►
From YouTube: IETF108-SHMOO-20200731-1100
Description
SHMOO meeting session at IETF108
2020/07/31 1100
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/108/proceedings/
A
B
B
E
B
Hey
rich,
like
have
you
sent
out
the
slides,
or
do
you
want
to
take
ownership
when
you
present.
A
Let
me
know
if
you
have
trouble
accessing
the
slides
I
sent
and
I
can
re-send
you
a
copy
for
the
for
the
records.
B
B
Thank
you,
hi
welcome
all
to
the
shmu
working
group
meeting,
and
this
is
like
our
first
meeting.
We
just
got
chartered
two
weeks
ago,
or
so
I
just
wanna,
like
you
know,
throw
up
the
noteworld
like
a
lot
most
of
the
people
I
see
are
like
you
know.
People
have
been
here
quite
a
few
times
and
I
don't
expect
you
to
really
go
over
all
this
now.
But
it's
there's
like
a
lot
of
details
in
here,
but
everything
you
talk
about
here.
B
So
welcome
to
the
shmu
working
group
like
we
are
brand
new
and
so
like
it's
about
like
two
weeks
or
so
old
and
we
haven't
had
a
chance
to
like
ramp
up
as
like
as
much
as
like.
B
We
could
have
right
like
and
a
lot
of
the
drafts
and
everything
we
are
chatted
very
close
to
the
drafted
line
and
but,
like
you
know,
it's
very
heartening
to
see
still
quite
a
few
drafts
came
about
and
like
a
lot
of
items
for
discussion,
and
we
really
expect
to
get
going
after
the
meeting
on
the
mailing
list,
mainly
as
well
to
make
some
progress
towards
our
deliverables
and,
like
you
know
at
this
point,
like
you
know,
the
customary
point
like
please
asking
for
minute
takers
and
jabber
scribes
like
the
chairs,
will
be
watching
the
jabber
as
well.
B
But
I
would
really
like,
like
a
minute
taker,
to
do,
take
some
minutes
collaboratively.
We
can
type
in
the
chat.
C
F
B
Thanks
colin
like,
but
I
I
can
see
that
they're,
like
I'm
actually
presenting
from
there
so.
B
B
Thank
you,
hey
and,
and
just
like
still
looking
for,
that
mini
taker
like
michael
can
you
like
do
be
one
of
the
minute
takers
hit
the
collar
on.
B
C
Who
is
be
wrong
for
brong.
H
Sorry
for
not
answering,
I
had
trouble
with
audio
I'm
not
in
the
tools
so
yeah.
Let
ron
do
it.
B
Okay,
so
just
to
go
over
the
deliverables
in
a
very,
very
high-level
way,
so,
first
of
all,
just
looking
at
the
agenda
so
like
there's
like
some
deliverables
and
status,
I
just
want
to
go
over
like
an
unrecap
like
you
know
what
are
the
deliverables
for
this
working
group
and
then
we
have
like
two
presentations
planned
for
today,
like
one
from
dan
and
dan's,
like
it's,
it's
really
like
stuff.
B
He
started
like
a
couple
of
years
ago
like
when
we
were
kind
of
pondering
the
effect
of
zika
on
the
ietf
and
so
on,
and
there's
like
a
lot
of
items
that
are
pertinent
in
his
draft,
like
that
was
like
discussed
in
the
many
cultures
list
like
a
while
ago
and
dan
is
gonna
like
do
a
recap
of
this
whole
thing,
and
then
richard
is
going
to
present
like
technology
requirements
like
for
like
fully
online
meetings.
B
Like
you
know,
there's
no
draft
exists
for
this,
but
the
idea
is
to,
like
you
know,
kind
of
start
working
on
a
draft
after
this
meeting,
when
we
kind
of
have
some
kind
of
feedback
from
the
working
group
on
this
so
skipping
further.
Like
you
know,
we
have
like
four
major
deliverables
in
here.
So
first
of
all
is
like
you
know
the
guidelines
and
principles
for
canceling
in-person
meetings
and
replacing
them
with
fully
online
meetings,
and
for
those
like
you
know,
martin
duke
wrote
a
draft.
B
It
just
got
published
this
week
after
the
the
cut
off
reopened,
and
so
we
can
have
discussions
on
the
mailing
list
like
martin
is
like
in
a
conflicting
meeting
today.
So
but
but
the
idea
is
like
really
to
try
to
have
some
kind
of
high
level
guidelines
to
say
when
we
want
to
cancel
a
meeting
and
replace
it
with
a
fully
online
meeting
for
an
in-person
meeting,
and
the
second
item
is
like
once,
we
have
a
replacement
online
meeting.
How
do
we
go
about
planning
it?
B
Is
there
going
to
be
like
a
one-week
meeting
like
multi-week
meeting
like
what
time
zone
it
should
be
anchored
in
and
so
on?
That's
really
like
for
the
meeting
planning
itself
and
and
the
third
one
is,
like
you
know,
kind
of
try
to
collect
a
bunch
of
requirements
for,
like
you
know,
fully
online
meeting
tools
as
well,
and
there's
like
richard
is
going
to
on
something
and
there's
also
this
virtual
hum
tool
thing.
But
it's
like
very,
very
small
piece
of
the
the
puzzle
really.
B
But
the
draft
exists
as
well,
and
this
like
had
like
quite
a
bit
of
discussion
everywhere,
but
like
just
to
point
that
it
exists
and-
and
finally,
like
you
know,
I
thought,
like
there'd,
be
like
more
discussion
on
this
like
in
this,
but
to
how
to
figure
out,
like
you
know
whether
there's
going
to
be
meeting
fees
or
not,
and
so
how
much
it's
going
to
be
and
how
we're
going
to
set
this
right
and-
and
this
is
like
another
important
deliverable.
B
But
we
have
like
no
drafts
and
like
nobody
volunteered
to
like.
You
know
like
lead
the
discussion
on
this,
and
but
that's
something
we
want
to
kind
of
get
going.
A
lot
of
the
people
said
like
hey.
The
time
zone
doesn't
really
work
for
them.
In
this
so
or
there's
like
a
conflict
but
like
we'll
get
on
it
right
after
we
like
finish
up
this
meeting,.
B
So
if
there's
any
questions
about
like
any
of
these
deliverables
like
please
get
in
the
mic
line,
if
not
we'll
just
continue
with
dan's.
I
Oh
yeah
thanks,
so
one
just
point
of
order,
question
I
I
you
know,
I
think
these.
These
are
absolutely
the
right
next
step
for
what
we
need
to
do.
There's
been
some
people,
you
know
that
have
wanted
to
work
on
longer
term
larger.
You
know
kind
of
solutions
well
beyond
the
scope
of
this,
so
my
question
is
really
about
the
mailing
list.
Can
you
know
the
mailing
list
in
the
past
has
been?
You
know
more
open
toward
broader
discussions,
and
you
know
future
ways
of
thinking.
I've
been
looking
for.
You
know
possible.
I
B
No,
I
I
think
it's
fine
to
go
on
the
mailing
list
like,
and
there
is
some
kind
of
like
longer
term
thinking,
that's
coming
up
in
a
second
phase
of
the
working
group.
So
once
we
finish
this
deliverable,
like
you
know,
we
are
like
it's
really
open
to
see
if
you
can
go
to
like
you
know,
more
online
meetings
on
a
regular,
cadence
right
and
that's
like
actually
called
out
in
the
chatter
as
something
you
want
to
work
on
in
the
future.
B
D
Okay,
so
or
do
you
want
me
to
drive,
this
might
be
okay?
Now
we
can
just
go.
D
D
You
know
what
I
should
vote.
No,
why
don't
you
just
go
ahead
and
we'll
just
go
through
it
it.
I
don't
want
to
spend
time
wasting
time
with
things
here,
she's,
good,
okay,
so
I
want
to
talk.
I
want
to
set
the
context
for
a
little
bit
about
what
the
questions
that
were
raised
a
while
ago.
I
I
should
begin
with
with
one
quick
disclaimer.
D
D
D
So
back.
If
you
will
remember
in
20
about
five
years
ago,
in
2015
and
2016,
there
was
another
global
pandemic
that
was
going
on
in
some
ways,
although
it
wasn't
really
global,
it
was
localized
to
pretty
much
latin
america
and
the
areas
that
were
there.
Everybody
was
a
lot
of
people
were
stressed
about
zika
next
slide
and
in
fact
one
of
our
sister
organizations
was
canceling
or
or
not
canceling.
They
were
re
relocating
next
slide.
Please
they
were
going
on.
D
Icann,
56
and
57
were
being
moved
to
other
parts
of
the
world,
and
so
a
small
design
team
met
started.
Meeting
stephen
farrell
convened
a
whole
group
of
people
that
would
go
and
start
to
look
at
what
would
it
be
for
to
have
many
people
sitting
at
home
on
many
different
couches
and
that
hence
the
name
that
you
wind
up
with
with
many
couches
and
the
group
actually
met
face
to
face
in
itf,
96
and
97.
D
D
There
were
a
number
of
the
participants
who
were
part
of
that
when
suresh
graciously
said
it
was
my
draft,
it
was
my
summary
I
was
the
one
who
wound
up
summarizing
a
lot
of
the
discussions
that
happened,
but
the
the
discussions,
the
points,
many
of
those
things
came
out
of
this
group
of
people
and
more
who
were
there
next
slide,
please,
which
resulted
in
the
draft
which
has
that
wonderful
opening
line
that
says
you
know
this
is
currently
a
thought
experiment.
There's
no
current
plans
to
hold
a
completely
virtual
itf
meeting.
D
I
just
love
that
part
of
things.
So
the
next
slide.
If
we
go
on
on
that,
was
this.
This
discussions
went
on,
but
then,
of
course,
all
the
people
involved
were
I
mean
we
were
all
super
busy
things
were
going
on.
There
was,
I
asked
a
2.0
there's
a
lot
of
other
different
stuff
that
was
affected
things,
so
the
many
couches
work
really
delivered
many
questions
and
then
in
early
2019,
wes
hartiger,
who
jumped
on
here
at
the
beginning.
D
He
and
ted
lemon
and
some
others
started
to
to
start
to
restart
things
and
look
at
how
could
we
think
about
longer
term?
There
was
a
dog
food,
some
different
kind
of
stuff
that
was
going
on
and
and
pieces
like
that,
and
now
we
of
course
have
had
this
experience
in
2020
as
a
community
of
of
ietf,
107
and
108,
which
really
comes
into
in
my
mind,
it's
shmu
is
sort
of
that
answer
to
you
know.
We
had
raised
a
whole
bunch
of
questions.
D
What
guidance
can
we
provide
to
the
ietf
leadership,
to
the
itflc
and
to
the
others
who
are
involved
around
how
we
want
to
answer
some
of
those
various
different
questions
that
are
there?
So,
let's,
let's
start
with
some
of
those
questions
and
and
take
a
look
at
this
and
suresh,
I
don't
know,
do
you
want
me
to
walk
through
this?
Do
you
want
people
to
come
to
the
mic?
How
do
you
want
to
handle
this
from
a
flow.
B
D
Okay,
then
I
guess:
if
anybody
wants
to
get
in
queue,
you
can
do
so
when
we
get
to
some
of
these
all
right,
so
the
I
yeah
there
we
go
so
the
first
set
of
questions
that
that
the
group
confronted
was
really
what
or
the
not
the
first,
I
would
say
the
biggest
one.
