Internet Engineering Task Force 103, 7 Nov 2018

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From YouTube: IETF103-JMAP-20181107-1350

Description

JMAP meeting session at IETF103
2018/11/07 1350

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/103/proceedings/

A

Forge a map you can read your mail, which seems to be one or two people in the back doing that so.

B

Wait, this is the agenda that we came up with a rough overview of what we're planning to do in the next. While it's just anything else want to add now's a good time to hop up and throw that in there Chuck the blue sheet off to Bernie yeah.

B

All right, I sent an email about the the red chartering list and I've got that here to pop up on screen. So we can discuss it when we get to that.

B

Let's start with stealin and Jeff cloth.

C

Is this the one yeah okay, well, I'm hoping this is actually probably quicker than we had on the agenda. I'm just gonna give a quick status, update, I, guess so. J map core is in last call has been for a while, and we plan to finish that on 16th. So about a week after this ayah TF conference finishes have been small revisions since since ITF 102, but mainly its editorial, fixes, I've gone through and made sure all the JSON now passes and isn't full of syntax errors and they fix some grammatical.

C

Knits and people have sent small amounts of feedback which have been incorporated, such as making account ID explicit, rather than letting it be optional because they make it changed. What was the default on the server? You could get very confused as a client and added some state management, so copy and import are consistent with set. We've got a couple of implementations out there in Syrus in C and X, which is a pearl implementation and Patrick James of implantation as well. A slightly older version of the specter.

C

Now, there's no open issues on github and so basically we're just waiting for any more final reviews from people coming in I know a few more people are reading, as back at the moment. Well, hopefully see that on the list over the next few days, again, I'm not expecting any major issues. Just again small speck nips grammatical changes, things that need to be clarified and then hopefully, yeah sixteenth will close and submit to the next step.

C

So I guess this stage just wanted to see if anyone in the room had any queries, comments or concerns about J map core or is everyone happy? That is probably reasonable summary and we could continue on that.

C

D

Answer to my question, but I'll ask it anyway, so J map core is used as a base for mail and calendaring and other things does. It needs to be held to be validated by more than Java J map mail.

D

Just to see that you know we, it contains the right amount of information and sufficiently independent element.

C

Well, what turns what you mean by validation? I mean we we've certainly got experience using a number of different contexts that aren't mail. Quite a few I think what has happened is it's it's in terms of the two specs. They very much become data model in mail, which is just like the objects, I think or is all the kind of methods and synchronization primitive, assert and stuff, and that that seems to be very clean separation, I, don't so.

D

C

D

Happy with the primitives that it's sufficiently extensible I.

C

Would say so, yes, I and we've got a quad we've experienced, find that with various different veins contacts, calendars files, Oh different app, that's none of those things all.

B

Right it sucks what.

C

B

Every additional thing can also extend Jarek or with with what it needs you.

C

Know Jenna.

B

Cause a base that it can build upon, but it doesn't have to use the same methods yeah.

C

We'd, like Derek cord, have alder exactly yeah. We want a damage called have all the generic stuff in, but we're pretty confident that it does at this point and there will be other extension. Do you put on top for specific things, but yeah I think that separation was reasonably good.

E

So basically, I wanted to raise.

E

You can have some requests that span several account ID, for instance, if I'm doing some text search in the mailbox and I wish to aggregate results across different accounts, for example in case of main share, and the current model with a quantity does not hold this. So I think that is a point that might need to be discussed as part of Jim at core I assume, which is not specific to email object. That's why I raised the point I.

C

Put in a slide to discuss this after your email this morning, I actually put it as part of mail, but maybe it's a discussion with core. Let's move on to jackal mail and then we'll get to the slide about that and we'll talk about it then yeah.

C

So j-mac mail, the other spec, is basically same status, had small revisions, but I think it's in a very good shape. Last call finishes. At the same time again, there have been at least three implementations. I know of various versions of the spec as it has developed. Cyrus is the one that's most up-to-date with the current and it's fully up to date with the current spec.

C

The other two are based on older versions, but I think we have got significant implementation experience, especially for a spec at this stage, again no open issues on github so awaiting any final Nicks and reviews on the mailing list or elsewhere, and then we'll move them on on 16th November. So again, are there any specific comments or queries or concerns about mail, no cool, all right. So if we go into the next slide, this is the point that my raised.

C

So it's an interesting question.

C

In J map you have accounts as a kind of isolation unit, so everything happens generally within an account and you can copy.

B

Data between accounts.

