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From YouTube: Consensus 2017: The State of Blockchain
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A
Hello
good
to
see
everybody
again
yeah.
My
name
is
pete
rizzo
editor
for
coindesk,
and
pleased
to
welcome
a
distinguished
panel
of
guests
today
for
a
talk
on
the
state
of
blockchain
augmenting
that
title
a
little
bit
to
focus
on
state
of
blockchain
technology,
and
I
think,
a
little
bit
even
more
specifically
than
that.
A
The
gap
between
you
know
where
the
vision
is
for
this
technology
and
where
we
are
today
so
with
that
I'll
introduce
our
panel
here
to
my
left,
joseph
lubin,
founder
of
ethereum
startup
consensus,
a
brooklyn-based
firm,
dedicated
to
realizing
decentralized
applications
in
a
decentralized
web,
he's
also
a
key
driver
of
the
ethereum
enterprise
alliance
or
sorry
enterprise,
ethereum
alliance,
which
today
added
86
members
to
its
roster,
including
some
major
enterprises
to
his
left.
A
We
have
adam
bauck,
co-founder
and
ceo
of
blockstream,
which
is
a
vc,
backed
startup,
building,
bitcoin
based
side
chains
for
use
by
startups
and
enterprises.
Today,
blockstream
announced
its
first
commercial
side
chain
had
entered
beta.
That's
called
liquid
to
his
left.
Brian
bielendorf
executive
director
of
the
linux
foundation
led
hyperledger
project,
an
umbrella
framework
framework
for
blockchain
and
distributed
ledger
software
tools.
Today,
hyperledger
saw
two
of
its
code
bases,
intel,
sawtooth
lake
and
surimitsu's
ahora
achieve
active
status.
A
So
before
we
begin,
I
want
to
start
by
noting
that,
as
the
editor
of
coindesk
a
lot
of
times,
I
get
questions
about.
What's
going
on
in
the
industry,
and
people
assume
that,
just
because
I
am
reading
and
writing
about
this
technology
daily,
I
have
some
privileged
insight
into
where
it's
going
and
I
would
say
sometimes
it's
exactly
the
opposite.
A
You
know
we
see
a
diversity
of
consensus,
algorithms,
we
see
a
diversity
of
blockchains,
we
see
a
diversity
of
code,
bases
and
different
languages,
with
different
governance
models,
with
different
business
models
at
play
and
sort
of
in
the
mix
of
all
these
things.
I
think
it
can
be
very
difficult
to
figure
out.
What's
what?
Even
when
we
talk
about
this
technology,
we
talk
about
blockchains.
We
talk
about
distributed
ledgers,
we
talk
about
cryptocurrencies,
we
talked
about
virtual
currencies.
Often
we
use
these
things
interchangeably
and
oftentimes.
Sometimes
we
mean
the
same
thing
so
with
that.
A
I
kind
of
want
to
turn
to
the
panel
and
sort
of
ask
them
a
bit
how
they
make
sense
of
this.
Given
this
multiplication
of
of
ledgers
of
blockchains,
I
guess
my
first
question
with
you
joe
starting
is
you
know,
is
there
a
larger
stack
of
technologies
here?
What
opportunities
specifically?
Are
you
working
on
in
that
stack,
and
why
do
you
even
believe
that
that
opportunity
exists.
B
Well,
we're
certainly
primarily
focused
on
the
ethereum
stack.
The
ethereum
stack
has
grown
from
a
set
of
components.
We
at
consensus
have
built
backend
infrastructure
that
processes
about
150
million
requests
per
day.
B
On
average,
we
built
developer
tools,
so
we
we
are
fleshing
out
that
pure
public
ethereum
stack
and
we're
even
putting
things
like
decentralized
governance,
to
manage
your
potentially
open
source
projects
and
potentially
crowdfunding,
and
also
an
exciting
project
for
dynamic
workforce
assembly
using
bounties
adjacent
to
that
we
have
the
enterprise
stack
and
so
around
core
public
ethereum
we're
making
it
easy
for
enterprise
to
share
the
same
code
bases.
B
Essentially,
lots
of
companies
were
using
ethereum
for
pocs
and
some
were
using
it
for
production
code,
but
they
all
basically
went
to
the
website
downloaded
the
code
base
and
then
made
their
own
custom,
modifications
and
tweaks
to
make
it
enterprise
ready.
So
the
eea
is
taking
it's
one
of
its
responsibilities,
just
cleaning
all
that
up,
making
it
easy.
So.
B
And
then
all
of
these
individuals,
on
stage
with
us
are
building
technologies
that
we
will
all
likely
want
to
interoperate,
and
so
we
at
consensus
are
building
an
interledger
tool.
There
are
various
other
interledger
protocols
and
we
should
say
something
about
the
complementary
technologies
like
ipfs,
swarm,
etc.
For
decentralized
storage,.
A
So
I
guess
adam,
I
guess
I
would
turn
it
over
to
you
same
question.
What
stack
are
you
working
on?
Why
do
you
think
there's
an
opportunity
there
and
do
you
agree
with
what
joe
just
said
in
terms
of
his
descriptions?