Two
of
the
biggest
questions
is
this
slide
and
the
next
slide
one.
Is
you
know
what
does
the
meeting
structure
look
like
you
know,
just
because
we
do
it
in
a
week
in
a
normal
physical
environment.
D
Do
we
need
to
continue
doing
that?
Could
we
spread
the
meetings
across
a
longer
period
of
time,
multiple
weeks,
or
does
that
make
it
too
much
of
a
demand
on
people
who
need
to
be
in
all
of
those
you
know?
Do
they
do
we
need
to
exist
within
a
certain
set
of
hours?
Do
people
like
the
five
hour
blocks
that
we've
had
this
time?
Could
we
spread
it
out
more?
Is
that
again?
What's
the?
How
taxing
is
that
on
the
people
who
want
to
participate?
D
You
know
we've
done
as
we've
done
here
today
or
this
week.
We've
done
multiple
sessions
at
the
same
time.
You
know.
Is
that
part
of
it?
Do
we
look
at
something
else?
How
long
do
we
meet?
You
know
what
what
these
are?
Some
of
the
questions
that
that
were
being
raised-
and
I
think
these
are
part
of
what
the
community
needs
to
provide
the
guidance
on
and
it's
part
of
the
schmoo
process
is
what
does
that
look
like?
D
I
J
Yeah,
so
just
while
people
are
thinking
about
this
there's
one
thing
I
wanted
to
point
out,
which
is
the
advantage
of
of
having
guidelines
developed
for
the
ques.
These
questions
about
the
especially
the
timing
and
the
length
of
the
meeting,
and
so
on,
is
that
we
can
capture
some
of
the
concerns
around
sort
of
the
fairness
or
the
distribution
of
of
the
of
the
of
the
timing
across
time
zones
so
like.
If
we,
if
we
always
drive
the
the
timing
decisions
based
on
survey,
then
it's
like
a
majority
rules.
J
So
you
end
up
with
like
clusters
of
people
between
europe
and
north
america,
where
you
find
you
know
the
time
zone
or
the
you
know.
Even
the
length
of
the
meeting
will
favor
the
majority
and
then
our
participants
in
asia
kind
of
get
the
short
end
of
the
straw.
J
If
we
do
it
that
way-
and
this
is
something
that
came
through
in
the
survey
that
we
did
after
107-
because
we
didn't
have
very
many
sessions
during
the
meeting
week
itself-
and
then
we
spread
out
these
interims
lots
of
people
loved
that,
but
because
the
interims
just
get
scheduled
based
on
the
decisions
of
individual
working
group
chairs,
a
lot
of
them
ended
up
being
clustered
within
a
within.
J
Basically
the
14
utc,
the
two
hours
after
that
and
that
disadvantages
people
for
whom
14
to
16
utc
is
not
a
a
convenient
time
zone.
So
I
just
wanted
to
point
that
out
that,
like
that
this
is
the
advantage
of
writing
guidelines
is
that
we
can
address
some
of
those
things
as
opposed
to
if
we
just
drive
it
with
survey.
All
the
time.
D
But
but
I
think
if
there
are
questions,
I
see
people
in
the
chat
asking
if
there
are
comments
or
questions
around
this,
I
think
my
understanding
what's
rush,
what
I,
what
I'm,
what
I
believe
I'm
asked
to
do
is
to
help
drive
these
questions
and
and
help
solicit
some
of
this,
so
that
we
can
start
to
get
these
got
this
guidance
which
will
ultimately
feed
into
the
outcomes
of
the
shmoop
group.
So
please
feel
free
to
ask
questions
or
getting
q
if
you
wish
to
and
if
not
we'll
go
on
to
the
next.
C
Queue
so
I'm
running
in
adrian
farrell
now.
K
Hi
yeah
thanks.
I
I
think,
there's
a
nice
list
of
questions.
I'd
be
really
interested
to
know.
People's
experience
with
agenda
conflicts
this
time
around.
K
It
seems
to
make
good
sense
to
have
multiple
sessions
happening
at
the
same
time,
but
only
when
that
isn't
causing
people
to
have
to
be
in
two
meetings
at
once
and
there's
more
of
a
temptation
to
do
that
with
online
meetings
than
there
is
with
physical
meetings,
and
my
brain
is
frying
because
I'm
currently
in
the
cheese
working
group
as
well.
So
thanks.
B
So
adrian,
if
I
can
get
you
back
on
the
line
like
is
you're
thinking
that
we
should
have
more
or
less
like
parallel
tracks
like
than
we
do
in
a
physical
meeting
in
here
or
is
just
something
you
want
us
to
watch
out
for.
K
B
Yeah
and
jay,
like
kind
of
has
like
a
meeting
survey
like
a
detailed
meeting
survey
from
last
time,
and
I'm
pretty
sure
like
you
know,
there'd
be
like
something
like
that
too,
and
it's
I
think
it
was
like
one
of
the
most
answered
surveys
of
all
time.
I
think
you'll
get
like
some
kind
of
answers
from
that
alien
and
like
yeah.
That's
a
really
good
point.
C
C
L
Hi,
hopefully
you
can
hear
me:
okay,.
L
So,
just
quickly
running
through
your
helpful
list
of
questions
dan-
and
this
is
obviously
my
personal
perception-
others
will
differ.
I'm
sure
my
preference
is
that
it's
structured
over
a
week,
it's
a
real
pain
to
try
and
track
virtual
meetings
stretching
several
months.
Hence-
and
it's
easy
to
miss
them.
So
I
don't
think
that's
conducive
to
getting
more
engagement
that
way,
so
I
think
actually
having
it
as
an
event,
rather
than
just
a
widespread
set
of
meetings
is
far
far
better.
L
L
Actually
having
multiple
sessions
like
we
would
do
for
a
face-to-face
meeting
is
perfectly
fine,
there's
going
to
be
some
conflicts,
but
that's
really
down
to
the
meeting
chairs
when
they
put
in
for
their
scheduling,
requests,
making
sure
they
indicate
what
they
shouldn't
be
scheduled
against.
L
So
that's
down
to
the
working
groups
to
handle
that
as
it
again
as
it
would
do
for
a
normal
meeting
yeah.
I
think
I'll
cover
the
next
one,
which
is
sort
of
five
hours
or
so
seems
like
a
good
amount
of
time.
Maybe
you
could
extend
it
a
bit
by
scheduling
some
social
events,
but
I'm
not
not
sold
on
the
gather
town
thing.
I
think
there
could
be
meetings
like
this,
which
could
be
deliberately
set
up
as
social
events.
L
I
guess
you
know
many
of
us,
I
think,
will
be
well
used
to
you
having
social
events
on
zoom,
for
example,
and
trying
to
maybe
replicate
that
within
meet.
Echo
would
be
a
good
thing
if,
if
the
flexibility
in
meet
echo
would
allow
such
a
format
rather
than
just
this
sort
of
slides
or
meeting
type
format
anyway,
both
those
are
my
views,
as
I
say,
I'm
sure
others
will
have
different
conflicting
views,
but
there'd
be
no
fun
if
we
didn't.
Thank
you.
N
E
So
the
video
is
working,
never
mind
so,
for
me,
the
meta
question
I
think
is
is
is
the
most
important
one
in
terms
of
how
are
we
trying
to
figure
out
what
is
best
for
the
overall
community
as
opposed
to
just
the
individual
opinions
of
the
people
active
here
and
are
you
know
contributing
to
the
process,
because
I,
for
once,
I'm
pretty
sure
that
whatever
my
own
opinion
is
isn't
probably
reflective
of
the
majority
of
the
community,
nor
likely
the
majority
of
the
people
active
here
right?
E
So
whatever
we
do,
you
know
surveys
seem
to
be.
You
know,
painful,
but
a
good
way
to
reach
out
to
the
larger
community
to
to
get
broader
answers
to
these
questions.
B
Yeah,
a
good
good
point
alex,
I
think,
like
once.
We
have
like
some
kind
of
early
form
of
drafts
like
for
the
deliverables
like.
I
think
we
can
do
some
kind
of
publicity
on
the
ietf
discussion
list
as
well
to
get
like
a
broader
community.
But
we
are
not
at
that
point
yet
like
when
we
have
something
even
like
you
know
as
a
base
point
to
start
sharing.
C
So
I
think
we
we
had
a
survey.
There
was
a
preliminary
review
already
made
by
the
executive
and
jay
daley
might
be
presenting.
C
Some
of
his
preliminary
results
from
that
later
today,
if
I
understood
correctly
but
but
it's
coming,
and
there
can
certainly
be
more
surveys,
I
expect
I.
C
Thank
you
very
much.
I
will
let
richard
barnes
into
the
queue
it's
a
comment
see
if.
A
I
successfully
focused
good
morning
folks,
I
assume
I'm
wonderful
here
I'll,
just
throw
a
couple
bits
of
quick
anic
data
in
here.
It's
adrian's
question
about
conflicts.
I
didn't
personally
have
any
issues
with
that.
I
hadn't
heard
folks
having
conflicts.
I
think
we
got
a
good
balance
with
the
slots
we
had
of
getting
things
into
the
conflict.
A
That
was
impressive.
I'm
a
bit
split
on
this
consolidated
week,
question.
On
the
one
hand,
it
made
it
easy
to
to
reserve
time
and
keep
you
know,
take
time
away
from
other
stuff,
because
you
could
just
block
out
some
time
on
schedule
and
as
andrew
points
out,
that
would
be
a
lot
more
challenging
with
a
spread
out
schedule.
A
I
will
point
out
that,
for
a
couple
of
the
groups,
I
was
involved
in
the
lack
of
flexibility
in
scheduling
led
to
us
not
being
able
to
have
basically
all
of
the
major
contributors
to
the
work,
and
so
we
ended
up
having
a
pretty.
You
know
a
slot
that
we
basically
used
for
informing
the
broader
ietf
community
and
not
getting
real
work
done.
So
it
was.
It
was
less
valuable.
C
Okay,
thank
you.
Then
it's
ted
lemon.
H
O
Echo
cancellation
not
working,
let's
see
if
I
can
survive
this,
so
what
I
wanted
to
talk
about
was
oh,
this
is
horrible.
O
Can
okay,
sorry,
I'm
hearing
everything
that
I
say
like
with
a
one
tenth
of
a
second
delay.
So
it's
really
hard
to
talk.
O
Yeah,
let's
see
how
about
now:
okay,.
O
Anymore,
so
what
I
want
to
talk
about
is
that
the
there's,
a
certain
lack
of
of
thinking
outside
of
the
box,
that
I
think
we
wind
up
doing
because
we're
you
know
we're
so
used
to
doing
our
meetings
in
person.
We
have
this
this
formula
that
we
use.
That
has
really
worked
well
for
us
in
the
in-person
meetings,
and
I
just
like
to
encourage
people
to
think
a
little
bit
farther
outside
of
the
box
than
what's
been
discussed
thus
far.
O
When
we
talked
about
doing
the
meetings
over
the
course
of
24
hours
back
in
2019,
the
idea
was
not
that
we
would
just
spread
the
whole
schedule
across
24..
Well,
that
was
one
idea.
Let's
just
spread
the
whole
schedule
across
24
hours,
and
you
know
good
luck
to
anybody
who
who
has
to
get
up
at
three
in
the
morning
to
show
up
for
a
meeting.
