
you
operate
and
it's
clear
from
those
published
documents
just
how
much
care
and
thought
you've
put
into
the
act
of
running
a
remote
company.
So
you
don't
have
to
respond
to
that.
That's
just
a
compliment
with
that.
Let's
dive
into
your
view
of
what
the
most
important
things
are
and
I
think
we're.
I'd
love
to
start
is
say
it
if
you
can
just
sort
of
by
way
of
background.
C
B
So
the
first
employ
II
was
in
Serbia,
I
was
in
the
Netherlands
and
Dmitry
was
in
the
Ukraine.
So
that's
how
we
started
off
being
remote
just
because
we're
in
different
countries,
I
hired
a
couple
of
people
in
the
Netherlands
they
came
to.
My
house,
I
had
two
desks
in
a
room
and
then
day
four
they
stopped
showing
up.
It
was
kind
of
a
panic
and
it's
never
was
never
explicit.
B
It's
just
I
invited
them
for
the
first
day
on
Monday
and
he
showed
up
the
next
day
in
the
next
day
and
then
they
didn't
show
up
day.
Four
and
I
was
a
bit
puzzled,
like
they
didn't
say,
didn't,
ask
a,
but
they
showed
up
on
chat
and
so
I
was
like
okay
well
whatever,
and
so
they
kept
working.
She
kept
working
just
didn't
ring
the
bell
at
my
house
and
kind
of
make
sense,
because
it
was
a
commute
for
them.
Why
do
that?
B
If
the
whole
rest
of
the
team
isn't
that
my
house
and
after
three
days
we
were
mostly
sitting
beside
each
other
looking
at
our
laptops
anyway,
the
next
phase
was
y
combinator.
We
were
all
in
the
house
together,
I,
sometimes
jokingly,
say
we
were,
you
know,
streamed
in
on
all
remote,
because
we
live
together
for
three
months
in
a
way
to
small
house.
But
it's
it's
one
of
those
experiences
that
are
really
great
in
hindsight
and
they
told
us
like
look.
Not
a
lot
of
startups
are
successful.
B
Remote
people
try
it,
but
it
seems
to
work
for
engineering,
but
not
anything
else
and
we're
like
okay.
Well,
he
to
that
advice.
We
got
an
office
on
a
fin
Howard
in
San
Francisco
and
could
put
seven
or
eight
desks
in
there,
and
first
person
showed
up
Hayden.
He
was
already
working
at
get
life
for
a
while
and
same
there
day.
Four
he
doesn't
show
again,
like
he
didn't
say
anything
I
didn't
say
anything.
We
didn't
agree
on
that,
it's
just
it
wasn't
part
of
our
culture
and
it
was
for
him.
B
It
was
like
why
travel
all
the
way
from
Alameda
to
SF
when
all
you're
doing
is
you
sit
next
to
sit
who's
talking
to
his
camera
all
day?
So
again
it
wasn't
needed,
and
then
we
had
a
ton
of
execs
that
came
in
and
said,
I
remember
our
sales
lead.
It
was
like
I,
don't
think
this
is
gonna
work,
I
think
it
would
have
to
be
co-located
I'm
like
great.
We
got
this
lease
on
this
office
or
being
a
ton
of
money,
so
feel
free,
but
he
lived
in
Sacramento,
so
he
was
his.
B
We
had
we
hired
great
people,
many
of
them
were
in
Utah,
they
did
great
and
you
could
be
enthusiastic
over
zoom
and
in
slack
and
celebrate
each
other
you
it's
actually
convenient
that
you
have
silence
around
you
if
you're
talking
with
a
customer
so
time
and
time
again
we
weren't
against
it,
but
it
just
didn't
happen
and
I.
We
said:
okay,
we
we
better
make
sure
to
embrace
this
and
the
hardest
point
was
our
serious
be
fundraise,
where
we
really
had
to
kind
of
make
a
case
that
this
could
work
and
could
scale.
Mm-Hmm
awesome.
C
B
B
If
people
notice
us
and
they
like
what
they
see,
they
they're
very
likely
to
be
able
to
join
the
company
if
they
meet
the
requirements,
so
the
in
the
end,
a
company
is
a
collection
of
people
and
we
were
able
to
hire
better
people.
I
think
that's
the
the
top
thing
that
improved.
Apart
from
that,
it's
also
like
a
whole
lot
less
distraction.
Last
year
we
tripled
the
company
from
400
to
1200
people.
Imagine
trying
to
have
to
like
move
offices
twice
a
year
or
something
could
be
a
big
distraction.
B
A
Is
a
very
enticing
right
now,
because
we
have
a
massive
lease
that
is
going
unused
so
having
everyone
at
home
makes
a
lot
of
sense.
It
would
be
great
to
hear
from
you
Darren
had
a
remote
for
a
thousand
plus
a
remote
org.
That's
a
pretty
serious
job,
it'd
be
great
to
hear
a
bit
about
what
that
entails,
and
a
little
bit
more
from
you,
yeah.
