GitLab Planning Object Convergence Sessions, 27 May 2021

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From YouTube: Plan Team Planning Objects Design Sync 2021 05 27

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A

Here we go okay, but yeah. I don't know if we want to, for the final haul towards 14 1 set up either some smaller deliverables like smaller chunks or things or like how? How do you think, and we should also loop in holly just how we might structure this going forward so that we have something to show engineering.

B

A

No I'd be down.

B

I feel like that, that's what I was trying to do and then we kind of went big instead, but I would like I'm totally down to get like um what do. We need for mvc, like kind of stricter requirements, and that doesn't mean we can't keep thinking big but um just to scope it to what we need immediately kind of thing.

A

I think we should make sure that we capture what we did in the think big as well, so that's not lost and whether it needs more iteration like some of the like the left right views and holly could get involved with that. But that should still spin off some work product so that we make sure.

B

A

We do follow that line and like keep going on the best way to use an issue.

C

Yeah there's two there's two concerns like: I think big stuff is sort of necessary for when front end starts refactoring things to using view apollo, and if there are big structural changes. If not, then it's not a big of a deal and then the like. What is the mvc is important for back end to define the architecture that makes sense.

A

Yeah- and there was some differing opinion between- I should have mark on these meetings as well, but, um like mark, wanted back end to define it and then design follow back end and we're going the other way around. Where we're trying to have ux, define it the relationships and what they need to be, and then they would write the spec to that. But there'll be some definite overlap between that in terms of what's possible.

A

Because who defines? Who defines what we're going to actually implement.

B

Everyone, I guess it's a trade-off. I guess, if it's not possible, we figure out why and push back if we want to just you.

A

Know as much as we can.

A

So why don't we summarize not today, but, like summarize, the think big at where it's at for project planning, so they have like those things are sort of. We know what to look at once. We start looking at the ems and then do we want to present some of that. Maybe holly could share it in the kickoff.

A

Some of what she's thinking.

B

And do we kind of like finalize those I mean? Are we going to be validating the ideas or are we just kind of like going with ideas.

A

I was hoping we'd be validating throughout this, but I don't know if we have been.

C

I'm not building anything till consolidated.

A

B

Yeah, I agree I just I I don't know if we like yeah, that makes sense. I.

A

Think it's gonna accept that, so how do we validate? That's? Probably the next question on the think, big ideas and maybe that can take its own track.

A

I don't really want to confuse the team too much if we don't aren't building like commenting now and we're focusing on the hierarchy. Maybe we shouldn't present it in the engineering kickoff, but I don't.

B

I don't know how you're kind of wary of presenting things yeah they're, not validated right like if we don't.

C

B

C

Well, I think, there's there's the the constraints on this originally is, let's think big, but we're not gonna build uh any new features for the refactor so like if we need to basically like what I was asking for is like, let's think big, but then, let's think about, if we need to restructure the way that the issue view is laid out with the existing things start with that right and that's- and so I think part of what holly is doing is thinking big so that if we do need to restructure what we have now without building anything new, it makes sense.

C

I think that's what she should present is like here's. What you can do on the issue today and here's what we want it to look like. Basically, it's it's more of like doing a a restar uh information architecture. Restructure then.

A

C

A

C

At this point,.

A

We didn't really even get into the should it be center aligned like a modal, should it always be in a sidebar there's still a lot of open questions that aren't validated about that new view.

C

A

C

It if it makes sense since alexis is uh here as well, if like holly, can keep iterating on that and we can like put together validation, tests and experiments and stuff like that, and then alexis could drive the relationship stuff and like because that's super complicated of itself and then, like. I see the two being able to to meet up pretty well by the end of this. If we want to take that approach too,.

A

Does that work for you alexis so.

B

We would separately work on each thing.

A

In a parallel path, you'd work on relationships and like how are those going to look in the new um issued view and she will figure out and validate things like? Should it be in the sidebar? Should it be centered modal?

A

How should the top title? Look like the thing she was saying like you could click on it to edit. She had some cool ideas about that. I'm sure you've also got ideas on that too, but we were kind of like doing the same thing for a while there, both designers and I know at the start, you would propose this kind of like two diverted, like parallel paths, that would come together, but.

B

Yeah, I think the intention was we'd come up with a bunch of ideas and then like validate them. But it's you know, deadlines right, yeah,.

A

Yeah, do you have any uh that you've done over this time that you would still like time to validate.

A

Or, would you like to just switch on to relationships and validating that.

B

Well, I'm out of office next week, so it makes a little hard.

