►
Description
Adrian Larssen sits down with GitLab CEO and co-founder Sid Sijbrandij, as well as GitLab Head of Remote Darren Murph, to discuss business and societal changes related to remote work in the wake of COVID-19 and the great remote work migration.
###
➞ Business Insider: How to take your company remote permanently while maintaining a positive culture and productive team, from CEOs and leaders who've done it: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-to-make-company-work-remotely-permanently
➞ All of GitLab's guide to remote work: http://allremote.info/
➞ Read the onboarding guide GitLab uses to manage its fully remote 1,200-person staff and ensure new hires thrive from day one: https://www.businessinsider.com/how-gitlab-largest-fully-remote-company-onboards-new-employees-guide
➞ GitLab's values and sub-values: https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/values/
➞ Remote work emergency plan: What to do (and where to start): https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/remote-work-emergency-plan/
➞ GitLab's approach to handbook-first documentation: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/handbook-first-documentation/
➞ What not to do when implementing remote: don't replicate the in-office experience remotely: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/what-not-to-do/
➞ How to use forcing functions to work remote-first: https://about.gitlab.com/company/culture/all-remote/how-to-work-remote-first/
➞ Gartner CFO Survey Reveals 74% Intend to Shift Some Employees to Remote Work Permanently: https://www.gartner.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/2020-04-03-gartner-cfo-surey-reveals-74-percent-of-organizations-to-shift-some-employees-to-remote-work-permanently2
B
Absolutely
and
thanks
for
being
here
so
my
question
was
you
know,
a
lot
of
companies
are
using
this
time
as
a
decision
point
like:
are
they
going
to
go
back
to
the
office
or
are
they
going
to
be
a
remote
company
from
here
on
out?
What
are
some
of
the
biggest
concerns
that
those
companies
have
and
what
are
the
biggest
questions
that
you're
getting
now
yeah.
A
I
think
the
biggest
concern
like
like
I'm
talking
mostly
about
like
startups,
with
just
only
knowledge
workers
like
obviously,
if
you
have
like
a
physical
component
like
'hey,
you
run
a
hospital
or
garage
something
like
that,
it's
different,
but
for
startups
with
a
ton
of
knowledge
workers.
What
they've
seen
is
like
wow,
even
with
a
ton
of
people
having
their
kids
at
home,
we're
still
more
productive
than
we
were
before
so
kind
of.
A
There's
the
promise
of
like
what,
if
the
schools
open
again
and
people
don't
have
to
be
so
afraid
of
their
safety
like
we,
we
know
we
can
be
more
productive
in
this
model.
So
that's
a
big
big
potential
there,
because
it's
it.
It
would
allow
everyone
in
the
company
more
flexibility
to
kind
of
work
from
where
they
want.
They
no
longer
have
to
maintain
the
office,
maybe
10%
of
their
people.
A
They
want
a
space
to
work
from,
but
it's
gonna
be
way
more
affordable
than
having
an
office
and
they
be
able
to
recruit
talent
from
many
more
locations
than
they
can
now.
So
that's
the
opportunity,
I
think
there's
what
I've
seen
is
almost
kind
of
an
instinctive
reaction
like
hey,
but
what
about
creating,
maintaining
and
enhancing
our
culture
as
a
company?
What
about
our
ability
to
lead
the
company?
What
about
the
ability
to
evaluate
performance?
A
It
might
be
for
leader
it's
it's
tougher
to
can
communicate
your
vision,
true
zoom
than
standing
in
front
of
everyone.
It's
a
different
experience,
but
there's
benefits
to
like
it's
easier
to
use,
audio
and
video.
It's
easier
to.
You
have
to
wait
for
the
mic
to
get
passed
around,
but
because
people
can
sign
up
and
chat
and
then
you
can
quickly
give
the
word
to
them
to
to
verbalize
what
they
ask
etc.
A
A
Those
tend
to
like
be
evaluated
better.
