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From YouTube: Panel: Start Simple to Scale Decentralized Identity - Heather Dahl & Kenneth Ebert, R. J. Reiser
Description
Panel: Start Simple to Scale Decentralized Identity - Heather Dahl & Kenneth Ebert, Indicio.tech, R. J. Reiser, Liquid Avatar Technologies
When beginning the journey toward decentralized identity deployment, the simpler the system you make, the more likely you are to be successful. In this discussion, Liquid Avatar Technologies and Indicio.tech will share how together they are transitioning the current KABN ID solution to verifiable credentials by building the Liquid Avatar Verifiable Credentials Ecosystem utilizing Hyperledger Aries, Ursa, and Indy. This new system will enable online identity assurance which includes a digital credentials wallet and platform for issuers, verifiers, and individuals. By first focusing a simple deployment of decentralized identity, along with supporting marketing and governance, it allows for an iterative implementation in a controlled credential environment versus the chaos that can ensue when trying to attempt a larger scale roll-out in the early days.
Session Details & Slides (if available)- https://sched.co/j3ej
Access All Sessions: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/hyperledger-global-forum/program/schedule/
----
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A
Hi
everyone
welcome
I'm
heather
dahl,
ceo
of
industrial
tech,
for
those
of
you,
who've,
just
joined
us.
We're
going
to
be
talking
about
starting
simple,
to
feel
decentralized
identity.
You
know
when
beginning
the
journey
of
decentralized
identity
deployment
using
hyperledger,
indie,
aries
and
ursa
the
simpler.
You
start
the
easier
it
is,
and
it's
more
likely
to
make
you
successful.
So
that's
why
we're
going
to
talk
about
with
the
panel
that
we
have
today,
which
includes
liquid
avatar
technology
and
then
dc
attack.
A
B
Hello:
everyone,
my
name
is
rj
reeser,
I'm
the
chief
business
development
officer
at
liquid
avatar,
which
means
I
have
the
best
job
of
the
company.
I
get
to
take
cool
technology
that
comes
out
of
these
foundations
that
we're
talking
about
today
and
applying
to
real
life
solutions
and
get
neat
get
to
meet
really
neat
interesting
people
that
address
everyday
type,
problems
that
we
all
face
around
digital
identity
and
your
online
identity.
A
C
Hi,
I'm
ken
ebert,
I'm
the
cto
at
in
dco
tech,
we're
a
company
that
focuses
on
the
growth
and
adoption
of
decentralized
identity.
We
work
with
our
partners
to
help
them
from
training
architecture,
consulting
whatever
it
takes
to
get
their
product
through
successful
deployment
in
into
real
life
production.
A
B
Yeah,
so
you
know
it
was:
we've
been
in
identity
and
identity
solutions
for
the
last
three
years,
and
what
we
found
is
that
it's
it's
a
one
and
done,
and
you
have
these
islands
of
your
your
connections
with
different
companies
and
they
own
your
data,
and
we
thought
there
was
a
better
way
to
do
it.
Where
you
know
how
do
we
create
a
a
system,
a
tool
where
the
user,
the
consumer,
is
in
control
of
their
identity
and
we
empower
them
to
use
and
share
what
they
want
when
they
want
and
with
whom
they
want.
B
And
you
know
it
seems
you
know
that's
kind
of
simple,
but
then
you
add
another
layer
on
it
and
say:
hey
there
can't
be
a
central
authority.
It
needs
to
meet
all
the
growing
regulations
of
all
the
different
government
entities
that
are
out
there.
It
needs
to
be
interoperable,
it
needs
to
be
inclusive
and,
most
importantly,
needs
to
be
secure,
and
so
we
had
that
framing
of
okay.
How
do
we
go
to
the
next
gen
for
identity
and
we
had
a
great
opportunity
to
meet
within
dco
and
and
move
forward.
A
C
So
the
first
thing
we
have
to
do
is
take
all
of
the
the
big
ideas.
If
you
don't
have
a
big
vision,
you're
not
going
to
go
anywhere,
but
that
big
vision
can
sometimes
inhibit
the
actual
implementation.
So
our
first
challenge
was
to
try
to
take
rj's
enormous
vision
of
of
how
to
use
decentralized
identity,
to
solve
real
world
problems
and
pick
one
problem
and
then
classify
the
parts
of
the
of
that
were
necessary
to
get
that
minimum
ecosystem
put
together
so
that
they
had
an
issuer
defined.
C
Who
was
going
to
hold
the
credentials
and
how
they
were
going
to
be
held
and
who's
going
to
be
the
first
verifier.
It's
not
that
they
are
that
the
the
scope
of
the
project
won't
go
beyond
that.
But
if
you
don't
pick
a
a
basic
place
to
start
where
you
control
most
of
the
variables
and
don't
have
to
wait
for
anybody
external
to
come
along
and
and
exist
for
you
to
be
successful.
So
that
scaling
that
the
big
picture
down
to
what
is
going
to
be
our
first
step.
C
A
Now
I've
shared
this
trust
triangle,
that's
very
familiar
to
those
in
decentralized
identity,
maybe
new
for
those
who
are
joining
us
to
learn
about
decentralized
identity.
This
probably
is
a
blast
from
the
past,
because
this
is
actually
the
image
that
you
and
ken
first
talked
over
in
those
first
conversations.
So
maybe
because
you
know
the
goal
of
this
session
is
really
we're
committed
to
education
and
sharing
our
lessons
learned
with
everyone
like
us,
through
the
conversations
that
you
had
in
those
early
days
on
this
image
and
how
it
helped
you.
