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From YouTube: Financial Inclusion: How DLT Provides Hope For 1.7 Billion Unbanked People - Matthew Davie, Kiva
Description
There are 1.7 billion unbanked adults around the globe -- they lack even a basic savings account. However, they are served by a network of microfinance institutions (MFIs) and non-governmental organizations (NGOs) who provide them with basic financial services on the ground. To date, the data generated by these entities has not been leveraged to drive financial inclusion. Kiva is building and implementing an identity and credit history platform in Sierra Leone that federates this data and makes it usable by the broader financial services sector. Matthew will discuss Kiva's 13-year history of operating in the unbanked world, the path to bringing decentralized digital identity and credit history to areas with no internet connectivity, and the ecosystem that must develop to bring broad financial inclusion globally by 2030.
----
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A
I
want
to
get
through
a
bunch
of
stuff
and
I
like
to
build
in
time
for
questions,
so
my
name
is
Matthew
Davey
I'm,
the
managing
director
of
kind
of
technology
and
financial
inclusion
at
Kiva
and
I'll
talk
about
Kiva
in
a
minute,
but
specifically
I
kind
of
run.
The
think-tank
inside
of
Kiva
that
says:
hey
we've
worked
for
13
years
in
the
developing
world
and
let's
take
a
look
at
how
can
we
use
new
and
emerging
technologies
to
multiply
the
impact
of
that
today?
A
So
for
those
who
know
Kiva,
you
probably
know
this
type
of
story
for
those
who
don't
I
want
to
make
sure
you
get
some
context,
so
he
was
been
around
for
the
past
13
years.
It
was
started
by
a
bunch
of
folks
out
of
PayPal
who,
after
PayPal,
got
bought
by
eBay
before
it
became
PayPal
again
they
said
hey.
What
would
it
look
like
if
we
built
PayPal,
where
there's
no
technology
like
what
would
it
look
like
to
take
this
cool
thing?
That's
happening
in
technology
and
again
zoom
back.
This
is
13
years
ago.
A
This
is
2005.
How
could
we
use
the
type
of
thing
that
PayPal
is
doing
in
the
first
world
to
bring
impact
to
the
third
world
and
really
what
they
came
up
with?
Was
the
concept
of
Kiva,
which
is
a
marketplace
where
people
like
us
can
crowd
fund
micro
loans
that
can
then
be
dispersed
to
unbanked
customers
to
people
who
have
zero
access,
usually
zero
access
to
electricity
and
to
obviously
internet
but
I'm,
definitely
zero
access
to
financial
services.
A
There's
no
bank
branch,
they
could
go
to
there's
no
mobile
money
provider
for
them
and
what
we
do.
I
love
this
photo.
This
came
from
this
holiday
between
Thanksgiving
and
now
we
started
running
our
holiday
campaigns
and
hope
is
a
big
theme,
but
really
what
we
like
to
think
that
we
do
and
what
we
actually
do
is
we
enable
people
to
provide
hope
for
people
who
might
otherwise
not
have
it
and
the
specific
case
in
this
woman
here
this
is
not
just
some
stalker.
A
This
is
a
Kiva
borrower
and
she
literally
needed
a
bike
so
that
she
could
grow
her
delivery
business
where
she
delivers
food
goods
so
she's,
instead
of
just
running
a
storefront,
she
actually
wants
to
deliver
to
people's
homes
for
elderly
and
sick
and
people
who
cannot
get
out
to
the
market.
So,
let's
suppose
you
don't
know
Kiva
for
those
who
do
and
for
those
who
don't.
This
is
what
it
looks
like.
A
We
have
over
two
and
a
half
million
borrowers
and
I'm
going
to
talk
about
stats
in
a
minute,
but
you
can
go
through
and
you
can
filter
down
to
any
type
of
impact
you
want
to
have.
Do
you
want
to
fund
refugees?
Would
you
like
to
fund
refugee
women?
Would
you
like
to
fund
refugee
women
who
are
single
mothers,
specifically
just
in
Jordan
who
have
fled
Syria?
You
can
basically
get
as
narrow
an
impact
as
you
want
to
focus
on
for
your
charity
and
you
can
fund
a
loan
for
this
person.
A
So
you
can
see
you
can
lend
$25
she's
down
here
in
the
bottom
she's
trying
to
raise.
She
has
five
hundred
dollars
to
go
so
it
looks
like
she
was
trying
to
raise
like
eight
hundred
dollars
and
once
that
loan
gets
funded,
Kiva
does
the
entire
front
end
and
then
we
partner
for
the
back
ends.
We
literally
it
looks
like
a
tech
company
and
the
front
end.
Is
we
go?
A
We
crowd
fund
these
loans
and
I'm
going
to
talk
about
the
analog
world
in
a
minute
and
I
know
I
keep
putting
off
talking
about
some
of
these
things.
The
backend
of
this,
then,
is
we
partner
with
over
500
institutions
in
85
plus
countries
to
actually
physically
in
most
cases,
that
is
somebody
getting
on
a
scooter
with
a
wad
of
cash
in
a
notebook
going
out
to
a
village
to
actually
fill
the
end
of
this.
A
So
somebody
who
works
for
a
microfinance
institution-
that's
one
of
his
partners,
actually
went
out
in
the
field
and
got
her
story
and
got
her
photos
and
got
her
consent.
Did
everything
right
but
brought
her
basically
did
all
of
the
infrastructure
to
bring
her
to
the
digital
world
so
that
she
can
be
reached
by
someone
like
me
who
wants
to
fund
a
loan
for
her
and
I
actually
helped
actually
help
fund
her
loan.
A
This
is
what
it
actually
looks
like.
So
when
we
talk
about
microfinance,
this
is
a
bunch
of
loans
happening
right
now,
so
the
woman
on
the
right
side
over
here
in
the
red
shirt
she's,
actually
an
MFI,
a
microfinance
institution
agent.
