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Description
A recording of the Trade Finance Special Interest Group on January 11, 2022. Mr Alexander Malaket, President, OPUS Advisory Services Int'l Inc;, Toronto took us on a journey that explore the links and the future perspectives for ESG in TF and SCF involving massively DLTs and Hyperledger in particular.
More about the Trade Finance Special Interest Group is at: https://wiki.hyperledger.org/display/TFSIG/
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B
So
if
you
allow
me
just
a
few
words
of
presentation
for
you,
we
have
mr
alexander
malaccat
from
toronto,
canada
and
it's
my
great
pleasure
to
launch
the
new
year
2022
with
him.
It's
an
honor
for
me
to
have
him
here
and
we
don't
stop
with
with
the
topic
that
I
got
very
close
to
myself
to
my
interest,
which
is
esg
and
sustainability.
A
A
I'm
delighted
to
join
you
all
for
this
conversation
and
like
andrea
esg
has
become
an
area
that
I'm
not
only
hugely
interested
in
over
the
last
number
of
years
in
particular,
but
actually
we
have
a
new
firm
that
we've
established
out
of
london
with
three
other
partners
where
we
do
esg
related
and
sustainability
related
advisory
work,
so
it's
become
part
of
the
daily
reality.
That's
what
I'm
getting
at
here.
A
A
A
We
know
that
trade
growth
historically
outpaced
global
gdp
growth
until
the
global
financial
crisis
of
2008,
and
then
it
kind
of
reversed.
We
had
seen
trends
pre-covered
of
the
trade
growth
and
the
export
growth,
in
particular,
taking
its
place
again
as
a
as
an
engine
of
economic
growth.
Now
we're
seeing,
obviously
some
some
adverse
impacts
from
kovid
as
well
on
this
level,
including
on
impacting
sme
suppliers
in
global
supply
chains.
A
Now
I'll
recognize
up
front
and
as
we
should
that
international
trade
is
imperfect,
so
there
are
issues
about
you
know:
equitable
distribution
of
wealth.
There
are
issues
about
reaching
smes
and
micro
enterprises
and
emerging
and
developing
markets.
There
are
certainly
concerns
and
issues
about
the
carbon
footprint
of
trade,
particularly
the
shipping
industry,
and
there
are
a
whole
slew
of
geopolitical
concerns
around
how
trade
works
and
how
the
architecture
for
trade
is
is
built
today,
including
some
challenges
at
the
wto
in
terms
of
equitable
representation
and
all
those
sorts
of
things.
A
To
the
human
experience
it's
you
know,
pulled
pre-covered
400
million
people
above
the
poverty
line,
and
it's
just
generated
significant.
You
know
economic
value
and
growth
and
potential
and
improved
standards
of
living
around
the
world.
So
just
that
backdrop,
I
think
is
you
know.
The
point
is
to
set
the
stage
for
me
about
how
important
a
role
trade
plays
in
in
our
in
our
collective
experience.
A
A
So
that's
my
that's
my
sort
of
soft
side
coming
out,
but
I
do
generally
genuinely
believe
that
trade
has
the
potential
to
do
tremendous
good
has
done,
and
if
we
manage
it
carefully
and
thoughtfully,
we
can
continue
to
do
that.
The
geopolitics
of
trade
are
extremely
critical
as
we
saw
and
we're
seeing
it
now
with
u.s
china
and
a
number
of
other
sort
of
dynamics
and
we're.
You
know,
there's
a
lot
of
discussion
about
reshoring
and
and
onshoring
and
friendshoring.
A
Now
this
is
a
new
term
I've
seen
recently,
but
I
also
want
to
point
out
that
the
economics
are
the
economics
so
as
much
as
it
may
be
attractive
from
a
political
perspective
to
talk
about
certain
things.
There
are
economic
practicalities,
there
are
economic
realities
and,
as
a
respected
colleague
said
on
a
panel
last
year
sometime,
it's
not
that
easy
to
reassure
a
semiconductor
plant.
A
You
know
billion
dollar
operation
just
because
you
decide
you
feel
like
it
or
because
you
need
to
pander
to
local
political
priorities,
and
so
there
are
realities
to
to
think
about.
And
I
I
really
like
the
distinction
of
saying
it's,
not
the
globalization,
but
it's
re-globalization
and
I
credit
that
remark
to
bob
koopman
who's,
the
chief
economist
at
the
wto,
who
joined
us
on
a
panel
last
year
and
made
the
case
very
compellingly
for
me
that
that,
in
fact,
is
what
we're
looking
at.
A
So
all
that
to
say
that
trade
is,
is
critical
on
a
number
of
levels
and
you
know
we're
looking
at
from
a
financing
perspective
techniques
that
are
very,
very
well
established
on
the
classical
trade
side
and
certainly
growing
very
quickly
on
the
supply
chain
side,
particularly
people's
finance
structures
and
techniques.
So
there's
there's
a
real
sort
of
growth,
dimension
or
or
or
tendency
in
the
trade
space.
A
What
I'd
like
to
do
is
put
put
put
to
you.
This
notion
of
integrative
trade,
which
I
know
was
written
about
very
significantly
by
the
former
governor
of
the
the
bank
of
canada,
who
also
was
the
chief
executive
of
our
national
export
credit
agency
steven
poloz
stephen,
has
written
extensively
about
this
notion
of
integrative
trade
that
links
international
trade
and
supply
chains
to
things
like
foreign
direct
investment
flows.
