►
Description
Welcome to the 12th episode of The Deep Collaboration podcast.
In this episode, CoScreen co-founder Max Andaker and Till Pieper will be talking to Darren Murph, Head of Remote at GitLab about remote work, async and sync collaboration, and the power of documentation at your organization.
00:25 - About Derren and his career path to GitLab
02:00 - The way GitLab approaches async and sync communication
05:30 - Hiring in a remote organization
08:00 - How COVID helped organizations understand better their operating principles
11:17 - How to overcome the miscommunications of async
14:00 - How GitLab are achieving more async work with fewer sync sessions
15:50 - Mob and pair programming while working remotely
17:30 - How to avoid a deeper communication wedge with dedicated proposals.
18:24 - How GitLab is scaling and cataloging knowledge long term
21:00 - GitLab as the only source of truth
22:35 - How GitLab came up with its core values
25:00 - The difference between working remote and working from home
26:30 - The future of work
29:55 - Tips and tricks for bettering remote work
35:00 - Serendipity in office vs in a remote setting
A
Welcome
to
the
deep
collaboration
podcast
from
coldscreen,
my
name
is
max
andocker
and
in
this
episode
I'm
joined
by
my
co-founder
till
peeper
in
a
fascinating
conversation
with
daryn
murph
as
the
head
of
remote
for
gitlab.
Dennis
knowledge
cannot
be
understated
when
it
comes
to
creating
the
right
environment
for
people
to
thrive
and
working
remotely.
A
A
B
At
get
lab,
it's
a
pretty
uncommon
title.
We
have
pioneered
that
title
here,
but
it's
becoming
more
popular.
You
take
a
look
at
organizations
like
facebook
and
quora
they've
already
hired
dedicated
remote
leaders.
There
was
a
report
put
out
by
t3
advisors,
taking
a
look
at
how
that
is
changing
and
tracking
over
time
it's
been
a
very
fascinating
journey.
So
for
some
context,
gitlab
builds
a
devops
platform
and
collaboration
platform,
but
we
are
300
people
in
more
than
65
countries
with
no
company-owned
offices,
so
our
organizational
design
has
been
studied
by
harvard
and
ncea.
B
We
have
case
studies
being
taught
around
the
world
on
how
we
do
that
and
before
coming
to
get
lab,
I
spent
almost
15
years
leading
teams
around
the
globe
in
hybrid
remote
scenarios,
and
so
it's
been
fascinating
to
transfer.
Some
of
that.
I
spent
eight
years
at
engadget
had
a
lot
of
fun.
Doing
that.
I
was
talking
to
you
a
bit
off
air
on
some
of
the
the
early
incarnations
of
what
would
be
our
handbook
and
how
that
is
translated
to
gitlab
now.
B
A
You
obviously
have
an
amazing
background,
as
you
said,
I
think
git
lab
is
a
one
of
the
companies
that
are
really
leading
the
way
in
how
to
handle
remote
work,
and
I
guess
also
transition
into
hybrid
work
that
a
lot
of
organizations
will
have
to
go
through
post
covert.
I
want
to
spend
some
time
on
talking
about
the
way
you
structured
work
in
general
between
async
versus
sync
chronos,
because
that's
something
that
you
often
talk
about
in
interviews,
etc.
So
perhaps
you
can
start
there
yeah.
B
We
could
start
there
and
spend
the
rest
of
the
day
there
like
what
what
an
amazing,
what
an
amazing
topic
so
I'll
start
with
two
things,
and
we
can
dig
into
it
as
you
like.
A
lot
of
people
will
position
sync
and
async
with
the
verses
in
between
so
synchronous
versus
asynchronous,
but
I
don't
look
at
it
that
way.
These
are
two
tools
in
the
collaboration
toolbox,
and
so
sometimes
you
need
to
pull
out
this
tool,
and
sometimes
you
need
to
pull
out
the
other
tool
to
get
a
specific
job
done.
B
So
when
I
look
at
sync
and
async,
I
think
they
have
different
purposes
and
I
think
you
should
be
able
to
master
and
utilize
both
of
those
and
the
real
super
power
is
knowing
when
to
use
which
and
when
to
pivot
from
one
to
the
other,
and
it
takes
a
lot
of
time
in
working
with
yourself
and
working
with
your
team
to
really
know
when
that
is.