Is
it
similar,
I
guess,
where
you're
working
in
the
space.
C
Yeah
so
at
blockstream
we're
working,
we
started
from
the
bitcoin
code
base
in
stack
as
a
the
most
secure
and
well
established
open,
blockchain
platform,
and
so
we're
initially
doing
making
federated
blockchains
with
signers,
but
still
explain
the
federated
with
that.
Okay,
so
federate
blockchain.
Is
there
a
group
of
entities
on
the
network
that
are
executing
a
byzantine
agreement
protocol?
C
So
I
I
I
see
an
an
interesting
use
for
mining
and
I
also
see
mining
connecting
with
a
publicly
auditable
blockchain.
So
I
think
it's
very
interesting
there's
this
kind
of
choice
between
a
private
blockchain
and
a
public
blockchain
which
comes
down
to
whether
the
public
and
the
people,
depending
on
the
assets
being
managed
by
the
institutions
operating
the
these
networks,
whether
they
get
to
verify
that
their
assets
are
being
handled
according
to
the
rules.
C
And
so
you
could
argue
that
if,
if
a
blockchain
is
inside
a
vpn
and
it's
private
in
some
sense
that
maybe
it's
not
delivering
value
to
the
end
users,
if
it's
only
visible
to
the
company's
own
auditors,
you
might
say
their
existing
erp
systems
and
database
systems
had
that
property.
Now.
Obviously,
there
is
some
value
because
you
can
do
that
across
organizations.
C
So
obviously,
the
people
involved
in
the
transaction
know
how
many
shares
of
one
type
or
how
many
bitcoins
and
what
the
price
is
and
how
many
were
traded
and
which
types
are
involved
in
traction
transaction
if
you're
selling
bitcoins
for
dollars
or,
if
you're,
swapping
a
stock
for
bitcoin.
Or
what
have
you.
So
the
participants
get
visibility.
A
Would
you
say
that
you
see
have
them
as
the
same
stack
you
see.
The
open,
bitcoin
blockchain
is
something
you
can
leverage
to
build
a
stack
of
technologies
for
the
enterprise.
C
I
mean
it's,
it's
always
possible
to
take
an
open
network
and
put
it
behind
a
firewall
and
that's
certainly
a
valid
starting
choice
to
try
something
out,
but
I
think
you
get
additional
value
by
connecting
to
the
internet
proper
and
allowing
open
audit
allowing
other
people
to
audit.
So
it
might
be
a
bit
like
the
early
adoption
of
the
internet,
where
people
were
a
little
bit
hesitant
about
internet
technology.
C
There's
a
lot
of
talk
about
intranet
and
eventually
people.
You
know
over
time
people
became
more
happy
with
and
accustomed
to
security
provisions
on
the
internet.
So
I
think
it's
interesting
to
start
with
a
secure
base
so
that
you
are,
you
feel
comfortable
and
that
you're
still
going
to
get
your
security
assurances
when
you're
connected
to
the
open
internet.
D
You
know,
I
think
it's
the
human
brain.
We
want
to
try
to
find
the
right
levels
of
abstraction
right.
We
want
to
think
of
a
singular
stack
as
something
fixed
that
we
can
then
build
our
businesses
upon
and
never
have
to
revisit
it
again
right.
D
The
bad
news
I
have,
I
guess,
is
that,
no
matter
what
you
build
your
pocs
or
pilots
on
today,
when
you
actually
go
to
move
it
to
production
in
18
months,
you
will
likely
do
some
significant
retooling
right,
even
if
you're
sticking
with
one
particular
stack
one
particular
brand
of
technology,
because
all
of
these
technologies
are
evolving
at
a
fairly
fast
clip.
The
good
news
is
most
of
the
time
you're
going
to
be.
Spending
on
these
pocs
or
pilots
is
in
your
own
business
processes
or
your
own.
D
The
things
that
will
actually
persevere,
no
matter
how
the
underlying
technology
changes.
Now
I
at
hyperledger
we
started
out
focusing
very
much
on
the
consortium
chain
approaches,
I
hesitate
to
say
private,
because
while
many
of
these
will
be
private
deployments,
you
certainly
can
have
permission
chains
with
public
greed
right-
and
I
imagine
we'll
see
quite
a
few
of
these
out
there
in
some
ways
the
dns
and
tls
certificate
databases
are
permissioned
right
in
public
greet,
but
we
also
started
out
by
saying
there's
a
large
solution
space
out
there.
D
That
is
worth
exploring
right.
That
is
worth
enabling
fabrics
approach
to
looking
at
consensus
mechanisms
and
whether
go
as
a
programming
language
inside
of
docker
is
an
interesting
smart
contract
vehicle
or
not.
But
we
also
said
there's
a
lot
of
smart,
interesting,
smart
contract
work
going
on
in
the
ethereum
community,
and
so
when
monax
showed
up
to
the
party
and
said
we'd
like
to
consider
you
know
bringing
what
was
called
airsdb
and
is
now
called
burrow
into
hyperledger.
We
said
that
is
an
interesting
alternative.
