Hyperledger Foundation Meetups, 8 Dec 2022

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From YouTube: Hyperledger Fabric and consortium blockchain challenges

Description

A virtual meetup hosted by Daniel Szego on December 8, 2022 about Hyperledger Fabric and consortium blockchain challenges.

Bringing a Hyperledger Fabric network up an running in a complex multi-customer environment is not without challenges. In this presentation, we will summarize some of the problems, issues, misconceptions and challenges that might arise, including but not limited to:

- The place of agile methodologies in blockchain development
- Designing cryptography versus business logic
- Fabric performance, privacy
- Multiparty enterprise operation, like multiorganisational ticket handling, monitoring, disaster recovery or cryptographic materials.

The presentation acts more as a problem statement summarizing mostly the possible problems and challenges of the field, without going into the details of specific solutions or tools. We hope that further active community contribution either during the meetup or as subsequent meetups will fill the white spaces.

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Hyperledger – Open Source Blockchain Technologies

Hyperledger is an open source community focused on developing a suite of stable frameworks, tools and libraries for enterprise-grade blockchain deployments.
It serves as a neutral home for various distributed ledger frameworks including Hyperledger Besu, Fabric, Sawtooth, Indy, as well as tools like Hyperledger Avalon, Cactus and libraries like Hyperledger Aries, Ursa. Learn more about Hyperledger projects: https://www.hyperledger.org/use

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#Hyperledger #Blockchain
License
Creative Commons Attribution license (reuse allowed)

A

Right you're live.

B

So hey good morning, good afternoon and good evening, everybody, uh depending on the time zone. uh This is Daniel segu and in this High collection, Meetup uh I'm, just gonna, give a presentation practically and raise some issues on on higher fabricants and, more generally, on Consortium blockchain challenges, uh but absolutely from my side. I'm I'm. Basically a software architect uh dealing with with different blockchain challenges.

B

I would say not just Consulting blockchain challenges, but General blockchain challenges like more than five years and then I would say uh this Consortium topic is very interesting, so one one big area at the time dealing with is high pressure fabric. Of course, the other word is a little bit like the the classical blockchain, but it's like more like ethereum polygon and then like the open, blockchain, but I would say so. The idea is for today, basically um I got like like 14 slides up that I'm gonna cover um it looks that way.

B

It's it's more, like kind of a problem statement. Basically uh so I want I will start basically with pretty high level issues and then I try to go a little bit more into the details of like like hyperledger fabric uh problems, uh but it's gonna be more like a problem statement. uh So I'm not gonna, be like.

B

I will try to give some answers, but I won't go very much deep into the technical details and Technical answers again. It works like a problem statement, and hopefully there's gonna, be like a couple of subsequent meetups and presentations on on different answers for the problems that I raise. Actually uh here in this presentation, uh my proposition would be the following: I mean I, mean I'm sure as I. Just as these issues are or such as race problems, you might as well have answers or solutions for that uh I say I would finish.

B

Actually my presentation, uh you are very likely to share your experience. uh It just looks that way. I just won't wouldn't like to stop my presentation in the middle for like for like 10 minutes or 15 minutes discussing one thing um so I will propose the following: I can likely stop my presentation and answer questions if you, if you don't understand uh anything uh anyway, my my network is not too stable at the moment, so it might happen that I will be dropped out for like 20 seconds uh during the call.

B

So so we we might as well have some some unintended breaks anyway, uh but I would say uh if, if you can, if you want to react uh basically for for such topics, for us for such issues in uh yeah I mean you might as well know some solution uh or you want to share some some some best practices or ideas uh that you know or some experiences. uh You are very welcome to do it.

B

Do it I would say uh first during the presentation you can, you can welcome to share it in the chat and then at the presentation. uh We're gonna have a lot of time. So actually we can discuss topics uh you can you can very likely share your experience on on possible points and on possible solutions as well, so that would be actually.

B

My presentation is like I would say: it's like 40 minutes, I'm I'm, not always very good, estimating the time but I think we're gonna finish in 40 minutes and after that uh we have like, like 30, minutes more uh to discuss different topics uh in details or, if you have like experience and so on or or maybe best practice solutions for different uh different points, then you are. You are very much encouraged to share it.

B

So this is the agenda for today, uh I'm gonna, just gonna start very much yeah from a from a high level perspective of starting with blockchain and Enterprise systems application development cryptography. uh So these are basically issues uh that you might face. uh If you, if you deal with Consortium blockchain Solutions, then I got one slide.

B

How or what's what's my point of view of of hi development in the blockchain skin, especially in the Consortium blockchain skin, and then we're gonna start goals with more deeper into into technical parts and infrastructural parts, so I'm, just gonna I'm, just having one slide on fabric infrastructure and the orchestrations. Some consideration on that on privacy. That's already getting to be more fabric fabric uh specific uh than on designing for higher availability and performance. Then one big part is like.

A

He'll be back in a second, as he was saying, his network was a little unstable, he'll he'll be back in a second well we're giving him a second. If there's any questions, comments feel free to come off, mute or type in chat.

B

So again, that was that was the unintended break, uh so actually, uh after backup recovery and cryptographic material, these are like, like a little bit uh more technical but again I'm, just gonna I'm, just gonna write these questions practically not necessarily give answers, and then at last but not least, we can. uh We can speak a little about like like my proposition of of further Community contribution and, of course we can very likely discuss anything at the end. So that would be the plan for my presentation and I.

B

Started with the first time, this game very much so so, basically, what is what is actually a Consortium blockchain uh at all and then I would just I mean I have more experience with the two edges, so I have like 15 years experience with Enterprise systems. I mean enterprise system is of one organizational system up, even if you, if you, if you install like a distributed database or something similar, you get one organization to deal with so to develop, to delivery, to install to maintain to operate, to make governance for your system.

B

That's practically one company uh that you have to deal with, uh one way of of communicating uh one infrastructure, team of One, customer one set of requirements, and so on and so on. So that's like classical enterprise system development and I have some experience. On the other hand as well, it's like it's like the real public, decentralized blockchains I would say that that's in a way.

B

So, basically, if you, if you want to set up your boat and do something with a real power polygon, then the then the idea is basically that code is is low. So basically you can set up your environment and and attach to the network, but you have to accept the network. So so you can't do anything. This is the network. uh You should actually behave the same way up. That's that's! The code basically is coded on the on the public blockchain network up. Certainly there might be some some exceptions.

B

So if you are very much a hacker you might as well, you might as well consider like like doing like double spending attacks or something similar with like bribing or or having a lot of miners or bribing, basically, the validators and so on, but that's not the usual setup, so the usual setup is that the blockchain is pretty big. It's like having I, don't know eight of the notes at the Ethereal Network.

