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Description
An intimate chat between two remote work experts as they discuss the tectonic shift in the very nature of work wrought by a global pandemic and how leaders, managers, investors, and developers can succeed in the new paradigm.
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A
Gitlab
is
the
world's
largest
all-remote
company,
with
over
1
300
team
members
in
more
than
67
countries
with
no
company-owned
offices
darren
and
his
team
have
literally
written
the
book
on
building
a
remote
first
company
as
head
of
remote
at
gitlab.
Darren
provides
leadership
across
people,
culture
operations,
inclusivity,
marketing,
employer,
branding
and
communications.
A
A
B
Thanks
for
having
me
jonathan
thanks
all
for
tuning
in
excited
for
today's
conversation,
so
ahead
of
remote
is
a
very
cross-functional
role
in
a
remote
company.
The
usual
things
that
you
do
from
finance
to
legal
to
engineering.
They're
all
done
a
little
bit
differently,
and
you
really
have
to
think
inclusively
about
having
people
in
65
or
more
countries.
So
everything
that
you
would
do
operationally.
B
You
have
to
consider
putting
yourself
in
the
shoes
of
someone
in
a
different
time
zone
on
a
different
geography
and
there's
a
lot
of
tax
and
infrastructure
implications
that
go
along
with
that,
and
also
part
of
my
role
is
working
with
our
learning
and
development
team
to
make
sure
that
culture
is
really
strong
and
that
our
managers
have
what
they
need
to
thrive.
As
remote
team
managers.
B
Yeah,
so
for
us
there's
two
sides
of
this
coin:
half
of
it
is
tooling
and
half
of
it
is
culture.
So
at
get
lab,
we
all
use,
get
lab
the
product
for
all
of
our
project,
collaboration
and
gitlab.
The
tool
has
transparency
built
in
it
enables
us
to
very
easily
see
what
other
teams
are
working
on,
and
many
companies
haven't
really
drawn
the
parallel
between
transparency
in
your
work
and
belonging
in
your
culture.
B
But
what
we
believe
is
that
the
more
transparency
and
visibility
that
the
entire
team
has
to
each
other's
work,
the
more
easy
it
is
for
people
to
feel
like
they
belong
and
belonging,
is
crucial
to
culture,
especially
in
a
remote
environment.
You
don't
have
the
office
walls
to
gather
within
and
build
that
energy
and
that
vibe
by
being
around
other
people,
so
you
have
to
lean
heavily
on
having
transparency
in
your
work
and
then
also
being
intentional
about
informal
communication.
We
have.
A
B
Chats
we
have
slack
channels
devoted
to
parenting
and
hiking,
and
fitness
and
cooking,
and
things
like
that.
We
try
to
encourage
people
to
be
themselves
outside
of
work.
Virtual
happy
hours
are
wearing
thin
if
you
haven't
noticed,
so
we
believe
that
people
should
be
empowered
to
go
be
who
they
are
in
the
communities
that
they're
in
around
the
world
and
then
bring
those
videos,
photos
and
stories
back
to
work
to
build
culture
internally.
A
Got
it
done,
I
heard
you
talk
a
lot
about
transparency,
asynchronous
communication
as
being
core
pillars
to
operating
effectively
when
you
are
a
remote,
distributed
or
globally
distributed
team.
I've
heard
you
specifically
talk
about
in
how
gitlab
has
this
async
first
culture
and
your
incredible
handbook
and
for
everyone
in
the
audience
you,
if
you
haven't
read
gitlab's
handbook
on
running
remote,
first
teams
that
darren
and
his
team
wrote
I'd
highly,
encourage
you
to
check
it
out.
Could
you
share
with
us
what
you
mean
by
building
an
async
first
culture
and
why
that's
important.
B
Yeah,
so
asynchronous
is
what
I
call
the
superpower
of
remote
teams,
that
is,
the
telltale
sign
that
you've
evolved
past
the
skeuomorphic
shift
and
lift
type
of
approach
where
you
just
try
to
press
copy
on
the
office
environment
and
then
paste
it
into
a
virtual
environment
into
one
where
you're
much
more
more
thoughtful
about
how
work
can
take
shape
and
take
place.
