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From YouTube: IETF110-GAIA-20210312-1430
Description
GAIA meeting session at IETF110
2021/03/12 1430
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/110/proceedings/
A
A
Okay,
wonderful,
so
well,
we
didn't
have
a
meeting
in
the
previous
ietf
and
and
still
we
are
in
this
remote
mode.
I
hope
you
saw
the
agenda.
We
we
start
with
the
node.
Well,.
A
Information
that
you
have
in
on
screen-
I
think
you,
you
know-
or
you
must
know
so.
Basically,
if
you're
aware
of
any
rtf
contribution
covered
by
patents
or
applications,
it
must
be
disclosed
on
a
participating
discussion
and
and
several
other
clauses
here
there
are
the
this
documentation
is
also
in
the
data
tracker.
You
can
find
it
and
explore
the
links,
also
the
code
of
conduct
as
a
participant
that
you
need
to
behave
in
the
way
described
in
the
slide
and
basically
respect
in
concordance
with
the
policies
expressed
in
the
different
rfcs
and
documents.
A
You
know
the
goals
that
we
we
are
discussing
in
this
meeting
about
research
aspects,
not
about
developing
standards,
although
development
of
standards
could
emerge
from
the
work
in
the
irtf
groups
and
more
documentation
for
for
idf
participants
and
and
background
information,
is
there
in
rfc
1774-18.
A
Just
remember
this
is
the
charter
of
the
gaia
group
that
refers
to
a
study
on
from
2012.
So
so
it
has
certain
age
and
and
is
about
the
the
right
of
everyone
and
probably
everything
to
be
on
the
internet
and
considering
also
the
digital
divide
or
the
inequality
as
well.
That
still
nowadays
about
fifty
percent
of
population
do
not
have
a
chance
to
to
be
part
of
the
internet.
A
It's
not
not
only
just
some
matter
of
cost,
but
also
a
matter
of
ability
to
do
that,
and
then
this
is
a
summary
of
the
objectives
of
the
gaia
working
group
about
increasing
visibility,
about
creating
a
shared
vision
about
articulating
collaboration,
about
documenting
and
sharing
experiences
and
research
results
on
the
different
ways
of
of
bringing
connectivity
again
document
costs,
which
are
because
sometimes
causes
a
barrier
and
a
longer
term
perspective
on
on
how
this
could
influence
the
centralization
of
the
ietf
and
then
just
to
go
into
the
current
meeting.
A
Apart
from
what
I
was
doing
now,
this
is
the
draft
agenda
we
shared
days
ago,
where
we
have
this,
these,
let's
say
three
main
topics
and
and
and
the
last
one.
So
I
don't
know
if
you
have
any
comment
about
the
agenda,
any
an
important
thing
that
should
be
modified.
A
So,
if
not,
maybe
we
can
move
on
to
the.
A
A
So
if
not,
we
can
go
to
the
third
item
in
the
agenda.
A
A
The
charter
of
the
gaia
working
group
was
defined
some
years
ago
and,
and
things
have
changed
slightly
or
more
than
slightly
in
the
last
year,
and
so
that
we
can
prepare
and
and
prioritize
topics
for
future
discussions.
So
we
have
time
to
even
have
like
ideally
topic,
specific
meetings,
so
we
can
collect
ideas
and
discuss
and
then
perhaps
elaborate
some
documentation
about
it.
A
So,
regarding
this,
these
are
the
slides
that
I
simply
I
took
the
the
ideas
and
I
put
them
into
into
norm
into
slides.
A
A
I
proposed
several
people
also
commented
about
you
know
when
when
we
introduced
the
charter
of
gaia,
we
were
thinking
about
bringing
the
internet
for
everyone,
but
you
know
this.
I
don't
know
if
you
ever
read
about
sustainability
aspects,
but
there
is,
for
instance,
one
representation
called
donut
economics.
I
don't
know
if
you
know
about
this
donut
diagram
that
puts
together
the
the
bare
minimum
of
the
human
requirements
to
to
participate
and
to
ensure
that
most
of
human
beings
have
a
chance
to
connect
and
to
participate
in
the
digital
world.
A
A
We
can
simply
expand
the
internet
for
everyone,
but
we
need
we
have
to
make
it
in
a
way
that
we
don't
destroy
the
planet
as
we
go
so
yeah
I
mean
the
internet
is
part
of
the
solution,
but
also
part
of
the
problem,
or
if
you
know
the
itu-t
has
some
documentation
related
to
what
are
the
expected
impact
reduction
of
the
ict
world
in
general
by
2030,
which
is
to
be
has
to
be
about
a
reduction
of
about
42
percent,
or
something
like
that.
A
With
respect
to
the
numbers
in
in
2018,
I
think,
if
I
remember
well,
I
think
it's
iqtl
4070
or
something
1040
or
perhaps,
and
and
then
this
is.
