Internet Engineering Task Force 101, 21 Mar 2017

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From YouTube: IETF101-WGCHAIRS-20170321-1215

Description

WGCHAIRS meeting session at IETF101
2017/03/21 1215

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/proceedings/

A

All right, these things always shock me at how loud they are when I start all right, we're going to go ahead and get started.

A

This is the working group chairs lunch forum come on in try and ruffle your bags quietly.

A

A

First of all, we have. This is now part of the IETF program, it's on the agenda and it is on me, deco and so I am going to. We have the note well, which you see all of the time our agenda for today is the hour administrivia.

A

Then we're gonna have some conversation from the Secretariat, we're going to talk about the hackathon and the relationship to progressing work and working groups through the hackathon and we're going to have an open mic session, during which one of the topics will be working. Group chair training, so with no further ado.

B

B

Hello for those of you who don't know me: I'm Alexa, Morris, I'm, the executive director, hello I'm, with the Secretariat and I.

C

Am Stephanie McCammon I am also with the Secretariat. Some of you get emails from me around scheduling time asking me to desperately reduce your session time and I really appreciate. All of you.

C

All right, so we're gonna talk a little bit today about managing conflicts in the agenda and how we can make things better for everyone. So currently we have a few challenges that we have been encountering. One of those challenges is the retrieve all information from previous meeting button. I think the intent for this button was a really good one that would allow you guys not to have to actually enter in every set of data for every meeting, and you could actually just copy over all of your conflicts and all that great stuff, unfortunately, what's happening.

C

Is that the review of that information isn't happening in a way that keeps it up to date for every meeting. So that's been a challenge. Another challenge has been that attendance numbers I think it. This also stems from the retrieve all information from previous meeting button. The attendance numbers from the previous meeting that we announced when we announced scheduling it's included in that opening scheduling, email that we sent out, aren't being reflected for the next session for the next meeting and the last challenge that we've been running into is that the use of first?

C

Second and third, priority conflicts isn't the actual how how they are important to you isn't quite clear to us. So we know that first priority is a big deal right, um but we don't know why we don't particularly understand what the importance of that is. Is a chair of conflict or a technology conflict, or is it absolutely mandatory, even when you get down to the third priority complex? So those are the things that we've been encountering lately, so we can go to the next slide. I think oh yeah,.

B

Before so so, I had the opportunity to speak with the isg about this this morning to get some ideas from them about how we could handle this moving forward, and they are gonna, be discussing this on a tell chat coming up, but one of the ideas was to change the first second and third priority and reduce it to two categories which would be mandatory and informal. This is sorry important, formal, intelligent, yes, so this is not finalized.

B

This is something the ISD is just starting to discuss and if you have any immediate reactions to this or any suggestions, you're welcome to send that feedback to the isg list and.

C

Just to clarify really quickly about first second and third priority conflicts. We try to avoid all of them right, like we never put out a pre preliminary agenda that is full of third or second priority, so we take all of your conflicts into account. They are all important to us.

C

So one of the things that we are going to try to do is to make some changes to the session request tool that will allow the information to be a little more effective and efficient for us during the scheduling. So the tool will be updated at some point to display actual attendance numbers for previous meetings and I believe during the isg chat.

C

This morning they talked about displaying the attendance numbers for the previous three meetings, which will give you a better idea kind of if you had a hot topic- and you know if you saw a real jump in attendance and then it dipped down, so that would be really nice and the button to retrieve information from the previous meeting will be going away.

C

I'm. Sorry, we will still find a way to make it easy for you to copy that information over or at least we're hopeful that we can but still require some kind of review. And so there were a couple potential options to replace the button discussed by the ISD this morning and Alexa can speak suppose. So. One.

B

Idea is to just have to you every single field and actually copy each one individually, so that will encourage you to actually look at what you had requested last time and copy it if it's appropriate or change it. If it's not. The other option that was discussed was actually having everybody manually reenter everything to really encourage you to think about what you actually need for the session. They are discussing it. If you have strong opinions about it, you should definitely send those to the isg list.

B

C

So that's basically everything we wanted to talk about regarding scheduling so I see that there are some questions. Please go I, don't.

D

um I, like the idea of having the attendance for previous three meetings, but can we also have that baseline with the attendance of your overall ITF covers for the last three meetings? Oh interesting.

C

So actually have on-site attendee numbers like final attendee numbers I mean I, didn't.

D

Mean that but which some regions are more attended than other regions. So you know if I know, my meetings are going up, but it could just because that's more attended reaching.

B

A meeting number next I.

D

Want to numbers I want the attendance for my session and the attendance for that total ITF. Okay,.

C

Interesting, we will look into that hi Kirsten, the.

E

Custom Bowman anything is better than first second and third priorities.

A

E

Have any idea of what these categories mean? So if you call them mandatory nice to have something so I have an idea. What, but the the main comment I want to make is so we actually have a github repository between the chairs for the information that goes into the session request and each time we have to copy over this information into the web form.

E

So, yes, we are using the retrieve thing and then looking at did anything change, but it would be really nice to have a file somewhere on github that we just change, and then we do. The session request from that file may be a little bit of an engineering software guy request, but Jason fire, whatever that we can just put in and discuss beforehand between the chairs and make sure that's all right before we serve it. It's very interesting.