She
works
for
one
called
brac,
which
is
in
a
bunch
of
countries.
She
in
the
morning
got
on
a
scooter
from
whatever
capital
city
they
work
in,
like
15
countries,
so
I'm,
not
sure
exactly
which
one
this
is.
She
drives
out
to
a
village
in
that
village.
She
knows
everybody
cuz.
A
She
grew
up
in
that
village.
Usually
they
our
agents
that
are
from
that
area
and
so
the
form
of
identity
she
has.
She
does
an
identity
origination
out
there,
but
literally
the
way
we
find
out
who
is
who
is
she
knows
these
people
she's
been
going
out
there
once
a
week
for
the
past
ten
years,
helping
lend
money
out
and
collect
repayments.
Everybody
else
in
this
room
is
someone
who
is
either
taking
out
a
loan
or
repaying
a
loan
in
cash
and
the
data
that's
recorded
out.
A
There
is
in
that
black
notebook
on
the
table,
so
we
talk
about
a
ledger
and
a
distributed
ledger.
This
is
what
it
looks
like
right
now
in
the
developing
world.
Is
that
each
of
these
distributed
people
has
a
physical
paper
ledger
and
best-case
scenario
is
that
the
data
from
that
ledger
gets
back
to
some
type
of
proprietary
database.
So
this
was
the
big
aha
moment
for
us
at
Kiva.
You
know
13
years
1.3
billion
dollars
in
85
countries.
Was
this
or
some
version
of
this
happens?
A
An
identity
is
read
and
credit
files
are
rebuilt
from
scratch.
Every
time
one
of
these
rooms
gets
assembled
with
people
in
it,
but
every
time
it's
built,
they're
trying
to
figure
out
who
are
the
people
in
the
room
they're
trying
to
figure
out
can
I
verify
that
that's
that
person
again
right
now
is
just
on
the
agent
who
knows
these
people
and
then
they're
recording
data
into
a
paper
ledger
that
if
these
same
people
got
in
a
room
tomorrow
with
a
different
MFI
agent,
it
would
be
a
different
identity
and
a
totally
separate
credit
history.
A
It
doesn't
tie
together
and
the
reason
we
care
about
that
is
Kiva
and
the
reason
that
we're
trying
to
help
solve
this.
This
problem
that
I'm
gonna
talk
about
in
a
minute
is
the
way
the
data
flows
today
is
a
blocker
for
us
and
for
others
like
us
to
deploy
to
deploy
more
capital
to
the
unbanked
world.
It's
a
blocker
because
we're
trying
to
price
risk
we're
trying
to
figure
out.
A
What's
the
chance,
this
person
is
going
to
default,
and
should
we
ask
somebody
in
the
US
or
in
Europe
to
fund
their
loan
right
now
we
only
get
a
narrow
snapshot
of
that
data,
because
these
notebooks
again,
even
if
they
get
reported
back
each
organization,
only
sees
their
notebook.
They
don't
see
the
conglomeration
of
all
the
notebooks,
so.
A
Here's
how
we
got
to
defining
the
problem,
the
way
we
did
and
I'm
gonna
talk
to
the
five
steps.
There's
a
couple
things
we've
seen
over
the
13
years
at
Kiba.
The
first
one
is
it's
a
truly
global
problem:
we've
operated
in
85
countries,
so
we're
not
going
to
build
a
solution
and
we're
not
gonna
build
a
solution
that
is
proprietary
and
only
works.
For
one
scenario
we
looked
across
and
said:
what
are
the
systemic
problems
that
are
blocking
us
and
others
like
us
from
bringing
more
financial
services
to
the
unbanked
populations?
A
The
second
one
was
their
real
existing
infrastructure.
So,
unlike
what
my
conception
was
coming
into
this
problem
at
the
beginning
of
like
oh,
there
is
no
infrastructure
there.
You
actually
see
we
have
five
hundred
plus
financial
partners,
microfinance
institutions
and
small
neo
banks
that
we
work
with
to
do
that,
that
last
mile
delivery
of
capital
and
collecting
the
data,
there
is
already
infrastructure,
there's
more
than
10,000
microfinance
institutions
around
the
world
that
today
are
serving
these
unbanked
customers.
So
you
don't
need
to
start
from
scratch.
A
You
need
to
find
a
way
to
leverage
their
operations
to
hopefully
skip
a
couple
generations
of
technology
and
then
the
third,
the
third
finding
that
we
started
from
is
at
the
rate
they're
being
lent.
Today,
these
people
are
overly
credit
worthy.
So
across
the
last
13
years,
with
1.3
billion
dollars
of
land,
we
have
is
actually
a
3.1
percent
as
a
ninety
six
point:
nine
percent
repayment
rate,
but
for
context
us
home
loans
in
q1
of
2018,
s-21,
an
outstanding
economy
we're
at
three
and
a
half
percent
words
of
length,
1
and
q1.
A
So
when
we're
talking
about
giving
loans
to
Syrian
refugees
in
Jordan
and
a
lot
of
these
defaults
are,
Iraq
became
a
war
zone
and
literally
we
just
forgave
a
bunch
of
loans
and
wrote
them
off.
That's
included
in
this.
These
people
are
highly
highly
credit
worthy
and
as
most
because
they're
underserved
in
terms
of
credit
at
some
point
defaults
would
go
up,
but
it
was
a
neat
finding
now
to
say:
look
at
the
levels
they're
at
now.
A
There
is
a
lot
of
headroom
because
there
is
a
very
low
delinquency
rate
we
had
3%
defaults,
their
cost
of
capital
is
35%,
it
does
not
cost
32%
to
get
on
a
scooter
and
drive
the
cash
out
and
actually
run
the
process
of
banking.