But
you
know
actually,
my
fellow
my
friends
in
california
right
now
are
getting
up
before
in
the
morning
to
come
to
this
meeting.
O
So
it's
not
that
weird,
but
what
we
actually
talked
about
was
what
could
we
do
differently?
That
would
make
it
possible
to
meet
in
a
in
an
effective
way
across
a
24-hour.
O
O
So,
for
example,
suppose
a
working
group
has
like
10
working
group
items
each
of
those
working
group
items.
The
people
that
want
to
present
on
those
working
group
items
could
actually
just
like
pre-record
a
presentation
and
make
that
available,
and
then
we
could
say:
okay
at
a
certain
time,
we're
going
to
have
a
discussion
about
this
and
let's
have
everybody
who's
interested
in
that
discussion
or
who
who
thinks
they
might
just
show
up
to
see.
O
What's
going
on,
sign
up
and
we'll
pick
some
times
like
we'll
pick
the
time
at
like
four
in
the
morning,
california,
time
and
another
time,
it's
like
say
11
in
the
morning,
california
time
and
people
who
can
show
up
at
4am
will
show
up
and
have
a
discussion.
People
could
show
up
at
11am
will
show
up
and
have
a
discussion.
We'll
note
those.
O
The
notes
that
were
taken
for
for
those
conversations
get
sort
of
harmonized,
and
maybe
we
have
a
wrap-up
session
where
anybody
who
feels
like
they
didn't
get
heard
or
wants
to
participate
in
a
discussion
with
somebody
who
wasn't
in
their
breakout.
They
can
show
up,
and
so
I
mean
I'm
outlining
something
here.
O
That's
that's
very
researchy,
but
the
point
is
like:
if
we
actually
want
to
succeed
in
meeting
online,
I
think
we
really
do
need
to
think
outside
the
box,
because
we
have
the
availability,
like
the
tools
we
have
available
to
us
are
much
better
than
what
we
have
if
we're
meeting
in
person
or
much
different,
maybe
better,
isn't
the
right
word.
D
Dan's
lip's
moving,
oh,
but
you
don't
have
your
headphones
in,
so
you
don't
know
that,
I'm
speaking
so
I
I
think
you
raise
excellent
points.
We
need
to
think
outside
of
the
of
the
time
frame
and
I
think
that's
the
question
really
is:
what
guidance
does
the
community
want
around
that?
Do
we
does?
Does
the
bulk
of
our
community
want
to
stick
to
the
event
week
kind
of
format?
D
Do
we
want
to
think
within
certain,
and
that's
this
comes
into
the
time
zone
issue
as
well,
but
you
know
what
structure
is
it
you
know
I
mean
I
I
personally
did
find
that
the
five
hour
block
was
useful
and
that
I
could
just
plan.
That
was
a
time
when
I
was
going
in
there
into
ietf
world,
and
then
I
could
know
that
outside
of
that
is
when
I
would
be
able
to
go
and
and
work
with
that.
But
it
is
it's.
D
It's
an
excellent
question
to
ask,
and
I
think
it's
the
right
one
is
you
know:
are
we
constraining
ourselves
by
thinking
about
how
we
did
things
in
a
in
a
physical
way
when
we
do
have
this
flexibility
in
certain
ways?
How
will
that
impact
us
outside
of
it?
I
would
suggest
for
the
question
of
for
the
sake
I
know
suresh,
you
told
me
to
take
as
long
as
we
want.
I
also
realized
that
on
each
of
these
we
could
go
deep,
so
I
I
would
encourage
people
to
think
about.
D
Are
there
major
points
or
questions
that
we
should?
That
would
help
express
opinion
or
help
drive
the
the
development
of
guidance
around
these
whoever's?
Next,
though,
oh
wes.
C
Yeah
I'll,
let
was
hardcore.
Oh.
I
Well
I'll,
keep
this
a
little
bit
shorter,
because
ted
just
pretty
much
said
everything
I
was
gonna
say
so,
but
you
know
I
actually
thought
that
this
week
worked
really
well,
and
I
think
that
this
charter,
as
I
said,
is
sort
of
the
right
next
baby
step
forward,
but
ted's
right
that
you
know
we
need
to
solve
the
you
know.
How
do
we
readjust
our
world,
given
that
we
have
to
do
it
now,
whereas
the
discussion
that
ted
and
I
started
well
restarted
started
again.
I
You
know
a
while
back
was
was
about
the
bigger
problem,
because
both
of
these
this
slide
and
your
next
one
on
time
zones
are
really
both
tied
to
the
larger
question
of
how
do
we
make
interactive
meetings?
Work,
and
this
is
the
bigger
question
of?
Are
there
better
ways
to
interact
than
you
know?
Sort
of
virtually
meeting
meetings
are
one
mechanism
for
getting
around
the
higher
bandwidth
over
email.
I
You
know,
and
are
there
other
ones
that
work,
unfortunately,
that's
sort
of
hard
research,
but
you
we
need
to
think
about
changing
the
way
we
work
as
an
example,
one
of
the
things
that
I
posed
as
a
problem
question
is:
what
would
it
take
to
make
all
the
working
groups
meet
a
hundred
percent
of
the
time
for
a
week
right,
24
7.,
you
know
completely
think
about
the
our
structure
and
you
know
what
would
what
would
it
need
to
to
make
that.
D
Thanks,
no
and
that's
excellent,
that's
exactly
right!
We're
at
the
current
point
with
the
questions
we're
asking
are:
how
do
we
rep,
you
know,
really
revolve
around?
How
do
we
replicate
the
experience
of
an
itf
meeting,
whereas
there
may
be
other
ways
to
solve
it?
Mark
hey
the
floating
head.
Yes,
indeed,.
M
So
a
lot
of
globes
that
that's
a
that's
a
lot
of
gloves
so
structuring
the
meeting
over
a
week
makes
a
lot
of
sense
when
it's
we're
all
in
the
same
place.
M
You
know
we
have
the
the
serendipity
of
the
hallway
meetings
and
all
the
extra
breakout
sessions
and
oh,
I
need
to
go
and
pull
that
person
into
this
room
for
this
discussion
and
everybody's
kind
of
on
the
same
clock
more
or
less,
and
you
get
a
lot
of
of
value
out
of
that.
I
think.
M
I
don't
see
that
value
in
this
format
that
we're
doing
this
week.
You
know
it's
highly
disruptive
to
some
people,
not
at
all
disruptive
to
others.
People
are
on
different
schedules.
M
As
you
know,
when
you
look
at
the
schedule,
I
don't
know
if
my
slot
is
going
to
be
at
two
in
the
morning
or
at
night
at
night
until
the
agenda
comes
out,
and
so
that
affects
you
know
how
you
schedule
things.
You
have
conflicts.
Potentially
you
don't
have
any
of
the
serendipity.
M
I
think
you
know
if
we
want
to
optimize
for
people
who
want
to
go
to
lots
of
meetings
because
they're
professional
itf
people,
it
might
make
some
sense,
but
if
we
want
to
optimize
for
getting
the
work
done
and
getting
broad
participation,
you
know
as
a
working
group
here.
I
look
at
this
and
it
just
looks
like
all.
M
Tired
by
the
end
of
the
week,
people
are
on
different
schedules.
I
don't
know
when
my
slots
going
to
be.
It
makes
a
lot
more
sense
to
go
and
schedule
interims
where
we
can
accommodate
the
different
participants
and
have
a
more
reasonable
slot
length
and
maybe
have
multiple
slots
in
the
same
week
or,
however,
we
want
to
spell
it
out
and
have
fresh
people
who
you
know
it's
not
as
good
as
in
person.
M
M
Constraint
here,
if
the,
if,
if
the
llc
needs
a
revenue
stream
for
the
meeting
to
be
replaced,
somehow
let's
have
that
discussion,
but
we
need
to
understand
that
constraint.
I
and
frankly
I
I.
I
don't
want
to
feel
like
we're
just
holding
these
things,
because
we
need
revenue
stream
yeah.
I
will
continue
to
consider
not
scheduling
meetings
during
these
weeks.
If,
if
you
know,
I
would
hope
I
have
doubts.
C
B
M
B
Mark
just
one
point
is
like
you
know
like:
we
are
specifically
charted
not
to
like
you
know,
revisit
the
financial
model
in
in
this
group,
but
like
it,
your
point
is
like
very
well
taken.
Thank
you
and
amelia.
If
you
can
cut
off
the
line
like
you
know,
make
sure
nobody
else
you
gets
in
and
then
we
just
like
exhaust
the
queue
would
be
good.
D
Stuff
is
while
sam's
coming
on
or
or
atlas
was
coming
on.
I
would
just
note
too
mark
there
were
some
many
comments
in
there.
That
said,
you
know
well
yeah.
Why
do
we
need
to
meet
in
a
week?
Why
could
we
not
just
have
the
working
groups
you
know
meet
in
an
ad
hoc
fashion
that
worked
with
them
and
that's
a
valid
question
to
ask
alyssa
good.
J
So
just
seeing
the
length
of
the
queue
here,
it's
great
for
people
to
share
their
opinions,
but
what
we
really
need
is
people
to
write
this
down
in
in
the
format
of
guidance
to
the
itf
leadership.
So
I
mean
it's
fine.
If
people
want
to
kind
of
discuss
what
their
preferences
are,
but
that's
not
the
ultimate
goal
here.
J
So
I
would
encourage
anybody
who's
gotten
into
the
queue
to
become
a
draft
author
in
this
in
this
working
group,
because
that's
what
we
really
really
need,
not
just
your
opinions
about
what
you
would
like
to
see
as
part
of
the
structure
and
just
to
respond
to
the
question
about
surveys.
I
didn't
mean
to
imply
that
we
were
going
to
stop
surveying
because
we
did
a
big
survey
after
107.
we're
going
to
send
out
a
survey
shortly
after
108,
which
is
going
to
cover
a
lot
of
the
same
ground.
J
But
if
all
we
have
is
surveys,
then
our
decision-making
is
naturally
driven
by
the
majority
and
there's
some
concerns.
As
we've
been
discussing
where
reflecting
minority
opinions
would
be
very
useful,
so
we're
definitely
going
to
keep
surveying.
But
it's
not
the
only
tool
and
that's
why
we
need
the
guidelines.
B
Absolutely
thanks
alyssa,
like
I,
I
think
it's
like
really
you
hit
like
you
know
nail
on
the
head
right,
like
you
know,
we
need
to
get
the
draft
authors.
It's
like
in
the
next
steps.
Like
you
know,
the
goal
is
to
like
identify
somebody
to
start
like
qualifying
this,
so
we
can
have
a
structured
discussion
right
because
even
already
right,
like
you
know,
like
you,
know,
10
minutes
into
discussion,
or
so
you
know,
we
already
see
like
contradictory
opinions,
and
so
we
really
need
to
like
make
progress
on
that.
Okay,.
C
Right
so
ted
is
next.
N
N
So
right
now
there
is
a
draft
deadline
which
occurs
before
the
meetings,
and
there
are
exclusion
zones
before
and
after
the
meetings
for
interims
in
the
common
case-
and
I
would
like
to
add
to
this
like-
is
it
still
a
good
idea
for
us
to
have
a
draft
deadline,
given
that
we
may
be
changing
the
meeting
structure
in
in
other
other
ways
and
add
as
a
question?