B
Yeah,
so
it
was
all
about
starting
small
and
then
being
in
a
position
to
scale
right,
so
it
can
be
very
daunting.
You
can
go
in
into
a
scenario
where
you
have
paralysis
through
analysis
to
try
to
cover
every
single
possible
solution,
and
what
we
want
to
do
is
let,
let's
start
with
a
good
pain
points
around
pcr
tests
and
smart
start
with
a
small
community
where
they,
it
was
just
granting
access
into
certain
facilities
and
there's
existing
governance
that
we
have
today.
So
let's
leverage
existing
governance
and
structures
and
keep
it.
B
You
know
a
closed
loop
type
solution
and
and
roll
out
the
technology.
You
know
one
of
the
things
that
was
very
clear
in
earlier
discussions
is
that
we
can't
come
up
with
every
possible
scenario
or
challenge
the
project's
going
to
run
into
so,
let's
get
started
and
and
start
moving
down
the
path
and
then
adapt
and
change
as
we
go.
C
And
so
we
looked
at
that
as
offering
the
most
flexibility
so
that
they
had
more
than
one
device
or
they
wanted
to
access
their
agent
through
a
web
interface
that
gave
the
most
flexibility.
So
we
took
each
of
the
components
we
looked
at
the
issuer.
How
would
that
issuance
occur?
What
what
are
our
initial
schemas
going
to
look
like?
C
Is
it
some
based
off
a
pre-existing
relationship,
or
is
it
going
to
be
a
new
establishing
a
new
relationship,
and
how
do
we
cover
both
of
those
use
cases
once
the
the
holder
had
had
a
credential
in
hand
or
in
in
their
wallet
in
their
agent
in
the
cloud
and
controlled
by
their
mobile
device,
then
who
are
they
going
to
present
it
to,
and
once
we
had
a
closed
loop
system
defined,
we
were
able
to
start
putting
into
into
place.
What
are
the
steps
that
might
be
required
to
implement
that
and
that
roadmap?
B
It's
quite
a
few
right
and
it's
difficult
to
choose
which
ones
to
do
next,
but
it's
it's
scaling
rather
rapidly.
So
there's
there's
lots
of
different
use
cases
we're
probably
well
over
10
different
types
of
credentials.
So
it's
very
exciting.
I
I
wanted
to
add.
Add
you
know.
One
other
item
to
that
is
that
you
know
one
of
the
most
important
pieces
was
that
there's
no
one
central
authority
right,
one
point
of
failure
and
creating
that
that
mobile
agent
right,
where
it's
not
tied
to
a
device?
It's
agnostic
right.
C
Yeah
that
that
was
a
key
part
of
it
is
that
the
account
recovery
problem
became
a
much
simpler
challenge
to
tackle,
because
we
were
able
to
say
the
the
more
reliable
the
cloud
hosting
would
take
care
of
that.
If
the
consumer
drops
his
phone
overboard
and-
and
it
goes
to
the
bottom
of
the
lake-
it
doesn't
it's
not
as
a
critical
catastrophe
for
them,
they
get
a
new
phone
and
they
can
reestablish
that
connection
and
their
identity
that
all
the
credentials
that
they've
had
the
relationships
that
they've
set
up
are
still
existing.
A
B
A
So
for
those
of
you
who
just
joined
our
conversation,
we're
talking
about
starting
simple,
the
skill,
decentralized
identity,
with
rj
racer
of
liquid
avatar
technologies
and
in
dc,
is
ken
ebert.
You
can
also
join
us
by
posting
to
the
chat
or
q
a
feature
that's
located
on
the
right
hand,
side
of
this
window
here
today
I
think
rj,
it's
important
to
point
out,
or
at
least
take
a
minute
or
two
to
focus
on
one
of
the
things
that
we're
trying
to
do
with
the
avatar
is
build
upon
an
existing
system,
an
existing
company.
A
B
How
can
we
change
that
and
allow
me
to
go
through
and
create
a
credential
that
proves
who
I
am
and
then
only
share
the
pieces
of
that
credential
with
each
of
those
at
different
individual
companies.
One
story
that
everyone
here
always
uses
you
know
in
our
different
networks
is
all
about.
You
know
trying
to
prove
your
age
today
when
you
prove
your
age
you're,
giving
them
all
this
personally
identifiable
information
that
they
can
use
to
to
actually
cause
harm.
So
all
they
really
need
to
know
is
that
I'm
over
a
certain
age.
B
So
if
there's
an
age
issue
with
a
credential,
we
don't
have
to
share
the
birthday.
We
can
just
share
that
I'm
over
a
certain
age
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
So
I
saw
that
that
these
standards
right
using
you
know,
aries
and
and
hyper
ledger-
was
really
the
only
tool
for
us
that
made
sense
and
how
to
how
to
move
forward
and
build
out
that
platform
where
the
power
shifts
from
the
companies
to
the
individuals
and
it's
in
line
with
all
the
regulations
that
are
out
there
right
now
today,
as
well.
C
Reliability
also
shifted
from
the
companies
back
to
the
individuals,
which
is
a
benefit
to
the
company
as
well,
so
they
can
avoid
some
of
that
liability
that
that
selective
disclosure
and
predicate
proofs
that
you
were
talking
about
are
are
great
tools
for
privacy
preservation
for
the
end
users,
but
they're
also
good
tools
for
helping
limit
the
liability
and
exposure
that
the
companies
have
to
data
that
can
be
toxic
to
them.
They
need
they
need
to
see
some
data.
