►
From YouTube: IETF103-WGCHAIRS-20181107-1235
Description
WGCHAIRS meeting session at IETF103
2018/11/07 1235
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/proceedings/
A
A
A
The
agenda
for
today
is
welcome
note
well
in
administrivia
and
the
following,
RFC
format,
update
Wes
Hart
occurs
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
IETF
guides
program,
utility
of
milestone
documents,
you've
seen
a
discussion
on
the
working
of
chairs
list
about
that.
A
couple
quick
reminders
from
the
Ombuds
team
and
archiving
strategy,
also
that
that
was
on
the
mailing
list
and
then
open
mic.
So
with
that.
B
B
Mostly
because
I
just
feel
like
it,
you
know,
I
was
I,
was
apparently
bored
for
the
last
six
years.
It's
taken
to
get
this
far.
If,
if
this
actually
is,
is
new
to
you,
I'm,
very
sorry
who
are
you
but
the
we
started
this
with
a
whole
bunch
of
interesting
project
calls
and
the
project
has
been
going
on
for
almost
as
long
as
I've
been
RFC
series
editor.
The
goals
of
the
project
are
to
have
XML
as
the
the
unchanging
underlying
format.
This
is
actually
very
common
in
the
publishing
industry.
B
Most
publishers
do
start
with
XML
and
then
just
transform
it
into
whatever
it
needs
to
be
transformed
into.
Xml
is
very
good
about
that.
The
outputs
are
plain
text,
which
means
not
marked
up
no
links
that
kind
of
thing
PDF,
a
3
which
is
the
archival
target,
the
kind
of
things
that
I'll
ship
to
the
National
Library
of
Sweden,
the
Computer
History
Museum,
those
folks
that
are
our
archival
partners
and
can
store
our
stuff
properly
and
HTML.
B
B
The
reason
I
asked
for
some
time
today
is
because
we've
made
a
lot
of
progress
on
this.
Turning
it
from
hey.
Won't
it
be
fun
to
talk
about
it
in
the
community.
No
really.
We
have
tools
that
were
actively
testing
and
in
fact,
probably
one
of
the
the
most
visible
things
that
was
just
released
last
week
is
the
HTML
4
matter
so
for
all
those
people
that
don't
really
care
about
the
specification
per
se
they're,
not
interested
in
how
the
specification
turns
into
yet
another
text,
file,
you're,
probably
more
interested
in
the
HTML.
B
What
that
looks
like
what
it
behaves
like
things
like
that
there
are
a
couple
things
still
in
progress
where
it
says
prep
tool,
think
ID
nits,
that's
that's
still
being
worked
on
and
PDF
a3
output
is
also
still
being
worked
on.
The
goal
is
to
have
all
the
tooling
done
by
the
end
of
this
year,
whereas
that
means
the
developer
will
have
it
all
code
complete
and
at
that
point
it
sits
in
both
community
and
RPC
testing
phases,
so
the
HTML
publication
format.
B
Let's
talk
about
that
a
little
bit
because
honestly
I
expect
that
to
be
what
most
people
end
up
looking
at
from
from
day
to
day.
If
you
would
like
to
play
with
this,
if
you
would
like
to
see
what
this
looks
like
against
your
drafts,
that
the
updated
XML
RFC
has
been
posted
on
the
experimental
page,
so
that
YouTube
can
be
playing
with
this
to
your
heart's
content.
B
And
that
is
a
screenshot
of
what
the
HTML
format
looks
like
on
a
what
I
consider
sort
of
a
regular
widescreen.
What
this
was
my
laptop
with
my
browser
open,
fairly
wide
so
now
you're,
looking
at
not
just
the
HTML
version,
you're,
also
looking
at
the
CSS
that
was
designed
several
years
ago
to
go
along
with
it.
That
said,
if
you
narrow
the
screen
down
quite
a
bit
you'll
see
the
table
of
contents
turns
into
a
a
drop-down
menu.
B
B
So
all
of
that
is
fine
and
good
and
lovely,
but
there's
still
a
couple
details
on
how
to
get
there
from
here.
So
we
friend
in
the
RFC
editor
we're
looking
at
what
it
means
to
transition
from
v2,
where
we
have
essentially
one
input.
One
output
to
v3,
which
for
us
is
one
input
and
a
variety
of
outputs
with
a
lot
more
features.
B
Lean
want
to
spend
more
time
with
the
new
format,
making
sure
that
the
quality
of
what
we're
publishing
is
what
everyone
would
expect.
We
do
want
to
have
a
flag
day
where
we
cut
over
from
v2
output
to
v3
output.