D
D
But
in
the
process
of
doing
that,
it
became
really
useful
for
the
people
group,
so
I'm,
helping
with
onboarding
making
sure
that
our
onboarding
is
really
prescriptive
and
articulate
you
got
to
remember.
A
lot
of
people
are
joining
the
company
company
from
a
co-located
space,
so
acclimating
to
all
remote
can
be
difficult
or
jarring,
and
a
lot
of
it
takes
reinforcement
and
so
I'm.
Working
with
with
that
group
and
building
that
out
and
then
more
recently,
working
with
learning
and
development
and
formalizing.
C
Thanks
Darren
and
then
coming
back
to
CID,
so
Sid
we
were,
you
talked
about
the
benefits
you
can
hire.
You
know
great
people
elsewhere
that
you
wouldn't
be
able
to
otherwise,
and
this
is
actually
a
fear
that
people
have
people
fear
that
will
they
actually
be
able
to
hire
great
people
outside
of
the
Bay
Area,
because
they're
not
really
sure
that
those
great
people
exist
outside
of
the
Bay
Area.
You
actually
know-
and
you
may
say
well,
we
can
hire
great
engineers
outside,
but
what
about
business
development?
What
about
customer
service?
C
B
It
is
not
equally
distributed,
especially
the
later
in
careers.
You
get.
Do
you
want
someone
who
has
run
a
technology
startup
that
has
gone
public
you're
gonna
end
up
in
the
Bay
Area
a
lot
of
times
and
typically
go
to
market
efforts
are
located
close
to
the
customers.
The
u.s.
is
the
biggest
software
market
in
the
world.
By
far
so,
if
you're
going
to
look
at
cereals
are
getting
talent,
you're
gonna
very
likely
end
up
in
the
metro
areas
of
the
US
and
very
likely
just
on
the
west
coast
and
East
Coast.
B
But
it's
there's
less
diversity
there,
by
the
way
being
remote
makes
it
much
easier
to
hire,
because
everyone
in
the
bay
is
tired
of
their
commute,
and
there
are
some
people
from
the
Bay
Area
that
want
to
move,
for
example,
to
be
close
to
the
rest
of
their
family
to
their
parents
and
if
you're,
truly
remote
company
or
the
executive
team
is
truly
remote.
You
have
a
very
unique
proposition
to
them.
Yeah.
C
Absolutely
and
then
now,
let's
dive
in
the
other
direction
said
we
talked
about
the
benefits
and
hiring
great
people
and
allowing
them
to
live
wherever
they
want
to
live.
It's
clear,
amazing
benefit,
especially
with
the
fangs
you
know,
throat
using
cash
as
a
war
chest
to
make
it
basically
impossible
to
hire
a
good
talent
in
the
Bay
Area
for
a
small
start-up
that
campaign
millions
of
dollars
and
but
what
about
the
con?
What
what?
B
We
got
started,
it
was
that
investors
are
skeptics,
I,
think
that's
no
longer
the
case.
They're
there
on
the
site.
There's
the
fallacy
that
you
can
do.
Hybrid
hybrid,
is
super
hard.
So
don't
do
that
then
I
think
there's
two
things
left.
You
got
to
embrace
asynchronous
communication.
We
make
every
process
change
that
get
lab
through
a
change
in
our
handbook.
That
is
super
hard
to
enforce
every
single
day.
I
have
to
keep
reinforcing
that
throughout
the
organization.
It's
better.
But
it's
it's
an
unnatural
motion,
ace.
B
Naturally,
communication
descends
into
meetings
and
synchronous
communication,
so
you
have
to
you
have
to
keep
reinforcing
that.
The
other
thing
is
you
got
to
take
care
of
informal
communication,
you
to
formally
organized
that
if
your
remote,
it's
super
effective,
everyone
has
experienced
that
every
company
is
more
productive
remote,
especially
if
you
don't
do
it
in
the
middle
of
a
pandemic
where
people
are
super
distracted,
but
you
need
to
take
care
of
building
the
response
before
you
had
facility
managers
that
took
care
of
your
office
space
and
then
there
it
magically
happened.
It
wasn't
perfect.
B
A
B
If
you,
google,
get
live
a
formal
communication,
you'll
find
more
than
15
examples
of
how
we
do
that,
but
a
very
effective
one
is
coffee
chats
at
gala.
When
you
joined,
we
make
you
do
10,
coffee,
chats
and
afterwards
we
make
you
do
one
a
week
where
you
get
paired
with
a
random
another
random
person,
a
very
special
person,
but
you
the
match,
is
made
at
random
and
you
have
25
minutes.
You
can
spend
it.
However,
you
want,
you
can
talk
about
work.
B
B
C
C
Ahead,
a
minute
I
was
gonna,
ask
and
we've
seen
that
list,
it's
a
fantastic
list
and
we're
gonna
link
all
these
these
Docs
as
well.
So
ever
all
viewers
will
be
able
to
see
this
but
I'm
curious
to
know
now
that
you
have
so
much
experience
with
creating
connection
on
a
tactical
level
between
team
members.