They
need
some
something
to
rely
on.
C
But
if
you
can
limit
the
data,
that's
being
shared
through
the
zero
knowledge
type
methods
and
and
selective
disclosure
predicate
proofs
and
so
forth,
then
you
have
the
ability
for
the
companies
to
get
the
bits
and
pieces
that
they
need
to
make
good
business
decisions
and
to
rely
on
the
data
without
exposing
them
to
all
of
the
pii.
That
subjects
them
to
lots
of
different
regulations.
B
A
And
we
have
a
question
here
from
patrick
based
on
what
you're
talking
about
he
asks:
do
you
see
self-sovereign
networks
without
a
central
authority
that
adds
new
peer
networks
working
in
the
future?
If
I
understand
you
correctly,
you
are
currently
deciding
who
is
a
trusted
issuer
and
how
is
that
decided.
C
B
Yeah,
so
there's
a
lot
to
it
and
I'll
try
to
unpack
it
a
little
bit
so
the
you
know
there's
the
first
piece
is:
is
how
do
we
do
it
today
right
and
when
I
go
to
prove
my
age.
We
already
have
a
system,
a
governance
system
out
there.
They
will
accept
a
driver's
license
from
the
province
or
the
state
that
I'm
from,
but
if
it
starts
to
be,
you
know
driver's
license
from
you
know:
ken's
driver's
license
shop.
You
know
you're
not
going
to
accept
that
credential.
B
B
Let's
start
with
a
closed
loop
scenario
like
the
one
we're
rolling
out
with
there's
existing
regulations
for
pcr
tests
and
who
can
do
a
pcr
test
and
document
those
regulations
apply
them
to
our
little
ecosystem
and
allow
on
our
platform
for
them
to
issue
those
credentials,
and
it's
interoperable
right.
So
now
you
can
have
anyone.
That's
following
the
same
technology
stack
if
you
will
and
tools
can
apply
and
join
the
ecosystem
and
and
move
forward.
C
So
so
I
think
there's
two
two
critical
parts
to
it
is
enabling
people
to
become
issuers,
whether
you
trust
them
or
not,
is
irrelevant.
At
that
point
it's
can
they
issue
and
get
a
credential
out
there.
On
the
on
the
flip
side,
like
rj
talked
about,
you
now
have
to
establish
rules,
but
the
rules
can
be
per
verifier
or
per
verifier
type
of
organization
or
vertical,
and
they
can
determine
their
own
rules
and
say.
C
They
can
publish
their
own
trusted
list
of
people
that
they
rely
on
or
they
can
rely
on
other
people's.
But
it
gives
a
flexibility
to
the
system
that
that
allows
it
to
grow
and
allow
for
these
ad
hoc
type
of
relationships
to
occur
without
having
to
predetermine
it
all
ahead
of
time
and
publish
it
in
a
grand
scheme
that
was
once
and
done.
B
So
I
read
this
question
again,
so
I'm
gonna
be
really
direct,
so,
yes,
self-sovereign
identity,
hands
down
absolutely
and
then
the
second
part
of
your
question
is,
you
know
right
now
we're
deciding
who
can
be
trusted,
but
that
can
be
expanded
and
the
scope
could
be
increased
as
it
grows.
Our
main
intent
here
with
this
first
ecosystem
is
let's
work
through
and
find
some
of
the
challenges
that
you
can't
come
up
with.
A
So
one
of
the
things
that
you
and
kenneth
both
talked
about
is
this
concept
of
a
closed
loop
ecosystem
and
I'm
going
to
share
this
slide,
because
some
of
us
are
visual
learners
and
I
think
this
helps
explain
what
you're
talking
about.
Maybe
can
you
can
dissect
this
image
and
then
rj
talk
about
what
it
means
to
you
at
liquid
avatar.
C
This
this
is
a
diagram,
is
more
busy
than
it
probably
needs
to
be,
but
at
the
bottom
you
have
some
kind
of
a
network
that
helps
provide
the
validation
of
the
the
public
keys
and
the
trust
that
it's
built
on,
but
on
the
left,
you
have
a
particular
issuer
who
is
going
to
issue
a
credential
to
the
employees
on
the
right,
so
it's
an
hr
person.
They
have
a
ui
that
allows
them
to
act,
interact
with
their
agent
that
their
agent
may
be
looking
at
a
the
hr
server.
C
In
the
background
to
say,
we
look
at
our
hr
database
to
determine
what
employees
are.
We
already
have
a
relationship
with
them
with
email
or
whatever.
We
can
send
out
an
invitation
and
allow
the
mobile
agents
that
the
employees
have
on
the
right
to
connect
with
our
cloud
company
agent
and
receive
a
credential,
an
employment
credential
once
they
have
that
credential
they
can
use
that
with
a
benefits
partner,
for
instance,
who
becomes
the
verifier
so
you're,
representing
all
the
bits
and
pieces
of
that
trust
triangle.
C
You're,
looking
at
the
issuer,
the
hr
department
on
the
left,
you're,
looking
at
the
holder
agents
on
the
right
and
you're
looking
at
a
verifier
the
benefits
partner
with
their
agent,
we
have
a
mediator
cloud
agent
in
there
too.
That's
basically
to
provide
routing
for
those
mobile
agents
that
move
around
and
don't
have
fixed
end
points
but
you're,
putting
together
the
trust
triangle
and
you're
changing
all
three
parties.
That's
the
important
part.
First
getting
started.
You
have
all
three
parties
identified,
so
rj
went
through
and
identified
an
issuer
for
their
first
system.