We
don't
think,
having
you
know,
a
a
series
of
10
20,
30
RFC's,
where
they're
intermixed
some
are
purely
v2
and
don't
have
HTML.
B
They
don't
have
PDF
a
3
and
other
RFC's
that
do
having
that
all
mixed
in
sequence
is,
we
don't
think,
is
a
very
good
idea
at
all
and
we
also
want
to
try
and
avoid
having
both
v2
and
v3
in
off
48.
At
the
same
time,
the
RFC
editor
processes
do
change
a
bit.
The
database
changes
the
citation
library
adjusts
a
little
bit
as
well.
So
there's
like
I,
said:
there's
a
lot
of
moving
parts
that
we
are
considering
and
there
are
goals
to
get
right,
there's
different
components
to
the
transition
for
us.
B
Of
course,
there's
the
operations
in
queue
management,
which
is
what
I
think
a
lot
of
you
tend
to
see
from
day
to
day.
There's
the
education,
both
internal
and
external,
making
sure
that
the
staff
themselves
know
how
to
be
working
on
all
of
this,
as
well
as
making
sure
that
the
off
48
instructions
are
clear
for
how
it's
going
to
be
going
forward
and
we're
expecting
a
fair
amount
of
IT
support,
as
people
say.
Wait
what
how
do
you
do
this
again
and
being
able
to
answer
all
those
questions?
It's
going
to
be?
C
B
E
Michael
Richardson
HTML
looks
beautiful
sorry
to
disabuse.
You
I
only
rarely
look
at
HTML
versions
of
draft
myself.
My
the
most
important
thing
turns
out
to
be
RFC
DIF,
because
I
don't
want
to
read
it
all
again
and
I
guess
we
now
have
an
XML
div
that
is
going
to
be
visible
and
I.
Guess
I
think
that
whatever
you
would
like
to
do
to
make
that
more
available
sooner
would
probably
make
people
very
happy
to
say
why
can't
I
be
in
the
v3
process.
E
E
B
G
H
B
B
B
Ok,
so
what
does
this
mean
for
you
as
working
group
chairs
as
people
who
assign
documents
Shepard's,
as
you
work
with
authors,
because
what
we're
looking
at
is
we're
expecting
this
to
really
start
we're
looking
at
production
in
six
to
nine
months?
That
means
a
lot
of
the
drafts
that
you're
working
on
now
are
going
to
be
impacted
by
this,
and
we
need
your
help.
B
These
are
a
series
of
quotes.
You
know
prizes
to
people
who
can
identify
all
of
them
the
using
XML
using
SVG
that
offers
you
so
much
more
flexibility
and
power
in
what
you
do
in
the
documents
thing
you've
had
before
we
can't
we,
the
RFC
editor,
cannot
fix
everything
that
you
might
do
today.
We
know
that
it's
quite
possible
to
do.
If
you
don't
know
how
to
do
tables.
B
You
can't
do
that
anymore,
and
we
are
really
going
to
rely
on
you
for
assistance
to
make
sure
that
semantically,
incorrect
things
aren't
done,
we're
going
to
try
and
capture
them
in
in
the
tooling
as
much
as
we
can,
but
we
need
your
help,
making
sure
that
this
stuff
is
saying
should
I
finish
this
slide
Michael
or
do
you
want
it?
Okay,
and
that
goes
into
the
the
second
item.
Let
me
re-emphasize,
we
need
your
help
in
the
review.
B
There's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
changes,
a
lot
of
how
does
this
read
for
you?
How
does
it
look
for
you?
Did
this
transform
the
way
that
you
expected
it
to,
and
the
editors
will
need
your
help
with
that
and
again.
This
is
something
that
we're
starting
to
look
at,
come
down
the
road
pretty
soon
now
and
will
impact
the
jobs
that
you
probably
are
working
on
today,
Michael
I
had.
E
Two
questions,
so
the
first
is
about
SVG.
So
at
one
point,
I
had
a
duck
draft
and
someone
said
hey:
you
should
try
it
with
the
SVG,
because
this
is
you
have
this
beautiful
picture
and
it
was
even
in
SVG
and
then
we
realized
the
whole
point
of
using
SVG
was
so
that
we
could
color
the
boxes
differently
so
that
we
could
see
them
and
I
went
oh
okay,
that
didn't
work,
so
we
did
it
in
ASCII,
oh,
and
that
kind
of
we
went
back
to
there.
E
E
B
B
E
So
so
it
may,
it
may
for
initially
be
the
case
that
working
group
chairs
may
have
to
pull
down
xml
and
run
it
through
the
tool
chain,
somehow
2z.
