Hyperledger Foundation Onboarding Task Force, 27 Sep 2023

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From YouTube: 2023 90 25 Onboarding and Documentation Task Forces

Description

Onboarding and Documentation Task Forces
Wiki page: https://wiki.hyperledger.org/display/TSC/Documentation+Task+Force

A

Good morning, hi nico hi, everyone, hey bobby. How are you good good.

A

I don't know if you've been introduced to nico, but aruna is the mentee.

A

um For the documentation, task, force and nico is the pioneer behind firefly becoming a project.

A

A graduated project by the way- congratulations that was wonderful. That was a good toc meeting.

B

Thanks yeah, that was exciting two two projects in one meeting yeah and I I tried to get screenshots.

A

To show, because again we're trying to figure out how to document stuff to show the difference in.

A

um That's something I didn't write a question down for sure. The difference in.

A

You know the the approaches. What did you think about the two different approaches which one did.

A

You think was more uh well, I probably biased toward the approach that I took yeah, um but.

B

um Yeah, I think the and I I talked with tracy a little bit beforehand, just in terms of.

B

um Kind of what would I I wanted to make good use of people's time and sort of trying to find.

B

The balance between, like there were some new toc members who weren't there when firefly became a.

B

Project and some toc members that just hadn't kept up with the project and so like I needed to catch.

B

Everybody up to speed, but I didn't want to spend a whole bunch of time, rehashing stuff that people.

B

Already knew so, I was just really trying to strike that balance in the material that we went through.

A

Yeah no, no. I thought the presentation was great. I think, though again, which is why the whole task.

A

Force is here um that you should have had an easier checkpoint checklist. You know like okay,.

A

We're moving to graduated open this checklist and say: oh, do I have these things and then you know.

A

And then just present the checklist to the toc, you know and you can you know, dive deeper in then, but.

A

I I think there needs to be some guidance yeah, which is that overall, that's the approach that.

B

I took um the uh so I basically started with it. There is a document which is the incubation exit.

B

Criteria- and I I just took that document and I went line by line and wrote out in the proposal.

B

That we, we briefly scrolled through how firefly meets their criteria or how we think it does.

B

um The I guess the the one really challenging part is there are a few requirements in there.

B

That are somewhat subjective and uh that's that's like there's not a necessarily.

B

um It's not something you can empirically measure and and say yes, yeah like oh, you must have a.

A

Robust community well, thank you right yeah, and it's like okay, it's not just a discrete yes or.

B

No, it's you know, there's some sort of spectrum that we're on here: yeah, okay, okay, so could.

A

Y'all join us too she's, also uh an integral part of this uh task force. uh So I know that.

A

Everybody's busy, so I have, um I hope everybody can see the screen. I have up with the questions.

A

Yes, no yep. I can see it okay good, um so I'm just gonna go through the questions.

A

And I'm just gonna take really quick notes um as to some of your answers to um every.

A

um The topics that we're kind of trying to see now, I think the task force to be perfectly honest,.

A

We're kind of like at a crossroads: now um we have a job of presenting our recommendations, but it's.

A

Hard to present recommendations with that actually following through and doing them, especially with.

A

These ai tools, but that's so labor intense and it's not really what we're here for, but it's.

A

Hard to show it if you don't go through it, so it's we're like have a bang in our heads at this point.

A

So this would be very helpful. So congratulations, let's start again, so congratulations very much.

A

On the um oh first anti-trust policy and uh code of conduct on the screen, everybody just.

A

Take note of that everybody's been in these meetings before I'm pretty familiar with that.

A

um Yeah, so congratulations. um I one of my biggest thrills in hyperledger on the tsc. I'm not sure. If.

A

I'm going to be up again for or if I'm going to run again for for the toc at this point. But.

A

Watching you guys from incubation for my, I think three year tenure from incubation to graduation.

A

Was probably the best um looking back thing that happened for me, because it was a whole.

A

100 perspective on the whole project cycle, so that, for me, was great. So what are your.

A

Thoughts on the project lab to graduated uh journey, for you like what was your best worst.

A

Yeah so um sorry, I wasn't sure there was one of the questions. Sorry, um no, I I think I I.

B

Mean to to be to be totally transparent, we had a rough start and I think um I I will say there have.

B

Been a lot of improvements since then, and it is sort of as like um you know, you look at any place.

B

That has rules, and, and sometimes you look at a list of rules and you're like what. Why is that.

B

A rule that's weird, and it's usually because somebody uh at some point uh that rule was a.

B

Problem and so they had to write the rule down so that it wasn't a problem uh I feel like in.

B

Some cases uh our project was was sort of that, uh uh like there weren't clearly defined, um not not.

B

That we were breaking the rules uh to to clarify, but like some of the the the hard criteria for.