This
contradicts
the
objective
of
expanding
the
internet
for
everyone.
While
we
reduce
it
to
half
in
terms
of
impact.
A
So
I'm
not
sure
if
anyone
wants
to
comment
or
I'm
not
misunderstanding.
Oh
okay,
so
you
needs
you
are
asking
in
the
queue
hi.
Oh
yeah,.
C
This
is
nils.
Is
this
the
the
right
moment
to
talk
about
these
proposals,
or
would
you
like
to
do
that
later
in
the
session.
A
No,
I
think
it's
a
good
moment
to
go
and
and
comment
now,
because
we
had
two
other
presentations
and
I
didn't
see
the
speakers
connected.
So
I
think
you
can.
We
can
comment
a
little
bit
as
we
go
and
because
we
can
then
define
better
what
topics
are
interesting
to
to
each
person
and
and
then
we
can
choose
which
ones
we
when
we
want
to
spend
more
time,
because
there's
nothing
as
expected
to
in
the
agenda.
C
Thanks
so
much
so
with
the
rise
of
5g,
but
also
other
notions
of
network
management.
We
see
an
increase
of
computation
happening
in
the
network
and
currently
in
the
network
management.
Research
group
there's
also
a
draft
on
that,
and
I
was
wondering
whether
this
would
be
the
moment
to
give
end
users
more
influence
and
power
over
network
configurations
and
in
such
network
configurations.
B
My
hand
up
leandro,
can
you
hear
me
yeah?
This
is
jane
for
the
record.
I
like
what
nels
is
saying.
It
might
be
very
interesting
to
hear
more
about
network
configuration
and
what
other
users
would
like
to
see
for
more.
B
I
would
say
control,
but
I
don't
know
if
that's
the
right
word
niels,
but
one
thing
I
thought
that
might
be
interesting
for
us
to
talk
about
is
innovative
solutions
for
power
in
some
of
the
networks
that
we
all
are
seeing
whether
they're
small
mobile
networks
we've
got.
We
know
some
4g
networks
out
there
that
are
considered
community
networks,
but
they're
also
operationally
sustainable
private
networks
that
are
using
different
energy
source
energy
sources,
from
solar
to
wind
and
other
things
like
that.
B
So
it
might
be
interesting
to
have
a
discussion
about
what
we're
seeing
out
there.
As
far
as
that
standard
there's
a
group
in
europe
that
I
can't
remember
the
name
but
michael
ogia
is
involved
with
them,
so
we
may
want
to
see
if
we
could
have
a
presentation
there
and
one
other
topic
I
would
throw
out
and
I'll
remember
this,
for
the
notes
is
open
data.
B
D
Speak.
Thank
you
very
much.
I
had
a
little
trouble
getting
in
this
morning
from
a
bad
url
of
some
sort
anyway,
jane
makes
a
good
point,
two
things.
First
of
all,
there
is
a
term
flying
around
called
data
trusts
and
it
has
to
do
with
collecting
the
data
and
providing
access
control
to
it.
You
know
under
the
right
circumstances
and
conditions,
the
purpose
being
to
make
sure
that
the
data
gets
to
the
right
people.
So
that's
a
concept.
D
The
other
thing
on
power
supplies
just
an
observation
about
how
important
it
is
to
examine
each
target
location
and
evaluate
what
its
conditions
are
in
order
to
figure
out
what
might
work
so,
for
example,
if
you're
up
in
the
north
and
it's
going
to
be
dark
for
six
months,
solar
power
may
not
be
your
friend
and
if
you're
in
the
equator,
you
probably
get
a
lot
of
days
of
sunlight.
D
So
one
of
the
things
that
is
super
important,
I
think,
is
as
we
all
work
towards
this
internet
for
everyone
is
to
report
back
what
has
worked
and
why
it
has
worked
or
if
it
didn't
work.
You
know
why
it
didn't
work,
so
we
can
figure
out
how
to
apply
the
learnings
to
the
specific
situation
that
we
might
be
trying
to
achieve.
D
There
is
a
an
organization
called
the
solar
electric
light
fund
at
its
self.org,
and
I
would
recommend,
if
you're
interested
in
potential
solar
power,
that
you
have
a
look
at
what
they've
been
able
to
do.
I
was
able
to
to
help
support
the
installation
of
solar
power
generators
or
electrical
converters
in
order
to
support
some
american
indian
reservation
access
to
the
internet
thanks
to
nsrc
and
matt
rantanon,
who
runs
the
tribal
digital
village.
A
Yeah
we've
seen
like
the
comments
about
the
data,
but
also
about
the
the
opportunities
to
act
also
related
to
the
environmental
impact.
A
People
can
do
indirect
assessments
of
the
impact.