E

Thank you, doesn't have to use github for the submission, but just being able to stand in the fire.

F

So the kind of like some actually actually just making it for less, but this is how I tend to think about my conflict. This sorry jeff has the way I tend to actually do my conflicts is. There's conflicts that the chairs can't have no my day job is bgp. I have to go to idea. Well, that's an example. There's conflicts that might keep participants by working group have no. There are six people that I pretty much know. They're gonna, be there they're responsible for most of the drafts.

F

That sort of thing, so that's another set of categories. Third, one is related working groups that we should not conflict with the FDE overlaps with like om type groups, you should actually overlap with other ops related type things that do that, even though they're not been routing and the last one is sort of the it'd be nice to avoid these things, cuz there's overlap with participation, but no those are the ones that you guys tend to say, though, if it happens happens.

F

G

P&Amp;E malice one thing I I found is that the scheduling tool usually opens before we know what the boss are, and so it's hard to say, I, don't want to conflict with this particular boss, which leaves me to just say in the notes. I want to avoid all boss in the routing area, for example, but you guys might want to say something to the IAB and isg, but perhaps finalizing the list of boss earlier.

G

C

You think that if I think what we've been trying to do is leave the requests to will open later so that working group chairs can make edits to their sessions you're the boss we've been approved. Has that been helpful at all I, don't know if anybody noticed that I.

G

Really hadn't gone back, but now that you mention it I could.

C

Well, it's an option and I'll make it a little more clear in future correspondence. Okay,.

G

Cool thanks. You.

C

H

Hi Elle Morton, following up on that it would be helpful if we got over there.

I

H

H

I'm I'm amazed ball. Oh, we.

J

K

C

C

Yes, you are so.

H

It would be helpful if the iesg sent a message to the chairs when the box have been approved. That way, we could go back and review the conflicts we've written down and those buffs will be maybe in the selection list, something like that, so I I don't think we currently get notice of that at least on chairs list, and that, and that would help me. Thank you. Thank you.

C

I

Lennox, so do things first, as somebody who is flaky, it would be helpful if you sent a mail to the chairs list like two days before the deadline. Saying please remember the schedule. Your working group meeting.

C

We do try to send reminders we'll try to send more okay.

I

I guess the next. It also include by the way this is. These are the box that have now been scheduled, so you might want to review, and then the other thing is I know the blue sheets have a actual start time actual end time field on them, so you could have on the scheduling field. This is how long your session actually took the last three times. That might be helpful for to figure out how much time to request, if that's actually transcribed anywhere, if it's not I, don't want to make more work for you. Thank.

C

L

This is Barry liebe I'm, trying to figure out what the real point of the four levels that was proposed are because, as I look at it, this is not for up for our information right. It's for help. You guys figure out how to avoid conflicts, and so what I had thought of what I have always been using one two and three four is one means we can't have a meeting if this conflict exists, that people will just be too conflicted to means.

L

We can have the meeting we'll be missing some important people, but we can manage and three means it would be nice to avoid this. But it's not a big deal and I would still like to keep that kind of distinction in whatever we came up with next. Maybe what you were getting at also is maybe having time conflicts time time. Slot conflicts as well as meeting conference, so I can't be there on Tuesday or I, can't be there between noon and 6:00, or you can always put that in the comments. I, guess and I.

L

Don't know how we would the other thing that I wanted to say when I got up was it would help me if for putting in conflicts in the future, if I was informed with non parallel conflicts that came up when another working group tells me says my working group is a conflict and I didn't say it back. It would be useful to know that so I can evaluate that situation and decide whether it's something I need to pay attention to.

C

Thank you very.

M

Much a shot from gondwana actually wants to respond to the idea of of holding open the options, change things to really late. I had someone who wanted to be here for the hackathon and one session which turned out to be on Thursday, and so it's dainty. It's how we would not have said the entire week if he hadn't known, but had to book accommodation and book transport in advance too long.

M

He leave that the the harder it is for people who can't be here for the entire meeting to schedule their life around which fits they're coming to you. So don't don't leave it right, laughter, okay,.

N

David black suggestion on box, if memory serves the iesg closes the window for both proposals before they make the approval decision, we can probably soundly figure out the potential Boff conflicts against the baath candid list. Without waiting for the puff of smoke for which ones are actually approved, then the ones that aren't approved you don't have to worry about. We've taken care of.

A

And just just to clarify real quickly David you mean we could figure this out. What we mean is that we, the working group chairs and not we're not asking the secretary.

N

No, no, no! What I'm saying is okay, a little more precisely. Thank thank thank thanks for thanks for poking me. If the working of chairs right the conflicts against the bob candid list that conflict list can be prepared earlier before the iesg decides, which ones they're going to approve and then and then the overworked secretariat has a simpler scheduling problem. When suppose boss aren't approved in this some conflicts, they can ignore right.

A

But that was part of you got to the point I was trying to make is some of what we're talking about here: um we're not asking the secretariat to do things, we're talking about our own processes and our leadership processes, and we need to be clear about that. Right.