B

um What is a lab, what is a incubating project and what does it take to move to a graduating project?.

B

Wasn't written down clearly when we were first presented firefly and proposed that it become a.

B

Project and we, you know what, from our standpoint the software itself and the idea behind it, was.

B

Mature enough to be a project of some sort, a probably an incubating project, they didn't.

B

Have the community around it, it didn't have a diversity of maintainership, so there were.

B

Definitely some things that were missing from the um the kind of the the maturity that it's at now.

B

um But it is, I I think there was. There was some uh some debate amongst the toc about where the.

B

Project should land when it when it first came to hyperledger, because it was, it was a. It was.

B

A working project, it wasn't um like some some things that started in labs are like we're. Gonna.

B

Try something and we we don't know whether it will work or not and they're really experimental and.

B

Those are cool and I think there needs to be a place for those um anyway. So I'm sorry for.

B

The ramble here, but um I I'll just say like there was um there- was a lot of drama in some.

B

Of those first toc meetings that um it's you know is that that definitely left a a bit of a.

B

um uh Like it wasn't a super great impression, just in some of the the political shenanigans.

B

That went on um in people like we came to a toc meeting and we're asking to vote to make firefly.

B

A an incubating project and then somebody raised a motion to not vote to do it, and it was just like.

B

It was just super confusing and there was a lot of drama, um but I'll say I like. I think a lot has.

B

Changed in in all of those regards in the last two years, so I'm really happy to see that change. The.

B

um There was, there was no drama in the the last toc meeting, which I was I was pleased with. um I.

B

Was not sure what to expect after last time, but uh the I think the the requirements are more clear. I.

B

Still think there's a few areas where they could be um like we were talking about earlier. Maybe a.

B

Little less subjective a little easier to measure and a little easier for everyone to just agree.

B

um Yeah, objectively, whether uh something meets or does not meet the criteria.

A

Yeah, I agree from the beginning, I think, um when we had just the large blockchain or dlt.

A

Projects coming into the toc, they happened more um organically um and and then like the foundation.

A

Three years ago, kind of got a little bit more regimented and decided to do things more with.

A

Guidelines- and I think firefly was the first project that hit when we were saying. Yes, we.

A

Need guidelines: here's what we have right now. Does it work and the answer was definitively no.

A

We need more guidelines. We need to help these people because that first meeting was nobody like.

A

Everybody kind of knew what you were asking and everybody kind of knew what what the toc needed.

A

But the communication on how to how to make that I mean we weren't really asking for anything like.

A

You said you didn't know you needed, it just was the way we were asking for. It was just not clear.

A

um And again, I I couldn't be happier that that you worked through it and stuck with.

A

It because it's a great great project and again so the other, I think the other dlts.

A

Happened more organically and as firefly and cactus started coming in, they weren't just.

A

100 dlts or blockchains, they were different, and I think that that difference was something that.

A

You know we needed as a toc to adjust our rules to accommodate um and I hopefully we.

A

Did that but let's move on um so that's good, that's nice to know um and I'm glad things you.

A

Think are clear and that's what we're trying to do in the task force is make things even easier.

A

um By not only doing user guides for the community, but user guides for the for the.

A

um Maintainers as well, I mean that's, you know the community really can't use the product if.

A

They can't understand it so, okay, so from a documentation perspective. um Just do this.

A

No, I didn't want to do I'll deal with that later, so, from a documentation perspective.

A

Were there clear guidelines so there's two points to this: I guess clear guidelines for what you.

A

Needed for the community for documentation not moving through the life cycle, yet that's the.

A

Next question, but like so so I have this project in lab. Oh, I need to supply documentation for the.

A

Maintainers, I need to supply documentation for potential coders and documentation for.

A

Potential users- oh here's templates like- was that easy for you or was that a difficult process.

B

um I you know in terms of supplying documentation for the community, I I'd say it was easy.

B

um I I don't really, I don't think we really leaned on.

B

Any particular list of things that we needed, I think we sort of, took the approach of like all.

B

Of us maintainers have used open source software and we know what good documentation looks like it.

B

It looks like a project that I can just go: look at github and figure out exactly what I need and so.

B

You know that was sort of the that was sort of the approach that we took is just you know. We need to.

B

um We need to make this project as approachable as possible and make it easy for people to get.

B

Started on their own- and you know be my my goal from the beginning was- and this.

B

Is a lot of the thinking around the firefly cli and how it works is like I, I want to be able to.

B

I want anyone who's familiar with software development, to be able to run firefly and all.

B

Of its dependencies and and have a fully working technology stack with uh running like a maximum.

B

Of three commands, and, uh and so that that was that was sort of the goal of the that tool and.