But
yeah
I
mean
it's
transparency
to
act,
to
access
information,
about
environmental,
real
environmental
impact
or
real
power
consumption,
or
even
maybe
more
controversial
like
how
to
combine
routing
and
energy
and
choices
about
your
traffic
or,
as
nil,
said,
choosing
maybe
protocols
or
paths
or
or
options
so
that
we
we
break
the
divide
between
the
providers
of
the
network
and
the
users
of
the
network
which
simply
use
it.
But
they
might
have
a
choice
beyond
that.
A
B
B
E
Okay,
now
just
to
say
that
the
energy
consumption
and
heat
production
about
the
perhaps
some
components
of
actual
internet
like
data
centers,
it's
it's
a
problem
here,
okay,
we
we
have
to
to
take
this
this
this
problem,
as
we
can
do
it,
but
I
I
think
this
is
a
very
huge
problem
that
it's
more
large
than
this
specific
group.
This
is
one
thing.
The
second
thing
that
I
would
like
to
say
is
that
perhaps
we
can
articulate
with
another
another
subsidies
like
it.
E
A
D
D
D
One
of
the
problems
that
you
run
into
when
you're
trying
to
bring
a
significant
internet
capacity
to
rural
parts
of
the
world
is
that
pulling
fiber
is
sometimes
pretty
expensive,
both
from
the
capital
point
of
view
and
also
from
the
point
of
view,
so
there's
been
some
serious
work
on
the
development
of
lower
cost
free
space
optics
and
there's
at
least
one
group
at
google,
the
x.
While
it's
at
alphabet,
the
x
group
has
been
working
on
driving
cost
out
of
free
space
lasers.
D
In
this
case
the
particular
implementation
provides
somewhere
between
10
and
20
gigabits.
A
second
on
a
single
laser
link.
The
the
pair
of
lasers
in
small
quantities,
is
fifty
thousand
dollars
in
larger
quantities.
Let's
say
over
a
hundred
is
more
like
twenty
five
thousand
dollars.
So,
even
though
those
are
still
significant
sums
compared
to
the
cost
of
pulling
fiber
for
data
rates
in
the
10
to
20
gigabits
range,
that's
actually
not
too
bad.
So
that's
another
technology
that
is
worthy
of
of
attention
doesn't
work
in
all
cases.
D
You
clearly
need
a
free,
you
know
point-to-point
shot,
it
doesn't
go
through
hills
and
foliage
very
well,
but
for
places
where
the
atmosphere
is
not
overly
burdened
with
rain,
for
example,
or
other
inclement
weather
and
and
and
have
a
direct
point-to-point
shot,
it
can
be
a
terrific
alternative
for
providing
a
high-speed
middle
mile
link.
A
Yeah
sounds
a
good,
an
excellent
option
to
complement
the
alternatives,
but
maybe
one
one
controversial
topic
would
be
that
you.
When
people
talk
about
neutrality,
can
we
think
about
environmental
neutrality?
Can
we,
as
nil
said
before,
can
we
choose
a
path
that
consumes
less
energy?
Can
we
avoid
data
centers
that
have
high
inefficient
operation
or
it's
simply
a
choice
of
the
network?
Can
we
change
protocols
or
analyze
the
protocols
in
terms
of
environmental.
D
D
There
is
someone
with
a
a
name
that
looks
like
it's
written
in
sanskrit
who
would
like
to
speak,
but
I,
since
I
don't
speak
sanskrit,
I
don't
know
how
to
say
his
name.
His
name.
D
All
right
well
me
and
I've
gone
to
the
data
center
question
for
a
moment
as
as
you
may
know,
google
operates
a
number
of
data
centers
around
the
world
and
they
are
large
and
they
consume
a
lot
of
electricity.
Sometimes
in
the
you
know,
hundreds
of
megawatts.
D
On
the
other
hand,
one
of
the
things
that
we
have
focused
on
in
the
past
decade
is
to
acquire
energy
through
green
means,
and
so
we
have
at
this
point
I
believe,
acquired
virtually
all
of
our
energy
needs
for
the
next
20
or
30
years
from
green
supplies,
and
so
I
would
argue
that
driving
power
requirements
out
is
in
our
interest
in
everyone
else's
as
well.
But
if
it's
possible
to
generate
the
energy
using
renewables,
does
that
change
the
equation?
From
your
perspective,.
C
It's
really
great
that
google
is
now
buying
up
a
lot
of
green
energy.
Unfortunately,
with
that
they're
also
buying
up
all
the
green
energy
that
was
actually
meant
for
housing
and
with
the
overall
increase
in
energy
energy
consumption,
where
it's
still
overall
net
negative.
So
we
should
probably
also
do
something
about
reducing
the
consumption
of
energy
and
step
over
the
idea
of
continuous
growth
and
continuous
increase
in
energy
or
google
could
perhaps
also
start
running
its
own
energy
provision.
That
will
also
be
excellent.
