►
From YouTube: IETF111-HRPC-20210727-2300
Description
HRPC meeting session at IETF111
2021/07/27 2300
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/111/proceedings/
A
A
Why
don't
we
go
ahead
and
get
started?
I'm
just
waiting
for
one
more
presenter.
A
C
B
B
Do
it
if
I
can
share
my
screen.
A
You
can
go
ahead
and
test
that,
if
you'd
like
as
well,
you
just
have
to
request
it.
It's
the
sort
of
the
middle
button.
A
Yeah,
great
okay,
great
thanks
so
much
good.
So
that's
working
all
right!
I'm
going
to
go
ahead
and
get
started
with
the
welcome
slides
and
then
I
think
I'm
troubleshooting
with
the
other
presenter
right
now
so
we'll
see
where
that
turns
out
right.
So
thanks
everyone!
So
much
for
coming
happy,
ietf!
111.!
A
A
As
many
drafts
discussion
as
we
thought
we
might
so
just
a
heads
up
on
that
sorry
al,
I'm
not
sure
what
happened.
My
screen
share
is
not.
A
A
A
All
right,
wonderful,
I'm
monitoring
the
chat
so
joey's
asking
in
the
chat
what
drafts
will
be
discussed
today.
So
we
have
two
current
drafts
in
the
research
group
right
now,
but
they're
kind
of
in
various
stages
such
that
they
haven't
changed
since
the
last
meeting.
So
I
think
that
might
be
the
issue,
but
let
me
get
to
that
in
the
agenda
before
we
get
started.
A
Could
I
just
ask
somebody
to
help
me
with
notes,
because
we've
got
aubrey
here,
I'm
really
sad
to
say:
aubrey's,
no
longer
my
co-chair
I'd
love
some
help.
If
folks,
if
anybody
could
jump
on
the
on
the
pad
and
if
more
than
one
person
could
do
it,
that's
even
better
right,
okay.
So
this
is
the
plan
for
the.
For
today
we
have
I'm
hoping
I'm
very,
very
sorry.
We
do
only
have
one
presentation:
there's
been
a
medical
emergency
with
the
other
presenter.
A
I've
just
found
out
so
andrea
esterhazen's
not
gonna,
be
able
to
make
it
tonight
and
we're
really.
Let's
just
yeah
send
good
thoughts
her
way
it
does
not
sound
great.
Then
we
will
have
key
jeffries
join
us
to
give
a
talk
and
then
we'll
have
updates
on
drafts.
If
there
are
any,
I
can
give
you
an
overview
of
where
I
think
the
drafts
of
the
research
group
are.
A
I'm
not
sure
if
we
have
any
of
the
authors
in
aside
from
me
and
then.
Lastly,
I
wanted
to
talk
just
about
the
research
group
search
for
a
replacement,
co-chair
and
other
outreach,
and
then
I
think,
there's
aob.
Would
anybody
like
to
propose
any
other
business
or
changes
this
agenda
at
this
time?
You
can
just
put
it
in
the
chat
or
get
on
the.
A
A
So
I
want
to
draw
your
attention
to
the
note
well,
which
applies
to
the
irs
ir
tf,
as
well
as
it
does
the
ietf
onto
the
main
points
around
intellectual
property
which
at
this
point
you
may
have
seen
already
and
then
in
particular,
as
well
the
privacy
and
code
of
conduct,
noting
in
relation
to
this,
that
we
are
recording
these
sessions
and
they
will
be
going
up
on
youtube.
So
just
realizing
that.
A
So
we
are
part
of
the
irtf.
The
internet
research
task
force
we're
trying
to
look
at
longer
term
research
issues
related
to
the
internet
in
parallel
to
the
internet,
engineering
task
force,
we're
conducting
research
and
we're
not
developing
standards.
A
In
particular,
we
are
looking
for
informational
documents
in
hrpc,
although
I
guess
we
haven't
yet
looked
at
experimental
documents.
Just
depends
on
what
comes
down
the
pike
for
us,
so
yeah
the
human
rights
protocol
considerations.
Research
group
has
been
chartered
to
look
at
how
internet
protocols
can
either
strengthen
or
threaten
human
rights,
and
vice
versa,
as
defined
in
both
the
universal
declaration
of
human
rights
and
the
iccpr.
A
We've
got
the
objectives
that
we're
trying
to
expose,
or
at
least
make
raise
awareness
about
the
relationship
between
protocols
and
human
rights,
and
we
specifically
are
looking
at
the
rights
to
freedom
of
expression
and
freedom
of
assembly.
A
So
you'll
note
that
that
is
where
a
lot
of
our
drafts
are
focused
and
a
lot
of
the
discussion
is
focused.
Our
talks
often
have
touch
on
those
main
elements.
A
We
also
have
we're
attempting
to
propose
guidelines
as
to
be
as
helpful
as
possible
to
those
doing
the
work
of
creating
protocols
and
setting
standards
is
a
human
rights
enabling
environment,
but
also
we
imagine
that
there
are
threats
to
that,
and
so
we
also
consider
privacy
implications
such
as
those
in
rfc,
6973
and
yeah.
We
also
do
great
a
great.
A
A
lot
of
us
involved
in
this
research
group
are
active
elsewhere
in
other
internet
governance
fora
and
and
so
on,
because
we
feel
that
there's
a
lot
to
do
elsewhere
to
raise
awareness
about
these
issues.
So
so
we
tend
to
do
a
lot
in
this
research
group
that
is
not
always
internal
to
the
ietf
and
irtf
community.
A
A
There
are
folks
who
published
on
similar
intangential
topics
in
policy
and
academic
papers
that
are
making
these
connections
as
well.
It'd
be
great
just
as
a
call
out.
Maybe
we
can
put
this
in
the
notes
for
folks
to
share
those
papers
more
often
in
the
list.
I've
noticed
we've
got
kind
of
thin
list
traffic
at
the
moment,
whereas
before
I
think
we
celebrated
and
discussed
sources
from
elsewhere
in
the
list
more
often,
I
can
do
a
better
job
of
that
myself.
A
A
We
could
think
about
future
efforts
on
that
and
like
we,
if
you,
if
you
came
to
our
last
session
at
110,
we
also
have
been
working
on
data
analysis
and
visualization
for
network
measurement,
but
also
the
way
that
the
community
communicates
about
these
various
things
and
if
you'll
have
you'll
have
seen,
and
if
you
haven't,
you
can
go
on
youtube
and
watch
it
sebastian
benthal's,
big
bang,
big
bang,
project
and
then
yeah
from
time
to
time.