B

Then there are lots of guides in the docs on how to use the tool in various configurations uh to to.

B

Customize that, if you know, if you want to run it with fabric or if you want to run it with basu or.

B

um You know just all the different combinations of things you can do there.

A

um Just to follow up before we move on to the next one, um but did from a hyperledger foundation.

A

Community, like when you were in incubation or moving to graduated, was there any guidelines for.

A

You to say okay, so now I need this for maintainers and for code contributors, but user guides for the.

A

External community, maybe I need a youtube or a how to you know, get started using this.

A

um Were there any guidelines for that, or do you think there needed to be guidelines for that, and in your opinion, what would they look like.

B

um Yeah good question: I I'm not aware of any guidelines for that. um I don't feel like we.

B

Necessarily needed any and we've just always sort of done. What we felt was best for the community.

B

um You're, having all of that documentation there as early as we could get to it in the.

B

Project was a priority for us. um Having pages that describe you know if someone wants to get.

B

Involved, uh you know what are the like. um You know there are some like, for instance, um doing.

B

Sign off on your commits, uh hyperledger and the linux foundation require that, and so we have a.

B

Page that documents that, like you, need to do this, if you're gonna commit [music] um and just yeah, I.

B

I guess we just always sort of followed the the principle of like. What's what's the best thing.

B

For the community and to help the community grow, um I haven't necessarily felt a need for like a.

B

A list of like hey you, you should document these sorts of things or have these sorts of pages.

B

um We just always sort of taking the approach of like if people um are, I, I guess, another rule.

B

Of thumb for us is like if people are coming to our discord channel and asking the same question.

B

Repeatedly, we probably need a docs page for it, and uh so so we'll write a docs page for it and then.

B

Start pointing people to that and then hopefully the the number of times we get that question.

B

Decreases it doesn't always help. Sometimes people still ask the question and I'm like hey. uh You.

B

Should read this page and they're like great thanks? Well, we have a question at the end about.

A

Ai and and remind me about that, because I want to ask you in context of ai for that, but yeah.

B

I have opinions on ai what I have opinions on ai, oh good. I can't wait to get there. Okay, so that's.

A

Interesting, so you just think your documentation is better just evolving organically, as as it needs.

A

I mean we think it's better. um I I'm not sure I would say that I'm not sure what we're comparing.

B

It to better than what, um but I think, um having like got like check, you need a user guide that.

A

Hits this you need a uh a committer's guide that that shows them how to sign off on the commits.

A

I mean you know for someone like me like with the giving chain, I just needed a blockchain and I.

A

Saw how easy from your wiki page um it looked to get started. So that's what attracted me so.

A

I'm an end user and you got you know you did a great job on attracting me over. So.

B

Yeah thanks yeah, so the next one is is the best practices badging perspective and that's more.

A

As a maintainer, did you know exactly what needed to be um in each one of moving through those life.

A

Cycles, like you said, was it very clear what needed to be in your github repository for incubation.

A

uh Moving into graduate or lab incubation graduated were those three steps clearly.

A

um Spelled out for you, so you knew or again was it just something you were doing.

A

um Because what you felt you needed yeah, I think um they were not necessarily clear.

B

At the very beginning, um by the time we made it to an incubating project.

B

uh Moving to a graduated project was pretty clear at that point. What it was that we needed.

B

um And it was not something that more that we needed in our github repo. It was that we.

B

Needed uh more diverse maintainers, so I I think throughout the process those things became clear.

A

Okay, um would it bother, would it bothered you if there was just like a checklist like a google doc.

A

That you, before you started, like eight points that you had to have or eight things you needed to do.

A

um And then you just go make sure you had that. Would that have been helpful yeah that would.

B

Have been great, I'm leading the witness if I was important, I think one other um so so the like in.

B

Terms of what would have been helpful um one thing that was, I guess, there's a couple pieces.

B

Of feedback back on things that I would have found helpful as we moved from incubation to graduation.

B

um So we touched on briefly, like some of the requirements are a little bit subjective.

B

um It would be nice if I, I think, there's maybe some wording changes that.

B

I I think the requirements say committers when they should say maintainers, but that's a I.

B

um There's a there's, a big difference uh in those things we need to get into all that right now,.

B

The there was some confusion about like how to actually.

B

Get the toc to discuss it like how do I put it on the agenda? How do I um like? How do I make.

B

The proposal, um and so like I found out by just talking to people and uh fortunately like uh david.

B

Boswell and and hart montgomery said, like hey, it's a pr to the the hyperledger hip repo. I was.

B

Like okay great, but I think there was confusion amongst the toc about that too. Some people were.

A

Saying, oh, you just said that yeah um I thought you just booked tracy and said. Get me on the agenda.

B

Yeah, so so to get it on the so from what I understand now to get it on the agenda.