C
They
identified
how
they
were
going
to
do
their
agents
that
represent
the
holders
or
employees
or
whoever
it
is,
and
they
looked
at
who's
going
to
be
the
verifier.
So
you've
got
a
simple
one.
You
don't
have
to
stand
up
your
own
network,
that's
something!
There's
an
indicio
network!
There's
a
sovereign
network!
There's
the
fendi
network.
C
B
Yeah,
just
the
flexibility
right
and
that's
the
key
so
for
me,
there's
the
flexibility
with
with
the
individual,
the
consumer,
the
employees.
How
do
you
put
the
power
in
their
hands
and
then
just
increase
it
to
your
everyday
everyday
life
scenarios?
So
for
us
you
know
this
particular
diagram
is
all
around.
You
know
the
companies
that
you
work
for
getting
access
and
what's
important
here
that
I
want
to
touch
in
on
is
this
systems.
You
know
with
all
these
tools
we're
able
to
for
the
hr
and
the
company.
B
C
C
Going
to
say
that
there's
stages
to
the
whole
thing
too,
you
put
together
a
quick
prototype
that
shows
how
it
can
work
if
you're
happy
with
that
you
go
on
to
the
next
phase.
If
not,
you
can
make
some
small
tweaks
before
you've
tried
to
to
roll
the
thing
into
an
entire
production
scaled
out
system.
You
try
it
out
in
prototype
once
you're
happy
with
the
prototype,
you
try
it
out
with
real
users
on
a
small
scale
so
that
you
get
an
idea
of
of.
C
Are
there
any
things
that
we
overlooked
or
use
ease
of
use
things
that
might
be
involved
that
you
can
polish
up
before
you
go
to
production
once
you
get
into
production,
then
you're
starting
to
worry
about
things
like?
How
do
I
scale
it?
Scaling
is
an
awesome
problem
to
have
it
means
that
you've
been
successful
at
getting
it
into
production,
then
look
at
how
to
scale
things
and
make
it
more
efficient
how
to
make
it
cost
less
per
user.
C
Those
questions
come
up
at
that
point,
but
if
you
try
to
deploy
at
scale
from
the
beginning
with
by
skipping
all
the
other
steps
you
miss
out
on
the
learning
that
can
occur
there
and
the
cost
savings
that
can
result
from
taking
a
small
course
change
early.
Rather
than
trying
to
do
do
it
once
you've
got
a
full
production
system
at
scale.
A
Let's
face
it
for
some
people
going
into
decentralized
identity,
they're
overwhelmed
before
they
even
get
to
to
the
prototype,
because
you've
got
tools,
you've
got
platforms,
communities,
governance
standards,
I'm
probably
even
missing
parts
of
it,
it's
a
very
busy
space.
So
how
do
you
even
start
to
make
sense
of
all
these
pieces
to
allow
yourself
to
even
move
forward
with
the
prototype.
C
I
have
I
have
one
thought
on
that
and
that's
the
focus
on
the
credential
and
I
think
that's
what
rj
does
a
good
job
of
is
saying
we're
going
to
look
at
a
an
identity,
credential
a
validated
email
address,
or
something
very,
very
simple
like
that.
But
once
you
start
to
to
look
at
what
the
credentials
are,
then
you
can
say
how
can
these
be
combined
to
provide
a
stronger
assurance
or
what
are
other
credentials
that
could
be
added
to
the
system
in
a
stepwise
fashion
or
where
else
can
these
credentials
be
used?
C
The
key
question
is:
where
else
can
they
be
used,
because
you
think
up
one
use
case
of
how
to
use
them
when
driver's
license
were
first
issued
as
a
as
a
piece
of
cardboard
or
laminated
piece
of
plastic,
they
were
intended
to
prove
that
you're
able
to
drive,
but
other
people
came
along
and
said,
hey.
I
can
use
this.
I
trust
this.
I
can
use
it
to
verify
your
address.
I
can
use
this
to
verify
your
name.
C
I
can
look
at
your
photo
and
see
that
you
know,
as
your
name
and
your
photo
are
associated.
There's
other
use
cases
that
pop
up
and
that's
the
same
thing
with
the
digital
credentials,
the
verifiable
credentials
and
and
once
you
have
a
system
for
allowing
easy
creation
of
credentials
by
trusted
parties
or
by
anybody.
And
then
you
can
figure
out
who
which
of
those
you're
going
to
trust
and
where
they
might
be
useful
and
applicable.
And
I
think
that's
part
of
the
natural
growth
of
a
system.
But
by
doing
it
step
wise.
A
B
I'm
gonna
kind
of
divide
the
question
up
a
little
bit
right,
and
so
you
know
the
first
piece
is.
Is
I
think
that
a
lot
of
the
folks
that
are
going
to
be
you
know
on
our
call
and
listening
to
this
are
going
to
be
more
technical
and
and
they
want
to
know
how
they
get
into
the
space
or
how
their
business
gets
into
the
space?
B
And
you
know
there
are
so
many
smart
individuals
that
are
here.
I've
always
been
impressed
over
the
last
two
and
a
half
years,
all
the
different
working
groups
that
I've
joined
and
and
how
wicked
smart
they
all
are.
But
there's
one
little
little
item
that
everyone
can
get
and
that
is
everyone
produces
all
these
white
papers
get
a
hold
of
these
white
papers.
They
have
them
front
and
center
on
their
websites
and
and
re
go
through
the
web.
Those
white
papers-
and
you
start
to
get
an
idea.