N

And what I'm suggesting is is we can buy ourselves a little bit advanced time in setting up what the setting up the conflicts right? Because we, if you, when you know what the bob candid list is, you can figure which ones I'm the same situation as somebody else, which is that we routinely write down. Do not complicate transport area boss and.

A

There is a Baath wiki and everybody can find out the box that are under consideration in advance, but.

C

Just just really quickly, if a bomb hasn't been approved and hasn't been held before in any function, it won't be in the data tracker, so you can't actually enter it as a real conflict. You would have to enter it in the special requests.

O

Juan Carlos knew you so I guess touching on what Carsten suggested and Barry as well I in coming back to this priorities and I understand. That is a way to okay, we communicate this is my wishes. You have to guess what I'm thinking and what actually means, and then you come up with our response and then I cry out loud. No, that was not what I was thinking, but it's not your fault, of course, because the tool doesn't allow it.

O

So, regardless of the number of priorities, probably something a little more dynamic I think would be helpful because often we can also help you do that right. So we know who we have the complete with and nothing. We had that communication with the other chair, so we can figure it out and right some proposals or solution. Had we known that more or less you are pointing towards this conflict.

O

Just to give you an example, if I mean at the airport and I'm losing a flight and I get to the fly to them, and it's like solve my problem, it's going to be a big mess. Where's yourself. If I say I have this issue, could you get me in this flight? Yes, you know next and then a lot of times. You know this quick interaction and us giving you a little more feedback, but also you giving us perhaps feedback in advance like ok chairs.

O

This is what the nanda looks like so far, are you happy or is there something you guys can sort out? Maybe we can get together with another chair or another group? Sometimes this week there there's a conflict on Friday with another group that is meeting outside IETF.

O

So you, how can I tell you that with a tool right, I have to figure it out myself, I have to provide you the they proposal, so maybe either either adding one more cycle with just with the chairs on this preliminary agenda type of thing or having a dynamic tool. Whatever is also more convenient for you like what Carson was proposing, I think would be, would be useful before we start publishing preliminary agendas. Today, that's.

C

Interesting, thank you, and just so everyone knows you can put anything any information. You want the Secretariat to know in that special request field. So if there is an outside meeting that a lot of your participants have to attend, just throw that in there we read them. We pay attention to them. They're important I'd,.

A

Like to reinforce that, because I use that special request field a lot and in particular if I have a regular, remote participant and I would prefer it to be meeting to be in a particular time of day, so I would strongly encourage folks to put all of those additional bits without overwhelming you know, be reasonable, but those additional bits going in the special request field do actually get looked at it. In my experience anyway, and just.

C

As a quick disclaimer, we try to honor them all, but it doesn't always work, but we do really try and we read them. Dave.

P

Walter Meyer on that note, I came in late and I just wanted to make sure that you were thanked for all the work that you do to organize this craziness.

P

And on that note, you know one way of kind of looking at the first. Second, and third priority is, is, you know, must avoid conflict should avoid conflict? You may avoid conflict. Is there anything the week? Is there anything that we could do to actually help with that, like, for example, if we were willing to split our session instead of doing two hours, I do like two one-hour sessions to maybe have like some conflict for one, but no conflict for the other. Is there anything that we could do to help with that yeah.

C

So again, the special request field really works well for this, because TSV working group always put then that one of their two sessions can't conflict with RTC web. But we see that, and so, when we're clicking on all of the individual sessions and we, the tool actually outlines when there's a listed conflict in the display.

C

But then we know that it's okay, if it actually conflicts with one of the RTC web sessions. So again special requests, guys yeah, it really works. Would.

P

It be worth adding a checkbox or something to the form saying that we would accept the split session or yeah.

C

You know I, don't think that's a bad idea at all. Just having a checkbox that says you would be cool with that, because we do have to do that sometimes and typically, what I would do is just email you right and ask if it's okay or email us, you can go to a shorter session. But yes, checkboxes are comfortable. Okay,.

N

Thank you. Thank you.

K

So Spencer Dawkins um I want you I'm glad. Somebody else said. Thank you, so I wore didn't have to be the first person to say it, but thank you both for all that you do especially in this area and a thing I wanted to say in front of the chairs. Just I know that a lot of balk requests come from people that aren't chairs, but it's pretty common in a lot of areas that you are then recruiting a experienced chair to be a co, a kobold chair. You know that that's like a thing.

K

We do a lot, not every time but a lot. So just so, you know this. For ITF 101, every single, lock request, except for I a Satipo know, was entered into the buff wiki less than a week before the cutoff and the ISG was reviewing them like I, think that was over Friday and the IHG was reviewing, though I'm, like maybe a Monday, or is he or whatever it was so anything anything that you can do to help surface this stuff.

K

Earlier, it's going to help you it's going to help the area directors more than it helps you and it's going to help it's going to help the Secretariat where they will carry you out of the room on it. You know, with you know, in Honor, I think the yeah I I I'm I'm really passionate about trying to do better on this cut on the mob stuff.