B

Is you open an issue to the toc um github repo and to make a proposal? It's a it's, a pr to the.

B

Hyperledger hip repo, and so what I did is I created the issue. Is that hey, please, put.

B

This on the agenda and I'm going to link to my proposal that I would like you to vote on.

B

um And then just in terms of like okay, what what does the toc expect to see in the in the meeting.

B

um I I just sat down and talked about it with tracy, but, um having um I don't know having some.

B

Sort of like hey here's, the like here's, how the process works. um You know open open a pr here.

B

This is what the toc is going to expect to see presented to them. That sort of thing and- and you.

B

You kind of saw on the call like the like rama and I both took pretty different approaches to.

B

Like how we presented the material- um and I think that was because we were both trying to figure it.

B

Out, as we went, I think both worked, but uh if the toc wants it to be more of a um kind of a.

B

Consistent uh approach, maybe documenting the the process of it a little bit beyond.

B

Just like the hard requirements, but just like here: okay, here's yeah, here's.

B

What you need to do, but here's how you need to go about doing it too, mm-hmm.

A

So again, this is something that I had always thought um you and I have talked about your.

A

What we've done and we're going to get into that in just a few seconds about your github repository.

A

And making that into into user guides. But what do you think separate from maintainers because, like.

A

Again, I think, there's three different, distinct uh personas in the community that all need to.

A

Be reached differently um from when they on board, um and one of them is contributors and the other.

A

Is end users, so do you think that the maintainers documentation is sufficient for committers? Do you.

A

Think that they, that, again, um how would you see attacking those three users like they're they're.

A

um Contributors and end users, um what do you think they require.

A

I know end users, don't need github repositories because they don't know how to use them. So look.

A

What would you think if you could click off like one or two things that these people require to.

A

Make them more efficient in the community? What would it be yeah? So we have. I would say that the.

B

Majority of the docs is either applicable to all user personas or targeted um like if you just if.

B

You just come to the docs page. There's big bright flashing signs. It's like get getting started; click.

B

Here um and those are sort of the uh I'm new I I just want to try the thing out. I don't know where.

B

To go okay, there's a big getting started button. Now. Let me just click this and see where this goes.

B

And that that walks them through how to be a user and that's sort of where they start their journey.

B

um And then there's there are lots of tutorials that then go from there, like as a user or as.

B

You know somebody building an app with firefly how to explore all the different features of it.

B

um We have a separate section, that is for contributors and um that's that's a little.

B

Bit like it's in the left, nav it's not hard to find, but you do have to go. Look for it if you.

B

If you are interested in contributing it's not hard to find, but it's not necessarily.

B

Something that we throw at everybody that comes to the docs page, because they're, not everybody's.

B

Probably looking for that, and that's where we talk about like um like what you need to have.

B

On your computer, to compile it, um how to make sure you you commit with sign off um just like making.

B

Sure that you follow the standard, github pull request flow, that sort of thing um a subsection.

B

In there is for maintainers, because we we sort of view the the maintainers are a a subset of.

B

Contributors that also have they have been voted to uh to be a representative of the project. They.

B

Have right access to some or all of the the repos themselves and they have the ability to.

B

Make changes do releases and that sort of thing so uh so there's some separate there's a subsection.

B

In the in the main, in the contributors docs for maintainers uh to document like here's, how we.

B

Here's how you do a release on a repo you know, go here, click this uh fill out. This information uh do.

B

This sort of thing run these tests, etc, etc. Awesome that's interesting, um okay, so, uh okay, now here's.

A

The big the big question- jen luca, couldn't be here today, um unfortunately, but he is.

A

Working with me and working with us on this part of um the tech guides, so again I I'm gonna just.

A

Scroll down here, just real quickly, to give you a preface of what our task force is, is up against.

A

Where'd it go. I know it's here, okay, so here we go.

A

um This is a list of all of the projects in the community and all of the different types.

A

Of documentation that they're, using how they're building it and as you see it's all different.

A

All confused all.

A

Did this last year, I'm not sure if the new versions were still.

A

um Done with just the docs uh with jekyll, but, um however,.

A

Yeah, okay, so yeah, I thought you did that. I thought we had the conversation the other day about that.

A

um Sorry for making everyone dizzy um so um with that said as a task force we're trying to.

A

Again not tell you how to do your documentation, but give you suggestions and guidelines as to.

A

um What that would look like from a maintainer's perspective.

A

um So where did I go um so how would you think the way you did it.

A

You did it like completely on your own. If you had guidelines from the community, I'm going to kind of.

A

Ask what would they look like for you to want to use them, as opposed to for you to say that's too.

A

Tough, I don't want to do that, and did you know that we supply a free tooling for make the docs.