We
all
have
dead.
B
And
try
to
figure
this
stuff
out.
I
think
that's
core
one
and
one
and
then
join
some
of
these
working
groups
get
on
and
just
listen
and
everybody's
at
the
same
spot.
You
are,
it's
not
like
you
got
to
add,
get
on
there
and
and
leave
the
discussion
right
away
just
get
in
there
and
join
these
working
groups
and
participate.
B
So
that's
the
one
piece
the
other
piece
is,
and
this
is
the
one
that
I
really
really
wrestle
with
is
how
do
we
explain
this
to
the
individual
users?
How
do
I
explain
it
to
you
know
everybody
that
I
come
across
people
I
used
to
work
with
or
my
family
members.
What
are
you
doing
and
you
try
to
explain
to
them
what
this
digital
credential
is?
And
I
don't
have
the
the
magic
solution
on
that
one?
I
think
it's
going
to
be
the
same
way.
B
It
maybe
a
test
environment
working
on
some
cool
stuff
around
there
you
get
to
use
it,
you
get
to
experience
it
and
once
you
see
it
and
feel
it
and
say
hey
here
is
a
credential
that
looks
just
like
my
driver's
license.
It
has
10
fields,
hey
here's
a
place
where
I
can
do
a
qr
scan,
and
then
they
ask
me
that
they
want
these
four
fields.
Guess
what
I'm
going
to?
Let
them
see
one
field
or
I'm
going
to.
B
B
C
I
was
going
to
say
that
there
are
many
credentials
that
have
a
physical
counterpart
right
now,
and
some
of
them
have
problems
associated
with
them.
They
have
fraud,
they
have
caught
high
cost
to
prevent
fraud.
You
have
to
put
little
holograms
and
things
and
try
to
put
a
protective
coatings
on
them,
and
things
like
that,
and
so
by
moving
to
a
digital,
verifiable
credential.
C
This
can
help
reduce
cost
and
fraud
in
those
credentials,
and
so
for
many
issuers.
It
can
be
a
case
of
taking
an
existing
credential
that
they
already
have
and
transforming
that
into
a
verifiable
credential
that
gives
them
a
mechanism
that
reduces
their
overall
cost
and
allows
for
people
to
trust
and
verify
those
credentials
more
readily.
C
You
may
put
together
an
employee
credential
to
allow
them
to
safely
come
into
their
into
a
factory,
so
they
can
help
build
cars
during
covet.
But
you
may
find
that
that
employee
credential,
when
shared
appropriately,
might
work
with
partner
organizations,
services
and
and
other
partners
that
might
have
a
relationship
with
your
company
that
your
employees
can
benefit
from
your
your
benefits
organization.
Your
travel
and
vacation
service
that
you
offer
them
a
health
screening,
whatever
whatever
types
of
things
and
those
employee
conventions,
can
be
used
in
ways
that
you
hadn't
anticipated.
A
And
I
think,
can
what
you
hit
on
with
relationships
is
key
for
our
conversation.
Moving
forward,
we
spent
the
first
half
of
the
hour,
really
focused
on
the
starting
simple
and
for
those
who
are
just
beginning
the
journey
to
decentralized
identity.
Now
for
our
second
half,
let's
focus
on
this
healing
decentralized
identity,
and
I
think
that's
where
these
relationships
really
come
into
play
so
rj
you're
at
the
point
now,
where
you've
crossed
over
you've
already
started.
You've
had
success,
and
now
steel
is
reality
and
what
you're
dealing
with?
B
B
Yeah,
so
there's
there
is
we're
actually
on
the
whiteboard
doing
that
now.
I
think
there's
lots
of
really
good
options.
So
what
I
believe
it
is
is
is
now
connecting
the
two
different
all
the
different,
multiple
ecosystems
that
are
out
there,
all
the
different
credentials
that
are
out
there.
All
of
them
have
lots
of
strengths
that
they
can
provide,
and
then
it's
just
finding
the
ones
that
that
are
the
the
ideal
fit.
B
So
we
have
you
know,
I'm
not,
I'm
not
sure
what
all
I
can
talk
about.
Unfortunately,
but
what's
neat
is
there's
there's
some
natural
fits
and
progressions
that
I
never
even
knew
existed
that
are
now
coming
to
to
fruition
on
taking
it
to
the
next
step
into
the
next
level.
And
you
know
it's
it's
it's
a
challenge
in
the
fact
that
you
don't
want
to
boil
the
ocean.
You
don't
want
to
try
to
be
everything
for
everyone.
B
You
got
to
make
sure
you
keep
laser
focused
and
choose
the
correct
projects
that
you
can
get
quick
wins
on
right
and
you
get
deliver
results
that
you
can
leverage
to
go
to
the
to
the
next
phase
right
and
what
we're
all?
What
we're
all
focused
in
right
now
is,
I
think,
is
really
important-
is
what's
the
first
government
entity,
division
institution
that
that
that's
going
to
embrace
this
right,
there's
a
couple
of
them,
but
but
at
some
point
there's
gonna.
B
B
B
Because
they
they'll,
if
they're
last,
that's
the
issue
in
itself
so
everybody's
at
that
starting
line
ready
to
go
and
they
want
some
of
these
use
cases
that
we
have
and
some
of
these
successes.
And
so
it's
it's
really
an
exciting
point
right
now.
There's
huge
momentum
in
that
direction
so
more
to
come
right.
C
I
think
that's
a
really
funny
image,
it's
a
race
where
nobody
wants
to
be.