Is
it
still
a
good
idea
to
have
exclusion
zones
or
interim
meetings
related
to
these
meetings?
N
And
I
think
those
are
questions
that
might
help
us
start
to
think
about
not
just
what
happens
during
the
week
of
the
ietf,
but
how
the
having
a
week
of
the
ietf
influences
the
cadence
of
other
work,
and
I
think,
that's
part
of
what
we
need
to
start
thinking
about.
If
this
is
going
to
be
online,
only
for
a
significant
period
of
time,
more
permanently.
D
Thanks
yeah
and
in
fact
the
deadlines
question
is
asked
in
two
slides,
but
it's
an
excellent
one.
Mallory.
Q
Can
you
hear
me
great
yep,
sorry
again
about
the
audio
earlier?
That's
embarrassing,
so
I
just
wanted
to
say
that
from
for
this
week
it
has
actually
been
really
useful
to
see
how
it
worked,
because
it's
very
different
than
how
it
worked
at
107,
and
so
I
agree
with
doing
a
survey
now
and
also
it
may
be
why
there
aren't
as
many
well
hardly
any
drafts
for
schmoo.
Q
It
was
useful
for
me
anyway
to
see
one
thing
that
I
noted,
that
is,
that
a
lot
of
working
groups
ran
out
of
time,
and
I
just
feel
like
that
shouldn't
happen
when
we're
meeting
virtually
it.
It's
you
know
going
back
to
the
list
I
mean
things
should
have
been
in
the
list.
I
think
we
need
to.
R
Yeah
hi,
so
charles
cycle,
cisco.
I
wanted
to
mention
a
couple
of
things
in
the
context
of
the
hackathon,
because
I
think
it's
it's
a
it's
a
good
example
of
other
things.
You
need
to
think
about
the
the
hackathon's
one
of
several
things:
that
kind
of
opportunistically
cling
on
to
the
meeting
schedule
and
happen
in
the
context
of
a
meeting,
and
you
know
when
we
think
about
switching
to
virtual
the
hackathon
and
many
of
these
other
things
kind
of
have
the
same
type
of
experience.
R
But
but
I
do
think,
there's
some
value
in
set
times,
because
people
can't
we
all
work
on
everything
throughout
the
quarter
or
you
know
in
between
these
meetings,
but
the
set
time
helps
and
just
to
think
about
things
like
the
hackathon
other
things
that
typically
happen.
D
I
was
about
to
say:
could
you
write
something
up
because
I'd
be
very
curious
to
know
about
your
experience
I
mean
I
I'm
with
you
on
the
point
of
a
meeting
week
or
a
designated
time
is
that
deadlines
do
help
motivate
people
you
know
to,
or
you
know
or
when
you're
getting
together
with
people
when
you
have
to
present
something.
When
you
do
something
deadlines
do
matter,
it
would
be
great
if
you
could
write
that
up.
Yeah.
F
Good
morning,
colin
jennings,
so
I
want
to
hit
the
back.
You
know
the
not
try
and
just
solve
it
with
everyone's
opinions
here,
but
just
sort
of
back
up
to
the
meta
issues.
You
know.
One
of
the
meta
issues
is,
though
the
itf
often
seems
to
think
that
it
would
be
good
about
thinking
out
of
the
box
and
designing
something
completely
new.
It's
actually
not
our
skill
set.
There
are
a
lot
of
researchers.
F
Work
in
this
area,
there's
a
lot
of
things
and
I
think
that
what
this
working
group
should
be
doing
more
than
trying
to
imagine
something
completely
new,
which
they
have
no
resources
and
no
ability
to
actually
test
or
do
the
user
user
human
factors.
Research
see
what
works
is
look
for
things
that
actually
are
working.
I
there
there's.
You
know
millions
literally
millions
of
people
right
now,
trying
to
come
up
with
better
solutions
to
to
this
type
of
stuff.
F
Now,
a
lot
of
the
suggestions
I
hear
about
the
async
models,
yeah,
you
know
like
jeez.
I
could
record
my
opinion
ahead
of
time
and
give
it
to
you
enough
that
you
could
review
it
beforehand
and
then
we
could
sense.
You
know
asynchronously
discuss
it.
Does
this
sound
sort
of
like
submitting
a
draft
and
like
sending
email
to
a
list
or
something
maybe
okay?
The
point
of
these
meetings
is
to
have
these
synchronous.
F
Real-Time
conversations
we
have
a,
and
now
you
could
argue
our
async
stuff
is-
is
insane
that
other
we
look
at
other
organizations.
Some
of
them
are
using.
They
submit
the
pre
comments
ahead
of
time
via
video
versus
72
column.
Ascii,
I
mean
that's
a
reasonable
discussion
to
have,
but
we
should
do
it
by
pointing
out
this
is
working.
We
should
also
get
really
clear
about
the
type
of
things
we're
trying
to
optimize.
What
success
looks
like
I
hear
lots
of
comments
about
you
know
this
week
went
well,
or
this
week
went
poorly.
F
I
think
complete
would
be
my
my
feeling
of
how
it
went,
but
that's
you
know.
Obviously,
opinions
vary,
but
what
are
the
metrics
that
we
use
to
measure
those
types
of
things,
and
this
is
where
we
come
around
to
you
know.
Should
we
try,
like
you
know,
should
we
have
lots
of
interim
meetings
and
no
regular
meetings
or
should
we
have
regular
meets
right?
And
so
my
observation
is
that
the
metric
that
I
think
is
really
optimized
by
a
meeting
like
this
week,
where
we
try
and
put
lots
of
meetings
in
some
time
block.
F
Is
people
work
in
working
groups
other
than
the
one
working
group
they
come
to?
It
tends
to
favor
new
participants.
It
tends
to
give
people
not
a
voice.
The
working
groups
that
run
strongly
by
just
having
lots
of
interims,
which
is
where
they
make
all
their
important
decisions,
tend
to
have
a
very
narrow
set
of
key
contributors
who,
more
or
less
have
a
veto
over
everything
that
happens
and
most
new
people
don't
participate.
F
There
will
be
new
people
and
I'm
not
saying
there
won't
be
a
new
person
coming
into
them,
but
they
tend
not
to
have
that
and
those
known
people
don't
tend
to
spread
out
across
other
groups.
It's
very
hard
to
break
into
one
of
those
types
of
circles
where
the
you
know
so
again.
If
what
we
want
to
optimize
is,
I
have
one
protocol.
I
want
to
get
done
what's
the
fastest
way
we
can
get
it
done.
F
I
can
tell
you
the
answer
right
now
running
meetings
with
no
more
than
15
people
in
san
jose
time,
though,
that
is
the
fastest
way
to
success,
but
if
you
want
to
build
a
large
technical
community
to
build
something,
the
type
of
broad
consensus
that
the
itf
generally
goes
to,
that
that's
not
the
right
thing,
so
we
need
to
get.
You
know
this.
This
working
group
needs
to
discuss
what
it's
trying
to
optimize.
What's
the
metrics,
we
need
to
look
at.
We
need
to
not
invent
things.
F
We
need
to
go
bring
examples
of
things
that
are
working
from
other
places
and
say:
let's
do
that
and
we
know
it's
working
because
we
saw
it
work
somewhere
else.
You
know
every
idea
worth
trying
is
being
tried
somewhere
so
go
try
it
thanks.
D
You're
welcome
and
you
raised
a
super
big
point,
and
actually
that
was
the
last
slide
I
put
on
here
is
right.
Now
everybody
in
the
world
is
trying
different
kinds
of
techniques
for
virtual
conferences
and
virtual
events,
virtual
meetings,
virtual
things-
I
think
it
really
it
would
be
if
we
can
go
out
there,
look
at
what
those
what
what's
happening,
see
what's
happening
in
the
rest
of
the
world
out
there
and
learn
from
those
examples.
Bring
them
back
here.
Write
them
up,
you
know
help
contribute
that
kind
of
thing
to
share
that
with
other
people.
C
So
john
clemson
you're
up.
S
Yeah
this,
this
is
going
to
be
miraculously
brief.
I
strongly
agree
with
everything.
Ecolo
just
said,
thank
you,
fluffy
and
but
want
to
add
one
more
thing
which
I
mentioned
in
the
chat,
which
is
that
we
need
to
keep
in
mind
that
one
of
our
strengths
has
always
been
cross-area
review
and
cross-working
group
review
and
anything
we
do
unless
we're
going
to
give
that
up.
S
Anything
we
do
with
regard
to
needing
scheduling
and
spreading
things
out
needs
to
concentrate
on
preserving
that,
rather
than
making
things
much
more
efficient
for
the,
as
was
just
pointed
out,
relatively
small
number
of
people
who
are
particular
participating
actively
in
a
particular
working
group
and
often
doing
that
by
by
virtuals,
which
actually
violate
our
rules
about
decisions
on
mailing
lists.
D
Thanks,
thank
you,
john.
So,
let's,
let's
go
on
to
the
next
slide
and
in
in
light
of
the
fact
that
we
also
do
want
to
get
to
richard's
presentation
about
stuff.
Maybe
let's
perhaps
take
any
kind
of
key
comments
and
and
this
next
one
would
be
one.
I
would
love
to
see.
D
The
almost
unsolvable
issue,
which
is
you
know,
do
we
continue
to
do
what
we
do
with
face-to-face
meetings
and
move
them
around
the
world
such
that
they
are.
You
know
equally
inconvenient
to
people
at
different
times.
This
goes
back
to
that
meta
issue
of
what
is
a
meeting?
Do
we
need
a
meeting?
You
know?
What
are
the
points
around
that
and
you
know
there
was
the
question
raised
around?
Should
working
groups,
you
know,
choose
a
time
zone
that
worked
for
them,
but
then
to
questions
that
colin
raised,
and
others
pointed
here
too.
D
How
do
you
make
that
welcoming
to
newcomers?
How
do
you
do
those
kind
of
things
I
don't
know,
there's
an
easy
answer
to
this
one.
I
don't
know
that
we
want
to
take
another
half
an
hour
to
talk
about
this,
but
we
could.
But
I
think
this
is
something
that
the
group
needs
to
to
spend.
Some
focus
and
time
on
is,
is
what's
the
right
guidance
to
the
itf
leadership
around
this.
If
we
continue
with
the
current
kind
of
model
where
we
constrain
this-
and
I
see
people
in
the
queue
including
mark.
C
So
samuel
weiler
is
left
in
the
is
back
in
the
queue,
so
I
will
let
you
speak
samuel.
H
Thank
you
to
john's
point
about
cross
area
review,
I'm
going
to
suggest
something
heretical
and
I
would
love
feedback,
particularly
in
jabber.
What
would
it
help
us
to
acknowledging
that
there
is
point
to
that
cross-area
review
separate
that
from
the
sessions
in
which
the
people
actively
working
get
more
done
and
actually
plan.
Here's
the
tutorial
for
people
who
are
kibitzing
versus
here's,
the
discussion
for
people
who
are
writing
code
in
this
area.
I'm
sure
each
working
group
would
do
that
differently.
C
And
mark
you're
up.
M
Yeah,
that
was
a
really
good
point.
Sam.
Thank
you
so
time
zones.
I
have
some
experience
in
this.
I
think
it's
possible.
It
is
I'm
still
surprised
that
we
have
iab
meetings
that
are
covering
all
the
participants
and
causing
some
amount
of
pain
to
most
people.