D
So,
just
to
pick
up
on
that,
if
it's
all
right,
the
analysis
here
in
the
us
might
vary
in
other
parts
of
the
world
is
that
the
energy
consumption
is
split,
about
one-third
one-third,
one-third
residential
business
sector
and
manufacturing,
and
the
introduction
of
things
like
leds
has
certainly
driven
some
energy
requirements
out
significantly.
So
in
california,
for
example,
the
energy
use
per
capita
has
been
flat,
despite
the
fact
the
population
is
growing
and,
of
course,
more
residences
and
more
businesses.
D
So
I
think
we
can
look
to
and
encourage
further
development
along
those
lines
where
we
can
produce
the
same
result
with
a
lot
less
energy
and
that,
I
think,
will
help
balance
the
equation.
A
We
have
one
participant
in
the
queue
with
the
name
that
I
don't
even
knew
that
it
was
sanskrit.
Can
you
can
you
try
to
speak
it
and
send
your
point.
F
So
vint
was
right,
it's
actually
in
hindi,
it's
sachin
gurk.
So
that's
why
my
name
is.
I
have
this
question
about
when
we
are
talking
about
the
various
things
like
power
and
all
these
things.
One
of
the
very
specific
things
is
the
protocol
level
things
we
have
seen
that
I
have
seen
during
my
time
in
the
industry
that
everybody's
actually
moved
to
http
and
basically
protocols
that
are
more
data
hungry,
I
would
say:
well,
we
use
pure
text
and
things
like
that.
So
is
there
a
way
to
basically
to
go
back
to?
F
Is
this
any
sort
of
a
thinking
of
going
back
to
protocols
that
we
used
to
have
in
the
early
80s
or
90s,
where
you
had
a
specific
file
transfer
protocol
or
a
specific
protocol,
some
sort
of
a
protocol
designed
for
specific
applications,
rather
than
putting
everything
into
it,
sort
of
on
the
http
and
or
everything
being
on
top
of
http
and
http
being
the
only
protocol
that
works.
So
this
is
just
a
thought.
I
I
don't
know
really.
D
Oh
yeah,
it's
it's
mint
again.
This
is
a
really
interesting
question.
I'm
going
to
give
a
weird
answer
to
it,
because
one
of
the
problems
we
run
into
in
the
interplanetary
extension
of
the
internet
is
our
inability
to
do
kind
of
you
know
high
interactive
protocols.
You
know
the
sort
of
thing
where
you
have
lots
of
exchanges
back
and
forth,
which
we
do
commonly
here
in
our
terrestrial
internet,
because
the
latencies
are
fairly
low
on
the
whole.
D
On
the
other
hand,
when
you're
talking
about
you
know
transmission
to
and
from
earth
and
mars,
we're
talking
40
minute
round
trip
times
in
the
worst
case,
so
the
protocols
that
have
been
developed
for
that
tend
to
be
very
non-interactive.
Let
me
put
it
that
way,
and
so
perhaps
there's
something
to
be
said
for
that.
I
will
say,
however,
that
this
only
works.
If
you
have
an
application
that
doesn't
require
very
much
interaction
at
all.
D
So
the
difference
between
doing
this
video
conference,
where
we
clearly
are
interacting
and
transmitting
at
high
speeds
and
at
rapid
pace,
you'd
end
up
more
like
email
exchanges
with
attached.
Videos
which
are
not
interactive,
particularly
so
you'd
have
to
look
for
applications
that
don't
require
this
interaction
to
have
protocols
that
can
be
bundled
up
in
relatively
infrequent
and
high
latency
fashion.
So
I
don't
know
how
many
you
know:
protocols
will
or
how
many
applications
would
be
suitable
for
that.
But
that's
one
dimension
to
think
about.
D
Well,
I'm
not
sure
that
no,
actually,
what
I
would
argue
here
is
that
you
simply
have
to
start
thinking
in
email-ish
terms
where
you
send
something,
and
then
you
don't
know
when
you're
going
to
get
a
response
back
and
there
are
some
protocols.
That's
okay
for
search
would
be
really
frustrating.
I
think,
as
you
type
in
something-
and
you
have
might
wait
for
hours
before
you
get
an
answer
back.
A
Yeah,
so
maybe
we
can
move
on
and
also
by
the
way
we
can
discuss
about
the
problem,
but
we
also
can
propose
ways
to
work
on
it.
We
are
a
research
group,
so
we
can
do
research
and
we
can
even
think
about
what
the
outcomes
could
be.
A
B
A
B
D
Well,
this,
of
course,
is
a
topic
of
great
interest
to
me,
partly
because
I've
seen
policies
adopted
where
the
private
sector,
for
example,
attempts
to
prevent
communities
from
building
their
own
pieces
of
internet
we've
had
experiences
here
in
the
us
with
legislation,
that's
been
promoted
by
some
companies
to
help
prevent
a
community,
for
example,
from
building
its
own
network.
D
Now,
having
said
that,
I
will
say
that
there
have
been
a
number
of
instances
where
people
have
tried
to
build
their
own
networks
and
it
has
not
worked
out.