K

Basically, in the new work proposals in general, because I mean it's, you know it's critical of what we do and I I don't think we got I know they I've been on the ice three five years so far, I don't think we scare much of when it comes to putting new work in because we don't have time and I would like for I would like for us to do better than that and anything that you all can do to kind of nudge people to say. Have you taught anybody about this?

K

Because you know you you? Maybe even you may be talking to your area director, but the other area directors, don't know other people who are wandering around the same, but in the same space don't know you know so they're putting in their requests the overlaps or conflicts or something you know. Okay, I think we I think this is something we need to get better at and I think this is something that working group chairs could really help with and and they thank you in advance for anything that you could do there. So this.

A

Is the last question on this topic? Okay,.

L

Barry Lee, but I want to follow up on what Spencer said, because I've discussed what I'm gonna say now with Spencer and I see, there are a few other IDs in the room. I think the the way the iesg can help us with this is by taking the idea that people are driven by deadlines and moving the deadlines so I'm proposing to them I'm going to propose to them that they put the deadline to be three weeks before or they have the valve call.

L

The baffle submission deadline would give them three weeks to review the valve and they would try to commit to reviewing them in the first week and contacting people with feedback on their bomb proposals to try to use the next two weeks to make the bomb proposal right. So it doesn't get rejected. Then, when the bomb call happens, at least you are prepared with feedback, and you aren't surprised when they say we're not going to approve your Bob I'm interested.

L

If someone wants to come up with me to me afterwards and say that's a good idea or that sucks and let me know, but that's what I'm gonna propose to the iesg and I think that will help that situation.

L

A

Right. Thank you. Thank you.

C

Everyone for letting us have a quick chat, and we're always here for you. Thank you.

A

A

So the second thing that I had asked the Secretariat to do was sort of a short that what I had in mind was: what can we, the working group chairs, do to help the Secretariat and then sort of a slightly and then just sort of turn that around and you know what are what are the biggest questions you guys generally have for the Secretariat's I. Don't want to spend too much time on this, maybe five, seven minutes or so but Stephanie. You said you had a top yeah.

C

I just have a few things that people typically ask me.

A

C

I'm happy to just quickly share them. I think most of you are all pretty aware, but just for clarity's sake and one we actually already kind of covered with the scheduling thing is a lot of people ask if they can be on a particular day of the meeting, and this is really interesting right, because we can usually get a working group on a particular day of a meeting and then when we take it to the IHG there's so much shuffling.

C

That happens and we still really try and pay attention to those special requests, but it often or occasionally gets shuttled outside of that particular day. So if you have a range of days or a particular day, you want please let us know we're happy to try and accommodate that, and we never ignore you. We there's actually a special little stress in the corner of the request in the tool that shows us that there is information in that note, so that we can click on it. Ok, Joe, Joe, Joe.

C

So that's one of the questions that comes up all the time. Other questions that come up often are where are my blue sheets and if they're, not in the clipboard, which we always try and have them in the footboard before session starts, although in this venue it's very difficult getting from one side to the other, as you all know, ok they're, actually, in this folder and.

C

So if they're, not in the clipboard, just flip through the folder guys, this acronym is at the top just pop them in the clipboard. But.

A

While she's giving us these questions, when she and I were talking about this in advance, I was thinking really people ask you this, and so the mere fact that people ask for this made me feel that we really ought to sort of just have quick reminders about some of these things and one.

C

Of the things Karen and I also talked about was especially for new working group chairs I often walk into a room and they are a little flustered right before their session starts, and it's not a very good feeling. So we talked about potentially the Secretary of putting together a little video of what a breakout room looks like and what the important pieces are for chairs to know about so I. If you guys think that would be useful, we will happily do that. The other question we get all the time is: what is the red button?

C

People think you know it can end the world or take over the world, which you know we all wish, but no it just mute, unmeet, mutes or unmute. The Medeco cue.

C

Another thing that comes up all the time is av issues and I have to ask that if you have an AV issue, please send a ticket to MTD or, if I'm, in the room, just flag me down. It's typically something super easy to solve batteries or you know, but if you don't specify which mic it is I actually have to stand at the back of the room and wait for someone to speak into one of the mics to see which one is dead.

C

If someone doesn't flag me down so if I walk in grabbed me, just hey help me down I'm happy to come up and help you guys what I'm here for right. Some of the other questions, yeah, okay, some of the other questions are the clickers we put clickers in every room. There are clickers, they don't always work right, I'm, sorry, but we do do our best to try and have equipment that works for you guys.

C

Maybe we need to make them brighter or something because I feel like they get lost in the shuffle, but they are on every table. If you don't have one again, the MTD queue will solve your problems. There's.

A

Also a chance, if you don't have one the previous working group chair took it with them. So that's.

C

Please remember: to leave I always have something in my bag. Adam.

F

Wrote this real, quick question help remember what this MTD stand for meeting.

C

Trouble desk thank.

F

C

And so really, those are the main things that working your chairs, I feel have issues with during the meeting. If anybody has any questions eep-eep, it's.

Q

Nothing um two things: first, talking to Brian, there's a working group chairs how to chair a meeting wiki. None of this information is in there, so that's actually going to be.

A

One of the there's gonna be the first topic on the open forum. Is we really need to take a look at all of the working group chair, training, material and and update it and make it cleaner and more concise, so excellent.