What
what
whether
it's
going
to
look
and
it
sounds
like
the
transition
you're
telling
me
it
sounds
to
me
like
it's
gonna
happen
within
the
next
six
to
ten
months,
and
so,
if
we
have
a
document
that
is
in
you
know,
o
and
we
expect
go
to
last
call
next
summer,
it's
probably
gonna
wind
up
in
the
new
thing
we
better.
B
I
B
Don't
necessarily
know
that
it
would
be
a
good
idea,
because
I
think
there's
still
a
lot
of
concern
about
how
SVG
would
display
in
the
plain
text,
and
so
if
it
would
end
up
being
no,
you
really
need
to
look
at
the
HTML
for
this
yeah
I
guess
it
could
work.
It
just
doesn't
seem
like
how
it
should
work.
Okay,
Jim
is
shaking
his
head,
so
I'm
gonna,
I'm
gonna.
Also
let
him
try
me
on
this
really.
K
L
B
B
N
Actually,
first
of
all
for
Alice's
thing
you
can
put
ASCII
art
in
today
and
if
point,
in
fact,
if
you
want
or
in
the
new
b3
format,
if
in
point
of
fact,
you
want
to
actually
get
that
artwork
displayed
in
a
text
file,
you
will
need
to
do
both
the
SVG
and
some
sort
of
ASCII
version
as
well,
because
SVG
will
not
render
at
all
into
text
now.
The
reason
I'm
actually
got
up
here,
I'm
starting
a
new
document
and
I-
want
to
be
really
foolish.
N
D
N
David
black
to
ask
about
all
48
transition,
as
I
think
I
saw
a
note
in
previous
slide.
That
said,
you
didn't
want
to
run
the
48
on
both
formats.
At
the
same
time,
working
group
chairs
know
that
that
48
hours
is
a
goal.
Sometimes
we
meet
it
and
sometimes
it
means
48
days
and
still
it's
still
counting.
N
B
Do
know
something
like
that's
going
to
happen.
We're
going
to
look
to
a
certain
amount
of
working
group,
chair,
held
to
say,
okay,
make
this
go
faster,
make
this
move,
because
we
want
this
out
of
queue
if
necessary,
we
can
discuss
having
the
editors
help
shift
this
from
a
V
to
thing
to
of
III
thing.
N
O
Barbara
stark
yeah
along
that
line,
I
mean
one
of
the
main
reasons.
I
see
things
kind
of
hanging
out
and
the
queue
is
waiting
for
a
reference
and
I
know
for
a
fact
that
we've
got
some
things
hanging
around
waiting
for
a
reference.
It's
right
now.
You
know
in
working
group
last
call-
and
you
know
this.
B
O
B
B
N
N
F
I
was
actually
going
to
respond
to
Jim's
question
when
he
was
at
the
mic
before
on
uploading,
the
text
or
HTML
or
even
PDF
versions
of
the
draft.
When
you
don't
have
it
the
version
of
the
XML
that
the
data
tracker
can
ingest
and
automatically
convert
for.
You
sure,
there's
no
problem
in
doing
that,
but
I
suspect
by
the
time
we
get
to
the
point
where
you
would
want
to
you.
F
Q
Rick
Tyler
on
the
SPG
subject:
I've
done
a
little
playing
with
SPG
over
the
years.
It's
a
fantastic
tool,
it's
brilliant
I
mean
you
can
embed
JavaScript,
you
can
do
dynamic
transitions
and
animations
and
it's
all
valid
SVG
is
valid.
Tiny
SVG
I
thought
was
my
question:
are
you
you're
specifying
tiny
profile?
Are
you.
B
Q
J
B
B
R
B
S
Move
on
yeah
I
understand
that
everybody's
young
tree
models
on
the
mind
there
are
about
50
other
things
that
you
want
to
generate.
Svg
from
or
even
just
this
sauce
takes
whatever.
So
most
of
us
actually
have
to
change
that
generate
what
what
you
get
to
see
and,
of
course,
these
two
trains
also
need
to
migrate,
and
one
aspect
of
migrating
is
just
getting
them
to
work
with
v3,
which
I
think
were
really
easy,
but
the
other
interesting
part
is
actually
making
use
of
the
capabilities
in
a
good
way.
S
So,
for
instance,
anybody
will
ever
send
a
pic.
It
uses
MSC
gen
to
make
figures,
but
if
there
is
a
canonical
way
to
put
a
message
and
input
into
authoring
schemes,
then
then
we
publish
I
agree
on
how
to
do
that,
so
that
two
different
authors
that
come
together
to
write
something
if
you
can
write
a
message
and
that
the
other
guy
can
also
process
and
so
on.