But
there
are
some
guiding
principles
on
when
to
start
with
either
that
we
use
at
gitlab.
So
I'm
happy
to
dive
into
those.
B
But
there's
an
interesting
story
behind
that.
So
many
people
would
assume
that
that
would
be
because
we
value
collaboration
or
we
value
results
or
maybe
efficiency.
So
we
have
six
core
values,
and
I
just
named
three
of
those,
but
the
bias
for
async
is
actually
within
our
diversity,
inclusion
and
belonging
value,
which,
when
most
people
see
that
it
seems
kind
of
an
odd
fit
for
a
bias
for
async
to
be
within
your
diversity
value.
B
B
And
so,
although
there
are
amazing
opportunities
to
use
synchronous
engagement,
we
want
people
to
first
put
in
the
effort
to
see
if
they
can
move
something
forward
without
needing
someone
online.
At
the
same
time,
because
we're
all
people
we
have
families,
we
have
hobbies,
we
have
community
and
anytime
that
a
synchronous
engagement
happens.
That's
time
that
you
can't
spend
on
those
initiatives.
C
Awesome
and
we
actually
at
code
screen,
we
I
think
we
have
a
similar
bias
in
the
sense
of
that.
I
would
say
three
quarters
of
the
day
are
essence
where
we
use
slack
we
use
loom.
We
use,
of
course,
gitlab.
That's
why
killscreen
is
being
built.
That
being
said,
we're
asynchronous
collaboration
tool
like
we
are
covering
the
other
side
of
the
spectrum,
so
in
ours
on
our
site.
C
We
sometimes
think
it
also
works
because
we're
very
senior
team
members
like
that
have
worked
for
over
10
years
in
engineering
teams,
for
example,
they
know
what
they
have
to
do.
They
don't
need
much
guidance.
Do
you
feel
there
is
I
mean
for
with
regards
to
gitlab?
Do
you
hire
people
that
are
compatible
with
sync,
because
there
might
be
certain
people
that
don't
want
that
or
aren't
aren't
you
know
for
whom
it
might
not
be
the
great
fit.
B
That's
a
great
question
so
I'll
give
you
two
points
on
that.
The
short
answer
is:
yes:
we
hire
for
a
profile
called
manager
of
one.
This
essentially
means
that
we
want
to
hire
people
who
are
totally
comfortable
and
capable
of
managing
their
own
time
and
attention
with
very
little
oversight,
and
if
they
do
need
direction
or
guidance,
they
manage
the
asking
for
that
guidance,
and
so
we
want
people
who
are
very
self-aware
of
their
time
and
they
will
ask
for
guidance
if
they
need
it.
B
So
that's
that's
kind
of
the
cornerstone
of
what
we
hire
for,
but
the
second
element
of
this
is
we
write
down
our
values
and
gitlab's
values
aren't
just
values
these
kind
of
esoteric
principles.
They
are
the
operating
manual
on
how
we
get
work
done
and
how
we
treat
each
other.
And
so,
when
I
mentioned
earlier,
one
of
our
sub
values,
a
substantiator
of
a
value,
was
bias
for
async.
B
We
actually
bring
this
up
in
the
interview
process
to
make
sure
that
people
align
with
the
values
we
want
to
make
sure
that
people
want
to
work
in
this
way,
and
what
you'll
find
is
that
the
more
you
document,
your
values
and
your
operating
principles,
the
more
of
a
favor
you
are
doing
to
any
candidate,
because
you
are
giving
them
a
heads
up
of
what
they
are
self-selecting
into
or
opting
into.
I
like
to
say.
No
one
accidentally
ends
up
at
all
remote
get
lab
and
is
surprised
that
there's
no
in-person
interview
along
the
way.
B
We
make
it
very
clear
that
this
is
what
it's
like
to
work
here
and
not
that
it
will
work
for
everyone,
but
as
a
leadership
team,
if
you're
building
and
scaling
a
company,
it's
super
important
to
document
what
those
operating
principles
are.
You
want
people
opting
into
it.