Q

um Thing too, which is because I got your late and I would have asked in the first go-round, but um there is an experiment. A while ago with me leaving room range, Minh, twitch I have a thing about um being able to do sort of like a center table and then rows in directions behind it.

Q

One question is: have we gotten anywhere further with that or it's just? No one has asked for it, and if the answer is the second, maybe get an idea from this room of who would be interested in having such a meeting room arrangement. Cuz I think it would be great.

C

I'm not exactly sure what happened to that experiment I think that's more of a question for the gee but I'm happy to look into it and get back to you. Pete.

R

David Lawrence I just wanted to say that this is the first time I've heard the phrase working group chair, training, material, I I was not aware that that thing existed, I mean you know, there's documentation here and there, but I wasn't even pointed to when I became a Jackson.

A

Yeah, well that that was one of the the first thing on my list is working group chair, onboarding and and in all fairness, I have any work and give chair. Co-Working group chair on my working group- and he told me this week that he didn't know anything about it and I'm like well. I.

A

Think you're, experienced working group chair is probably supposed to help you out there, but we do need to have just a simple set of materials and I'd really like to see those developed and, at the end of this I'm, going to ask for a couple long tears to help us with the design team to put that together and in particular, if you're, a new working group chair. You would be ideal for that, because these are the questions.

A

I had that I didn't realize the answers to, but that's sort of foreshadowing to the last discussion go ahead. Take.

S

Taylor, so the discussion of mics actually reminded me of some of another reminder that might be helpful and might have actually been helped with me earlier. So I've had two working groups this this week so far and in the first one when the laptop plugged in it would project the springless facing the speaker, but not up on the big one, and there was no AV person in the room and I think it was actually. The reminder is check your screen resolution. If that happens, lower your screen resolution right, I didn't think of that.

S

At times we switched my laptop and the second time there was actually an AV guy in the room that came up and says I'm your AV guy. Do you have any questions whatever and that was in the first room said no, it's actually working fine right now, and so thank you when there was those but I, think it's the answer. The hypothesis is that the ones that are mounted here work, fine and the ones that are sitting on a table are perhaps less reliable and less flexible than the ones their ceiling mounted.

S

That was the AV guys hypothesis, but the reminder is if you're having projection problems lower your spring resolution.

C

Thank you. Well, it's really all I have all right.

A

So, thank you very much Stephanie. um If you all have any more questions, you everybody please thank Stephanie again.

A

The second topic on our agenda is the hackathon and its relationship to progressing work in the idea.

T

All right so hi folks, I I, had the pleasure of talking I'm Charles a quote by the way and along with Barry here and a lot of help from Secretariat. You know, we've been putting on these hackathons and I spoke to you. I, don't know a few I ATF's ago.

T

Just to tell you what the hackathon is I'm, not here, to really spend much time on on that this time around, but rather to talk about some ways in which I hope that we can like what can we do to make the a Khan more useful for you and for the work you're doing in your working group?

T

I want to let you know what we're doing now, some thoughts that I have about what we could do to make it more useful for you and then you know, of course, get feedback from you as to what we can do. So, just as a summary, your the the goals of the the hackathon and you know, but they're kind of twofold.

T

The one is we're trying to make the work we're doing in the IETF progress more quickly with the idea being that, if we don't just talk about things, if we actually write up some code to test out what we're thinking that can be really good, that can help our help us find issues, gaps, ambiguities quicker and then we can use. You know this time to flush out ideas at the same time we're creating some running code that, even if the dot, even if the protocol or whatever it is we're specifying, isn't completely done.

T

It's it's a way for people to start using it. You know so yeah a protocol you're defining if I can actually hear at the same time, building a library that I can use that supports that protocol. For me, as a developer, that makes it a lot quicker for me to start using this technology that you're standardizing.

T

So so those are things we're trying to do. Another thing we're trying to do is to bring more people into the ITF. It mentions here, young people, but really it's just a I'd, say a new set of people. We want to bring more developers into the IETF. We want to bring more people from, say. University working with code is something that they're often much more attracted to than working with a document.

T

It's actually may come as a surprise, if you think of the name of a hackathon, but for a lot of people, it's it's a lot easier for them to step into a hackathon and feel like they're, productive member of a group, as opposed to going into a working group meeting where they haven't, read all the drafts and now they're listening to conversations that they have a hard time following so um you know, I found it is a really good way to onboard people or to bring them into the idea.

T

So with that in mind, just to give you some idea of where we're at that the hackathons been growing. This last time we had 272 people registered and now of those 216 we actually accounted as coming in and being on site. There were another 26 of them. That said, they were going to participate, remotely actually think work. We missed some people, maybe and that we had more than 216 the number that register typically is pretty close to how many people actually come of those 74 of them.

T

This was their first experience with the idea and the little star just means that this is based on information that they entered into our registration page. So it may not be a hundred percent accurate, like if someone didn't show up, but it's pretty close. So to me, that's really interesting. I mean 74 people. This is yeah that their first ITF experience period 109 people. This was their first time at night, EF hackathon.