B

You are just one node and then basically, you have to be conformed with the rules that already existed by by the rest of the rest of the network. So what is the Consortium blockchain are? Is it something which is which is more similar to an enterprise system, or is it something which is more similar to a decentralized to a fully decentralized blockchain? And while this is this is hard this? This is hard weeks uh to answer uh because I mean it depends.

B

So if you have like a console machine blockchain with like 50 companies, I would say that's more like you should. You should behave more like as in a decent life blockchain. So if one company practically attaches to the network, then the company should basically accept the the rules of the rest. I would say so that's more like something which is a decentralized blockchain.

B

But if you have a console assume that you are between two or three companies, that's that's more similar to a classical Enterprise, but uh which means that yeah I mean I mean you should not deal with one customer but like with two or three, but basically the requirements and the expectations are more similar to an Enterprise System.

B

So what about hyperledger fabric? Well, high pressure fabric is tricky in this sense because it's a complex framework of realizing many many different scenarios. It's it's an Enterprise, blockchain I would say so. You can have like Channels with 30 companies, which behaves more like a little bit like a decent sliced blockchain, and you can have live channels actually with like two companies as well, which behaves more similar to a classical Enterprise work.

B

uh But the situation is even more complicated uh because because you can have like mixed Solutions, so just imagine that you have something which is a channel uh with 30 companies, uh so you might as well see that works a little bit similar to a decentralized blockchain. But in this channel you get a private data collection with free companies. So it means that actually in your blockchain there are systems or there are Parts which are more decentralized, having 30 companies on board.

B

But basically there are Parts as well, which are more similar to an Enterprise System. So it's challenging I would say: uh Consortium blockchain is challenging and hyperledger fabric can be challenging as well. Basically- and you should basically prepare for these challenges, if you, if you, if you deliver around hyper larger fabric,.

B

uh Of like developing something with uh with like hyperledger Fabric or Consortium, blockchain or blockchain at all, and then so from a development perspective.

B

The question is usually, if you, if you do like classical application development or if you, if you design a cryptographic protocol and I, would say the two things are totally different from from each other. So if you do like a classical application development, then you need application developers. You need to set up the business rules and implement this business rules and that's like classical application development uh and, of course, I mean you can find a lot of good application developer on the market uh doing that stuff.

B

But if you design like cryptographic protocols, you need to have free photographer and basically it's not just the competence, but the projects having like a project needing needed to have like like designing. Basically a cryptographic protocol is totally different from an application development project. It's because designing a cryptographic protocol is usually risky, uh it's more like research or research and development, and otherwise again you need like cryptographer, which is, which is a very it's, a very beautiful but but a very specific profession.

B

And so the point is that that, like like 10 years ago or the original idea from blockchain, was to design kind of a multi-party cryptographic protocol, so it wasn't necessarily the idea at the at the early stages to do very much classical application development. uh It was more like you know, I'm in a play for, for cryptographer or or or network professionals, speech, cryptographic, background background and so on, but lately it goes a little bit. I mean very much to the application development side. I mean even with solidity.

B

The language for solidities is pretty similar to like, like Java or JavaScript, uh and if we speak about like hyperledger fabric, of course it looks that way you can. You can develop your chain code uh like, for instance, in Java as well, so you might as well. Imagine that hey I mean we can just have some a couple of like Java or JavaScript developer on board, and then we are done. They can do the development. But the point is this is not necessarily true.

B

So if you design blockchain, it's always critical uh to evaluate value where you land so is it? Is it really a purely application development task, or do you need to have to deal with like different cryptographic stuff? Then? Usually, you need to do a descriptography stuff, because there are like a lot of certificates in.

B

There might be some some requirements that need to have like cryptographic background. Basically, so you might as well say: hey I got a I got a different database. I, don't want to store all of my information in blockchain, but I would say some of the some of the some of my data basically is in a standard database. So then um it might come sexually requirement. Let the extend actually the cryptographic guarantee uh for for transactions and for data uh validity uh for the databases lab.

B

So, for instance, if I assign a transaction with my key I mean I get the data in my blockchain and I would have to have the same guarantee for my uh off chain storage as well. So then it it gets. It gets actually to goes a little bit to the cryptographic world and that's yeah I mean that's something critical question. So if you start actually with application development uh in mind, but you, but you need to have like a lot of cryptographic.

B

Design at the end uh then sure it's, it's not gonna, be a good idea. So, uh basically, if you have, if you know at the beginning, you need to have cryptography and cryptographers on board. um It's gonna be more like a research development project uh and not necessarily something uh which should go, live uh in a certain timeline and in a certain budget.

B

So let me just continue uh with the next slide and it's again it's it's still General, but after that I'm getting to be like more and more specific or technology specific, and this question is uh what about like with AGI development and blockchain and yeah. I would say: I mean agile. Agile is is very fancy at the moment, but basically the original idea of blockchain is totally the opposite of AGI development.

B

It looks that way that I mean the original original idea for, for instance, a solidity code was that you deploy once you can't change, and it's I mean there are. There are already some workarounds how you can do it, but that's somehow the original origin idea of thinking uh you get one one code, uh it shouldn't be developed in an agile it.

B

It shouldn't be developed practically as a mission critical code, uh basically as a piece of code that you put into a satellite which which leaves, for instance, the I, don't know the Mars as an example. So basically, that code should work on the long run as well without any change. That's like Mission, critical or Sandra santopono says it's. It's like a defensive programming. uh That's the original idea for blockchain development.

B

But of course, if you have like, like a small blockchain, uh of course in an Enterprise world, you might as well say hey if we have like just just three companies yeah, why not I mean I mean free companies can agree basically in something, so if they can agree on a on a on on a feature request on a daily basis. So why why shouldn't we actually develop, develop and deliver our changes on a daily basis?

B

uh So the idea is basically uh our proposition, for this part is that you can do basically both in a public blockchain world and in a Consortium blockchain word as well. Agi development, basically up to a proof of concept or or up to basically a prototype version or up to basically something which is the first version of your code. uh It looks that way: I mean in ethereum. You can practically deploy your code differently, I mean if you deploy a hundred times your your code in a daily basis.

B

That's gonna be like 100 different, smart contract and it's not a problem until until you don't want to go, live with it. So if it's like a demo application or if it's a prototype or a mini value product that you can do it hundred times, if, basically, you went live with it and you have some some errors in that. That's a problem basically, and this one is pretty similar in a Consortium blockchain as well.