C

But, like you don't have the same. Consistency guarantees like IDs must be unique within an account. You can kind of lock the account as you're making a change. You have an old state in new state. No only your changes happen within that and to make this scalable across not lots of users and stuff. This is a really nice property.

C

At the same time as a user, you can, you might be given access to multiple accounts, for example, if I'm sharing my mail with Ron, he might be able to see mail for my account as well. So the issue was raised is, if you want to present some single view of stuff between different accounts like a unified inbox. What's the best way to achieve this now? One way you could do this is just to aggregate in the client. You make a query to both the accounts.

C

Take the data you merge virtually to show it, but for some clients they may want to put this on the server instead of me, it's so that they can be simpler. So, what's the best way to achieve this, so I came up with a couple of ideas which I put on the on the main. This one is just to simply set up your server so that the users the do share stuff of all within a single account, but that loses you various properties that make that a pain, I, don't think. That's actually a good solution.

C

As the start you'd have named flashes. You know if you both want to mingle in box, but they're in the same account. Well, that's a clash, so you couldn't have that so doesn't really work having two different users stuff share that so I guess. The other solution, then, is: do we want some way for the server to aggregate this data from the different accounts? Is this best as an extension? Is this something that's very generic and any ideas or comments on this I guess Kurt.

F

Anderson I think the problem here is that it is conflating the user experience with the implementation details that I might have accounts on multiple servers, not to mention multiple services, each of which have multiple servers and want a unified view in some sort of a client. There is absolutely no way that the SPAC can say: oh yeah, let's let's just aggregate the world and give you one view and so I don't think we should try absolutely.

C

I mean the that was my initial view and that's why we I always presumed a client would do this. If you need to do so, it could do the same across accounts. Why it's not in that, but there is still a use case potentially on a single server where you know, which does have access to both yeah I guess. Is this worth addressing I I think to be clear: if we did, it would definitely be an extension. This doesn't seem something that's integral to the spec as a whole.

C

I think it would be something that a service could add support for if they wanted I guess. The question is: is there enough interest in actually defining that as an extension, or is there something that it's best left to the client or a custom extension for particular vendors Alex.

D

He's speaking from the floor at the moment, sure how this extension is going to look like so I think.

C

It would be somebody.

C

That's fair point: I mean I, think you would basically just be for querying. It wouldn't be accurate anything else and I guess. Instead of returning a list of ID's you'd, get something like a list of account: ID tuples back in an object's per yeah.

C

G

Is John Levine? It doesn't sound like we have this. It sounds like this is very far for me fully baked and my suggestion would be like go build a sham or something that actually does it and you.

B

G

And if it, if it turns out to be useful, you.

B

G

Better than the way and the better than the way I became uae's, let you query multiple sources, then you should think about adding it. Yeah.

C

Okay, I think I'm, not gonna, spend why I think this is kind of thing for you, as you know, you've got the use case. Do you wanna yeah.

E

He may concern with having separate query on different accounts is that we lost the salt and filtering the relevance of results basically well.

C

You would have the sort like if you query two different ones, but with the same sort, you can obviously interleave the two results by just comparing that small set of results together, which would get them to the right sort. Two.

E

Lists or more lists that are here that are ordered so doing the order but like if you do text search, then it's not easy to necessarily have the score whatsoever to be doing the ordering on the train side.

B

To fetch, whatever the ordering properly wasn't, yes,.

C

E

Even solution is just returned: yeah.

E

C

Sounds to me a lot like search snippets in that it's a extra data item. That only applies to the thing within the context of the search, and so you could definitely yeah just add an extension or something to fetch that relevant score, but you're talking about for your search, get search relevant, sir, so they get social snippets and that would then yes give you the information. You need to do this on the client. That might be a lot simpler than trying to do this application thing. So cool well, I. Think then terms of.

B

We had a thing called ex-con multi-source, which is an IMAP extension and it returns a list of folder names that the messages are in at the start, and then it returns a list of tuples which are UID and a number into that. Folder named lists for each item, which is, is basically that tuples of account ID.

C

B

Deal with in the account and that worked fine, obviously it's a much more complex data formats being transferred across the wire and it only works if all the accounts are on the same server.

C

Yeah, it doesn't matter I, don't think that sounds like that, something that's particularly worth standardizing or.

G

Just a general comment that, given this house cut, a complex aspect is already I really would be happy to have. Some of you say here is running here's here's some running code that we can work on. Particularly for this. You know you can happen your server, you could, you could mock it up as a ship yeah, it's it seems, it seems to me like, like write, write, write some code and bring it back to us, and if we like it we'll say grateful a bit yeah.