You
want
people
who
are
going
to
be
tailwind
and
work
in
that
direction,
and
you
also
want
to
be
transparent
about
it,
so
that
the
people
who
are
considering
working
with
you
know
exactly
what
they're
getting
into.
C
B
B
They
will
transition
to
a
remote
model.
They
will
have
to
implement
some
of
these
quintessential
remote
first
practices,
but
on
the
other
side
of
that,
I
think
there
will
be
some
organizations
who
have
tested
the
waters
with
crisis-induced
work
from
home
over
the
past
year
or
so
and
say.
This
is
exactly
what
we
don't
want
and
we
are
going
to
be
clear
about
our
rigidity,
we're
going
to
be
clear
about
where
we
are
co-located
and
why
we
are
co-located
and
they
will
probably
improve
their
office
first
meeting
hygiene
and
collaboration
hygiene.
B
It
will
be
different,
but
hopefully
it
will
still
be
documented
and
well
understood,
and
that
way,
if
you're
looking
for
a
new
role.
My
hope
is
that
you
can
canvas
the
landscape
of
employers
and,
at
the
very
least,
they're
being
more
clear
about
what
and
how
they're
doing
and
how
they're
working.
If.
A
You
look
at
the
two
on
one
side:
the
asynchronous
first
organizations.
On
the
other
side,
the
synchronous
first
like
what
are
some
traits
that
differ
the
two.
Would
you
say
that
certain
categories
are
better
a
better
fit
for
asynchronous
work,
or
is
it
more
just
corporate
culture?
That's
the
defining
factor.
B
I
think
any
company
that's
producing
predominantly
digital
outputs,
so
if
you're
building
a
collaboration
platform
or
if
you're,
building
a
social
media
platform
where
essentially
all
of
your
results
are
digital,
you
can
become
an
asynchronous
organization
with
less
effort.
It's
going
to
be
more
seamless.
B
B
My
hope
is
in
doing
so.
They
will
start
to
install
and
not
say
they.
I
mean
any
organization
considering
this
transition:
they'll
install
more
of
a
documentation
mindset
and
a
documentation
culture
such
that
even
the
people
that
have
to
work
on
site
or
they
are
engaged
in
a
synchronous
environment
we'll
have
access
to
more
information
from
those
who
were
working,
async
and
documenting.
C
We
noticed
that
for
the
complex
merch
requests
and
although
we
try
to
split
them
up
as
much
as
we
can
so
there
aren't
that
many.
You
know
super
heavy
complex,
mr
sometimes
that
happens
that
there
is
a
risk
of
mis
for
misunderstandings.
You
know,
there's
a
risk
and
we
feel
it's
a
little
higher
risk
of
misunderstandings.
B
Yeah,
absolutely
we
have
a
principle
that,
if
we're
going
to
go
back
and
forth
three
or
more
times
on
the
the
same
very
specific
task,
we
try
to
inject
some
sort
of
synchronicity
to
get
over
that
hurdle
and
avoid
any
communications.
Here's
here's
the
principle
to
that.
You
have
to
look
at
every
motion
in
moving
a
piece
of
work
forward
through
the
lens
of
roi.
B
B
It's
with
positive
intent
that
you
are
seeking
a
greater
level
of
understanding
and
you'll
find
that
some
people
can
provide
that
deeper
level
of
understanding
more
appropriately
through
the
written
word
or
an
asynchronous
video
through
a
food
or
loom,
or
something
like
that,
and
some
have
an
easier
time,
communicating
it
synchronously
individuals.
Humans
are
fascinating
creatures,
and
one
thing
is
for
sure.
A
Let's
say
yeah,
thank
you
so
much.
I
think
it's
fascinating
and
because
you
do
say
more
asynchronous
work
fewer
synchronous
sessions.
How
do
they
differ
say
from
synchronized
sessions
at
a
primarily
synchronous
company?
Are
they
shorter?
Are
they
more
less
frequent,
I
would
say
probably
less
frequent,
but
how
do
they
come
to
be?
Did
you
schedule
them
or
they
ad
hoc.