What
conclusions
are
you
coming
to
about
the
theory
of
what
creates
connection
among
humans,
so
on
a
broad-based
level?
What
is
it
is
it
that
we
do
projects
together?
Is
that
we,
you
know?
C
B
A
big
question
but
I
think
that
it's
best
that
they
reinforce
one
any
on
each
other,
some
of
the
most
lasting
bonds
I
made
were
doing
Y
Combinator,
some
of
the
most
lasting
ones
people
have
is
when
they
went
to
a
period
of
great
stress
like
in
the
military,
so
I
think
that
work
and
social
can
reinforce
each
other.
But
it's
important
that
you
have
both
types
of
conversations.
B
If
you
have
the
word
conversation
and
that
you
have
get
to
know
the
person
behind
it,
the
better,
we
know
the
person
behind
our
work,
the
more
sympathy.
What
will
feel
so,
for
example,
we
every
week
we
do
team
socials
we're
just
50
minutes.
It's
not
gonna,
be
about
the
work,
it's
just
about
getting
to
know
each
other
on
a
different
level,
and
some
people
have
a
drink
with
it.
It's
it's
something
you
can
do,
but
remote
there's
less.
The
time
is
so
efficient
and
organized.
B
When
we're
out
of
point
it's
in
a
meeting,
we
end
the
meeting
right
there
and
then,
even
if
it's
one
for
it
in
so
it's
important
to
explicitly
a
lot
time
to
be
social
things
and
like
it's
weird,
to
have
a
Google
Calendar
appointment
for
an
informal
chat
because
what
it
works
and
because
it's
there
it
happens
and
nothing
is
planned
over.
It
are.
B
D
So
that
spawned
out
of
lots
of
get
get
lot
of
team
members
have
kids
at
home
now
during
the
pandemic,
and
we
have
a
parenting
channel
where
we
converse
about
hey.
How
do
you
become
a
homeschool
teacher
essentially,
and
so
we
have
parents
helping
each
other
out
and
it
kind
of
collectively
dawned
on
us
that
if
we
have
spare
blocks
of
time
in
our
calendar,
we
all
have
zoom
cameras.
We
all
have
kids
running
around
that
want
to
be
with
other
kids.
Let's
just
turn
our
cameras
on.
D
So
we
started
this
calendar
where
the
parents
can
sync
up,
they
open
up
their
zoom
cams.
They
invite
their
kids
together,
they
can
sing
dance,
show
off
toys.
So
now
you
have
kids
that
are
in
isolation,
but
they're
actually
getting
cultural
exploration
across
six
continents,
which
they
probably
couldn't
even
get.
If
they
were
in
school
and
so
juice
box.
Chats
is
the
kids
version
of
the
coffee
chat,
fantastic.
C
So
let
lets
then,
let's
zoom
out
a
second
and
and
come
to
a
sort
of
a
higher
level.
Overall,
because
said
about
a
month
ago,
you
put
out
a
tweet
thread
which
basically
called
the
alarm
to
the
world:
hey
something
really
bad
is
about
to
happen,
and
I'm
gonna
be
the
first
to
warn
you
and
I
think
you're,
absolutely
right
and
I
think
you're
the
one
ringing
this
Bell
the
loudest.
So
so,
let's
dig
into
it,
and
that
is
the
danger
of
hybrid.
C
That
sort
of
the
world
has
now
been
forced
into
remote,
but
everyone's
eager
to
get
back,
but
they
won't
really
be
allowed
to
so
they're
gonna
go
back
in
a
hybrid
version
and
they're
all
gonna
have
your
prediction
is
they're.
All
gonna
have
really
bad
experiences
with
that
and
they're
gonna
blame
it
on
remote,
but
actually
the
blame
will
be
on
the
hybrid
and.
B
B
B
Somehow
all
the
CEOs
of
these
companies
are
deciding
this
was
great,
but
we're
going
to
get
back
to
the
office
and
I
have
no
clue.
Why
is
it
a
sunk
cost
fallacy
because
of
the
lease?
Is
it
because
they
liked
the
what
it
affords
them,
the
feeling
of
walking
into
them
the
building
they
built,
the
people
that
work
for
them
I,
don't
think
they're
that
vain
most
people
are
pretty
pretty
pretty
rational,
but
I
don't
get
it.
B
So
the
only
conclusion
I
can
come
to
is
that
they
think
they
need
more
informal
communication
and
I
bet
they
do
I
bet
they
didn't
organize
the
informal
communication
and
they
should,
but
the
tactic
they
are
choosing
of
reopening
their
office
is
the
wrong
one.
For
a
very
long
time.
People
will
not
go
back
into
the
office,
not
all
of
them.
Some
people
will
some
people
won't.
B
Those
people
at
the
office
will
have
an
advantage
yeah
and
the
people
remote
will
feel
left
out
and
they're
good.
The
most
talented
people
and
the
most
ambitious
people
will
leave.
They
will
leave
for
all
remote
companies,
so
this
is
going
to
be
great
for
gitlab,
but
I
want
to
warn
the
world
because
we're
not
hiring
a
couple
of
million
people,
so
we're
going
to
do
fine
anyway,
but
please,
your
best
remote
people
are
gonna.