A
We
use
these
guidelines
and
other
things
that
we're
developing
to
help
actually
analyze
protocols
or
standards
against
their
human
rights
impacts.
So
that's
what
hrpc
tries
to
put
out
and
here's
some
concrete
milestones
and
things
we've
done.
There
may
be
some
things
we
could
add
to
this,
but
this
slide
has
been
this
way
for
a
long
time.
So
we
were,
we
were
chartered.
A
We
had
the
film
we,
we
have
an
rfc
8280
on
research
into
human
rights
protocol
considerations,
which
really
lays
the
groundwork
for
future
work
diving
more
deeply
into
some
of
those
sections
right
now
as
it
stands,
we
have
two
active
internet
drafts.
One
is
on
freedom
of
association
on
the
internet
and
that
one,
as
far
as
I
know,
hasn't
changed
much.
We've
had
some
list
discussion.
It's
actually
quite
rather
ready,
for,
I
think
last
call
we'll
see
we
haven't.
A
So
yes,
so,
let's
move
on
to
our
speakers
again,
unfortunately,
henriette
is
unable
to
join
us.
She
would
have
been
presenting
to
us
how
to
get
involved
in
or
what
the
internet
governance
forum
does.
I
think
there
are
many
of
us
that,
like
I
was
saying
before,
do
a
lot
outside
of
the
ietf
irtf
and
the
internet
governance
forum
is
one
of
those
key
venues
so
I'll
just
sort
of
summarize
what
her
talk
would
have
been
about,
and
that
was
she's.
A
So
we
still
have
time
we
might
be
able
to
get
unreact
here
in
november
at
the
112
meeting
to
present
a
similar
thing,
but
it
just
would
be
very
short
notice
for
folks
that
maybe
get
excited
about
it,
want
to
get
involved
and
then
have
a
month
to
plan
travel
or
not.
It'll,
probably
be
virtual,
if
I'm
honest,
but
then
we
do
have.
We
do
have
keith
jeffries
here
he
is
the
cto
of
oxen
and
the
author
of
the
session.
A
Secure
messenger
white
paper
he's
deeply
experienced
in
cryptography
and
security
design,
and
so
we're
going
to
have
that
talk
start
in
just
a
moment.
I
think
that's,
I
think,
that's
it.
Let
me
just
check
the
chat.
There's
been
no
action
so
key.
If
you
want
to
go
ahead,
I'm
going
to
stop
sharing
my
screen.
You
can
come
on
up.
C
Yeah
I'll
just
I'll
just
this.
B
And
you
guys
can
see
the
slides
as
well
yep,
okay,
great
so
yeah.
Today,
I'm
going
to
be
talking
about
session,
which
is
a
private
messaging
application,
and
I
guess
how
that
relates
to
some
of
the
human
rights
considerations
that
we
that
were
spoken
about
earlier
so
yeah,
as
we
mentioned
before,
I'm
the
cto
of
sessions.
B
So
the
things
I'm
going
to
talk
about
today,
I'm
going
to
try
and
cover
some
of
the
key
features
of
the
session
protocol,
so
what
it
actually
does,
what
the
application
provides
to
users,
some
information
about
the
kind
of
low
latency
routing
network
that
we've
built,
which
provides
kind
of
privacy
to
users
and
some
of
the
importance
of
how
that
relates
to
human
rights
defenders
and
how
we
actually
get
privacy
for
users
there.
B
Some
technical
challenges
will
be
talked
about
some
other
uses
for
the
session
protocol
and
then
I'll
link
up
to
the
open
source
repositories
that
we
have.
If
you
want
to
contribute
code
or
if
you
just
want
to
have
a
look
into
what
we've
been
doing
over
on
github,
so
yeah
and
then
we'll
have
a
little
q
a
if
you
want
to
have.
If
you
want
to
ask
any
questions,
so
yeah
we'll
just
jump
right
into
it.
B
So
when
we
think
about
designing
for
human
rights
at
session,
we're
trying
to
think
about
three
kind
of
major
things.
So
the
the
three
things
that
we
think
about
is
protecting
the
right
free
speech,
protecting
censorship
and
protecting
the
right
privacy.
B
These
kind
of
translate
into
the
technical
details
of
the
protocol,
but
I
think
it's
important
to
point
out
initially
that
for
us
protecting
the
right
to
privacy
actually
offers
some
of
the
other
rights
underneath
that.
So,
if
we
don't
know
who
the
users
are
that
are
sending
messages
or
who
they're
sending
messages
to
or
the
contents
in
those
messages
that
they're
sending,
then
it
follows
on
that.
B
We
wouldn't
be
able
to
censor
those
messages
because
we
don't
actually
know
what
they
are
or
who
they're
being
sent
to,
so
protecting
the
right
to
privacy
actually
offers
some
of
the
rights
underneath
that
which
would
be
preventing
censorship
and
and
protecting
the
right
to
free
speech.
So
for
us
we
really
focus
on
protecting
the
right
for
privacy
to
privacy
as
the
first
kind
of
thing
that
we
look
at
and
then
other
other
rights
follow
on
from
that.
B
So
what
is
the
session
protocol?
What
is
session?
It's
a
messaging
app.
I
don't
know,
I
probably
can
show
you
my
my
desktop
client
here.
If
you
can
see
that
it's
a
messaging
application
just
like
other
messaging
applications
that
allows
you
to
kind
of
connect
with
people
all
over
the
world.
It's
enter.
B
It
has
a
onion
router
designed
into
it.
So
when
you
send
messages,
you're,
not
directly
exposing
your
ip
address
to
any
servers
in
the
network
or
the
service
that
you
are
exposing
your
ip
address
to
it's
only
one
of
the
servers
instead
of
the
actual
server.
Where
you
deposit
your
message:
it's
got
a
decentralized
server
infrastructure.
So
it's
got
a
different.
It's
got
a
differentiating
factor
from
something
like
telegram
or
signal,
whether
it's
either
a
centralized
server
or
a
group
of
servers
run
by
a
central
entity
that
provide
the
messaging
service.
B
Instead,
we
have
a
network
of
1800
servers
that
can
be
run
by
individual
different
individuals
and
it's
anonymous
sign
up,
so
it
doesn't
require
any
mobile
phone
number.
Any
email
address
any
kind
of
real
world
identifier
that
would
connect
you
to
your
real
world
identity.
B
It's
all
based
on
something
called
a
session
id
which
I
can
show
you
is
right
here.
This
is
my
session
id,
so
it's
a
string
of
numbers
and
letters
that
you
can
use
to
message.
Anyone,
okay,
so
jump
onto
the
next
slide.