B
B
There
is
an
overview
of
what
the
meeting
will
be
about
the
proposed
list
of
attendees
and
some
proposed
outcomes,
and
the
point
in
doing
that
is
if
a
calendar
invite
shows
up
in
your
inbox-
and
you
know
right
away
that
you
can't
make
it
maybe
you're
on
the
other
side
of
the
world.
Maybe
you
just
want
to
be
outside
with
your
kids.
B
During
that
time,
you
can
click
into
the
agenda
in
advance,
write
down
your
questions
and
then
someone
who
does
attend
can
synchronously
verbalize
that
for
you
and
then
document
the
answer,
you
can
read
it
after
the
fact.
So
it's
not
as
good
as
being
there
live,
but
it's
really
close,
and
so
we
try
to
make
our
synchronous
processes
as
inclusive
as
possible,
and
I
don't
think
many
organizations
would
put
that
much
intentionality
into
it.
B
C
Interesting
and
what
we
notice
is
that,
since,
especially
in
the
dynamic
that
the
interest
in
pair
programming,
you
know
more
programming
became
well
ballooned
quite
a
bit,
and
we
think
it's
because
that
many
teams
aren't
as
advanced
as
you
are
with
regards
to
remote
workflows,
and
there
are
misunderstandings
and
suddenly
they
figure
out.
Pep
programming
is
a
way
to
create
more
connection
between
people
in
a
very
intense
form.
C
It's
maybe
the
most
intense
synchronous
time
you
can
spend
together,
because
you
know
it's
typically,
two
coders
writing
code
together,
maybe
not
at
the
very
same
time,
but
switching
every
few
minutes
more
programming,
this
next
level,
where
you
have
more
than
two
people
doing
the
same.
Do
you
use
that
as
gitlab?
You
know
there
are
people
that
do
that
to
even
replace
code.
You
reuse
entirely,
because
you
assume
the
whole
code
was
written
by
two
people
in
any
anyway.
So
there's
nothing
to
read
it.
What
do
you
think
about
that?
Move?
Movement.
B
C
B
B
If
you're
going
to
dedicate
time
to
synchronicity,
it
should
only
be
to
discuss
a
proposal
that
was
already
written
down
if
you
just
get
together
and
there's
a
bunch
of
unscattered
thoughts,
you're
just
driving
an
even
deeper
communication,
which
now
there
are
even
more
people
that
don't
know
an
even
deeper
level
of
thought
or
communication
about
a
specific
project.
So
the
earlier
you
can
catch
that
and
write
it
right
down
up
to
the
point
that
you're
at
right
now
the
easier
it
is
to
convey
that
information.
After
the
fact.
C
What
I
found
surprising
when
I
heard
about
this
initially,
is
that
I
mean
all
of
us.
You
are
including
us
code
screen
we
use
lag
for,
for
most
of
that
I
mean
the
most
content
that
we
create
text.
Written
content
is
isn't
slack
and
still
you
purge
everything
after
a
few
days
right,
because
you
don't
regard
slack
as
the
tool
where
that
should
live
on.
B
B
By
the
way
we
celebrate
the
most
boring
solutions,
and
what
we
found
is
that
if
you
expire
slack
messages
after
90
days,
you
force
people
to
not
use
it
for
work,
which
has
many
positive
knock-on
effects,
one
of
which
is
that
it
forces
people
to
write
things
down
in
gitlab
the
platform
instead
of
in
slack,
which
is
a
much
better
tool
for
cataloging
and
scaling
knowledge
long
term.
It's
breaks
down
a
lot
of
communication
silos,
but
the
secondary
benefit
of
that
is,
it
makes
slack.
B
It
gives
like
more
room
to
be
an
informal
communication
tool.
So
imagine
if
you
were
in
an
office-
and
you
went
to
the
lobby-
that's
generally
seen
as
a
place
where
you
have
informal
communication,
you
feel
comfortable,
asking
people
about
their
day
or
maybe
their
family
or
what
they
did
this
weekend
and
then
in
the
office
setting
a
boardroom.
It's
sure
there
will
be
some
of
that
talk,
but
it's
mostly
about
work.
So
what
you've
seen
here
is
that
an
architect
designed
the
atmosphere
for
the
appropriate
type
of
work
or
conversation.