S
So
there's
a
lot
of
infrastructure
on
the
authoring
side
that
we
have
to
invent
in
the
next
year
or
so,
and
the
reason
I
came
up
here
is
just
to
point
out.
There
is
one
focal
point
for
doing
that:
development,
which
was
the
RFC
markdown
mailing
list,
and
it's
not
just
about
markdown.
It's
actually
about
the
authoring
chain
and
I
expect
that
people
will
post
experiences
with
their
favorite
authoring
chains
for
generating
for
SVG
for
generating
markdown
on
that.
S
B
P
T
T
B
I
do
think
it
is
an
interesting
challenge
for
consuming
the
documents,
one
of
the
things
that
when
I
was
first
putting
this
idea
together,
is
to
just
put
in
there
a
note
saying
if
you
want
to
see
this
diagram,
you
have
to
go
over
there
in
some
cases.
That
may
be
fine,
because
it
may
be
purely
example
and
not
necessary.
The
text,
in
other
cases,
you're
right,
I,
think
that's
terrible,
but
I
don't
see
a
way
around
it
and.
T
U
Alright
I'm
here
to
talk
about
the
ietf
guidance
program,
hopefully
I'm,
covering
what
Karen
wanted
me
to
cover
we'll
find
out.
So
a
couple
of
quick
things.
First
of
all,
I'm
gonna
give
a
brief
introduction
on
what
it
is
and
then
tell
you
sort
of
the
changes
that
occurred
somewhat
recently
in
the
last
year
or
two.
But
the
the
purpose
of
the
IETF
guides
program
is
to
really
introduce
newcomers
to
the
IETF
and
a
gentle
graceful,
friendly,
kind
of
way
and
importantly,
to
encourage
participation.
One
of
the
things.
U
If,
if
you
were
like
me,
when
you
joined
the
IETF,
you
probably
didn't
speak
for
a
while.
You
probably
didn't
interact
much
for
a
while,
so
we're
trying
to
increase
that
participation
at
a
quicker
rate
and
and
to
educate
people
about
how
the
IETF
works,
how
the
IETF
process
works
and
how
the
IETF
culture
works,
because,
as
you
know,
we're
a
little
different
than
many
other
organizations.
U
This
program
really
consists
of,
and
I
should
mention.
I
am
one
of
the
co-chairs.
I've
been
really
called
a
co-leader.
We
don't
have
a
really
good
title
me
and
Neil's
10
overs
is
the
other
one
we've
we
take
it
on.
We
dual
purpose
the
role,
so
it
consists
of
two
really
two
parts.
It
consists
of
the
IETF
guides
that
used
to
be
called
the
mentoring
program.
It
used
to
be
called
IETF
Mentors.
U
We
received
feedback
that
mentors
the
the
new
participants
were
expecting
a
whole
lot
more,
almost
to
be
handheld
through
all
of
the
working
groups,
so
he
changed
the
name,
this
IETF
to
guides
just
to
give
them
a
better
sense
of
some
resource
that
they
can
go
to,
and
the
guides
program
is
really
sort
of
a
one
on
one
kind
of
a
sign,
help
and
early
introduction.
Those
guides
meet
with
their
new
with
their
partner
newcomer
on
Sunday
and
give
them
an
introduction
about
idea.
U
Ietf
works,
so
internet
drafts
work
all
that
kind
of
stuff
answer
any
sort
of
questions.
Then
it's
really
somebody
to
greet
you
face
to
face.
We
train
partner
people
that
can,
you
know,
arrive
on
your
the
same
day
before
the
ATF
starts.
The
other
half
of
the
program
is
the
quick
connections
which
you
may
or
may
not
have
heard
of.
It
runs
every
Sunday
night
and
it's
sort
of
like
if
you
took
speed
dating
and
you
crossed
it
with
the
ITF
guidance
program.
You
end
up
with
quick
connections.
U
U
We
need
volunteers
and
you
know
to
be
perfectly
honest:
the
working
group
chairs
are
perfect
candidates
for
volunteering.
We
always
get
more
signups
than
we
do
guides.
We
often
pair
a
couple
of
people
they're
willing
with
multiple
people,
but
the
reality
is.
Is
it
doesn't
take
that
much
time
you
get
to
meet
new
people
in
the
process
and
you
really
get
to
increase
participation.
U
We
try
and
match
people
with
both
language
and
where
they're
from
as
well
as
topics
of
interest,
it's
not
possible
100%
of
the
time,
but
if
we
want
the
IETF
to
succeed
right
if
we
want
to
keep
pushing
new
documents
and
new
paths
forward,
we've
got
to
get
participation
increasing.