B

So the idea is not to have like free Enterprises that you have to deal with, but let's we have like 10 Enterprises. So if you want to uh you know, I mean make a daily daily uh uh kind of a daily development or or daily feature request. uh Basically, and you have like 10 Enterprises, uh you don't have a chance of of affecting these 10 Enterprises like on a daily basis. So if you have like Consortium blockchain, the idea is again a similar have like one one product type blockchain.

B

It's I mean it's come by the provider, for instance, and you can deploy on that on a daily basis. You can do shrs, you want, but basically have some kind of a break. uh This break should contain basically the final specification, so you can do the final specification based on these interactions uh on a prototype environment. uh But basically, in this break, uh have a final specification.

B

Have some priority assurance and if you are in the Enterprise world, then have basically a yes that each of these, these Enterprise is actually basically on the code and on the functionality and what they see and then, as you as you start to go, live um in like ethereum, it means uh deploying to a live Network in like hyperledger fabric. It means that you don't install for uh for a very limited hypology infrastructure, but you, but you deliver your infrastructure to the Enterprises as well.

B

So, as you start to deliver actually in production it won't, it won't change very frequently or or if you want to change very frequently, uh it's gonna be difficult in an Enterprise where you need a lot of coordination. uh Usually for that, so that's our proposition uh in terms of it.

A

Yeah, it looks like we lost Daniel again for just a second he'll, be back. As you said earlier, I had some. He has some network uh connected video issues while we're waiting again, if you have any questions, comments, feel free to come off, mute or type in the chat.

C

B

uh Fortunately, that was a break actually um as as I changed slide, uh but let me see the next Point, that's like that's like fabric infrastructure and lower castration. uh Most modern software uh are designed practically for for kind of a mitral surface or or a kind of a containerized application uh which basically needs kind of an orchestration below, um and that's actually the the modern way of of delivering software and delivering like a programmed infrastructure behind.

B

uh So I got more experience like with with Docker, swarm, Docker different kubernetes versions, openshift and then, uh and then stuffs like that. So there might be some some some some very good orchestration designed for blockchain applications. But my experience is basically that this orchestration and these containerization Technologies wasn't or weren't exactly exactly designed, uh basically uh for for blockchains, and the problem is, if you have like, like a dockerized environment, um and you get no orchestration on what you do. Basically you get like I mean. Let me just take the example of kubernetes.

B

uh What you do you just have like ports and you can scale up and scale down bots in a very easy way. If you have like openshift, you get some, you even get some some user experience for that and so on, uh but the original idea of, like kubernetes, that, basically you, if you scare ports uh you scale for for performance or or perhaps for for higher availability uh but the, but the idea of a blockchain is, is absolutely contradicting uh with that. So if you scale generally a blockchain uh node.

B

So if you have, if you have like more notes, for instance in a blockchain network, you scale for something which is a security or for for decentralization. So practically uh if you have a normal application in kubernetes and you scale up, for instance uh like like, like a web server airport uh with like two more instances, it's it's gonna be faster. uh Usually you can.

B

You can put more load uh on it on that if to if you have blockchain and if you have like instead of like, like five notes, you have like thousand notes, then, basically, your system won't be faster. It will be slower uh because actually more nodes should validate your transaction.

B

um So, as I mentioned, blockchain scares for security and decentralization, and it is that it is not something which is, you know, I mean if you, if you speak, somebody who is like a kubernetes professional, um it's not something that they get it right away, for instance.

B

uh So um perhaps for this reason, like you know, increasing number of of the bots in like kubernetes, it is, it is easy, but if you, if you need to increase your blockchain notes, it's it's usually not so easy. uh So if you like, increase the blockchain notes, you know I mean in fabric you have just to to to to join basically one more peer or one more organization to the network.

B

It's it's a it's a struggling, uh but basically it's not just a challenge from a technical point of view, so it's not coincident that it's not exactly the same or the easiest as easy. As with with the kubernetes spot, it is actually something different and then from scaling report. uh So scaling report and joining like another beer or another organization is, is something two different things, so they shouldn't be basically uh mixed up or mixed mixed with each other.

B

uh So that's one thing: um the second one is is something which is Agile development, so installing or upgrading a smart contract. uh Again, if you have like two organizations, it can be an easy task, but if you have like certain organizations- and they they want to agree- or they should agree before installing anything or I mean, depending on your endorsement policy- they they shouldn't necessarily just agree, but basically they should try. They should they should actually sign the transaction as well. uh It's not something which is a daily activity.

B

um First, this reason actually integrating stuff with cicd pipelines. They are not easy from from a technical point of view, and hence I would say um it just doesn't necessarily have make sense, basically uh doing such as things so again, uh the major message uh I mean even most of most state-of-the-art orchestration. Technologies were not designed for for Consortium blockchain infrastructure, um just an example.

B

So, for instance, the the idea is that you get like a lot of pots and all of these Sports basically have persistent storage in a way that this storage uh basically is dependent with each other. It's basically, uh you don't have like independent uh pots, storing something, but you have a lot of lot of bots, storing, basically more or less the same same data, uh which is which is even connected with like a lot of cryptography uh as well. uh It's it's not something for that.

B

Basically kubernetes was was designed for and then so, if you, if you know actually a much better orchestration technology which is designed for for blockchain for consolation, blockchain, then yeah, please share it, um but I'm skeptical. If the if they've heard this word is already there.

B

So let me just continue basically with more fabric uh fabric elements and that's basically public and privacy, so in terms of fabric and privacy. um So you got a lot of things that you can use basically, and these things are sometimes yeah. I would say a little bit like contradicting with each other or not not easy to to use all of them.

B

So you get like generous channel is a good idea, but basically you can use private data collections if you want to make data more private, uh but you have to pay attention basically, because uh even if you use like private data collection, you should you should consider using transient field or vital transient field, because uh because with that, you get like a little bit like different uh piece of uh privacy, then then you can have like organization or private data collection, for instance, and you can even have a lot of like design patterns using organizational private data collection in the fabric, documentation and stuff like that, then there's the identity mixer, which is more of the uh more of a zero knowledge proof and and verifiable credential based approach.

B

Unfortunately, it's not really full scared. As far as I know, you can highlight the signing identity of of of a people or of person in One organization, but you can't can't really scale scale this up like for hiding the organizational identity um and even, if that, somehow not really productive, productive ready. So, for instance, the uh the evil King certificates is not implemented as far as I know. For instance, then you can use like trusted execution environments.

B

Of course I mean it needs some some Hardware plugins and, of course you can design like like privacy, conflict, self-develop privacy constructs as well, and of course it's a question is which should be used, which shouldn't be used, I mean if you use everything, uh then then things gonna be more complicated, that's for sure, uh and not just with with installing stuff or with delivering your network, but basically at maintaining and and that operating your network as well.

