Internet Engineering Task Force 97, 18 Nov 2016

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From YouTube: IETF97-RTCWEB-20161118-1150

Description

RTCWEB meeting session at IETF97
2016/11/18 1150

A

Yes, now here I hear your co-chairs gone. Yes,.

B

That's why we have a Canadian theme notice, because we're missing our usual dose of Canadiana.

C

B

Is also stick handling and we're doing IP handling, though.

D

E

Did notice that a couple of times I we stopped putting the charity she's come on. Oh yeah, go.

D

B

Should like totally have the chair here is the missing you yeah.

C

B

F

G

Title of people picture like had one person here, yeah.

A

Juvenile I: can you.

G

Just like to get pictures heavy and put it right here, I.

B

Don't know if I have a picture of him double, no, you in their game, but you.

E

H

Given ipad, when you put.

E

Now, if you usually, if you put like I, think if you cook RTC web and search under images- and he actually comes up.

I

E

Second or third,.

I

From the door service.

E

Yes, so if you are teasing web of the video, his video.

B

This is suddenly it's it's giving.

J

J

B

On given torn down the network, yeah I think.

E

B

F

Letting me join.

E

All right10 enterprise networks are you sure you want to join these dresses, sir.

F

B

Look you're the craziest thing here.

C

So all minutes have to be mean form headed over yeah. That.

K

Really takes a talent that I'm not certain those people built I'm.

B

So welcome to IGF 97 mmm for the third time. This is the RTC web working group. If you were hoping it would be a different working group, you're, probably not alone. However, here's where we are, you may be noticed. We were slightly down a chair.

B

We put a picture of Cullen on this chair to help us remember him. He's he's already left, but we honor his presence with us in this way. I still.

C

Have a bottle of one bottle of wine of Cullen and a quarter bottle of gin of Cullen that he was trying to get away if anyone wants them all right. If you'd like to pour.

B

A glass out for Cullen, please speak to Ben or, if you'd like to drink Cullen's wine one go ahead, but do apparently there's also some Scotch going if you're, if you're not getting on a plane and imminently.

B

uh We are also honoring his memory with a Canadian themed picture for those of you who don't recognize, stick handling. This is stick handling. uh Let's see.

B

And I'm and we're not able to get away from mr. kentley first nice freaking cursor, oh my cursors, on the wrong zone.

B

This was funnier several days ago. No! Well! If this is your first visit to the IETF, it's Friday and you'll find that we're kind of punchy on Fridays, but we have some rules about IPR. Please familiarize yourself with those rules, if necessary, by getting Reverend rescorla to explain them to you in the back of the room. Talking to a lawyer might be a little bit better. If you actually wanted legal advice, however, please do not make a contribution unless you feel you understand it or you don't care.

B

So it's Friday, you'll notice that we have one thing to talk about: IP handling.

B

B

E

That is an option that.

B

Is an option sure where.

E

That's real flip it up on the screen so.

B

Right now we're going to let Martin who's editing the text of this. On the basis of the suggestion, that's already been discussed in the list from Alyssa, but you may be wondering why we're subjecting you to a live editing session. The chair is really felt like we wanted to get discussion here. Real-Time high bandwidth, so that when we go back to the list, we can report that that occurred. We do not want to have this come back as a document in Chicago.

B

You want the PR accepted and us ready to move on, so this document can go with j sep and with security documents in particular, because we think without it the security abs will immediately go. There's a piece missing to your security considerations. Please add same so while Martin is live, editing I will remind you that the overview draft Herald, also among the missing I, should let me update this to be a picture of Harold here for a second.

B

Okay, here's Harold we're going to be doing this for each missing person, so he has revved the overview document and that the key question here is: it had been a normative reference for a whole bunch of things and so a whole bunch of things are stuck in the artsy editors queue waiting for it to be public, not all of them, so some of them will actually pop out once overview is published.

B

So we wish to change theory which had been that we published overview last and say hey at this point: we're not going to change anything at the overview level. So we want to go ahead and publish it. Is there anybody who has an objection? Okay, then you can expect a working group last call on that. As soon as Shawn's tiny little fingers can go, uh beat.

B

I'm, sorry to the list: ok I will pop it into an emacs buffer and get it up in just a second. The other thing is a Ecker. Did you manage to give the kiss of life to the security draft? Yet? Okay, so as soon as Ecker has given the Kissel, you know you're here, I, don't have to put your picture if, as soon as ecker has put the case of life to the security draft, we intend to seek active review of it and security architecture.