M
We,
I
don't
know
if
you've
seen
it.
We
have
the
meeting
pain
calculator
which
martin
thompson
put
out,
and
then
I
I
refined
a
little
bit
to
help.
You
calculate
how
much
pain
a
meeting
time
causes
for
the
participants.
M
I
think,
if
you
have
the
ability
for
the
working
group
to
identify
its
participants
and
identify
what
the
most
the
least
painful
time
is
for
that
working
group,
you
have
a
shot
at
it.
If,
if
you
make
it
a
big
one
block,
everybody
has
to
be
in
this
these
these
times,
it's
it's
almost
impossible
and
I
think
that
sharing
the
time
for
a
or
sharing
the
pain
for
a
one
week,
block
of
meetings
is
just
yeah.
That's
that's!
Where
we're
at
right
now,
so
that
that's
again.
T
P
M
That
the
the
one
week
block
is
is
not
a
great
approach.
If
people
want
to
talk
about
rotating
times
to
share
the
pain
I've
been
in
groups
that
have
tried
that
and
it,
my
experience
is
that
it
ends
up
confusing
people
a
lot
more
than
helping.
M
U
I
just
wanted
to
register
a
vote
for
trying
to
support
people
outside
of
u.s
time
zones.
My
my
impression
is
that
that
having
having
like
solid
meetings
that
ask
people
to
to
time
zone
shift
is,
is
a
good
idea
for
that,
but
I'm
sure
that
there's
research
and
evidence
from
other
from
other
groups
that
have
tried
stuff
that
that
you
should
listen
over
my
impression
just
pay
attention
to
that.
D
Yeah,
I
think
this
is
so.
I
think
this
is
a
place
where,
if
people
have
comments
to
the
list,
if
they
have
drafts,
if
they
have
ideas,
this
is
really
one
of
those
that
I
think
the
leadership
could
use
a
lot
of
guidance
on,
because
it
is
one
of
the
more
challenging
ones.
Let's,
in
light
of
things,
let's
go
on
to
next
slide,
which
was
what
ted
hardy
raised
earlier,
which
is
that
you
know?
Do
we
keep
the
deadlines
for
agendas
and
drafts?
Does
it
still
make
sense?
D
D
Let's
go
on
to
the
next
slide
as
well,
and
just
say
there
are
all
of
these
other
elements
that
need
to
be
factored
into.
Just
thinking,
do
we
continue
them?
Are
there?
Is
you
know,
do
we
continue
to
have
plenaries?
Do
we
continue
tutorials
the
welcome
receptions,
newcomers
all
of
those
kinds
of
things,
and
that's
I
will
say,
as
somebody
who
wound
up
being
participating
in
a
newcomers,
meet
and
greet
using
gather
town
that
actually
worked
super
well.
D
D
Do
we
continue
to
work
with
us
go
on
if,
unless,
if
you
have
a
comment
on
this
feel
free
to
put
yourself
in
the
queue
otherwise
we'll
keep
going
next
slide
is
a
side
meetings
question
you
know,
and
this
came
up
and
a
couple
times
this
time:
do
we
enable
people
to
use
ietf
infrastructure,
space
etc
to
be
able
to
have
side
meetings?
You
know
in
the
face-to-face
meetings
we've
had
a
couple
of
rooms
that
people
could
sign
up
for
and
be
able
to
use
and
and
and
get
people
together,
obviously
face-to-face.
D
That's
something
you
can
do.
You
can
have
a
barb
off.
You
can
do
that
kind
of
thing.
We
can't
do
that
virtually
necessarily,
and
so
the
question
is,
or
in
the
same
way,
do
we
enable
space
for
that,
do
we
allow
people
to
do
it
some
way-
and
this
is
a
case
of
this-
is
you
know,
what's
the
community's
sense
of
this?
What
guidance
should
be
provided
to
the
leadership?
That
is
this
something
important
that
we
should
look
at
prioritizing
in
some
way.
C
So
there's
a
couple
of
cooking
with
you
yeah
sure
I'll
live
in
andrew
camping
first
andrew.
L
Hi
thanks.
That
was
the
one
thing
I
forgot
to
say
earlier,
so
it's
good
that
you've
come
to
side
meetings
down.
That
was
the
only
thing
I
think
was
missing
from
the
agenda
this
time
round.
It
would
have
been
good
to
have
a
scheduled
space
on
the
agenda
for
time
me
for
side
meetings,
because
I
think
some
have
been
scheduled
in
a
very
ad
hoc
way,
but
not
using
the
ietf
infrastructure
if
there'd
been
a
time
slot
reserved
for
them,
maybe
spread
over
the
week
like
they
normally
are.
L
In
my
view,
that
would
have
been
much
better
to
to
do
that.
So
I'd
definitely
vote
for
side
meetings
to
be
supported
if
possible.
J
Yeah
just
another
thing
for
people
all
those
people
out
there
who
are
going
to
go
home
and
write
who
are
going
to
sit
at
their
desks
and
write
drafts
of
guidelines
for
us.
J
So
that's
why
a
lot
of
the
other
things
on
you
know
the
side
meetings
on
this
slide
and
the
other
events
listed
on
the
other
slide.
Some
of
them
took
place
last
week.
They
were,
they
were.
We
were
trying
not
to
extend
the
day
of
the
of
them,
each
of
them
the
meeting
days
themselves,
but
that
was
just
a
guess.
So
if
people
have
you
know
a
way
to
formulate
guidance
about
that.
That
would
be
very
useful.
D
And
it
was
pointed
out
in
the
chat
too,
if
you
look
at
the
difference
between
ietf107
and
where
there
were
only
a
few
meetings
scheduled
that
were
there
versus
itf
108,
where
we
went
much
more
to
a
kind
of
common
things.
Those
are
two
different
models
and
I
think
it
would
be
useful
to
people
to
consider
those
different
models
and
say
you
know
which
worked
best.
What
kind
of
thing
were
there,
which
is?
Actually,
if
you
go
to
the
next
slide,
there
was
a
question
around
that
which
is
you
know
the
multiple
user.
D
The
multiple
sessions
simultaneously
question
as
well,
but
you
know
these
are
questions.
We
need
to
talk
about.
What's
the
user
experience,
you
know,
what's
the
and
I'm
not
going
to
get
into
the
tools
discussion,
because
richard's
going
to
take
some
of
that
in
the
next
part
of
things,
let's
not
go
down
that
rat
hole
here,
but
but
that's
the
question,
you
know
what
what
is
that
experience
like?
What's
there
and
and
again
it's
for
some
people,
one
point
of
feedback
was
you
know
if
you're
going
if
you're
flying
away?
D
You
know
it's
one
thing
you
can
isolate
yourself:
you're
you're,
traveling,
you're,
going
to
a
place
you're
there,
it's
different,
it's
sometimes
hard,
and
I
think
many
of
us
have
found
that
to
carve
out
the
time
blocks
to
participate
in
a
remote
meeting
when
it's
virtual
when
you're
also
at
home.
You
have
all
the
other
kind
of
situations
going
on
around
there.
Let's
go
on
to
the
next
slide.
D
The
the
question,
a
big
one
that
was
raised
was
the
the
social
side
you
know.
Ultimately,
a
lot
of
what
gets
accomplished
during
an
ietf
week
is
is
building
connections,
building
relationships,
helping
people
find
each
other
work.
Each
other
discover
do
that.
How
do
we
enable
that
you
know
this
time?
We
obviously
saw
the
experiment
with
gather
town.
Some
people
found
that
worked
really
well,
some
people
didn't
some
people
didn't
try
it
out
all
those
different
things.
D
How
do
we
provide
those
kind
of
spaces?
One
thing
I
found
that
was
interesting.
A
comment
I
heard
from
somebody
was
that
some
of
the
social
sessions
when
they
were
set
up,
for
instance
in
gather
town
like
I
did
not
participate
in
it,
but
I
understood
from
a
couple
of
people
that
the
newcomers
coffee
times
were
were
quite
useful
because
it
was
a
time
when
a
group
of
people
all
gathered
in
a
place
in
gather
town
and
lit
up
their
video
and
audio
and
were
able
to
talk
to
each
other.
D
So
perhaps
a
a
point
that
might
help
with
this
would
be
to
say
you
know
at
this
particular
time,
there'll
be
a
you
know,
a
coffee
break
when
people
can
go
to
here
and
do
this
again.
These
are
questions
that
would
be
great
to
have
feedback
on
drafts
written
those
kind
of
issues.
Let's
go
to
the
next
slide,
the
newcomers.
I
think
that
I
I
would
really
commend
the
newcomers
team.
D
I
I
interacted
with
both
karen
and
donahue
and
wes
harigar
and
the
others
who
were
trying
to
who
were
working
on
these
different
programs.
I
think
they
did
some
really
neat
stuff.
I
had
some
great
feedback
from
a
couple
of
newcomers,
and
but
it
is
a
question:
how
do
we
make
sure
that
we're
providing
onboarding
mentoring
other
things?
D
One
of
the
interesting
points
of
feedback
that
I
had
when
I
was
in
the
newcomers
meet
and
greet,
was
some
people
said
they
were
very
excited
about
having
this
virtual
meeting,
because
it
was
the
first
time
they
were
able
to
participate
because
of
the
the
lack
of
having
travel
fees
and
the
ability
to
go
and
connect
and
and
and
from
wherever
they
happen
to
be
in
the
world.
So
I
I
think
it
is
important
that
we
also
just
reflect
in
whatever
guidance
we
give
to
the
leadership
that
we
talk
about.
D
I
I
I
also
talked
to
a
lot
of
newcomers
that
said
that
the
only
reason
that
they
were
here
it
was
really
their
first
ietf
was
because
it
was
virtual
and
they
could
sort
of
for
the
first
time.
So
you
know
that's,
that's
that's
actually
a
huge
advantage
to
bringing
new
work
and
new
faces
into
the
atf.
You
know,
wouldn't
normally
be
able
to
travel
due
to
budget
and
time
and
strength
or
whatever
it
might
be.
I
I
will
say
that
you
know
with
respect
to,
I
think
so.
From
the
guides
perspective,
I
had
less
people
offering
to
be
guides
this
time.
So
I
think
you
know
there's
a
little
bit
less
desire
to
be
a
guide
virtually.
Unfortunately,
we
didn't
actually
get
as
many
newcomer
sign
ups
either,
but
I
didn't
go
out
and
knowing
I
didn't
have
enough
guys,
I
didn't
go
out
and
really
you
know
ping
as
much
either.
I
will
say
that
the
time
zone
issues
are
a
much
bigger
problem.
I
Instead
of
matching
people
by
area,
I
matched
people
by
by
time
zones,
because
that
was
more
critical
and
you
know
normally.
I
would
try
and
match
people
by
area.
More
one
last
point:
sorry,
it
is
five
o'clock
in
the
morning
my
time,
I've
already
been
up
for
an
hour
and
I'm
groggy,
but
I
didn't
do
some
of
the
newcomers
like
I
didn't
go
to
either
of
the
newcomers
coffees
for
two
different
reasons:
one
one
of
them
was
at
3
30
and
I'm
like
no
and
right.
I
You
know
I'm
trying
to
help
the
newcomers,
and
I
I
just
couldn't
do
it
that
morning
it
was
like
the
worst
of
the
jet
lag
days
for
me
and
the
second
one
I
actually
had
a
work
conflict.