T

So maybe they had been to an IETF meeting before but never been to a hackathon, and this is also a very interesting number and the fact that it matches exactly the first IETF event. I, don't think it's exactly the same people, although of course there's a lot of overlap, but 74 people attended the hackathon, but didn't stick around for the IETF meeting. On the one hand, I think that's kind of cool to me. It makes me think: oh wow, okay, so the hackathon is really attractive to them, but the hackathon is freeze.

T

They didn't have to pay for it, whereas the meeting cost money to me. It shows an opportunity where I hope that these people come back. They'll attend another hackathon and maybe then they'll they'll decide to stay for an IETF meeting, so the better we can make their hackathon experience and it maybe there's something we can do to help integrate them into the IGF at that time. So don't wanna stay for the meetings. Yeah.

P

I just had a quick Dave Walter Meyer, a quick clarifying question so for the folks that are not attending the IETF meeting. You have a sense of whether they're, local or yeah.

T

Somewhere else, they it tends to be predominantly people who are pretty local or a quick train right away, not always have had people travel a couple examples of people traveling from Europe to the ones we've had in Asia, which was really surprising to me. But you know they found the hackathon that useful to them, but yeah predominantly it's it's people who are within a short range and the fact that it's on the weekend works out really well too. They don't need to miss work or whatever.

T

Okay, this is a list of projects and I'm just showing this so in case. Hopefully, if there were projects related to your working group, you were aware of them, but if you just do a quick scan of this list, maybe you can see some stuff that you're, like oh wow, that would have been interesting from my working group or somewhat related, and these are arranged somewhat or they are alphabetical to the extent I was able to alphabetize and there's a whole second set. So I'll.

T

Let you take a quick look at that, but then you know so we had like 35 projects, I think somewhere in that range. So quite a few little independent bits of work going on anyone can volunteer to lead a project at the hackathon, and one of my asks for you would be as a working group chair to make sure people are aware of this and maybe think about drafts that are in your working group or things that people have brought that you haven't adopted yet and maybe encourage them.

T

If you think it would make sense hey, why don't you go and test some of this stuff out I want you, try something at a hackathon then come back to us with some experience from that and that might help either justify bringing it into the working group or help move the stuff forward.

T

So at the hackathon we at the end, we have project presentations, and these are very brief presentations. We say three minutes or less and it's been getting shorter kind of. Is the number of projects increases, but we're really asking them to focus on what the problem is they're trying to solve how they solve it, but then, primarily on what they learned and something that's really important is that we we try to get them to talk about. How are they going to bring it back into the working group?

T

What is the information that came out of this weekend that they're going to bring back into the working group? So that's one way that we try to tie it back in to what's happening, and so hopefully in your working groups, you're seeing this just a show of hands how many of you have had people in your working group like present what they did at the IETF hackathon?

T

Okay, that's that's a great number to see. Thank you for that. Thank you for putting time into the agenda, I'm hope you're. Finding that a useful use of agenda time and those of you who haven't tried that yet maybe think about if it would be appropriate to do it at a future meeting those project presentations that I mentioned. What we're doing right now is there's a you'll, see an IETF 101 project presentations.

T

If you're that's what we're putting them right now, they're in github, I'm, actually gonna copy them over into the data tracker, because I know not everyone's comfortable or use this github. We don't necessarily like that to be the source of truth, so I'll copy it over, but for during the hackathon we found it a lot easier to use github for this. The other thing we use this github IGF hackathon org for is in case someone doesn't have a home for their code. They can.

T

We can host their code there, so it's just a way for them to get their their code out so that they can work on it collectively.

U

And I have a suggestion. Everything for this is my I. Have a high school daughter and she's taking computer science AP class, so I was just looking at her curricula. I was very proud that the first few chapters about idea and they're asking the kids say if you wanna do TCP just if he doesn't exist. How would you do it right? I thought that was quite interesting, so it'll be nice to have some kind of starter key for those high school kids. Sorry.

D

Some kind of what sorry darling.

U

Oh, like an introduction like how do you get started like so, they can participate remotely in classroom. That would be very good to kind of advocate, IETF work and to the younger generation and for them to be interested. Okay,.

T

You know happy to try to work with you on that on. You know, there's two challenges and I'm, not saying it's a bad idea, but just keep in mind we're thinking about how this is gonna work, but the stuff we work on in the ITF is very broad when I showed all those projects it's over a wide range of stuff. So having any anything, that's gonna, prepare you to work on a wide variety of stuff is very challenging.

T

Also, remote participation is something where we we allow and and I would say we're not very good at it. We don't have much in place to make it super or easy. We use meet echo and that's good for presentations. You can't really just have it up and running for you can't dedicate it to each project. For example, we don't have that ability, so each team I kind of just leave on their own to figure out how to deal with remote participation. It's an area where we could certainly look to make it better right.

T

Now we're not doing a great job.

T

A couple of things we've been added relatively recently. We tried this for the first time at ITF 100, we had space in the in the lounge where people could continue to work on code. You know during the week, of course you can do this anywhere, but we just tried to make it a little bit more convenient by making an identifiable space where, where they could meet and having this signup sheet- and you can see some some sign ups- it's not full, but you can see.