B

So uh it's just one proposition you perhaps have something which is which is better, but one high level idea is that to try to uh match for the Privacy requirements uh with the existing privacy structures. So I got the I get the basis the stable uh we got. We got data, for instance, data one data, two or information, one information, two against it's very much high level, and then we can have different different strengths of privacy as well.

B

So, for instance, probably the strongest level of privacies is physical privacy. uh The second level is like strong privacy as an example. Encryption uh we might as well have feel like another uh another column. It's like um strong, strong, post-wanting privacy, uh which still perhaps doesn't really exist, or at least not in uh nothing, practical application, but it's coming so we might as well strong privacy and even strong post Quantum uh or in the future strong uh postmodern privacy as well.

B

Then we can have like weak privacy like cell volumes and, for instance, no cryptographic privacy like we. We do something with different policies, for instance, and so what I? What I usually propose is to match somehow the requirements with the possibilities. So we got we got here. The r r is the requirement. So what is what should be required for data one for data to for information, one for information to and so on, and so on and on the possibility of psychological fabric I get like more categories, so you can do something which is f.

B

It costs fabric supports out of the box. So if you need like physical privacy for data one, you can have a different channels. uh You can do it, for instance, uh with fabric out of the blocks. uh You can have something which is with fabric, but fabric doesn't support out of the box, but it needs some custom development. This is like I and then I got r d at the end, which means fabric doesn't support out of the box and it might. It doesn't even need, like development.

B

It might need some some research and development as well. uh Sorry.

B

This is a different category, because if you have like r d in the project again, uh you you can't you, usually you can't do it in in timeline and in budget and what's the proposition is, is just somehow to match, like even with customer the requirements with with with the possibility of uh what what fabric can provide so saying, like hey I mean if you need like for this data tool, you need a strong privacy, uh there's no strong privacy currency in a cryptographic sense uh out of the box in hyper larger fabric.

B

So it means we can do some some some development or some research on development. But it's gonna be like more freaky from a budget and from a timing perspective. So that's one way of thinking it I mean. Usually uh we started sometimes a project in a way that hey. Let me just use all of the Privacy elements from hypo larger fabric, uh but it's not the best idea, because I mean even if these elements are there, it again it if it.

B

If it increases the complexity of your of your application, uh then then you will have problems if the customer is not prepared for that complexity, for instance. So it's usually just a better way just somehow to match the Privacy requirements uh with the possibilities. uh What fabric can provide you?

B

Basically, something similar is the same uh if, if I, if I don't say privacy about like cryptographic guarantee so, for instance, there's like a cryptographic guarantee uh that, like a data, can be changed uh with the help of uh of a transaction and then basically that transaction can be signed by by somebody. So basically, in some sense, there's a cryptographic guarantee that this data is cannot be changed by on on unauthorized person.

B

That's like the basic idea of of fabric, but if you just bring bring in the requirements, perhaps you can't give the same uh cryptographic guarantee uh for like data consistency for all of your data or follow all of your requirements.

B

So it's again it's it's just uh the best ways to like start with kind of a similar table and then and then have an idea, which is the data that that really requires uh like cryptographic guarantee and which is the data which which doesn't, and even if it's, the scriptographic guarantee again, there are many ways of cryptographic grantee, so you can say. Even if that's a digital signature, you can at least distinguish like uh like like classical digital signature or perhaps uh Quantum resistant digital signatures as well.

B

So the next big topic is, is designing for performance and high availability and then yeah, so so I so like here many issues here uh so the for for the first round so so redesigning for performance, um I found it It's Tricky. So basically, your blockchain performance depends a lot of things.

B

um I mean I mean most critical. Is your chain called logic, read, write sets and the level of consistency. uh That's that's very critical. um If you want to read out data from the blockchain, then then Coach DB performance checking um there are.

B

You'll be very much dependent on the orchestration uh or or perhaps multi orchestration. So if you, if you consider deploying your network to multiply organizations, then you might as well you you might not have just one orchestration technology, but perhaps several ones and of course, your performance very much dependent on your network, uh which is again if you, if you have like multiple company, it's not just one network. It's several network connections and this storage, as well, which is again uh might be, might be different in different uh companies.

B

So usually uh what I see basically a practical way of of Designing for performances, more or less. You build your system, uh at least in a prototype phase, but basically with your final chain called logic and with your final infrastructure setup and you make some measurements, uh that's the easiest way, um I'm, not quite sure. If there's any any more practical idea you can have like. There are tools for this like hyperledger caliper, uh but they it can do some some simulation, but it can't really simulate.

B

You know like a multi-organizational, multi-network, multi-storage, multi, orchestration setup, uh uh it's it's not something which I think which which caliper does is here to make some idea how how how the system performance uh are, priority uh can be, can be designed or can be developed, so I mean of course, one way. One way of doing is like developing your system, rolling it out and the measuring performance, but usually that's that's not the best idea. That's that's the best practice. It's it's! It's much better.

B

If you can make some performance assumptions uh in the design phase uh or in the developing phase, and not just after rolling out the system, there might be some some questions with high availability. I mean the question is: what is high availability at all uh here? Basically, you can you can you can something somehow consider like high availability in one organization, uh for instance, then here it's again a question so there's the fabric, High availability, so you can say: hey hi, everybody in Frederick sense, yeah.

B

We get like two PS or three PS3 civilization and that's that's highly available, uh but unfortunately, usually that's not the case, uh because you should consider like high availability in the underlying layer. So so, how does your I don't know? Docker, swarm infrastructure look like or how? How is your your infrastructure below your Dockers form? uh So if you have like um multiply kubernetes clusters, for instance, or if you have one storage below the whole system, or one network for instance, and so on, and so on, so usually just designing new Organization for fabric.

B

It is not enough practically. You should actually uh design the whole infrastructure below to have like really high availability, and there are some tricks. For instance, like you know, I mean even if you have like several appears, like my experience, the discovery, uh if it's like, like this node.js Library as Discovery for the first round, it might drop actually transactions if, like one piece go down, goes down so so yeah. So there are some some fabric Specialties as well.

B

Another thing to consider is like multi-organizational high availability. uh It's again, it's a little bit different uh like from one organizational. uh It's the question. What happens if one organization goes down? uh Is there? Is there like critical organization in the system from a from an availability perspective or not, and it's something which can be like designed with the type of endorsement and orders, so understand, policies and others?