One
of
the
big
things
about
you
know.
Virtual
meetings
is
that
I
try
and
do
all
of
my
normal
work,
plus
the
4
a.m
to
9
a.m.
I
My
etf
work
and
it's
it's
just
a
killer,
so
I
you
know
that
that's
a
personal
choice
that
everybody
has
to
make,
but
I
think
we
do
need
to
be
aware
that
you
know
we
will
try
and
double
duty
a
lot,
because
you
know
we're
not
we're
not
physically
away
where
we
say
we
can't
do
it
right
and
since
everything's
virtual,
you
can
do
everything
virtual
now,
so
you
can
just
have
meetings
all
day.
Long,
like
I
did
this
week,.
D
Well,
yeah,
and-
and
I
think
that
was
a
point-
I
raised
a
couple
sides
earlier
on-
that
point
too.
Is
it
it's
not
only
challenging
for
it's
challenging
for
us
necessarily?
If
we
fly
to
you
know
madrid,
then
we
are
physically
there,
our
brains,
everything
else.
Our
presence
is
there
and
our
co-workers
know
that
we
are
away
and
focused,
but
in
a
virtual
environment
we're
not
you
know
we're
not
there.
We
have
to
both
mentally
focus
ourselves,
but
also
we
have
it's
very
easy
to
have
everything
else
bleed
in
and
our
coworkers.
D
Don't
necessarily
know
that
we're
away
in
that
the
next
slide
is
there
is,
you
know,
is
this
behavior
question
you
know
we
do
have
we
have
mechanisms
that
we've
developed
over
years,
the
autumn
buds,
team
and
other
pieces
for
for
dealing
with
that?
Is
that
also
sufficient
for
virtual
meetings?
Do
we
need
to
do
something
else
again?
Guidance.
Let's
keep
on
going.
D
The
financial
question
you
know
is,
is
you
know,
we've
already
seen
that
here
this
time
with
the
question
around
fees
and
waivers
and
pieces
like
that,
you
know:
what's
the
right
financial
model
in
in
a
in
a
virtual
meeting
space,
what
do
we
need
as
the
basis
as
the
floor
to
keep
the
organization
going?
How
do
we
work
with
that?
What
are
the
roles
of
sponsorships?
D
D
You
know,
and
also
what
kind
of
investments
do
we
need
as
an
organization
for
infrastructure,
and
perhaps
this
would
be
something
richard
hits
a
bit
in
his
next
presentation,
but
but
these
are
questions
that
I
think
we
as
a
community
have
to
come
out
with
with
guidance.
You
know
it
does
take
money
infrastructure
to
run
these,
but
what's
the
right
balancing
point
in
all
this,
I
see
andrew
thanks
andrew.
L
Just
a
briefly
on
the
registration
fees
point
and
ignoring
whether
it's
financially
viable,
because
I
haven't
got
the
numbers
for
that
for
nick's
worth.
I
thought
the
structure
adopted
this
week
was
was
good
if
I
compare
it
to
black
cat
usa
next
week.
That's
a
thousand
ninety
five
dollars
for
a
two
day
virtual
session.
So
for
anyone
complaining
about
the
cost
of
ietf
this
week,
assuming
you
paid
the
full
rate,
it's
really
good
value
and
I
think
there
has
to
be
some
charge
because
otherwise
it
implies
it's
not
valuable.
L
D
All
right,
let's
go
on
to
the
next
one.
Then
there
was
a
the
legal
question
I
think
some
of
which
we've
attempted
to
address
at
this
event,
with
the
sign
in
the
requirement
of
the
data
tracker
login,
to
ensure
that
everybody
who
participates
etc
has
has
seen
the
note
well
as
part
of
that
process,
but
that
that
was
a
question.
Another
question
that
had
been
raised
was
you
know
what
about
privacy
protections?
D
You
know
for
people
who
are
participating
in
different
ways,
which
goes
to
technical
issues
and
pieces
around
that,
let's
keep
going.
There
were
some
other
miscellaneous
questions
that
had
come
up
a
number
of
years
ago.
Things
like
you
know.
There
are
other
groups
that
sometimes
meet
in
conjunction.
They
use
the
ietf
week
to
to
have
meetings
in
conjunction
with
the
ietf.
Is
there
opportunities
for
those
groups
to
to
have
meetings
here
again,
it's
kind
of
a
side,
meeting
question
to
a
certain
level.
You
know
what
kind
of
place.
D
How
do
we
go
and
work
with
that?
There
were
the
t-shirts
questions.
Somebody
did,
of
course,
raise
the
cookie
question,
but
all
those
things
are
there
and
then,
of
course,
there's
the
eligibility
for
nom
come,
which
is
a
separate
piece.
So
I
think
that
concludes
yeah,
because
the
technical
security
privacy
I'll
leave
those
to
richard-
and
my
last
point
was
really
just
what
I'd
mentioned
with
cullen
earlier.
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
other
stuff.
D
Do
that
what
we
can
so
that
people
can
can
get
a
sense
of
that,
and
I
would
just
leave
too
that
I
would
encourage
people
to
think
if
we
could
even
just
have
a
bunch
of
short
little
drafts
that
talk
about
people's
experiences
or
help
with
some
of
this.
I
think
all
of
that
would
be
good
input
and
data
to
have
it
doesn't
have
to
be
some
enormous
draft
that
attempts
to
answer
all
of
these
different
kinds
of
questions.
B
Yeah,
thank
you
very
much
and
like
really
looking
forward
to
the
draft
and
everything
and
we'll
keep
the
discussion
going
on
the
list.
But
thanks
for
you
know
putting
up
this
omnibus
bill
for
people
to
look
at
and
thank
you
like
just
like.
We
have
a
few
minutes
for
questions
if
anybody
needs
anything,
but
I
don't
see
anybody
in
the
queue
so
richard,
if
you
want
to
step
up,
did
you
want
to
share
your
own,
slides
or
alyssa?
Go
ahead.
J
B
Thanks
collin,
like
did
you
want
to
make
a
comment
on
like
you
know,
the
last.
B
C
Yeah,
so
richard
barnes
also
wants
to
present
now,
which
I
suppose
this
adequate
sorry.
C
Yeah
so
because
colin
appears
not
to
actually
want
to
make
a
comment
I'll
just
we're.
Okay
to
move
on
right,
sirish.
F
C
I'm
sorry,
I
just
removed
you
now
so
richard
if
you
could
get
back
in
line
because
you're
the
next
presentation
that
would
be
sort
of
helpful
and
you're,
bringing
your
own
presentation
right
or
yeah.
C
I
need
to
kill
it
there.
We.
C
A
All
right
yeah,
so
I
can
see
it
for
people
so,
okay,
so
thanks
for
the
time
siresh.
This
is
some
work.
I've
been
talking
about
with
my
koi
from
mozilla
thinking
about
the
its
requirements
around
chat
and
how
we
could
kind
of
re-examine
where
we
are
with
the
jabra
xmpp
stuff
and
see
if
it
might
be
time
to
start
thinking
about
moving
something
moving
towards
something
different
and
if
we
are
going
to
start
moving
towards
something
different.
What
would
the
attributes
be
of
that
different
thing?
A
So
I
think
this
group
is
chartered
to
do
functional
requirements,
so
this
this
deck
lays
out
some
initial
initial
proposal
for
what
the
functional
requirements
might
be
with
the
idea
that,
if
folks
think
this
is
a
worthwhile
piece
of
work,
we
could
go
turn
that
into
an
internet
draft.
A
I
would
just
like
to
call
out
my
my
collaborator
here
mike
who
did
a
similar
discussion
of
this
in
the
mozilla
contacts,
as
they
were
looking
for
moving
from
our
irc
towards
something
more
modern,
I
think
they
end
up
landing
on
matrix,
but
we
can
hopefully
draw
on
his
experience
to
help
work
through
this
conversation.
A
So,
by
way
of
background
you
know:
where
are
we
today?
I
think
we're
pretty
much
all
familiar
with
the
java
systems
that
the
ietf
has
used
and
tried
to
use
over
the
last,
while
it's
in
a
lot
of
ways
served
us
well
for
a
while.
It's
provided
channels
for
real-time
discussion,
in
the
background,
largely
as
a
second
channel
of
secondary
channel
to
to
in-person
interaction.
So
I
didn't
typically
tend
to
see
a
bunch
of
use
of
this
kind
of
outside
meetings.
A
You
know
kind
of
in
between
meetings
or
in
between
working
group
sessions
at
well
during
ietf
meetings.
So
it
was
very
much.
I
think,
interested
to
hear
from
people
perceive
this
differently.
My
perception
is
that
it
was
largely
used
as
a
a
chip
back
channel
for
the
the
working
group
session
itself
and
wasn't
used
a
whole
lot
outside
of
that
context,
isn't
used
a
lot
outside
of
that
context?
A
A
So
you
can
have
different
clients
on
different
platforms
that
have
different
features
that
adapt
the
system
to
different
people's
dates
and
that's
kind
of
nice
from
both
from
an
availability
point
of
view
and
from
an
accessibility
point
of
view
in
terms
of
getting
people
getting
it
into
different
contexts
where
people
need
to
use
it.
A
Of
course,
it's
it's
old
tech,
and-
and
you
know
it
has
some
some
old
feeling
edges
to
it,
but
it,
but
it's
one
that
people
have
gotten
adapted
to,
and
you
know
we
have
experience
with
it.
We
know
how
to
use
it,
but
I
think
it's
instructive
to
look
at
how
the
situation
has
changed.
A
It
is
the
environment
in
which
this
tool
is
is
used,
has
changed
over
time,
and
I
think
this
shift
toward
more
remote
is
is
salient
here.
So
as
more
work
is
done
remotely,
these
real-time
chat
systems
are
used
more
in
a
primary
role
than
in
the
secondary
role
in
support
of
so
they're
they're,
more
their
own
thing,
as
opposed
to
supporting
in-person
interactions,
and
the
usage
tends
to
be
more
continuous,
as
opposed
to
the
occasional
support
of
a
working
group
session.
A
I'm
involved
in
a
few
working
groups
that
have
slacks
or
wire
channels,
or
what
have
you
and
and
do
work
more
continuously.
In
that
way,
you
know
as
an
as
an
addition
to
the
the
email
channels
to
to
you
know,
use
chat
to
drive
to
work
forward.
A
You
know
kind
of
the
flip
side
to
the
the
openness
of
the
xmpp
ecosystem
is
that
that
ecosystem
has
not
gotten
a
whole
lot
of
investment
in
the
last
several
years,
and
that's
led
to
a
few
problems.
You
know
when
you
try
and
get
a
jabra
clients
a
lot
of
times.
You
run
into
unsupported
or
abandoned
clients.
A
I
think,
for
example,
the
adium
client
on
mac
os,
which
hasn't
been
updated
in
quite
a
while,
has
a
bunch
of
open
security
issues
that
haven't
been
fixed
kind
of
a
side
side
effect
of
that
lack
of
development
investment.
Is
that
there's
a
lot
of
modern
features
that
are
aren't
just
aren't
present
in
the
clients
that
do
exist?