So
it's
really
working
remote
force
issue
to
focus
on
output
and
not
on
input,
because
you
can't
see
the
input
anymore
and
that's
that's
hard
like
if
you
know,
if
you've
not
done
that
for
the
last
20
years,
yeah,
it's
a
big
change,
it's
an
obvious
change,
but
obviously
it's
it's
different
and
it's
it's
more
difficult.
We
we
totally
think
it's
worth
it.
A
A
A
Last
week
we
published
the
gitlab
songbook.
We
already
had
a
bit
of
a
songbook
and
we
put
it
online
recommending
that
every
company
does
it
maybe
we're
a
bit
on
the
on
the
peculiar
side.
Maybe
but
like
it
is
important
that
you,
if
you
start
thinking
about
ok,
how
do
we
still
create
these
events,
both
virtually
and
at
some
point
post
kovat
in
person
where
we
have
travel
stipends
for
people,
we
do
local
meetups.
We
do
once
a
year,
Global
get-together,
but,
most
importantly,
how
do
we
create
these
little
moments?
A
B
It's
really
this
opportunity
for
a
culture
reset
to
think
about
the
behaviors.
You
want
to
be
happening
and
to
remedy
intentionally
instill
them
in
tactical
specific
ways
like
you
can
no
longer
let
the
culture
and
Darren
East
on
this
I
think
the
last
time
we
were
chatting
you
can't
let
the
culture
just
be
the
loudest
person
in
the
room
and
that's
impossible
to
do
when
you're
remote.
So
it's
this
chance
to
reset
and
really
rebuild
many.
C
Of
the
challenges
that
I'm
hearing
about
are
the
obvious
gaps
where
the
company
and
let
spontaneity
and
fate
lead
and
now
that
there's
the
death
of
spontaneity
and
fate.
There's
this:
oh
no.
Does
anyone
have
a
silver
bullet
other
than
being
intentional
about
this,
and
the
answer
is
no
actually
actually
not
if
you've
let
culture
just
be
defined
by
office
decor
or
the
given
personas
in
the
office,
and
now
you
don't
have.
C
You
have
to
write
that
down
your
cultures
are
going
to
be
what
values
you
document
and
then
how
those.
So
if
you
haven't
documented
that
already
that's
how
you
get
the
culture,
people
are
asking.
How
do
we
on
board
remotely?
Because
now
we
can't
physically
tag
a
person
to
a
person
and
it's
because
they
know
from
the
beginning,
they
should
have
been
documenting
the
process
and
make
it
very
prescriptive
and
articulate
on
how
do
we
expect
some
once
you
ramp
up
and
do
our
company?
No
one
ever
bothered
to
write
that
down.
A
C
But
the
truth
is
like
Sid
mentioned
earlier,
so
much
of
what
we
do
is
beneficial
in
a
co-located
setting
too.
So,
even
if
our
companies
that
plan
to
transition
back
in
some
form
or
fashion
post
kovat,
you
need
to
have
your
onboarding
documented.
You
need
to
have
your
values
to
acumen
it.
It
will
help
you
Arlis
of
the
actual
structure
of
the
company
and.
A
Documenting
your
values
is
not
just
having
having
60
words
or
something
like
that.
It's
also
including
examples
and
including
like
how
do
you
reinforce
them,
get
black.
We
have
14
ways
in
which
we
reinforce
our
values.
I've
not
met
another
company
that
has
more
than
three
ways
in
which
they
documented
they
reinforce
their
values.
Yeah.
You.
A
A
B
One
of
the
things
that
I
read
in
a
handbook
was
to
expect
bumps
along
the
way
right.
Most
companies
are
doing
this
for
the
first
time
and
if
they
are
going
to
be
remote
from
here
on
out,
it's
a
dramatic
change
in
their
in
their
culture.
How
do
you
think
leaders
can
best
sort
of
cultivate
the
mindset
that
it's
gonna
be
a
bumpy
road
and
we're
all
in
this
together
and
we're
gonna
figure
it
out.
