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From YouTube: Hyperledger Media and Entertainment SIG hosts Cardstack: Building Blocks for the New Creator Economy
Description
A presentation at Hyperledger's Media and Entertainment Special Interest Group on June 1, 2021 with Chris Tse, Founding Director of Cardstack. Cardstack is an open source framework that enables Web 3.0. “Cards” form the building blocks that allow for bringing in data from disparate sources, beautiful UI animations, encapsulated and flexible data schemas, and a quick ramp-up experience. Both JavaScript developers and end-users are empowered to add common application features (CMS, notifications, authentication) using the Card SDK.
To get involved with the Media and Entertainment Special Interest Group, learn more at: https://wiki.hyperledger.org/display/MESIG/
----
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B
Hey
so
hi
everybody
welcome
to
the
the
newest
of
our
regular
meetings
at
the
media
and
entertainment
special
interest
group
at
hyperledger,
and
we
have
a
special
guest
today.
Somebody
with
whom
I
had
excuse
me
very
long,
rich
and
involved
conversation
a
few
months
ago.
The
gentleman
in
question
is
mr
chris
c
who's,
the
founding
director
at
cardstack,
which
proudly
announces
itself
as
the
world's
first
cooperative
sas
platform.
B
B
Projects,
for
example,
what
is
now
verify
media,
but
which
used
to
be
dot,
blockchain,
music
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
so
his
his
provenance
so
to
speak
in
the
blockchain
language
is
something
that
I've
been
following
for
several
years.
So
with
that
in
order
to
explain
to
us
exactly
what
card
stack
is
and
what
it
can.
Do
I
hand
you
over
to
chris.
A
Thank
you
david,
and
thank
you
for
inviting
me
to
this
working
group.
You
know
we
at
cod
stack
has
been
working
on
multiple
projects,
both
as
individuals
as
companies.
As
we
mentioned,
I
worked
on
a
couple
of
blockchain
projects.
The
first
one
was
monograph,
which
is
the
first
nft
platform
I
think,
on
the
bitcoin
blockchain
and
then
obviously
verify
media
in
the
music
space,
big
passion
of
mine,
trying
to
solve
that
music,
metadata
right
distribution
and
royalty
distribution
problem
using
blockchain
as
an
ingredient.
A
Usually
in
new
york,
was
virtual
last
year.
This
is
an
update,
so
this
is
really
the
second
version
of
it
and
today
I'm
going
to
focus
on
a
couple
of
things
that
has
developed
since
the
last
year.
So
when
I
gave
this
talk
last
year
we
were
in
the
middle
of
pandemic
and
then
a
lot
happened,
especially
in
the
blockchain
space.
We've
been
focusing
in
the
permissionless
blockchain
area
around
ethereum
and
stuff,
like
that.
A
So
I
want
to
make
sure
that
we
are
able
to
get
that
a
zeitgeist
and
bring
it
to
the
broader
world,
not
only
people
within
the
kind
of
like
tip
of
the
iceberg
of
working
on
nft,
but
also
hey.
How
does
that
affect
the
media?
Businesses,
especially
I'm
sure
people
in
this
in
a
special
interest
group,
has
some
interest
in
that
particular
area.
A
So
we're
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
three
kind
of
I
would
say
slices
of
the
problem
of
what
we
believe
the
new
created
economy
includes.
One
is
a
real
movement
away
from
the
platform
or
at
least
beyond
the
platform.
The
google,
the
facebook,
the
the
the
the
apple
and
say,
can
protocols
define
a
new
era
of
tech.
The
way
we
build
software
do
they
distribute
it
the
way
we
share
value
that
would
enable
new
opportunities.
So
we'll
talk
about
what
that
means,
specifically
for
media.
A
A
An
age
of
the
creator
entrepreneur,
where
they're
starting
to
invest
in
company,
build
their
own
business,
burger
business,
whatever
it
might
be,
getting
away
from
the
brand
being
the
voice
of
a
brand
and
doing
shilling
on
on
sponsored
post
and
actually
becoming
the
brand
becoming
the
the
the
manufacturer
and
becoming
not
just
of
merch
but
off
of
real
products.
So
we're
gonna,
look
at
the
culture
and
how
that
affects
how
this
create
economy
and
how
that
changes.
A
The
relationship
between
the
the
media,
the
creator,
creates
and
and
and
their
audiences
and
then
finally,
business
2.0,
there's
a
magazine
about
that,
but
most
kind
of
solidify
in
the
uber
lives.
Airbnb.
We
work
with
a
sharing
economy
now
with
blockchain,
especially
on
the
value
sharing
and
the
ability
to
do
a
kind
of
a
defined
economic
relationship,
we're
seeing
people
thinking
about
cooperation.
Why
don't
we
come
together
and
build
our
own
network
now.
This
is
all
experiment.
A
So
this
is
the
three
slices
that
we
will
probably
talk
about
each
one
at
a
time,
so
just
as
a
little
preview
in
tech,
3.0
we're
going
to
talk
about
web3.
What
that's?
What
does
that
mean?
What
do
we
see
at
a
cost
like?
What
would
that
look
like
to
an
end
user?
So
they
can
kind
of
go
and
compose
in
using
the
composability
of
the
underlying
technology,
whether
it's
protocols
or
smart
contracts
or
different
did
protocol
working
together.
A
A
What
is
the
business
3.0
corporate
version
of
those
look
like
so
I
talked
in
roughly
in
in
eco
chung,
each
part
of
these
things
and
our
view
at
cardstack.
Having
worked
on
that
for
a
long
time
what
it
means.
So,
if
there's
no
any
complaint
I'll
go
directly
into
web3
composability,
so
one
of
the
interesting
things
about
web3
as
a
protocol,
so
we're
talking
about
not
the
ui
aspect,
but
just
the
web3
api
pioneered
by
the
ethereum
team
and
kind
of
adopted
by
even
other
competing
dlt
teams
and
say
hey.
A
This
is
a
way
to
inject
this
value
layer
and,
in
some
cases,
an
identity
layer
onto
this
existing
web
pages
by
way
of
using
additional
information
from
the
blockchain
or
beyond,
to
decorate
or
enhance
the
capability.