B
So
yeah,
as
I
spoke
about
before
anonymous
sign
up,
is
like
probably
one
of
the
features
that
people
talk
about
most
with
session
and
I
think
it's
one
of
the
ones
that
relates
to
human
rights
defenders,
the
most
as
well,
we'll
often
find
in
in
countries
with
very
despotic
regimes
or
even
countries
that
are,
you
know,
like
australia,
for
example,
to
get
a
mobile
phone
number.
You
actually
have
to
provide
your
passport
or
a
driver's
license,
or
some
sort
of
identifying
information.
B
So
as
soon
as
you
have
a
messenger
which
requires
you
to
use
a
phone
number
to
sign
up
that
disconnects
you
from
some
of
the
anonymity
that
that
messages
can
provide.
So
the
way
that
we
do
it
is,
we
just
generate
an
mp5519
public
private
key
pair
on
the
device
when
the
person
starts
the
device
and
that's
a
completely
unique
identifier
for
the
user,
but
it
can
be
instantly
set
up
and
it's
not
connected
to
any
real
world
identity
that
that
user
might
have.
B
We
allow
the
user
to
back
that
up
as
well
with
the
seed
so
similar
to
if
anyone's
interacted
with
bitcoin.
Here,
when
you
generate
a
wallet,
you
get
a
25
word
seed
and
you
can
carry
that
around
with
you
anywhere.
That's
the
same
in
session,
so
your
messaging
account
is
actually
linked
to
your
25
word
seed
and
you
can
use
that
to
move
your
account
wherever
you
want.
B
So,
even
if
I
was
to
completely
delete
my
session
client
and
all
of
the
messages
associated
with
it,
I
would
still
be
able
to
grab
that
seed
go
to
another
computer
input
that
seed
and
I'd
be
able
to
get
my
identity
back,
which
is
you
know,
essentially
my
my
public
private
key
pair.
I
might
not
have
all
of
my
messages,
but
you'll
still
be
able
to
recover
your
identity
with
that
seed
and
obviously
the
other
thing
it
gives.
B
You
is
a
session
id,
which
is
this
long
string
down
here
of
alphanumeric
numbers
and
letters,
which
is
your
identity
on
the
network
and
your
public
identifier,
that
people
can
use
to
reach
out
to
you
and
send
you
new
messages,
so
end-to-end
encryption.
This
is
an
obvious
one
for
messengers,
especially
for
us
as
well,
because
we
don't
have
a
kind
of
centralized
server
where
all
of
the
messages
are
held
and
there's
some
trusted
entity
that
holds
those
messages
for
us.
B
We
have
a
decentralized
network,
so
it's
important
that
the
information
that
flows
across
that
decentralized
network
is
empty
and
encrypted
so
that
the
nodes
that
are
dealing
with
that
information
can't.
Actually,
you
know
inspect
and
see
what's
inside
and
see
the
messages
that
are
flowing
through
the
system,
so
for
that
we
use
lipsodium.
B
Our
encryption
protocol
is
like
extremely
simple,
and
most
of
that
is
related
to
the
fact
that
we're
a
decentralized
network,
so
we
don't
have
some
guarantees
around
delivery.
That
networks,
like
signal
or
telegram,
would
have
to
build
a
more
complex
style,
ratcheting
system
where
keys
are
constantly
updated.
So
instead
we
fall
back
to
kind
of
a
simpler
system
that
works
better
over
over
a
decentralized
network.
B
So
yeah,
it's
stateless.
It's
extremely
simple.
It's
just
two
calls
to
lip
sodium
one
for
authentication,
one
for
encryption
and
it's
suited
for
our
network,
but
still
provides
the
properties
that
you
would
want
in
an
encryption
protocol
to
be
able
to
protect
the
authentication
of
a
message
and
obviously
the
encryption
so
that
only
the
two
devices
that
are
involved
in
the
conversation
can
read.
D
B
And
they
also
know
that
they're
talking
to
the
person
that
they
think
they
are
so
yeah
decentralization.
We
spoke
about
that
before
on
the
on
the
left.
Here
you
can
see
kind
of
a
diagram
of
like
a
typical
network,
and
that
might
be
telegram
or
signal
or
whatsapp,
something
like
that
and
then
on
the
right.
You
can
see
a
more
decentralized
network
layout
where
the
clients
here,
which
are
the
the
smaller
kind
of
dots
that
aren't
outlined
here,
connecting
to
servers
they
might
even
be
connecting
to
each
other.
B
This
doesn't
necessarily
happen
in
session.
Typically,
it's
a
client
server
layout.
It's
just
that
the
servers
themselves
are
decentralized,
so
there's
actually
1800
of
those
servers
that
are
run
by
community
participants,
mostly
for
a
small
cryptocurrency
reward,
and
those
are
the
nodes
that
actually
store
the
messages
in
the
system,
and
we
have
also
a
system
of
breaking
up
those
session.
Ids
that
you
saw
earlier
into
different
swarms
and
swarms
are
basically
like
collections
of
nodes
which
are
able
to
store
your
messages
for
you.
B
Ensuring
redundancy
in
the
network
and
obviously
the
the
the
good
thing
about
decentralization
is
there
is
there
is
an
essential
point
of
failure,
so
in
the
centralized
model.
If
I
cut
this
server
off
whether
that
be
that
service
running
in
a
country
that
doesn't
like
the
messaging
service
or
the
messaging,
the
the
country
that
I'm
in
blocks
the
actual
centralized
server,
then
I
can
no
longer
access
this,
whereas
in
the
decentralized
model.
B
As
long
as
I
have
access
to
one
of
these
servers,
I
should
be
able
to
move
through
the
network
through
that
one
server,
so
it's
less
less
essential
points
and
less
of
a
honeypot
also
being
created
as
well.
If
you
spread
the
useful
data
of
the
network
over
hundreds
of
nodes
instead
of
a
single
node,
then
it's
a
lot
easier.
It's
a
lot
more
difficult
for
a
passive
kind
of
surveillance
attack
where
you
just
you
know,
sit
here
and
look
at
all
of
the
messages
that
are
going
through
this
node.
B
We're
just
gonna
have
a
civil
war,
so
onion
routing,
most
of
most
of
you
probably
would
have
heard
about
onion
routing
in
the
context
of
tor,
which
is
an
onion
router,
but
there's
actually
multiple
onion
routers
out
there
that
are
deployed.
You
can
look
at
something
like
itp,
but
we
have
also
developed
our
own
kind
of
onion
routing
system
which
uses
that
decentralized
network
of
nodes
that
I
was
speaking
about
before.