D
That's
an
interesting
option,
I
kind
of
think
on
the
server
side
in
in
enterprise
technology.
We've
always
had
this
this
this
constant
kind
of
churn.
I
remember
people
getting
really
excited
about
the
lamp
stack
in
the
late
90s
right:
linux
apache,
my
sequel
and
pearl,
although
it
was
also
pearl
and
php
and
python-
oh
and
it
was
post
grass-
oh
you
know,
and
then
it
was
cassandra.
D
These
things
evolve
on
this
on
the
enterprise
side,
much
more
quickly
than
we're
used
to
partly
because
the
number
of
moving
parts
on
the
enterprise
is
actually
smaller
than
if
we're
talking
about
the
technology
landscape.
On
the
consumer
side,
where
you
do
want
a
lot
more
stability,
so
there
is
going
to
be
churn,
but
I
also
think
right
now:
we
need
to
be
avoiding
locking
ourselves
into
temporary
technology
and
architecture
decisions
that
then
become
difficult
to
get
ourselves
out
of
right.
D
The
pace
of
change
right
now
that
we're
seeing
is
necessary,
as
we
figure
out
the
physics
of
these
technologies
and
right
now,
parallelizing
that
investigation
and
then
having
a
common
licensing
approach
and
common
community
model
under
hyperledger.
So
we
can
reuse
good
ideas
from
one
project
or
another
is,
I
think-
and
I
think
our
community
thinks
is
the
fastest
organic
way
to
get
to
the
right.
Architectures.
A
So
I
guess
richard
with
with
corda:
are
you
are
you
feeling
a
very?
I
guess
the
specific
opportunity
that
you're
feeling
is
more
narrow?
Is
that
correct.
E
So
it's
it's
interesting
because
that
isn't
actually
how
it
turned
out.
So
when
we,
when
we
started
designing
quarter
as
you
might
expect,
with
r3
being
a
you
know,
we're
a
platform
company,
but
we
count
over
80
of
the
world's
largest
financial
institutions
as
our
members
and
when
we
started
work
on
quarter,
we
set
out
to
build
a
platform
that
could
bring
the
benefits
of
dlt
or
blockchain
to
specific
scenarios
in
finance
and
and
the
the
upshot
is
actually
a
platform.
That
is
a
very
general
purpose.
E
So
it
was
quite
an
interesting
journey.
We
went
on.
We
focused
on
a
very,
very
specific
set
of
use
cases
in
finance,
but
ended
up
with
something
that
is
is
quite
generic
and
the.
I
think
the
reason
for
that
is
because,
right
at
the
beginning
of
of
our
journey
as
our
three
with
our
membership,
we
we
kind
of
tried
to
stop
and
and
make
sure
we
had
a
firm
foundation
upon
which
to
to
to
begin
the
work,
because
you
know
there
was
so
much
hype.
E
E
You
know
that
obviously
got
the
first
blockchain
from
was
a
very
rigorous,
very,
very
elegant,
work
of
genius,
but
it
was
an
engineering
solution
to
a
well-stated
problem
and
you
can
define
it
in
many
ways,
but
the
problem
you
know:
censorship,
resistant,
digital
cash,
digital
cash.
However,
you
want
to
describe
it.
The
blockchain
was
the
was
the
engineering
solution
to
that
and
what
we
didn't
want
to
do
was
just
take
that
architecture.
Take
that
design
and
just
apply
it
to
finance.
We
wanted
to
be
very
sure
about
what
problems
in
finance.
E
Does
this
type
of
technology
solve
long
story
short
for
us?
It
was
bringing
parties
who
don't
fully
trust
each
other
into
consensus
about
the
existence
and
the
evolution
of
a
set
of
shared
facts.
What
is
the?
What
is
the
balance
that
is
held
between
the
two
of
us
details
of
the
syndicated
loan
between
the
five
of
us
and
to
build
a
system
that
does
that
which
we
built
from
scratch
with
called
a
open
source
platform?
E
You
end
up
needing
to
model
agreements,
the
evolution
of
agreements,
the
constraints
on
those
agreements,
and
we
use
financial
services,
use
cases
to
guide
that
development.
But
this
idea
of
managing
agreement
and
managing
contracts
between
identifiable
parties
who
don't
fully
trust
each
other
turns
out
to
be
very,
very
general
purpose.
So
so
it
gets
no
surprise
that
we,
even
within
the
r3
consortium,
which
is
very
focused
on
finance.
E
We
see
used
cases
in
insurance
and
trade
finance
and
things
that
were
not
part
of
the
the
original
design
goals,
but
it
turns
out
to
be
quite
effective
there
and
outside
finance
as
well.
A
So
you
said
specific
financial
partners
sharing
facts.
Would
you
say
that
so,
when
you're
creating
these
these
networks,
these
tribute
ledger
networks,
that
is
who
you
are
building
them
for
and
who
you
want
to
participate
in,
that's
correct.
A
So
so,
when
you're
building
these
networks,
I
guess
the
next
question
I
was
going
to
move
on
to
is
you
know
who
is
in
these
networks
that
you're
trying
to
create?