The
maintenance
and
sustainability
have
not
worked
in
other
cases.
It
has,
and
so
again
I
want
to
reiterate
how
important
it
is
to
examine.
Why
did
things
work
or
why
did
things
not
work
as
we
try
to
find
ways
of
encouraging
all
kinds
of
implementation
to
satisfy
people's
access
to
the
internet?
D
So
I'm
of
the
opinion
that
that
we
need
to
adopt
policies
that
will
encourage
a
variety
of
different
means
of
implementing
these
things,
including
the
possibility
of
public
funding
which
we're
seeing
here
in
the
u.s
just
recently,
with
the
passage
of
a
very
big
recovery
act
bill.
That
includes
quite
a
bit
of
money
for
underwriting
the
cost
of
expanding
internet
access,
especially
in
rural
parts
of
the
country.
D
So
my
strong
view
here
is
that
that
we
want
to
see
both
private
sector
encouragement
to
invest
and
public
sector
willingness
to
underwrite
in
places
where
the
this
service
might
not
be
fully
viable
on
its
own.
On
the
ixp
side,
again,
it's
super
important,
especially
if
a
number
of
different
networks
could
be
interconnected
for
efficiency.
D
Some
of
you
will
remember
back
in
time
that
countries
in
europe
were
interconnecting
through
united
states
facilities,
and
so
their
traffic
was
the
term
was
tromboning
back
and
forth
across
the
atlantic.
There
was
a
considerable
effort
to
build
internet
exchange
points
in
europe
to
allow
local
interconnection.
D
A
similar
motivation
comes
from
the
construction
of
content
distribution
networks
which
locate
content
of
interest
close
to
the
networks
that
the
users
are
connected
to
to
avoid
the
need
for
transmitting
the
data
repeatedly
over
long
distances.
And
so
I
think
there
are
a
number
of
tactics
that
increase
the
efficiency
of
information,
delivery
and
access,
and
we
should
encourage
all
of
those
wherever
we
can
in
order
to
make
things
more,
affordable
and,
frankly,
more
efficient.
A
In
fact,
also
in
europe,
there
are
some
talks
about
policy
initiatives
to
to
help
in
in
respect
to
what
the
role
of
the
internet
has
been
during
the
pandemic,
that
there
is
interesting
public
investment
to
expand
coverage
and
to
reduce
the
population
that
couldn't
really
participate,
because
there
was
nothing
in
the
middle
to
allow
any
kind
of
connectivity
and
in
fact,
I'm
connected
now
at
this
moment,
through
the
infinite
community
network.
This
is
my
home
connection,
a
fiber
part
of
that
community.
D
So
you've
just
described
an
interesting
phenomenon
that
occurred
in
the
united
states
in
a
different
context.
In
1934
there
was
something
called
the
rural
electrification
act
and
its
intent
was
to
provide
power
electrical
power
to
parts
of
the
united
states
that
were
not
you
know
not
in
the
urban
environment,
and
so
the
low-cost
loans
were
made
to
private
sector
entities
in
order
to
allow
them
to
invest
in
the
equipment
needed
and
the
distribution
facilities
needed
and,
at
the
same
time,
that
same
act
also
supported
infrastructure
for
telephone
service.
D
So
both
telephony
and
electricity
were
provided
through
that
mechanism.
So
that
was
low-cost
loans
effectively
and
low-interest
loans,
and
so
that's
another
kind
of
mechanism
that
can
be
used
to
enable
construction
where
it
might
otherwise
not
be
possible.
A
Yeah,
so
I
think
one
useful
outcome
of
the
research
is
to
show
viable
models
that
reduce
the
risk
or
to
facilitate
the
expansion
of
of
infrastructures
and
enable,
even
I
mean
private
citizens
or
small
companies
to
do
something
that
would
not
be
possible
without
the
initial
support
of
the
governments
and
and
have
a
kind
of
as
a
result,
the
the
rapid
expansion
of
coverage
and
also
all
these
discussion
is
connected
also
to
the
environmental
impact.
A
A
D
List
it's
been
again,
I'm
I'm
feeling
like
I'm
taking
more
time
than
is
my
fair
share.
D
So,
madam
chair,
mr
chair,
tell
me
if
I
should
shut
up,
but
I
did
want
to
respond
to
the
public
internet
commons
idea
we're
seeing
in
the
us
anyway,
more
instances
of
public
internet
availability,
whether
it's
in
coffee
shops
or
in
the
libraries
or
in
schools,
and
things
like
that,
where
the
general
public
also
is,
is
given
access
but
at
the
same
time
there's
a
lot
of
concern
over
privacy,
and
I
would
draw
attention
to
the
ietf's
work
in
this
area
for
opportunistic
encryption,
for
example,
for
wi-fi
access
and
techniques
for
protecting
strong
authentication
or
using
strong
authentication
to
protect
identity
for
for
people
who
are
trying
to
use
public
facilities
to
log
into
their
services,
and
so
a
very
important
part
of
all.