B
So
essentially,
it
allows
you
to
encrypt
the
data
for
a
destination
where
the
destination
is
being
wrapped
in
multiple
layers
of
encryption
and
then
being
bounced
through
multiple
nodes
to
ensure
that
your
ip
address
is
never
exposed
directly
to
the
recipient
of
the
message
or
even
directly,
to
the
the
server.
That's
holding
the
message
in
this
case
so
yeah.
This
is
important
to
protect
against
attacks
where
isps
might
see
who
you're
directly
connecting
to
or
the
person,
who's,
storing
or
retrieving.
B
The
message
from
the
server
that
you
put
it
on
doesn't
know
your
ip
at
ip
address
directly
with
onion
routing,
and
this
is
obviously
just
part
of
a
bigger
picture
which
is
minimizing
the
metadata
in
session.
So
your
ip
address
is
another
piece
of
metadata
that
we
try
to
remove
from
the
system
as
well
as
something
like
a
real
world
identifier
like
a
mobile
phone
number,
which
we
also
try
to
remove
from
the
system
as
well.
So
yeah
there's
some
more
information
online
about
that.
B
So
I
think
one
of
the
kind
of
biggest
points
that
people
fail
to
understand
when
they're
trying
to
create
a
new
kind
of
novel
messenger
technology
is
that
it
does
really
need
to
focus
on
accessibility
and
usability,
and
that's
something
that
we
have
really
tried
to
design
for
over
the
course
of
creating
sessions.
Something
that
was
really
important
to
us.
Originally
was
that
we'd
be
open
source
and
we
still
are
open
source
to
this
day.
B
All
of
our
repositories,
and
I
think
that
that
really
kind
of
creates
or
breaks
down
the
barrier
to
entry
to
contributing
code
to
the
the
repositories
so
we're
largely
based
in
australia
in
the
us,
and
that
gives
us
a
definitely
a
particular
perspective
on
how
messengers
can
be
designed.
But
allowing
the
source
code
to
be
open
source
allows
anyone
from
any
cultural
background
to
contribute
to
the
source
code
and
and
share
their
perspective
about
how
they
think
a
messenger
should
be
designed.
And
that's.
B
That
we
take
onto
into
account
as
well
by
reading
through
issues
that
people
file
with
us
and
just
recommendations
that
people
put
out
there
in
terms
of
how
we
should
be
designing.
Our
software
localization
has
been
a
focus
as
well,
so
we've
just
started
using
crowding,
which
is
a
translation
software
which
allows
users
to
kind
of
it,
allows
them
for
a
really
user
friendly
way
to
translate
applications.
So
we've
been
doing
that
as
well.
B
I
think
sessions
available
in
nearly
30
languages
now
and
something
that
we've
also
thought
about,
and
these
kind
of
three
points
grouped
together,
which
is
like
emulating
a
popular
application,
user
experience,
removing
confusing
options
and
simplicity
all
of
these
kind
of
go
together.
I
think
the
main
thing
here
is
like,
if
you
want
your
application,
especially
messaging
applications,
because
they're
built
off
this
network
effect.
B
If
you
want
it
to
be
adopted
and
it's
a
technical
leap
forward,
it
should
still
maintain
the
simplicity
of
some
of
the
applications
out
there
that
billions
of
people
use.
For
example,
whatsapp
has
a
very
nice
user
experience
for
most
people
and
and
tailoring
a
messaging
application
to
be
more
like
that,
while
hiding
all
of
the
technical
details
about
how
it's
good
behind
the
scenes,
I
think
has
always
been
something
that
we've
been
thinking
about.
B
So
if
I
pop
up
my
little
session
client
here,
you
can
see
like
the
only
indication
that
I'm
onion
routing
is
this
little
like
button
here,
which
shows
me
like
the
different
nodes
that
I'm
being
unrouted
through
here,
but
it's
like
hidden.
You
don't
need
to
know
anything
to
know
that
we're
only
routing
here,
particularly
you
just
need
to
you,
just
need
to
turn
on
the
client,
and
it
does
all
of
that
in
the
background.
B
So
yeah
really
designing
for
simplicity
so
that
people
don't
really
need
to
know
what's
happening
fully
behind
the
scenes,
but
they're
still
getting
that
privacy
in
their
conversations
or
they're
still
getting
that
effective,
onion
routing
without
necessarily
needing
to
know
what
exactly
it
is
so
yeah.
Some
of
the
future
challenges
I
mean,
there's
been
a
lot
of
stuff
like
building
a
decentralized
unrouted
antenna
encrypted
messenger
is
a
massive
handful.
There's
a
lot
of
stuff
that
we've
been
looking
at
here,
so
replacing
onion
requests
with
a
stream
based
on
your
ad.
B
This
has
been
one
of
the
biggest
things
so
right
now.
The
protocol
we
use
for
essentially
sending
messages
and
making
sure
that
they're
unrouted
is
something
called
onion
request
and
that's
basically
like
a
single
shot
request.
That's
sent
down.
B
It
would
be
very
easy
for
us
to
put
in
like
a
peer-to-peer
protocol
where
we,
just
you
know,
have
have
peer-to-peer
voice,
calling
through
webrtc
or
there's
a
various
other
methods
as
well.
But
we
really
want
to
be
able
to
provide
voice,
calling,
while
still
onion
routing
the
connection
of
the
user,
so
that
they're
not
revealing
their
ip
address
to
the
person
that
they're
calling,
which
would
be
a
which
would
happen
with
a
peer-to-peer
call.
B
So
yeah
we're
looking
at
integrating
loca
net,
which
is
another
software
that
we've
built
into
session,
which
allows
for
onion
routed
udp
streams.
So
that
would
allow
us
to
do
voice
calling
over
an
onion
router.
That's
still
in
its
initial
development
and
we're
trying
to
look
at
whether
webrtc
is
going
to
work
well
with
lokinet
right
now.
That's
one
of
the
investigations
that
we're
looking
into,
I
think
usability
enhances,
as
I
spoke
about
before.
Accessibility
or
usability,
is
like
a
very
important
thing,
and
we.
B
And
reacts
and
the
performance
of
session
is
maybe
slower
than
a
lot
of
the
existing
kind
of
applications
out
there
like
whatsapp
or
telegram
so
really
working
on
that
usability
front,
I
think,
is
super
important
and
something
that
we're
trying
to
like
look
at
and
a
problem
that
we're
trying
to
solve
as
well
just
by
throwing
developer
resources
at
it.
Basically,
right
now
and
yeah
technical
testing
and
feedback
is
another
thing.