A
So
the
point
here
is
to
say
that
when
we
talk
about
trade,
we're
not
talking
about
trade
in
isolation,
but
we're
talking
about
it
in
a
broader
context,
which
includes
you
know,
trillions
in
foreign
direct
investment
flows
that
are
linked
to
trade
activity
and
vice
versa.
So
you
either
establish
an
operation
and
you
trade
or
you
trade,
and
then
you
establish
an
operation
that
leads
to
to
investment
flows
and
that
also
ties
into
the
unsure,
like
onshoring
reshoring
conversation.
A
When
you
find
that
general
electric
is
3d
printing
components
of
aircraft
engines,
it
starts
to
become
really
interesting,
and
when
you
find
that
you
know
there
are
people
talking
about
people
like
kate
ralworth
in
the
uk.
Talking
about
donut
economics
and
saying
economics
needs
to
be
looked
at
in
a
completely
different
context,
with
things
like.
What's
the
upper
limit
of
what
we
can
do,
given
that
we
live
on
earth
and
the
earth
itself
has
its
constraints,
and
so
you
know
what
what
what
what
can
we
do?
Where
are
the
limits?
A
Where
does
it
start
to
get
dangerous
and
then
the
whole
sustainability
conversation
comes
into
this
as
well?
Now
we
also
post
covet,
have
put
a
lot
of
attention
on
the
digitization
discussion
which,
by
some
estimates,
has
been
accelerated
by
at
least
five
years,
certainly
in
trade
fans
and
now
we're
seeing
more
and
more
momentum
in
trade
digitization
as
well,
and
we've
had
some
really
good
progress
in
part
thanks
to
chris
southworth
at
icc,
uk
with
malita
and
the
pickup
in
digitizing
trade,
finance,
documentation
and
related
activities.
A
A
So
there's
a
real,
as
I
said,
interlinkage
between
the
three
topics
and
the
tech
that
we're
exploring
today
just
very
quickly.
Actually,
it
was
interesting
to
note
that
walmart
is
thinking
about
these
blimp-like
floating
warehouses,
so
you
can
imagine
those
things
being
deployed
in
a
number
of
places
and
then
having
drones,
deliver
from
one
blimp
warehouse
to
another
or
maybe
to
the
end
client,
and
so
all
that
again
to
say
that
there
are
some
very
interesting
changes
coming
on
the
physical
supply
chain
side
of
things
on
financing.
A
A
A
You
know
we
have
a
global
trade
finance
gap,
that's
gone
from
1.5
trillion
to
1.7
trillion
according
to
the
adb's
latest
analysis,
and
we
know
that
there
are
some
real
challenges
in
terms
of
being
able
to
fill
that
gap
using
traditional
mechanisms
and
traditional
providers
of
trade
finance,
and
if
I
can
put
it
more
bluntly,
we
know
that
the
banks,
who
are
the
core
providers,
certainly
of
traditional
trade
finance,
will
never
fill
that
gap.
They
just
simply
don't
have
balance
sheet
capacity;
they
don't
have
risk
tolerance.
They
have.
A
A
So,
in
terms
of
what
trade
finance
is
again,
this
is
a
sophisticated
audience,
but
I
wanted
to
share
with
you
my
framework
for
this
and
I've
used
it.
I
don't
know,
probably
for
the
last
15
years
or
so,
and
it's
it's
enough.
I've
included
it
in
my
book
on
the
topic
and
so
far
it
has
stood.
The
test
of
time
and
it
hasn't
been
broken
down,
and
so
what
I'll
say
is
trade
finance?
A
Notionally
with
the
paper
flows,
but
this
graphic
that
was
created
by
boston,
consulting
group
in
2018
has
been
extremely
useful
to
me
to
get
a
visual
of
this,
you
know
35
to
45
pages
of
documentation
per
trade
deal
600
million
documents
per
year.
You
know
400
400
to
600
data
fields
per
transaction.
A
And
4
000
to
6
000
data
field
interactions,
which
is
about
200
billion
per
year,
and
yet
we
know
that
there's
a
huge
amount
of
duplication
in
all
this.
So
when
we
talk
about
the
potential
for
trade
finance
to
be
digitized,
it's
partly
addressing
this
problem
and
really
getting
to
the
core
of
the
really
valuable
data.
A
That's
in
in
this
activity
and
in
fact,
just
quickly
to
mention
in
the
anti-money
laundering
financial
crimes,
compliance
aml,
cft
space,
and
we
are
doing
some
work
with
adb
on
on
on
this
kind
of
thing
and
how
we
could
better
leverage
the
data
in
these
transactions
to
enhance
investigations,
intelligence
gathering
and
prosecutions
around
aml
activity,
as
well
as
the
underlying
predicate
crimes.
So
there
are
a
number
of
applications
to
these
technical
evolutions
just
quickly
on
supply
chain
finance.
A
As
I
mentioned,
that's
where
the
growth
is
in
our
business,
I
mean
traditional
trade
mechanisms
have
been
trending
flat
to
downward
for
at
least
the
last.
I
don't
know
10
15
years,
if
not
longer,
and
industry
data
shows
that
year
on
year,
and
so
we
know
that
the
growth
is
in
these
supply
chain,
finance
techniques
and
in
2016
we
published
with
four
industry
associations.
A
Five
pardon
me
partnering
partnering
on
this,
these
sort
of
standard
definitions,
which
I
commend
to
you
if
you've
not
seen
them,
but
that's
where
the
growth
is
in
terms
of
how
financing
gets
done
from
a
trade
perspective
now
just
to
get
to
the
esg
discussion
relatively
soon.