B

um I yes, I think I am aware of that now. um I think when we started out on this journey, that was not.

B

Available, uh if I, if I'm recalling that correctly so now, it's weighing the cost of like switching to.

B

Something else um I guess back when we back when we started the journey of building a doc site.

B

Read the docs was available, but we were steered away from it as it. Basically, we were told like.

B

You can use that if, if you need to it's, not free.

B

um So we would prefer things that are free. That was sort of the guidance from from hyperledger.

B

um So so we set out on a on a task to find something that was open. Source was free and.

B

Flexible enough that we could customize it to do whatever we need to do um so. We landed with.

B

Just hosting it, with github pages and using a uh a jekyll theme that we could customize.

B

um It does have some some pretty nice features. um Some of them are are fairly sophisticated. uh It. It.

B

Is fully um and actually a lot of this we built ourselves to um so it it's fully uh localizable.

B

Internationalizable, if that's a that's, probably not a word,.

B

um I'm not even good at english so, but uh you could have it in different languages.

B

um So that we haven't had docs, contributed in other languages, but we've done a a proof of.

B

Concept um in having a couple of pages or or replacing strings, and that sort of thing in.

B

In other languages, so so that's cool, um it's also versioned as well. So every time we release a new.

B

Version of firefly there is a a new version of the doc site, that's published and all of the previous.

B

Versions are archived and you can select them from a drop down now that being said um it it does have.

B

Some like we built all that ourselves and uh we are not professional documentation, site builders.

B

um We so we we tend to basically uh spend the amount of time necessary on the docs to make them.

B

Excellent, um but not perfect and and then focus more of our efforts on building.

B

um As perfect as possible, blockchain software.

A

That journey from, like the community, if you said you didn't know that make the docs was.

A

A paid tooling, if, before you started like we have the mentees going through and creating.

A

These new repositories and one of our jobs, is to look at that and say if we could give them.

A

uh Before you start making your your documentation use, think of using this and the question to that.

A

Is were your graphics from the community easy for you to find, or did you have to search for them or.

A

You know, like was the firefly logo right there for you or that kind.

A

Of style guide stuff from scratch, so uh I I guess yeah it was there.

A

um Yeah, nice- I I didn't make it, but um uh a colleague former colleague of mine, did.

A

Oh, that's that's interesting and, and the name.

A

You guys came up with the name or did hyperledger give you the name. I think you guys came up with it.

B

We brought the name, we brought the logo yeah good, good, good good, um but that's not always the case.

A

Right sometimes, I think in my opinion, sometimes people like when cactus, I think they told cactus.

A

What to call it's, you know like so again, I don't think there's clear guidelines on that either.

A

Did once you created the logo, was there any way or or like? How did you get it up?.

A

To david, to say this: is our logo use this like? Was that easy or confusing for you or.

B

um Yeah, it was pretty straightforward, I think once we became a um so I don't think they did.

B

Anything, I don't think hyperledger did anything with it. While we were a lab.

B

uh But as soon as we became an incubating project, they said hey, send us the svg for your logo and.

B

Then they slapped the word hyper ledger above it and said how's. This look and we said you know, make.

B

Sure it's lined up, but otherwise looks great, um and so so that was about it I mean it was.

B

Just a few emails back and forth, um it's pretty straightforward and and again the beginning part.

A

What would you have needed from the hyperledger community in so far as knowing about make the docs.

A

To use like if we came up with oh we're, going to use git books, oh we're going to use, make the docs.

A

Or would that have been helpful for you? What would you like that to look like yeah? I guess.

B

um So when did make the docs become available and kind of become the recommended standard, I would.

A

Say about when, when we started the task force a year ago, david and tracy said, and I'm gonna.

B

Okay share this real quick there's a page, that's called work in progress, which is news to me.

B

Yeah, so you at that point, our doc site had already been going for a year and a half strong and yeah.

B

um So so I guess just like I became aware of it again. That's again, that's one of the things that.

A

um The problem in the community is that people aren't aware of what to do they it's more of a.

A

Problem to figure out what the toc is looking for than actually to do what the toc is looking for,.

B

So I I guess it would have been helpful um to have make the docs available. Okay, helpful.

B

um We've like it just wasn't there when we needed it, um which is fine, we've been okay without it, but.

B

um And then I guess like when, because I I do remember having a conversation with rye rye.

B

Jones about like hey what? What should we use for docs and there was a maybe a gentle steer away.

B

From read the docs because of uh costs, but uh that was about it, it was kind of like hey, do whatever.

B

Is again, it was whatever's best for the community, um but there was a little bit of a steer away from.

B

Read the docs that was about all we got if make the docs had been available at the time it would.

B

Have been great to have that conversation at that point before we built our site.