One
thing
that
became
really
clear
is
that
there's
a
tremendous
amount
of
opportunity
to
compose
the
primitives
and
the
protocols
in
web3
to
create
a
new
application
that
doesn't
have
to
rebuild
the
entire
infrastructure
of
let's
say,
you're
using
a
trading
system.
A
You
can
use
unit
swap
as
a
protocol
and
then
build
a
new
ui
new
aggregator
in
front
of
it.
We're
going
to
see
that
in
media
variatively
soon,
because
what
happens
if
you
kind
of
look
back
at
the
web
2.0
or
the
current
platform
era,
is
that
the
world's
creative
output
of
this
text,
images
audio,
are
basically
siloed
into
these
brands
that
we
all
know
and
love.
And
yes,
it's
great.
A
If
you're
a
creator,
you
get
the
ability
to
reach
your
audience
by
publishing
your
your
tweets
or
your
post
or
uploading
your
song
through
spotify,
and
you
reach
the
audience.
The
problem
is
the
reverse,
which
is
the
money
of
the
audience
and
attention.
The
attention
comes
back
with
counts
and
stuff
like
that,
but
the
money
trickles
down
in
you
know
whether
it's
purchase
a
subscription
or
ad
revenue
in
somewhat
random
ways
and
and
and
smaller
than
you
would
expect.
A
Given
the
the
cultural
impact
of
someone
who
has
a
million
streams
on
spotify,
they
might
get
five
bucks
right.
So
what
happens?
Is
that
even
more
difficult
than
that?
These
kind
of
relationships
are
very,
very
fragile
that
if
you
were
to
move
into
an
area
that
the
platform
doesn't
like,
you
can
get
the
platform
or
it
could
be
difficult
to
survive
an
acquisition
where
one
of
this
platform
gets
kind
of
a
disappear
from
the
face
of
the
earth
and
all
your
followers
goes
away.
A
So
what
we
see
is
that
these
kind
of
text,
images
and
also
the
commercial
terms
of
persian
subscription
can
be
remodeled
using
that
composability
idea.
That
is
deeply
ingrained
in
the
idea
of
a
smart
contract,
but
then
we
push
that
and
kind
of
match
that
in
the
interface
layer.
So
what
that
really
means
is
not
really
that
surprising.
You
can
have
a
website,
you
have
a
modular
space
and
you
bring
different
elements
of
these
components
with
audio
player,
video
players
and
it's
you
know
roots
and
whether
it's
decentralized
or
centralized
storage
you
bring
it
together.
A
A
Can
we
reflect
this
type
of
composability,
starting
out
with
being
able
to
connect
the
wallet,
so
the
user
and
the
creator
and
the
audience
creates
this
relationship
with
each
other,
not
through
this
website
and
the
database
in
it,
but
through
the
wallet
where
there's
still
this
database
as
a
dab?
It's
just
a
couldn't.
A
That
may
actually
require
you
to
do
it
on
chain
transaction
to
modify
something,
and
this
is
all
nested.
So
the
structure
that
you
see
on
the
screen
is
actually
a
a
particular
hierarchy
that
preserves
its
own
boundary,
while
allowing
for
a
nested
thing
for
those
who
have
been
in
the
computer
space
long
enough.
This
is
open
dock
right
in
a
way
to
be
able
to
do
this
kind
of
nesting
embedding
while
preserving
the
objects
itself.
A
So
one
really
big
idea
is
this
idea
that
once
you
have
these
media
modules
that
you
can
then
create
new
types
of
modules
in
a
catalog,
almost
like
uploading,
something
to
a
source
code
repository
or
even
a
package
registry
like
npm?
And
then
you
can
add
new
capability
to
this
space.
The
same
way
someone
can
deploy
new
smart
contracts
to
mainnet
and
then
enhance
the
capability
system,
and
this
is
how
we
can
tap
to
that
composability
and
bring
it
all
together
from
the
user
being
able
to
tap
into
those
things.
But
here's
the
key.
A
So-
and
this
is
the
first
punch
line,
I
believe
that
for
the
building
blocks
will
create
an
economy,
especially
around
the
tech,
the
audience
portability.
The
fact
that
you
connect
your
wallet
to
adapt
and
you
can
re-get
like
you-
can
re-animate
all
your
fans
and
people,
your
relationship,
people
who
bought
your
art.
People
have
subscribed
someone
who
shared
community
token.
A
They
all
show
up,
because
that
type
of
data
is
portable
through
your
self-hosted
wallet,
your
your
phone
as
a
way
to
port
everywhere
else,
and
if
we
are
able
to
break
the
portability
barrier
of
like
exporting
friends
from
facebook
and
switched
it
to
where
your
wallet
right
this
web
3
wallet
that
that
is
actually
cryptographically,
secure
and
communicating
various
protocol
is
your.
It
is
what
who
you're
bringing
with
you.
Then
it
doesn't
really
make
matter
what
experience
or
what
no
code
to
or
even
what
custom
tool.
It
is.
A
Just
you
know
evolving
in
the
software
space,
but
it's
not
locking
your
data
in
it's,
not
restricting
your
ability
to
grow
your
audience
across
these
silos,
so
you're
no
longer
in
those
texts
here,
images
there,
music
is
there
and
you're
just
having
a
multimedia
conversation
with
your
growing
audience
that
you
have
a
direct
relationship
with.
So
that's
the
first
part
how
web
3,
we
believe
it.
The
second
part
around
culture
and
it's
impossible
to
talk
about
media
and
blockchain
without
thinking
about
nfts
and
to
people.
Nft
is
just
a
thing.
A
You
trade,
and
hopefully
you
make
some
money,
but
you
know,
as
a
media,
technologist
I've
been
working
in
the
field
for
almost
20
years
anytime.
I
see
a
new
acronym.
I
try
to
break
down
what
it
is
and
we
look
inside
an
nft
and
try
to
you
know,
tease
the
onion
layers
of
the
thing
and
identify
about
10
discrete
layer
of
what
people
call
nft
kind
of
colloquially.