And
how
do
you
want
them
to
interact
in
those
networks,
and
it
seems
like
in
your
case
you
have
very
specific
vision
for
that
financial
parties
that
want
to
share
facts
and
that's
correct.
E
Yeah,
but
it's
it's
it's
interesting
to
think
about
where
this
can
go
so
so
one
of
the
one
of
one
of
the
earliest
projects
that
we
worked
on
when
when
coda
first
came
out,
was
showing
how
a
network
of
of
trading
partners
who,
who
trade
and
buy
and
sell
interest
rate
swaps
between
them
could
manage
them
automatically
and
without
error
without
requiring
central
parties
where
they
weren't
necessary.
So
in
that
case
you
know
the
parties
on
the
network
were
regulated
financial
institutions.
E
So
we
knew
what
would
happen
in
the
event
of
dispute,
but
you
look
at
some
of
the
projects
we're
working
on
this
year
that
will
go
into
pilot
and
production
later
this
year
in
trade,
finance,
yeah,
very
complicated
supply
chains,
very
complicated
relationships
between
different
organizations,
but
I
guess
at
the
heart
of
it-
and
maybe
this
is,
I
guess
one
of
the
I
guess
the
defining
characteristics
of
of
of
coda
is
that
the
parties
on
the
network
are
are
designed
to
be
identifiable
we're
trying
to
model
financial
agreements
contracts
between
them.
E
So
we
need
to
know
who's
at
the
other
end
of
the
connection.
So
so
there'll
be,
you
know
arbitrarily
complex
webs
of
connections
between
these
parties,
but
but
you
always
know
who
they
are.
That's
kind
of
the
point
is
kind
of
the
problem.
We're
trying
to
solve,
where
I
think
it
gets
interesting
is,
is
how
this
how
this
will
evolve
over
time.
So
imagine,
there's
there's
one
network,
that's
deployed
for
maybe
managing
cache
and
moving
moving
cache
around
between
parties
and
then
another
network
gets
deployed.
This
is
open
source
software.
E
Anyone
can
download
it
and
deploy
it.
Another
network
is
deployed
for
managing
financial
agreements
for
say
trade
finance.
The
question
then
arises
is
how,
in
the
future,
might
you
bring
these
things
together?
How
can
you
design
the
system
and
plan
for
it
upfront
so
that
these
two
different
networks
that
are
deployed
by
different
groups
of
organizations
on
different
time
scales
with
different
motivations?
How
could
they
subsequently
be
brought
together?
So
just
something
we
gave
a
lot
of
thought
to
in
the
in
the
design
of
quarter,
and
it's
something
you
can
do.
E
You
can
have
two
networks
that
start
off
separately
but,
provided
you
agree
on
just
some
simple
things:
around
parameters
and
a
few
a
few
commonalities.
The
design
allows
them
then
to
be
brought
together
subsequently.
So
now
you
can
do
sort
of
interesting
sort
of
combinations
of
transactions
on
the
same
platform.
So
so
thinking
about
where
this
might
go
over
time
is
fascinating.
So
I
guess.
A
Brian,
do
you
see
a
hyper
ledger
for
similar
users
or
who
who's
really
the
as
you're
gathering
these
technologies
together?
Do
you
have
someone
in
mind
that
these
are
for?
How
are
you
making
decisions
towards
that.
D
To
the
point
where
I
mean
it's
a
design
tool,
it's
a
graphical
tool
for
saying
here's,
the
actors
in
the
network:
here's
the
kind
of
business
processes
they
they
they
interact
with
each
other,
and
then
that
boils
down
and
builds
chain
code
for
you
and
helps
you
design
the
right
tapestry
kind
of
the
right
structure
for,
in
this
case,
specifically
for
fabric,
although
there's
conversations
underway
about
how
to
extend
that
to
the
other
dlts
the
hyperledger,
but
that
should
open
some
of
the
floodgates
to
access
to
being
able
to
write
these
kinds
of
applications
to
people
who
are
kind
of
more
comfortable
with
a
guided
process
like
that-
and
you
know,
I
see
the
stakeholders
in
this
in
our
community
being
not
just
the
core
devs
kind
of
getting
inside
the
meat
of
the
products,
but
those
who
really
do
want
to
try
to
treat
it
as
a
black
box
and
try
to
build
on
top
of
the
different
components.
A
So
I
guess
I
want
to
move
over
to
another
topic.
There's
been
a
lot
of
competition.
I
think,
amongst
you,
guys
for
developer
talent,
developer,
mind
share,
and
I
know
joe
specifically
ethereum
has
been
allotted,
for
I
guess
how
effectively
it's
been
able
to
appeal
to
new
participants.
How
much
of
that
is
is
due
to
the
model
of
that
you're,
allowing
developers
to
create
networks
that
are
open
participation
they
can
create,
they
can
leverage
tokenization
and
things
like
that.
A
B
I
think
the
fact
that
the
ethereum
project
was
public
and
permissionless
from
the
start
and
really
presented
the
vision
of
reformatting,
how
we
do
information
systems,
whether
they're
business,
economic,
social
or
political,
enabling
that
vision
to
create
a
decentralized
or
decentralizing
world
really
captured
a
lot
of
people's
attention
and
specifically
a
lot
of
developers
attention.