A

B

When I'm back, I could um go over a few things. I guess that's like the nature of it's difficult, like pairing on things like this, um but I probably will just because it's important to me to validate some of these ideas and then I can focus more deeply on relationships. If that makes sense,.

A

So when you're back after the first, I guess it looks like.

B

I will be out of office next week. I think that's what, until the fourth or something like that.

A

Oh okay, I thought let.

B

Me check here: it's not gonna, always like try to go out of office right when some big project happens.

A

Yeah till the fourth, so the seventh of june, okay, you're back so maybe we have holly work through validating or wrapping up the big think big and coming up with the plan of what still needs to happen with this think big work, and so that would give her like a week while you're off as well. She can like think about that and really focus on that. Some of her good ideas around like editing, titles sidebars tabs.

A

Do we have things we can validate? Maybe we can get that to a more ready to go state and then, when you're back online, we'll kick into hierarchies and we'll already have had the blueprint discussion started. So there'll be some like conversations around database structure or how these things go.

A

Would that make sense yeah gabe? Does that work for you? Does that make sense overall.

C

Yeah, whatever works for me, I'm here like just, however designers want to do it really.

B

I can go over some ideas today, but they might be kind of diverging from other ideas. I don't know.

C

Okay, you're allowed to do that.

B

Very well, um I also had a question about like I guess you have this all attached already gabe, like the multi-tree tree, wanted to make sure I understand what you're intending there.

C

It's it's just like a multi-tree like the basic idea is that michigan belonged to more than one thing at the same time, so a practical example, an issue could be assigned to more than one project and it would show up in both projects or an issue could be assigned to more than one parent of the same kind, and it would show up that way, because the big challenge right now is that our hierarchies are too siloed and it doesn't allow for cross-pollination of information. So you have to pick like this happens.

C

All the time with epics like epics, get hijacked by other teams that want to also like pull up some issue or some epic that relates to their work as well right, and you can't do that. um So it's that basic idea where uh you could have more than one sort of parent that makes sense.

B

Yeah, that makes sense it's a tree. That's going across to other trees.

C

It's technically called a directed acyclical graph in engineering terms or uh yeah.

A

Higher conclusion.

C

Network uh linked lists, linked notes or linked lists.

A

It reminds me of a tagging taxonomy a little bit as well, but like with a little mars formality where you can kind of just link things in.

C

It's worth notice, noting that this uh solving this problem is the most important problem that our largest customers that want a dot plan was to solve just in the plan as a whole. So.

A

It would be so cool when this works.

B

All right cool, not.

A

Enough to go on alexis.

B

Yeah, I know that makes sense. I think that's what I was thinking, but you know how it is I'm like. I think I know what you're talking about, but I'll just check. um Let me see if I can show my screen. I really miss my monitor right now um right, um let me move the little head cool, um yeah.

A

Like a parrot or something.

B

I don't know what it is: it's just a very loud little bird but um yeah. What am I looking at here? Okay, um my brain is like blipped out this morning, but um yeah. I was kind of thinking about like more kind of real-time collaboration on these objects. Poland checks- I don't know, oh um and just starting with like the title and description like we've been talking about, and let me just try to decipher my own thoughts here but um yeah, even thinking about like what is the copy. We want to start with here.

B

So if it's like any object, do we even want to say description, for example right or is it just like start typing something like? Maybe it's not a description, so we don't want to be um yeah, so prescriptive, prescriptive yeah thank.

A

You slashes just like notion, which I love. I.

B

Know would be if you do that, yeah. If you do that so yeah you can use the slash commands or I think it's there's a few other ones that have like literal um buttons too, or we could do both so yeah. And then you can add, like this is like let's say a drop down right to add in something or whatever the slash commands are. It could.

A

Be like uploaded attachment upload, a design.

B

Anything right yeah, so this is like.

A

Insert a table yeah.

B

And then you have you know this block moves down there and then, if they click out, then it becomes more of like that um view mode versus edit mode. So, like the one thing I I looked at I'll link y'all, I did like a quick study on inline editing and it's it's good for our things, especially in the sidebar.

B

um Well, our current sidebars right that are immediate and have are like binary, but if there's too many hover states within the actual content of the page like it gets kind of pinky, so I'm trying to figure that out like do. We need it explicit, like like view versus edit um yeah.

A

It's like research, how annoying.

B

An error it would be for inline editing right did.

A

You look at tip tap as well. I don't know if you missed that from the last one but tip tap. That's it's not necessarily slash commands. I don't think it's more of a wysiwyg that supports blocks, but that's what the editor team is implementing for gfm, like.

B

Just something to check.

A

B

um Yeah, that makes sense- I I don't know I mean I would like to like get rid of the idea of like a preview versus right.