B
Many
organizations
right
now
are
trying
to
muddy
the
waters
that
do
both
of
those
in
the
exact
same
medium,
they're
trying
to
do
work
and
foster
culture
and
informal
communication
using
slack.
So
when
you
look
over
at
slack
and
you
see
10
red
bubbles,
you
don't
know
how
many
of
them
are
an
urgent
product
request
and
how
many
of
them
are
somebody
who
just
wants
to
talk
about
their
weekend
and
it's
extremely
disorienting.
It
definitely
isn't
helping
on
the
mental
health
standpoint
and
so
by
forcing
work
into
a
certain
tool.
B
It
allows
slack
to
be
that
water
cooler.
If
you
will,
that
informal
communication
tool
for
our
remote
team
and
we
stand
up
topical
channels,
things
like
parenting
and
hiking
and
cooking
where
people
can
go
in
there
and
discuss
those
topics
without
feeling
awkward
that
they're
talking
about
how
to
persuade
their
seven-year-old
to
wear
pants
in
the
morning.
In
the
same
medium
that
they're
talking
about
work.
C
C
Okay,
okay,
that's
awesome
and
adjacent
to
that.
Like
you
use
other
tools,
like
I
mean
maybe
zoom
recordings,
maybe
in
code
screen
one
day,
there's
a
recording
feature.
I
think
you're
supporting
the
yak
folks
in
your
audio
chat,
audio
messaging
or
loom.
How
do
you
deal
with
these
channels?
Are
they
all
ephemeral,
like
slack
for
you
and
then
gitlab
is
the
only
source
of
of
truth?
Or
do
you
combine
them
somehow.
B
B
If
it's
going
to
be
something
as
a
permanent
takeaway,
you
would
put
it
in
the
gitlab
issue,
but
we
have
this
principle
called
answer
with
a
link,
and
so
what
you'll
oftentimes
see
in
slack
is
someone
asks
a
question,
a
work,
related
question
and
it
usually
only
takes
about
three
or
four
replies
before
someone
steps
in
and
answers
with
a
link.
Maybe
that
link
is
a
loom
recording.
Maybe
it's
a
gitlab
issue
or
epic
with
a
lot
more
detail
in
it,
or
maybe
it's
someone
stepping
in
and
saying
hey.
A
Super
interesting
and
a
lot
of
this
seems
to
be
governed
by
specific
principles
and
values.
You
often
mentioned
we
have
a
core
value
on
this
and
a
principle
on
that.
Can
you
take
us
to
what
has
the
process
been
like
coming
up
with
those
values
and
principles,
and
is
that
something
that
you're
still
actively
updating
or
are
they
fairly
set?
At
this
point.
B
This
is
an
organization
who
has
had
values
since
the
beginning
and
last
year.
There's
that
much
evolution
going
into
it.
I
even
remember
someone
in
the
community:
they
did
not
work
at
get
lab,
they
found
our
values
page
and
they
had
a
background
in
communications
and
they
submitted
a
merge
request
and
they
went
top
to
bottom.
Adding
things
like
oxford
commas
and
reworking
sentences
for
better
stylistic
flow
and
they
submitted
it,
and
they
said
this
is
one
of
the
most
fascinating
documents
I've
ever
seen.
B
I
appreciate
you
letting
me
contribute
this
proposal
to
make
it
more
readable.
I
thought
that
was
fascinating
and
it
really
goes
to
show
the
value
of
open
core
and
open
source
and
letting
everyone
contribute
even
to
the
values.
Page
gitlab
actually
used
to
have
a
lot
of
values
and
we
condensed
those
down
to
six
values,
and
then
we
started
writing
sub
values,
substantiating
values
underneath
those
and
that
was
key
to
operationalizing
each
value.
So,
essentially,
what
happens
is
as
we
scale
and
more
people
work
together,
we
will
discover
new
ways
to
live
the
values.
B
People
will
discover
new
ways
to
be
efficient,
they'll
discover
new
ways
to
exemplify
iteration
and
every
time
we
discover
one
of
those
we
add
it
to
the
values
page
so
that
new
and
existing
team
members
can
look
at
that
and
it
becomes
the
spotlight
on
how
to
do
those
things:
how
to
live.