A
Yeah,
what
we
tried
to
do
at
gitlab
is
our
iteration
value,
so
I
just
take
small
steps
and
if
you
take
small
steps
and
setbacks
are
less
of
a
problem
and
it's
easier
to
get
feedback
about,
what's
working,
what's
not
working,
because
the
setback
is
way
smaller.
If
it's
a
week
of
work,
then
Evatt
3
months
of
work,
so
if
you're
gonna
implement
these
things,
like
suppose,
pick
one
to
do.
First,
like
coffee,
Jets
and
then
pick
a
goal
like
every
single
person
in
a
company.
C
Yeah
the
thing
I'll
add
there.
Is
you
just
got
to
reiterate
that
transitioning,
a
company
from
one
environment,
to
a
wholly
new
environment,
it
has
to
be
seen
as
a
journey.
That's
not
something!
That's
just
you're
gonna
go
from
zero
to
mastery
overnight.
It's
just
not
it's
just
not
gonna
happen
and
it's
way
less
daunting
to
say
all
right.
Let's
just
get
a
little
better
at
it
next
week
and
then
get
next
week,
and
it
does
require
I.
C
Think
a
shift
in
mindset
from
managers
you'll
find
some
companies
where,
if
they've
been
primarily
led
through
they
kind
of
command
and
control,
it
will
feel
very
counter
intuitive
for
managers
to
step
back
almost
to
a
servant.
Leadership
type
mentality,
where
their
primary
goal
in
the
transition
period
is
to
accept
feedback,
to
be
a
sounding
board,
to
listen
to
listen
to
things
that
are
going
wrong.
Vpns,
don't
work
or
my
desk
is
an
ergonomic
here
or
I
need
two
monitors
to
maintain
the
productivity
that
I
had
in
the
office.
C
B
Turn
on
that
note,
we
talked
about
this
a
little
bit
last
time,
but
part
of
your
role
is
sort
of
helping
people
who
have
never
done
this
before
or
who
are
really
used
to
working
in
an
office,
environment
transition
and
sort
of
bring
them
along,
not
sure
I
mean
there
are
some
of
the
things
that
you
have
found
most
effective
with
people
who,
especially
in
this
situation,
right
who
might
be
dying
to
go
back
to
the
office
and
that's
not
going
to
be
a
thing
for
quite
some
time
ago.
Yeah.
C
I
mean
it's,
it's
worth
being
honest
about
the
fact
that
a
lot
of
people
well
pretty
much
everyone
and
get
opps
into
the
way
we
do
things.
It's
very
self-selecting.
People
come
to
get
lab
because
they
read
the
values
in
advance.
They
know
what
we're
about,
and
this
is
the
lifestyle
they
want.
So
the
issue
for
companies
that
are
transitioning
into
remote
is
what,
if
people
joined
that
company,
because
they
wanted
that
frigidity
or
because
they
wanted
that
thing
that
the
company
offered
and
now
due
to
the
world
situation,
they
fundamentally
can't
get
it.
C
You
may
run
into
some
oil
and
water
type
of
situations
there
where
people
are
just
hesitant
to
dive
into
anything
else,
because
they've
lost
something
that
they
actually
value,
even
if
it
doesn't
make
sense
to
a
remote
or
maybe
they
valued
it
for
for
one
reason
or
another.
But
the
biggest
thing
that
I've
seen
is
to
try
to
get
people
to
actually
use
and
unlock
their
imagination
and
I
know.
This
sounds
very
philosophical,
but
it's
really
not
if
you've
been
conditioned
to
just
be
ok
with
a
two
to
four
hour.
C
C
C
So
if
you've
been
conditioned
to
this,
where
you're,
literally
only
living
for
the
weekend,
you
have
to
know
yourself
to
that
to
some
degree,
because
otherwise,
that
realization
would
be
incredibly
jarring
like
this
will
spur
a
life
change
and
so
I
try
to
convey
that
to
people.
It's
like
look
remote,
isn't
just
copying
and
pasting
the
office
environment.
You
don't
necessarily
have
to
maintain
the
same
rigid
schedule
that
you
had
in
the
office.