These
people
and
then
the
final
aha.
We
had
before
I'll
start
talking
about
our
solution,
or
this
is
that
we
see
as
interesting
is
two
and
a
half
million
people.
A
You
know
back
on
this
line:
1.3
billion
dollars
two
and
a
half
million
people,
I,
wouldn't
undo
that
impact
for
anything
and
we're
continuing
to
push
down
that
path.
But
we
do
have
the
self-awareness
to
recognize
that
today,
there's
1.7
billion
adults,
it's
31
percent
of
the
world's
adult
population
do
not
have
access
to
a
financial
account.
That
means
that
that
means
they
operate
in
cash.
Only
like
I'll
give
you
some
fundamental
things
of
what
that's
like,
but
this
is
not
like.
This
does
not
include
people
who
have
a
Mobile
Money
account.
A
This
is
no
access
to
any
financial
product
or
service
outside
of
these
informal
cash
based
economies,
so
think
about
trying
to
manage
recurring
payments.
You're
trying
to
send
your
kids
to
school,
it
doesn't
cost
a
lot.
It
costs
50
bucks
a
year,
maybe,
but
you
make
300
dollars
a
year.
How
are
you
gonna
make
monthly
payments
when
you're
trying
to
store
in
cash?
How
are
you
going
to
start
a
business
when
you
need
some
form
of
leverage
when
you
operate
only
in
cash
when
credit
is
not
available
to
you?
A
A
It's
incredibly
hard
to
get
a
better
education
to
get
a
better
health
outcome
like
you
can
just
run
down
the
list,
you
don't
have
insurance,
and
so
this
is
what
we
came
down
to
here's
the
five
steps-
and
this
is
again
across
our
85
countries
and
our
1.3
billion
Len.
These
are
five
things
that
are
systemic
problems
for
those
who
are
unbanked.
A
The
first
two
really
is
about
access
to
the
banking
system
and
like
15
20
years
ago,
I
would
have
been
talking
to
you
about,
like
you
know
what
you're
right
it's
too
expensive
to
go:
build
bank
branches
for
a
village
where
there's
only
200
people
like
I,
get
why
they're
not
going
to
be
systemic
lis
included.
Fortunately,
today
we're
talking
about
internet
service
and
access
to
a
smartphone
or
a
feature
phone
to
be
able
to
get
basic
financial
products
and
services,
and
we
look
at
those
first,
two
NSA.
A
The
next
two
really
are
about
compliance
and
enabling
flow
of
funds.
I'm
gonna
skip
those
and
come
back
to
those
in
a
sec.
Really
it
comes
down
to.
If
you
could
reach
them
with
the
banking
sector,
with
one
into
it
with
device
access
and
Internet
service,
you
should
be
able
to
flow
the
funds
to
them
like
it.
A
For
me,
as
an
example,
I
would
go
to
the
Miss,
a
hey
guys,
I,
want
you
to
loan
a
thousand
dollars
to
this
person,
and
they
would
look
at
me
and
say:
Matt
I
would
love
to
do
that,
but
I
am
NOT
allowed
to
do
that.
It
would
be
illegal.
I
will
lose
my
banking
license
as
Bank
of
America.
If
I
do
that,
and
it
comes
down
to
numbers
three
and
four,
the
identity
that
I'm
using
with
Kiva
works.
A
Fine
for
Kiva
excuse
me
and
works
fine
for
me
as
someone
who's
thinking
about
Kiva
as
charity,
but
for
Bank
of
America.
They
have
to
pass
and
no
your
customer
compliance
check,
and
that
is
not
a
bad
thing.
That's
what
keeps
you
from
accidentally
making
a
loan
to
a
terrorist
or
accidentally
making
a
loan
to
someone
who's
trying
to
scam.
A
You
is
that
these
financial
institutions
that
are
regulated
need
to
pass
and
know
your
customer
test,
and
so
their
level
of
trust
and
identity
necessary
is
much
higher
than
what
is
needed
at
the
base
of
the
pyramid
would
reduce
deploying
charity.
The
second
one
is,
they
would
say:
Matt
I,
don't
know
how
to
price
this
risk,
and
not
only
my
compliance
for
having
to
know
my
customer,
but
my
fiduciary
duty
to
you
Matt
is
to
make
sure
that
I
don't
money
accidentally
that
I
can
specify
the
risk
and
they
would
look
and
say
it's
great.
A
That
Kiva
has
this
credit
file,
but
I
know
this
is
not
a
complete
credit
file.
I
know
that
I
could
not
stand
up
in
court
and
defend
that.
This
was
a
responsible
lend
for
me
to
allow
my
client
to
do
if
we
can
solve
for
numbers,
3,
&,
4,
again,
1,
&
2.
We
see
as
solved
problems
whether
it's
Elon
Musk
with
StarLink,
whether
it's
Google
or
Facebook,
with
a
project
lunar
Internet,
org,
there's
plenty
of
reasons
that
device
and
Internet
service
are
gonna,
get
to
be
near
ubiquitous
by
2030.
A
If
we
can
solve
not
just
Kiva
like
if
the
community
of
people
who
wants
to
help
bank
1.7
billion
people
can
provide
a
systemic
solution
for
identity
and
credit
history,
all
that's
left
is
then
banks
to
be
greedy.
If
right
now,
the
default
rate
is
3
percent
and
it's
currently
35
percent
credit
rates.
That
means
there's
thirty.
Two
percent
yield
there
take
out
10%
for
the
cost
to
the
fill
capital.
A
The
only
place
on
the
planet
where
these
trillions
of
dollars
exist
that
could
be
applied
for
financial
products
and
services
is
inside
of
that
regulated
financial
services
market.