So
having
a
bias
for
asynchronous
communication
is
actually
a
sub
value
within
our
diversity,
inclusion
and
belonging
value.
B
B
Yeah
so
I'll
focus
on
two
things.
There
are
many,
but
I
will
say
early
on
in
the
pandemic.
We
got
this
question
a
lot
and
I
actually
composed
a
guide
within
the
get
lab
handbook
on
what
not
to
do,
because
the
truth
is
transitioning
to
remote
takes
a
lot
of
time
and
effort
and
intentionality
over
a
very
long
period
of
time.
B
Signaling
is
very
important
and
if
the
executives
are
the
first
ones
back
into
the
office,
once
offices
can
reopen
globally,
it
sends
a
very
clear
signal
to
those
who
are
debating
whether
they
should
become
remote,
full-time
or
straddle
the
line
that
the
workflows
are
probably
going
to
revert
back
to
office
first
instead
of
remote
first.
So
if
you
do
have
a
long-term
lease
on
a
building-
and
you
will
have
people
back
into
that
building
make
sure
that
the
executives
stay
out.
This
will
help
force
your
workflows.
B
We
call
these
forcing
functions
to
be
more
inclusive
and
remote
first,
and
the
second
point
here
is
be
very
thoughtful
about
hybrid
remote.
The
global
conversation
on
this
is
that
many
organizations
feel
like
hybrid
is
the
best
of
both
worlds.
It
allows
the
people
who
can't
wait
to
get
back
in
the
office
to
go
back
but
also
gives
flexibility
to
the
people
who
never
want
to
go
back
into
the
office
and
on.
B
But
if
you
don't
put
a
lot
of
intentionality
around
this,
you
end
up
with
a
two-tier
system
and
you
start
building
in
some
friction
and
dysfunction
and
even
animosity
and
it's
fundamentally
more
difficult
to
manage
and
make
equitable
two
different
playing
fields
compared
to
one
or
the
other.
And
so.
B
A
That's
that's
very
helpful
darren
so
that
your
two
takeaways,
don't
let
the
exec
team
rush
back
to
the
office.
It
sends
a
negative
signaling
effect
and
second
be
very,
very
careful
if
you
are
considering
a
hybrid,
remote
structure,
which
I
think
is
how
many
companies
actually
that
I
meet
tend
to
think
about
it.
A
They
think
about
being
in
the
office
fully
distributed,
and
this
hybrid
as
sort
of
being
the
best
of
both
worlds,
and
you
are
making
the
point
that,
if
done
poorly,
it
could
be
a
minefield
wrought
with
a
two-tier
system
where
there's
sort
of
this
second-class
citizens
of
of
the
team
who
are
maybe
not
in
the
office.
So
we
have
to
be
very
intentional
about
if,
if
somebody's
exploring
a
hybrid
setup.
A
B
Look
at
it
as
remote,
first
isn't
about
where
you
work,
it's
about
how
you
work,
and
so,
if
someone
chooses
to
go
to
the
office,
they
shouldn't
work
fundamentally
differently
than
if
they're
at
their
home.
So
when
you're
thinking
about
what
are
the
considerations
to
make
sure
to
making
sure
hybrid
goes
well
convert
all
of
your
work
processes
so
that
they're
equally
seamless
away
from
the
office
as
they
are
in
the
office.
And
then,
if
people
choose
to
work
from
the
office,
they
actually
don't
work
any
differently.
So
that's
the
preface
now.
B
What
should
you
do
differently?
A
lot
of
leaders
right
now
are
inundated
with
the
inundated
with
new
tools
and
just
kind
of
fraught
with
anxiety
on
all
of
these
new
tools
and
how
my
team
can't
take
another
new
tool
right
now.
Gitlab
just
uses
existing
tools
in
really
innovative
ways,
so
we
expire
our
slack
messages
after
90
days.
So
I'm
sure
everyone
here.
A
B
Familiarity
with
slack
or
teams,
so
what
happens
if
you
just
destroy
all
of
those
messages
after
90
days?
Well,
for
us,
it
forces
people
to
work
in
get
lab
instead
of
working
in
slack,
and
the
reason
we
do
this
is
work
in
get
lab
is
far
more
transparent
and
less
siloed
than
work
and
slack,
and
we
want
to
do
everything
we
can
to
encourage
more
transparency
in
where
and
how
we
work.