A
One
thing
I'll
call
out
here
in
particular
is
accessibility,
which
is
you
know,
accessibility
in
terms
of
the
ability
of
people
with
visual
limitations
or
other
constraints,
to
to
use
a
chat
system
which
I
think
is
important
in
maintaining
a
real
open
community
beyond
just
clients
that
there's
limitations
of
the
ecosystem
itself
in
order
to
participate
in
the
iets
jabber
systems,
you
need
to
have
an
account
on
an
xmpp
server
somewhere,
and
the
itf
wasn't
offering
this
so
there's
this
question:
where
do
I
go
for
a
jabra
account
to
start
with,
and
that
is
increasing?
A
And
there's
also
a
bunch
of
stuff
that
has
appeared
in
more
modern
chat
tools,
more
modern
features
that
just
hasn't
been
backported
to
xmpp,
either
because
of
the
clients
aren't
being
very
actively
developed
or
because
they
require
require
protocol
support
that
isn't
there
just
to
call
out
a
couple
of
examples.
A
lot
of
these
tools
have
support.
A
For
you
know:
formation
of
dynamic,
related
groups
to
groups
related
to
a
channel
that
exists,
and
there's
a
bunch
of
these
things
have
tools
for
doing
moderation,
so
both
advertising
codes
of
conduct,
making
sure
people
are
aware
of
them
and
providing
tools
for
moderators
to
to
enforce
that
good
those
sort
of
codes,
so
the
net
results
of
all
this
is
that
it's
you
know.
Jabber
is
a
system
that's
hard
for
people
to
come
into.
A
A
So,
in
light
of
all
that,
we
want
to
kind
of
take
a
look
at
what
the
requirements
would
be
for
a
system
we
would.
We
would
be
adopting
analysis
so
a
business
course
professor
told
me
back
in
the
day.
A
recommendation
to
hold
is
a
recommendation
to
buy
so
you
know
what
what
would
we
be
buying
if
we
were
doing
this
for
an
acquisition
or
a
choice,
to
adopt
a
chat
technology
today
these
were
kind
of
the
five
buckets
that
we
came
up
with
of
of
requirements.
A
A
We
have
to
have
something:
that's
accountable
in
terms
of
being
compatible
with
our
policies,
both
in
terms
of
archiving
and
in
terms
of
codes
of
conduct.
We
have
to
have
something:
that's
transparent,
that
supports
the
the
the
transparency
that
the
I,
the
of
the
ietf
we're
working.
We
have
some
type
of
it's
operable
in
the
sense
of
that
it's
it
can
be
operated
by
the
the
organizations
that
we
have
that
run
our
technical
infrastructure,
so
diving
into
those
in
in
kind
of
the
next
level
of
detail
functionality
requirements.
I
think
pretty
obvious.
A
You
know
we
need
working
group
chat,
chat
group
chats.
We
need
ad
hoc
group
chats
for
things
like
side
meetings,
breakout
sessions
and
we
need
direct
messages
so
that
people
can
talk
to
one
another
more
directly
and
have
perhaps
group
group
dms
as
well
things
like
that,
so
that
you
can
have
kind
of
phone
chat
yeah.
I
think
this.
I
just
see
cullen
pop
up
in
the
queue
I
think
yeah
we
can.
I
was
trying
to
decide
whether
to
hold
this
clarified
question
but
yeah.
A
C
A
F
F
Say
I
I
think
that
we
also
should
have
requirements
around
search
in
these.
In
these
types
of
environments
and-
and
you
know,
there's
there's
a-
I
mean
there-
there's
a
lot
to
be
and
and
and
persistent
right
I
mean
jabber
sort
of
has
persistence,
sort
of
doesn't,
but
that
type
of
issue
I
think,
has
really
helped
get
work
done
where
you
can
find
things.
A
Yeah
thanks
colin,
this
search
is
a
really
good
point.
We
do
have
some
comments
about
persistence,
a
bit
farther
down
the
deck
and
under
another
heading.
J
Also
so
this
might
be
implied
across
these
three,
but
if
we
wanted
to
mirror
you
know
some
of
what
we
get
some
of
the
structures
that
we
have
in
the
itf.
You
would
want
to
be
able
to
have
grouped
group
chats
that
are
private,
so
not
just
direct
messages,
one
to
one.
A
Yeah,
I
I
think
that
is
probably
implicit
when
I,
when
I
think
of
direct
messages
and
a
lot
of
the
platforms
I'm
used
to
using
that
phrase
with
have
both
one-to-one
direct
messages
and
group
dms,
but
yeah.
I
think
that's
worth
calling
out
making
explicit.
C
So
we're
also
having
a
very
lively
discussion
in
the
chat.
Currently
jeffrey
wants
to
make
a
comment
and
put
himself
in
the
queue
jeffrey.
Please
you're
up.
A
Thanks
no,
I
I
actually
agree
with
that.
They're
just
my
favorite
thing.
That
seems
frivolous
about
modern
stuff,
but
it's
actually
quite
useful,
all
right,
so
openness.
So
in
order
for
this
thing
to
be
useful,
we
need
to
get
people
onto
it.
I
think,
what's
one
of
the
things
the
itf
prides
themselves
about
as
being
an
open
community
with
pretty
low
barriers
to
entry,
and
you
know
all
you
need
to
sign
up
for
an
email
list
is
an
email
address.
A
A
Obviously,
there
needs
to
be
clients
for
accessing
this
system.
I
think
all
the
browsers
and
and
mobile
clients
is
kind
of
my
table
sticks.
Obviously,
this
doesn't
exclude
things
like
native
clients
on
different
platforms,
but,
given
the
you
know,
the
the
web
is
not
always
well
suited,
for
you
know
asynchronous
stuff
like
this
on
mobile
platforms,
it
seems
sensible
to
call
those
out
specifically.
A
Obviously,
in
order
for
this
to
scale
we're
going
to
need
some
way
for
people
to
sign
up
without
manual
intervention,
because
we
don't
have
you
know
robust
support
staff
to
support
this
with
administrative
activities
and
the
this
fourth
bullet
here
is
the
successibility
point.
I
Don't
forget
licensability,
so
you
know
we're
gonna
reuse,
some
code
base.
We
need
to
make
sure
that
it's
reusable
forever.
If
we're
gonna
yeah
I
mean
so
the
other
one
that
I
wanted
to
bring
up
at
some
point.
So
I'll
just
say
it
now
is
stability
right?
How?
How
long
are
we
going
to
keep
this
we've
been
using
xmpp
for
20
years,
but
the
rest
of
the
world
keeps
shifting.
You
know
social
media
constructs
every
couple
of
years
and
I
I
think
you
know
we
need
to
think
about.
I
A
Yeah-
and
I
think
the
stability
question
is,
is
interesting
because
I
think
we
probably
do
have
some
aspects
in
which
we
need
stability
for
archives
and
things
like
that.
But
that
may
not
mean
we
need
to
stick
to
the
same
system
for
a
long
time.
So
I
think
we
that
we
should
probably
have
some
discussion
as
we
elaborate
these
requirements
about
exactly
what
dimensions
of
stability
are
important
here.
C
So
we
have
two
comments
from
andrew
and
and
dan
andrew
kampling.
Your
first
up.
L
Thanks
I'll
be
real
brief,
I
I
just
wanted
to
ask
richard.
I
presume
you're
aware
that
at
least
some
of
the
requirements
you've
listed
on
the
slide
so
far
are
addressed
by
the
chat
within
meet
echo,
which
I
think
you're,
possibly
not
a
fan
of
meet
echo
from
other
list
comments,
but
it
it
might
be
worth
you
exploring
that
if
you
haven't
already,
it
does
certainly
pick
up
on
a
reasonable
percentage
of
the
things
you've
listed
as
requirements.
C
Okay,
do
you
want
to
come
back
to
that
richard
or
shall
we
let
dan
york
in
the
conversation
first.
A
Let
me
just
reply
real
briefly.
I
think
there
may
be
a
need
to
capture
another
requirement
here,
because
I
think
the
meat
echo
chat,
so
I
I
am
not
trying
to
be
biased
against
the
media
chat
here
at
all.
A
Just
to
be
clear,
I
I
think,
there's
a
pretty
clear
gap
though,
and
then
I
think
what
we're
pondering
here
is
something
that
exists
independent
of
meetings
and
as
far
as
I
know
that
the
meet
echo
chat
is
focused
on
a
meeting,
so
it
may
be
that
well
make
up
both
ways.
It
may
be
that
we
need
to
get
a
continuous,
not
just
meeting
chat
that
supports
these
requirements,
but
maybe
that
some
of
these
requirements
also
relate
to
in
meeting
chats
the
degree
that
that's
a
different
thing.
C
All
right
so
dan,
you
york.
D
Yeah,
I
agree
with
you
on
the
points
that
you
had
here,
particularly
the
ones
around
accessibility,
and
I
think
you
know
having
us
an
excellent
user.
Experience
is
really
key,
especially
for
getting
newcomers
in,
and
all
that
I
would
say,
though,
on
a
slide,
that
we
have
an
openness.
I
think
there
is
a.
D
We
should
put
a
requirement
that,
where
possible
is
based
on
open
standards
and
particular
you
know,
if
it
happens,
we
open
itf
standards
even
better,
but
I
think
we,
you
know
when
we
look
at
this
as
a
standards
developing
organization,
where
possible
we
should.
We
should
have
a
bias
towards
solutions
that
use
open
standards
in
some
way.
Realizing
that's
not
always
possible
with
all
the
other
requirements
that
we
have
in
here.
A
P
Lear
good
morning,
richard
thanks
for
the
presentation.
I
just
have
a
question
for
clarification:
are
you
thinking
about
a
service
or
a
piece
of
software
or
a
software
base?
You
know
as
as
wait
by
way
of
clarification.
A
Yeah,
I
know
I
think
what
I'm
imagining
here
is
a
service
here
with
whatever
software
that
entails.
So,
for
example,
xmpp
entails
a
federation
of
servers
and
a
collection
of
clients.
People
accessing
it,
something
like
facebook,
groups
or
or
slack
would
be
a
more
monolithic
thing.
C
Okay,
so
also
colin
has
a
last
say
in
this
particular
conversation.
F
Yeah,
so
on
the
meta
issue
here
I
think
that
this
on
all
of
the
stuff
we're
starting
talking
about
the
group
should
get
clear
about
our
feelings
about
dog
food,
so
I'll
be
very
clear.
I
100
believe
our
tool,
like
all
our
decisions,
not
just
about
this
tool,
but
all
of
our
tools
should
be
driven
about
what
is
functional
for
us.
I
could
care
less
whether
it
used
protocols
that
were
aligned
with
the
protocols
we
were
trying
to
develop
and
build
and
bleeding
edge.
I
think
there's
other
places
for
that
now.
F
I
know
lots
of
other
people.
Disagree,
I'm
not
saying
that
that
would
represent
the
community
in
the
slightest.
It
may
be
that
the
community
decision
is
the
most
important
thing
for
us
is
to
use
all
of
our
tools
that
were
developed.
You
know
all
the
protocols
and
tools
we're
developing,
so
obviously
I'm
highly
biased
towards
open
source,
open
standards,
type
stuff
right.
That's
I
prefer
that,
but
in
the
end
I
think
our
metric
should
be.
Does
it?
F
Let
us
get
our
job
that
we
came
to
do
here
done
not
does
it
use
my
favorite
protocol
that
I've
been
working
on
right,
so
I'm
not
trying
to
drive
that
discussion
right
now,
but
I
think
that
that
is
one
of
the
things
that
has
stopped
us
from
being
able
to
make
good
decisions
in
the
past.