But
I
want
to
spend
a
bit
more
time
on
this
piece
because
I
think
that's
the
new
element
of
this,
perhaps
for
this
group
and
it's
to
say
that
I
want
to
put
esg
in
in
a
historical
arc
for
you.
A
So
if
you
go
back
maybe
30
years
or
so
when
the
environmental
movement
started.
This
was
for
me
the
beginning
of
the
kind
of
thinking
that
led
us
to
where
we
are
today
in
terms
of
esg.
So
when
greenpeace
was,
you
know,
storming
ships
at
sea
and
people
were
considered
to
be
on
the
fringe.
If
they
were
talking
about
environmental
issues,
you
know
we're
at
a
point
now
where
the
environment
as
you've,
seen
from
cop
26
and
other
things
happening
around
us.
A
It
is
very
much
at
the
heart
of
the
discussions
that
we
undertake,
even
in
in
corporate
board
rooms
in
esg
space
when
you
have
larry
fink
at
blackrock.
Who
is
you
know
that
manages
the
biggest
one
of
the
biggest,
if
not
the
biggest
investment
funds
on
the
planet,
and
you
know
championing
esg
and
championing
sustainability.
You've
got
to
appreciate
how
much
those
fringe
and
I
put
that
in
quotation
marks.
Conversations
have
come
into
the
into
the
heart
of
of
of
discussions
policy,
discussions,
commercial
discussions
and
other
similar
conversations.
A
A
So
the
the
sdgs
are
very,
very
far-reaching,
as
you
can
see
and
they're
very
ambitious
in
terms
of
how
far
they
reach
in
defining
the
sub
goals
and
activities
that
we
hope
to
accomplish,
underneath
that
sdg's
umbrella,
certainly
the
whole
discussion
of
stakeholder
capitalism
and
the
triple
bottom
line
has
picked
up
momentum.
So
this
is
a
whole
question
of
what's
the
purpose
of
a
corporation
or
a
business,
is
it
really
all
about
the
milton
friedman,
profit
maximization
discussion,
or
is
there
something
larger
than
that?
And
you
know
it's
coming
into
this
whole
discussion
of?
C
A
Should
it
be
conscious
of
the
social
license
or
to
operate,
and
should
it
then
have
a
responsibility
that
ties
back
to
that,
and
I
think
the
answer
is
yes
on
both
points,
but
I
think
there
are
still
some
debates
about
how
far
along
we've
come
and
how
far
we're
likely
to
travel
down
that
path.
There
are
still
those
arguing
that
actually
profit
maximization
remains
the
primary
motivation,
and
actually
the
rest
of
it
is,
is
a
bit
fanciful
and
not
not
at
all
realist
realistic.
A
But
when
you
keep
in
mind
that
you
know,
bloomberg
is
predicting
53
trillion
u.s
dollars
in
assets
under
management
that
will
be
esg
aligned
by
2025,
which
is
now
only
three
years
away.
That
represents
about
33
percent
of
global
assets
under
management
by
various
investment
funds
and
asset
managers.
So
you
can
see
that
there's,
at
least
at
least
the
potential
for
a
huge
esg
aligned
activity
in
the
capital
markets
and
that's
going
to
drive
a
lot
of
other
activities
as
a
result,
as
it
is
already
doing
so.
A
This
whole
evolution
or
this
arc
of
history
around
esg,
I
think
is,
is
when
you
connect
those
dots.
This
way,
hopefully
it
becomes
clear
that
actually,
it
is
part
of
a
longer
term
progression
and
it's
not
something
that
suddenly
popped
up
out
of
the
blue
and
it's
not
some
theoretical
exercise
that
people
have
come
up
with,
maybe
on
the
ngo
side
or
on
the
academic
side.
It
actually
ties
very
directly
to
the
broader
evolution
of
human
society,
of
business
of
trade,
and
we
can
we
can.
A
We
can
trace
that
that
arc
of
history
back
at
least
34
years,
if
not
before
that,
and
I
think
that
when
you
track
the
space-
and
you
find
that
boards
and
c-suite
executives
are
taking
very
much
to
heart
their
obligations
in
the
esg
space
and
the
sustainability
space,
it's
no
longer
an
option
to
have
that
conversation.
It's
actually
an
energetic
requirement
and
I
think
people
are
becoming
more
and
more
conscious
of
that
reality.
A
It
is,
however,
a
nascent
space
now
the
53
trillion
that
I
mentioned
a
minute
ago.
I
mean,
if
you
pick,
if
you
run
a
google
search,
which
I
did
just
before
this
presentation
and
do
an
image
search
on
esg
investment
investments
or
esg
funds.
This
is
basically
what
you
find.
Is
you
find
a
group
of
these
kind
of
graphs
from
multiple
sources
and
they're
all
hugely
trending
upwards
in
terms
of
esg
or
sustainability,
aligned,
investment
activity
and
that's
going
to
translate
in
fact,
in
fact,
has
at
the
broader
economic
level
as
well.
C
A
This
is
when
I
say
it's
a
nascent
space.
You
know
I
go
back
to
the
work
that
we
did
in
the
supply
chain-
finance
area
in
20,
whatever
it
was
2014
to
2016,
where
we
didn't
even
speak
the
same
language
on
supply
chain
finance
as
an
industry-
and
I
argue
we
still
don't.
We
still
have
work
to
do
to
get
to
consistent
language
and
definitions,
but
esg
is
is
even
you
know
earlier
in
its
journey
on
this.