Otherwise,
if
we
don't
get
newcomers
coming
in
and
actively
participating,
eventually,
this
organization
will
go
away.
U
We
also
need-
and
so
this
is
my
plea
to
all
of
you-
we
really
need
to
create
a
positive
environment
in
every
working
group,
so
people
are
encouraged
to
participate
and
it's
not
easy.
You
know
many
of
us
have
been
around
for
many
years
and
the
reality
is
I
had
in
fact
I'm
late
to
this
meeting
because
of
newcomers
talking
to
me
about
how
they
have
a
hard
time
approaching
some
working
groups
in
helping
they
do
they
either
don't
know
what
to
do.
U
You
may
hear
more
about
that
for
me
tonight
at
the
plenary,
because
it
turns
out
that,
especially
in
some
groups,
it's
a
real
problem.
So
the
best
thing
that
you
can
do
is
is
even
just
at
the
end
of
the
meeting
say:
are
there
any
newcomers
that
Wistar
participates
because
they
don't
even
know
that
reviewing
a
draft
is
so
important
right?
They
don't
know
that
even
finding
grammatical-
and
you
know
edit
some
things
like
that-
is
incredibly
valuable
and
so
I
had
people
come
up
to
me.
I,
don't
know
how
to
get
started.
U
So
I'd
suggest
you
know
being
able
to
ask.
Are
there
any
newcomers
that
you
know
wish
to
participate
and
then
and
then
tell
them
we're
where
work
as
needed?
You
guys
are
the
experts
there.
You
know
which
drafts
are
in
review,
which
drafts
are,
you
know,
need
the
most
attention
right
now,
which
ones
don't
have
enough
editors,
which
ones
don't
have
enough.
People
contributing
texts
and
ideas,
there's
actually
a
whole
bunch
of
people
that
want
to
help.
N
What
a
comment
just
occurred
to
me
in
th
vwg,
we
have
taken
david
black
t,
VG,
we've
taken
to
putting
up
a
slide.
That
said,
please
review
documents
that
I
think
I
think
it
comes
very
shortly
after
the
note
well
slide.
Let
me
suggest
that
we
produce
a
version
of
the
note
well
deck
that
contains
a
note,
well
slide,
plus
a
please
review
slide.
That
includes
a
little
bit
of
encouragement
to
newcomers,
and
then
we
can
just
all
start
using
that
everywhere.
Yeah.
U
N
V
Thank
you
just
a
couple
minutes
rate
of
things,
the
first.
How
long
do
you
expect
this
to
take?
I'll
go,
have
so
pretty
fast,
okay
and
then
the
second
is
these.
These
are
mended
right,
yeah,
okay,
excellent,
thank
you.
Okay,
I
wanted
to
get
some
feedback
from
working
group
chairs
about
working
group,
milestones
and
dates,
and
and
utility
of
the
dates
in
particular.
V
Okay,
so
go
ahead
and
feel
free
to
hop
up
to
microphone
as
soon
as
you
see
something
you
want
to
talk
about.
The
first
question
is:
what
value
do
the
milestones
serve?
This
actually
feedback.
We
got
on
the
working
group
chairs
list,
it's
you
know.
So
it's
a
list
deliverables,
it's
a
tool
for
the
chairs
to
use
to
manage
the
working
group.
It's
a
mechanism
for
communication
between
the
chair
is
an
area
director
to
say
what
things
are
supposed
to
be
coming
out.
V
These
are
apparently
on
controversial
enough
that
everyone's
still
sitting,
so
what
value
to
the
dates
themselves
serve.
So
one
of
the
things
is
been
pointed
out
is
that
external
entities
might
use
these
for
planning,
although
in
practice
they
probably
learned
pretty
quickly
that
they
shouldn't
I,
just
the
the
fact
that
most
of
our
milestones
end
up
getting
pretty
quickly
out
of
date
and
aren't
really
kept
up
to
date.
V
After
that,
I
have
had
an
area
director
say
that
they
have
successfully
used
them
in
at
least
one
case
to
to
dry
working
progress
to
actually
check
in
with
the
terrors
and
asked
you
know.
Are
you
on
track
to
make
this
date,
so
apparently
they
can
be
used
for
that,
it's
probably
more
the
exception
than
the
rule.
O
Stark
so
as
someone
who
works
in
a
lot
of
places
that
are
not
the
ietf
other
organizations,
my
input
is
everybody
has
the
same
issue
out
there.
It
does
not
cause
harm
to
the
reputation
of
the
IETF.