The
secondary
benefit
of
that
is.
It
makes
slack
an
ideal
medium
for
informal
communication.
B
It's
a
lot
easier
to
use
that
as
a
bit
of
a
virtual
water
cooler
and
have
human
to
human
conversations,
when
you
aren't
also
expected
to
do
work
in
the
exact
same
medium.
So
that's
that's
what
we
do
for
informal
communication
and
I'll
give
you
one
more
example:
google,
docs
or
office
365.
I'm
sure
everyone
is
familiar
with
these
tools
on
our
meetings
get
lab
meetings.
When
they
do
happen,
we
make
sure
to
attach
a
google
doc
agenda
to
every
single
meeting
invite
and
that
acts
as
a
medium
for
real-time
documentation
during
the
meeting.
B
So
if
you
miss
a
meeting
or
you're
in
a
time
zone
where
it's
not
amenable
for
you
to
join,
you
can
actually
put
your
questions
in
asynchronously
before
the
meeting
even
happens
and
then
read
up
on
what
the
answers
were,
because
someone
in
the
meeting
would
verbalize
it
for
you
and
track
the
answer.
So
it's
just
a
more
inclusive
way
to
use
a
common
tool.
Google
docs
and
an
uncommon
way
to
capture
more
information
and
be
more
transparent
with
a
global
team.
A
How
in
your
company,
you
have
the
culture
of
documenting
everything,
institutional
knowledge,
this
the
company's
collective
mind
or
state,
is
captured
in
a
really
detailed,
wiki
or
documents.
Where
you
told
me
darren-
and
I
thought
this
was
super
very,
very
cool-
that
you
try
to
respond
to
questions
or
messages
with
a
link
to
a
document,
and
that
again
puts
like
you,
don't
need
slack
for
persistent
state
storage
like
you
have
all
that
state
captured
somewhere,
and
that
was
super
interesting.
A
B
B
If
you're
thinking
about
work
in
30-minute
chunks,
then
pausing
to
write
something
down
will
definitely
make
the
next
30
minutes
of
your
life
go
slower,
but
if
you
think
of
the
time
scales
as
a
week
or
a
month
or
a
year
more
like
project
based
time
scales,
writing
things
down
now
going
slow
enables
you
to
go
really
fast
later
on.
That
is
how
you
scale
knowledge
and
scale
documentation,
and
it
makes
your
day
more
efficient
when
you
don't
have
to
answer
things
over
and
over
and
over.
B
If
you
answered
it
once
and
then
you're
able
to
share
the
link
around.
So
it's
not
rocket
science,
but
it
really
does
require
a
rigor
around
that
from
a
cultural
standpoint
and
at
gitlab
we
like
to
say
if
it's
not
in
the
handbook,
it
doesn't
exist
and
we're
serious
about
that.
We
try
very
hard
to
make
sure
that
we
ask
of
others
the
same
thing
that
we
would
expect
from
ourselves,
which
is
document
document
document,
so
the
people
around
the
world
in
whatever
time
zone
they're
in
have
more
access
to
that
information.
A
B
So
time
zones
are
the
bane
of
any
team's
existence
and
notice.
I
didn't
say
it's
the
bane
of
the
remote
team's
existence.
Time
zones
have
been
a
challenge
since
humankind,
even
for
companies
that
are
co-located.
If
you
have
an
office
in
singapore
and
an
office
in
london
in
an
office
in
tulsa
oklahoma,
you're
going
to
have
time
zone
issues,
even
if
people
in
each
of
those
respective
buildings
go
to
those
respective
buildings.
B
B
But
if
you
hire
another
person
and
another
and
another-
and
you
start
strategically
filling
in
the
time
zones
around
the
world
that
you
don't
have
representation
before
you
know
it,
it
becomes
somewhat
easier
to
just
hand
projects
off
from
one
time
zone
to
another
to
another,
and
so
at
300
people.
We
have
most
of
the
major
time
zones
covered
at
this
point,
and
we
have
that
rigor
around
working,
asynchronously
and
documenting
heavily.
So
that
makes
those
hand
handoffs
around
the
clock.
Go
a
lot,
go
a
lot
smoother.