B

Since my it's like more more fabric oriented and, of course, you might as well consider like crash crash fault or buy something Falls I'm, not quite sure, if that makes sense in an endorsement policy but like if you design your ordering service. Of course the easiest is rough, but it's just makes it needs to start crash for it, tolerance and it doesn't give you like, buy something fault, tolerance and there's some factors that can be considered as like data availability uh like reapplication Factor.

B

So if you have like a piece of data, how many times is it replicated in your organization and how many times is it replicated like MLB organizations?

B

So these are some considerations for for high availability and I would say sometimes again just to design system, for that is is tricky and it doesn't only involve like designing your your hyperological fabric, so so the next big topic is something which I say like multi-party Enterprise operations and then so it looks that way. I mean. Let me let we assume that hey, we just installed our our Consortium blockchain network. uh It's running, it looks cool uh everything. Everything works works, fine, but usually.

B

So and the question is how much coordination? How much agreement do you need for for operating this network? I mean, let's just imagine you get like I, don't know, 20 different companies, uh even even organizing a call between these 20 companies is tricky. So it's it's a lot of coordination.

B

Basically, a lot of coordination effort and a lot of agreement is needed uh if, if there should be like a decision are carried out so basically the question is, if there's anything or if there's any best, practice or ideas for something which is a multi-party governance or multi-party, multi-party, Enterprise governance or multi-party Enterprise operation, and then I usually mean like the IIT staffs. So let me just start from the scratch that we just have the idea.

B

We have to change something uh you know, I mean there's like I, don't know, containers on Docker swarm and then the running the running, our our whole network and then something should be configured on the network. So then, then, for instance, the question is what should be configured and uh level of coordination and every disease, for instance, for that for the configuring.

B

The item so I start to use Cycles with like ideal uh words but like if you just say we got one configurable item uh and then this table, for instance, on the right I, just try try to have like an idea that we can have different configurable items and for each such configure. Configurable item. It's it's an interesting question.

B

If changing that item needs like a coordination of the parties or an agreement of the parties, or is it something that can be basically Changed by one company, uh and there are many many things so, for instance, if if I have like a container property, an environment variable which describes my log level, for instance on my on my local local fabric node, then it's something that I can basically change on my own.

B

So I don't need light coordination for them, uh but like if I need to have like I, don't know um if I need to have like, like an Administration. uh Basically, like I would like to change the batch time of my of my application Channel. Then. Basically, it's like a channel property change. It requires basically an organization agreement. At least a majority I mean it depends, of course, on your uh on your enrollment.

B

But basically you need endorsement sorry, uh but you need probably uh an organizational agreement uh on on all of the all of the organizations.

B

They're visiting in this channel, so it's certainly a kind of change which is which is more complicated, and you should prepare for this for this additional complexity. Then, if you need to like like change, uh if you have like fabric 2.2 and you get like system Channel and basically you want to like, like change a parameter in your system channel, uh it requires probably that all organizations must agree. Basically, so that's one sync!

B

um The other thing is how can such a change uh be executed in a multi-party or in an possibly in an automated way, and then I mean, of course, on a low level. Fabric provides some possibilities, but if you just want to somehow automate this whole thing, it's not necessarily gonna be easy.

B

One other thing which is perhaps like a classical thing: it's not so fancy it's cmdb, that's change management database. So, if you like change one piece of anything on your on your full Network, it's it's a good idea to administrate what you changed uh and then it might be surprising because, like in classical kubernetes, for instance, you get like the podlock uh support. Log describes basically pretty much what changed on your on that log.

B

But if you consider like you know, I mean a Consortium setup with hyperledger fabric, then perhaps some of the administration transactions are are basically transactions that are executed somehow, so it's gonna be such such a change, which is which is very, very relevant, so which is actually a very high impact change and it will be executed in a way that it won't be reflected in your in your kubernetes spot, lock for instance.

B

So it's the question is that your cmdb? uh How where do you? Where do you actually are just register, look basic URL changes and then how? How do you do it in a multi-party in a multiple organizational way? So sometimes you know I mean um I changed. Something I mean the whole system. What part of the system got screwed? uh Let me just try to figure out what happened.

B

Perhaps it wasn't only because of my change, uh so it might be a good idea to to consider cmdb or change management database in a multi-organizational way, so similar songs. Things are like multi-party logging. From a tactical point of view, you get very, very good tools for logging like in kubernetes uh or in or in Docker. uh You can have the elastic search and keep on stuff, for instance, but these texts were designed for for individual companies, I would say uh and usually like.

B

If you want to monitor your monitor or lock, basically your whole network, then in most of the cases like for debugging one error, you need to look from several companies and of course you might say, hey, let me just centralize it. Let me just have one server in the middle and then everybody just sends the logs there, but it's usually not it's it's. It's usually not accepted it's because it's usually not accepted.

B

So, if like, if one company sees the the logo of another company uh in the network, uh then even if that log log basically doesn't doesn't contain very private information, even if the fact that, like one company knows that that another company does something at the moment it might leaks, uh actually uh private information which is not accepted so again, multi-party logging, similar for multi-party monitoring or ticketing.

B

So there's yeah there's very good solutions for monitoring your fabric networks, like you can do it like promoters, graphene and stuff like that, but this these tools were designed practically on for individual companies. So so what happens? uh If you need to react uh for different things, so monitor different things, basically, on a on a multi-car company uh perspective, if you need like just handling ticket uh from a multi-company or perspective, you might as well say here. Let me just just centralize the monitoring and ticketing, but okay, it's again, it's it's just usually a novel.

B

Basically, so one last Point. How can fabric support such such operation? I mean there are some some use cases like uh deep technical for for upgrading or installing chain code. You can find some some lap sets there like fabric operator or operations, uh hyper Legend, apps or operation smart contract. So there are some initiatives for that, but I would say so. This is a big topic uh and I think most of the problems here, even if there's some initiatives still partly unresolved foreign.

B

Actually, that's one of my favorite topic, uh which is backup recovery, so I mean and then I'm just gonna cover very much.

B

um I mean what is what is recovery at all in a in a Consortium blockchain network uh on a very high level. So again we can start with classical systems classical systems in classical enterprise system. You get like persistent data storages. These are. These are backed up and restored. That's like like recovery.

B

So what is backup recovery in a public blockchain? So in a public blockchain you usually don't have a backup recovery. um There's a big network. uh We assume that the whole network won't go down, so we assume that uh all the 8000 ethereum nodes will not go down. uh If your node goes down what you can do, basically, you can bring up your note and you can re-synchronize resynchronize with the network.