In
my
opinion,
it
can
cause
issues
for
those
external
entities
and,
in
my
opinion,
that's
sort
of
their
problem.
If
they're
really
interested
in
it,
they
there
are
ways
of
more
closely
tracking.
You
know
just
go.
Look
at
the
working
group.
It's
online,
it's
public!
Look
at
the
state.
The
document
is
in
that
you're
interested
in
now.
W
David
scanners,
II,
so
I
became
a
working
group
chair
a
little
over
a
year
ago
and
when
I
did
our
so
the
DNS
SD
is
a
working
group.
The
milestones
were
all
in
the
past
and
some
of
them
it
was
easy.
I
could
say.
Oh
we
that's
done
check
who
the
other
one
was.
I
should
put
a
date.
That's
not
negative
on
here,
but
I.
Don't
know
what
to
put
so
I'll
deal
with
this
tomorrow.
It's
been
a
year.
W
V
Justin
Dean
I
have
had
a
similar
experience
with
falling
behind
on
certain
draft
States
or
drafts
that
aren't
getting
a
lot
of
action
and
I.
Imagine
a
lot
of
you
are
like
me,
where
you're
not
always
working
on
IETF
stuff
and
then
it
just
kind
of
phase
in
the
background.
I
would
really
like
the
data
tracker
to
send
me
to
be
able
to
set
it
up.
So
there's
send
me
updates
at
my
discretion
if
I
say
this
gonna
be
in
the
state
for
two
weeks.
V
Send
me
an
email
in
two
weeks
remind
me
and
then
keep
sending
me
that
email
until
I
take
care
of
it.
I
think
that
would
be
an
automatic
motivation
for
me
to
remind
myself
hey.
This
is
still
there.
I
may
need
to
get
it
done
instead
of
having
to
proactively
go
to
the
data
tracker
and
look
at
what
I
have
to
do
and
figure
out
what
it
is
and
I
think
that
would
help
a
lot
in
terms
of
automatically
getting
people
to
update
themselves.
X
Y
Ben
Campbell
speaking
as
an
individual
there's,
an
effort
in
creating
the
dates
for
a
few
people
with
effort
in
maintaining
the
dates,
obviously
not
for
everybody
effort
for
no
purpose
its
harm,
and
then
the
second
ones,
just
from
a
personal
perspective,
is
when
I've
been
in
working
group.
Chair
and
I
was
responsible
for
a
whole
bunch
of
dates
that
were
out
I
found
it
stressful
I
didn't
do
much
about
it,
but
I
kind
of
found.
It
vaguely
embarrassing
and
my
general
viewpoints
there
is,
if
we're
not
getting
a
lot
of
utility
out
of
them.
Y
Publishing
incorrect
information
is
a
negative
I,
don't
know
if
I
would
qualify
harm,
but
it's
a
negative
and
it
would
be
better
to
not
publish
them.
If
we're
going
to
publish
incorrect
information,
if
we're
going
to
make
something
useful
out
of
them
or
change
them
into
something
fuzzier,
we're
calling
them
correct
or
incorrect.
It's
a
little
bit
unclear.
That's
probably
fine,
but
just
putting
dates
out
there
that
no
one
cares
about.
Everyone
knows
that
are
wrong.
It
seems
like
a
waste
of
bit.
B
Heather
Flanagan
individual
contributor,
I
partly
agree
with
Ben
bad
data-
is
worse
than
no
data
from
someone
who
often
works
with
implementers
and
people
who
don't
go
to
IETF
meetings
having
something
they're
either
the
road
map,
style
or
dates
is
actually
helpful
to
for
for
them
to
know.
Okay
is
this
being
worked
on?
Can
I
expect
anything
coming
out
of
this
any
time
soon,
and
they
don't
necessarily
have
time
to
sift
through
an
entire
mailing
list
for
that
they're
not
here
to
develop
the
standards
they're
here
to
purely
to
consume.
B
U
G
Z
C
Q
S
Gastineau
and
some
of
the
utility
is
actually
in
the
relative
information
that
emerge.
So
this
gives
you
so
somebody
is
trying
to
do
this
first
and
the
other
thing
next,
so
I
think
that
that's
an
important
utility
I
wouldn't
want
to
lose.
When
looking
at
another
working
group,
the
reputational
damage
we
get,
we
get
from
not
being
able
to
keep
our
promises
and
whether
we
publish
these
promises
in
a
milestone
list
or
in
an
email
to
another.
Sto
that
says
this
will
be
done
by
the
end
of
this
year.
Doesn't
make
a
difference.