B
B
So
we
try
not
to
demand
it
and
require
it,
because
that
that
frees
us
to
hire
the
best
person
wherever
they
are
in
the
world
and
also
it
allows
people
who
are
in
a
team
to
travel
around
the
world,
and
we
have
people
that
outside
of
covid
will
change
their
time
zones
every
month.
So
we
have
to
have
a
team
structure
that
will
support
that
and
it
makes
sure
that
our
work
is
in
a
place
that
can
be
moved
forward.
A
B
That
is
true,
that
is
true.
Get
lab
is
a
popular
place
to
work.
We
have
exceptional
data
on
employee
retention,
much
higher
than
the
industry
average,
and
we've
worked
really
hard
to
make
get
lab
a
great
place
to
work
and
actually
coming
out
of
covid
remote
work
in
general
is
being
democratized
in
a
major
way.
So
before
kovit
get
lab
was
one
of
the
very
few
organizations
that
were
well
known
about
putting
intentionality
in
the
remote
first
culture.
B
My
hope
is
that
coming
out
of
covet
a
lot
of
other
organizations
will
wake
up
to
this,
and
they
will
look
to
get
lab's
proven
principles
and
then
copy
and
implement
those
and
build
their
own,
really
strong,
reverse
robust
remote
first
culture,
part
of
the
legacy
that
we
hope
to
leave
is
to
proliferate
remote
first
in
all
remote.
We
don't
want
to
be
the
only
game
in
town
for
for
doing
this.
A
So,
as
one
thing,
I
think
about
a
lot
as
as
a
ceo
is
do
when
you
go
fully
distributed,
does
it
become
hard
for
people
to
form
authentic
social
relationships
and
friendships
with
other
people
at
work?
We
spend
about
a
third
of
our
life
at
work
and
in
a
office
first
culture.
Typically,
people
make
friends
at
work
right.
They
don't
just
form
relationships
between
the
people
they're
in
meetings
with
they
might
have
lunch
with
somebody.
They
might
go
for
walks
with
somebody.
A
B
So
what
we've
seen
is
that
all
remote,
it
actually
flattens
the
organization
in
an
important
way
and
it
enables
more
relationships
to
be
built.
So,
for
example,
if
you're
in
an
office
building
what
you
just
mentioned
is
probably
true,
but
only
to
the
floor
that
you're
on.
If
you
were
to
compare
the
people
that
work
on
floor
3
with
the
people
that
work
on
floor
8,
for
example,
they
probably
have
never
met
and
they
won't
actually
build
strong
bonds.
B
So
if
you
set
up
the
atmosphere
where
people
are
comfortable
having
coffee,
chats
and
building
informal
relationships
with
each
other
using
virtual
mediums,
you
actually
can
have
many
more
fruitful
relationships
than
you
could
in
an
office
building,
because
proximity
matters
so
much
in
an
office.
Whereas
in
a
virtual
world
you
don't
you
don't
have
that
burden.
B
We
budget
to
get
the
entire
team
together
once
a
year
outside
of
covet,
obviously,
and
that
whole
week
is
just
spent
doing
excursions
and
building
rapport
with
people.
We
have
user
events
throughout
the
year
where
we
will
fly
people
in
from
all
points
around
the
globe
to
to
really
spend
time
with
each
other.
So
you
have
to
shift
the
mindset
and
travel
becomes
this
point
of
leverage
for
rapport
building.
A
B
Yeah
in
person
matters
like
we're:
communal
beings,
we're
human
beings.
The
goal
here
is
not
to
create
a
company
where
no
one
ever
meets
anyone.
The
goal
here
is
to
create
a
company
where
people
are
comfortable
living
wherever
they
are
in
the
world,
and
then
the
company
is
strategic
about
getting
those
people
together
to
make
sure
that
the
culture
is
strong.
B
Create
psychological
safety
so
that
people
can
be
who
they
are
so,
for
example,
on
a
friday
afternoon,
many
companies
would
be
want
to
have
a
virtual
happy
hour.
Maybe
everyone
dons
a
costume
and
they
say
yo.
Let's
just
get
everybody
in
a
zoom
room
and
they'll
build
bonds
together.