B
A
Be
in
a
more
introverted
CEO
actually
like
working
to
resume,
but
I
have
the
opposite
problem.
Where
contingent
of
my
company
and
telling
me
they
will
quit.
If
we
don't
go
back
to
the
office,
maybe
we
just
haven't
organized
the
remote
activities.
Well
enough,
the
social
activities,
or
maybe
because
of
the
way
the
gitlab
is
founded
and
it's
always
been
remotely.
Maybe
you
actually
optimize
for
people
who
really
like
being
remote
and
we
it's
just
like
a
fundamental
human
characteristic,
and
you
can't
change
that.
Yeah.
B
B
Never
so
they
have
a
great
office
culture
at
hacker,
one
I
caught
up
with
her
recently
like
hey,
you
feel
excited
about
the
office
opening
back
up
and
says
no
I,
don't
care
it
doesn't
have
to
open
back
up
I'm
like
what
changed
you
were
so
adamant
like
I'm,
never
gonna
work
all
remote,
it's
like
yeah,
but
I
can
go
now
and
get
boba
tea
with
my
colleagues
every
every
day
we
feel
like
it.
We
do
that
plus
we
do
Wednesday's
off
because
we're
more
effective
anyway
and
I
get
to
meet
up
with
people.
B
It's
about
organizing
the
informal
communication
your
people
are
hurting
because
you
didn't
organize
that
people
are
not
just
work
or
business
business,
business
you're,
employing
humans.
They
need
that
informal
communication
and
they're
quitting,
if
you
don't
give
it
to
them,
but
you
don't
have
to
open
up
the
office
to
do
that.
Opening
up
the
office
well
put
their
health
at
risk.
Don't
do
that
organizing
formal
communication.
C
But
let's
get
very
tactical
now
that
you,
the
social,
the
15
suggestions,
you
have
we're
sort
of
company
level.
Let's
now
talk
team
level
which
likely
are
no
different
at
all,
but
to
the
CEOs
out
there
is
say
my
executive
team
is
fraying.
What
would
you
have
them
do?
First.
The
very
first
thing
you,
okay.
B
I,
don't
have
a
lot
of
suggestions.
Good
I
still
have
to
download
pictures
from
this
drone
because
I
was
in
holiday
last
week
and
we
had
a
pool
and
I
heard.
One
of
my
reports
say:
hey
I
really
miss
having
a
pool
and
her
kid
misses
it.
So
I
invited
him
over
I
had
a
great
day,
and
this
drone
might
have
chopped
a
few
flowers
of
our
air
B&B.
But
this
is
going
to
be
public.
Sorry
about
that.
B
We
leave
you
with
a
great
time.
So
that's
that's
cool,
like
you.
Don't
have
to
have
an
office
to
to
have
that
hanging
out
time
together.
In
fact,
the
office
is
not
super
conducive
because
that's
the
place
for
business
like
don't
don't
do
it
where
there's
business
and
as
executives,
we
do
offsites
every
quarter,
they're
great
and
we
can't
wait
until
they're
in
person
again,
because
it's
not
it's
not
the
same
being
remote,
but
you
don't
need
to
do
that
every
day.
B
A
C
I
was
gonna
I'm,
just
gonna
bring
it
back
to
you.
Alex
then
have
to
come
back
to
you,
because
I
think
this
debate
right
here.
If
Sid
can
convince
Alex
right
now
to
stay
all
remote.
Something
really
has
happened
because
you're
never
gonna
get
alive,
I
mean
Alex.
You
are
the
poster
child,
for
you
want
to
go
back.
I
I.
A
Personally,
yeah
I
want
I
want
to
go
back,
but
every
month
that
I'm
remote
I'm
a
little
bit
more
obliged
to
actually
stay
fully
remote
because
I
think
we're
really
proving
to
ourselves.
That
is
possible.
It's
maybe
like
there's
investors
who
are
skeptical
of
the
of
the
thing
initially
with
gitlab,
but
over
time
you
know
when
you
actually
show
the
companies
walking-
and
you
know.
B
There's
a
mess
they
went
from
I,
don't
like
this
promise,
you'll
change
it
as
soon
as
it
stops
working
I.
Now
like
he
said.
What
do
you
think
about
me
starting
a
fund
because
we
found
that
your
costs
are
way
lower?
Plus
you
have
like
eighty-eight
percent
year
over
year
retention,
plus
you
get
better
talent
than
any
company
we
know.
So
we
think
this
Remo
fee
is
just
a
way
to
make
companies
work.
B
D
And
Alex
you're,
probably
not
taking
full
advantage
of
remote
you're,
simply
working
at
home
in
the
home
that
you
have,
because
it
is
convenient
for
your
colocation,
but
imagine
if
that
doesn't
have
to
exist
now,
if
the
entire
world,
you
could
just
spend
the
globe
and
say
where
do
I
want
to
be?
Where
do
I
want?