First,
nobody
wants
to
be
last
and
they're
all
waiting
for
somebody
to
take
the
first
step,
but
that's
one
of
the
reasons
why,
taking
that
first
step
and
putting
out
a
very
small
scale
project,
it
breaks
the
ice
and
people
excited.
They
can
see
that
it
does
work
and
they're
more
willing
to
take
their
their
own
first
step
once
the
somebody
else
has
already
taken
the
first
seven
and
I
think
that's
really
cool.
C
When
you
look
at
scaling,
there's
a
number
of
ways
to
talk
about
scaling
and
you've
talked
about
one
of
them
and
that's
kind
of
like
the
partners,
but
there's
there's
scaling
of
individuals.
So
you
might
be
successful
in
a
trial
in
a
small
subset
of
your
organization,
you
took
the
hr
department
and
put
them
in
and
then
you
can
scale
it
out
to
other
employees
so
that
you
have
a
small
group
that
you
work
with
at
first
and
scale
the
number
of
people.
That's
the
holders
being
scaled.
C
You
could
also
scale
it
to
other
people's
holders.
So
it's
not
just
your
factory.
It's
it's
more
people
that
are
involved.
You
can
also
look
at
issuers
and
that
typically
talks
about
credentials
that
are
being
scaled,
so
the
different
you
can
take
the
same
credential
that
you
used
in
your
in
your
first
system
and
take
it
to
another
issuer
and
say:
would
you
like
to
issue
two?
C
C
Now
you
can
expand
that
to
say
we're
going
to
combine
that
with
a
another
type
of
credential
we're
going
to
do
a
background
check,
credential
it's
going
to
be
issued
by
a
federal
government
who
investigated
you
and
proved
that
you're
have
a
security
clearance,
so
you
can
take
the
number
of
types
of
credentials
that
are
being
issued
and
scale
those
up
too
and
have
them
interact
with
your
system.
That
already
has
a
number
of
credentials
existing.
You
can
also
scale
of
the
verifiers.
C
The
people
who
are
working
on
that
and
all
three
of
those
are
all
four
of
those
are
interesting.
Things
number
of
issuers
number
of
credentials.
Number
of
holders
and
number
of
verifiers
and
and
each
of
those
like
rj
mentioned,
can
be
done
on
a
single
relationship.
You're
not
trying
to
do
it
all
at
once.
C
It's
not
closed
loop
anymore.
It's
an
open
system
where
many
people
can
come
and
they
can
bring
their
own
governance
rules
of
what
they
trust
and
don't
trust.
They
can
bring
new
types
of
credentials
that
they're
going
to
issue,
and
then
the
people
who
are
already
participating
can
say
hey.
That
is
an
interesting
credential.
I
would
like
to
to
rely
on
that
as
well,
but
it
gives
that
that
growth
can
happen
on
on
those
four
different
dimensions.
C
You
have
to
start
somewhere,
so
the
the
first
area
that
we've
chosen
to
focus
on
is
interoperability
within
the
aries
community,
and
one
of
the
first
things
we
looked
at
is
how
do
we
scale
beyond
a
single
indie
network?
That
seemed
like
a
pretty
basic
question,
but
it
wasn't
answered
at
the
time
we
embarked
on
it.
That's
one
of
the
reasons
we
stood
up
in
dco
network
is
to
begin
testing
of
cross
network
cross
indy
network
did
resolution.
C
There
are
other
types
of
credentials
that
are
out
there
and
there
are
different
did
systems
as
well
that
that
different
signature,
types
and
so
forth,
and
most
of
that
work
is
happening.
I
think
one
of
the
places
of
effort
is
in
the
indie
community
in
the
aries
community
on
focusing
on
how
can
we
bring
in
new
types
of
resolvers?
How
can
we
bring
in
different
ledger
types,
different
signature,
types
and
and
those
types
of
things?
C
How
do
we
increase
our
interoperability
testing
capability
so
that
we
can
prove
reliability,
that
the
interoperability
is
occurring?
There's
other
types
of
interoperability
with
with,
for
instance,
paper
credentials
of
of
vaccinations?
How
do
you
bring
those
into
an
ecosystem
and
bring
them
into
the
out
of
the
stone
age
and
into
or
the
paper
agent
into
the
digital
age
and
provide
a
way
to
reliably
convert
a
less
trustworthy
credential
into
something
that
can
be
more
trustworthy?
So
there's
a
number
of
areas
where
interoperability
is
important.
There's
interoperability
with
legacy
systems
as
well.
C
A
C
B
Yeah,
so
it's
a
foundation
for
interoperability
right
every
every
working
group,
aries
hyper
ledger.
You
know
trust
over
iep.
That
is
one
of
the
core
foundations
for
self-sovereign
identity
and
I
never
realized
how
complicated
of
a
word.
That
is
because
we
could
have
vertical
interoperability
right
and
that's
that's
the
key
one
of
the
strengths
with
this
credential
and
self-sovereign
identity
is
that
I
can't
just
move
this
credential
everywhere.
So
that's
the
strength
is
that
it
is
locked
to
a
bound
identity
to
that
agent.
B
I
just
can't
take
that
credential
and
put
it
on
on
a
different
agent
and
move
it
different
wallet,
different
agent.
So
that's
a
strength
that
builds
the
trust,
but
you
want
it
to
be
interoperable
so
that
no
one's
tied
into
a
single
company
or
what
have
you,
and
so
there
will
be
a
process
that
that
these
working
groups
are
working
on
so
that
you
can
change
from
one
agent
to
another.
It
isn't
fully
defined,
but
today.