B

um I'd say: that's that's about it really um and then um here's like some some.

A

Fun questions: um what do you think so so for best practices and project documentation? Do you think.

A

um Gamifying it or making it um uh badgeable would have been helpful for you, so in other.

A

Words, this even goes to your security and your um licensing and like, if you had kind of.

A

Information as to what those were needed and you could see how far along would that.

A

Have been helpful for you, or does that just something that happens as you go.

A

Like like a badge like okay, so now we have, we got our license, so we have a licensing badge. We.

A

Have our documentation for our three personas and it's clearly, you know specified on our wiki page.

A

So we get a badge for that, like with that kind of system, have worked for you or turned you away.

B

um I I I I personally don't know that I would have been um like motivated by that or or.

B

um I think the like, I honestly, I think, just having the requirements written out on a page is enough.

B

um I there could be some cool ideas around.

B

Incentivizing uh community members to contribute back to the docs with um you know, sort of like.

B

Tokenized uh awards for um sorry, maybe maybe jumping down in your in your list. [Laughter].

B

I think it's related, you know, sort of maybe not the project earning a badge but like.

B

Can I, as a contributor, earn a badge for you know a certain number of contributions and.

B

Can that be something that can uh I you know I can display at as an individual contributor.

A

um So for you like as a project maintainer when you were in incubation heading towards.

A

Graduation, if you had um I'm gonna jump ahead to the dashboard idea, a dashboard that.

A

um Had a checklist on it for everything that you needed to do to get out of incubation to graduated.

A

um And you would earn badges for that that wouldn't really, that would be something you.

A

Would consider additional work and not necessary or something oh, this is great now I know I got.

A

My security badge- I don't have to worry about it kind of yeah. We don't have to keep the maintainers.

A

More work we're trying to make it easier for them, so we're throwing out different ideas.

B

Yeah yeah, um I don't think it would have. I it wouldn't have made any more work for me. I think it.

B

It would obviously be work to build it by whoever builds it. um I don't know that the as I think.

B

About that sort of idea like it sounds cool, I just don't know that the the cost to build it in terms.

B

Of time uh is, is worth the benefit to the people that would be using it yeah for me personally,.

B

Like just having the the requirements written on a page, that's more than enough for me, I can.

B

Go through there, part of it is like I'm. I am the the community lead. So like I, I know the the state.

B

Of the community, so I could just go down the list and go yep check check check no okay, yeah. We need.

B

To work on this one, um not everybody necessarily in the community, would be able to know that. So if.

B

It's if it's something that's like like hey, we want to um publish the status and sort of like.

B

um Promote where we're at in this process, it might be a really useful tool for that.

B

For somebody, who's, not uh as like, hands-on and like their job, is to help the project.

B

Continue to mature, so I mean I think about like, like my my leadership here at collido.

B

Something like that might have been useful to them. As you know, just a page, they could pull up.

B

And go oh yeah! Well here! Here's where we're at in the process rather than coming and asking me like.

B

Hey nico, do do we meet the criteria? What you know, what hurdles do we still have to overcome.

B

So I don't think it's necessarily useful to excuse me. Sorry.

B

To the maintainers that are like checking the boxes and and doing the things themselves, but.

B

It might be useful to other people who are curious about those things.

A

Got it so so real quick, I I you hinted at this before what is your take on ai from the firefly.

A

Team, so um I've had a couple of ideas of where some places where I think it could be useful.

B

um And and I've had even more skepticism from the other maintainers, and so we.

B

Haven't implemented anything yet, but an idea where I thought it might be useful is a a.

B

Chat bot that could probably like stick it in its own channel so that it didn't just like go.

B

Crazy in in other channels, but uh you could ask it questions and basically it would uh we basically.

B

The input would be the doc site, as it would have a knowledge of, like all the different pages of.

B

Things and if somebody asks it a question about like uh well, how do you know, how can I uh send.

B

A a gif of a dancing cat to another firefly member. uh It would go. Oh here, here's a page in the docs.

B

That talks about how you can send data blobs from from one firefly organization to another.

B

um And so so, basically, just like trying to guide people to the existing resources that are there.

B

um That that's a potential way that it could be used. uh I I would caution that, with my my real.

B

World experience with ai um some some colleagues of mine recently um use chat gpt to generate.

B

Sort of um extra descriptions of each of the pages in the doc site to enhance uh search.

B

Engine optimization and the the results were frankly really bad um and the the problem is that.

B

uh Chat gpt in its current state, which is probably one of the best models out there right now,.

B

It it knows what realm firefly is in that it's it's blockchain, software.

B

uh But it doesn't really understand what it is and it it.

B

um It it makes errors in how it talks about firefly, and so so I'm excuse me sorry.