A
There
are
debates
now,
whether
we
should
be
talking
about
environmental,
social
and
governance
issues
esg
or
whether
we
should
be
flipping
it
and
saying
actually
it's
governance,
environmental
and
social
issues,
because
if
you
get
the
government's
governance
right,
then
the
rest
should
flow
properly.
Now
you
know
define
what
right
proper
governance
looks
like,
and
then
you
get
into
another
discussion.
But
those
who
argue
ges
are
saying:
if
you
get
the
governance
right
at
the
board
level
at
the
policy
level
at
the
c-suite
level,
then
the
rest
should
flow.
A
Naturally,
now
that
assumes
that
the
governance
thinking
has
evolved
beyond
the
pure
profit
maximization
motivation,
which
it
hasn't
in
all
places.
So
you
know
there's
some
debate
there.
Then
then
the
question
starts
about:
is
it
really
esg
or
our
esg
three
specific
or
distinct
pillars
within
within
this
construct?
And
then
the
question
becomes
with
climate
change.
A
So
there's
a
real
question
about
whether
you
break
it
up
into
components
or
not
whether
that
makes
sense
or
whether
you
have
to
take
a
holistic
approach,
then
recently
there's
even
been
a
suggestion
that
actually
esg
isn't
even
enough.
So
we
need
esg
and
then
we
need
another
e
to
deal
with
the
economics
because
we
need
to
re
deal
with
the
reality
of
the
economic
impact
of
the
esg
considerations
and
we
need
to
deal
with
the
reality
of
what
are
the
economic
opportunities
that
come
with
the
whole
esg
construct.
A
A
Now,
just
to
give
you
a
sense
of
the
scope,
this
is
from
the
sustainability
accounting
standards
board,
which
now,
I
think
doesn't
exist
anymore,
post
cop
26..
It's
been
it's
been
integrated
with
another
entity,
but
but
the
sas
b's
and
materiality
map
gives
you
a
good
sense
of
all
of
the
sorts
of
things
that
are
involved
and
certainly
talk
about
e
for
the
environment.
A
There's
a
lot
of
talk
about
carbon
emissions,
but
there
are
a
whole
range
of
other
issues
under
that,
including
somewhere
in
there.
I
think
there
should
have
been
biodiversity,
because
if
you
interesting
enough,
I
mean,
if
you
look
at
the
world
economic
forum,
risk
risk
map,
biodiversity
likely
risk
and
the
highest
adverse
impact
risk.
So
it's
the
biggest
single
risk
that
the
weft
identifies
in
the
risk
map
is
biodiversity
loss.
A
So
this
is
just
to
give
you
a
sense
of
all
the
sorts
of
things
that
could
be
covered
under
an
esg
discussion,
labor
practices,
obviously
labor
safety.
You
know
child
labor.
We
think
about
that.
A
lot
in
the
context
of
trade
and
supply
chains,
or
at
least
we
should
and
then
and
then
beyond
that.
I
can
also
highlight
the
sorts
of
things
that
that
tie
into
some
very
significant
risks
right.
A
So
if
we
look
at
the
whole
1.5
degree,
conversation
that
came
out
of
or
that
fed
into
cop26
and
actually
has
been
part
of
the
conversation
for
some
time,
the
the
practical
reality
I
mean
this
is
life
and
death
right.
If
we
get
past
a
certain
point
of
temperature
on
the
earth
and
last
year,
apparently
was
the
hottest
year
temperature
wise
on
record
in
the
history
of
our
experience.
If
we
get
past
a
certain
point,
everything
on
earth
becomes
uninsurable.
A
So
imagine
the
implications
of
that
for
you,
whether
it's
your
home,
whether
it's
your
businesses,
whether
it's
you
know
your
business
partners,
anything
that
you
can
imagine
where
you're
trying
to
mitigate
some
form
of
risk,
the
insurance
companies
and
their
partners
simply
will
not
be
able
to
do.
This.
We've
already
seen
huge
payouts
related
to
climate
disasters,
and
things
like
this
over
the
last
number
of
years
and
that's
become
a
very
significant
topic
of
discussion
in
short
circles.
A
But
just
imagine
if
you
get
to
a
point
where
absolutely
nothing
is
insurable
and
the
implications
of
that
are
just
mind-boggling.
I
mentioned
the
whole
business
of
biodiversity
loss,
so
it's
really
climate
plus
biodiversity.
We
have
some
really
significant
challenges
to
deal
with
there
and-
and
you
know,
some
of
the
initiatives
that
are
being
undertaken
here
are
helpful
and
important,
but
it
just
feels
like
we're
not
doing
enough.
A
A
So
I'm
going
to
assume
it's
yes
for
all
of
you
and
one
of
the
stunning
things
that
I
learned
recently
and
you
can
tell
by
the
gray
hair
here.
If
I
was
smart,
I
would
be
talking
about
you
know
early
early
retirement
and
golfing,
but
but
I'm
I'm
I'm
not
so.
For
that
reason,
I'm
back
in
school.
One
of
the
things
I'm
studying
is
a
certificate
course
in
esg
and
in
the
context
of
this
very
very
good
course
with
a
guest
speaker
who
works
in
the
area
of
of
human
slavery
and
human
trafficking.
A
So
when
I
heard
that
data
point-
and
the
gentleman
who
spoke
to
us
is
an
expert
in
the
field-
and
he
said
I
can't
get
my
number
below
38.-
that's
how
ingrained
human
trafficking
and
human
slavery
is
in
our
international
supply
chains.
So
I
leave
that
with
you
to
think
about
the
fact
that
we're
not.
This
is
not
a
theoretical
conversation.
When
we
talk
about
esg,
we
talk
about
sustainability.