A
What
they're
actually
pointing
into
is
these
set
of
concepts,
the
transaction
on
chain,
the
proof
of
existence
of
the
binary,
the
ownership
history
and
the
provenance,
the
metadata
that's
associated
with
what
it
is,
the
content
itself,
the
media
content,
the
gif,
the
animation,
the
3d
file,
how
it's
persisted,
who
is
persisting?
It
was
archiving
it.
How
is
it
being
rendered
in
the
player?
Is
it
on
a
website?
A
Can
it
be
portable
to
another
website
who
are
the
participant,
what
kind
of
market
buying
and
selling
renting
and
borrowing
and
then
what
kind
of
permission
you
get
right
with
that
thing,
and
I
can
tell
you
most
of
the
type
of
nft
that's
been
purchased
so
far.
The
permission
is,
you
can
enjoy
it?
It's
like
an
autographed
picture
of
lebron
james
rookie
card
right.
You
have
it
it's
a
little
glass
case
or
acrylic
place,
but
you
don't
own
the
right
to
use
it
in
a
commercial.
You
don't
have
the
ability
to
reproduce
it.
A
You
don't
even
have
derivative
rights
to
build,
make
an
artwork
based
on
that.
You
just
have
an
autograph
photos
that
you
can
enjoy
in
your
own
time,
but
that
is
not
necessarily
always
going
to
be
true.
So
we
think
about
what's
happening.
Is
that
the
blockchain
part,
the
dlt
part,
is
really
the
ownership
history
and
that's
valuable
for
that
for
the
thing
for
the
autographed
copy
of
the
lebron
james
photo.
But
what
about
the
other
aspects
of
the
ownership?
Do
you
own
the
ip
rights
you
own,
the
royalty
stream?
A
Is
it
something
that
gets
you
paid
if
you
own
fifty
percent
of
this
speedo
song
and
then
the
media
management,
a
traditional
area
where
we
have
you
know
digital
asset,
catalogs
and
stuff,
like
that?
How
does
that
work
when
things
have
to
be
visible
to
other
people?
What
kind
of
permission
do
we
get?
Do
we
get
the
do?
A
We
hold
back
the
high
resolution,
4k
version,
maybe
the
prores
version
is
not
available
to
collect
it,
but
it's
available
for
licensing
using
this
in
a
film
and
the
part
I
want
to
focus
on
is
the
actual
utility,
the
participant
the
marketing
permission.
I
think
this
is
the
least
explored
part
of
what
nft
can
do.
So,
let's
break
that
down
a
little
bit.
A
So
when
we're
thinking
about
the
the
most
obvious
thing,
which
is,
I
have
an
original
copy
like
the
autograph
photo,
and
I
can
prove
to
the
world
that
I
have
permission
to
prove
to
you
that
I
have
it
and
the
creator.
If
I
sell
it
gets
a
share
and
that's
really
cool
right.
So
if
you
sell
an
nft
on
certain
platform,
that's
to
create
a
share.
It's
not
really
a
royalty.
It's
really
a
commission
of
some
sort
like
an
upside
sharing
and
the
creator
gets
the
stuff.
A
But
if
you
look
at
the
other
use
case,
that
gets
a
little
bit
closer
to
what
media
businesses
used
to
do.
I
have
a
license:
that's
a
market
for
licenses
royalty,
free
whatever
I
mean,
there's
a
licensee
and
your
permission
is
to
make
a
derivative
work.
There's
no
reason
this
cannot
map
to
the
blockchain
dlt
record,
the
media
management
and
the
the
the
full
rest
version
and
the
ability
to
interact
with
these
things
and
and
from
a
commercial.
Like
end
user
retail
point
of
view,
there
are
membership
that
you
can
buy.
A
A
He
has
all
my
creative
friends,
twenty
of
us,
one
of
us,
if
you
own
any
of
our
nft,
you
get
a
automatic
subscription
for
one
year
for
our
joint
group
or
community,
and
that's
really
using
the
media
itself
as
the
artifact
to
determine
what
you
can
do
with
it,
the
utility
of
getting
a
discount
getting
an
access
through
that
and
then
finally
rights
holder.
Sorry,
so
if
you
own
this
ip,
not
just
the
autographed
photo
the
actual
photo
itself,
then
maybe
a
music
would
be
much
easier
to
reason
about.
A
If
I
own
fifty
percent
of
the
com
musical
work
rights
of
this
thing,
I
can
get
a
split
for
the
next
20
years
of
royalty
coming
from
the
societies
and
stuff
like
that.
That
is
currently
not
being
done,
and
obviously
the
work
that
I've
done
in
verify,
media
and-
and
it's
focused
on
that,
my
my
work
that
I
did
with
a
monograph
with
talking
some
more
of
the
odd
things.
A
But
I
think
the
focus
I
have
right
now
is
around
this
idea
of
membership
and
this
formation
of
these
new
entities
that
otherwise
would
not
come
together,
if
not
for
the
ability
for
them
to
make
deals
using
code.
So
this
is
a
really
powerful
thing,
so
we
did
some
mock-up
of
what
that
might
look
like.
So
so
this
would
be
creating
an
item
in
nft
and
then
you
can
decide
what
your
creative
share
could
be.
A
You
can
say
I
will
only
get
10
discount
if
you're
a
super
fan,
and
that
could
be
because
you
own
some
community
tokens
or
you
own,
some
nfts,
but
these
kind
of
things
go
way
beyond
what
shopify
allows
you
to
do
and
if
someone
say
hey,
I
want
to
sell
nft
on
shopify.
Well,
shopify
have
to
think
through
all
these
things,
the
way
it
connects
to
addresses
and
and
deposit
accounts
and
smart
contract
wallets
and
dows,
but
I
think
there's
a
new
opportunity
to
use
that
kind
of
tech.
A
Three
point
of
the
protocol
to
rebuild
a
lot
of
the
kind
of
idea
of
e-commerce
and
relationship
and
how
to
make
money
through
these
media
exchanges.
So
that
brings
me
to
my
second
punchline,
which
is
the
media
itself.