What
do
I
want
my
life
to
look
like
now,
you're,
actually
taking
advantage
of
remote?
It's
not
it's
not
very
fun
to
just
work
from
home
in
a
very
expensive
place
where
you
can
see
the
office
yeah.
A
A
Is
a
great
point
yeah,
you
know
one
of
the
things
that
we
did
really
well
was
we
did
our
qq1
planning
and
keeps
you
planning
or
remote,
and
we
had
like
a
remote
conference
almost
and
I'm
wondering
if
this
is
the
way
that
you
run
things
as
well.
Do
you
run
events
like
every
now
and
again,
maybe
you're
planning
week
is
kind
of
like
a
conference.
That's
completely
remote
yeah.
B
We
did
a
virtual
contribute,
so
we
come
together
as
the
whole
company
once
a
year
in
a
beautiful
location,
and
we
can
do
that.
So
we
did
it
virtually.
It
was
only
a
single
day.
It
was
really
fun.
We
did
a
ton
of
breakout
groups,
we
can
enforce
speed
dating,
as
in
like
meeting
people
for
five
minutes,
so
that
was
really
fun.
Our
planning,
a
lot
of
that
is,
is
the
normally
we
do
it
at
an
off-site.
We
have
dinner
together.
We
there's
there's
time
to
hang
out.
We
did
an
escape
room
last
time.
B
You
know
the
drill
this
time,
we're
like
okay,
what
we're
going
to
do
half
days,
because
a
full
day
on
behind
the
camera
is
too
much,
but
we
get.
We've
got
us
as
much
done
as
as
otherwise
just
having
a
Google
Doc
on
the
side
and
everything
else.
We
got
the
same
stuff
done,
but
we
we
didn't
explicitly
make
time
for
the
softer
things
we
should
have
done
there
like.
C
So
let
me
I'm
still
gonna
come
back
to
seeing
if
we
can
convince
Alex
to
commit
to
going
all
remote
by
the
end
of
this
call.
But
let's,
let's
go
through
some
of
the
other
fears
that
that
exist
out
there,
which
again
you
addressed
in
this
tweet
thread,
and
so
the
next
one
is
collaboration.
I've
heard
this
a
lot.
People
like
you,
know,
creative
work,
it
just
needs
to
be
done
in
person
and
that's
just
you
know.
C
B
Thanks
for
thanks
for
asking
so
I
think
whiteboards
are
great
for
two
things:
they're
great
for
drawing
arrows
to
connect
to
items
it's
harder
in
a
Google,
Doc
and
they're
great
for
grouping
stuff
with
circles.
That's
much
harder
in
a
doc.
However,
with
a
Google
Doc,
you
have
15
advantages
compared
to
that
everyone
can
write,
not
just
mostly
senior
person
who's
in
front
of
the
room
with
the
marker.
B
Multiple
people
can
write.
At
the
same
time,
we
had
a
sales,
trainee
and
I
went
for
twice
as
fast.
Why?
Because
the
person
with
the
market
was
in
the
bottleneck
when
he
said
everyone
put
down
an
idea
boom,
you
had
15
cursors.
At
the
same
time,
you
had
15
ideas.
You
can
see
in
real
time
where
everyone
is
looking.
If
I
have
a
roomful
of
people,
I,
don't
know
where
they're
looking
on
the
whiteboard
here
I
can
speed
a
cursor.
B
Comments
that
are
like
time-stamped,
like
you
can
you
can
see
who
did
what?
At
what
time
at
a
whiteboard,
you
don't
see
that
you
can
change
the
hierarchy
with
indentation
change
it
back
and
forth.
You
can
copy/paste
stuff,
you
don't
run
out
of
space.
It
doesn't
need
to
be
deleted
after
the
meeting
it
can
be
iterated
on
prior
to
the
meeting
like
you
can
prep
and
already
have
an
outline
there.
It's
the
agenda
transforms
into
the
notes
during
the
meeting
up
front.
B
It's
the
agenda
and
you
add
to
it
it's
much
more
readable
than
behind
the
writing.
Sometimes
is
you
can
use
URLs?
You
can
use
the
internet,
we
invented
hypertext,
it's
great,
you
can
dump
it
you're
on
the
Google
Doc
I
challenge
you
to
go,
click
a
whiteboard.
It
doesn't
do
anything,
you
can
add
screenshots
you
can
embed
stuff
and
that
Google
Doc
becomes
an
artifact.
It
can
be
shared
much
more
easily.
Then
I
sometimes
went
home
from
stuff
and
you
get
a
big
roll
of
paper
with
everything
you've
wrote
down,
nothing
happens
to
those.
B
A
A
B
My
dream,
yeah
I,
think
as
a
remote
company,
you
can
be
synchronous,
some
people
love
talking.
It
tends
to
be
synchronous.
They
tend
to
not
set
send
what
whatsapp
voice
messages
or
Twitter
voice
mister
you
soon,
so
that
can
work
as
long
as
you're,
not
across
multiple
time
zones
like
there's
a
whole
difference
between
remote
in
the
same
time
zone
and
all
remote
worldwide,
and
that's
it
that's
a
big
jump
and
we
solved
a
ton
of
stuff
at
get
lab,
but
we
didn't
solve
time
zones
if
you
want
to.