If
we
cannot
make
it
compatible
with
Bank
of
America
and
HSBC
and
Deutsche
Bank,
we
will
never
be
able
to
serve
as
many
people
as
we
need
to
serve.
So
this
is
what
someone's
data
profile
and
the
unbanked
world
best-case
scenario
going
back
to
that
black
physical
ledger
that
the
woman
had
in
the
room
where
she
was
collecting
data
best
case.
A
It
makes
it
back
into
ERP
or
Mis
database
and
it's
stored
there
and
that's
great
at
least
now.
There
is
some
digital
data
about
these
customers.
The
problem.
None
of
this
is
compatible
and
I
put
these
specifically
in
these
buckets,
because
I
wanted
to
start
from
the
base
of
the
pyramid
as
a
refugee,
someone
fleeing
Syria
showing
up
in
Jordan
as
a
refugee,
all
of
their
data
from
Syria
is
gone
because
their
identity
from
Syria
is
gone
because
they
tore
up
their
passport
because
if
they
got
caught
with
their
passport
they
were
gonna
get
killed.
A
That's
the
reason
they
fled
as
it
as
a
refugee.
They
can
do
all
this
work
inside
the
refugee
camp
with
UNHCR
and
USAID
and
UK
ID,
and
the
moment
they
go
to
the
first
MFI
they're
coming
and
they're,
like
you,
have
zero
financial
history,
even
though
World
Food,
Program
and
others
and
and
Kiva
partners
do
give
loans
and
the
in
the
in
refugee
camps.
None
of
that
data
makes
it
so
they're
starting
from
scratch
at
the
MFI
level,
okay,
fine
at
least
you're.
A
A
The
rung
is
going
from
an
MFI
and
mobile
money
up
to
a
credit
union
or
a
bank
and
there's
an
example
I
like
to
use
that
this
woman
in
Kenya
who's
been
a
Kiva
borrower,
since
we
started
so
for
13
years
and
I'm
just
using
data
from
10
years
over
a
10-year
period,
she
borrowed
$25,000,
and
these
are
in
little
300
to
500
dollar
loans
and
has
a
perfect
repayment
rate,
and
she
was
using
this.
She
started
out.
A
She
was
gonna,
buy
a
cow
and
sell
the
milk
and
then
eventually
she
bought
two
cows
and
she
started
having
a
little
bit
of
farm.
She
was
able
to
buy
with
cash
she
saved
up
in
cash.
She
bought
a
little
parcel
of
land
next
to
her
farm,
which
is
on
the
main,
drag
in
the
little
village.
He
lives
in
outside
and
I
Roby
in
Kenya.
A
She
wanted
to
go:
get
a
loan
to
build
retail
space
on
the
first
floor
for
a
couple
of
just
shops
and
then
put
two
of
the
two
levels
of
apartments
above
it.
This
is
not
expensive.
She
needed
a
twenty
five
thousand
dollar
loan.
That's
not
the
type
of
loan
that
microfinance
institutions
or
banks
give
that's
the
type
that
sorry
microfinance
or
mobile.
Money
gives
that's
more
credit
unions,
regional
banks
and
national
banks.
She
went
there
with
a
printout
of
all
of
her
Kiva
loan
history
of
like
half
taken
out
$25,000
to
have
perfect
repayment
history.
A
This
is
over
ten
years,
like
I'm,
a
great
customer
and
the
bank
said
we
can't
give
you
any
money
like
you
have
zero
credit
history.
This
is
the
systemic
problem
that
Kiva
wants
to
solve.
Is
that
all
this
data
that
exists
today
doesn't
allow
you
to
move
one
step
up
the
wrong,
and
so
these
people
are
systemically
blocked
from
moving
up,
and
likewise
the
capital
is
systemically
blocked
from
moving
down
that
we
have
trillions
of
dollars
at
these
international
banks.
A
How
do
we
leverage
that
to
get
to
a
spot
where
the
data
moves
and
the
people
can
move
up
the
chain
and
really,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
what
this
ends
up
really
being
about
is
where
the
money
is
being
able
to
get
to
where
the
people
are.
It's
you
know
we're
not
gonna
see
these
people
become
customers
of
HSBC.
A
That
suddenly
is
worth
something
can
help
her
move
up
and
get
a
bigger
loan,
and
so
coming
back
to
this-
and
this
was
a
weird
realization
for
us-
is
that
really
what
it
comes
back
to
is
identity
that
what's
blocking
our
ability
to
tie
these
data
streams
together
to
tie
together
her
MFI
transactions
and
I,
took
off
the
refugee
stuff,
because
I
needed
to
put
a
head
shot
there?
What's
blocking
our
ability
to
tie
it
together
is
not
that
it's
in
unique
databases
what's
blocking
it
is
that
me
was
one
MFI
and
me
with
another.
A
Mfi
are
two
totally
unique
people
when
you're
trying
to
stitch
them
together,
and
so
we
need
a
unique
global
identifier
to
be
able
to
tie
these
together.
If
you
do
that,
then
you
you
can
stitch
together.
All
of
these
tiny
credit
histories
and
say
now:
I
have
a
complete
credit
history
and
the
file
is
thick
enough
to
actually
generate
whatever
our
version
of
a
FICO
score
would
be
in
the
developing
world
cool,
so
elan
must
go
solve
the
first
two.
A
Let's
get
a
system
to
solve
a
second
two,
and
then
we're
talking
about
is
just
about
letting
the
system
do
what
it
wants.
I'll
take
questions
right
at
the
end.
Give
me
just
a
minute
and
I'll
answer
that
I'm
gonna
zoom
through
these
to
make
sure
I
have
time
for
these
questions,
but
we
came
almost
by
accident
to
using
two
centralized
Ledger's
and
decentralized
stuff
that
we
are
not
experts
in
it.