B
That's
really
it's
been
hard
as
well,
because
the
ethos
of
the
project
is
really
to
collect
as
as
minimal
data
from
users
as
possible
and
when
you
start
putting
things
inside
of
the
application
which
are
tracking
how
users
use
the
application
to
provide
them
a
better
experience.
B
That's
obviously
violating
your
some
of
your
core
ethos,
so
we've
really
tried
to
move
towards
like
a
voluntary
interaction
with
the
user,
so
that
you
know
if
they
want
to
give
us
extra
data
about
their
use
or
if
they
want
to
reach
out
to
us
and
file
an
issue
or
if
we
can
provide
them
some
way
or
if
we
can
survey
them
some
way
in
the
application,
but
always
having
voluntary
interactions.
With
the
user
to
make
sure
that
they're,
okay
sharing
this
data
with
us,
so
that
we
can
improve
the
experience
of
the
application.
B
So
that's
something
that
we've
really
started
focusing
on
over
the
last
probably
a
couple
months
or
something
just
trying
to
to
get
feedback
about
which
parts
of
the
application
people
use,
which
parts
they
want
improved
and
yeah.
So
there's
some.
There
is
naturally
some
other
uses
for
the
session
protocol
as
well
stuff
that
we
haven't
necessarily
looked
into
that
much,
but
things
that
you
could
naturally
think
about
session
being
used
for
so
because
you
don't
need
a
email
address
or
a
mobile
phone
number.
B
It
has
this
kind
of
instant
onboarding
experience,
because
you
can
just
have
the
user
generate
an
nt5519
public
key
and
they
can
just
start
sending
messages
into
the
network.
So
that
could
provide
a
really
good
experience.
If
you
wanted
to
provide
someone,
some
sort
of
temporary
identifier
that
they're
only
going
to
use
for
the
day
and
then
just
throw
away
or
at
this
point
also
connects
as
well.
B
If
you
wanted
to
have
some
sort
of
second
factor
authentication
where
they
get
a
unique
public
key,
that's
that's
provided
to
them,
and
then
they
can
receive
messages
back
and
forth
from
a
central
service,
and
you
can
also
think
about
having
that
be
an
anonymous
file
transfer
system
as
well,
because,
as
we
spoke
about
before
your
session,
id
is
kind
of
an
identifier
and
a
decentralized
network.
B
And
if
we
add
in
the
looking
at
aspect
of
things
where
we
can
have
stream
based
protocol,
then
that
will
essentially
allow
someone
to
be
addressed
on
a
decentralized
network.
And
then
we
can
use
locanet
to
share
files
between
those
individuals
and
yeah
from
some
of
those
primitives.
B
You
can
kind
of
build
out
and
see
how
that
would
that
would
work
in
a
system
that
you're
building
or
yeah
it's
just
a
it's
a
very
it's,
a
very
kind
of
up
to
you
type
situation
once
you've
got
those
those
primitives
so
yeah.
I
would
encourage,
I
think,
that's
nearly
the
end
of
my
talk,
yeah.
I
think
I'm
in
q
a
now
so
yeah.
I
would
encourage
people
to
to
reach
out
message
me
on
session.
That's
my
session.
I
do.
B
We've
lost
the
slide
there
reach
out
reach
out
to
me
on
session.
That's
my
session
id
there.
It's
also,
you
won't
be
able
to
write
that
down.
So,
if
you
go
to
my,
I
have
twitter
as
well.
If
you
just
look
up
key
jeffries,
I've
got
a
github
profile.
My
session
id
is
on
there
as
well,
and
if
you
want
to
check
out
some
of
the
open
source
stuff
we're
working
on
including
session,
you
can
go
to
the
ox
and
I
o
repository
on
github,
so
yeah.
A
A
I
mean,
I
guess
my
first
question
is
we
have
folks
participating
in
the
ietf.
D
A
That
make
secure
messaging
apps.
Some
of
them
are
talking
about
that
in
messaging
layer,
security,
working
group
and
and
there.
So
I
just
wonder
you
know
if
you
wanted
to
elaborate
on
or
talk
about,
why
you
think
your
approach,
maybe
is
more
aligned
with
human
rights
goals
than
some
of
the
others
out
there.
If,
if
at
all,.
B
Are
privacy
focused
that
encrypt
your
messages
like
signal
or
wire,
and
I
know
that
they're
working
on
the
mls
stuff
as
well,
which
I've
looked
into
too,
but
I
think
we're
taking
a
pretty
hard-line
approach
on
not
having
any
real-world
identifiers
in
the.
B
B
B
E
The
question
was
yes,
in
fact,
I
have
some
doubts
regarding
the
anonymity
of
your
system,
because
in
your
presentation
you
mentioned
that
when
you
install
the
session
application,
you
generate
a
public
private
key
pair
and.
D
E
You
use
the
public
key
as
your
identity
on
the
network,
then,
at
the
end
of
the
presentation
you
say,
oh
and
by
by
the
way
you
can
reach
me
with
this
session
id
because
I'm
always
available.
So
in
fact,
how
difficult
would
it
be
for
someone
willing
to
attack
your
anonymity
to
get
this
session
id
and
say?
Oh,
this
is
the
guy
that
I've
seen
presenting
at
the
etf.
E
So
actually,
I
think
that,
from
a
liberty
perspective,
the
fact
that
the
identifier
is
stable
over
time
is
a
threat,
because
you
can
you
can.
If,
if
you
have
a
network
of
people
that
use
the
same
identifier
to
contact
you,
then
how
difficult
would
it
be
for
an
attacker
to
determine
that
the
person
that
is
connected
to
this
and
this
and
this
person
is
you
because
you
are
the
only
contact
that
is
common
to
all
those
people?
E
B
Yeah,
I
understand
your
perspective
there.
One
of
the
major
things
that
makes
session
id
different
from
a
mobile
phone
number
is
that
they
can
be
destroyed
and
recreated
kind
of
instantly.
So
if
you
want
to
completely
disconnect
from
your
identifier,
you
know
that
my
session
id
is
what
I
displayed
before
then
I
can
just
dispose
of
this
account
and
create
a
new
one
or
create
multiple
accounts
that
are
disconnected
from
each
other.
B
So
if
I
want
to
have
a
public
identifier
which
is
displayed
on
the
internet,
which
is
this
one
and
then
I
also
want
to
have
another
account,
that's
completely
disconnected
from
my
id,
I
can
create
those
accounts
just
ephemerally
like
I
can
create
them
instantly.