C

I mean III, think I seen three general consensus here that this is definitely not part of the core spec or a general thing. It's a extra edition that could be added on, and so it would be an extension and yeah. At this point, the best thing is yeah perhaps been why, if you have want to write up how you think it should work, whether that's just fetching the relevance with the search or whether it's something that aggregates results, you know there's completely different options, but if then, then we can also you look at that.

C

That's a group from the list and see if that's something we think is useful enough generally to standardize as an extension, but I don't think this is seems to be part of the current specs of core mail and so I. Don't think this blocking what we're doing at the moment, moving forward with those okay.

C

So Jay macking sanctions so with mail and call hopefully essentially done they've, already been few proposals for extensions. That people would like to see that we might want to work on within the group and I think, hopefully still within the chart. Although we'll talk about the charters later so just got, I didn't got to want to briefly bring up, so the first one is about generating mDM's.

C

This is an extension from the nagura again, which was about having an easy method of generating an MD n for a message to send back to you, which I feel was requested. So.

C

Did you want to say something about this.

E

Sentiment MD a method proposed there had not been much discussion on the topic as far as I know,.

E

Move forward with this personally I'd like to.

E

Use K of how to use MTN reference to the MDM sent keyword, maybe to reference to header for having an ID from an implementer point of view of how to be using J map to be sending requesting Indian and managing state of India. So just adding some little sentences just put mdn context in that spec. Okay,.

C

Yes, I need to review a properly insensitive comment, so I did read through it again this morning. I think the general idea seems fine.

C

It needs updating a bit to conform with the latest this.j map kind of a standard way of doing things and naming conventions, but it's a fairly simple extension that yeah, it's enzyme, DN I, think the idea of yeah having a more complete discussion about how this fits into the whole process of getting me notifications and what you'd have to set if you wanted them and how there were at least referencing, irrelevant RFC's, but having a short description certainly helps if someone comes across is to get a completely understanding of what this is about.

C

What it's for, but I, think this could be a good good extension. Anyone else any comments in terms of accepting or not this as part of working group, I.

D

Read it and it was very non-controversial I- think it was a good job cool, so.

C

I think yeah again, we'll look, hopefully to I'll, send through a bit more the review about just the the J map, style, knits and if we can have those fixed and maybe add a ad in the discussion that you you want to add in that you're talking about and then we can review that and go from there. But this looks like yes and that'll be good.

B

Travel through.

C

But we would leave it. Art was just so that if you know it's so much stuff pushing into a cure once oh yeah I will see as much.

B

Motion as a specification.

C

Yep, okay, anyone have anything else to say about Indians I, imagine not cool, let me go back to there, so the other main extension we have proposed at the moment is about using WebSockets as an alternative transport mechanism.

C

So there's a couple of open questions on this the so the proposal at the moment is to be able to use Webb's office as an alternative force and the API requests back and forth. That's all you structured data which I think would be potentially useful. It gives you certainly some performance advantages at the moment in terms of not having to be authenticate.

C

Every request, which could be expensive depending on your authentication mechanism and also WebSockets, are having pretty good widespread support for compressing uploads, as well as the Downloads, whereas HTTP generally not much support for gzipping uploads at the moment in compliance. So that's so I think it would be a nice thing to sport.

C

I think the extensions worthwhile, the open questions the moment are there two main ones, firstly, about out-of-order responses, so it with HTTP, you might make concurrent connections to the api server api was resource to send method calls and currently there's or say they could interleave an execution they're not guaranteed to anything about how the concurrency works, in terms of which one executes first. But that's fine if you know that the two requests are independent and that give you books with WebSockets. Do you presumably don't want to create multiple WebSocket connections to the server?

C

That seems a waste, but does that mean if you send one request down and then send another request before the first response comes back? Is the server allowed, or indeed meant to execute those in parallel and just return the responses in the order that they happen or each of those sequential and only execute the next requests? Once it's finished that previous one you sent? That's does that make sense.

C

Iii personally, I think it makes you you want to be able to replace, can come an ATP requests with a single WebSocket, so it should execute that water, just as soon as it receives them and then send the results back. The I guess the issue, potentially you have here, is rate limiting. So at the moment you have, you can define a limit on the number of concurrent HTTP requests and the number of method calls you can make within a single request. How does that interact with this?

C

Can you still have concurrent WebSocket requests, and can you have multiple requests outstanding within each of those? Does that make sense.

D

Yes and why not well.

C

So it's locking.