B

Again we have done this twice so far, but the last time was Headley over a year ago, as time has passed on us, but we also intend to bring this to working group last call shortly after the beginning of the year. So for those of you who are counting, we are hoping to take j sep overview, the security drafts, the IP draft and effect draft to the iesg in relatively short order.

B

That means that we're going to be looking to every single person in this room and a great number of people in that ipad to be giving us reviews on on a timely basis. Please prepare yourself and I see mark nottingham when looking for reviews was mentioned.

B

Brooklands excuse me. I have to get a picture of mark up here.

B

We're just gonna: do it all off the recording. This is gonna, be short um if you'd like to jabber scribe, though that would probably be polite. uh Okay, let me get my thing back here.

B

Okay, uh this is going to actually gonna do this in slides, actually, because this is big enough- that if I do it in a single scrolling, Emacs buffer, it's gonna be pretty hard. Let's do it. Annie Mac buffer, nevermind.

B

Slightly too large email, okay.

B

Architect, Thompson the front of the room. Please please enter the pink box.

B

Please I'll be getting a pink box up on it.

L

Yeah so here's mark Nottingham.

L

All I did here was exactly what I described on the list with one minor tweak to the sentence here: I moved this block up, I did not touch mode, 1 mode to know 30 mode for all of that description, I just copy paste, so that's literally from the latest version of the draft from the website. Now, if that's wrong and there's another version in github, you know too bad. um No I mean I scan this and put the one on.

B

The website and the one in github are in sync I, said.

L

That there isn't there is no draft in github, otherwise this would have been in the form of a pull request and that's kind of annoying. This actually isn't github I can send you I couldn't find it I couldn't find it. I can send a poor requested if, if I get a location, I will.

M

Send it to Ray after this meeting thanks.

L

Justin, so the the change here is that I just rewrote this paragraph after the end, I took Alice's text with the amendment that echo requested and I put it immediately after that, and then I took the rationale that we had previously and if you scroll down a little bit further, you will see the rationale that would that that's the app that that's where, how and the other down down down down down down down down down Anna.

L

So the main ideas for the design are the following: I deleted the one that I've moved up so.

B

This is also in the RTC web mailing list. It was Center just a few moments ago. So, if you wish to look at on your own screen, please bring up the mailing list text and you can read it there. So this is the restructuring we.

L

Need to change the gathering all possible candidates to fix bug, but this makes that possible so gathering candidates at a mode, not that that is less privacy preserving than the that's. That's the that I didn't get.

N

This copy paste copy paste copy paste.

N

Yes, that section.

L

So I I I'm just copying pasting text so.

B

But so the problem is into the microphones and it's Justin's here, yeah.

G

I'm using the microphone that the first paragraph that the thing under node one says you can only use node one when you get some for local media access and the on which I thought was not. We agreed on the other conditions about what, when you actually be able to be able to have load one alright.

L

So I confess that I was doing this lives.

G

And I mean my point is that this is this gather.

L

The design ideas this gathering our planet is this section.

G

That the thing that is the only things out ended in the screen gathering all possible candidates blah. Is that not? Is that going the draft or not yeah, okay, so right so so the I mean. Let me try to reduce yeah I guess I I mean so that seems to me to contradict like. Let me take a step back, which is forgetting about the text. I think this either. This hatch is supposed to say is that you can only do mode one if you gain some form of user consent, that that is that.

N

Is what census we have good.

G

Okay, that's what I thought this supposed to say. I do not believe this text managed to say that, although they should say several, oh, it's sort of half does and half doesn't right, so says it there, but then, but then, oh sorry, and and that the former user consent is left up. That is left up to the browser. However, we suggest you that perhaps one way of retaining user consent would be to ask for the camera microphone. Is that, like that's.

L

Essentially well yeah.

G

That is a text.

L

That you can see on screen, but not in the text from node 1 itself, which is your point, is that is that your concern right, I, guess I guess what I would say is that.

G

um I, guess is yes, but also I think that if we agree on that substantive material, then in the section which you've highlighted like the I would remove the sentence, starting with gathering all possible candidates up to the semicolon, because that just creates confusion. Respective knows what, if we respect to the statement of the previous paragraph, that is this. The previous.

O

G

Then and then- and then you say this swartz and it so I basically like take the take the stuff after the semicolon stuff it after the first sentence in in the fruit of the previous paragraph, and then you will have something is coherent. Thank you. That makes sense to me.