B
Another
thing
that
we
are
looking
at
as
well
is
having
some
kind
of
anonymity
in
the
delivery
of
messages
as
well,
so
that
people
can
send
out
messages
more.
I
don't
know
if
you're
familiar
with
bit
message,
but
more
bit
message
style
where
the
network,
the
messages
flooded,
the
entire
network,
so
they
don't
necessarily
have
a
destination
on
the
message
per
se,
but
yeah
I
mean
really.
You
need
some
way
to
identify
everyone
in
the
messaging
system
and
having
a
long-term
identifier,
rather
than
a
short-term
identifier.
B
That
changes
over
time
means
that
people
can
take
choice
into
their
own
hands
about
how
they
control,
who
knows
them
and
who
doesn't
with
their
session
id,
so
that
that's
really
the
thought
process
that
goes
into
that.
E
On
on
the
last
point
regarding
how
you
manage
your
identity
and
maybe
how
you
have
multiple
session
ideas,
I
agree
with
you
that
it
can
help
in
managing
the
in
improving
the
anonymities
in
a
way.
So
I
didn't
get
the
part
where
you
could
destroy
your
identity,
and
maybe
you
could
have
some
things
like
you.
You
create
multiple
identities
and
you
have
a
way
to
have
to
create
them
for
a
certain
period
of
time,
and
you
have
a
covering
period
for
the
two
identities
and
a
messaging
way
for
people
to
say.
E
B
Yeah,
so
that's
something
that
we
want
to
work
on
as
well
is
kind
of
multi
session
id
support
in
a
single
account
so
having
someone
kind
of
in
a
single
client
being
able
to
have
multiple
session
ids
in
that
client.
Just
so
it's
easy
for
them
to
manage
their
multiple
identities.
So
you
know
and
they're
able
to
generate
identities
ephemerally
as
well.
If
they
just
want
to
have
a
conversation
with
someone
that
they,
you
know,
they
don't
really
know.
B
They
can
generate
a
new
session
id
and
have
those
messages
still
filter
into
the
same
client.
So
that's
been
something
we've
been
working
on
as
well,
so
yeah
definitely
understanding
the
issue
that
you're
bringing
up
here
as
well,
though.
B
And
I
see
in
the
chat
also
some
people
are
talking
about
zuko's
triangle
and
how
do
you
kind
of
exchange
the
session
id?
So
we
also
have
another
system
that
I
didn't
really
get
to
talk
about
today,
which
is
similar
to
the
ethereum
name
system,
or
something
like
namecoin,
where
you
can
actually
map
on
the
blockchain,
a
human
readable
name
to
a
session
id.
Obviously,
that
would
be
removing
some
of
the
anonymity
from
the
system.
B
If
you
wanted
to
map
your
real
world
identity
to
the
session
id,
that's
completely
optional,
optional,
but
yeah.
We
do
have
a
way
to
map
human
readable
names
onto
onto
these
names,
using
using
the
blockchain
that
we've.
B
A
Yeah
happy
folks
again
want
to
jump
on
the
mic
with
their
questions.
My
last
one
was
you
mentioned
in
one
of
your
slides
about
your
process
for
feedback
user
feedback,
and
it's
something
I'm
particularly
interested
in
as
a
researcher
like
how
to
really
create
a
tight
feedback
loop.
A
Even
you
know,
design
so
in
in
spoiler
alert
in
the
112
session
of
hrpc,
we're
going
to
have
a
speaker,
who's
quite
well
known
for
their
development
of
the
participatory
design
methodology,
and
I
just
wondered
if
you
had
any
insights
or
any
innovation
around
how
you
actually
receive
feedback
from
your
users
and
implement
features,
and
if
you
face
particular
challenges
of
that,
I
just
finished,
reading
a
book.
A
Well,
it
it's
been
a
couple
months
now
about
you
know
when
open
source
projects
become
very
popular,
it
very
swiftly
becomes
an
issue
of
not
enough
people
telling
you
how
to
make
your
product
better,
but
way
too
many
and
way
too
many
prs
and
way
too
much,
and
you
know
and
managing
that
whole
feedback
loop
can
be
challenging.
So
I
wonder
where
your
session,
where
session
protocol-
and
you
all
are
at
with
respect
to
your
practices,
around
user
feedback.
B
I
don't
think
we
have
anything
particularly
innovative
here.
Perhaps
the
like,
I
mean
mainly,
we
manage
things
through
github
prs
and
issues
that
people
file
on
our
repositories,
perhaps
like
the
only
unique
way
we
have
of
getting
feedback
is
obvious,
is
through
session
itself.
B
So
you
know
the
session
developers
hang
out
in
in
channels
on
session
where
people
can
provide
us
feedback
and
we
obviously
take
those
things
back
to
github
and
file
them
as
issues,
but
we
don't
have
some
kind
of
you
know
new
and
amazing
technology
for
managing
issues.
I
think
it's
just
a
it's
a
hard
slog
like
we
take
feedback
from
users
and
try
and
improve
on
the
application
every
day,
so
yeah.
A
I
think
brita
has
a
particularly
good
point
in
the
chat
if
you
wanted
to
get
to
that
or
brita.
If
you
want
to
come
on
mike,
it's
a
good
one,
I'm.
B
So,
basically
like
authentication
issues
so
because
anyone
can
create
a
public
key,
you
don't
know
who
anyone
is
I'm
guessing,
that's
the
kind
of
gist
of
the
question
and
that
maybe
hawks
back
to
the
web
of
trust
stuff
as
well.
I
think
it
really
does
come
back
to
that
like
because
of
the
anonymity
aspects
of
the
application.
We
can't
say
that
users
are
who
they
say
they
are,
so
they
have
to
establish
trust
with
each
other
out
of
band.
B
We
can't
it's
hard
to
have
your
cake
and
eat
it
too
here
as
well.
Right
like
if
you
want
anonymity,
necessarily
you
need
people
disconnected
from
their
real
world,
identify
identifiers
and
if
they
want
to
bring
that
back
in
like
if
they
want
to
connect
themselves
to
their
identity
again,
then
they
can
do
that,
but
that's
an
optional
thing
that
we
put
up
to
the
user.
Just
like
I
showed
you
my
session
id
before
you
know.
B
D
It
seems
like,
similarly
to
zuko's
triangle,
there
are
desirable
aspects
of
systems
like
this,
where
we
can't
get
all
of
them
at
once,
and
I've
heard
some
criticism
of
your
system
where,
like
the
the
identities,
are
not
identifiable
because
you've
picked,
you've
picked
goals
that
don't
include
verifiable
identities
that
include
more
anonymity,
and
it
would
be
nice
kind
of
in
this
research
group
in
kind
of
the
private
messaging
system.