Is
we
didn't
agree
on
the
community?
What
our
position
on
dog
food
was.
So
I
think
we
need
to
get
clear
on
that
as
one
of
the
things
this
group
should
do.
A
Okay,
all
right
on
accountability.
I
wanted
to
call
out
explicitly
to
tie
to
our
policies
for
participation
here,
so
the
ietf
has
various
policies
that
guide
participation,
we're
all
familiar
with
the
note.
Well,
there's
also
the
anti-harassment
policy
and
a
code
of
conduct.
A
I
think
one
of
the
things
we
should
be
looking
for
in
these
chat
systems
is
tooling
to
support
that.
So,
when
you,
I
think
there
are
some
requirements
forget
where
those
ended
up
here,
yeah,
so
there's
some
requirements.
I've
put
under
the
transparency
bullet
here
around
having
a
first
contact
experience
when
you
first
come
into
the
system
to
make
sure
you're
aware
of
these
policies.
I
think
this
is
a
pretty
notable
gap
with
with
xmpp.
Is
that
there's
no
on
join
experience?
It
tells
you
what
the
rules
are
for
participating
here.
A
A
Okay,
then
around
transparency
I
mentioned
the
first
contact
experience.
Obviously
I
think
one
of
the
questions
you
could
there
might
be
some
reasonable
disagreement
on
is.
G
A
The
the
logging
data
retention
policy
should
be
here,
and
one
could
imagine
that
you
could
view
the
chat
systems
as
more
ephemeral
that
might
not
need
indefinite
logging,
like
our
email
lists
get,
but
in
any
case
it
seems
like.
We
need
some
sort
of
logging
here,
probably
some
sort
of
retention,
and
I
think
we
do
have
a
requirement
just
kind
of
function
as
it
came
up
in
the
functional
thing.
I
think
colin
brought
it
up
for
having
some
degree
of
persistence
here.
A
So
when
you
come
into
a
space
or
when
you
come
back
to
a
discussion
after
after
some
time
away,
people
need
to
be
able
to
get
see
what
happened
in
the
interim
and
get
the
context
either
for
for
what
they're
coming
into
or
what
they're.
Coming
back
to
comments
on
these
points
do
folks
think
we
should
log
chats
forever
or
people
think
they
should
be
more.
V
V
I
find
that
I
lose
that,
and
I
suspect
that
if
we
had
this
magical
chat
system
that
everyone
really
liked
that
we
would
find
that
a
lot
of
our
conversations
would
move
from
email
to
that
chat
and
I
would
be
afraid
of
losing
that
same
fossil
record.
So
I
think
retention
is
fairly
important
and
searchability.
C
Okay,
so
don
york
also
has
a
contribution.
D
As
somebody
who
has
been
involved
with
helping
with
notes
and
minutes
and
stuff
of
working
groups
to
help
have
a
record
of
what
was
said,
I
think
having
access
to
archive
chat
logs
is
kind
of
critical.
Because
of
that,
and
especially
I
mean
like
right
now,
there's
so
much
great
discussion
happening
in
the
chat
log
and
a
percentage
of
that
is
getting
brought
over
into
the
the
cody
md
in
minutes,
but
there's
much
more
in
that
log.
So
I
do
think
that
having
archived
logs
is
a
is
an
important
component
of
it.
D
I
realize
that
we've
moved
as
a
as
a
society
to
where
we
have
chatting
that
is,
there's
much
more
ephemeral
messaging
or
on
much
more
also
kind
of
mundane.
You
know
we
do
a
lot
of
emoji
reactions,
a
lot
of
different
things
that
are
there
that
are
that
are
not
necessarily,
as
you
know,
as
critical
to
have
an
archive
of,
but
I
don't
know
how
you
get
an
archive
of
the
important
points.
C
So
robert
sparks
is
last
in
the
line
and
we've
cut
cut
the
line.
So
robert
will
make
the
last
remark
and
then
we
need
a
few
minutes
at
the
end
of
the
meeting
to
call
for
draft
volunteers
and
some
other
administrative.
T
So
one
aspect
of
a
bunch
of
the
messaging
systems
that
we're
talking
about
is
they
allow
one-to-one
sidebars
small
group
sidebars.
It's
a
pretty
obvious
answer
on
what
our
retention
policy
should
be
on.
The
group
chats
is
the
answer
the
same
for
the
one-to-one
sidebars.
A
Yeah,
I
think
that's
a
really
good
point.
I
think
we,
the
tools,
I'm
aware
of
at
least
do
allow
for
for
that,
but
I
think
it's
probably
probably
good
calling
out
a
need
to
have
a
different
policy
for
for
dms
or
sidebar
conversations.
Vice
public
public
interactions
yeah
all
right
in
the
interesting
time
I'll
keep
going
here.
This
is
the
controversial
slide
on
which
I
think
I'll
I'll
put
up
here.
A
I
think
the
stake
in
the
ground
I'd
like
to
put
put
down
is-
and
this
gets
a
bit
beyond
requirements
and
more
into
what
we
expect
the
the
llc
staff
to
come
up
with,
but
I'd
like
to
get
a
commitment
here
that
we
are
not
going
to
create
something
new
here
kind
of
going
to
cullen's
point.
We
are
a
pretty
small,
pretty
lean
organization,
and
so
we
need
something
that
can
be
built
and
operated
with
minimal.
A
A
And
not
you
know,
building
coding-
and
you
know
rolling
it
rolling
around
here
in
addition
to
that
that
base
constraint-
which
which
I
expect
we'll
have
some
conversation
on
where
exactly
the
bounds
are
on
that
you
know,
we
obviously
need
to
have
admin
tools
for
things
like
adding
users,
creating
channels
that
go
with
working
groups
say
the
the
same
sort
of
alerting
and
banning
stuff.
A
We
talked
about
under
the
the
code
of
conduct
heading
and
obviously
we
need
to
scale
out
to
a
certain
limits
and
we
need
to
have
security
evaluations,
I'm
going
to
go
ahead
and
flip
through
to
the
end,
and
then
we
can
have
some
discussion
on
these
last
points.
A
A
couple
of
days
that
are
out
of
here
I'll
differ:
I'm
not
going
to
walk
through
these
people
can
scan
through
as
I'm
chatting
here
and
then
these
will
be
in
the
archives,
and
then
we've
got
a
few
candidates
here.
I've
put
some
preliminary
evaluations
in
the
topic
this
just
to
give
folks
an
idea
of
where
these
I
think
these
requirements
point.
A
They
probably
point
away
from
xmpp,
also
point
away
from
a
bunch
of
the
corporate
tools
here,
like
microsoft
teams
and
webex
teams,
the
the
kind
of
the
most
plausible
corporate
tool
would
be
something
like
slack
or
these
other,
these
other
alternatives,
where
there's
a
kind
of
greater
presence
of
of
open
source
and
open
standards-based
stuff.
A
Finally,
the
the
question
for
the
working
group
here
is:
should
we
do
something
here
is?
Would
it
be
useful
to
have
you
know?
Is
there
enough
interest
in
reconsidering
our
decisions
around
chat,
looking
at
new
platforms,
that
we
should
have
a
functional
requirements
document,
and
and
do
it
in
this
working
group,
and
the
other
thing
would
be
useful
for
for
me,
and
mike
would
be
whether
we're
if
we're
going
to
produce
attraction,
whether
we're
roughly
on
the
right
track.
B
Thanks
douglas
and
carrick,
please
go
ahead
and
we'll
cut
your
like
mic
line.
After
that
I.
C
Don't
think
I
think
we
might
actually
just
have
to
move
straight
on
to
doing
the
final
administration
things,
because
we
get
two
two
minutes
left
of
the
meeting
and
as
far
as
I
understand,
we
have
a
five
minute
grace
period
after
that.
But
maybe
we
can
have
further
conversation
on
the
emailing
list,
especially
with
you
know,
requests
to
formulating
requirements
and
use
cases
and
such
and
carrick
for
cutting
you
off
like
so.
A
I
I
will
also
start
a
channel
on
the
ietf
slack
instance,
where
we
can
keep
this
discussion
going
because.
B
You
so
like
going
back
to
our
deliverables
like
you,
so
we
do
have
like
four
deliverables
and
there's
like
not
that
many
drafts
so
like
at
least
for
the
first
deliverable
like
for
guidelines
for
cancellation
of
meetings.
We
do
have
a
candidate
draft
that,
like
martin
duke
wrote,
like
you
know
it
just
got
published
earlier
this
week
after
the
deadline.
B
So
I
think
we
can
continue
discussion
on
that
and
and
for
the
item
for,
like
the
the
meeting,
registration
fees
and
so
on.
I
would
really
like
some
volunteers,
like
media,
has
volunteered
to
be
one
of
the
people
to
write
a
draft.
If
you
are
interested
in
in
being
a
volunteer,
can
you
please
type
in
the
chat
box?
Please.
B
So
the
idea
is,
like
you
know,
like
you
know,
there's
like
really
like
two
prevalent
views.
One
of
them
is
like
everything
needs
to
be
free,
another
one
which
is
like
hey
like.
We
need
to
somehow
fund
the
meetings
and
all
the
activities
like
out
of
sierra
and
so
on.
C
So
interested
in
volunteering,
thank
you
and
exactly
mallory
wants
to
author,
a
draft
on
the
synchronous,
time-bound
email
meetings,
alexandre
petrasco
volunteers
for
a
list
of
tools,
there's
actually
quite
a
lot
of
volunteers
now
in
the
chat
yeah.
Thank
you
very
much.
Thank
you.
B
Thanks
charles
yeah
so
and
so
like
pretty
much
like
you
know,
I
I
think,
like
you
know,
we
have
like
most
of
the
stuff
covered
already
and
like
dan.
I
assume
you're
like
willing
to
continue
as
well
to
help
out
with
the
like
the
meeting
scheduling
as
well.
D
So
yeah
sure
I
can
help
to
a
degree,
but
I
would
love
it
if
somebody
else
wants
to
pick
up.
I
I
have
no
ego
that
needs
to
say.
I
need
to
be
I'm
willing
to
help
somebody.
I
don't
need
to
write
it.
Okay,
perfect.
Thank
you.
B
So
looks
like
at
least
like
we
have
some
volunteers
for
everything,
so
we'll
contact
you
offline
after
the
meeting.
So
thank
you
very
much
for,
like
all
your
help
and
thanks
jonathan
as
well
so
we'll
just
put
the
authors
together
and
we'll
try
to
get
the
early
drafts
out
and
continue
discussions
on
the
mailing
list.
So
thank
you
very
much
like
for
this.
Like
awesome
conversation
and
great
discussions
today
and
like
you
know,
we'll
keep
in
touch
with
you
on
the
list.
Thank
you,
alicia.
Any
last
words
from
you.
J
Thanks
everyone,
I
think
we
we
had
a
good
discussion
and
yeah,
please
those
who
signed
up.
Please
start
writing
perfect.
Thank.
B
You
perfect,
thank
you,
and,
and
thanks
dan
and
richard
for
liking,
leading
the
discussions
through
this
thanks.
A
lot.
Thank
you
haven't
have
a
nice
day
evening
or
like
a
really
late
night,
where
you
are
so
talk
to
you
all.