B

There's a there's, a big pr, that's up right now to to change some stuff in the docks, and I started.

B

Reviewing it the other day, and it was basically like every other description, I'm like no. This.

B

Isn't right, no firefly doesn't do that. No reword this this way, and so I finally just went down the.

B

Hall and I talked to the the guys that did it I'm like hey, uh we should talk about like that.

B

Can we just like one? We had descriptions that were written by in like humans who wrote the software.

B

And those descriptions are pretty stinking accurate because they're written by the people.

B

That wrote the code, can we just use those, um but it it was yeah. Our experience was that it's.

B

um It my worry reading through all the stuff that it generated is that it will end up misleading.

B

People, because so so I'll give it a specific example. um One of the common misconceptions.

B

When somebody just like, sees a picture of firefly or reads a one-liner sentence of it, like oh cool.

B

Firefly sounds like a blockchain: firefly is not a blockchain, firefly uses a blockchain and it is a.

B

Platform to build applications on top of um chat gbt often makes the same mistake in it in the way.

B

That it describes firefly, it talks about firefly as if it is a blockchain, and so it will use that.

A

I'm going to wear positions in the text stack correctly exactly so, it will talk. For instance, one.

B

Of the phrases it generated is that um it it said something about firefly doing uh uh distributed.

B

Consensus, which is uh not patently false, if you think of well firefly, is this whole big thing that.

B

Also includes a blockchain okay, I guess that's true, but as an engineer I would describe like the.

B

Like firefly core does it so it also depends on the context in which you're talking about it, like.

B

Firefly core does not do distributed consensus. That role is that, like that is the blockchain's.

B

Job in life and firefly uses the blockchain to be able to do that. So it's sort of these, like.

B

um I I'm worried that it will perpetuate common misconceptions and because it doesn't, I think.

A

His as a task force, we've been really looking into into a foundation robert reeves, about this.

A

um And we were discussing getting an ai engine for frequently asked questions for.

A

The hyperledger community, because I know that jeep chat gbt, was programmed like a year and.

A

A half or two years ago, and the information is only good up to there, which is useless in.

A

Blockchain, because two years is two two years too late um that would be fed only from our.

A

Github repositories and read the docs and from our information do you think that that would fix.

A

That problem, or do you still think that it's thought process and language learning is off.

B

Yeah, I frankly I don't know um my personal experience with it has been when it tries to.

B

Generate its own content, it's um I can tell pretty quickly when something's been ai generated.

B

uh Because it's like it's just not quite right and um and part of that is like I I I know, firefly.

B

And so I can immediately tell when something about firefly has been written by ai or when.

B

It's been written by somebody who actually works on firefly, um it's it's pretty obvious yeah same.

A

Thing with user guide, you can tell when they're flat, yeah, one-dimensional documentation like.

A

Anyway, that's interesting um and again, I don't think anybody has the answer whether.

A

Or not feeding it, the correct information will make it learn properly, but that's.

A

Something that we have to so I just wanted to show you this real quick. If I have it.

A

So one of our recommendations um were the task force. Let me see if I can get.

A

That over there pretty much easy is something that looks like this, which.

A

This was just a mock-up so, depending on who you are coming into the community, if.

A

You're a project maintainer, you would put your project name in there, so if you're.

A

Maintaining more than one project, you could actually check on more than one.

A

Project so you'd put in firefly and then it would uh see if you can get that clear.

A

It will give you that kind of badging or I look at it like a pizza, getting filled up.

A

When your security's done properly that slice is full yeah, this isn't.

A

Going to work on my computer, I'm asking far too much of my computer right now.

A

So an idea like this, where then the contributors would come in and then their git cover or their.

A

Dashboards would look different depending on what they needed to do, and I call it.

A

um Community contributors, those are people in the special interest groups and the working.

A

Groups, as opposed to community curious, I work for a company that might want to spin up a blockchain.

A

And I heard firefly was the easiest. Where do I get information on that? So would this be.

A

Helpful or do you think this is to like you said before labor intents for the benefit.

B

B

B

I'm not sure like where would this be and who would.

B

To the linux foundation, it wants to know who you are so as soon as you log in you.

A

Get your customized dashboard, which has you know, a button to the main page of the.

A

Wiki, you can customize your dashboard to have wherever you go most often, but it would if you.

A

Identify yourself as a maintainer, you would have access to the user guys and.

A

The information you needed to maintain a project as opposed to someone who comes.

A

In and identifies themselves as community curious for firefly, so.

B

I I rarely log in with my linux foundation id the only time I log in is when I need to go edit a.

B

Page, which is usually whenever we have a community call, I log in so that I have right access to go.

B

Create the new page and put it there um other than that I don't ever log into the to the linux.