A

If we could go right into edit mode, the way notion does I would be sick. I would love it.

B

So then you just like I said you have to make sure it's still usable and mobile right, which some of that stuff is not very usable, like you know, if you're doing inline stuff- um and you want to make sure people aren't going to be like accidentally, editing or they're just trying to view the thing and like anytime, they have all this stuff is happening which could get annoying. So it's just a thing to think about. um uh I was just playing around with different ways to do this. Let me think so.

B

Instead of having just like flash command, um have like literal, like options right, adding a widget same kind of thing like either the widget can be added like it's inline experience here or it's another drop down.

B

um This is another thing that saw multiple products. Do that is kind of like makes sense. This.

C

B

Kind of the wysiwyg- and this doesn't really have to be a box. This is just low five, but like having kind of the options menu.

A

Like that plus block yeah yeah.

B

A

Who are not as like yeah are knowledge workers, um knowledge, user persona would probably hit the plus button more than wanting to use a slash right.

B

Yep, so I think, and it doesn't have to necessarily be a plus but yeah, um and so then yeah you could reorder right so even like I haven't typed anything yet, but I could still move things around um when you when it's like already added. Maybe it's a different menu right and there's like alter it, move it delete it whatever.

B

um What was I thinking here? Oh, like just kind of like a change log right, so whenever you're, maybe in that view mode, you can see the history of changes. Maybe this is like a drawer like a slide out or something you see kind of like google docs and like just anything like mural anything. um Maybe you can even see like diffs and then go into a menu and revert back to.

C

B

Old version, something like that, I was thinking about kind of different ways to display options as well. So, um instead of having like slash commands, maybe you can have different little toolbars, like literally like figma. Has it.

A

Right here, right.

B

um So when I am typing, um I have a kind of like object or widgety toolbar right, so these are from like our commenting area. That's what I took it from so these are like structural versus when I'm actually typing or let's say I've, highlighted some text.

B

Then I get the other options that are more like text, edity uh ones right and then maybe we can add things like oh comment so like if I click this comment button, it pops up a comment so, like literally like, if I was looking at your epic this morning, kristen I could highlight some text there and be like.

A

B

Add this to the draft yeah, um just thinking about like okay, what happens to the toolbar when I'm typing things like that and then when it applies thinking about what that looks like right and then is it going to be a suggestion that I can apply or should it be a comment like things like that? Or could it be both right? Maybe you add a suggestion or a comment um and then maybe adding in different options here like okay, maybe I can select the text and then assign someone to this thing.

B

Right like uh this is a task that I've written and either the task inherently has the option to assign or due dates or stuff like that or I can access it from this toolbar and say: okay, I'm assigning this to alexis here's the comment: here's the due date. I don't know why this is on everything, go away line um and then it's a sign and then who knows? Maybe it just has like the little due date thing.

B

um What was I doing here? I don't know and then thinking through that a little further. This is just different ways to kind of display it. Like what would onboarding look like you know, maybe we even have like little templates here um and then think about the idea of like I don't know what we call these like metadata, basically but like applying metadata to the entire object right. um So this is, you know.

A

Correct like if it's an like it's an epic or.

B

Something and you're saying.

A

I want to label everything in that under me. Yeah.

B

I like that idea yeah, so these, like this right, is related to planning epic a um but then, and then when I like click this like again, this is like lofa. I don't know what exactly looks like right, but maybe there's a another thing of options right and it's like. Okay, I want to add the label metadata blocker, an assignee or a due date or sound box like all those little things, and then it adds that and then you assign whatever I mean we go through that experience of course right.

B

So it's kind of like I like custom, yeah and.

A

Then um editing but better in a modal or something right.

B

One click and then I was thinking further about that, like okay, so um all these weird ideas, but anyway I'm like okay, maybe we also have an edit mode, so that was like thinking through that again I went on when edit mode is on. I could like edit any block, so let's say I'm like either hovering or I've clicked or whatever. The interaction is I'm accessing this table.

B

um Maybe there's like another kind of like toolbar option there, just edit like style this table, or maybe we take it even further and again this is going to look janky, but like this, when I'm editing one block, let's say right, I get its own little toolbar area and from here maybe like, I can add metadata to this entire work item and then I could also add metadata to this block. So let's say I select the table.

B

I get this toolbar and like maybe this is let's say this is, like the add, add metadata and again, let's name that something else section. I click that and then I can add, like a label, I can add assignees to just this block whatever it is right. So in that way I could almost like exactly what you said kristen so like. Maybe this is an epic and then like I'm, adding this, and this is actually an issue almost does that make sense.