We
talk
about
the
human
impact
of
these
things,
it's
very
very
serious
business,
and
so
this
is
one
data
point.
A
Hopefully
that
will
bring
that
bring
that
point
home
for
you
now
in
terms
of
the
sustainable
development
goals
and
the
esg
piece,
if
you're
a
business
or
if
you're,
running
a
business
and
you
get
it
wrong,
there's
a
huge
reputational
risk
and
increasingly
your
clients,
your
investors
and
your
other
stakeholders
want
you
to
get
this
right
and
if
you
don't
you'll
pay
for
it.
So
there
was
a
significant
case
in
london.
A
I
want
to
say
a
year
and
a
half
two
years
ago,
where
this
company
had
a
very,
very
high
rating
from
one
of
the
esg
ratings
entities
or
agencies.
In
fact,
I
think
they
got
their
top
rating
and
then,
within
a
number
of
weeks
it
was
found
that
one
of
their
production
facilities
about
60
miles
outside
of
london.
So
we're
not
talking
about
some
corner
of
the
world
here.
A
A
Actually
this
is
the
biggest
road
map
opportunity
that
we've
ever
seen,
because
for
companies
and
businesses
and
organizations
that
solve
these
problems,
the
upside
is
tremendous,
and
so,
when
we
look
at
it
from
a
trade
and
supply
chain
perspective,
if
you
address
the
sustainable
development
goal
of
goal
objectives
through
your
supply
chains
and
through
trade
activity,
the
upside
is
is
huge.
I
mean
when
they,
when
there
was
a
business
roundtable
attempt
to
calculate
the
financing
of
the
sdgs.
Originally,
this
is
going
back
a
number
of
years.
A
The
positive
element
to
that
was
the
roi
was
estimated
to
be
300
if
we
could
get
it
right
so,
and
that
was
a
very
sort
of
initial
rough
estimate,
but
the
upside
is
very
significant.
Now
we
mentioned
that
we
are
still
looking
at
definitions
and
discussions,
we're
even
even
more
broadly
than
just
esg,
even
some
of
the
language
that
we
use
in
this
context
needs
definition
right.
Are
we
talking
about
a
carbon
tax
or
a
carbon
price?
And
I
really
don't
like
the
carbon
tax
expression,
because
it's
a
political
expression
it.
A
It
is
meant
to
stir
up
opposite
opposition
or
to
to
to
create
controversy
when,
in
fact,
what
we're
saying
is
that
carbon
needs
to
be
priced
into
the
production
of
goods.
We
need
to
take
externalities,
as,
as
we
say
in
economics
and
actually
price
them
into
the
production
of
the
goods
that
are
being
created,
so
that
you're
actually
reflecting
the
appropriate
cost
of
resources
and
then
creating
appropriate
value
related
to
that
production.
So
it's
it's
a
pricing
exercise,
not
a
taxing
exercise
or
a
taxation
exercise.
A
We
can
go
out
and
buy
solar
panels
tomorrow.
The
way
you
guys
can
do
it
so
there's
a
huge
disconnect
between
expectations
and
realities
on
the
ground
and
actually,
if
you're,
in
discussions
with
emerging
market
leaders
and
developing
market
leaders,
they
will
tell
you
in
some
parts
of
the
world
burning.
Coal
is
a
matter
of
life
and
death.
It's
the
only
source
of
heat
and
energy,
that's
available
or
economically
available,
and
so
it's
life
and
death.
It's
not
a
matter
of
you
know.
We
have
a
choice
and
we're
just
making
the
wrong
choice.
A
It's
it's!
It's
something
that
where
there
isn't
really
optionality
and
by
the
way
you
know,
I
don't
have
the
data
point
on
this,
but
I
suspect,
if
you
eliminated
all
the
carbon
emissions
of
the
continent
of
africa,
you
it
would
be
a
drop
in
the
bucket
compared
to
if
you
solved
the
us
or
china
or
one
of
the
other
sort
of
large
economy
emissions
problems.
So
there's
also
this
kind
of
inequity
in
the
whole
conversation.
A
I
just
want
to
highlight
again
that
I'm
unconscious
that
we're
coming
up
on
time
so
we'll
wrap
it
up
shortly.
But
I
want
to
highlight
again
in
the
context
of
trade
and
supply
chains,
that
look
you
know
multiple
10,
000
or
20
000
suppliers
whatever
and
think
about
the
esg
and
sustainability
discussion
in
the
context
of
this
kind
of
a
supply
chain
that
reaches
from
say.
You
know,
europe
all
the
way
through
to
africa
or
south
asia
and
all
of
the
circumstances
of
each
company
and
business
and
community
across
that
supply
chain.
A
Even
with
that,
what's
very
clear
is
that
investors
and
consumers
and
other
stakeholders,
and
now
increasingly
regulatory
authorities
are
demanding
esg
alignment
and
esg
aligned,
behavior
from
supply
chains
and
particularly
large
buyers
at
the
end
of
supply
chains.
So
when
a
large
buyer
faces
that
kind
of
demand,
they
will
naturally
drive
that
requirement
down
into
their
supply
chains,
which
will
drag
smes
and
micro
enterprises
into
the
esg
discussion,
whether
they
want
to
be
there
or
not.
A
And
when
my
my
partners
and
I
run
discussions
with
a
firm
in
the
uk
on
this
topic
to
say
how
do
we
make
esg
not
only
relevant
for
smes
but
also,
let's
say,
affordable
and
and
actionable,
and
we
all
know
smes
they're
living.