A
We're
experts
in
financial
inclusion
and
the
85
countries
who
work
in
but
we're
finally
out
of
spot
now-
and
this
is
not
necessarily
new
tech-
we're
just
all
seeing
the
utility
of
it
pretty
new,
but
what's
great
about
too
centralized
identifier
is,
and
if
you
haven't
looked
at
it,
you
should
look
at
hyper
ledger
indeed,
because
of
its
implementation
of
the
centralized
identifiers,
or
you
should
look
at
w3c
and
the
World
Wide
Web
Consortium,
and
what
they're
doing
to
define
these
standards?
What's
really
neat
about.
A
Give
me
Matt
the
ability
to
hold
a
wallet
of
these
D
IDs
and
to
keep
using
proprietary
IDs
with
each
person
I
interact
with,
but
I'm
now
using
a
system
that
allows
me
to
prove
that
all
of
those
mats
are
actually
the
same
person,
and
so,
if
I
keep
on
doing
all
my
stuff
with
my
MFIs
and
with
with
UNHCR
as
a
refugee,
at
whatever
point
I
get
an
identity
from
the
government
that
could
pass
the
KYC
check.
That
makes
it
so
Bank
of
America
could
give
me
a
loan
by
design.
A
What
this
does
and
it
in
when
we
think
about
this
as
two
problems,
we
think
about
the
any
piece
in
the
credit
piece
separately,
because
if
we
gave
identity,
that
was
only
usable
for
credit-
that's
pretty
narrow-minded
of
us,
but
give
you
an
identity
where
we're
tying
credit
to
it,
but
that
then
they
could
use
this
identity
for
anything
else.
Super
valuable
and
the
analogy
I
like
to
make
is
your
driver's
license
that
I
can
use
it
to
prove
that
I'm
21?
That's
not
why
the
DMV
gave
it
to
me.
A
The
DMV
gave
it
to
me
to
say:
Matt
can
legally
drive,
but
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
other
utility
that
that
identity
has-
and
it's
only
valuable
to
me,
because
DMV
gave
me
this
card
that
I
can
use
without
them.
And
someone
chooses
to
trust
that
and
that's
exactly
what
this
system
does
and
then
this
gets
to
be
very
busy,
but
I
should
point
out:
there's
no
decentralized
ledger
in
identity.
There's
a
decentralized
ledger,
I
shouldn't
say
no.
Making
the
system
work
doesn't
need
a
ledger.
A
You
end
up
with
a
ledger
of
people
who
are
issuing
identities
attesting
to
who
they
are
on
the
ledger,
but
actually
the
data
flow
here
is
just
verifiable
credentials.
Moving
back
and
forth
of
me
being
able
to
pass
you
data
that
you
can
trust,
and
that
last
part
was
indeed
on
this
part
we're
using
hyper
ledger
fabric.
This
is
where
we
need
verifiable
credentials.
We
need
each
of
those
banks
and
MFIs
to
be
able
to
issue
some
type
of
standardized
data
format
and
then
was
different
than
identity
with
identity.
A
You
say:
Matt,
here's,
the
identity,
I
trust
and
I
can
either
produce
it
from
you
out
of
my
data
wallet
or
I
can't
and
if
I
can't
you
don't
care
what
else
I
have
in
there,
because
you're
not
going
to
trust
it
with
credit.
History
I
need
to
make
sure
that
I'm,
seeing
your
entire
credit
history
before
I,
give
you
a
loan,
and
this
is
where
to
centralize
Ledger's
and
while
we're
really
happy
with
all
the
stuff,
that's
happened
in
permissionless
networks
to
get
people
thinking
about.
A
This
is
really
really
important,
because
this
is
the
way
that
Bank
of
America
eventually
can
trust
that
I
haven't
altered.
If
there
was
a
default
10
years
ago
or
if
I
did
make
all
my
repayments,
that
a
decentralized
ledger
and
cryptography
is
what
allows
10
years
down
the
line,
someone
to
trust
data
from
a
source
they
wouldn't
want
to
trust,
and
so
that
overused
phrase
of
trust
in
a
trustless
environment.
That's
exactly
what
this
gives
us.
A
So
the
center
part
is
just
there's
one
ledger
where
I
would
put
all
of
my
credit
ater
or
where
I
will
put
all
of
my
credit
data.
Everything
else
does
verifiable
credentials
like
using
the
ledger
to
be
like
this
is
all
of
Matt's
credit
data
and
he
hasn't
messed
with
it.
But
everything
else
just
looks
like
verifiable
credentials
talked
a
lot
about
this,
but
what
this
really
empowers-
and
this
is
where
we
ended
up
a
decentralized.
It
empowers
interoperable
identities.
A
Keep
using
proprietary
identifiers
with
each
person
just
make
sure
those
proprietary
identifiers
are
tied
into
a
system
that
eventually
can
stitch
them
together
and
that's
what
decentralized
identifiers
do
giving
the
ability
to
trust
data
from
other
entities
that
you
don't
have
to
trust
the
entity
itself.
So,
instead
of
us
having
to
go
out
and
say
trust,
Kiva
or
Trust,
you
know
if
we
built
our
version
of
Equifax
trust,
Kiva
facts,
because
we're
gonna
make
sure
all
the
data
is
there.
A
We're
saying:
don't
trust
anybody,
just
trust
that
this
is
all
of
the
data
and
it
hasn't
been
altered,
because
that's
actually
what
you
need
to
trust
really
important,
and
this
doesn't
work
in
a
centralized
system
where
you
need
to
have
a
round
trip.
Api
call
every
time
you
want
to
trust
the
data.
The
ability
to
work
offline
is
incredibly
important
because
we
do
believe
internet
access
will
get
there,
but
right
now
the
woman
driving
out
with
her
scooter
with
a
notebook
she
was
probably
out
of
cell
service,
even
with
how
fast
it's
expanding.