B

Gabe you're like what I like.

C

It makes sense to me.

B

A

um Too, if we could give, this is probably out of scope for it, but like some kind of indicator that you're not consistent like three of your 20 issues in this topic having consistent labels or like some kind of like analytics on top of it. That just gives you a little pointer to bring it back into check.

A

Maybe you intended that, but like it, it could just highlight discrepancies or something a summary view like you've got 20 issues 19 or in one project. One is in another and like baby, that's right, but like you're you're, just kind of realizing just from some high level metadata you're, seeing some kind of a summary. You could open to see consistency.

B

Yeah, it makes sense um I put a time stamp, so I can look back at that, but yeah and then, like so here's the overall toolbar that toolbar. um Where again I could maybe instead of having this like this would actually should be gone like instead of having this up here. It's just like add metadata to the entire thing.

B

Add metadata to one thing add a collaborator like this is basically the sidebar right and I can turn edit mode off and then I get like view mode whatever that looks like right so like then, I see all the data. I see collaborators notifications, all that whatever um so I'm playing around with this just thinking about like what this could look like, um but.

A

I think that could be cool too. If that list switched from like is it a grid? Sorry, I should have checked. Are those like box? Each box is an issue or are they columns across a grid.

B

So this is just a table, I'm just having fun. Oh.

A

It's a table: okay, so literally yeah.

B

That makes sense, and I assign the table, who.

A

B

A crazy idea whatever um or you know, you're just adding a bunch of text blocks and then you know like it's just like its own little contained thing and then assigning that thing. So just the idea of like these blocks, I guess basically and then having those almost be the issue and then like the the object, is just like a grouping of things and it could be an issue in itself right or it can be like a collection of things.

B

um However, you want to do it, so that's like the basic idea of that and then what else is going on here, like crazy thoughts everywhere um playing around oh with breadcrumbs and stuff. I don't get into that too much. I was thinking about like the epic tree and how how that's kind of difficult to navigate and thinking about like if there's different ways to visualize it and sigma, made everything stack weird here but like thinking about doing a column view instead. Basically, so you know, I select epic two. It opens up this column right.

B

It's you know like a navigating a folder structure, basically right so instead of a tree structure, it's a column structure and then um like a.

A

Rollout menu like a massive rollout, essentially.

B

Yeah and you're just scrolling left to right, and maybe this could be sticky or not. I don't know but like.

A

B

A

That, if for my core epic, I have like one epic, which is my hq, if I could have that on a sidebar and just roll out to everything- oh my god, it would be so good. I could find.

C

There's a second there's, a comment on that: extensible, the the relationships issue they're linked. That has an interesting idea too, for showing like the hierarchy um but making it all visual. So you don't have to expand and collapse. Everything you can just like in one snapshot, see the status of like everything through your.

B

C

Caught my eye, something interesting too.

B

Let's take a look yeah, because um this one is good, but I'm just trying to think I'm like do I have it in here. uh The idea of moving things around is a little.

A

B

Harder in in a column right because, let's say I'm in epic two right now and I'm seeing epic two's entire context, basically right right now and if I wanted to let's say you know, I'm looking at the details for issue a right now. If I wanted to move issue a into epic four and then like further down into epic four, it's a little harder. So the.

A

B

So I'm thinking, like maybe it'd, be like you, click issue a and instead of drag and drop, it's like clicking like I click it. I select it and then I click and I can like click around and then there's some kind of like you know, um yeah call to action there and then maybe there's you know saying like okay confirm to move something.

A

I feel like, like the one on the far left, the column on the far left, where you kind of have the root ethics yeah like.

B

A

Want to truly move something into that, like it's, probably fine to just drop it into that, and you can deal with it later by opening it up and just seeing the detail on that one. Oh, that's cool that view.

B

A

This is what I'm thinking like so.

B

This is like the one I'm picking up right. uh This is again I'm trying to decipher my own thoughts but um yeah having some indication and then, like. You, obviously can't drop it on an issue so like indicating, like things that are not valid, to drop on stuff like that and then so. The interaction is a little different, but um could work and then thinking about other views. So you know having breadcrumbs at the top and then having like almost.

A

B

Table view here, right of all of these, the issues and contents of that specific epic, so you're like drilling into an epic or a tree, drilling into the tree here and you're, not seeing everything within the tree, but you're just like drilling down that's cool. What is the contact.

A

And then so I could go up to the third level there. If I wanted to, I could go up ahead.

B

However, yeah and the breadcrumb so and then um networking view so I was thinking like literally like these are just almost like female right like I'm like okay, I can, you know, draw dependencies between them. um Okay, here's this epic and you know you. So it's like a canvas view. You can just.