B
Interoperability,
vertical
interoperability,
all
the
way
down
to
you
know
the
networks
or
the
utilities
is
one
term
they
use
on
the
blockchain
on
which
utility
that
you're
using
so
there's
interoperability
that
exists
today.
That
allows
choice
with
the
consumers,
and
I
continue
I'll
see
it.
It
will
grow.
It'll
grow
quickly
to
even
be
more
diverse
and
dynamic
on
interoperability,
but
you
don't
want
to
have
interoperability
at
the
downside
or
decreasing
the
security
in
the
trust
layer.
B
C
Rj's
been
a
strong
proponent,
I
think,
of
of
interoperability
at
the
wallet
level
as
well,
so
interoperable
wallets
so
that
they're
compatible
with
each
other.
That's
that's
one
aspect
of
it,
but
the
migration
capability
of
tape
and
a
wallet
interchangeability
is
another
aspect
and
it's
a
different
term,
but
the
ability
to
migrate
your
credentials
from
one
wallet
to
another,
that's
slightly
different
story
and
and
an
area
that
needs
attention
as
well.
C
So
I
think
that
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
interoperability
terms,
and
you
can
talk
about
it
at
the
network
level,
the
protocol
level
at
diff,
it
did
come,
you
can
talk
about
it
at
aries
and
what
types
of
credentials
they
support.
You
can
talk
about.
It
also,
I
think,
rj's
taking
the
lead
and
trying
to
think
ahead
on
how
wallets
might
be
interoperable
or
manageable,
or
backupable
and
restorable
to
a
different
wallet.
Those
are
those
are
topics
that
also
are
a
prime
concern
in
terms
of
interoperability.
A
So
one
of
the
things
that
at
these
conferences,
events
you'll
hear
a
lot
of
presentations
that
are
glossed
over
and
it's
highly
successful.
And
it
appears
to
be
so
easy
because
the
success
went
from
problem
solution
to
celebration.
Three
slides,
but
here
we're
all
about
keeping
it
real,
because
the
only
way
advance
the
adoption,
decentralized
identities
by
learning
from
each
other.
If
I
want
to
go
to
urj
and
talk
about
one
of
the
challenges
or
obstacles
that
one
you
weren't
expecting
and
two
that
you
had
to
overcome
in
order
to
achieve
a
milestone.
C
B
And
then
you
know
the
the
other
question
for
me
was:
where
do
you
get
the
bench?
Where
do
you
get
the
people
they're
gonna
help
you
build
it
out.
I
mean
it's.
It's
you
just
can't
find
engineers
that
that
have
the
skill
set
needed
to
roll
these
projects
out,
so
the
nice
thing
is,
is
finding
the
partners
that
can
help
us
roll
these
things
out.
B
Those
are
those
were
the
two
biggest
challenges
and
working
within
dco
and
finding
the
right
partners
help
help
us
with
that,
so
that
everybody's
on
the
same
page,
we're
starting
something
that
that
not
a
lot
of
organizations
have
done
before
and
it's
cutting
edge,
which
is
exciting.
I
mean
that's,
that's
what
I
love
about
these
projects.
It's
cutting
edge,
we
can
say
we're
one
of
the
first
ones
to
do.
C
One
one
of
the
fun
problems
as
a
technical
problem
was
that
the
the
mobile
wallet
interface
was
written
in
react
native
and
integrated
into
an
existing
app
that
was
written
in
flutter,
and
so
those
are.
Those
are
some
of
the
kinds
of
problems
that
I
think
are
fairly
typical
of
trying
to
do
that,
but
that
type
of
integration
is
not
uncommon.
That's
that's
going
to
be
a
a
challenge.
It's
not
an
insurmountable
challenge,
but
that
kind
of
challenge
will
happen
with
enterprise
agents
being
integrated
with
back-end
systems.
C
A
So
it's
we
have
ten
nine
minutes
left
in
our
session
here
governance.
I
want
to
take
a
few
minutes
to
talk
about
governance,
because
what
we
hear
from
companies
organizations
is
that
early
in
the
journey
governance
does
become
a
challenge
of
almost
a
blocker
because
he
described
it
r.j.
It's
analysis,
paralysis.
A
B
Yeah,
so
for
us
I
mean
just
to
boil
it
down.
Is
closed.
Loop
helps
right,
so
you
don't
have
to
to
cover
every
single
possible
scenario,
but
the
other
one
is
just
use
the
existing
governance
we
have
today
just
like
the
credentials
most
of
these
credentials
that
are
the
first
credentials
out
of
the
box
are
ones
that
we
have
paper
versions,
so
we're
just
using
the
existing
governance
that
we
already
have
around.
B
You
know
the
medical
health
industry
and
just
leveraging
those
and
meeting
those
because
they
have
to
meet
those
requirements
anyways
just
because
it's
a
digital
form,
they
still
have
to
meet
hipaa
and
all
the
other
regular
requirements
that
they
have.
So
how
does
this
platform
help
enable
it?
And
we
found
that
you
know
with
these
governance
packages,
you
keep
them
simple
and
get
them
out.
It
actually
allows
you
to
be
more
compliant
because
you're,
given
the
control
to
the
individuals.
C
I
think
that
you
make
a
couple
of
key
points.
One
of
them
is
model.
The
existing
governance
that
exists
today,
second,
is
keep
it
simple
by
bounding,
the
problem,
you
don't
try
to
solve
all
the
problems
you
solve
the
one
particular
problem
that
you're
working
on
another
step
that
we
did
was
introduce,
even
though
there's
not
a
defined
standard
around
it.