A
What's
really
neat
about
cryptography
and
I
won't
hear
more
on
this,
but
when
there's
a
cryptographic
signature
you
know
who
gave
that
second
assuring
that
it
can't
be
forged
and
if
I
control
that
identity
I
can
make
that
signature
offline,
and
so
literally
as
long
as
I
take
my
identity
offline
with
me
and
you
take
yours,
we
can
generate
a
credit
file
about
I
loaned.
You
$10
or
you
made
a
$10
payment
and
we
can
do
that
all
securely
offline
and
it
eventually
does
need
to
get
broadcast
back
online.
A
So
if
we
can
do
all
that
stuff,
then
it's
a
matter
of
time
before
funds
will
flow
to
the
unbanked
world
and
I
haven't
talked
at
all
about
specifically
what
key
was
gonna
do
because
I
don't
want
to
get
into
that
too
much.
But
I'll
tell
you
exactly
what
we're
doing
right
now:
we're
working
with
the
government
of
Sierra
Leone,
a
small
West
African
country
of
seven
million
people
and
with
un
capital
Development
Fund
and
United
Nations
Development
Programme.
All
the
stuff
I've
been
talking
about
we're
actually
implementing
that
on
the
ground.
A
Right
now
in
Sierra
Leone
and
over
the
course
of
2019,
their
entire
financial
sector
will
become
run.
On
top
of
this
decentralized
ledger
for
credit
and
identity.
They
have
government
identity,
they
have
5.1
million
it's
every
adult
in
the
country.
They
have
digital
IDs,
they're
gonna
issue.
All
those
IDs
into
this
indi
system
we're
building
their
Z
the
applications
on
top
of
it
for
banks
and
MF
eyes
to
access
it
for
human
beings
to
access
and
use
it
we're
rebuilding
their
central
banks.
A
Credit
bureau
are
the
only
credit
bureau
in
the
country
which
today
is
an
Excel
spreadsheet,
not
joke.
Like
actual
Excel
spreadsheet
I
think
it's
Excel
2007
we're
gonna
build
this
rebuild
the
entire
thing.
On
top
of
this
hyper
ledger
fabric
implementation,
so
that
over
the
course
of
2019
we
spend
the
first
half
of
the
year,
bootstrapping
the
technology
and
infrastructure
form
and
on
the
second
half
we
work
with
them
to
help
onboard
every
financial
institution
in
the
country,
banks
and
MF
eyes,
which
is
only
like
28
entities.
A
It's
not
that
big,
but
to
get
to
where
we
can
prove
this
flow
of
funds
so
that
in
2020
we
can
have
a
system
running,
and
this
is
what
we
really
want
to
prove
like
akiva
everything
else
as
technology
to
help
enable
this
last
piece
if
we
can
get
and
start
scaling
flow
of
funds
to
the
world's
unbanked.
This
is
what
unlocks
human
potential.
A
The
other
thing
that's
gonna
happen
is,
as
we
do
it
in
Sierra
Leone,
and
hopefully
we
and
others
can
do
it
in
a
bunch
of
places
around
the
world.
Once
you
get
identity
in
place,
you
can
start
hanging
a
whole
bunch
of
other
utility
off
of
it.
So
you
can
hang
education,
healthcare,
insurance.
You
know
physical
assets
and
voting
records.
All
of
these
things
work
as
soon
as
someone
has
a
verifiable
identities.
A
We
hope
to
see
not
us
we're
not
planning
on
implementing
any
of
this,
but
we
hope
that
once
we
have
the
use
case,
that
gets
identity
in
people's
hands
and
they
have
and
are
using
a
digital
ID
that,
whether
it's
the
government
or
other
partners
come
in
and
build
a
bunch
of
these
other
things
in
the
developing
world
and
I
like
to
end
on
this
one
before
I
get
to
questions
like
the
reason
we're
doing
all
of
this
for
that
flow
of
funds.
This
is
a
great
example.
This
woman
opened
her
shop.
A
She
was
struggling
because
she
didn't
have
enough
inventory
and
couldn't
get
credit.
She
got
a
Kiva
loan.
She
now
has
four
shops.
That's
her
granddaughter.
Her
granddaughter
goes
to
school
because
she
had
access
to
those
loans.
If
she
did
not
have
access
to
those
loans,
her
first
stand
would
have
gone
under.
She
would
not
have
four
stands
today
and
she
would
not
have
money
to
fund
her
granddaughter
going
to
elementary
school.
This
is
the
reason
it's
important
for
us
to
go
to
the
developing
world
all
right.
B
A
A
Okay,
yeah?
We
looked
across
every
technology
and
hoped
not
to
build
this
technology
ourselves.
Kiva
is
a
technology
company
for
financial
inclusion,
but
we're
not
an
identity
company.
The
reason
we
ended
up
back
at
hyper
ledger
and
we're
very
close
with
the
folks
at
sovereign,
which
they're
doing
most
of
the
hyper
ledger.
Indeed,
maintenance
is
that
we
wanted
two
things.
A
But
for
us,
when
we're
talking
about
scaling
to
1.7
billion
people,
we
need
everything
to
be
interoperable,
and
so
we
leaned
towards
what
does
the
system?
That's
gonna,
be
open
source
and
we'll
play
nice
in
terms
of
data
with
everybody
else
down
the
road.
We
ended
up
we're
rolling
our
own
on
top
of
Indy,
but
it's
not
much.
It's
almost
no
modifications
on
top
of
an
L
Andy
yeah.
C
C
A
A
Yep
so,
and
so
what
I
was
saying,
yeah
I
was
actually
trying
to
get
to.
That
was
a
all
the
data
here,
my
data
as
a
user
of
the
system.