A

Move yeah canvas view, and then that would be. Maybe I.

B

Would love that.

A

Yeah, that's really cool right, please frame it. That would be a good view to have like an optional view and it could save where you put things.

B

And I don't know how far you would zoom out. That would probably be a performance nightmare, but it might be kind of interesting and then like having like options right like okay out of epic either. It would be like something like this like add item at the at the end of each area or you're, explicitly saying, like okay, add a link or add related to your ad work item.

B

You know that kind of thing or add epic, um but having some view kind of more like that, and then you can see kind of, I guess to your point gabe. Maybe if there's some items with a million little things originating out of out of them like branches and you're like okay, this this thing needs to be done like now. um Maybe they even get bigger or a different color or something I don't know.

A

Like a thousand relations, it's a blocker for a hundred other things that would be cool to see here.

B

Just have a doom to it constantly and then I a stuff- I don't know this is old. Where is it just thinking about the with our existing data? Where could things um be located like the structure of it, but I think we want to move away from this anyway. So that's! Okay, anyway,.

A

That's what I'm playing around with at the moment.

B

Boom- I don't know, but I'll keep playing around with these. um I was looking at the hierarchy stuff, the other day, which I think would be interesting to have different views within one item even and then like that's, where those tabs are right kind of like our road map, epic tree tab, like a better version of that, I guess.

A

So better bread, bread crumbs because I always see dot dot dot when I'm in an epic and I'm trying to like scope it back to the project. And I look up and it's like.

A

I don't know the bread crumbs yeah.

B

The bread is like I I was thinking- I don't know. I can't find all my ideation sometimes but like could the breadcrumbs be the parentage too right does. Should it be like epic list and then ancestor ancestor ancestor this epic um or, like, I guess, I'll share my screen, especially.

A

When we have them on groups and projects, we'd be able to do that yeah, because you could really have its line all the way back to its project or group.

B

Mm-Hmm, it could also be.

C

B

C

No, you please.

B

Oh no, I was just yeah thinking about that.

A

Although, if we have multiple.

B

A

B

I know yeah so whatever we can keep playing around with that. What were you thinking, sorry.

C

Oh, I was going to share my screen and kind of tell you at least.

B

C

For a second, I don't I didn't design anything, but um in terms of like the widgets and then like tabs or whatever on an issue. I was sort of kind of thinking about this because they're going to get more complex, like you have the design manager where you can kind of see, you can see that there's something there to interact with and then, when you click on it, it takes you to like more immersive experience, but some small examples.

C

This is like something a community contributed recently where, before we just had time tracking, it just showed you this, but now you can click on that and you can kind of go in and see more details so, like almost like, the you'd have these little widgets on the main view that would that open up into another tap or some sort of more immersive experience within the issue.

C

um That's sort of one of the things I was thinking and then the other I was just going to show real quick is uh this: is the 2.0 beta of tip tap and it sort of lets you all sort, all sorts of different things like you can have nodes that in each node can be whatever you want to be. So this is like a drawing node right within a disk within a thing, and you can also like type it underneath it or um you could have no formatting bar. You can completely customize them whatever or.

C

However you want, um and then you can also do uh see. Where is.

A

It a drawing one, although I need some kind of stylus.

C

Yeah, so this is just like this: is the text editor that you can type in right? But then it also has like this view component, which means like, if you want to have widgets that were interactive. You can put interactive with build interactive like interactivity directly into the uh editor view and have it be completely customized.

A

One thing we had in design management is a voting app built into every issue. So let's say you have three designs: you could have people vote on them. That would be a cool widget to build with buttons.

C

Yeah um and then you can also like, drag and drop stuff around, like images moving images around, and you can think about doing this like with any little widget or component or thing that is inside of the editor as well, so it kind of like intermixes typing.

C

If you want to make like the issue view just a big blank canvas that you would have different zones for typing different things. You could have like different texas areas that intermingled images you could have different like nodes of different widgets, and things like that. So I.

A

Mean the underlying technology.

C

Is going to be there to do some creative stuff? If you want.

B

Yeah, it's almost like a design like a design management node and then it has.

A

B

You create your own kind of thing,.

A

I just pinged eric schurter on that too. He didn't have any open issues for attaching comments to blocks yet, like you were mentioning before you could potentially do that, but he's making the epics for that right now.

A

So that's something they're going to do as well as try to figure out how to attach comments onto these blocks or onto the text that you select.

A

C

Be that you all are awesome.

A

All right, we'll calculate again: bye, bye, hey.