T

Some teams did take advantage of that by signing up, other teams didn't sign up, but just went there anyways. We tried this an at in Singapore and and no one's hiked up, but Alexa told me. Well, we always tried. You know we have this three three meeting rule. So let's try it three times and see what happens. So. This is at least an encouraging thing that people are using it and hopefully, finding I think finding it useful to come together and work around on.

T

You know to find time within their IGF schedule to to work together on code. The other thing we did for the first time was this half demo happy hour, and the idea behind that was anyone who wanted to could demo their project it. We kind of have had done something similar at bits and bytes.

T

Before is you know we no longer have bits and bytes, so the thought was trying to take some of the benefit we had of being able to demo hackathon projects to the whole IETF community and but doing a different kind of lower cost.

T

You know low low overhead type of setup, so it went pretty well, we had eight teams present their their stuff and we actually got a fair number of people coming through. We did overlap a little bit with the sessions and we saw a big uptake once the last session of the day ended and it worked out pretty well. So I think this is something we would probably look to do in the future, but Axel I did want to see.

T

Did anyone have experience here with either the code lounge or this happy hour and have anything they wanted to share yeah.

V

So this is Tomas Elena. We use the code islands quite a bit this time. I didn't I, wasn't aware of it in Singapore I think it's very useful to be able to just go back during the week and do a hackathon mini hackathon kind of motor private I.

V

Think that's that's great, and whether it's the code lounge or whether it's just the room being open and and being able to work there, as is absolutely needed, I think one thing I would say, is I've received emails about who's responsible for this and I, see kind of something's. Really do you? Are you responsible for that?

V

So in the code, lounge wiki I know it's it's it's just an edit button, but but we could have a same as what you have for the hackathon a person, that's responsible kind of a little text of what what is what is.

J

V

Discussed because currently you know one cell, you don't want to put a whole sentence in there. Yes,.

M

Like very cryptic.

V

Okay, no great, we have a work group meeting right now and so we'll we'll use this. You know afternoon to have cold-related extension of that meeting in the collapse. It's very cool, okay, yeah thanks, come.

A

I'm not gonna, run all the way down there, but we actually used the code. Lounge, there's two things: I was gonna, say one. We had a remote participant who was an active part of it and it works. It was a little bit clunky, but it worked really well, but that we use the code lounge because it gave it. We did something original development testing and then we had like a window where the development could continue, and then we came back again for some more testing and Rob testing.

A

So I think it was very helpful to have a spot to go and the other thing you mentioned it earlier that that I wanted to mention was we specifically planned our project because we felt like we'd, reached an impasse in the working group and we were trying to get Pat. We were using it as a strategy to get past an impasse. So I think that is something people want to consider.

T

Okay, well great thing: I'm about it's being used it's. It was very easy because we had the IETF lounge, anyways and, like I, said we're really just taking room there, but it just seems to help by having it identified as such and tries to you know: get people make it a little bit easier for them to find each other, so I think yeah. That's it for my presentation, I'd love to hear any thoughts you have about the things we can and should do at the hackathon to make it more useful for you.

T

If there's things you you wish, we brought up or we you want us to say it, the next one or to remind people or anything like that. I'd love to hear your comments now or whenever you think of them.

N

David Marcus crank it up and suggest a round of applause overturn of participants projects that don't party this doesn't fit on. One slide very well done, keep keep it up. Okay,.

T

T

You know and I do applaud all of all of you and I always I mean the hackathon. It was interesting cuz. The first couple hackathons I had to work really hard to twist people's arms and say: hey. You know this stuff you're doing it I think it would make for a good project. Why don't you come and do this I? Don't really have to do that anymore?

T

It's just people come out of the woodwork with their projects and a lot of that's because of you know the way you guys are dealing with it too, within your working groups and yeah I. Appreciate that anything you can do to encourage it. Even more I think is great and yeah I'm glad it's useful and definitely we plan to keep doing it. So thanks a lot and thanks for the time to run through this.

A

Ok at this part of the agenda, we're at the open, open mic part, which is basically any issues that working group chairs want to discuss and I wanted to start it off with.

A

We is that we would like to set up a design team to look at what we currently have available for working group chairs training, how to reorganize it and how to improve what we've got. There's some material on the website there's. Actually a working group chair resources page on the website, now there's a wiki but there's a lot of information. It's hard to find and I think we sort of have two sets of. We have two objectives.

A

One is sort of the new working group chair coming in what do you need to know to get started as a working group chair and then there's the working group resources just going forward all of the things that you need to use on a regular basis. So I don't know if anybody had any questions or comments or suggestions for the working. Your chairs materials at the moment since I see nobody in the queue line, I'm assuming not oh I, guess they do and if you.

J

Mihai shitin and I mean I wanted to give a shout out to John scatter about his note on our checklist of Ed and saw how to present in rook meeting the topic has been discussed on the mailing list. I see a lot of discussions around it. I think it would be good to expand it to the remaining working groups and really look at that list see how presenters should be preparing the present at the voting booth.