You
know
from
one
invoice
to
another:
they're
cash,
poor
and
resource
poor
and
they're,
basically
often
in
survival
mode,
and
when
you
come
to
them
and
say,
look
you
got
to
be
thinking
about
sustainability,
they
very
often
say
well
I'd
love
to,
but
I
have
to
pay
my
bills
right.
A
I
have
to
I
need
my
payroll
or
I
have
to
pay
my
utilities
or
whatever.
So
it's
a
it's
an
urgency
question,
but
the
minute
their
buyer
says
thou
shalt,
then
suddenly
it
becomes
part
of
that
survival
equation,
and
that
is
what
we're
seeing
happen
and
so,
yes,
she
will
be
driven
down
into
the
sme
supplier
community
and
we're
actually
seeing
that
now.
So
part
of
the
connecting
the
dots
discussion
today
is
to
to
realize
that
supply
chain.
A
Initially
that's
gone
through
the
supply
chain
and
made
it
to
the
endpoint,
and
if
we
can
show
that
and
if
we
can
certify
that,
can
the
financiers
come
in
and
offer
some
kind
of
incentive
for
that
sustainable
sourcing
behavior,
so
that
kind
of
thinking
isn't
new,
but
we're
still
very
much
working
on
it
and
developing
and
evolving
it.
So
the
traceability
piece
ties
in
very
much
with
the
transparency
piece
now.
A
What
covida
is
brought
into
focus
for
us
is
the
resiliency
question
and
resiliency
is
a
matter
of
how
well
and
how
quickly
does
a
supply
chain
respond
to
unexpected
shocks?
And
so
that's
the
other
piece
that
we're
observing
now
and
actually,
interestingly
enough,
at
least
anecdotally
and
there's
some
data
starting
to
come
up
on
this.
A
Somebody
else's
problem
have
done
far
worse
than
those
companies
who
looked
at
their
businesses
and
their
communities
holistically
and
said.
Okay,
how
do
we
come
together
to
address
this
crisis
and
how
do
we
come
out
of
it
in
a
in
a
healthier
stronger
way?
So
the
sole
esg
discussion,
again
in
mid-crisis,
has
proven
to
be
very,
very
practical
and
important.
A
I've
been
in
discussions
with
with
asset
managers
and
and
pension
fund
managers,
who
said
to
me,
look
my
job,
my
mandate,
my
fiduciary
obligations
to
maximize
returns
from
my
pension
plan
or
whatever
investment
fund
they're
managing.
So
if
I
have
to
go
and
invest
in
a
sim
portfolio,
you
know
munitions,
you
know
cigarettes
or
whatever
and
it's
not
esg
land
and
it's
not
sustainable.
Oh
well.
A
We
talked
briefly
about
supply
about
trade,
finance
and
the
fact
that
we
don't
have
capacity
in
traditional
sources
to
meet
the
1.7
trillion
dollar
trade
financing
gap.
We've
been
doing
some
work
and
again
it's
a
multi-year
kind
of
effort
and
we're
trying
it
to
kick
it
off
again
with
with
our
friends
at
itfa,
with
sean,
edwards
and
and
strassen
goodplaying.
A
In
the
context
of
supply
chains,
we
then
become
a
very
attractive
esg
line
investment
opportunity,
and
so,
if
we
can
connect
the
dots
between
trying
to
develop
more
capacity
to
finance
trade
and
making
trade
finance
assets
more
usg
land
and
more
sustainable,
we
might
be
able
to
motivate
more
capital
to
come
into
the
asset
class.
And
we
know
that
at
the
moment
the
global
capital
markets
are
flush
with
cash.
A
People
are
looking
for
deals,
people
are
looking
for
returns
and
they're
looking
for
esg,
attractive
investment
alternatives,
and
I
think
I'd
like
to
suggest
you
that
trade
finance
is
one
of
those
attractive
alternatives.
If
we
can
tell
the
story
appropriately
and
create
the
circumstances
in
terms
of
the
asset
class
being
comparable
and
competitive
to
other
alternatives.
And
one
thing:
that's
clear:
in
the
esg
and
sustainability
space,
including
the
unsdgs,
is
that
you
know
public
capital,
meaning
in
government
sources
will
not
do
it
alone,
that
private
capital
must
be
mobilized
in
connection
with
it.
A
The
discussion
around
esg
has
to
be
a
serious
one.
This
is
taken
from
our
esg
validation
white
paper
that
we
published.
I
think
it
was
early
2020.,
it's
not
a
it's,
not
a
luxury
or
distraction.
It
is
a
substantive,
important
consideration
and
the
question
is
you
know:
where
do
you
want
your
company's
reputation
and
performance
to
be
when,
when
this
gets
looked
at
from
a
historical
perspective?
What
side
of
history
do
you
want
to
be
on
on
the
hyperledger
piece
and
andre,
and
I
had
a
brief
discussion
before
I
agreed
to
do
this.
A
I
said:
look
I'm
not
versed
enough
in
hyperledger
in
the
specifics
of
hyperledger,
so
andre,
I'm
going
to
suggest
if
you
don't
mind
that
you
pop
yourself
on
screen
and
you
you
and
I
can
just
chat
about
how
we
connect
the
dots
here
because
for
me
you
know
and
I'll
just
say
that
I
have
a
certain
perspective
on
this.
In
a
past
life,
I
managed
technology
implementations
and
I
worked
very
closely
with
technical
people.
A
I'm
not
a
developer,
and
so
I
don't
get
fired
up
by
the
sexiest
technology,
and
you
know
that's
good
or
bad.