Only
at
home
start
leaning
into
doing
things.
C
Asynchronously
start
thinking
about
what
a
nonlinear
workday
could
look
like
start
thinking
about
what
your
actual
peak
productivity
hours
are
and
figure
out.
Is
there
any
flexibility
to
shift
to
that?
What
could
you
do
in
your
day?
If
you
didn't,
do
it
exactly
the
same
way
and
that
believe
it
or
not
that's
harder
than
you
would
think
to
get
people
that
have
done
this
for
their
entire
career,
because
they're
fixated
on
look
we're
in
a
an
odd
situation
in
the
world.
There's
a
lot
going
on.
C
Maybe
they
have
kids
at
home,
they're
doubling
a
home
school
teacher?
Maybe
they
just
run
in
a
position
to
think
about
things
differently,
like
that,
but
I've
seen
when
people
are
able
to
do
that
and
collectively
as
a
team.
This
is
an
amazing
opportunity
to
get
it
done
on
a
team
level,
because
if
you
only
have
ten
percent
of
your
company,
remote
they're
always
gonna,
be
that,
like
super
quiet
minority
where
people
are
like
yeah
yeah,
whatever
like
they're
out
enjoying
a
ball
game
on
Wednesday
afternoon,
but
now
this
is
this
incredible
beta
test
work.
C
Everyone
gets
to
experience
it
together
and
I
do
think
long-term.
This
will
have
big
positive
societal
impacts
because
of
everyone
is
experiencing
it
together.
So
there's
a
new
baseline
there's,
a
new
level
of
a
relatability
overnight
promoters
have
to
explain
themselves
a
lot
less.
Now.
People
get
it
to
some
degree
because
millions
of
people
have
been
thrust
into
it
overnight.
B
A
A
A
It
is
to
have
a
hybrid
way
of
running
the
company,
because
it
seems
that
we'll
go
back
to
offices
for
the
majority,
but
that
the
officers
won't
be
at
capacity
and
not
everyone
will
or
that
officers
will
have
reduced
capacity,
because
everyone
has
a
space
and
not
everyone
will
feel
comfortable
and
probably
people
are
not
gonna
be
forced.
In
so
now,
you're
running
a
hybrid
company
and
I
yeah
raining
and
co-located
company
is
doable
running
at
a
remote
company
is
doable
but
running.
A
A
A
Think
it'd
be
better
to
kind
of
invest
in
making
remote
work
instead,
but
I
think
that's
what
will
happen
most
will
go
back
and
then
what
we
will
see
is
like
additional
allowance
for
working
from
home,
like
companies
that
were
five
days
in
the
office,
we'll
go
to
four
days
and
four
days
will
go
to
three
days
and
two
days
will
decide
like
look.
It's
not
worth
it
anymore.
We're
not
gonna
do
to
spend
so
I
think.
That's
the
transformation
more
remote
work.
Instead
of
suddenly
nobody
going
back
to
their
office,
yeah.
C
The
thing
I'll
add
there
is
I
think
the
default
work
location
will
eventually
flip.
So
for
many
people
right
now
the
default
is
the
office
and
you
need
a
special
occasion
to
work
from
home.
Like
the
cable
company
is
coming,
I
need
someone
there
to
open
the
door
and
let
them
in
but
I
think
at
the
end
of
this
it
will
flip
and
for
companies
that
have
a
lease
that
they
can't
get
out
of
or
whatever
now
they
they
can
only
have.
They
can
have
fewer
people
in
there
anyway.
C
I
think
the
default
work
location
will
be
outside
of
the
office
and
I'm
intentional
about
not
saying
home,
because
I
think
companies
to
do
this
well
will
appreciate
it.
Not
every
home
is
amenable
to
remote
works
and
they'll.
Consider
adding
things
like
expensing,
an
office
external
office
or
a
co-working
space,
or
something
like
that.
Basically,
the
default
will
be
work
from
anywhere
and
then,
if
there's
a
special
occasion
where
there's
a
large
contingent
of
potential
clients
or
something
you
need
to
Wine
and
Dine
them
in
the
office,
then.