B
Yeah
definitely,
I
think
I
mean
we've
definitely
tried
to
focus
more
on
the
providing
anonymity
to
to
users
rather
than
providing
kind
of
verifiability
around
who
that
user
is.
I
guess,
yeah,
as
I
spoke
about
before
you
can
link
your
real
world's
identity
to
a
session
id,
but
it's
always
going
to
be
that
that
system
is
always
going
to
be
out
of
band
in
terms
of
what
we
can
provide.
We're,
not
there's
no
kind
of
central
identifier
in
the
network
which
says
you
know
this
person
is
who
they
claim.
They
are.
A
Well,
thank
you
very
much
key
really
appreciate
you
coming.
I
think
it's
really
early
in
your
morning,
so
more
appreciated.
Although
it
could
have
been
worse,
it
could
be
on
europe
time
for
you
that
wouldn't
work
out
very
well
so
yeah
thanks
so
much
for
coming.
It's
a
good
discussion.
It
was
nice
to
sort
of
have
an
additional
yeah
another
another
messaging
app
in
the
ecosystem.
A
Talk
about
the
alignment
with
human
rights,
because
I
do
think
that
these
sorts
of
things
are
quite
you
know,
aligned
with
what
we're
trying
to
do
in
hrpc,
so
stick
around.
If
you
want
we're
gonna
move
into
the
next
portion
of
the
agenda
again,
very,
very
sorry
that
andrea
isn't
here
to
present,
but
we
will
go
ahead
then,
and
if
you
can
see
my
screen,
yep
we're
gonna.
Just
I'm
gonna
give
you
a
really
quick
overview
of
our
drafts,
so
that
folks
know
where
we're
at
with
this.
A
As
far
as
I
know-
and
I'm
also
happy-
I
think
colin
you're
still
here
if
they're,
if
I'm
wrong
about
these
things,
please
jump
in,
but
I
know
for
sure
niels
who's.
The
lead
author
on
draft
association
isn't
here,
and
I
also
do
not
see
gershobad
who's
lead
author
on
guidelines,
so
yeah,
so
starting
from
the
top,
so
freedom
of
association
on
the
internet.
You
could
you
could
read
that
real
quick,
but
the
high
points
are
that
we
have
done
a
thorough
literature
review.
A
Essentially
each
sub
question
became
its
own
case,
its
own
sorry,
its
own
section
that
looked
at
cases
about
freedom
of
association
online
and
in
in
in
with,
as
it
relates
to
ietf
or
irtf-related
work
and
protocols,
and
that's
more
or
less,
I
think
quite
sorted.
We
we
had
a
presentation
about
it
at
1
10
and
it
seemed
like
it
was
in
a
good
place.
We've
had
we
had
some
text
changes.
A
We
had
some
on
list
debate
following
that
meeting
and
I
think
it's
in
a
stable
place,
but
it
hasn't
progressed
past
that
so
I
would
have
liked
perhaps
to
have
talked
about
draft
association
at
this
meeting
to
see
whether
or
not
it
was
ready
for
last
call.
But
I
think
we'll
have
to
say
that
for
112
or
we
could
we
could
do
it
on
the
list
if
other
people
have
different
views
of
draft
association.
Have
read
it
recently,
please
chime
in.
A
But
my
guess
is
that,
because
it
hasn't
changed,
you
haven't
done
that
so
yeah
draft
guidelines,
then
that
is
the
one
that
at
1
10
we
decided
was
ready
for
last
call.
We
went
through
the
process
of
doing
the
last
call
on
the
list.
A
So
I
guess
that's
where
I'm
wondering
if
colin,
if
you're
still
here,
if
you
had
any
updates
or
questions
from
I'm,
not
one
of
the
co-authors
of
draft
guidelines,
but
I
could
do
my
best
to
capture
any
concerns
or
thoughts.
You
have
in
the
notes
and
then
go
to
the
list
to
action.
Anything.
F
Yes,
yeah
I
mean
I
I
have
to
admit
I
I
still
have
to
give
a
detailed
review
of
this
draft.
I
I
was,
I
was
reading
it
briefly.
I
guess
over
the
the
weekend.
F
I
I
think
it
it's
certainly
going
in
the
right
direction.
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
good
points
here.
I
I
had
perhaps
some
concerns
that
it
was
a
little
one-sided
in
places
and
sort
of
presented
with
you
one
particular
view
and
and
that
there
could
be
counter
counter
arguments
made
as
to
the
the
benefits
and
and
your
reasons
for
doing
certain
things.
F
So
you
know
I
I
think
it's
certainly
raising
a
lot
of
good
points
to
think
about
it's
perhaps
I
think
it
could
perhaps
be
clearer
in
some
of
the
trade-offs
and
things
to
discuss
around
the
trade-offs
so
because
yeah,
all
of
these
things
are,
of
course,
trade-offs.
A
Indeed,
I
think
that's
the
point
right
is
that
there's
been
a
lot
of
discussion,
especially
in
the
recent
version
changes
around
like
just
being
able
to
say
that
something
is
maybe
controversial,
or
there
are
trade-offs
here,
but
then
doing
our
best
actually,
because
we
are
trying
to
come
down
on
the
side
of
human
rights
to
make
a
determination
one
way
or
another,
but
not
to
be
prescriptive
or
demanding,
but
to
bring
that
forward
so
that
there's
just
an
awareness
for
developers
and
engineers
that
this
indeed
is
a
trade-off
that
maybe
sometimes
remains
buried
unless
you
confront
it.
F
A
Indeed,
and
one
thing
I
think
we
can
help
with
and
maybe
as
you're
reviewing
it
with
somewhat
fresh
eyes,
con
you
can
think
about
is
how
we
could
give
language
to
draft
writers
when
that
happens
when
they
come
across
a
sort
of
trade-off
and
they've
decided
to
take
one
approach
over
another
to
capture
that
either
in
a
human
rights
consideration
section
or
elsewhere
in
the
draft
such
that
it's
not
that
they've
swept
it
under
the
rug
it
has
been
considered.
A
F
I
think
that
makes
sense
yeah,
and
I
mean
the
the
comments
earlier
of
being
able
to
know
what
what
is
what
the
goals
of
a
system
are
and
what
it's
supposed
to
be
providing
yeah
so
so
see.
You
know
what
you
know:
what
guarantees
it's
supposed
to
provide
a
useful.
A
A
A
You
know,
if
it's
well
documented
in
the
draft,
then
we
don't
have
to
you
know,
make
make
a
big
deal
about
it.