B
If
you
want
to
solve
time
zones,
you
need
to
go
asynchronous
and
then
it's
writing
instead
of
talking
so
for
those
people.
As
long
as
you
keep
the
same
hours,
no
think
there's
a
problem.
Okay,
just
if,
like
talking
more
to
go
hop
on
a
zoom
call
by
the
way
they
have
some
transcript
write
it
down.
Some,
you
actually
get
some
materials
produced,
yeah.
A
C
B
Happen
for
sure
there
is,
and
naturally
it's
hard
to
keep
it
into
a
synchronous
communication
which,
for
example,
get
out
of
it
as
soon
as
it's
not
functional.
So
if
you
go
back
and
forth
with
for
colleague
like
two
times,
how
can
I
call
together
because
that's
way
more
efficient
than
going
back
and
forth
in
chat,
so
we
really
stimulate
to
jump
to
synchronous
as
soon
as
the
asynchronous
becomes
tedious,
mm-hm.
C
Makes
sense
and
then
let's
keep
going
again
through
this
Twitter
thread
that
you
had
and
all
the
points
that
you're
bringing
up
there
so
I'm,
just
I'm
gonna
jump
around
a
little
bit
but
I'll
sort
of
grab
on
what
I
think
are
the
biggest
ones
first
and
we've
already
gone
through
a
few
of
them.
But
the
next
is
is
that
people
fear
that
an
Alex
just
just
said
it?
C
He
said:
listen
they're,
a
bunch
of
my
people
who
I,
love
and
I
want
to
continue
to
be
with,
and
they
said
that
they
need
to
go
back
in
person.
So
he
doesn't
give
them
that
option
they're
leaving
the
company.
But
you
say
the
opposite
of
that
side,
which
is
watch
out
Alex,
because
if
you
go
back
in
hybrid
the
people
who
now
are
really
productive
remotely,
they
will
leave
the
company
for
the
all
remote
because
they
will
realize
that
the
path
to
success
is
their
be
disadvantaged
in
a
company.
C
B
But
people
need
to
social
bonds
and
if
you
didn't
organize
informal
communication,
the
past
couple
of
months
have
been
aware
on
those
bonds
and
people
no
longer
feel
connected,
and
they
want
that
connectivity
back.
They
don't
want
to
go
back
to
the
office.
They
want
to
go
back
to
informal
communication
with
each
other,
so
they
can
restore
these
bonds.
So
it's
a
translation
problem
of
the
office
stood
for
informal
communication.
That's
what
that's
the
it's!
B
That's
what
they
need
and
if
you
can
provide
it
in
a
different
way,
it
will
very
likely
work
out
for
the
majority
of
those
people
based
on
my
sample
size
of
just
my
wife
and
then
yeah
the
hybrid
thing.
It's
so
tempting,
and
you
see
every
CEO
in
the
world
giving
in
to
it
and
I.
Think
it's
gonna
be
a
really
big
problem.
B
I've,
not
seen
great
hybrid
companies,
I've
seen
great
remote
companies,
I've
seen
great
co-located
companies
I've
not
seen
a
great
hybrid
company,
but
we're
gonna
see
there's
some
very
smart
founders
like
the
founders
of
Spotify.
That
say:
hey
we're!
No
longer
gonna
have
conference
rooms,
it's
going
to
be
single
person
rooms,
because
if
you
are
hopping
on
a
conference,
you're
gonna
each
dial
in
individually,
so
everyone
has
a
cursor.
Everyone
has
a
webcam,
everyone
has
audio
and
the
people
being
remote
can
see
the
faces
of
the
people
in
the
meeting.
B
D
There's
only
two
places
to
work
at
home
or
the
office
and
get
lab
will
reimburse
you
if
you
need
to
go
to
a
co-working
space
or
an
external
office,
because
we
know
that
not
every
home
is
amenable
to
remote.
I,
don't
think
enough!
Leaders
are
thinking
about
that.
There
are
other
options
other
than
the
two
and
many
people
that
quote-unquote
can't
wait
to
get
back
to
the
office.
I
said,
as
it
said,
really,
they
just
can't
wait
to
get
out
of
whatever
situation
they're
in
in
quarantine,
which
you
can't
really
fault
them
for
that's.
C
Right,
that's
right,
but
again
Sid.
You
pointed
out
the
ways
to
make
people
feel
comfortable
with
remote
by
creating
that
informal
communication.
But
the
angle
I
was
going
down.
Was
that
watch
out?
If
you
come
back
to
hybrid
and
you
have
in
the
leaders
or
in
the
headquarters
and
then
the
leaders
do
not
are
not
careful
about
doing
what
Spotify
is
doing
and
so
that
the
communications
become
informal
within
the
office
relationships
get
built
within
the
office
people
get
promoted
with
who
are
physically
in
the
office.