We
I'm
not
sure
what
the
numbers
are,
but
I
think
we're
probably
around
90
000
downloads
of
our
of
our
truffle
developer
suite
and
we
so
half
our
company
does
public
or
product
for
public
permission.
B
This
blockchain
and
some
of
that
finds
its
way
to
private
permission
systems.
Half
our
company
does
enterprise
consulting
and
the
kinds
of
projects
that
we're
doing
on
the
enterprise
side
are
actually
extremely
cool
researchy
projects.
These
are
things
that
have
really
never
been
done
before
so
dcenter
transactional
business
logic
on
top
of
a
decentralizing
electricity
generation,
storage
and
transmission
industry
very
exciting
stuff.
A
B
B
Also,
ethereum
is
the
only
platform
that
can
that
that
is
a
powerful
blockchain
system
that
can
operate
in
a
private
permission
context
or
the
public
permissionless
context,
and
so
so
many
of
our
systems
that
we
build
on
the
enterprise
side
will
probably
only
stay
private
and
permissioned,
but
several
do
have
as
part
of
their
roadmap
to
move
to
public
permissionless
blockchain,
and
so
we
can
build
out
an
infrastructure
knowing
that,
according
to
the
ethereum
roadmap,
as
things
get
more
scalable
in
12
months
and
configurably,
private
and
confidential,
we
can
move,
for
instance,
that
energy
infrastructure
battery
network
to
the
public
blockchain.
A
So
I
guess
I
would
throw
this
question
to
richard.
So
how
do
you
see
incentivizing
developers
when
we
have
these
open
networks
that
create
value
and
that
you
know,
as
we
were
talking
about
before,
with
these
initial
point
offerings
and
things
like
that,
there's
a
tremendous
financial
incentive
for
developers
to
work
in
these
open
fields?
So
I
guess,
how
do
you
is
that
an
audience
are
there?
Are
there
separate
audiences
here
that
you're
trying
to
attract?
Is
I
guess?
How
do
you
look
at
the
promotion.
E
I
think
there's
probably
there's
several
audiences
and
we
you
know
we
clearly
want
to
attract
them
all.
So
so
you're
right,
you
know
we
are
you
know
we,
we
don't
have
a
coin.
There
is
no
quarter
coin,
it's
a
it's
a
you
know,
it's
apache2
license
fully
open
source
project
and
the
community
is
growing
since
we
opened
sourced
it
last
year
and
growing
strongly,
and
I
think
there's
several
reasons
for
that.
E
So
so,
firstly,
we
have
the
the
the
members
of
the
all
three
consortium
who
are
who
are
contributing
heavily
to
it,
but
but
if
that
was
all
it
was,
it
would
kind
of
be
uninteresting.
You
know
these
platforms
and
these
these
platforms
are
useful
when
they're
widely
deployed
and
there's
a
large
number
of
people
using
them
for
different
different
topics.
So
we
gave
a
lot
literally
a
huge
amount
of
thought
to
to
how
to
make
this
platform
attractive
to
developers
and
how
to
encourage
the
things
they
build
to
get
into
production.
E
So
it
sounds
quite
I
mean.
Maybe
it's
what
I'm
about
to
say.
May
sound
may
sound
quite
mundane,
but
it
turns
out
to
be
absolutely
critical
for
for
helping
people
use
it
and
get
a
good
experience.
So
so
we
targeted,
we
targeted.
The
java
virtual
machine
coder
runs
on
the
java
platform,
which
people
basically
asked.
Why
do
we
do
that?
Well,
one
there's:
over
nine
million
java
developers
you
can
program
in
scala,
kotlin,
ruby,
all
the
other
java
languages
as
well,
so
immediately.
E
There
is
a
very,
very
large
number
of
developers
who
can
just
pick
this
up
and
use
it,
and
then
we
went
further
and
said:
well,
how
can
we
make
this
an
enjoyable
environment?
How
can
we
make
this
something
that
people
people
enjoy
building
applications
on
and
get
productive
on?
So
again
it
doesn't
sound
very
much,
but
it
turns
out
to
be
really
important
when
you're
actually
running
these
projects.
Things
like
when
an
event
comes
in
over
the
network,
so
a
new
state
is
updated
and
your
contract
is
logged.
E
You
can
just
you
know,
with
one
line
of
code
subscribe
to
updates
so
that
you
know
as
soon
as
it
happens,
bang
bang,
bang!
You
get
identified
out
to
you
over
the
open
messaging
layer,
so
you
can
either
send
them
straight
into
your
own
enterprise,
if
you're
a
bank
or
put
them
straight
onto
the
user
interface
with
just
one
line
of
code.
Similarly,
you
know
you
look
at
the
traditional
block
block
explorer
on
many
blockchains,
and
you
see
some
interesting
things,
but
you
see
lots
of
impenetrable
hashes.
E
You've
got
to
dig
through,
so
we
asked
ourselves
well,
why
are
people
building
these
applications?
You
know,
why
would
you?