Is
the
new
merch
right,
so
we
have
been
in
a
situation
where,
where
musicians
and
whatever
is
relying
on
even
influencer
of
selling
physical
goods
right
or
getting
affiliate
links
for
amazon
to
sell
you
a
physical
box
that
shows
up
on
your
doorstep
to
make
any
money.
A
But
I
do
believe
that,
with
this
digital
type
of
goods,
nft
being
the
very
very
beginning
of
that-
but
the
utility
of
that
like
what
are
you,
what
are
digital,
artifacts
you're
buying?
What
are
the
tools
that
allows
you
to
do
it
that
allows
us
to
think
about
that
as
the
monetization,
the
media
itself
is
the
monetization
not
just
subscription
access
to
every
music
but
the
actual,
unique
items
that
gives
you
different
type
of
permission.
It's
kind
of
like
a
game.
A
Now
the
last
part
is
payments
and
how
that
glues
it
and
that
kind
of
currency
in
a
in
a
current
in
a
water
flow.
You
want
to
make
sure
that
these
relations
of
people
forming
actually
conducts
electricity
have
currents
through
them,
and
those
currency
is
a
type
of
payments,
so
consumer
payments
is
fairly
easy
to
do.
You
can
apple
pay
and
buy
subscription
on
apple,
one
or
spotify,
but
the
problem
you
have
is
that
once
you
go
beyond
I'm
paying
this
person,
you
know
a
hundred
percent
of
the
thing
once
you
have
things
with.
A
The
splits
where
you
have
to
start
triggering
is
that
okay,
I
owe
10
to
this
thing
and
then
I
split
it
between
the
two
rights
owner
and
they
have
their
own
relationship
and
that
gets
split
up.
This
stuff
gets
really
complicated
and
for
my
experience,
working
in
music
industry,
this
is
really
most
of
the
headaches
and-
and
the
idea
here
is
that
this
is
really
not
a
good
fit
for
on-chain
processing
right.
This
type
of
recursive
bulk
batch
processing
of
many
many
lines
of
of
statements
and
playbacks.
A
And
then
we
use
transaction
history,
it's
kind
of
like
analyzing
the
blockchain
and
use
off-chain
computation,
analytic
technique
like
data
science,
stuff
aggregation
for
people
who
are
familiar
with
ai
machine
learning
pipeline
the
python
ecosystem
to
like
get
the
data
frames
and
analyze
them
and
do
successive
set
of
processing
to
create
the
proportional
distribution
which
then
goes
back
on
chain
through
a
technique
called
merkle
payment.
Proof
where
we
tell
a
blockchain
say
this
is
how
much
you
are
allowed
to
pay
up
to
this
amount
in
this
period.
A
And
then
you
can
just
come
as
a
participant
to
kind
of
pull
the
payment
out
to
you
and
pay
the
fees
or
the
transactional
fees
to
bring
whatever
is
owed
to
you
from
this
top
line.
Let's
say
two
percent
of
four
percent
into
your
wallet
and
you
can
spend
it
again.
So
this
combination
of
on-chain
action,
off-chain
computes,
allow
us
to
have
a
much
more
credible
way
of
going
back
to
people
who
have
done
royalty
processing
as
a
living
and
say
hey.
A
A
So
we're
working
on
that
stuff,
like
that,
it's
launching
in
about
months,
so
I'm
excited
to
have
you
guys
play
with
it
again
it's
web
3.
So
it's
compatible
with
all
any
ethereum
style
wallet,
we're
deploying
in
a
public
permission,
permission
list
chain
called
x,
die
chain
and
we
aim
to
distribute
to
any
evm
compatible
blockchain,
including
the
ones
in
the
hyperledger
family,
but
here's
my
last
punchline
economic
participation
is
new
engagement.
A
So
right
now
we
think
about
social
media
engagement
of
likes
and
favorites
and
subscription,
but
with
this
ability
for
that
wallet
that
has
your
membership
and
also
as
the
payment
you
start
inverting
some
relationship
you're,
seeing
that
people
are
selling
nfts
in
exchange
for
funding
the
next
project
kind
of
like
using
nft
as
a
type
of
kickstarter,
where
their
unique
rare
goods
becomes.
The
first
thing
that
the
super
fans
buy.
A
We
believe
there's
a
lot
more
interesting
way
for
fans
and
for
people
who
are
consuming
or
want
to
participate
in
community
of
creators
to
economically
participate
in
a
more
substantial
way
than
they
like
and
stuff
like
that.
So
I
think
this
ingredient
of
the
economic
stuff
is
what
drawn
us
kind
of
out
of
our
more
enterprise
oriented
thinking
around
how
to
help
businesses
that
are
doing
media
and
say
you
know
I
gotta.
A
We
gotta
figure
out
how
this
economic
energy
is
gonna,
be
channeled,
and
that's
why
we
spend
the
last
year
in
the
public
blockchain
space
to
really
figure
out.
What's
going
on
so
in
summary,
web3
composable,
ui,
extensible
media
format
and
the
hosting
is
decentralized,
doesn't
matter
what's
host
because
the
wallet
contains
information,
the
nft
they
have
to
have
new
utility
different
participants
will
come
and
there
might
be
additional
tokens
or
type
of
exchangeable
assets.
A
As
for
the
underlying
rights
and
d5,
we
need
to
process
the
top
line,
so
we
can
have
a
transparent
employment
payment
split,
and
I
think
that
idea
of
having
media
flow
one
way
and
having
the
value
flow
back
in
the
same
force.
Maybe
more
amplify
is
going
to
be
what
will
compel
creators
and
move
outside
the
little
silos
and
boxes
that
the
web
2
platform
containing
them
and
actually
get
to
this
point.
A
So
in
summary,
we
do
a
quite
a
bit
of
these
products.
First
party
product
like
card
space,
which
is
the
no-code
tool
and
the
payment
app
itself
and
the
catalog
for
these
media
components,
audio
players
and
nft
modules
and
templates
so
that
we
can
actually
help
people
create
and
launch
transact
and
reward
and
then
use
that
revenue
and
that
energy
to
build
more
too.
So
we
can
complete
this
virtual
cycle,
but
we're
not
a
product
company
we're
actually
a
technology
protocol
non-profit
foundation.