B

uh You can even do something which is a snapshot, but usually snapshot means uh that you don't synchronize your note from scratch, but from basically from something which is which is which is halfly synchronized. So that's like public blockchain, it's not really something which is the same as as in a classical Enterprise, backup recovery.

B

So what's the situation with Consortium blockchain, however, I mean it's a good.

D

B

Yeah sorry uh shall I have just a just a brief. You still hear.

D

Me yeah: we can hear you from Consortium blockchain. We lost.

B

You, okay, okay, ah sorry, it's again it's my network! It's my network is not highly available. So uh so the question is: what is what is backup recovery in in the Consortium blockchain scenario? And then you might as well say. Hate is something similar to a public blockchain. We get one channel, 20 companies and then basically we assume not all companies gonna go down. The data will be somewhere end of story. uh We assume it's similar to a public blockchain, but we can say: hey.

B

We got just two companies in a channel, so basically it might happen that both companies will be somehow corrupted. So we should back up our system somehow uh and then things are more complicated with hyperledger fabric, because you can have like things that you get one Canal like with five companies, but you get a private data collection and the data in private collection is shared just by two companies and then the question is I mean, which is which is backup recovery. What you? What? What should we considered I mean one way of starting.

B

This stuff is like a little bit like considering again. I will not have like answers, but one idea might be is just to access a basically.

B

Each relevant piece of data, uh kind of a replication factor and the replication Factor might be I mean you can even replicate data in one organization. So if you have like three peers or four peers in one organization, that means basically that your data is replicated four times in your organization uh and then you can consider something as as data replication across organizations.

B

So if you get like one channel with three companies, then practically uh your data is three times replicated in terms of organizational application and then you might as well consider if you need like kind of a classical backup of your whole system, or you might assume that yes, so the data is like I, don't know two times replicated in an organization and three times replicating across organization, then we assume that it not not every everything will will go down.

B

Basically, uh so it's a question a little bit uh like data application factor and then again the problem. Is you get like fabric data structures? So if you have like just generous, the situation should be easier, but you get something as well as private data collection and then, even if you are in a channel, then you get much less replication factor with a private data collection in terms of organization or application, and you can have something as well, which is organizational private data collection.

B

Actually, it is used anyway, uh when you install like chain code, for instance, and if you have like organizational private data collection, it is replicated only in your company.

B

uh So it's a question if you have to somehow uh backup make a bigger backup and restore stuffs, and things are more complicated because these things are not independent from each other, but they are connected with, like I mean practically cryptography if you're unlucky and if you have like a fabric 2.2, you have even a system Channel, which makes which makes more, which, which makes things more complicated and again so what's important.

B

These are not necessarily like independent things, but these are usually kind of uh dependent with different like hashes and then again it's it's cryptography. That's basically a whole distributed. Authenticated data structure. Authenticated data structure means that individual data or pieces of information of your data structure uh are connected with cryptography practically so again, that's backup recovery uh I got one more slide. Basically, this is like you know, I just discovered very fast.

B

It's like maintaining your cryptographic, material and sorry, if I say cryptographic, material I, don't just mean the crypto config, uh but you should consider basically that there are a lot of people.

B

But perhaps in the long run like xerological stock might be coming actually, in the future, I mean you already have like zeroch proof and verifiable credential in fabric, if you use like identity mixer, uh but but as this whole field is being developed further, you might as well have like much more such structure. Such cryptographic structures in your in your blockchain network and the problem is that I mean one thing to install these tasks.

B

I mean even installing these stuffs is not necessarily simple, but it's more it's more complicated than and more challenging, and this this complexity is usually underestimated. Very much underestimated. Maintaining this cryptographic uh so so, depending on I, mean every piece of of cryptographic, material that some that you somehow install must be maintained actually uh like in perhaps not not daily or weekly, but at least in in year the operation.

B

So, for instance, if you get like just the simplest that, like x509 certificates, which exist at the moment uh with fabric uh there's a life cycle for that just create and roll, the suspend is not supported at the moment and revoke, and this life cycle should be supported actually for for the different uh x509 certificates, which are I mean, which are differently created, usually I mean the basic idea is, is the stimulus, but usually the you create them a different way. So you have to a little different way and then you get like signing.

B

Sets uh admin sets uh user cells. These are usually esets. If things are getting more complicated, uh you get you get your own CS. uh You get fabric CS in the system, so you can have root CS. You can have more CS in the system, so you can have like sub CS. uh If things are even more complicated, you don't have even like fabric CS, but something similar.

B

So even practically with like the the easiest stuff, which is, which is the more most classical you know, I mean cryptographic material, that's that's like uh x509. Certificate of things are different, so I'm not quite sure. If there's like two, uh for you know, I mean really for for monitoring your certificates in Fabric and to like rolling your certificates just by clicking something. uh If, if anybody knows such a tool, I'm very happy to please share it because I think I mean I mean the whole Community gonna love it.

B

So it's again um we are somewhere here. If we do like application development like with maintaining operating application and the infrastructure, that's the classical device and we can have something which is which is more like designing a cryptographic protocol. It's basically maintaining this cryptographic protocol, uh which is which is just as operational as maintaining task. It can be very it can be challenging and it is, it is usually very much underestimated.

B

So that was basically uh the points that I listed uh for for fabric challenges or construction blockchain challenges, and then the question is just my book: if you want I'm, not quite sure, uh but if you share my opinion, Community contribution or further Community idea. uh Okay, so if you say hey what I listed here, you know an answer and these topics are not important.

B

Please share with me, I'm gonna be very happy, so I mean uh seriously, uh but if you find that these topics might be challenging for you as well or or if you, if you saw like applications where these points are challenging, then I would propose to start kind of a community contribution on that and my proposition would be to design something similar as ITIL. That's Information, Technology, infrastructure, library and I mean the original idea of ITIL.

B

The original idea was just to summarize, you know, problems, solutions, best practices and tools for Opera operating, basically an Enterprise software in your company. That was the original idea like with service operation, service, design and service transition. uh I mean in the recently it has became like a philosophy. So it's more philosophical but I would I mean I would just have the original idea of ITI just just from the original practical side, so I would start actually summarizing something similar uh systematically collecting and analyzing, uh and basically only for Consortium blockchains.

B

uh We can start hyper Legend fabric as well uh possible solutions, possible problems uh with Consortium, blockchain and hyperledger fabric possible solutions for that best practices. Something in somewhere has some experience with that and it worked some things which are anti-patter, so rather don't do it stuffs and of course two is we get a lot of tools basically, but these tools usually focus on one or two pain points of this whole Consortium operation. So it would perhaps be a good idea just to summarize tools as well in terms of phase tool.