D

With this right, so it's sort of designed for this, you can use any access pattern, as you want sure.

C

I think, then we got it at mate or the rate limits define make sense in that you don't want a client to be able to overwhelm the server would work. You know, don't resort your.

B

Ahlstrom so.

C

If you've got an extra dimension in terms of you've got concurrent connections which is, but each concurrent connection can have multiple requests in flight at a time now, where it's a concurrent HTTP request, each one is one request, and so that's why you need this extra limit or use make sure the limits apply across all of these easily I.

D

Think it's certainly worth adding some text describing what the server should do if the limit is exceeded.

A

D

Specific caracal so respond so that you know what yeah.

C

So I guess cause I mean we want to be able to do these yeah out of order request. It means that we're going to have to add some kind of tag to the request object, so that you know can correlate it with which the response object with which requests you sent, which is seems.

C

You could yes yeah. It seems that would work, but I've seen this nicely done. We're able to say this whole request. Object corresponds with this whole response object to me. But, yes, you could just look at the client IDs in the method, calls and see which ones.

C

Okay, so it seems that um that seems fairly straightforward. Then I'll ask Ken to update the draft with with that and on the list as well. Just make sure no one has objections, but I think yeah. We want bills to out order requests, so the other outstanding issue on this was drop. Nothing remember.

C

Although it is oh yeah, so this is just for API requests sending and receiving, but we also have the event source connection you can make in order to get push notifications, the state has changed and therefore you should make a new API request to update your state to the latest naazy web ii. Sockets are bi-directional, so should you be able to send the pushes straight down this as well, so you replace your event source connection as well as your API regress.

C

You just have a single connection to the WebSocket and that use both the sending getting API responses and also, first evening, the push notifications.

B

D

We will implement something similar to this, which is not Jam app yet, but eventually.

C

D

Converted then, we use the same channel to push notifications, okay,.

C

I I think that sounds reasonable as well. So in that case, we'll need some kind of again we'll need some kind of tag on the response object to say what is this. Is this a response to an API request, or is this a notification yeah unlisted thing? So it's only some kind of common property on the top-level JSON object, probably app type might be a it's been used in other specs.

C

To say what is this type of message you just receive it yeah, okay, I think I'm, happy that yeah I think that both of those questions that we have good solutions and yeah ask Ken to write that up, but then I think it's it's not actually a complicated, it's not along spec. Mostly it's just. You use the stack so at this Ken merchants in this draft, so well yeah it just uses the standard upgrade a connection to WebSocket and then everything else just happens normally just enjoyment would.

D

You like another issue: yes,.

C

D

Do would you like to do the so HTTP to so he.

C

D

There is socket well the websocket over HTTP, so there.

C

Is this draft actually does have an example of setting up a WebSocket rates to be based on, like.

D

Oh, that's: fine yeah.

C

Can Kennedy I believe implemented this with a CB as well as HT one-offs check.

A

The nice thing is: if it's, this is Barry. If it's geared toward WebSockets, it doesn't really matter what goes under. It's.

C

The initial upgrades.

D

Believe I, just you know, make sure that there is a reference. So it's also works with yeah.

C

There's actually I think if you scroll down a shows the data flow happening in both HTTP 1, an HTTP yeah. So.

A

I I guess I will post something to the mailing list asking if there any objections to accepting this.

A

Right are there any objections in the room.

C

A

Accepting this as a working product, okay, hearing none sounds.

C

Good showed you quite ones: triumph linting, this mom client side as well. So you can see what the performance is like something that could be nice benefit anyway.

C

D

C

Extensions I think it was.

D

It was the one from me. Yes, I was.

D

So it was a fairly simple, as my robotics I. Don't think she remember whether we accepted it would. It was still.

D

Do you say if you search for expired drafts, does it come up which is which for Gemma.

D

No I think I think you just need to search for J map and then well. Unfortunately, then you need to search again for expired. Drugs.

B

D

Well, it's probably there isn't much point to discuss it.

D

Yeah, additional search criteria.

C

hmm Janice Booga not agree.

D

Well, listen to this today, I'll I'm sure I haven't imagined. This is at least some other people. Remember me writing something about. Yes,.

B

C

D

I would I would be surprised if I didn't put J map in the name, so it's just a bit anyway. I'll. Take it out, don't.

C

Have a quick summary again just report what it was so.

D

I think it was doing just as mine signature verification status as a separate attribute. So.

C

Yeah, so the server had the key in did the verification and just added a properties message say with no.