Those
values
awesome.
C
And
speaking
about
value,
so
they
I
think
what
frustrates
us,
sometimes
that
in
the
pandemic,
people
conflate
issues
with
remote
that
they
have
in
the
pandemic,
with
being
with
issues
with
remote
work.
Overall,
you
know
they
complain
about.
You
know,
stress
levels
where
workers
so
long:
they
they
can't
really
turn
off
the
switch
off
entirely
or
so.
What's
your
view
on
that?
I
mean
you've
been
remote
way
before
the
pandemic.
C
I
think
we
spoke
in
2019
first
time
about
our
journey
and
what
you've
learned
and
so
on
and
so
forth
and
about
different
coloration
modes
and
suddenly
everything
what
you
did
became
kind
of
the
blueprint
for
what
everyone
should
do
or
had
to
do,
because
we
weren't
able
to
go
to
the
offices
anymore.
How
do
you
help
these
people
that
think
remote
is
bad
because
they
are
struggling
with
that
in
a
very
specific
situation,
which
is
this
horrible
pandemic.
B
I
kind
of
see
part
of
my
role
as
being
the
chief
imagination
officer
for
the
world,
because
crisis-induced
work
from
home
is
not
the
same
as
intentionally
structured,
remote
work
right.
I
like
to
say
that
I'm
the
world's
biggest
advocate
for
remote
work,
but
I
haven't
been
able
to
work
remotely
during
the
pandemic.
I've
been
able
to
work
from
home,
but
other
than
losing
the
commute.
B
All
of
the
other
remote
work
benefits
you
don't
get
during
a
pandemic,
so
for
people
that
really
enjoy
the
freedom
and
autonomy
recaptured
time
from
losing
the
commute
during
the
pandemic.
You
just
wait.
It
gets
better
a
lot
better
and
I
have
to
routinely
say
this
to
people
who,
if
this
is
their
first
experience
with
remote
work,
they
could
easily
be
turned
off
by
it,
but
it
gets
a
lot
better
when
you
intentionally
structure
it.
C
Do
you
think
there
will
be
a
backlash?
You
know
once
folks
can
go
to
the
office
that
suddenly
remote
is
no
longer
the
thing?
Do
you
think
it's
temporary
or
what
I
mean?
Maybe
that's
a
good
segue
into
the
last
part
of
the
conversation
or
how's
the
future
going
to
look
like
how
will
we
work
in
two
years
from
now.
B
B
B
I
think
there
I
don't
that
the
backlash
there
will
be
some
of
that
and
here's
where
it's
gonna
come
from
organizations
are
massively
underestimating.
How
difficult
hybrid
will
be
to
get
right?
If
you
say
we
allow
remote,
you
can
choose
whether
you
come
into
the
office
or
you
work
from
home.
That's
not
enough!
You
have
to
give
people
the
tools,
the
infrastructure
and
the
operating
principles
to
work
wherever
they
are
in
a
location
agnostic
way.
B
Well,
they
aren't
using
the
same
tool:
they're,
not
communicating
with
each
other
you're,
creating
two
different
organizations
and
calling
them
one
company,
and
I
don't
think
many
organizations
fully
appreciate
the
dysfunction
that
can
come
from
that.
That
said,
I
am
very
long
on
remote
and
I
think
one
of
the
massive
positive
benefits
to
come
out
of
this
is
the
ability
for
anyone
to
go
into
a
job
interview
now
and
confidently
say:
what
is
your
stance
on
workplace
flexibility?
B
I
think
back
15
years
ago,
when
I
was
asking
this
in
a
job
interview,
you
had
to
have
an
amazing
amount
of
privilege
and
a
pretty
incredible
portfolio
of
work
to
even
think
of
asking
for
that
type
of
flexibility,
and
so
now
the
people
that
need
it.
Most.
Your
working
parents
elder
caregivers,
military
spouses
introverts
these
people
need
that
flexibility,
the
most
and
now
I
hope
they
are
more
empowered
to
ask
for
it
and
organizations
will
have
to
have
a
solid
answer
on
it.
B
A
Yeah,
thank
you.