B

I, don't know stores, basically the certificate renewal process in hypoledger fabric, but won't do anything with like uh with like multi-party coordination of of of different companies and so on, and so and again. So the idea would be just to design just this one for construction blockchains and then then reaching somehow the major life cycle items so at like designing planning rolling code installing mainly maintaining and operating uh Consortium, blockchain networks and basically hyper natural fabric.

B

um You can find basically a document here as well. This is like uh an extended version of my presentation, a little bit like like summarized in text as well, so I can lightly share it and then, basically that was my presentation. I just a little bit underestimated the time that was needed, but then I would say, I would stop my monologue and then uh again uh we can. We can start like discussing and then, if you, if you have like like any any experience uh sharing on any of these topic topics, then just uh please.

E

Hi this is Alex I just wanted to maybe bring two topics that may be good fit at the beginning. On your list that you had for a problem statements, um one would be related to The Balancing of data between what's on the blockchain in fabric versus um versus off chain, because from our experience very very few customers actually build uh uis or applications on top of, for example, couchdb or didn't even talk about level DB I.

E

Think for that, so most people actually have to sync the data from from The Ledger to some off chain right. The relation database, typically or or you know for that matter, nosql or whatever it might be. But then the question comes: how do we ensure that we don't have gaps in data between what's in The, Ledger versus what's off chain and from our experiences we've seen very little about that in terms of best practices and how how to do that type of data, verification.

B

That's a very good point: uh that's a very good point, uh so so one main point uh that I that I saw as well. If you, if you store like off-chain data and off-chain data, not in terms of like, like us, in private data collection but like in a total different database, then the question is: uh if so, so, basically the point is: uh if you store data totally of chain, um you expect indirectly the same guarantee that blockchain does so you would expect that.

B

Basically, this data is consistent with the blockchain data, uh which is not necessarily true, uh because if you like write into like two storages.

B

But it doesn't give you guarantee with some other data source. So the question is written existing storage solution and if so, uh yeah that's a problem. That's that's not an easy problem anyway. So that's that's one aspect that I saw the second one are uh in blockchain. It is I mean in high collateral fabric. It is guaranteed that the the axis of your data is basically uh driven by by digital signatures.

B

So if you don't have the keys, you can't find I mean there might be some exceptions, but generally, if you don't have the keys and you can't find transactions, uh you can't change the data and as soon as you bring data outside of hyperledger fabric, you will lose this guarantee.

B

uh So it is a question if that's a problem from a custom perspective or not, but certainly it's it's something which is you know, I mean it is overseen, uh so we just say hey: we can store data in the blockchain, let's just bring outside of the blockchain sure, but then we don't have. We don't have the same guarantees. We don't have the same cryptographic grantees, but blockchain does in terms of of accessing data. In in in terms of digital signature, and perhaps not even not even like, like consistency, yeah absolutely.

E

Yeah but then the second one, what we've seen questions coming up often is: uh okay, you have these blocks on the chain, um but what actually goes in a block right I mean we see actually transactions happening, uh you know going into, let's say possibly, multiple transactions going to block, but what's actually the business records that make up those blocks.

E

So we really don't see much in terms of tooling and even like with the old Explorer. It would be really nice if, over time there is a facility through which okay I look at it. Explorer I see the block numbers, but when I click on a block number, for example, I can actually see you know those I, don't know those Json messages or whatever got stored right into let's into the world. State and I can see what made up.

E

You know that that block, because I think to me that visibility is really not not there yet, and it's just you know a little bit of a black box.

E

um Just in terms and I think ties a little bit back to with the balancing question, but any case that was the second one.

B

Yeah I mean I, mean I, totally agree, uh I I face face. Actually the situation in like like select Explorer is is more like I would say something for for developers, sometimes or or professionals. So like like, like having having hypology I, mean I mean there are two problems with explorers. One problem is that uh it's end offline and applied.

B

It's not even further uh crazy, some some serious problems. uh If you, if you need like the latest, you know I mean Docker image and so on, uh but otherwise it's it's not something which is for end users, I would say so so perhaps even a user saw on on users with not so much.

B

You know, I mean IIT professional background would like to see something from the network and then and then perhaps a high political Explorer is, is not the not the not the best tool for this yeah I mean I mean that's that's my experience uh with Explorer Daniel.

A

I I mean I have actually some news: I can share about Explorer, so it was end of life as a project, but it has recently been restarted as a lab. I just dropped a link to it on the zoom chat. There have been at least five or six, if not more organizations that showed up after it was end of life and said, hey I was using it and I'd still be interested in developing it, so that includes Walmart and some other organizations.

A

So if there's interest they're getting together actually, tomorrow and I dropped a link to that as well to talk about what the road map is, and so, if there's interest from people and restarting exploring kind of taking it, maybe in a New Direction just be aware that that's something that there are a number of community members currently looking into.

F

Thanks, that's interesting.

A

And that's an open call tomorrow, uh your the details are on that link ever anybody's welcome to join.

B

Yeah Tom thanks thanks for that that update I mean it's very helpful for me. uh Absolutely uh so again, I mean if you have like, like any ideas or any experience uh in terms of uh blockchain Consortium blockchain um challenges uh just just feel free to share.

B

If, if you have like you know, I mean if you, if you have like experience or tools for for solving any of my problems, that I'm that I'm listed I'm I'm very happy to hear that uh so so no problem uh just just feel free to unmute yourself and share um otherwise I I just try to uh read the chat as well. So so you can. You can share in the chat as well. If you, if you like,.

F

um Hi, my name is Zachary Jones um I'll share something briefly here. um It was mentioned about uh referencing things that were off chain uh data whatnot, it's kind of in the Explorer concept. um We had built a solution that involved a lot of different types of off-chain data.

F

We were synchronizing things related to private equity and we had many different types of companies that were a part of the process and not all of them were necessarily represented on chain as entities, but we still had to have record of the data that occurred in those systems. We just developed a signing method for the data that was in those external systems.

F

It was a mixture of the URL and a kind of unique reference, including the daytime that something had changed in the external system, almost like a git commit hash, and we had developed that for some of these systems and then would commit that to the chain and along with the URL that was actually linking to those external systems, it made it easier to be certain whether or not uh particular transaction on the Chain related to a particular state in the external system, because they've kind of warranted, the exact you know date time stamp of the data that was there.

F

So that's just one strategy. You know other people are getting down the kind of direction if they have a lot of data off-chain the rest of what we did was utilizing private data and we actually used some of the on-chain with the hyperledger native versions of private data, but then as well, we had some data that we had to store in a different type of database that was coordinated between parties and we developed our own method that was kind of a duplication of the process for storing private data.