D

Actually doesn't need the key, because it just as long as this have root CA and Nexus. Okay, it's just, but there is a question of whether we want to do more like serve assisted, decryption or encryption and signing this other thing. So.

C

I guess it's yeah, it's kind of a question if you could have just a simple extension which is: did it verify and then separate one for doing more complex, stuff yeah you try and have a single one that encompasses all different things you might want to do. That's fine.

A

You're gonna store your private key on the server well.

D

That's a downside of it yeah. You have to trust it, so maybe for this reason it's good to have two separate documents, because for signature verification you don't need any keys on the server yeah.

C

That seems worth having two separate. Yes,.

D

C

Then you have to set well, you could to do this in one document, but having two documents makes it easy to have two separate capability string, and so you can say I support this, not that if.

D

People just like one of them, yeah.

C

D

Easier to discuss which party that's like and.

A

I can certainly see servers that don't want people sending them they're private. You still.

C

But in corporate setting who's also quite common to have a ways over yes,.

D

Well, yeah: we have examples both ways. Yes,.

C

D

H

C

D

Mime server-side already so.

B

This is the respect.

C

B

Tax has changed.

C

But that's not important. This is just one extra property on the email object. That's fine, unknown yeah.

D

And therefore, if you start supporting the decryption that there are more states there, but that's just a sort of a list, I will known list of things.

C

It seems we you smoked me.

B

C

Not for any OCA who you trust and everything.

I

This is dkg, so the sign verified in addition to the question about trust management on the server-side. There could easily be two certificates that match all the things identified in this paragraph right, so sanger. If I just says we believe something some certificate matched, but there's no, there's nothing that you can use to on the client-side to log, for example, key continuity, discovery or something like that.

H

So, are you saying you would like more information from the certificate that matched I personally.

I

Wouldn't want the server to do this anyway, a.

D

Few minutes I'll edit yeah I, reverse.

C

I think dkg is going to just point to the general. Probably things is you have a board. You can go from a simple to very complex, depending on what the client wants to do and kind of picking what this extensions for. As long as this has a good use case, that's fine. Do that and then don't over, complicate it and then set the stuff signed.

D

Failed, you know again, depending what kind of information you want. You might want to add diagnostic, describing what exactly failed and.

C

D

C

D

Everything, fine except the certificate, expired. If you know what did the from not match, you know again, there are multiple levels of this. It's.

C

A

D

Probably just one just one, this.

A

Is very I guess, but I'm always leery of that, because it opens up all kinds of attack vectors if you start getting too specific about. You know I. If, if, if signature verification, failed student, verification fail and I, don't really.

B

Like trying to micro.

A

Report that well.

B

A

Expired expired yesterday, which is okay, but if it expired a week ago, it's not okay.

A

I

Is dkj and if I think of J map as like a sort of definition of a shim between mail user agent and the UI, which in some cases, I think it might be used as- and this is for the kind of mode where the user agent is doing all the stuff on the server basically and you've just got a UI I'll observe that in a lot of the mail user agents I've been working with recently the move towards reporting signature status has been signed, successfully versus no comment, and so actually three of these states probably could be collapsed.

I

But if it's, if we're just talking about a UI scenario, because actually from the users point of view, a failed signature doesn't mean anything more than an unsigned message. I have it's very difficult to communicate a failed signature as though it was any like sintra. Fail is the same.

B

Thing as a signed message, it doesn't actually.

I

It's not actionable by the user, so it, but, but if this isn't about a UI split, then there's other reasons why you might want it. Yeah.

C

I mean it's not just for UI, but I did have a similar question of what is the client meant to do if you get signed slash failed by what is the expectation? There is an instance. Tell the user, don't read as message at all or not show it to the user or just not show anything as it said, and just display as normal and.

A

A lot of this is related to this is.

C

A policy sometimes that's.

A

D

A

In Sunday night's a lot of this is related. The decision we made in D chem not to make any assumptions if the signature verification failed, because you don't want to be able to use an attack that makes the verification fail as something that helps an attacker. Yes,.

C

Or in the Deacons case, that was partly because it gets the key from DNS, and so you had a request you could block, whereas if you already have I should need to have to fetch this. If get.

D

Slightly different because in some environment you might require all messages to be signed. So actually, if you see unsigned, which is actually not a state that might be a problem or if it fails to verify that again is a it's.

A

D

A

Bottom line is I think you have to treat any failure to verify a signature as though the message were on song. If you do anything else, you start going down bad paths, but.

C

It's also true the yes, you might have a policy that everything must be signed. Anything else is don't matter at all, tell them. This is yeah, okay, so I think actually I. Suppose Alexi was going to update this.