C
Trip
out
you'll
file
to
the
office
or
whatever
and
they've
seen
this
in
some
remote
settings,
but
I
think
that'll
be
a
lot
more
acceptable,
a
lot
less
taboo
and
on
the
hybrid
front,
we've
recommended
this
before
Kovan,
but
definitely
now
I
think
one
of
the
best
ways
to
make
it
as
equitable
as
possible.
It's
never
going
to
be
perfectly
level
but
to
get
the
executive
team
out
of
the
office
for
a
meeting
amount
of
time.
I
actually
recommend
them
full
quarter.
C
I
just
get
them
out,
because
people
will
generally
follow
what
their
leaders
do
and
if
they
see
that
leadership
is
making
it
work.
They're
running
the
company
remotely
they're
implementing
remote
first
practices,
they're,
making
sure
that
those
people
who
are
outside
of
the
office
have
the
tools
and
processes
they
need
to
thrive.
C
That's
gonna
set
the
example
if,
as
soon
as
things
turn
back
around
the
executives
rush
back
to
the
office
lock
themselves
in,
but
then
say:
oh
yeah,
you
can
work
from
wherever,
but
we're
not
going
to
invest
a
lot
in
making
sure
you
have
the
tools
and
processes
to
do
it
right.
It's
gonna
be
tough.
Yeah.
B
A
Think
that
being
intentional
about,
if
you're
your
culture
and
and
building
trust
in
the
company
and
like
don't
don't
leave
it
too,
don't
leave
it
to
chance,
actually
be
intentional
about
it.
You
might
still
come
out
with
a
co-located
location
but
I
think
a
the
amount
of
intentionality
has
to
go
up
any
way
and
yet
don't
underestimate.
A
A
Out
freak
over
probably
I'd
have
one
thing
outside
of
San
Francisco
a
week
yeah
it's
actually
it's
I've
been
I've,
been
more
efficient
myself,
not
having
that
travel.
I'm,
sorry,
I,
don't
know
it's
also
like
healthier,
like
I'm
I'm,
not
travel,
I,
find
travel,
tiring
and
get
sick
and
stuff
like
that.
Do.
A
C
It's
it's
interesting
how
you
framed
it
as
a
choice
or
a
decision.
I
think
this
is
just
gonna
be
called
work
like
we're.
Gonna
drop
the
remote
pretty
soon
it's
like
you
know.
Of
course
you
got
a
piece
of
this
project
done
at
a
we
work.
Of
course
you
got
a
piece
of
it
done
at
home.
Of
course
you
got
a
piece
of
it
done
in
an
airplane,
I
mean
we've
had
Wi-Fi
at
30,000
feet
for
years.
Now,
it's
not
not
uncommon.
To
see
things
like
this
I
think.
C
The
only
thing
that
we
have
to
get
over
is
the
default
work
location.
You
know
I'm
not
going
to
the
office
on
the
default,
so
you
never
know
who
you're
gonna
see
on
a
given
day.
If
you
choose
to
go
in
that's
going
to
be,
the
toughest
transition
is
even
though
we
are
investing
in
a
piece
of
real
estate.
We
have
to
actually
optimize
our
company
for
people
outside
of
it.
I
think
that's
only
gonna!
Last
so
long
before
you,
you
say
like.
C
We
can
actually
respond
to
it,
and
this
is
an
amazing
opportunity
where
you
have
everyone
in
a
similar
state.
Companies
have
probably
wanted
to
test
the
waters
on
how
flexible
could
we
be
I'm,
a
business
continuity
standpoint?
What
could
this
look
like
now
is
the
moment
to
create
that
infrastructure
yeah.
There
will
be
some
people
that
are
slower
to
get
on
board,
but
it's
okay
like
build
it
and
they'll
come
once
they
once
they
see
the
light
on
the
additional
flexibility
and
how
much
their
life
they
get
back.
It's
a
win-win
businesses.