F

But we again, you know, signed data that was stored in that other database and then committed that signature to a transaction as part of a block so that there was confirmation of uh whether or not that data was changing. um You know outside of the scope of the hyper-ledger network,.

B

uh That sounds good. uh Just just let me have just one tricky question: uh were there were there any problems with like I mean? Did you consider like backup and restore uh between like two between fabric data and and and and of chain data, or it wasn't a problem because you just practically used for for reading all data from from the blockchain.

F

We had a little bit of a pass on that complexity because there was one primarily it's one primary um node or you know, entity in the network. um That was us that was coordinating most of the other activity for the other entities.

F

um So uh entities were only pushing data back into the chain um through us, maybe not centrally, since I mean they were, um entities had to have a sign off whenever they pushed certain kinds of data that would fall under the scope of what we would have needed to have backed up, and so since we were kind of the, maybe not the moderator, but just under the um the facilitator of all of these parties interacting um it made it a bit easier for us to um be a you know, a global lock, so to speak against a backup process um that would you know, Force synchronization to other entities as well.

B

um Thanks awesome that that sounds great uh yeah, so.

B

Topics like relevant, uh that would be somehow my idea is that, let me just summarize I know perhaps by by hyperledger, there's some either in a documentation or or basically uh perhaps a hyperledger lab. Although that's not code, it's it's just you know, I mean ideas. Summarized ideas again, are kind of different problems, possible solutions, best practices to do not to do, and, of course to us I mean I mean it's.

B

It would be very interesting, I mean as far as I know, you already have like a tool list, it's just or a list of tools for hyper larger fabric. It it just just. Sometimes it is not clear which which tool solves, which problem.

B

But anyway again uh so if you have like, like ideas, suggestions or or perhaps uh uh basically experience to share uh just just feel free to unmute yourself and and then just.

C

B

B

So, like one one point that was Raising in the chat like uh sorry uh just just.

B

Yeah, just just go ahead, if you, if you started to say something and sorry if I, if I just interrupted you.

B

Yeah, if nobody shares it, it's okay, like like one one, one one one actually question is like, uh which is the orchestration technology that you that you propose like for for running hyper, larger fabric. It's again I mean it is kubernetes or different, kubernetes version, uh which is mostly used uh or basically, which that's technology that the Enterprises start start to use.

B

I would say, uh but again my experience that it's it's not really for for consoles you not to be optimized for Consortium blockchain I mean I mean even if even if you got like, like you know, I mean even if you're fairly came from structure is, is based on container.

B

The the logic behind behind kubernetes is not exactly the same as the as the logic uh behind behind the idle blockchain Network. So if you you happen to know- or if you happen to, if you can suggest like like other orchestration technology, uh which is which is like more optimal for for hyper lateral fabric, uh just feel free to share.

D

D

Hi there hi can you just print uh space. This last link on the slide in the chat.

D

Consortium blockchain networks that run.

B

D

B

Yes, absolutely uh anyway, uh I mean this whole section is recorded and then, uh after the call, perhaps tomorrow not today, but but we're gonna we're gonna share the slides as well. uh So basically you will. You will get everything.

D

Thank you. Thank you.

B

It's again, this is just a document. It's like a little bit like more detailed uh summary, uh basically of my presentation. So it's still not really. You know the structure that I proposed here, uh but yeah I mean perhaps we can get it. We can get something similar as well.

D

Sure, thank you.

B

So there's one question is: if, if there's a preferred Cloud platform to host hyperledger uh I, don't know, perhaps somebody.

E

Probably the platform matters more than the tooling that you have around it right. I, don't know if the question is about SAS solutions for hyperledger or just Cloud providers, but from our experience it doesn't matter if it's Azure or if it's gcp or AWS.

B

Yeah, there's there's one one interesting aspect.

B

A

Oh looks like we may have lost Daniel again for a second but he'll be back.

B

Sorry I was just reconnected, so yeah. So the idea is somehow that that, if you have multiply Enterprise, they will use like like different orchestration uh technology, um perhaps even different container Technologies and then and then perhaps even different organization Technologies uh and that's that's again, a a pretty big complexity that that might come actually in the project.

B

B

um So I don't know, is there? Is there like any more points, uh experience uh that you want to share? uh Basically, uh in this call.

B

Because I would say, if there's, if there's no more points, then then I will just close this call again, so the so the idea, the idea is somehow that we're gonna have like subsequent such meetups I think uh there are like two pieces in the in the pipeline uh scheduled somehow for next year, uh where, where not so much on a high level positioning but I mean really on on different tools and and different solutions, more different solutions for different problems and different tool supports.

B

So perhaps um they can give like more more answers and more details. uh So it's like one.

B

On one thing that will be surely presented that, like that, like that's like fabric operator and fabric operator, reveals, saw some of the some of the issues, uh some of the operational issues I think not over, but perhaps some will be stopped by by fabric operator uh and there's gonna be like like a Meetup and presentation on that uh practically next year.

B

uh One last question here that uh so hypology rnd5, uh so so basically I apologize I mean it's. The question. Hyperlegelistic is the umbrella uh from Linux Foundation. But if that's a question, if High pleasure Fabric and defy um there's not much D5 application on hyper larger fabric, it's not much crypto, it's more like a Consortium Ledger, uh but for instance, in the hyperledger project you find like hyperledger bezel is an ethereum node uh and then it can participate in public networks as well and so that practically you can run the file application on that.

B

If you want uh it's again, it's the question: if that's like high Collision, Fabric or or bazoo, if you take Basu, then then it's solidity based can participate even in public networks. So there's some some correlation or combination of of hyperledger, bezel and D5 application. If, if that's, if that's the question fabric is still not much there, I'm not quite sure if, if like running D5 application in a console, assume Network makes sense at all, but like tokenization makes sense for sure, and then there are some some tokenization initiatives uh from hyper larger fabric.

B

You can find in in fabric samples like the three major types of tokens uh like fungible, non-fungible and Hebrew tokens kind of erc20, 721 and 1155 style tokens, foreign.

B

So I would say uh our time is, is slowly running up, um so that was basically my presentation and uh thank you very much for the participation and thank you very much for the for the discussion at the end and then basically yeah I mean just uh let me let me see somehow you know I mean. Let me see some some more points in details. uh Next year, foreign.

A

That's great, thank you, Daniel and if you want to send I see that some people asked about slides, if you want to send me, the slides I can send it out to everybody who registered.

B

uh I recently, I will send it after the court. Great thanks.

A

And thanks everyone.

E

Thank you, everyone all right. Thank you.