D
This,
I
think,
is
making
sure
that
the
general
public
using
these
open
facilities
is
adequately
protected
with
regard
to
privacy
and
safety
and
security,
and
that
seems
to
be
an
important
mandate
for
ietf
to
look
at
protocols
that
will
achieve
those
objectives.
C
G
Yeah,
the
just
the
correct
one
thing:
the
inability
to
use
non-latin
script
in
email
addresses
would
be
a
a
surprise
both
of
the
people
in
the
iatf
who
who
did
the
protocol
work
for
that
and
then
several
millions
of
people
who
were
using
such
addresses
every
day.
G
There
are
some
serious
problems
with
non-black
email
addresses,
but
they're,
not
the
technology
they're
their
whole
series,
human
interface
issues
associated
with
what
happens
when
you
try
to
use
those
addresses
outside
your
own
community
and
and
while
the
analogy
is
not
complete
our
the
problems.
Several
of
us
on
on
this
call.
Reading
hindi
in
david
garan
script
is,
is
symptomatic
one
of
those
problems
with
email
addresses,
but
but
it's
not
the
inability
to
have
those
addresses
from
a
technological
standpoint.
G
That's
been
available
now
for
several
years,
and
there
are
again
several
millions
of
people
in
there
are
a
number
of
countries,
including
china
and
india,
who
are
using
every
day.
G
A
Well,
this
is
probably
connected
to
the
yeah
yeah
yeah.
F
So
yeah,
I
just
wanted
to
put
a
point
to
what
was
just
said
about
human
interfaces,
so
it
has
been
a
terrible
thing
to
be
able
to
type
in
indian
languages
on
a
typical
computer
keyboard
and
it
is
a
problem
that
still
persists
so
the
way
I
actually
entered
the
form
was
basically
by
typing
it
on
my
phone,
because
that's
the
only
place
where
the
soft
keyboard
works,
so
the
real
challenges
are
actually
about
interfaces
and
the
ability
to
be
able
to
type
stuff
into
things.
F
Although
technology
is
still
there
a
problem,
I've
tried
to
get
hold
of
some
sort
of
an
international
domain
name
system,
but
I
was
never
able
to
get
the
hang
of
how
idn's
actually
really
work.
So
I
mean
I'll
have
to
relook
that.
But
these
are
the
real
problems.
How
do
you
type
in
characters
of
domain
names
and
things
like
that
on
systems
that
are
there?
F
So
this
is
a
sort
of
a
separate
problem
which
is
really
not
an
ietf
problem,
it's
more
of
a
other
challenge
problem
and
that's
what
we're
calling
as
the
next
part
of
the
digital
divide
where
access
people
may
have.
I'm
in
india
and
we've
got
wonderful
access.
Lots
of
people
have
wonderful
access
to
the
internet,
so
access
is
not
that
much
of
a
problem
today.
Rather,
the
problem
is
the
availability
of
content,
which
is
becoming
to
be
the
next
digital
divide.
A
Yeah,
thank
you
for
your
contribution.
By
the
way
I
could
see
in
the
chat
that
people
said
you
you're
not
preventing
anyone
to
speak,
so
your
views
are
very
welcome
and,
and
the
last
comments
about
the
about
the
non-latin
addresses.
A
In
fact,
in
my
place,
we
speak
catalan,
seem
kind
of
close
to
french
in
the
alphabet
and
and
I
volunteer
in
isp,
and
we
always
have
trouble
with
people
that
want
to
use
non
non-ascii
characters
in
email
on
the
left
or
on
the
right
of
the
art
symbol
because
yeah,
even
though
the
standards
are
there,
it
is
in
the
end
not
that
usable
and
that's
really
a
pity,
because
this
is
also
a
barrier.
A
G
Yeah,
I
can't
stress
that
I
can't
stress
that
too
much
the
the
underlying
protocol
technology
for
a
lot
of
things.
Is
there
identifiers,
internationalized,
identifiers,
generally
email,
local
parts,
domain
names
and
other
things?
We've
got
two
sets
of
problems
at
the
user,
interface
level,
and-
and
perhaps
that's
something
this
group
should
be
paying
more
attention
to.
G
One
of
those
problems
is
local
when,
when
companies
design
a
system
and
then
think
that
they
can
translate
that
system,
either
the
the
keyword
vocabulary
or
the
system
or
the
page
layout
or
the
characters
into
some
other
language
and
script
and
culture
in
a
relatively
crude
or
automated
or
artificially
a
stupid
way,
that
often
doesn't
work
out
well.
G
So
there
are
important
issues
relative
to
making
certain
that
user
interfaces
are
actually
and
the
things
which
access
them,
keyboards
included,
are
actually
culturally
reasonable
and
appropriate
for
for
a
particular
locality
or
language
or
culture
or
system,
and-
and
that
requires
work
that
we
haven't
been
good
at
doing,
although
there
are
notable
exceptions
around
the
world.