C
C
Why
am
I
in
this
company
that
isn't
valuing
me
fully
I'm
gonna
go
to
a
place
that
will
value
me
fully,
and
so
alex
is
talking
about
the
fear
of
losing
the
people
who
need
to
be
in
person
but
you're,
pointing
out
where
the,
where
the
fierce
really
should
be
about
losing
these
incredibly
productive
people
who
are
remote
exactly
okay.
Is
there
anything
I
missed
there
because
I
don't
want
I.
B
It's
spot-on
and
it's
it's
and
it's
gonna,
it's
not
gonna,
take
them
a
long
while
to
figure
it
out,
it's
gonna
they're
going
to
be
very
reluctant
to
change
dogs.
So
that's
a
long
incubation
time,
but
you
don't
have
to
be
not
invited
to
a
meeting
or
sorry
I
forgot
to
tell
you
that
we
decided
it
in
the
hallway
conversation
that
doesn't
have
to
happen.
That
often-
and
you
know-
and
then
it
can
still
take
years
before
they
actually
leave.
But
then
lo
really
really
fast
and
it's
hard
I
run
an
old
remote
company.
B
It's
super
hard
to
reinforce
we're
working
handbook.
First,
it's
super
hard
to
reinforce
the
informal
communication.
I
could
not
run
a
hybrid
company.
Now,
there's
better
leaders
out
there
than
me,
but
I
think
it's
an
order
of
magnitude
harder.
It's
not
like.
Oh,
you
need
to
do
two
things.
No,
you
need
to
do
two
things
that
conflict
I,
think
it's
impossible
and.
C
You
mentioned
this
before
said:
you
mentioned
that
you
still
at
gitlab
have
to
continually
reinforce
this
asynchronous
communication,
putting
it
in
the
manual.
So
what's
what
specifically?
Do
you
mean
by
that?
What
what's
an
example
of
a
communication
that
people
do
not
the
way
you
want
them
to,
and
you
have
to
remind
them
to
do
it?
The
clearly
today.
B
One
team
said:
okay,
we
need
a
knowledge
management
tool.
Our
handbook
is
the
best
knowledge
management
tool
that
of
any
company
I've,
never
seen
a
more
comprehensive
knowledge
management
tool
than
our
handbook.
It's
they're
not
familiar
with
the
tools
it's
tedious,
so
they
want
something
simpler
and
I
can't
blame
them
there
right.
So
it's
super
hard
to
reinforce
that
and
we
have
a
whole
section
about
why
wikis
are
probably
not
gonna
skill.
To
be
your
and
to
be
your
handbook
to
dating
a
leader
showed
me
like
the
plan,
his
department.
B
It
was
these
sections
organized
by
that
and
he
immediately
shows
it
as
I
are
I'm
gonna?
Add
it
to
the
handbook:
it's
not
how
we
we
work,
we
work
handbook.
First,
you
make
it
in
the
handbook
the
proposal
in
the
handbook
from
the
start,
but
it
was
harder
to
do
that.
It
didn't
present
as
well.
The
graphs
are
not
as
nice.
It's
super
super
super
hard.
It's
not
intuitive,
we've
also
signaled.
Recently,
hey.
We
have
too
many
meetings.
We
start
defaulting
back
to
meetings
to
educate
people
instead
of
me
having
meetings
to
review
proposals
very.
C
Very
hard
and
to
sit
on
that
example
of
your
your
direct
report
before
you
wanted
him
to
put
it
in
the
handbook
first,
something
that
he
wanted
to
show
to
you.
This
basically
get
your
approval.
You
want
him
to
put
the
handbook
first,
so
everybody
could
see
it
and
is
that
so
you
could
get
feedback
from
the
entire
company
in
the
entire
world
about
it
before
you
even
had
to
make
a
decision
about
it.
It's
it's.
B
Not
about
me
versus
other
people,
it's
about,
he
put
it
in
a
sheet
a
Google
sheet
instead
of
in
the
handbook.
That
means
it's
disconnected
from
everything
else.
That's
happening
in
that
department.
It
means
that
he
didn't
think
he
didn't
think
through
everything
that
was
going
on
and
the
department
no
he's
the
leader
of
the
departments.
He
probably
fought
through
it,
but
it
also
means
I,
look
at
their
handbook
and
it's
hopelessly
out
of
date,
because
guess
what
after
he's
taking
the
decision?
How
much
motivation
is
there
going
to
be
to
attitude
a
handbook?
B
There's
not
so
the
handbook
becomes
the
documentation
place.
Oh
yeah
I'll
document
it
later
like.
If
you
want
to
get
in
trouble
at
get
lap,
tell
tell
me
refer
to
the
handbook
as
documentation,
because
it's
not
documentation,
it
is
what
we
do,
and
otherwise
every
single
company
I've
known
outside
of
geared
up
the
handbook
is
out
of
date
and
the
one
look.
No
one
looks
there.
So
the
only
way
to
drive
it
is
to
work
handbook.
First,
who's.
B
C
A
B
And
we
make
software
so
we
know
how
that
neurons
humans
are
like
the
best
interpreters
in
the
world.