A

Section was to accepting this document as working for product fairly. It needs some updates, but that's what working group products do so? Okay, yeah.

C

A

Send them a list right.

C

And just one of the thing we could talk about very briefly them. I raised this numerous day. The idea of an extension for getting the quota, which is not currently available and obviously is in I, mapped with an extension.

E

So, basically, as part of a maze GMaps specification, we.

B

Have quota exceeded.

E

Exception remained the exact name, but we do it on a roll when a quota is exited and currently a client have no idea of what that quota is. Would we implemented that in ago ha is an additional field as part of the mailbox, a twitter inverse information?

E

So it minerals a bit the IMAP specification, which I don't remember, RFC number, which is with the root of the quota and all the different resources with irrigated quota, and with all of this information, a Gemma client is able to aggregate basket up and display the guitar, for example, for an account if all the mailbox belong to the same route, so I could propose a draft for it in very some interest in the working work.

D

You're speaking from the floor, I will be interested to look at this.

C

Yeah I think, given something also, you can do it on up. It seems something that would be reasonable to do in dream app, even though I don't know really any MUA is organic. Generic anyway, so do show you the quota, which is a bit weird awesome.

C

Thunderbird. Do it? Okay,.

A

Chris new minimum Jabbar says I support work on a quota extension, but it may be tricky. Some sites want to aggregate quota for different data types. Yes,.

C

We have that, unless different one of the difficulties and making this generic enough just more different use cases.

E

C

Even mailbox so, for example, if you're using a labels, type approach well, one message come in multiple mailboxes. You only may only count it once for your quota, even though it's in multiple mailboxes. So if you just add all the quota of mailboxes together, you end up with two higher quota usage and also similarly I think to what Chris was saying. So you might have a single quote rude that also encompasses other non mail data types.

C

So we have a single query that encompasses calendars and contacts as well as your mail and fast mail, and so it's yeah, but the difficulty here is trying to be able to express all the different ways. The different services manage their quota. I think yeah.

D

I think it's worth doing is just not going to be entirely trivial, yeah yeah. We can easily construct very pathological cases, yeah.

C

D

You know it's not clear how much IMAP details you won't actually express in J map.

C

D

You want to express all of it, maybe some subset of it. I guess.

C

Really we want to be able to express what we need to for it to be useful to existing services and preferably no more than that, because otherwise it's more complicated than it needs to be.

B

It's brought a couple of things here, one of which is I. Think we've got broad agreement that we want to undertake the work and some of the finer details can be figured out once there yeah.

A

B

We actually undertaking the work, and the other thing is back to the idea that a JMO client is often a display shimmer over the data model. Most of what the user cares about is am I using 5% of my quota or 95 percent of my quota. They don't care about the exact details of how that's calculated I just want a bar that shows approximate usage and being exact to a bike doesn't matter. The server will still reject it if you're right at the edge.

C

B

Nice to be able to see I'm only using yeah.

C

That's that's a good point, I think and actually that meets interesting potential. Other way of doing this, which is just you, have one or more quota object returned by the server up to the server, and it just says how big it is, how much you can't using and a label for it, because that label is, you know you tell the user. Is this full male quota? Is this your whole account quota whatever and then client sure I, don't know? That's it. It certainly might actually be more useful to the user than.

D

The labels, so yes again, I'm, not saying that we shouldn't do it I'm, just yeah.

C

All right, I think missing some discussion on the list, Spurs various some ideas, but it would be useful if we can find a solution. Good, okay, I think that's the end of the extensions I talked about so I'm gonna hand this over to Brom.

B

So I sent this email through to the list. That's an easy way to.

B

So email this to list yesterday, sorry for the the very late delivery of it I'm, proposing that we now that we have at delivery of core and mail which were the initial documents that we specified that we reach out of this group.

B

Basically, the first two paragraphs are exactly the same, because most things are the same.

B

On is this the old version to done not first a new version: this is the old version I.

B

I suspect that I haven't actually pushed the changes at all right.

B

So yeah, once these ones have been completed, take into account that there's value in having a single connection and single endpoint, the working group, the person that we now work on other extensions for later data types, including calendars contacts files and that other extensions, maybe credit to access the other features of IMAP and sieve quota being entirely within that scope, as well saying that we should still be bound by the constraints that we're developing a protocol. First synchronizing clients server that we use existing IETF work, who are possible.