Why
are
you
trying
to
connect
different
institutions
or
different
companies
to
process
data?
Well,
it's
because
they
represent
orders
or
trades
or
facts
and
you're
likely
to
want
to
get
them
into
a
database
and
query
them
and
do
things
with
them.
E
So
you
can
annotate
them
in
a
couple
of
lines
of
code
and
when
the
state
comes
in
immediately
it
shreds
it
and
sticks
it
into
a
separate
relational
database
table
just
a
regular
sql
table
that
you
can.
You
can
then
query
so
things
that
would
take
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
extra
coding
or
boilerplating.
Just
gets
really
quite
just
miserable
if
it's
not
built
in
we've,
just
gone
through
each
of
these
one
by
one
and
put
it
in
so
that
you
can,
you
can
get
these
applications
running
very
quickly
and
then.
E
Finally,
on
the
deployment
side,
you
know
it's
no
fun,
building
an
application
that
you
can't
then
deploy
and
given
that
you
know
we
are
targeting
to
a
large
extent.
You
know
firms
who
are
going
to
deploy
this.
You
know
there's
a
lot
of
people
in
banks
and
elsewhere
who
have
the
power
to
say
no,
who
can
say?
Well,
that's
interesting,
that's
nice,
but
our
standard
directs
one
set
and
they've,
and
if
the
thing
you're
trying
to
deploy
doesn't
fit
closely
into
one
of
these
boxes,
you'll
get
there.
E
But
there's
there's
a
long
list
of
things.
You've
got
to
go
through
so
hence
targeting
the
the
java
platform.
We
saw
our
data
in
a
relational
database.
We
use
regular
mq
to
move
data
around
so
so
things
that
don't
need
to
be
different
for
the
sake
of
being
different.
We
just
reuse,
we
reuse
a
huge
amount
of
stuff
that
the
companies
already
know
how
to
manage.
They've
already
got
teams
who
can
do
this,
so
guess
what
you
can
get
caller
solutions
into
production
very
quickly.
A
So,
switching
gears
a
little
bit.
I
wanted
to
get
a
lot
of
requests
for
talk
about
scalability,
specifically
how
the
scalability
of
the
underlying
blockchain
platforms,
you're
building
on
relate
to
the
scalability
of
sort
of
the
business
and
enterprise
production
projects
that
you're
working
on
and
even
extending
further.
How
that
puts
stress
on
what
everyone
really
seems
to
be
conservative
about
which
is
live
projects.
So
I
guess
I
would
start
with
you
adam.
Obviously,
then,
a
lot
of
tension
on
the
underlying
platform
of
bitcoin.
A
C
Yeah,
so
I
mean
the
I
think,
interest
it's
interesting
and
we've
talked
on
a
panel
about
sort
of
financial
institutions,
trusting
each
other,
so
institution
to
institution
transfer
of
assets,
presumably
on
behalf
of
end
users,
and
so
the
I
mean,
because
we're
talking
about
public
blockchains,
there's
also
an
aspect
of
who
is
the
custodian
of
the
asset.
So
if
it's
the
user,
that's
a
custodian,
the
user
needs
a
private
keys,
maybe
there's
a
multi-signature,
but
you
have
some
additional
control
of
your
assets,
which
is
one
of
the
interesting
values
of
a
blockchain.
C
Not
only
can
you
audit
that
it's
correct,
but
you
can
have
you
know,
actual
direct
authority
on
whether
your
assets
are
traded
on
or
not,
and
so
from
that
point
of
view
it
becomes
important
to
think
about
scalability
of
the
auditability
so
that
people
should
be
able
to.
You
know,
individuals
with
resources
that
individuals
could
realistically
achieve
should
be
able
to
audit
the
chain.
So
clearly
it's
much
easier
to
scale
a
chain
that
is
all
inside
a
data
center
in
new
york,
for
example,
you
can
use
fiber
loops
and
you
can
push
transactions
very
quickly.
C
So
you
know
there
there's
a
sidechain
there's
another
kind
of
chain
which
can
provide
higher
performance
as
well,
but
still
provide
auditability.
So
I
think
it
for
me.
It's
it's
most
interesting
to
think
about
auditability
value
and
direct
control
that
extends
to
users.
Obviously
that's
more
difficult,
but
I
think
it's
more
rewarding.
A
So
brian,
I
guess,
since
you
know
there
is
no
underlying
hyperledger,
it's
the
suite
of
of
projects.
How
do
you
look
at
scalability?
Is
it
the
scalability
of
these
individual
pieces?
You're?
Looking
at
you
know,
does
the
scalability
of
these
other
public
chains
matter
for
your
building
strategy?
I
guess
how
do
you
look
at
the
issue?
You're.
D
Starting
to
get
into
kind
of
dark
arts
kind
of
areas
too
I
mean
and
scalability
on
the
web
has
always
been.
You
know,
kind
of
a
question:
it's
not
always
tps
that
matters,
the
most
sometimes
speed
of
finality
matters,
sometimes
the
size
of
the
data.
You
can
record
in
a
transaction
matters,
and
you
know
if
you
want
a
chain
that
can
do
100
000
transactions.