You
can
just
give
them
English,
prose
and
they'll
be
able
to
do
that,
they're
even
smarter.
They
sometimes
don't
listen
to
the
prose
and
do
something
else
and
99%
of
the
time.
That's
great.
So
it's
even
better
so.
C
B
B
B
Think
that's
we're
very
transparent
about
how
what
our
compensation
philosophy
is.
You
go
to
any
of
our
job
to
over
dog
families.
You
can
see
exactly
what
the
ranges
are.
We
will
reward
you
at.
However,
you
cannot
find
out
what
Darin
earns,
because
we
don't
want
you
if
you're
in
get
lab
to
be
obsessed,
but
rather
get
Darren
got
a
great
performance
review
or
bad
performance
review,
that's
between
Darren
and
his
manager
right.
B
Just
look
if
it's
it's
tough
enough
receiving
negative
feedback
having
all
your
peer,
so
so
take
notice.
If
that
doesn't
improve,
doesn't
doesn't
set
you
up
for
success
in
overcoming
in
yeah.
Thank
you.
Certainly
all
the
rest
of
the
people.
You
are
you
really
doing
that
bad
they're
just
parroting
the
manager.
It's.
A
C
D
A
C
B
More
than
four
hundred
100
plus
job
families
from
one
and
two
hundred
regions
in
the
world,
you
can
find
out
what
you're
gonna
earn.
We
do
adjust
for
region
and
I.
Think
the
vast
majorities
of
companies
will
do
this
because
it
makes
sense
you
don't
want
to
pay
to
cost-of-living.
You
don't
want
to
give
everyone
exactly
the
same.
You
want
to
pay
market
rate.
The
market
is
the
best
mechanism
for
determining
what
someone
will
earn.
B
If
you
pay
on
the
top
end
of
the
market,
you
will
find
that
all
your
hires
happen
in
low-cost
regions
and
they
will
never
leave
even
if
I
they
are
dissatisfied
with
the
company
plus,
you
could
have
higher
twice
as
many
people
and
get
twice
as
much
stuff
done.
If
you
pay
at
the
bottom
of
the
market,
you
also
find
only
people
in
low-cost
regions,
but
that's
another
stand.
C
A
Unfortunately,
I
just
coming,
you
knew
that's
from
decisions
like
that.
I
would
think
I
would
have
a
revolt,
but
if
anything,
this
conversation
has
proven
to
me
is
that,
yes,
it
is
possible
to
run
a
remote
company
and
solve
the
learning
this
problem,
which
is
I,
think
for
me
that
the
the
biggest
problem
with
remote
and
and
it's
good
it's
great-
to
see
that
there
are
some
technical
things
that
you
can
do
to
solve.
That
problem.
B
What
is
the
best
way
to
find
all
these
technical
ways
and
to
to
have
a
conversation
with
my
team,
and
the
answer
to
that
is
you
go
you
Google
get
lap
ebook
and
you
find
our
remote
ebook
with
50
pages
of
really
the
condensed
information
that
that
we're
trying
to
that
we
think
is
essential
to
taking
care
of
creating
connection
and
not
having
this
loneliness.
While
we
are
we're
working,
remote,
Oh,
fantastic.
C
D
Think
it's
great
that
we're
having
this
conversation
I
feel
like
the
pandemic
is
unfortunate.
One
of
the
effects
of
it
is
that
it's
accelerated
a
global
embrace
of
remote
by
at
least
10
years,
I
mean
isn't
democratize.
The
conversation
around
it
I
think
it's
huge
for
inclusivity.
People
now
can
go
into
a
job
interview
and
just
ask:
what's
your
stance
on
workplace
flexibility?
What
does
remote
look
like?
Is
it
just
allowed?
Is
it
supported?
What
does
that?
D
Look
like
that's
transformational,
for
working
parents
for
caregivers
from
military
spouses,
for
people
that
have
been
ostracized,
that's
huge!
It
opens
up
opportunity
in
a
huge
way,
so
I
think
the
second
and
third
order.
Effects
of
this
are
gonna
be
way
way
more
impactful
for
generations
to
come.
Agree
with.
C
Them
thank
you
so
much
and
then
one
little
tiny
thing
before
we
thank
you
and
wrap
up.
Is
people
are
now
gonna,
go
on
droves
and
look
at
the
remote
hand
book,
but
they
are
gonna,
have
questions
and
what's
the
most
effective
way
for
them
to
get
those
questions
answered
and
and
who
should
they
reach
out
to
in
how
should
they
reach
out
and
don't
make
any
commitments
that
you,
you
know,
aren't
doing
already.
D
I
guess
you
can
reach
out
to
us
the
get
loud
Twitter
handle
or
you
follow
me.
Dara
Murph,
on
LinkedIn
or
Twitter
and
I'll
do
the
best
I.
Can
the
inbounds
have
been
completely
manic
since
Kovac
began,
but
I'm
growing
as
hard
as
I
can
so
I
wanna
I
want
to
hear
the
questions
it
helps
make
our
handbook
better.