A

Actually, I specifically meant to bring up that example and I forgot I think it was an excellent discussion and it's the kind of thing that I think we can use the working group chairs list to discuss, and then we need to document it somewhere and I know. In general, the routing area has a whole. My understanding is: they have a whole series of of educational materials that they've provided over the years. That would be helpful, possibly to uplevel to them to all.

K

H

A

H

Gen, plus one got that two seconds before me exactly the same: coming: okay,.

A

S

Taylor same thing that question I was going to ask: is a it if we can come up with a generic version that working groups and specialized right, because it was mentioned that there's one or two things that are sort of specific to that particular working group in there that are perhaps more constrained than what you might have well, you could do extra do, y or whatever, which is some a discussion, a list, and so the question is: where should we put such a thing?

S

Because it's not because that the towel is like looked at by new new people coming to get ya not necessary by the presenters and the working group chair of training materials? They looked at my working group, chairs and so I. Don't know what that does idrd you guys put them on your own web page, it's associated with your working group, or how do you actually evangelize stuff to participants?

S

And so that's what I wanted to add, not the participants to presenters, and so that's what I wanted to ask in general what the best practices are is once you have that kind of thing, as we'd like to probably adopt that fair working of what's the best way to make that be available and poke presenters like when you get a request for session, you say: please go and read this page or what do you guys do.

T

Charles I call Smee. This is only a partial answer to this, but something we tried for the first time Sarah. She was in the the hackathon with me, and we were talking about the presentations to do like what people should put in their presentations and actually just creating it. A template that had those things in the airing kinda spelled it out that that helped from me view of getting there their slides together.

T

I, don't know if you'd want to put the information in that tumblin too, but maybe a template combined with something else or or just a template, could could be a good help here.

W

John Scudder um in answer to Dave's question: you know: what do we do yeah when we send out a call for agenda topics that that wiki URL is one of the things and sort of credit the wiki actually came out because I was putting all the guidelines in the call for topics, and it was getting really long so and- and you know, I have to keep finding it and cutting it and pasting it okay.

W

Well, maybe you should put this somewhere else, um so it goes in the call for topics and, like I, said in the email that kicked off the thread. It's it's far from perfect in terms of how much presenters are actually, apparently, you know heating it and taking it to heart, but it's better than nothing. I would be.

W

You know very happy to have you know new ideas for how to get people- and you know there's as one is you know, maybe if we can provide a little bit of a carrot and here's a partially pre-populated slide deck that will save you, some more saving people work is often a good way to get through to pay attention.

F

If I sort of, if I'm a related standpoint, it's time to find them, he did a worker group chairs, wiki or a front page links to the newcomers, training material that we give know if it's part of like tutorials on Sunday as part of the checklist, is here's what we expect before you want to present. It's also useful to say: here's what presenter should know as part of doing their job know things like how are you talking to a microphone up everything.

A

Right there is there's a lot of information out there, but it's really hard to find and it's not well organized and which brings me back to my original point, which is we would love to have this design team to look at it, and we would love that small design team to have a mix of old-timers and newcomers.

A

New new new working group chairs, in particular I, do think the question about where we put what we do have information and sites targeted to newcomers, and we have information and sites targeted to like working group chairs, but regular presenters I am not exactly sure where that would go. So that might be a question, but I do think. There's some. You know useful reminders, the one other things somebody else said that I was thinking about and didn't respond quite quickly enough to was I.

A

Think one of the challenges with developing things like guidelines to working group chairs on any particular topic, is we, as a community tend to want to be really prescriptive and then you get into debates about you know what is the right technique to manage the queue or what is the right technique to to do?

A

Jabber, scribing and I think a lot of times the somebody said you know there's two or three different ways to do this and I think providing the information, but still providing the flexibility for working with chairs to manage their working groups in ways that make most sense for the culture of that particular working group. It's really important.

X

A

X

Sorry I just wanted to add something, because it is realized that we also have a similar document in the education team that we're actually sending out to the tutorial presenters that and Alice helped write at some point and it's available on the edu team wiki. So we might want to take that into account as well and maybe combine it with the document. We're discussing right now that John them and wrote so I'll. Take note of that. Oh yeah.

A

That is true. We do have a document. We sent two presenters for tutorials David, I Dave.

P

Walter Meyer I'm interested in helping with the design team. If you're looking for volunteers, I.

A

Am excellent and.

P

On that note, how how would someone volunteer for that effort? Well,.

A

Probably we're going to send a request on to the mailing on to the working group chair mailing list. What we've been trying to do coming out of these meetings is sort of summarize like our action items, and we actually have like a little working group chairs forum piece of the wiki, where, by the way you can suggest future topics for the working group chairs forum. Somebody told me recently that or I heard through the grapevine recently that that these sessions are becoming boring.

A

So if you all want them to be more interesting, you need to tell us what you want or need. Otherwise, we, you know, we don't need to have the lunches jeff.

F

Has answering my own question: we're taking its a slash about slash participate, but it took a little bit. They came okay.

A

Thank you. um You weren't, you were volunteering like you were a second volunteer right.

A

And with that, and because the queue is empty and it is 114 and we're supposed to end at 1:15. Thank you very much. Do take a look at the materials that are on the website and in the various wiki's and think about how to make it easier and faster for people to find what they need to know. Alright. Thank you all.