A
So
we
hope
that,
as
we
build
these
product
experiences
and
perfect,
what
people
can
do
in
payment
and
building
website
and
sharing
code
and
maybe
even
forming
new
type
of
organization
through
membership,
that
underlying
we're
building
the
design
system.
So
they
can
be
reused,
like
material
design
from
google,
allow
people
to
compose
the
ui
together
an
application
framework
as
you
go
beyond
just
a
blockchain
application
that
you
have
the
bridge
existing
system,
how
to
look
like
some
hosted
service.
Some
of
them
are
just
to
provide
the
developer
on-ramp.
A
Some
of
them
actually
provide
some
useful
daily
service.
You
know
the
build
and
then
multi-chain
protocols
the
ability
to
tap
into
various
type
of
ledger.
Certain
things
don't
make
sense
in
permissionless
ledger
that
may
make
sense
in
an
instantiation
from
a
consortium
working
together.
Let's
say,
media
rights
is
a
good
example.
We
see
that
more
of
it
as
a
private
blockchain
implementation
than
a
public
one,
but
it
doesn't
really
matter.
This
is
sitting
underneath
that
abstraction
of
the
application
framework
sdk.
A
B
B
A
Sure
so
we're
starting
with
payment.
First,
even
though
there's
not
particular
audience,
we've
been
working
on
the
framework
of
how
to
do
composable
media,
which
is
a
hard
problem,
independent
of
blockchain
and
dlt
right.
That's
just
a
problem.
I've
been
working
on
since
the
r
d
day
when
I
was
working
for
make
media
company
think
about
content
marginalization
and
that
this
asset
management,
that's
a
continuation
of
an
open
source
version
of
that
vision
that
I've
been
working
on.
Basically
my
entire
career,
so
we've
been
working
on
three
versions
of
that.
A
A
we've
been
working
on
how
to
do
schema,
driven
packaging
using
javascript
and
the
dom
as
the
primary
way
to
bring
that
together.
So
it's
not
like
trying
to
force
fit
xml
and
single
source
publishing
into
the
web.
That
doesn't
really
want
anything
to
do
with
it,
so
we
kind
of
adopted
javascript
as
our
language,
so
we
can
be
more
compatible
with
the
type
of
experience,
designers
and
developers
that
we
see
so
we're
building
something
pretty
deep.
It's
schema
driven
a
lot
of
the
xslt
concept
we're
working
on.
A
We
were
part
of
w3c,
the
previous
organization.
It's
been
flattened
into
things
that
javascript
development
developer.
That
knows,
json
will
be
comfortable
with
that's
ongoing.
That
has
not
stopped
it's
a
hard
problem
to
solve.
The
protocol.
Stuff
was
a
bit
easier
once
we
realized
that
around
q4
of
last
year
that
the
layer
two
chains
are
able
to
work,
and
then
we
have
enough
smart
contract
wallets
and
the
wallet
connect
technology
and
your
phone
is
getting
good
enough.
A
We
went
ahead
and
went
and
said:
let's
build
that
economic
engine,
the
consumer
payment
stuff,
that's
launching
in
a
month
we
just
finished
our
audit
internally
for
the
smart
contract.
So
once
we
clean
up
a
couple
of
security
vulnerability,
not
really
it's
really
a
difference
of
opinions.
How
to
do
the
upgradeable
contract,
then
we
will.
A
We
will
open
source
that
and
we'll
launch
that
in
a
mainnet
basis
within
the
next
two
months
in
testnet
and
beta
without
communion,
obviously,
rather
than
that
the
hyperledger
community
as
well
we'd
love
to
get
you
guys,
get
some
feedback.
It
may
look
a
little
bit
disconnected
because
we're
just
focusing
on
having
good
payment
kind
of
wechat
payable
experience.
A
B
Yes,
the
the
concept
of
interoperability.
You,
you,
interestingly,
said
that
you
want
to
facilitate
the
movement
of
dollars.
Are
you
facilitating
the
movement
of
specific
tokens?
You
know?
Is
it
ethereum?
No
bitcoin,
you
know
how?
How
are
you
facilitating
this
this
movement?
I
know
you
very
specifically
mentioned
the
ethereum
wallets,
but
what?
What
is
your,
your
level
of
interoperability?
A
Yeah,
so
I'm
a
big
believer
that
when
you
price
something
in
a
volatile
currency,
it's
very
very
unclear
what
your
intent
is.
If
I
say
that
my
artwork
is
0.5
e,
what
does
that
mean?
Does
it
mean
1,
000,
2,
000
or
3
000
right
so,
and
that
is
a
very
bad
place
of
pricing
things.
You
should
price
something.
Even
if
you
want
to
pay
for
it
using
a
volatile
currency,
you
should
price
it.
A
So
the
way
we
look
at
it
is
that
there
are
many
existing
currency
in
the
permissionless
world,
stable
coins
like
dye
usdc,
which
is
a
stronger
regulatory
regime
behind
it
and
a
backing
of
a
really
really
smart
team
and
from
circle
and
coinbase
making
that
happen.
So
what
we
do
is
we
basically
bridge
those
tokens
into
these
kind
of
faster
media
oriented
networks
and
then
they're
redeemable
for
the
underlying
currency
on
mainnet
or
another
layer,
one
chain,
so
the
interoperability
we're
actually
creating
digital
twins
of
these
tokens.
A
While
we're
on
this
kind
of
network,
where
we're
minting
new
tokens
that
can
be
when
burn
redeem
for
the
actual
stable
coin,
we
do
ex
allow
for
payment.
In
volatile
currency,
so
we
announced
integration
with
a
oracle
provider
called
chain
link
about
a
month
ago,
where
we're
using
their
feed,
which
is
used
for
trading,
but
we're
using
their
fee
to
provide
mid-market
foreign
exchange
rate
with
no
mockups.
A
So
when
you're
paying
a
customer,
you
can
just
take
the
the
exchange
rates
of
usd
to
euro
or
just
e3
usd
or
euro,
and
use
that
to
agree
that
that's
the
price
you
pay
at
that
moment
of
the
transaction
of
the
subscription
of
the
nft
purchase.