It
would
be
good
to
get
better
at
documenting
those
things.
So
I
think
that
should
be.
One
of
the
goals
of
the
final
review
is
to
make
sure
that
that
is
clear
and
that
folks,
developing
drafts
know
what
to
do.
A
Okay,
very
good
thanks
colin.
While
I
have
you
here
well,
I
don't
know
if
you
have
comments
on
this,
but
actually
I
wanted
to
go
back
for
a
second
to
draft
association,
because
I
did
just
remember
one
of
the
things
that
has
us
a
bit
stuck
on
this
is
that
as
the
only
chair
of
hrpc
at
the
moment,
I'm
also
a
co-author
on
draft
association.
A
A
Yeah
right
exactly-
and
you
know
we
did
have
but
then
yeah
we're
in
a
situation
now
where
it
would
be
really
lovely
if
someone
who's
got
experience
and
a
stake
in
hrpc
document,
success
to
like
jump
in
and
help
shepherd,
it
we've
reached
out
to
some
individuals
to
ask
them
directly
and
folks
are
really
busy,
but
that's
a
general
call
that
we
can
capture
on
the
notes
and
reiterate
to
the
list
that
we're
hoping
for
either
a
new
co-chair,
which
is
the
next
and
maybe
final
point
on
the
agenda
or
a
document
shepard
for
draft
association
to
get
that
moving
forward
again:
okay,
great
okay,
so
yeah.
A
So
as
promised.
Moving
then
to
the
last
agenda
item
which
is
just
around
you
know
needing
to
do
additional
outreach
for
a
co-chair
for
hrpc.
A
I
think
that
I
have
some
thoughts
on
maybe
how
to
present
it
very
much
based
on
our
slides
and
our
website
and
things
that
we've
done
in
the
past,
on
promoting
hrp
support,
hr
pc's
work
to
folks
outside
of
the
ietf
irtf
community
to
help
potentially
get
folks
in
academia,
maybe
interested
in
joining
hrpc
and
co-chairing.
A
But
this
is
actually
sort
of
like
an
open
mic
portion
where
folks
could
offer
up
suggestions
or
an
ask
that
you
contact
either
me
or
colin
or
both
off
offline,
with
your
thoughts
about
who
we
might
be
able
to
approach,
but
just
in
general
that
yes,
there's
an
active
search
out
there
for
a
co-chair
of
the
research
group.
Colin.
I
don't
know
if
you
want
to
add
anything,
but
I
just
want
to
make
that
point.
Super
clear
to
people.
F
Yeah,
I'm
not
sure
I
have
too
much
to
add,
but
you
know,
as
you
said
earlier,
thank
you
very
much
to
every
for
all
the
effort
she
puts
in
over
the
years
with
co-chairing
this
group.
It's
you
know
it's,
it's
a
shame
to
lose
her
as
a
co-chair.
We
we
are
looking
for
a
new
co-chair
for
the
group,
certainly
from
from
my
point
of
view,
I
I
think
it
would
be.
F
F
Possibly
someone
from
industry
to
to
balance
out
the
the
different
perspectives
might
help
help
you
know
having
a
balance
of
interest
in
the
chairs
might
help
ensure
that
the
group
continues
to
have
a
balance
of
interest
going
forward
but
yeah,
if,
if
people
are
interested
in
the
role
or
want
what
want
more
information,
what
it's
about,
as
mallory
said,
talk
to
mallory
or
I'll
talk
to
myself-
and
I
will
you
know-
hopefully
we
will
have
some
some
good
candidates
and
I'll
be
able
to
make
a
decision,
hopefully
before
too
long.
A
Yes,
absolutely
and
yeah.
I
think
that
that
is
good.
We
want.
We
definitely
want
to
balance.
We
want
to
potentially
even
get
fresh
perspectives,
one
of
the
things
that,
in
addition
to
the
the
many
years
that
aubrey
spent
working
hard
on
hrpc
one
was
always
just
innovating
and
thinking
around
like
how
to
do
more.
A
Outside
of
the
rfc
series,
which
I
really
appreciated,
and
I
know
we
have
a
lot
of
participants
in
this
research
group
that
publish
outside
of
the
ietf
irtf
they're,
either
in
academic
journals
or
elsewhere,
and
I
think
that
aspiration
to
do
more
with
that
is
really
something
we
should
hold
on
to,
because
I
do
think
that
we
want.
We
do
want
to
attract
folks
into
this
community,
but
I
think
we
also
want
to
recognize
that
we
are
within
a
larger
ecosystem
of
folks
who
are
researching
this
and
talking
about
this
question.
A
We
just
so
happen
to
be
very
close
in
proximity
to
you,
know,
engineers
and-
and
you
know,
designers
that
are
really
developing
these
protocols.
So
that's
the
sort
of
like
special
thing
about
hrpc,
but
then
yeah
leveraging
that
larger
ecosystem
and
the
innovation
around
publishing
is
something
that
I
think
we
could
really
lean
into
more.
So,
just
to
reiterate,
like
colin
said,
we
want
to
get
complimentary
co-chairs.
I
hail
from
civil
society.
I've
only
worked
for
nonprofits,
my
entire
career,
so
any
anyone
outside
of
that.
A
You
know
it's
really
there's
so
many
other
sectors
out
there
it'd
be
great
to
have
some
other
ideas
or
other
thoughts,
also
yeah,
again
just
differences
and
in
research
as
well.
One
thing,
that's
that's
interesting
and
unique
about
hrpc
is
that
we
don't
just
do
it's
not
just
very
hard
technical
stuff,
obviously
we're
dealing
with
social
issues
as
well,
so
sociologists
and
others.
A
I
think
the
skill
set
can
be
quite
diverse,
okay,
so
any
other
any
other
thoughts
folks
want
to
come
to
the
mic
we
have.
We
are.
We
are
only
halfway
through
our
time,
but
again,
that
is
because
we
have
sort
of
unavailability
of
current
draft
offers
to
give
any
updates
and
also
then
henriette's
unfortunate
inability
to
present
today.
So
I
could
give
you
an
hour
back.
You
can
go
to
other
sessions
in
this
block,
but
I'm
happy
to
wait.
A
Okay,
well,
I
think
that's
it
then
I
won't.
I
won't
take
up
any
more
of
your
time.
I
just
really
want
to
thank
you
all
for
coming
thanks,
so
much
to
keith
for
the
presentation,
thanks
to
colin
and
aubry
special
thanks
to
aubry
miss
you
already
aubrey,
all
right,
everybody
thanks
and
have
a
good
rest
of
your
day
good
evening.