G
The
second
problem
is
that
when
people
from
one
environment
using
their
own
language
and
script
and
email
addresses
in
that
language
and
script,
are
trying
to
communicate
with
people
somewhere
else
using
a
different
set
of
systems,
especially
if
the
languages
and
scripts
are
very
different.
G
We
run
into
a
different
set
of
problems
and-
and
I've
said
in
other
contexts
that
it's
perhaps
no
accident-
that
that
the
creation
myths
of
of
many
of
the
religions
of
the
world
have
versions
of
stories
about
language,
differences
and
incompatibilities
and
people
having
difficulty
communicating
with
each
other.
G
That
are
attribute
divine
intervention,
and
I
hope
we
don't
need
divine
intervention
to
fix
the
problems,
but
we
at
least
need
to
be
aware
of
them
and
conscious
of
them
and
and
incorporate
them
into
our
thinking,
rather
than
saying
this
isn't
available
in
that
evil.
Thanks.
D
It's
it's
been
again,
I'm
glad
that
john
jumped
in
because
he
and
I
and
others
spent
quite
a
long
time
working
on
internationalized
domain
names
in
the
2008-2010
period.
I
did
want
to
mention
something
about
coping
with
multiple
languages
and
scripts.
I
still
I
agree
with
john.
We
don't
do
this
very
well
in
the
in
the
gmail
application,
for
example,
it
is
possible
to
enter
non-uh
latin
scripts
as
as
email
addresses.
D
However,
I
find
myself,
for
example,
corresponding
with
some
of
my
friends
in
japan,
struggling
when
I
see
their
japanese
script
names
and
not
really
being
comfortable
figuring
out,
which
of
them
am
I
looking
at
because
I
don't
speak
japanese
and
I
don't
read
it
in
particular,
so
we
have
tried
hard
to
provide
translation
of
content
in
email.
D
It's
never
perfect,
but
with
machine
learning
is
getting
better
and
better.
So,
on
the
content
side,
it
has
been
possible
to
provide
translations
of
of
some
degree
of
utility.
That
does
not,
however,
improve
the
problem
of
entering
content
in
a
particular
script.
If
the
keyboards
don't
support
it,
and
even
if
you
do,
if
the
recipient
isn't
prepared
to
deal
with
that
language,
translation
is
still
needed.
D
Translation
of
names
almost
makes
no
sense
at
all,
because
they're
basically
phonetic
strings,
so
so
that
doesn't
work.
So
there's
still
a
lot
a
lot
to
be
done
to
deal
not
with
single
language
environments,
but
rather
multi-language
environments,
and
here
I
think
we
could
encourage
significant
research
and
efforts
in
the
ietf
to
the
extent
that
anybody
has
some
good
ideas
for
tackling
what
I
think
is
a
pretty
hard
problem.
A
A
D
D
And
that
seemed
to
work.
Okay.
In
fact,
it
worked
well
enough
that
I
think
we
ended
up
forming
a
joint
venture
with
other
local
companies
and
then
I
believe
we
replicated
that
in
ghana,
although
I
might
have
had
that,
might
have
that
wrong.
So
if
somebody
needs
to
correct
me
feel
free
to
do
that,
but
I
am
attracted
to
that
idea
that
we
empower
multiple
retailers
competing
with
each
other
to
offer
value-added
services.
So
that
strikes
me
as
being
a
pretty
interesting
tactic.
A
And
then
maybe
the
to
move
on
and
even
the
time
this
slide
is
about
what
things
do
you
believe
we
can
do
in
in
gaia
with
the
topics
that
we
discussed
before
to
to
produce
some
useful
outcomes
for
moving
forward
in
different
ways
like
choice,
write
about
it,
report.
D
Well,
it's
been
again,
I
have
to
leave
in
nine
minutes
and
maybe
that's
all
the
time
we
have
anyway.
Let
me
respond
by
saying
that
the
most
valuable
thing
I
think
many
of
you
could
do
would
be
to
report
on
successes
and
why
they
worked.
D
What
were
the
conditions
that
made
things
work
and
again,
as
I
mentioned
before,
if
it
didn't
work,
please
explain
why
to
help
others
formulate
plans
and
avoid
traps
and
mistakes
that
that
you've
already
uncovered,
and
so
this
is
very
very
helpful
to
do
anywhere
that
that
you
can
cast
light
on
tactics
and
strategies
that
produce
the
desired
outcome,
which
is
getting
everybody
online
in
an
affordable,
sustainable.
A
C
I
really
hope
people
will
also
report
failures
and
obstacles.