So
I
think,
bringing
those
type
of
component
that
exists
in
the
open
loop,
banking,
like
credit
card
visa,
mastercard
and
just
replicating
it
with
the
tools
that
it
has
matured
in
the
last
year
or
so.
A
Actually,
it's
only
been
a
year
that
this
stuff
has
really
been
available,
and
we
start
working
on
this
protocol
allows
us
to
feel
confident
that
we
can
be
interoperable
with
what
comes
next,
but
right
now,
chaining
oracle
die
stable
coin.
Existing
wallet
connect
standard
on
any
deploy,
evm
compatible
chains.
B
Okay,
fantastic
and
thank
you
for
those
details.
I
look
forward
to
chatting
with
you
more
offline
about
some
other
aspects
that
I'm
curious
about.
Personally,
thank
you.
You
very
much.
We've
got
a
series
of
questions
coming
in
simultaneously
on
the
chat
and
on
youtube.
The
first
one
is
very
basic,
which
I'm
sure
will
be
relevant
to
a
lot
of
people,
which
is
what
do
we
do
if
we
feel
we
have
a
project,
that's
ready
to
collaborate
with
you
guys,
what's
the
best
way
to
contact
you
and
and
propose
an
idea.
A
We've
been
using
our
discord
as
a
way
to
allow
new
people
interesting
from
the
technology
aspects
of
the
project.
Now,
obviously,
we
are
taking
the
approach
that
we're
doing
the
first
party
app
basically
eating
our
own
dog
food,
using
our
sdk
using
a
protocol
and
building
triple
a
experiences
from
a
design
point
of
view.
Polish
app
store
approval
of
thinker
magic,
it's
a
lot
to
take
on
for
a
team
to
take
on
a
wallet
and
a
dapp
framework
and
a
payment
protocol
at
the
same
time.
A
But
I
believe
that
if
we
don't
do
the
integration
and
build
a
consumer-facing
product,
it
would
be
very
difficult
for
us
to
come
to
a
community
member
come
to
and
say
hey,
we
can
help
you
build
your
thing.
I
can
tell
you
that
I've
been
having
quite
a
few
conversations
with
people
coming
to
me
and
say
I
want
to
have
this
new
way
of
building
this
type
of
licensed
nft
platform.
Could
I
use
your
tools
and
that's
all
really
good?
A
I
people
talk
to
me
about
building
new
types
of
development
tools
and
that
that
that
enables
have
on
on
the
fly
development.
That's
also
really
interesting,
but
I
gotta
say
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
ability
to
actually
support
third
party
teams.
Our
goal
is
to
get
our
sdk
ready
understand
the
use
case.
I
would
love
to
have
conversation
understand
use
case,
so
we
can
plot
much
more
precisely.
A
What
are
the
common
set
of
developer
or,
like
you
know,
third-party
features
that
we
need
to
get
ready,
so
we
can
have
people
build
on
their
starting
2022.
and
it's
we
want
to
do
a
lot
of
integration
this
year
of
our
parts
that
were
mentioned,
but
but
yeah
do
reach
out
now.
It
would
be
better
for
me
and
my
team
to
know
what
people
are
planning
to
do
earlier
than
later.
A
I
think
so
I
think
the
the
hackathon
that's
most
likely
to
be
ready
to
go
is
our
cod
pay
sdk,
which
is
around
the
payments?
There's
also
a
lot
of
very
interesting
thing
about
integrating
new
types
of
community
structures,
we're
working
on
a
commerce
protocol
like
shopify
for
web3,
which
allow
for
discounts
and
and
and
and
for
different
membership,
whether
it's
computer
token
earning
that
would
be
an
interesting
thing
to
connect
to
the
existing
ecosystem
of
people
playing
around
with
dows.
B
A
I
think
it's
very
easy
to
go
to
open
source
project,
read
about
it
and
not
know
what
you
can
start.
I
think
part
of
the
reason
we're
spending
so
much
time
in
building
basically
final
product.
That
could
be
a
silicon
valley.
Funding
company
after
18
months
is
that
you
can
look
at
the
source
code
and
see
how
we
do
it
and
figure
out
how
you
can
add
to
it.
So
I
don't,
I
think,
the
way
we
entice
developers
that
don't
worry
about
the
product
design.
A
We
have
that
to
a
degree
that
you
can
start
thinking
about
how
it
integrates
how
it
can
be
augmented.
We
are
very,
very
specific.
I
actually
recorded
talk
about
a
week
ago
about
the
different
sdks.
So
if
you're
the
web
developer
with
the
card
sdk,
which
is
about
building
javascript
and
css,
that
can
be
modulous
in
that
catalog,
you
can
drag
and
drop.
Carpe
sdk
is
mostly
about
connecting
to
other
protocols,
maybe
even
things
where
you
earn
some
revenue
and
you
don't
withdraw
and
you
get
a
yield
on
that.
Those
are
all
possible.
A
We
haven't
done
it
yet,
but
we
invite
the
community
who
have
interest
in
doing
that
type
of
stuff
to
connect
that
protocol
and
our
pool
and
our
automation
to
other
things
and
finally,
the
analytics
stuff.
It's
also
something
that
I'm
exploring
especially
people
in
the
data
science
community,
extremely
salivating
on
the
move
away
from
proof
of
work
from
the
ethereum
blockchain,
which
has
you
know,
pros
and
cons.
But
the
thing
about
is
a
lot
of
gpu.
A
Freeing
up
wouldn't
be
great
to
use
those
things
for
actual
real
royalty
computation,
so
so
there's
an
opportunity
also
to
discuss
how
developers,
who
build
algorithms
that
is
being
run
on
these
analytic
nodes
using
the
same
hardware,
that's
deployed
for
ethereum
mining
can
actually
get
a
cut
for
helping
do
that
computation
and
distributing
reward
fairly.
So
these
are
all
kind
of
meta
answer.
Do
you
think
is
that
I
believe
developer
building
tools
that
is
directly
attributing
to
new
actions
and
new
behaviors
should
get
a
tiny
slice
of
that
value.