But
what
is
more,
impactful
is,
if
you
empower
them
to
go,
be
the
hands
and
feet
of
change
in
their
communities.
A
B
B
Yeah
and
this
really
sheds
light
onto
how
I
try
to
look
at
everything
which
is
through
the
lens
of
opportunity,
instead
of
the
lens
of
scarcity.
So
what
we're
seeing
in
this
great
remote
migration
is
the
greatest
opportunity
in
our
entire
generation
to
think
about
work
differently
instead
of
having
to
fit
a
certain
mold
when
you
walk
into
the
office
and
bring
a
certain
aura
with
you,
we
have
none
of
that
anymore.
It's
like
the
emperor,
has
no
clothes,
we're
all
working
from
home,
we're
all
exposing
everyone
to
what
home
looks
like
for
us.
B
This
is
a
massive
opportunity
to
allow
people
to
bring
all
of
that
to
work,
and
it
touches
on
another
point:
that's
key
to
get
labs
fabric,
which
is
we
don't
even
hire
for
culture
fit
we
hire
for
values
fit.
We
will
run
through
the
get
lab
values
during
an
interview
and
make
sure
people
are
aligned
from
a
value
standpoint,
and
then
we
say
bring
all
of
your
culture
to
work.
As
long
as
we're
assured
that
we're
both
working
in
accordance
to
the
same
values,
then
we
want
all
of
the
individual
brought
to
work.
B
A
B
A
B
B
So
if
that
has
been
a
struggle,
if
there
was
not
something
set
up
for
that
already
in
a
co-located
environment,
I
would
say:
look
to
technology
so
that
it
makes
it
easy
for
people
to
show
what
they're
working
on
the
other
thing
is
when
we
think
about
remote
leaders
and
just
leaders
in
general,
at
gitlab,
there's
a
very
high
burden
on
the
people
leader
to
clarify
what
does
success
look
like
so
when
you
ask
how?
How
do
we
know
if
people
are
going
to
be
accountable?
Well,
a
lot
of
it
is.
B
Are
you
being
clear
about
what
success
looks
like
so
at
gitlab
that
burden
shifts
much
more
towards
management?
It's
on
management
to
clarify
what
success
looks
like
and
then
it's
the
individual's
responsibility
to
feed
back
to
management
on
what
they
need
to
be
successful.
Maybe
they
need
a
different
access
level.
Maybe
they
need
new
software?
Maybe
they
need
some
learning
and
development
or
upskilling,
to
use
certain
software
to
meet
those
metrics,
but
it's
very
much
a
two-way
street,
but
it
starts
with
leadership
being
super
clear
on
what
success
looks
like.
B
B
B
The
signals
cannot
be
such
that
people
are
ostracized
to
some
degree
if
they're,
not
in
the
office.
So
if
you're
an
individual
working
in
an
organization,
that's
considering
going
back
hybrid,
please
share
this
guide
with
them,
show
them
that
there
is
a
way
to
do
it.
There
are
considerations
to
doing
it,
but
I
would
also
advise
that
if
you
see
it
going
in
a
different
direction,
if
you
see
leadership
not
fully
committing
to
remote
first,
there
will
be
a
lot
more
opportunities
for
companies
that
do
embrace
remote
first
and
so
keep
your
eyes
open.
A
Thank
you
darren,
and
we
are
at
time
and
darren
shared
with
us
a
lot
of
useful
knowledge
and
practical
tips
to
build
a
successful,
remote
first
company.
Ask
everyone
in
the
audience.
If
you
saw
something
interesting,
do
tweet
your
key
takeaways
from
this
from
this
panel
hashtag
boundaryless
and
we'll
be
giving
away
touring
hoodies
to
to
some
of
the
best
summaries
that
we
see,
which
which
would
be
super
fun.
A
Thank
you
darren
for
taking
the
time
to
join
us.
We're
excited
to
to
build
boundaryless
teams
taking
a
lot
of
these
lessons
from
gitlab
and
other
companies
that
are
pushing
the
world
of
distributed
teams
forward
and
tools
like
gitlab
are
like.
I
can't
understate
like
how
good
some
of
these
tools
have
gotten
that
just
make
running,
distributed
teams
of
engineers
so
easy,
and
thank
you
for
the
great
work
that
you
do.