They
found
along
the
way
of
changing
power
imbalances,
because
that
will
then
allow
us
to
see
what
the
obstacles
are
and
see
how
they
could
change
either
by
technology
or
policies
or
or
funding
schemes,
because,
as
we
all
know,
and
I've
seen
in
the
discussions
before
that,
no
problem
is
nearly
technical,
merely
social
or
merely
economics.
I'd
really
like
to
understand
and
see
more
about
open
hardware,
open
software
and
governance
from
below
and
community
organized
networks,
telecoms
and
infrastructures.
B
Just
to
agree
on
the
on
the
the
need
for
more
data,
as
vint
and
niels
are
suggesting,
with
respect
to
you
know
what
worked,
what
didn't
and
what
the
problems
were
and
what
the
failures
and
obstacles
were,
so
that
others
can
learn
from
that
there
may
be.
We
could
put
out
a
call
for
some
case
studies.
B
A
Yeah,
in
fact,
I
I
was
part
of
the,
for
instance,
in
the
case
of
apc,
they
do
the
keys
watch
and
and
a
big
part
of
the
work
is
about
supporting
different
groups
all
over
the
world
into
reporting.
Their
experiences
with
in
in
the
length
of
about
two
three
four
pages
and
and
that
helps
a
lot.
D
It's
been
again
one
other
thing:
this
is
a
a
request.
I
chair,
something
called
the
marconi
society
and
we
have
been
having
decadal
discussions
about
hard
problems
in
telecommunications
and
computing
that,
if
they
were
solved,
would
make
a
big
difference
and
so
we're
looking
for
sort
of
like
the
decatal
studies
that
they
do
in
astrophysics.
You
know
where
should
we
go?
Look
next
to
get
better
information
about
what
the
universe
is
all
about.
So
in
this
case
we're
looking
for
hard
technical
problems
that,
if
they
had
solutions,
would
make
a
big
difference.
D
So
we
can
focus
attention
and
research
on
that.
So,
if
you
have
ideas
for
succinctly
stated
problems
whose
solutions
would
make
a
big
difference
in
the
space
that
we're
talking
about
here,
please
send
them
to
me,
vince,
google.com
and
I'll,
make
sure
that
we
capture
those
in
our
marconi
society
report
at
the
at
the
end
of
the
year.
Thanks
so
much.
A
Wonderful,
thank
you,
and
maybe
just
to
conclude,
because
we
are
running
out
of
time.
It's
you
know.
I
realized
that
we
had
one
rfc
in
this
working
group
that
is
dated
in
august
2016..
A
It
will
be
five
years
in
in
a
few
months,
so
we
will
discuss
some
time
about
that,
but
maybe
it's
time
to
think
about
re
revisiting.
What
alternative
network
deployments
is
and
what
we
have
learned
along
the
way
for
possibility
results,
but
also
for
impossibility
results
as
well.
D
D
So
hi
it's
vin.
I
certainly
think
that
would
be
a
practical
and
useful
thing
to
do
so.
You
know
yeah
my
vote.
Thank
thank
you.
B
I
think
this
has
been
a
great
debate
and
I'm
really
it
was
really
great
and
I
was
very
interested
in
it.
So
I
think
what
we
may
need
to
do
andrew
is
take
some
of
the
good
points
here
to
the
list.
I
like
your
idea
of
looking
at
the
charter.
B
I
think
event
does
too
so
why
don't
we
take
some
of
the
the
text
that
we've
got
here
and
look
at
it
and
come
back
to
the
the
mailing
list,
because
I
think
the
whole
case
study
idea
is
an
interesting
call
for
action,
and
others
have
noted
that
too,
and
then
we
could
look
with
the
group
online
at
the
tartar.
Do
some
asynchronous
work
together?
What
do
you
think.
A
I
think
it's
an
excellent
proposal
and
an
excellent
way
also
to
finish
this
meeting
with
something
to
do
and
looking
forward
to
put
together
the
notes
of
the
meeting
and
and
continue
this
discussion
in
the
gaia
mailing
list.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
everyone
to
join
bye,
bye,
take.
B
D
B
Okay,
so
we'll
look
at
the
charter
asynchronously
and
I
think
I've
captured
it
all
and
I
just
want
to
ask:
I
think
we
still
have
the
meet
echo
folks
here
with
us.
Do
I
have
to
do
anything
to
capture
the
chat
or
it'll
be
an
automatically
captured
the
notes
that
I've
taken?
I
think
it
will.
I
just
want
to
validate
that
nils
or
others
do
you
know
if
all
this
will
be
captured.
B
Lovely
john,
I
thought
so
I
mean
I
was
typing
it
I
figured
it
was
kev
this.
This
is
the
this
is
part
of
the
magic
of
beat
echo.
I
love
meat,
echo.
Okay,
wonderful!
Well,
then,
this
has
been
fun.
Thank
you,
landry,
for
organizing
everything.
Thank
you.
Everyone
for
participating,
so
landr
I'll,
be
in
touch
and
we'll
come
back
to
the
team
here.