I
think
you
bring
up
a
great
point
about
the
dangers
of
allowing
remote
work
versus
being
set
up
for
it,
and
also
perhaps
some
of
the
challenges
organizations
will
face
that
prematurely
assume
that
they
can
go
into
a
hybrid
work
mode.
What
are
some
of
the
tips
or
tricks
you,
or
perhaps
even
warnings
we'd
like
to
send
to
those
organizations
thinking
that
okay,
we
had
the
best
part
of
the
office
experience.
Now
we
got
some
good
side
effects
out
of
being
remote.
B
Funny
you
asked
that
shortly
after
the
last
in-person
event
that
I
did
where
I
actually
got
to
see
you
max
briefly,
it
feels
like
a
hundred
years
ago,
I
was
sitting
at
a
coffee
shop
waiting
to
meet
someone
else
in
person
in
san
francisco
and
all
of
the
pandemic
stuff
started
to
unfold
like
the
earliest
underpinnings
of
it
and
I'll.
Never
forget
that
moment
because,
while
there
at
the
coffee
shop,
I
wrote
a
guide
which
is
now
in
the
all
remote
section
of
the
get
lab
handbook
called
what
not
to
do.
B
B
So
I
actually
built
a
guide
on
what
not
to
do
and
at
the
crux
the
crux
of
that
guide
is
don't
replicate
the
office
experience
remotely.
That
is
a
passable,
functional
way
to
get
business
done,
but
you're
not
taking
advantage
of
this
entirely
new
landscape.
It
would
be
like
moving
from
an
office
built
a
hundred
years
ago
into
a
new
technologically
advanced
office
and
not
taking
advantage
of
any
of
the
technology
just
continuing
to
use
it
as
if
it
had
old,
old,
plumbing
and
old
wiring
like.
Why
would
you
do
that?
B
B
It's
likely
that
people
will
choose
to
be
in
the
office
and
rub
shoulders
with
executives
over
their
family
and
community,
because
they're
going
to
prioritize
career
progression,
they
see
it
as
a
piece
of
self-preservation
by
just
keeping
the
executives
out
of
the
office.
You
defuse
all
of
that,
and
if
people
do
choose
to
go
back
into
the
office,
they
do
it
for
innocuous
reasons.
Things
like
the
coffee
is
better
at
the
office
versus
my
house.
A
I
mean
it's
super
interesting.
I
I
think
this
is
almost
saying
that
you
know.
Perhaps
we
saw
before
the
pandemic,
where
some
executives
would
be
traveling
all
the
time
they
will
always
be
out
and
about
past.
That
was
actually
a
good
thing
because,
as
you
said,
you
weren't
giving
out
you
weren't,
giving
an
extra
privilege
as
an
employee
by
being
in
the
office
together
with
that
executive
versus
being
at
home.
B
Innovation
comes
from
friction,
and
so,
if
you
have,
the
friction
of
all
of
our
executives
are
in
different
time
zones.
Now
you
will
get
innovation
out
of
it
sure
it'll
be
a
little
uncomfortable.
Maybe
it
feels
a
little
inefficient
at
first
but
you're
building
muscle
to
be
a
much
more
risk
averse
and
more
resilient
company.
By
doing
it.
B
C
One
topic
you've
touched
on
earlier,
which
is
friction,
creates
innovation,
but
also
serendipity
right,
so
folks
running
into
each
other.
How
do
you
recreate
that?
I
think
that's
one
of
the
you
know
original
challenges
of
being
remote,
because
everything
is
planned.
Everything
is
structured.
Everything
is
formal.
Everything
is
pre-planned.
How
do
you
still
enable
serendipity
and
create
stuff
that
isn't
planned
and
isn't
foreseeable.
B
I
alluded
to
this
earlier,
but
those
serendipitous
moments
in
an
office
were
never
really
serendipitous.
You
had
an
architect
design,
hallways
design
doors
specifically
to
get
people
to
run
into
each
other
and
say
things
to
each
other.
It
was
very
carefully
planned
out.
Trust
me.
No
office
was
built
without
some
some
careful
planning,
so
you
have
to
do
the
same
thing
remotely.
You
have
to
plan
the
atmosphere
for
people
to
have
serendipitous
conversations.