P
O
V
P
Run
Gondwana
again,
you
heard
from
the
room
how
much
this
room
appreciates
the
idea
of
being
held
accountable
to
anything,
but
I
would
argue
that
a
bad
plan
is
better
than
no
plan.
Maybe
bad
data
is
worse
than
no
data,
but
a
bad
plan
is
better
than
no
plan
and
that
these
dates
are
a
plan
and
their
documentation
of
a
plan
and
some
kind
of
accountability
and
to
take
them
away
because
we're
not
being
accountable
is
kind
of
the
opposite
of
a
goal.
P
It's
each
set,
throwing
your
hands
up
and
saying
well
we're
incapable
of
doing
it.
So,
let's
not
try
and
I
disagree
with
that,
but
better
off
s,
I
said
argument
said
updating
our
milestones.
If
there
are
milestones
in
the
past
that
we
haven't
hit,
then
that
is
a
time
for
the
working
group
chairs
and
the
working
group
to
look
at
it
and
set
new
milestones,
not
to
say
we
can't
put
that
on
milestones.
P
AA
They're
given
I
think
there's
actually
a
little
bit
of
information,
also
that
if
it's,
if
there's
some
item,
is
in
three
months
away,
it's
probably
very
quick,
even
if
it
was
put
three
months
in
for
one
like
many
bits
but
and
if
you
add,
might
put
two
more
two
years
in
forward.
You
know
they
speak
a
hard
issue
that
requires
time.
So
how
much
is
you
have
been
working
on?
Some
item
is
actually
how
much
further
further
away
we
put.
Some
item
is
also
important.
So
indication
of
tax
task
complexity,
it's.
W
A
good
point
thanks
David
scan
Ozzie
from
the
previous
comments.
Remember
in
the
room,
it
sounds
like
we
don't
all
use
the
muscles
the
same
way
and
we
don't
all
agree
on
how
to
use
them
or
how
important
the
dates
are.
So
maybe
having
the
option
for
some
people
to
have
dates.
Some
people
do
not
have
dates.
Some
people
have
thinner.
Karate
might
be
a
way
for
it
that
works
for
everyone.
It
wouldn't
be
the
same
in
all
working
groups.
That
could
be
a
bad
thing,
but
maybe
that's
the
sweet
spot.
Okay,.
V
All
right,
I
think
we
actually
gotten
to
pretty
much
everything
that
I
wanted
to
get
to
on
that
on
that
first
like
so,
we
wind
the
rest
of
the
other
slides.
So
thank
you
very
much.
The
input
I'll
be
trying
to
sort
of
synthesize
this
into
a
concrete
proposal
and
taking
it
to
the
working
group
chairs
list
in
a
bit
thanks.
D
Howdy
folks,
so
I
come
up
here,
because
there
have
been
some
things
that
have
come
up
on
the
Ombuds
team
recently
and
I
thought.
It
would
be
useful
to
remind
you
that
there
are
certain
things
we
don't
want
to
do
and
certain
things
that
you
can
do
to
help
that
don't
involve
us.
So
you
have
a
lot
of
levers
to
pull
when
someone's
being
a
jerk
in
the
context
of
a
working
group.
D
You
can
always
take
the
mic
away
from
someone.
You
can
always
ban
them
from
a
mailing
list.
Those
are
extreme,
but
you
can
also,
as
chair,
say,
hey
stop
that
you're
being
a
jerk.
This
is
useful
both
from
the
keeping
the
working
group
moving
along
and
getting
their
work
done,
but
also
from
other
participants
who
we
were
just
talking
about
newcomers
who
might
be
put
off
by
someone
being
a
jerk,
even
if
they
are
not
the
direct
target
of
that
jerkiness.
D
We
are
as
an
Ombuds
team,
glad
to
help
out.
If
you
need
some
advice
on
how
to
do
so,
we
are
glad
to
intervene
if
it
gets
personal,
but
we
kind
of
separate
the
if
someone's
interfering
in
the
working
group
process
in
public.
That's
a
chair
thing
to
handle,
if
someone's
doing
something
interpersonally,
especially
off
list.
A
Okay,
so
the
next
one
on
the
list
is
archiving
strategy
and
I.
Just
put
all
up
here.
I
know
that
there
was
a
conversation
started
on
the
mailing
list
and
a
couple
other
issues
have
come
up
related
to
this,
and
so
my
question
for
discussion
is:
is
there
such
a
thing
as
archiving
too
much
do?
What
do
we
need
to
archive
on?
A
What
do
we
not
need
to
archive,
and
in
particular
I
was
curious
about,
for
example,
recordings
associated
with
virtual
interims,
because
they're
currently
recorded
in
a
number
of
different
tools,
so
I
meant
to
look
up
who
started
the
conversation
on
the
mailing
list
and
I?