A
second.
The
easiest
way
is
put
them
all
as
vps
in
the
same
server
right,
exchanging
messaging
over
a
common
memory
bust
right.
But
that's
not
you!
D
You
get
none
of
the
benefits
of
actually
dividing
up
the
sovereign
control
over
those
nodes,
which
is
the
advantage
of
moving
to
a
blockchain
in
the
first
place,
right
generally
in
a
global
supply
chain,
node
you're
going
to
want
global
distribution,
and
that
will
bring
your
transactions
per
second
down.
So
I
think
we're
really
just
at
the
starting
stages
of
learning
how
to
apply
kind
of
a
devops
mentality
to
to
managing
these
chains.
D
The
public
chains
are
much
further
ahead
on
figuring
these
things
out,
but
in
some
cases
they've
said:
okay,
we'll
fix,
tps
and
and
work
on
all
the
other
issues
around
that,
and
it
turns
out
when
people
say
they
need
100
000
transactions
per
second,
they
just
need
a
way
to
store
100
000
blobs
in
into
something
per
second.
They
don't
have
to
be
separate.
You
know
prevention
of
double
spend.
I
you
know,
item
potent
transactions
they
can
be
there.
There
are
many
approaches
to
this
that
we'll
figure
out
within
hyperledger.
D
We
have
started
a
performance
and
scalability
working
group
to
try
to
define
some
common
parameters
across
these
different
chains
for
describing
that
I'd
be
great
to
start
a
project
there
around
kind
of
a
performance,
benchmarking
tool,
that's
the
right
kind
of
thing
to
build
in
an
open
source
community.
I
think
so.
We
can
start
to
compare
apples
to
oranges
to
bananas,
but
yeah.
It's
it's
a
dark
art
right
now,.
A
So
I
guess
there's
a
summation
question
here.
You
know
we're
building
we're
building
actively
we're
building
fast,
but
I
guess
are
we
closer
to
really
understanding
where
this
all
goes?
So
I
guess
joe,
I
guess
how
what
is
your
vision
for
for
how
it
all
ends
up
and
and
how?
Where
are
we
in
that
timeline
vision
for
for
the,
for?
I
guess
the
idea
of
the
blockchain
right
the
idea
that
there
is
this
kind
of
united
networks
where
we
can
transfer
trust
and
establish
exchange
and
relationships.
So.
B
B
So
we
now
have
this
blockchain,
this
new
database
technology
that
enables
all
the
actors
on
the
system,
whether
they're,
cooperating
and
competing
to
trust,
the
underlying
infrastructure
as
a
shared
infrastructure
and
a
shared
source
of
truth
and
so
entities
like
the
enterprise,
ethereum
alliance
and
many
other
consortia
around
the
world
are
now
able
to
start
thinking
of
building
shared
systems
first.
So
so
that's
really
exciting.
With
respect
to
scalability
and
future
directions,
it's
certain
that
it
will
be
a
multi-protocol
world.
B
We
public
ethereum,
has
its
own
scalability
roadmap.
That
involves
proof
of
stake
instead
of
proof
of
work
and
sharding,
and
essentially
it
will
get
to
the
point
where,
when
you
add
new
compute
to
the
network,
there
will
be
a
roughly
linear
increase
in
transactional
throughput,
as
opposed
to,
when
you
add
compute
to
the
network
right
now
like
like
bitcoin.
B
B
We
at
consensus
have
built
a
glue,
basically
so
we've
glued
the
ethereum
network
to
the
bitcoin
network,
and
this
is
operational
now
and
we
can
validate
transactions
on
the
public
blockchain
on
bitcoin
within
a
smart
contract
on
ethereum.
A
I
guess
adam,
would
you
agree
with
that?
We're
we're
headed
to
this
multi-chain
world
and
that
we
understand
that
that
is
the
the
future
and
you're
building
towards
a
similar
vision
as
joe.
C
So
I
mean
I
think
interoperability
is
going
to
be
important
and
it's
you
know
it's
important
for
the
trust
properties
of
the
chain
to
transfer
and
if
we
have
different
pop
I
think
chains
have
to
be
public
generally
in
order
to
be
able
to
transfer
assets
globally.
Right
I
mean
we
can't
have
the
whole
world
behind
a
vpn
or
we're
back
to
square
one.
You
don't
trust
anybody
inside
the
vpn,
then
you
have,
you
know
no
advantage
say,
and
I
think
the
way
that
you
achieve,
transferable
trust
is
mining.
C
I
mean
mining
is
a
way
to
have
an
open
market
for
audit
services,
that
is
machine,
verifiable,
so
an
another
way
to
look
at
blockchains.
In
general,
I
mean
people
talk
about
a
ledger
and
so
on,
but
I
think
the
ledger
is
more
of
a
artifact,
so
what
you
actually
have
is
a
tokenized
digital
bearer
asset
that
is
secure
in
itself.
C
You
know
that
you
don't
have
to
put
behind
a
firewall
or
in
a
secured
data
center
or
behind
vpns,
because
it
has
cryptographic,
security
and
the
ledger
is
just
some
kind
of
artifact
to
prevent
double
spending
and
facilitate
its
use.