A
So
it's
not
all
that
different
than
you
creating
a
song
you're,
getting
a
size
of
a
like
a
hit
in
the
70s
you're.
Still
getting
royalty
for
writing
that
song.
I
would
like
to
see
if
developers
can
actually
see
this
as
their
retirement
account.
I
built
a
tool
that
everybody's
using
an
algorithm
everybody's
using
and
therefore
I'm
getting
0.001
percent
of
the
dollar
amount
being
gone
through
the
verifying
pool,
and
that's
my
royalty
for
building
this
essential
utility.
A
This
library
that's
been
used
and
that,
I
think,
is
a
long-term,
sustainable
question
of
how
do
you
get
developer
involved
short
of
saying
we
can
give
them
lots
of
tokens
and
that
that's
that's,
that's
disingenuous
and
non-sustainable.
So
I
think
this
idea
of
a
share
of
their
economic
generated
for
the
developer
as
computed
by
these
analytic
notes,
is
my
kind
of
like
general
answer
to
that
question.
B
A
Yeah,
so
I
think,
there's
been
a
lot
of
focus
in
crypto
payment
to
make
sure
you
can
buy
coffee
or
pizza.
I
think
it's
completely
distracting.
There's
a
bunch
of
people
who
can't
tip
each
other
on
twitter
without
using
paypal
and
sharing
their
home
address
we're
dealing
with
a
much
bigger
problem
in
digital
payments
between
creating
the
fans
and
the
supporters.
Then
we
are
actually
dealing
with
not
being
able
to
use
apple
pay
to
buy
coffee
right.
A
I
think
I
think
that's
why
our
focus
is
almost
entirely
around
this
whole,
like
influencer
post-influencer
economy
and
how
that
becomes
the
the
the
new
type
of
a
real.
You
know,
like
virtual
economy,
being
bigger
than
digital
account
in
a
physical,
real
world,
walk
to
your
corner
store
economy.
So
that
is
our
focus.
Our
focus
is
to
understand
what
creator
needs
and
how
crypto
doesn't
becomes
this
kind
of
distractor,
but
actually
becomes
an
enabler
to
the
type
of
economic
relations
they
want
to
form.
That's
our
absolute
focus,
however.
A
Our
sdk
is
designed,
so
they
can
work
very
much
like
wechat
pain,
alipay,
so
we'll
certainly
make
sdk
for
point
of
sale,
developers
or
manufacturer
to
integrate
it
as
easily
as
they
do
any
qr
code
scanning
thing.
So
qr
code
is
the
main
way
we
connect
the
wallet
to
adapt,
or
it
could
also
be
a
terminal
on
a
coffee
shop.
B
A
No,
I
think,
I
think
the
important
thing
as
a
developer
of
a
product
project
that
sits
on
top
of
this
ecosystem.
We
are
extremely
reliant
on
the
progress
that
we
made
in
organization
like
in
hyperledger,
where
these
protocol,
these
basic
running,
runtimes
and
building
blocks,
are
secure,
stable
and
usable.
A
We
are
imagining
use
cases
on
top
of
these
things,
but
we
absolutely
rely
on
whether
that
is
fabric
or
evm
based
chains
or
or
bezier
or
whatever.
Maybe
it's
all
about
the
more
solid
those
things
the
more
we
can
climb
higher.
We
rely
on
those
foundation
and-
and
whoever
said
that,
yes,
I
think
the
infrastructure
has
to
get
better.
We
can
only
build
as
tall
as
infrastructure
is
strong.
A
We've
tried
our
best
with
what
exists
today,
but
would
love
to
have
more
things
in
the
greenhouse
come
into
being
and
say:
hey
d
id
or
decentral
identity.
That's,
let's
use
that
as
the
foundation
we're
trying
to
build
that
experience
orchestration.
So
we
we
want
more
parts
and
more
material.
We
can
use.
A
It's
a
little
bit
easier,
digitally
so
in
with
digital
goods,
we're
actually
building
an
inventory
system.
So
if
you
say
you're
going
to
sell
an
nft,
I
know
that's
a
contrived
example.
You
have
to
consign
your
nft
to
a
contract
and
lose
control
of
it.
So
when
you
actually
purchase
and
when
the
payment
clears
we
automatically
fulfill
by
protocol
like
fulfilled
by
amazon,
we
actually
ship
it
out
without
the
involvement
for
the
from
the
merchant.
A
So
we
thought
about
using
protocol
like
zero
x,
which
is
another
type
of
protocol
that
has
a
kind
of
like
you
know,
ebay
style
so,
like
the
other
person
will
ship
it
once
it
closes.
We
decided
to
do
it
at
amazon
fulfilled
by
amazon
style,
where
you
actually
lose
control.
As
a
merchant
of
your
inventory.
Now
when
it
comes
to
physical
good,
there's
a
lot
a
bunch
of
project
working
on.
How
do
you
ensure
payment
through
a
combination
of
wet,
wear
and
dry
code?
A
Materium
is
one
of
them
from
veneer,
gupta
and,
and
so
those
are,
the
protocols
that
will
integrate.
Have
them
deal
with
the
last
mile
problem,
then
sure
that
we
say
you
bought
a
gold
bar.
You
actually
have
possession
of
the
gobar
both
legally
and
on
chain
in
a
representational
basis.
For
now
we're
going
to
focus
on
goods
that
we
can
actually
treat
online
as
tokens
or
assets
that
we
can
actually
use
our
commerce
protocol
as
the
fulfillment
aspects
of
it
again.
A
A
So
we
deploy
to
existing
networks,
so
we
do
not
run
our
own
blockchain.
I
don't
think
it's
necessary,
so
we
deployed
to
evm
compatible
blockchain
right
now.
I
like
new
programming
languages.
Maybe
we'll
do
one
on
clara
and
deploying
bitcoin
too,
but
right
now,
all
our
code's
written
in
solidity.
So
it's
decentralized
to
the
degree.
A
smart
contract
deploy
to
a
permission
list
network
is
decentralized
to
the
degree
they
need
to
be
federated.
A
Let's
say:
there's
a
deployment
to
a
private
permission
network,
then
that
would
also
be
decentralized
to
the
degree
of
that.