Don't
remember
who
it
was
so
I
was
hoping
that
we
could
just
have
a
short
conversation
on
what
we
thought
about
archiving,
and
is
there
such
a
thing
as
too
much.
O
O
A
F
E
Michael
Richardson,
so
until
recently,
the
WebEx
recordings
required
some
windows
program
to
play
them
back
and
convert
them
and
I
tried
this
once
it
was
like
a
3d
long
thing
to
transcribe
an
hour-long
meeting
and
I
just
seemed
useless
to
me,
because
it
was
basically
because
it
needed
to
coordinate
all
the
who
said
what
and
this
input
and
that
input
and
I
sort
of
like
wow.
Now
my
impression
is
they
come
out
as
MPEG
video,
but
maybe
I'm
alone.
E
A
A
E
Spin
up
the
cloud
and
get
it
to
do
this
for
us,
but
but
until
without
that
kind
of
thing
my
feeling
is
they're
completely
useless.
Okay
and
but
there's
two
other
points,
you
can't
hit
the
record
button
unless
you
have
the
Java
version
running
on
your
desktop.
So
if
you're
leading
something
from
something,
not
a
Windows
computer,
you
can't
even
start
the
recording.
If
you
decide
to
have
a
virtual
interim
with
something
a
little
less
more
stable
than
WebEx,
then
you
may
or
may
not
have
archiving
or
recording
either.
E
F
Robert
I
was
going
to
suggest
even
for
the
working
group
sessions
at
the
plenary
meetings
that
we
have
right
now.
We're
we're
keeping
the
recordings
forever
and
I
would
propose
that.
That
is
a
mistake
and
is
in
fact
putting
us
organizationally
at
more
risk
than
a
lot
of
us
would
believe,
and
we
should
consider
putting
a
timeout
on
how
long
we
keep
recordings.
F
F
That
is
to
make
sure
that
we
can
follow
up
and
get
the
work
done,
while
the
recording
is
still
timely,
relevant
and
but
but
past
that
point,
the
minute
should
be
good
enough
to
serve
the
purpose,
and
we
don't
want
to
leave
ourselves
in
a
position
where
we
run
ourselves
a
foul
later
of
some
new
variant
of
the
right
to
be
forgotten,
laws
that
causes
massive
amounts
of
scrambles
to
go,
destroy
or
edit
or
whatever.
These
huge
data
sets
that
we've
gathered.
O
Barber
Stark,
and
so
one
thing
that
you
might
consider
is
in
this.
The
download
I'm
talking
about
is
the
draft
of
the
interim
meeting
minutes
or
agenda
and
in
the
draft
agenda
it
says,
hit
the
button
if
that
were
removed.
That
would
cause
a
lot
less
confusion,
if
there's
nothing
being
done
with
the
recording,
because
so,
if
just
the
sentence
of
remember
to
hit
that
recording
button
were
removed,
that
would
be
useful
right.
AB
A
Robert,
so
he
might
get
back
in
a
queue
I'm,
putting
myself
in
the
queue
with
apologies,
I
think,
especially
for
the
virtual,
in
terms
that
it
we're
keeping
a
lot
of
stuff
and
I
would
switch
over
to
like
the
newcomers
like
we
do
to
what
new
comer
webinars,
plus
a
newcomers
tutorial
at
every
single
IETF.
You
know
so
now
we
have
three
times
nine
recordings
for
a
year
of
basically
the
same
material,
so
I
just
think.
Perhaps
we
should
keep
less
go
ahead.
Robert.
F
AB
AB
AB
S
V
I'm
gonna
agree
with
Lou
I
think
it's
at
least
for
the
working
groups
of
a
pretty
bad
idea
to
delete
the
recordings
and
just
keep
minutes,
because
minutes
often
have
errors
in
them
and
I've
used
recordings
multiple
times
in
the
past,
to
clarify
what
was
in
the
minutes
and
correct
them
and
update
them.
Because
people
in
the
past
had
differing
opinions
about
what
was
said
and
the
recording
for
the
definitive
proof
of
what
was
said.
Okay,.
A
I
mean
this
is
obviously
not
the
group
that
can
resolve
this
question,
but
we
wanted
some
feedback
to
take
it
to
those
who
can
with
that.
It's
actually
138
we're
three
minutes
past
time
so
I'm
going
to
we
can.
We
can
take
the
open
mic
session
to
the
mailing
list.
Please
take
your
lunches
with
you
and
clear
the
room
expeditiously,
so
the
next
set
of
people
can
get
in
here.