B

So jeaious calendar already exists us as they calendaring format over JSON and that we work with whatever IETF groups are defining data types in the areas to interesting, transferring and the core principles that the server doesn't do, work that hasn't been requested of it, and things are explicit rather than implicit. Where possible service. The server is going to take further actions based on the data being uploaded.

B

The client explicitly requests that, rather than asks that doesn't be done, and example, there is with calendaring scheduling that the simple act of putting a scheduling object on the server causes. The server.

C

B

Undertake scheduling, actions and based on who the authenticated user is and where they're, putting the data automatically and there's. In some cases you can't even turn it off and that the Jai map approach to things is more than if you want something done by the server you ask for it, and if you don't ask for the default is not to do anything other than just store.

F

So this may be an it, but are you overloading the term extension probably would it would it make sense to use some different term along what you know was suggesting that you've got core and then you've got protocol, specific things, segments or something.

C

Yeah again, yeah I wouldn't consider like j-mac contacts. You might calendar really be extensions. There are different data models. Go on top extension to me is a small thing that does yeah, but.

B

C

Like ancient mails, an extension yeah, then you yeah, like an extension, is yeah. It's something it doesn't really stand on its own, but it's a addition to quote the so nobody n does make any sense without the mail thing yeah I'm, just yes,.

I

On jabber Jim Fenton says what would be the relationship between J map and Starr, dev, CalDAV etc, as a replacement for it.

C

You know I can see. Yes, absolutely that's the ideas in the same way as J map is to I'm a food. Okay, my mail is to I guess really J my calendar be to Cal dev contacts to card that Jarrett files and theory to web tab.

C

Just and then you have a single, consistent protocol for synchronizing all these bits of information which is more efficient, better suited for mobile and all the other nice things that J map has as a generic thing and makes it easy to work with, especially given you know, coin contacts, calendars and mail and the same app is very common it to be much nicer.

C

If you have one protocol and again that also means you avoid the issues where my contacts were calendars, don't because my conflicts slightly out in that respect, all the authentication needed is different or anything like that. So we think it makes a lot of sense for this to be a single protocol. Also, then it competes properly with active sync and other proprietary things like that and which part of their advantages. Yes, they have a single protocol for accessing all these different types.

B

F

An alternative term: either data models- I, don't know if that doesn't quite trip off the tongue nicely, but.

F

Yeah I know no, it's.

F

Yeah I'll have to think about it and see if something comes to mind.

I

From jabber Stephon Bush suggests capability as dkj I'm, not convinced by that, because if I maps capabilities.

F

Yeah I'm I'm also wondering, though, even given the guidelines of where does this sort of leverage other specifications and what are their kind of core principles that governs a gmap interaction with a server I'm wondering if we need to bound this base a little bit more and do we want to talk about J map, RT or something I mean or J map track. I mean it's, maybe not I, don't know.

D

With my ad hat on now, this is actually similar to what I was about to say is. This seems like a lot of work potentially, and one thing which is not clear is priority of different items. For example, we're probably still want to do gmf extensions before other documents, unless we really collectively can I think that there is an out bandwidth in the working group to work on all of them in parallel. So probably some text should be added about sequencing.

D

The other thing I suggest, is I'm happy to discuss recharging now, I suggest we don't reach other until the two main documents are passed. Ht review.

A

D

It's a distraction.

D

To who well to me as well, you know because I'll have to argue with that is G. Why? Why why on earth we have to boil the ocean, and some some of it might might might seem that.

A

D

Guess the question I don't want other area directors to ask, is you know, is this what complete? Why are you starting all this other stuff? Well,.

A

I mean it's easy enough to say: the main documents are in last call, so here we go, but it's fair, fair enough. Yeah, no problem.

F

The other my loss, I lost my train of thought, go ahead. Neil.

C

I've just been say: yeah III think we can keep it more constrained because it's almost always possible to recharge.

B

C

Don't you Robin yet have a focus. My a lot of person in terms of ordering I would say. J-Mac calendars makes a fair bit of sense. Do because I don't think it's going to be too complex with Jays calendar already in last call that collects as well. It is pretty much combination of that data format, plus J map call for the desynchronization and a small mountaintops to talk about scheduling. That's it's fairly, straightforward, yeah.

D

To be honest, if we just add one calendar now and then the chart again, I don't think it's going to be a problem, especially if the working group has a good track record of taking stuff wage.

F

D

F

I remember what it was I'm concerned, speaking of data models, I'm concerned that we may be introducing circular dependencies here and going down the cluster around that if we have these application spaces for lack of a working term that J map covers, and then we have extensions, all of which are built on core.