A
B
C
I
think
that,
by
limiting
the
scope
of
what
you
tried
to
do
in
your
first
step,
you
limited
your
risk
and
you
got
the
opportunity
to
learn
from
that
and
then
grow
as
well.
So
I
think
that
that
keeping
the
scope
narrow
as
at
the
beginning
helped
make
it
more
feasible
to
take
those
first
steps
and
to
get
into
the
market
to
figure
out
what
what
are
the
needs.
The
true
needs
and
adapt
to
that
as
you
learn
from
your
initial
findings.
A
C
B
So
now
you
know
it's,
I
I
boil
it
down
to
being
turnkey
right.
We've
already
figured
out
the
path
on
how
to
move
forward
with
this.
So
how
do
we
bundle
that
together
to
help
enable
other
ecosystems
other
partners
to
move
quickly
down
and
learn
from
our
lessons
learned?
So
it
is
again
it
goes
back
to,
and
sometimes
it
doesn't
seem.
You
know
when
you,
when
you're
building
organizations.
C
B
Do
you
create
a
new
industry,
a
new
standard,
that's
embraced
across
the
board,
with
all
different
organizations,
and
it's
not
based
on
a
closed
system
right.
It's
not
based
on
its
open
standards
and
having
everybody
contribute,
and
you
know
is
that
is
that
foundation
for
it.
We've
created
this
path
and
we're
bundling
it
up
and
we'll
show
this
road
map
to
others
that
that
want
to
move
forward
and
we're
excited
about
it.
C
So
cardia
is
basically
based
on
open
source
technology.
It
builds
on
top
of
aries
agents,
aries,
accupy,
aries
framework,
javascript
and
the
bifold
projects
and
then
provides
the
unique
characteristics
of
needed
by
public
health
and
travel
in
particular
to
safely
exchange
health
status
type
credentials.
C
The
the
cool
thing
about
the
cardia
project
is
that
it's
not
just
a
specification.
It's
an
implementation.
It's
a
it's
a
at
least
a
reference
implementation
and
a
deployable
reference
implementation
of
that
that
allows
for
people
to
take
that
open
source
code
customize.
It
modify
it
for
their
particular
use
case
and
then
deploy
that
to
take
advantage
of
of
the
of
the
work.
That's
already
gone
on
in
the
learning.
That's
gone
on.
C
One
of
the
things
I
like
about
having
rj
on
the
liquid
avatar
on
the
steering
committee
of
cardia
is
that
they
are
willing
to
put
out
a
proposal
and
then
guide
it
to
adapt
it
to
real
world
conditions
and
learn
from
what's
happened
to
make
it
stronger
and
more
broadly
useful,
and
so
it's
not
a
hypothetical.
It's
a
practical.
C
Take
a
few
steps
adjust,
take
a
few
steps
and
adjust
and
that
mechanism
the
steering
committee
is
ideal
for
helping
guide
what
has
been
learned
and
where
we
might
go
next
in
terms
of
setting
out
a
roadmap
for
enhancements
and
improvements.
The
the
cardia
as
it
exists
today
is
fairly
basic,
but
it
provides
most
of
the
functionality
that's
needed
for
a
successful
deployment.
A
And
for
those
organizations,
if
you
want
to
work
more
closely
with
rj
and
ken
cardea,
you
can
find
more
information
at
c-a-r-d-e-a
dot,
a-p-p,
that's
cardia.app
and
the
meetings
are
every
thursday
at
noon.
Eastern
time
we
have
one
last
question:
we
have
two
minutes
rj.
So,
let's
see
it's
question
is
what
are
possible
ways
to
monetize
digital
identity
solutions
which,
in
your
business
development
role,
is
great
question
for
you,
or
is
this
even
planned.
B
Yeah
so
still
to
be
defined
right,
so
there's
there's
a
couple
different
ways
or
ideas
on
how
it's
going
to
be
monetized,
but
it's
not
clearly
clearly
defined.
Yet
one
of
them
is
on
the
issuer
side,
so
lots
of
companies
are
are
looking
for
issuers
of
credentials
to
to
subsidize
everything
that
needs
to
happen
in
order
for
this
to
be
profitable
and
be
able
to
be
scalable,
there's
other
entities
that
are
looking
at
the
verifiers.
B
I
think
there
is
somewhat
of
a
consensus
that
this
is
not
going
to
be
a
business
model
that
charges
the
individual
or
the
or
the
consumer.
It's
going
to
be
the
other
pieces
with
you
know,
then.
Then
you
kind
of
step
further
out
and
look
at
all
of
the
other
benefits
to
having
a
higher
trust
layer
on
the
internet.
Slash
your
digital
identity.
You
know
what
does
it
do
to
fraud
and
what
how
much
money
is
saved
on
fraud?
So
therefore,
what
fees
can
be
reduced
and
or
shared
with
other
players
in
the
ecosystem?
B
How
much
money
does
that
save
a
company
that
can
then
use
in
the
ecosystem
to
help
support
the
network?
It's
not
clearly
defined
just
like
every
other
industry
that
that's
nascent
and
starting,
but
there's
lots
and
lots
of
potential,
I'm
not
sure
which
one's
going
to
win.
There's
lots
of
people
looking
at
and
trying
to
figure
it
out,
but
it's
it's
there's
value
there
there's
need
there,
there's
a
pain
there
with
across
the
board,
with
all
the
users
and
I'm
sure
you
know
it
will
rise
to
the
top
and
show
itself.