I'm
not
not
saying
it's
good
or
bad
either
way,
but
that's
what
it
is
technology
for
me
as
an
enabler
and
a
provider
of
potential
provider
of
solutions,
and
so
I'd
like
to
just
pose
the
question,
as
I
did
at
the
start
of
this.
A
What
how
central
will
the
role
of
blockchain
be
in
connecting
these
dots
and
then
specifically
on
hyperledger?
You
know,
let's
maybe
have
a
chat
and
the
reason
I
have
by
the
way
a
photo
of
miami
on
this
slide.
I'll
tell
you
there's
a
reason
for
it:
it's
not
just
to
cheer
everybody
up,
I'm
recalling
a
conversation
we
had
at
an
industry
event
a
number
of
years
ago,
as
a
panel
that
involved
a
group
of
blockchain
and
dlt
specialists
and
a
few
people
who
here
who
may
hear
about
this
or
see
this
on.
A
A
Okay,
I
heard
what
you
said,
which
you
all
said,
but
I
I
have
one
fundamental
question
and
the
fundamental
question
is
why
blockchain
and
the
point
he
was
making
was
actually
it's
a
technical
architecture
and
aren't
there
other
technical
architectures
that
achieve
some
similar
things
and
the
thing
that
was
striking
was
that
we
didn't
get
a
clear
answer,
and
so
I
I
remain
sort
of
with
this
question
of
you
know.
What's
what's
the
new
thing?
A
What's
the
new
capability
of
capacity
that's
brought
to
the
table
by
blockchain,
and
so
I'm
I'm
happy
to
have
that
exchange
and
conversation
actually
be
educated
as
a
result
of
it,
and
so
with
that.
I
think
that
will
be
the
end
of
my
remarks.
I
want
to
thank
you
all
very
much
for
your
attention
and
for
sticking
with
us
through
this
hour
and
aleya.
A
B
C
C
C
Okay,
it
helps
to
distribute
responsibilities
and
in
that
sense,
networking
did
it
before
okay,
but
it
brings
in
this
intermediation
which,
on
the
other
hand,
is
what
trade
is
all
about:
okay,
both
in
the
intermediaries
that
at
times
are
needed
and
the
peer-to-peer
transactions
that
that
we
all
wish
for.
Okay,
but
you
made
me
think
a
lot
when
you
you
made
me
realize
how
much
of
my
supply
chain
supports
a
slavery,
something
I
never
thought
before.
C
A
C
A
So
to
be
clear,
I'm
not
critiquing
dlt!
I
understand
the
potential
for
it,
I'm
I'm
contrasting
it
to
say
you
know
it
may
not
be
the
only
solution.
It's
a
good,
complementary
solution,
or
maybe
it's
a
leading
edge
solution,
and
maybe
it
involved
it
evolves
to
be
the
leading
edge
solution.
I
guess
the
call
I'm
I'm
proposing
to
this
audience,
because
you're
all
invested
in
the
topic
is
that
if
there
were
a
clear
answer
to
the
question,
why
the
lt
it
would
be
very,
very
compelling
to
make
that
part
of
the
story.
A
So
what's
your
point
about
miami,
you
know
panama.
I
was
in
singapore
in
november,
I'm
a
member
of
the
bloomberg
new
economy,
trade,
trade
council,
which
is
a
tremendous
privilege,
and
we
had
an
amazing
event
in
november,
and
you
know
it
became
very
clear
that
esg
is
very
central
to
the
trade
conversation
we
had
one
of
the
ministers
from
panama,
too.
I
think
we're
with
us
to
talk
about
panama
and
the
onshoring
and
reshoring
discussion
and
how
it
could
become
a
center
of
of
sustainable
trade
and
sustainable
activity.
A
They're
doing
some
great
things
in
sustainable
tourism.
So
there
are
some
really
really
promising
developments
in
different
parts
of
the
world
and
I'm
glad
you
highlighted
miami
and
its
role
in
the
dlt
space.
You
know
my
suggestion
to
this
community
is,
if
you
could
take
that
ydlt
question
or
why
blockchain
question
and
come
up
with
a
crisp
response.
It
would
be
very,
very
powerful
as
part
of
your
proposition
to
the
wider
world.
B
It's
sort
of
disintermediation
and
sustainable
development.
You
enable
literally
those
micro
companies
to
trade
and
not
be
strangled
by
the
current
system.
So
to
me
to
have
this
new
technology,
some
kind
of
very
beneficial,
although
we
are
far
from
having
the
definitive,
let's
say,
picture
in
hand,
but
in
the
mid
long
term
this
is
something
that
could
perfectly
fit
sustainable
trade
and
trade
finance,
yeah.
C
A
Patronizing
discussion
that
says:
oh
the
poor
sme
they're
having
such
a
hard
time,
they
can't
access
finance,
they
don't
have
resources
they.
They
don't
know
how
to
manage
all
of
this
stuff
right.
The
whole
litany
of
list
of
things
they
can't
do,
but
we
said,
look
hang
on
a
minute
if
anybody's
ever
run
an
sme,
you
know
that
the
people
who
who
found
and
run
small
businesses
are
very
tough,
they're,
very
resilient,
they're,
very
creative.
They
survive
all
kinds
of
crises.
They
negotiate
their
way
through
all
kinds
of
things.
So
why
don't?
A
We
change
the
conversation
and
talk
about
the
sme
as
an
empowered
entity
instead
of
as
a
victim
in
the
conversation?