My
credit
data
is
only
encrypted
and
decrypted
by
me,
so
I
own,
that
and
I
choose
when
it's
decrypted
when
we
think
about
how
is
credit
data
price
like
how
does
money
flow
and
how
do
I
derive
value
and
I
just
use
money
or
fiat
for
value?
It's
really.
A
When
someone
wants
to
read
my
credit
file,
then
it's
worthwhile
to
pay,
and
so
that's
what
makes
it
valuable
for
me
to
maintain
my
identity
is
that
when
I
go
to
do
a
financial
product
or
service,
someone's
gonna
need
my
identity
to
unlock
my
credit
now
then
extend
that
one
step
further.
Let's
say
it
was:
let's
say
it
was
ten
cents
for
a
credit
check
in
Sierra
Leone.
My
hope
is
that
the
person
who
owns
the
data
about
themselves
decides
to
add
a
markup
to
use
their
data
so
literally,
not
just
passively
but
actively
monetizing.
A
Their
data
like
oh,
you
want
to
do
a
credit
check
of
me.
That's
great,
like
I,
have
set
my
default
that
you're
gonna
pay
me
two
cents
to
do
a
credit
check
of
me.
Now,
that's
a
little
recursive
a
reflexive
because
they'll
just
add
that
price
into
the
cost
of
my
loan.
But
it's
really
important
that
the
user
is
in
control
of
that
and
beyond.
Just
saying
yes
or
no
saying
yes
and
here's
the
cost
that
you're
gonna
pay
me
and
the
same
goes
for
the
banks
or
MFIs
I.
A
D
E
Have
you
taken
into
account
the
fact
that
people
will
realize
a
good
credit
history
will
allow
them
to
get
a
loan?
Okay.
Now
that
will
come
institutions
who
will
promise
people
hey?
We
will
give
you
a
good
credit
history
so
that
you
can
get
a
loan
and
like
have
you
thought
about
this
of
bad
players
coming
into
the
picture
and
giving
good
like
they
will
give
small
loans.
You
know
like
I,
just
give
out
the
loan,
and
it
gives
me
back
and
he
gives
me
back
the
interest.
E
A
Maybe
if
I
divide
this
into
two
questions,
so
one
is
there's
been
a
fundamental
problem
and
this
led
to
the
MFI
meltdown
that
happened
like
five
or
seven
years
ago
was.
Basically,
regulators
were
all
over
the
banks
and
we're
not
touching
the
more
informal
sector
at
all,
and
so
what
happened
is
as
they
started,
forcing
credit
reporting
for
banks.
All
of
the
defaults
just
went
down
to
the
MFI
level.
A
These
MFIs
got
crushed,
but
that's
one
problem
and
that's
where,
if
you
can
have
a
decentralized
system,
everybody
can
be
subject
to
the
same
regulations
that
it's
nominal
then
for
the
government
to
say.
If
they're
reporting
I
can
mandate,
if
there's
a
system
they
can
afford
to
report
to,
and
they
can
report
to
now,
I
can
enforce.
They
have
to
report,
and
I
can
take
away
that
regulatory
risk.
The
second
one
bad
actors
in
the
system-
and
this
is
a
very
good
reason-
to
use
decentralization
and
decentralizing
trust,
essential
Authority.
A
If
we
built
Kiva
facts,
our
version
of
Equifax,
the
implicit
and
explicit
expectation
is
you're.
Now
trusting
that
we
have
all
of
the
data
decentralization
allows
the
inspector
or
the
verifier,
and
now
it
allows
the
new
lender
to
know
they're
seen
all
of
the
data
and
then
to
choose
which
data
they
want
to
use.
So
the
JPMorgan
Chase
example
using
the
two
extremes.
A
What
I
want
to
trust
or
not-
and
that's
really
really
important,
because
anything
else
forces
people
to
trust
someone,
and
we
want
to
have
a
system
where
you
know
it's
all
there
and
you
can
trust
the
data.
But
then
you
choose
what
data
to
trust,
and
so
that's
what
that
bad
actor
example.
What
would
happen
is
what
a
couple
of
banks
get
duped.
A
Yep
so
great
question,
so
we're
setting
up
our
own
implementation
of
Indy.
That
looks
very
much
like
the
sovereign
Trust
framework
and
I
work
very
closely
with
the
guys
at
sovereign.
We
would
love
to
be
working
closer
with
them,
we're
a
very
bad
customer
for
someone
like
sovereign,
because
we
have
immediate
demands
for
things
to
happen
in
country
and
it's
like
we
would
just
be
unreasonable
customers
for
them,
so
we're
planning
to
stay
interoperable
with
them
and
the
hope
is
not
just
sovereign.
A
Our
hope
is
that,
as
things
expand,
that
all
of
these
identity
networks
can
really
just
interoperate
with
each
other,
whether
they
all
swallow
each
other
up
and
become
one
global
open
source
here
is
open
source
to
centralize
identity
or
not.
We
hope
that's
the
case,
but
we
just
want
to
make
sure
at
least
we're
interoperable.
So,
no
so
we're
rolling
our
own
indie,
primarily
because
talking
to
Nathan
and
team
and
sovereign,
it
became
very
apparent
very
quickly
like
we
just
have.
A
These
immediate
needs
that
it's
unreasonable
to
ask
you
guys
to
drop
your
product
roadmap
and
to
get
these
things
implemented.
So
we
can
go
specifically
in
country,
we're
setting
it
up.
The
government
of
Sierra
Leone
will
own
some
part
of
it.
Long
term
like
we
want
them
running
nodes
in
the
network,
but
also
we're
working
with
un
CDF
and
UNDP
and
like
15
other
relief
agencies
that
are
in
country
to
have
all
of
us
participating
in
the
network
in
countries
that
we
have
a
truly
decentralized
one
in
country.