F

Do the extensions apply to only specific application spaces or multiple or do the application spaces depend on extensions, etc.

C

You know again, I think the extensions proposed have been like so WebSocket extension just extends call. It would make no difference which in use on top of it I, don't think the mini any conflict, whereas yeah, whereas it's not any extension, is an alternative. Where is like email send. Mdn is clearly only relevant. You know, I I'm, sorry points to me so far the extensions of a clear whether they're doing how they would interact well.

F

But so far it's also been a fairly constrained playing field. And if we open up the playing field, then I'm concerned that we may open the door to circular vacuity.

B

C

It's which is a slightly odd when some aspects and yes, it's kind of I, see email but the same time. The chord doesn't say anything about email like it doesn't have to be email and that's why we're using for other types as well, and then that was the point raised by sodium on the lift list. There was email focused in this.

F

Well, yeah and and related to email is a pretty low bar I mean you could argue that voicemail or phone handling could be related to mail, because it's related to contacts which is related to mail, etc.

C

Yes, in fact, in that respect, I would I, agree and I think perhaps a better approach would be just released with the estate we're looking to expand this on the calendar as a date time that that's you know, for the next kind of bit of work will even calendar and contacts yeah, though it makes sense it's and we're not it's not talking about email as relate or trying to be wishy-washy about it, but it's also then based the specific and not encompassing the world of other things that you could do if we want to do something else.

C

Well, that will be recharging again later. Calendar in context clearly makes the most sense and would be a really good thing to have together with email on on this protocol, so yeah. If we focus on that and then minor extensions to the email, it all then I think that encompasses all the things we actually want to do and keeps it more constrained.

D

Probably before that, especially if we I'm hoping that the two main documents can be in HT review by the end of the year right, so then.

A

We can reach out in January right, throw a charter.

D

So yeah in the meantime, please edit it post a new version just.

B

Having just stood up in the chairs meeting and and said that we should keep her milestones up to date, us working group chairs, I've gone through and teak done for submitting the documents describing the protocol. Since that's done, no one demanded a problem. Statements turns off the document to for guidance to implementation of service.

B

We have a draft of that sitting outside a chief.

A

Microphones, please.

C

Neil Jenkins in yeah I think Alexei had volunteered to write a document about translating between IMAP. He says he cannot deny that off microphone like we minuted.

C

Yeah I I have written a document which is on the game up to I/o website, which is about data structures. You could use to implement that, but that's different. This document was meant to be about translating between IMAP and I, believe yeah.

F

I was curious about the title they're saying that it's implementing IMAP servers and it's like why I said in our j-mac working group.

C

Yeah I believe it's meant to be more about translation between IMAP enjoyment, Robin implanting I'm up servers itself, the.

A

Question is to whether we want to proceed with that document. At this point, even.

B

A

We want to proceed with the other technical documents that we're working on and maybe and.

B

Then the second.

A

Question is: if we do the latter, do we want to come back to this document or just striking.

B

This was why the doctor is requested. Was it specifically says in the Charter that it needs to be implementable on top of an IMAP server, so.

D

I'm trying to state both in with my ID hat and without with AD hat on I'm less concerned now, as I was back at the time about ability for two to co-exist. Considering all the work and extra working group, which is trying to not quite back board but add some features back to our map.

D

So as far as actually, if such document water period and I think it would be useful.

D

Somebody else wants to pick it out. That would be great, too I might find.

A

It eventually some.

D

Cycles today, but.

A

D

Wouldn't I suggest.

A

We just change the milestone date on this to December 2020, just push it out, stick in milestones for.

B

The other documents.

A

Were accept anger and, and if we come back to that document we do and if not, we we can eventually trash the milestone. But I'll.

D

Be okay with that.

B

A

Wait until we officially accept that.

B

On which I've, given the.

A

Date of November 16th next Friday.

B

And Indians already been accepted, so I'll stick milestone for that yeah.

A

I'm doing my WebSocket and that's mine yeah to that we're still polling working.

B

All right so that tell us recovering and we're on to any other business.

A

Do I hear a motion to adjourn I, see, motions that appear to be looking at the present adjourn I think we're adjourned. Thank you.

I

A

And thank you remote participants for staying up bit late, I.

A

Think we I think I'm, mostly West Coast us, which my reckoning is that it's about 1 a.m. no about 11 p.m. West, Coast, clock so or midnight.

A

Stefan bashas in the Netherlands, so yeah, it's some really screwed up time for them. Thanks for joining.

A

Can we kill the mics, please.