The
most
important
thing
about
decentralization
is
that
the
code
should
be
open
and
the
state
has
to
be
shared.
So
as
soon
as
there's
a
dlt
and
the
software
that
is
the
protocol
and
the
software,
that's
the
node
is
open
source.
I
believe
it's
decentralized
enough,
because
anybody
can
write
their
own
instance
and
use
the
protocol
as
as
they
see
fit
with.
That
being
said,
I
do
believe
there's
a
value
to
cross-honor
each
other.
A
That
would
be
a
centralized
governance
function
in
a
way
in
a
decentralized
protocol
where
we
will
recognize
all
these
things,
as
is
the
same
so
that
there
are
some
utility
that
we
can
provide
to
make
it
more
easy
to
interact
from
and
more
safer
to
interact
for
users.
So
there
will
be
some
governance
feature
that
would
be
progressively
decentralized,
to
say
the
least.
A
A
But
it's
a
kind
of
philosophy
I
have
is
pay
for
the
advertising
in
a
community
token
and
then
so
that
the
person
who
wants
to
be
front
of
line
on
the
front
of
the
top
sponsored
listing
have
to
pay
money,
buy
a
token-
and
you
know
maybe
raise
this
price
and
then
what
we
do
at
the
end
of
that
advertising
being
run
is
burn.
The
token
redistribute
the
value
of
what
has
been
purchased
by
a
powerful
rich
party
as
a
ambient
denominate
denomination
reduction.
So
everybody
got
a
little
piece
of
that.
A
I
think
that's
the
right
sustainable
way.
Otherwise
the
advertising
dollars
keep
getting
into
mark
zuckerberg
and
then
he
gets
more
powerful
than
what's
the
fun
of
that
so
burn
the
advertising
dollars,
but
let
them
spend
it
buy
from
the
community
right
through
the
token
raise
the
value
of
the
network
burn
it
redistribute
the
value.
A
I
don't
know
what
that
means,
but
I
think
I
saw
the
threats
in
the
thing
I
consider
this
this
whole
endeavor
of
decentralized
commerce
or,
like
decentralized
workflow,
to
be
something
that
is
about
multi-step
processes.
So,
anytime,
you
have
multiple
steps
you
need
to
take.
You
want
to
change
them
together,
step.
One
step,
two
milestone.
A
One
milestone
two
supply
chain
has
elements
of
that,
because
I'm
supplying
goods
from
one
port
to
another
one
I
have
to
keep
track
of
them,
so
obviously
we
can
put
in
the
threat
to
make
it
happen,
but
what's
interesting
about
it,
even
in
the
current
version
that
we're
going
live
in
about
a
month,
bridging
of
the
token
like
taking
something
from
mainnet
kind
of
bringing
over
the
bridge
making
available
and
then
splitting
apart
and
giving
people
prepaid,
balance
like
prepaid
card
to
use
to
buy
media
right.
That
is
a
digital
supply
chain.
A
So
it's
a
supply
chain
of
tokens
right
token
suppliers
but
supply
chain.
Nonetheless,
so
I
think
what
we
can
do
and
I
think
what
we
ought
to
do
is,
I
believe,
in
finding
the
shape
of
the
future
solution
for
particular
category
like
supply
chain
by
looking
for
the
digital
native
version
of
it
and
then
backporting
it
to
the
existing
world
versus
injecting
technology
into
the
existing
way.
Crates
work.
A
I
think,
there's
a
lot
to
learn
about
this
kind
of
you
know.
Real-Time
automation,
chat
based
threat-based
communication,
automation,
bots.
I
think
that's
really
where
supply
chain
is
going
so
that
if
I
were
to
say
this
is
crazy,
I'm
a
creator.
I
want
to
sell
something.
Here's
a
new
cup
buy
it
boom
supply
chain.
I
want
someone
to
make
the
cup
I
just
promise
to
ship.
If
that
can
be
done
through
a
thread,
I
think
that's
a
new
supply
chain.
B
A
I've
not
been
involved
in
that
we've
been
focusing
mostly
on
the
non-consumer-facing
site
for
a
long
time
because
we're
building
frameworks,
but
I
can
tell
you
that
what
is
very
encouraging
is
we
see
a
lot
of
project
picking
one
of
the
silos
or
verticals
of
like
text,
media,
music,
digital
art,
generative,
art,
ai
and
then
running
with
it
and
building
something.
I'm
a
bit
worried
that
without
a
a
a
protocol
to
bring
the
media
back
together,
we're
just
replacing
the
logo
web
2
on
those
silos
with
the
logo
web
3..
A
A
You
need
to
do
it's
just
an
npm
module
that
we
want
them
to
open
source
that
player
so
that
you
can
compose
an
audio
audio
player
with
another
player
that
competes
with
a
different
network
different
model
hard
to
convince
the
twitter
and
facebook
to
adopt
that,
hopefully
easier
with
with
people
in
web
3.
That's
actually
benefited
from
the
compulsively
underneath
it
to
agree
that
they
will
have
composability
in
the
ui
level.
B
A
Desperate
ones,
I
think
I
think
the
the
the
the
the
nft
market
shows
you
that
when
there's
new
money,
people
who
needs
a
new
money
comes,
I
don't
think
facebook
is
particularly
or
looking
at.
Crypto
is
somehow
anything
big,
but
I
think
you
know
we're
gonna
see
a
resurgence
of
things
that
we
believe
are
not
good
models
like
journalism
and
subscription
content.
All
those
things
we've
written
off
have
a
new
start.
The
same
way
we
thought
e-commerce
were
written
off
until
amazon.
A
Just
grew
like
crazy,
so
I
think,
looking
at
things
has
been
abandoned
on
the
wayside
on
the
road
and
see
if
those
things
can
come-
and
I
see
a
lot
of
ip
licensing
opportunity
here
and
I'm
hearing
a
lot
of
noise
around
that
and
people
want
that
they
want
those
relationship
affinity
that
they
know.
So
I
think
there's
going
to
be
a
really
interesting
mixture
between
creator
brand
licenses
and
new
type
of
products,
both
digital
and
that
come
into
play.