A
F
Dude
nail
down
like
a
decentralized
identity
network,
and
we
have
a
truly
federated
data
flow,
looking
at
kind
of
the
financial
aspects
of
it.
Now,
how
does
this
change
the
risk
profiles
of
individuals
as
well
as
change
the
trust
model,
so
that
you
can
actually
get
that
flow
of
funds?
I
mean
how
do
we
expect
that
to
change
yep.
A
A
So
that's
one
thing
you
say:
I
know
this
hasn't
been
changed
and
then
to
the
point
before
now,
I
could
decide
who,
in
the
system,
I
want
to
trust,
because
I
know
that
I
can
trust
the
data
that
doesn't
exist
today
and
I.
Guess
everything
about
else
comes
down
to
over
time
that
look
today
when
we
implement
we're
not
going
to
go
write
a
bunch
of
historical
data,
because
you
shouldn't
do
that.
You
shouldn't
take
historical
data
and
say
that
it
now
goes
on
to
a
immutable
ledger.
Cuz,
you
have
to
trust.
A
I
didn't
mess
with
it
over
time,
so
it's
just
gonna
take
2
or
3
years.
This
is
why
we
don't
have
a
pricing
model
up
front.
This
is
why
we're
not
issuing
any
tokens
in
this
system.
This
is
why,
when
we
talk
about
integrating
the
sovereign
I'm
like,
hopefully
it's
a
wait
and
see
that
this
just
needs
time
to
get
up
to
scale,
so
we
see
how
it
actually
works.
We
have
our
theory
of
change.
A
Yeah
one
thing
I'll
say
is
nice,
for
those
who
aren't
in
the
developing
world
to
understand
is
that
when
you
go
to
the
developing
world
one
of
the
nice
things
is,
you
say:
here's
the
technology,
and
then
how
is
this
going
to
grow?
The
government
is
going
to
mandate
this
to
happen
that
this
is
not
going
and
saying.
Mf
eyes
are
gonna
want
to
use
this
in
Sierra
Leone.
This
is
the
Minister
of
Finance
and
the
governor
of
the
central
bank
are
rewriting
the
credit
reporting
rules
to
force
everybody
being
like.
A
We
will
revoke
your
charter.
If
you
don't
use
this
system
and
that's
again,
that's
not
how
most
people
think
about
too
centralized
ledger
stuff,
and
the
technology
has
nothing
to
do
with
that
compliance
angle,
but
that
compliance
angle
in
the
unbanked
world
is
really
interesting
and
a
good
reason
to
think
about
going
there.
Even
if
you
don't
care
about
the
developed
world,
is
that
if
you
look
at
your
risks,
your
adoption
risk
is
almost
zero.
A
Once
you
can
get
adoption
sorted
out,
which
is
not
easy,
takes
a
lot
of
hand-holding
and
a
lot
of
busy
work
and
working
with
these
UN
agencies,
but
that's
one
of
the
best
things
about
the
developing
world
is
that,
why
do
we
know
we
can
get
5.1
million
people
using
this
in
Sierra
Leone,
because
the
government
is
mandating
it
like
this?
This
is
what
the
law
is.
This
is
how
their
idea
agency
works
is
how
their
credit
bureau
works.
I'll
take
yours
is
a
softball
that
I'm
done.
D
A
We
could
do
that.
The
main
reason
I,
don't
is
that
I
think
Brian
and
Dave
here
at
hyper
ledger
would
just
cut
my
head
off
if
I
did
that,
because
if
we
break
mean
some
core
protocol
stuff,
the
other
reason
I.
So
primary
reason
is
we're
trying
to
make
sure
that
we're
not
trying
to
build
an
advantage
for
Kiva
here
and
if
we
took
our
historical
data
and
start
a
bootstrapping.
The
system
with
historical
data,
that's
building
an
advantage
for
Kiva,
and
we
don't
want
that.
A
We
want
to
be
able
to
deploy
more
capital,
but
we're
not
building
this
system
for
us
we're
building
the
system
because
we
need
it
to
exist
and
because
it
turns
out
that
some
of
the
larger
grant
writers
will
write
us
grant
funding
to
go,
make
it
exist
and
so
we'll
go.
Do
it
because
we're
in
that
unique
position,
but
I
do
think
so
we
could
do
it.
The
other
reason
is
fast
forward
three
years,
any
historical
data
we
write
should
be
dwarfed
by
the
amount
of
new
data
generated.
A
So
I
am
currently
like
vehemently
opposed
to
writing
historical
data
into
a
ledger.
But
you
are
correct
that
you
could
do
it
and
just
flag
it
and
say
hey
just
so.
You
know
this
was
written
after
the
fact
all
right,
I'm,
gonna,
I'll
take.
This
is
the
last
one
that
I
cut
it
off.
Cuz
I'm
Way
over
here.
A
Yeah
so
I
mean
we're
doing
a
very
heavy-handed
implementation,
but
we're
bringing
the
capacity
and
we're
gonna
help
them
set
up
the
notes,
but
then
we're
gonna
hand
off
everything
to
them
so
over
the
two
years
or
three
years
that
we're
gonna
be
in
country,
we're
brute-forcing
and
bringing
everything
they
don't
have
the
technical
capacity
to
do
this.
But
yes,
every
single
one
of
them.
Anybody
who
is
issuing
an
identity
or
is
issuing
a
credit
claim
will,
by
design,
be
set
up
as
a
node.
A
A
All
the
banks
and
MFI
is
to
be
using
this
system,
and
so
we
haven't
been
loud
about
this
because
then
people
are
like
biased.
You
know
what
are
you
giving
Bitcoin
to
people
and
those
are
just
questions
that
that
are
kind
of
non
relevant
for
us,
but
also
a
spotlight.
We
don't
need
so
I.
Think
second,
half
of
next
year,
you'll
start
seeing
a
lot
more
about
it.