So
as
as
more
confidentiality
features
are
added
to
the
ledger,
the
ledger
is,
less
of
you
know
a
conventional
ledger:
it's
more
of
a
double
spend
database
that
assures
the
integrity
of
the
transfer
of
these
tokenized
assets.
So
then
it
becomes
interesting
to
re-architect
a
lot
of
financial
applications
using
secure,
tokenized
assets.
C
A
And
so
I
guess
brian,
would
you
agree
that
these
networks
are
gonna
need
to
be
public?
That
fits
into
your
your
vision
of
of
where
it's
going.
D
I
think
we
will
have
a
mix
of
public
and
private
chains.
I
think
the
public
chains
are
great
for
the
same
reason
why
publishing
birth
and
death
records
in
newspapers
are
great
right,
like
as
a
way
to
provide
an
alternative
vehicle
for
validating
the
integrity
of
of
a
non-public
chain.
A
non-public
data
set.
It's
it's
unparalleled
right,
but
I
think
there'll
be
there's
a
lot
of
reasons
for
either
data
management
reasons
or
human
governance
reasons
right.
D
Why
you're
gonna
want
a
different
physics,
sometimes
on
on
kind
of
consortium
chains,
and
so
there'll
be
a
gateway
between
the
two
and
different
technologies
on
these
different
systems.
I
do
think
on
the
public
chain
side
we'll
have
different
sets
of
public
chains
and
those
will
evolve,
but
the
interesting
question
will
be:
will
the
existing
public
chains
evolve
quickly
enough
to
handle
the
increasing
workloads
increasing
needs,
or
will
they
be
supplanted
by
new
public
chains
over
time?
And
what
does
the
tail
end
of
one
of
those
chains?
D
Look
like
as
these
as
these
demand
curves
kind
of
tail
off
right,
but
but
yeah
these
things,
there's
these
things
will
be
richly
woven
together,
and
identity
might
in
particular,
be
one
of
the
places
where
identities
on
private
chains,
identities,
on
public
chains,
at
the
direction
of
a
sovereign
individual,
get
tied
together
or
or
kept
separate
in
a
pseudonymous
way.
A
E
Like
you
know,
like
a
blockchain
node
on
whichever
platform
installed
deployed,
certified
and
operated.
You
know
it's
hard
work.
The
idea
that
an
institution
would
do
that
for
10
or
20
different
platforms.
It
just
isn't
going
to
happen,
so
there
will
be
a
small
number
of
a
small
number
of
underlying
technologies
that
are
used
for
a
very
broad
range
of
applications.
E
And,
frankly,
that's
why
you
know,
as
as
a
platform
company
we're
so
focused
on
on
making
quarter
massively
successful,
making
it
easy
for
developers
to
use
and
getting
a
larger
number
of
people
using
it,
because
that's
when
the
benefits
accrue.
But
I
guess
you
asked
just
a
question
as
well
about
you
know,
to
what
vision
are
we
working
and
I
guess
it
comes
back
to
the
the
the
problem
that
we
we
set
out
to
solve
because
you
know
you've
got
to
answer
the
question
about
you
know
why?
Blockchain?
E
What
problem
are
you
trying
to
solve
and
it
was
the
point
I
hinted
at
earlier:
it's
it's
very
clear.
What
and
what
say
what
the
bitcoin
system
gives
you
bitcoin
gives
you
a
system
that
allows
you
to
know
what
everybody
else
on
the
bitcoin
network
knows
you,
you
see
what
they
see,
how
many
bitcoins
have
been
mined
and
which
addresses
own
them.
Similarly,
you
know
on
the
ethereum
public
blockchain
again
it's
you
know.
I
know
that
what
I
see
is
what
you
see.
E
I
know
what
the
state
of
all
the
all
the
contracts
on
this
on
this
global
shared
computer
are
and
that's
kind
of
what
these
systems
are
giving
us
at
r3,
as
we
look
at
the
design
of
corda
we're
trying
to
solve
the
same
problem,
we're
trying
to
build
a
system
so
that
I
know
that
what
I
see
is
what
you
see
where
the
thing
we
see
is
the
state
of
a
deal
or
a
balance
or
a
contract
that
I
hold
in
common
with
one
or
more
counterparts
or
one
or
more
other
companies
around
the
world,
and
you
think
about
why
that's
important
and
why
that's
you
know
that.
E
E
So
we
look
at
all
the
different
all
the
different
floors,
just
full
of
computers
or
in
their
data
centers
in
jersey
city,
that
pretty
much
do
the
same
thing
as
the
computers
in
the
data
center
next
door
for
the
competitor,
the
same
systems
have
been
implemented
to
solve
the
same
problems,
and
then
we
spend
a
huge
amount
of
time
dealing
with
the
fact
that
each
system
doesn't
lead.
E
E
So
I
mean
for
us.
That's
the
you
know,
that's
that's!
That's
the
the
power
and
the
potential
of
this
technology
and
the
and
the
problem
we're
trying
to
solve.