B

All right, let me see I, can do that, namely.

G

But no one must ah pues dr. user consent, piss semicolon this swartz, the typical blah blah blah finish that paragraph and then stuff on the end where it says motu, yep, gotcha,.

L

I will also remove the section that the sentences in mode 1 the definition of mode one that says as such, this should only be formed when the user explicitly is given consent. It mentions the design rational, number three above, which will now be below, and we don't want to repeat ourselves so I'm going to cut that and I'm going to send that to the list. Okay. Well, I think, is that the I.

M

Think the actual positioning of the rationale.

F

Verses on roads like we can probably discuss that some other than work ever mailing list. I.

M

F

Seems like in a lot like editorial.

M

Of like you, throw something and then provide rationale for, or do you sort of explain the rationale and then you know sort of indicate what falls out of that design idea. So I think the main thing is like what are the actual required on some. We should be very clear about that leading this meeting.

B

All right so I tried to cut and paste what I thought Ecker was saying: did I get it right.

G

Yes, yeah, like.

L

That that is also what I just sent it go at got to mode the description of mode 1 above delete from as such onwards, because that that is covered by the stuff. We just added delete that yes, yes,.

G

G

In the last graph of mode to the sins mode to what, instead of saying when local media access is not granted say when consents has not been obtained earth yep yeah, when consent has granted.

L

Yeah, let's, let's, let's make sure that we use user rather than consent generally.

L

L

Is there another above I.

L

Yeah I think we can walk or a deal because we actually know what gets off name is. Do we have a definition for that.

M

It's referenced up in the see it the second well, the second bullet other ideas for design which are now below, rather than above.

L

Problem alright, so if we knew the rationale above does that actually just.

B

Change this from above to balloon: well, I, I,.

M

Fee like this guy editorial stuff, you just probably not best done in a pond or a boy yeah.

B

I only I want this to be hummed today, so it might not be best done in a plenary form, but that's what we're gonna do. That's what I'm doing Magnus you've been standing patiently for a long time. Yes,.

O

Because my issue isn't around exactly I looked at ml4 and I assume this actually includes turn relays, but it's maybe should be slightly more explicit about enumerated. So it's explicit about that's talking to stun relays because they different things.

M

That actually is discussed in the section after the modes are defined.

L

Okay yeah, so the discussion of proxies is important to get right and as Justin points out that's later on, because we don't want to say turn relay because if that's application provided tone really, then we get it back into the soup. So I think this is probably okay.

B

B

Are there any other changes to this text that people want now and and Martin I understand you've sent the replacement text to the list as well. If.

L

B

Met a few tweaks since.

L

I did that in the center sure, let's just go through it carefully.

L

Above is still wrong, but I put him star star star next to it, and we can just mark that as to be fixed.

H

L

Next page, please.

G

L

All right, let's, let's not do a hum in this room, but we can decide now I, think everyone read this. You want to make sure that the the tail end of this is still correct. So a Magnus has asked for another moment for this page.

B

So none of this text is really subtly changed right. Oh I've,.

L

Heard or you'll notice it's it. It goes from two to four.

P

L

But let us assume that the editors will be able to translate this into whatever format is most appropriate.

B

This can be crammed down. That's what we're saying does anybody still need to be on this, or can we finish moving down.

G

Yep Justin I just want to note for you that we actually don't do what's in one. We do to first and then bind specifically to the IP address rediscover.

M

Into um and that's fine I, I think you know I can relax and language to make it less normative and say you know, for example, or something like that. Yeah.

G

I didn't think this forbid what we did I just wanted to know for you. That's not weird yeah.

M

Well, one of the things that I need two starters: what a pending update to this document is replaced in this language, with actual must, should requirements, strength, floors and I'll just make sure that this is marked without any sort of normative language. Thank you.

B

Is there really ready to move the next page.

G

Ok, so in graph for on this I don't know problem with this text, but Justin you're going to want to note that this must is a is not a 21-19 month.

A

A rather a fact.

G

A

L

We might night needs to yeah.

G

Also I wonder a free turn to stone new proposal um yeah sure night, whatever I'm just I just didn't, find you I find nitpicking easy to read. It.

G

I'm satisfied with this talks.

L

Do we still mention chrome in this document for leaves so now that.

M

Weapon roughly okay,.

L

I made a mistake of copying the old text. That's fine.