B
B
If
you
create
the
the
atmosphere
for
people
to
say
that,
then
it
becomes
a
lot
easier
for
it
to
happen.
The
other
thing
I'll
mention
here
is
in
person
matters.
A
lot
get
lab
is
one
of
the
most
intentional
organizations.
I
know
about
in-person
engagements.
We
get
the
entire
company
together
for
a
week
every
single
year
we
get
a
lot
of
our
sub
teams
together
more
frequently
than
that.
B
Don't
try
to
create
an
organization
where
people
never
see
each
other,
because
if
you
spend
some
amount
of
time
together,
building
culture
building
rapport,
it's
just
easier
to
reach
out
to
that
person
or
say
something
in
a
public
slack
channel.
That's
just
an
idea
in
draft
which
then
becomes
the
next
great
serendipitous
conversation.
A
B
Yes,
in
person,
time
is
best
spent
building,
rapport
and
building
culture
not
doing
work,
and
I
know
this
is
going
to
be
really
tough
for
transitioning
orgs
to
wrap
their
head
around
a
lot
of
times.
If
you're
looking
at
sending
15
people
to
a
sales
conference,
you
want
to
make
sure
they're
working
every
second
of
the
day
to
get
the
maximum
value
out
of
it.
But
that's
not
how
you
get
the
maximum
value
out
of
it.
B
A
B
You
know
I
got
my
my
first
invitation
to
an
in-person
panel
a
few
weeks
ago,
scheduled
for
july
in
orlando,
and
I
was
wholly
unprepared
for
the
surge
of
joy
to
my
brain.
Upon
receiving
that
invitation.
I
didn't
even
care
what
the
topic
was
like.
I
will
talk
about
anything
we're
going
to
talk
about
dog
food,
we're
going
to
talk
about
it,
doesn't
matter
I'll
talk
about
anything,
so
I'm
excited
for
for
that
to
get
going
again.
I
think
a
lot
of
us
have
felt
our
social
reservoir
getting
really
low.
B
We're
still
working
that
through,
like
any
organization,
but
it's
encouraging
to
see
companies
panels,
events
start
taking
steps
towards
getting
people
together.
Again
I
do
have
a
few
personal
trips
on
the
horizon
and
it's
been
fun
to
start
booking
flights
again.
My
delta
app
got
really
dusty
for
a
while,
and
it
made
me
really
sad
so
I'm
excited
to.
I
kept
it
on
my
first
pain
of
my
iphone
screen
through
the
whole
pandemic,
like
I
didn't
open
it
at
all,
but
yeah
it's
like.
I
can't
not
have
it
here.
You
know
in
solidarity.
C
B
Yeah,
absolutely
thanks
for
having
me
on
and
for
those
that
are
listening
and
want
to
learn
more
go
to
allremote.info.
That
will
get
you
to
the
remote
playbook.
Give
that
a
download
and
also
check
out
the
remote
work
report.
We
just
published
that
it
is
a
fascinating
look
at
what
makes
remote
work
tick
what
people
wish
they
had
and
what
the
numbers
say
about
this
transition
that
we're
washing
unfold
in
real
time.
Awesome
awesome.
A
B
Yeah,
let's
say
check
out
what
we've
built
at
get
lab
all
remote
dot
info
that'll,
get
you
into
our
remote
playbook
and
all
of
our
our
guidance
there
and
the
other
thing
I
would
encourage
you
to
do
is
question
everything
about
how
you're
living
and
the
intersection
between
life
and
work.
If
suddenly,
you
don't
have
a
commute
and
you
can
work
more
non-linear
workdays.
What
can
life
look
like
for
you,
my
wife
and
I
adopted
a
newborn
at
birth
two
years
ago.
B
That
was
an
amazing
way
to
grow
our
family,
and
that
was
largely
supported
by
the
flexibility
of
remote
work.
So
what
have
you
wanted
to
do
may
have
been
putting
off
that
if
you
have
the
opportunity
to
work
remotely,
it's
now
much
more
possible.
So
challenge
yourself
start
writing
some
of
that
down
jam
out
with
others
on
that
and
let's
make
the
world
a
better
place
together.