So
that's
the
gist
of
our
paper,
which
were
just
we,
as
I
said,
we
just
published
it
maybe
a
week
or
so
ago,
and
so
we'll
be
starting
to
do
some
work
and
some
advocacy
around
the
sme
as
an
empowered
entity,
part
of
the
conversation
being
technology,
how
it
enables
the
sme
to
engage.
A
How
reduces
the
cost
of
you
know
due
diligence
onboarding
all
the
kinds
of
things
that
we
know
are
problematic
for
traditional
financiers
to
deal
with
smus,
but
also
that
will
help
the
emerging
fintechs
and
alternative
solutions.
So
I
think
there's
as
much
as
we
could
have
a
you
know:
evolving
discussion
on
tech
architecture.
We
can
have
an
involving
discussion
on
smes
just
like
we
had
today
an
evolving
discussion
on
supply
chains
and
trade
and
what
is
involved
in
all
of
that,
and
we
can
put
all
of
that
under
a
sustainability
and
esg
umbrella.
A
So
I
genuinely
think
that
this
is
not
an
option.
I
think
the
urgency
is
huge
around
esg
and
sustainability
and
I
think
you'll
see
more
and
more
drive
from
not
only
the
capital
markets,
but
the
regulatory
authorities
to
make
this
central
to
our
conversation
and
and
if
you're,
if
you're,
on
a
board
or,
if
you're
in
a
c-suite
and
you're,
not
talking
any
esg
or
sustainability,
you're,
making
a
huge
mistake
and
it's
going
to
cost.
You.
C
A
B
C
She
just
sort
of
finished
what
I'm
going
to
say,
not
so
much
of
a
question
given
that
we
don't
have
a
time
whether
it
is
dlt
or
whatever
technology,
but
the
most
important
part
is
helping
these
empowered
smes
to
be
able
to
get
to
the
financing
to
do
the
job
in
a
responsible
way.
I
believe
that
they're
resilient
and
they
actually
want
to
do
the
right
thing.
They
are
not
just
going
after
money.
Like
part
of
my
statement,
some
of
those
big
corporates
corporates
are
more
greedy
than
smes.
C
Smes
are
just
making
the
ends
meet,
they
want
to
do
the
right
thing
and
we
have
to
fix
that
technology
gap
in
getting
the
trace
ability
to
make
sure
that
all
the
big
financing
institutions
and
small
fans
institutions
can
finance
the
sustainable
produced
sustainable
trade
in
a
sustainable
way.
I
think
we
all
have
a
responsibility
and,
with
the
kind
of
conversation
that
look
at
a
speech
you
gave
I'm
sure
we
can
do
it.
A
So
bro
thank
you
for
that
and
let
me
pick
up
on
two
points
and
I'll
start
with
your
last
point
on
the
smes
versus
the
large
corporates.
It's
interesting.
You
say
that
I
was.
I
just
saw
the
and
I
don't
know
his
exact
title,
but
it's
something
like
head
of
head
of
vsg
or
head
of
sustainability
whatever.
Oh,
no,
I'm
sorry,
it
was
worse.
It's
worse.
A
It's
head
of
compliance,
and
this
guy
was
talking
about
a
large
company
that
got
caught
up
in
some
very
significant
fraudulent
activity,
and
he
said
with
a
straight
face
which
almost
made
me
fall
out
of
my
chair.
He
said
corporations
don't
commit
crimes.
People
commit
crimes
now
this
organization,
you
know
it
was
it
wasn't
an
isolated
incident.
It
was
a
systemic
issue
within
the
company
and
this
guy.
Instead
of
owning
it
and
saying,
okay,
look.
We
need
to
fix
it.
A
We've
made
some
mistakes
whatever
it
was
right
and
he
would
he
had
been
brought
in
from
the
outside
to
fix
the
problem
instead
of
owning
it.
He
said.
Oh
no
corporations
don't
commit
crimes,
it's
like
into
a
few
individuals
in
the
shop
that
do
that.
So
so,
when
you
have
those
kinds
of
attitudes,
it
perpetuates
the
sort
of
perception
that
you
that
you
described
on
the
dlt
thing
on
the
apartment.
A
On
the
bcg
analysis,
it's
amazing
for
those
who've
never
been
in
a
trade
finance
operations,
business
and
I
I
have
been
in
more
years
ago
than
I
could
care
to
counter
or
then
I
will
admit
publicly.
I
remember
speaking
to
one
of
the
deputies
at
one
of
the
probably
top
three
trade
processing
banks
in
the
world
and
he
said
oh
yeah.
A
He
said
I
always
get
these
20-somethings
knocking
on
my
door,
saying
I'm
going
to
come
in
and
fix
your
problem,
I'm
going
to
digitize
your
entire
business
and
he
says
the
first
thing
I
ask
them
is:
have
you
ever
seen
what
a
trade
processing
shop
looks
like
and
the
kid
will
say:
no,
I've
never
been
in.
I
just
I
understand
it.
Theoretically,
I
understand
the
paper
flow.
All
of
this.
He
said.
Okay,
stop
talking
come
with
me,
and
so
he
takes
them
to
this.
A
A
B
B
I
thank
you.
It
was
a
real
pleasure
to
have
you
today
and
hopefully
we
can
expand
our
discussions
in
the
future
to
see
how
dlts
and
especially
open
source
ones
can
feed
esg's.
The
current
in
the
future
is
t
esg
scenario.
Thank
you
so
much
alexander
for
joining
us
today.
Looking
forward
to
talking
to
you
again
and
have
a
great
day
you
all
come
today,
we
got
to
join
forces
again
in
two
weeks.
Time
stay
all
safe
and
healthy.