O

So my name is wisdom, so the intention of oops number just for hair is to say, if you, even if, if using web proxy, also for your web traffic towards the server, that's the try. What you trying to determine and then you're in this consideration or what this is it just the immediate path, traffic.

O

So it's is it the communication with the with the radiant server or is it the WebRTC media traffic tits proxied, so.

L

The intent of the text as I understand it is to say if the user is using a proxy for the purposes and in parenthesis for the purposes of anonymizing their traffic. By passing it through that proxy, then.

L

Even determining that the proxy is in place yeah, it is kind of challenging yeah and when you are when you do finally determine that, you want to use the proxy for WebRTC, you're kind of forced to use TCP and that kind of sucks.

O

Ok, because now going to do things that you, unless you have your own turn server, also bound by on the it's, it's not trustable, that's why we.

L

Have the return thing hanky, yep, I.

L

Think that takes does everything that it needs to say in that regard, it's just when we could write the entire essay on why it is why it is, but I think this is enough for the document.

Q

Alan port but I'm very confused by how this relates to the difference between three and four before the mode, three forces to return server mode for said proxy. But then this is talking about proxies and turn TCP turn, but please be turning the same text. So it's mode for talking about TCP turn in the previous one, rather than HTTP proxies.

L

Yeah, so so mode for is talking about proxies period, which which encompasses both web TCP proxies and or the return stuff do we need to make that more explicit, I think.

Q

So yeah that'd be helpful and it.

L

May be a socks proxy, it.

M

Does mention cyclic Roxy's explicitly there.

L

Hey exactly if he mentioned return, I think it would cover off the all of the all the bases, so no I think it needs to be a little more expert, I. Think, I. Think what we really need here is a definition of what proxy is.

I

John thanks. The other point here is: this is something which is browser configured that application configured it's the point. This is correct, yeah and that's what that's the critical point. It's that I.

M

Think we're going to talk about the definition of proxies. It probably needs to happen in section 2, where it sort of states the problem for the first time, and it talks about proxies in place.

L

Sounds like a plan should we are that as an issue and treat that as editorial well.

M

I'm sort of hoping that we would basically open issues and all these things here, but.

B

Well, if we get a PR from Martin that covers the conversation today, I, don't think we need to split it into multiple issues. Just because you know they were, there were raised separately. I think we can contribute as a and a single PR for for all of the the text we talked about so far. The the definition of proxy I agree is, if it goes in section, 2 would be a different PR and probably that.

M

Does not mine editing? The pr here should really concentrate on what specific words in to change the definition of the modes and the depth a blogger, so that this is yeah.

L

Sorry Justin this, this paragraph that we have at the bottom of the screen is the critical one. We should keep that on the screen, while people contemplate whether they want to say that we are happy with this or not because I think we just reached that point.

M

Right, I think you know in that particular paragraph. I think that the last sentence probably needs to be altered a little bit to refer to consent.

M

You know, in other words, that if consent is not obtained IE the default case, then mode 2 should be used.

G

Right so you mean to say: if consent does not obtain user agent should use mode to that they might choose a center policy in certain.

M

Circumstance and about that, and then we're saying this- you know use this by default here, which I think you know doesn't typing feel sure. I'm john.

A

Is fine, I know, probably change actually change that so.

L

I think the words we're looking for and unless user consent is obtained, user agents should use mode too. Okay,.

B

We pull this back, so I can actually seen it see this for a second.

L

So you wanted to say: unless, unless user consent has been obtained, user agents should use mode 2 and then, though, they may.

L

That's good call Justin. That makes it better.

L

It's got other stuff on this.

L

You want to seize email.

E

Does anyone to get to the microphone to speak against this proposal.

B

All right so mechanically, what will happen now is the PRS will get filed by yes, yes, I'll send us back to Martin he'll file file, a PR against the repo which Justin will disclose, and then we will go back to the list with the PR for for review on the list, but my understanding is that nobody in this room currently objects other to this plan or to this wording correct me: if I am wrong.

B

B

Let the recording that me dekho is taking using web RTC note, since we didn't get any other note taker. That's the plan Harold. By the way before you arrived, we agreed that people were ready to take over view into publication, so we will be starting. A working group last call on it, just FYI that closes the business of WebRTC RTC web for as far as I am aware, unless there is somebody who wishes to get up to the mic and decide, they want to say something else,.

B

Seeing none thank you all for coming. I appreciate your willingness to work this all out in real time when we had folks available enjoy the rest of your visit to Seoul.

H

I salute choose a greatness. You know, I have a bottle of wine in my bag.