B

Foundation, um so I don't, I actually don't think in my normal workflow. I would ever run into this.

B

um I think, like the the the wiki is, is helpful when I need to go find something that's related to.

B

Just sort of like the hyper ledger foundation in general and not a particular like the.

A

Observation status requirements that kind of yeah for like. uh If I need.

B

um Like a template, for which is a thing that I look for often but I can never find, is uh like a.

B

Like a slides template for like, what's what's the branding for you know, what's what's the new slide.

B

Template for the new hyperledger branding um like that, that's the type of thing I go to the wiki for.

B

Or like uh how to I need the email address of a toc member or something like that,.

B

um If I'm, if I'm wanting to find information on a project like I'm, going to go to github or I'm.

B

Going to go to like that projects, docs site wherever it's at um those or or discord and.

B

Ask somebody if I need to talk to a person. um I think that's really. The kind of the center of.

B

Gravity for the the community and where the actual activity happens, uh activity happens.

B

In github or discord and uh information is really learned from the the doc site.

A

um Wow, at least for fireplace, oh no, that's probably for all of the projects too,.

A

Good to know um so um briefly talking on tokenizing this. um That would just be more.

A

Work after I've talked to you about this, maybe not for end users to get up to. You know as a as a.

A

Kind of edx course, or a coursera core, so I'm earning badges in the hyperledger foundation.

A

I can get one that says I'm this or on that for my linkedin profile above and.

A

Beyond that, do you think that the maintainers of the community uh contributors to the code.

A

Would benefit from a tokenized learning, environment or contributing environment.

B

um I I certainly think it would be cool. uh I I think in a uh in a.

B

Community, that is very blockchain centric, uh like having more.

B

Open community blockchain uses uh would would definitely just be something. That's like.

B

Just a cool showcase of the technology of like um you know it and it could be built.

B

On firefly and like a public basic chain- or I I don't know if a public base would.

B

Change even a thing you can do securely, but yeah, I'm just I'm. I'm thinking out loud here.

B

um You know and and maybe yeah it's like a job for next year's mentorship program. Doesn't it.

B

You know they get really cool with it. You know, maybe uh maybe a cacti integration that will let.

B

You bridge assets onto a a a different public chain, maybe mainnet or something um but like.

B

Some sort of thing that I like actually like, hey, here's, a here's, a a service that you know as you.

B

um Obviously it would be open source, uh but you know, as you commit code to hyperledger.

B

Projects keeps track of your contributions and is gonna. uh Give you credit for those on.

B

A chain that you can go, look at and and see and um you know, would it be useful.

B

um I don't think it would be like it wouldn't be useful in the sense that, like.

B

It it solves a problem that people had and they can do a thing that they now couldn't do before.

B

um Would it be people in the sense of like being a really cool showcase for hyperledgers projects and.

B

um And just the technology in general and to maybe provide a little bit of an incentive or.

B

Like it just an exciting uh thing that you get for participating in the community, that.

B

You could show to show off to other people um yeah. It could be useful in those regards.

A

Right, that's I'm glad and is final question anything that as a document.

A

Before we make our recommendations to the toc, you think we should know.

B

Oh boy, um all right, I think, we've I think, we've covered a lot of topics.

B

um Yeah we, we would certainly I I guess, maybe not related to this question, but.

B

Like if, if other, if other hyperledger projects are centering around make the docs and if the.

B

um If the features that we need are there and it's not a a huge effort to take, I mean most of.

B

Our docs are written in markdown, so it's I think it should barely portable in terms of like the.

B

Content of the docs, um we would definitely look at unifying uh our doc site and aligning it with the.

B

The rest of them, um especially if it I I didn't, get into the uh some of the specific problems.

B

That we have with ours but the the versioning like it does versioning. But it's very hacky um most of.

B

The most of the the logic for how it versions, the docs, is actually all in github actions. um So like.

B

If there's a better way to do that, uh I would be very interested in that um there's some specific.

B

Cases that are our versioning code in the github actions does not account for which causes problems.

B

Namely, if you do a patch release of a uh feature version so so like you have, if 1.2 is the latest.

B

Feature version, but then you go back and like you do a security hotfix on 1.1.5 or whatever.

B

And release that um it because then 1.1.5 is actually newer than 1.2 there's it it's a mess.

B

um I won't get into all the gorgeous, but basically the code just doesn't really account for that.

B

um For that case, and so it it throws things off, I could see that well. Thank.

A

You so much for your time nico and we, I can't believe we took up the whole hour.

A

um I I've learned so much that will help us with our recommendations. Again, we can come up with the.

A

Greatest recommendations, but if we don't run them by the maintainers, they don't make any sense great.

B

Well, thank you so much bobby appreciate it. Thank you and have a great day. Thank you thanks, bye-bye.