►
From YouTube: IETF 114 Internet Architecture Board (IAB) Open Meeting
Description
The Internet Architecture Board (IAB) will hold an open meeting 17:30 -18:30 UTC on 26 July 2022.
A
A
B
B
A
I
generally
don't
think
there
are
that
many
patents
when
we're
talking
about
policy
things,
but
who
knows
just
be
aware
of
such
things.
Additionally,
the
itf
network
covers
our
code
of
conduct
in
our
anti-harassment
policy.
Just
those
are
incredibly
important.
This
meeting
has
always
been
pleasant
and
I
just
want
to
make
sure
we
keep
it
that
way
so
yeah.
So,
let's
be
happy,
everyone
be
nice.
A
These
are
our
usual
meeting
tips.
Please
make
sure
to
join
the
session
on
meet
echo.
Even
if
you
are
here
in
person
that
way,
we
have
a
count
of
attendance,
so
you
can
either
join
the
full
meet
echo
client
on
your
laptop
or
the
lite
client
on
your
phone,
both
of
them
fill
out
the
blue
sheets
and
allow
you
to
raise
your
hand
if
you
want
to
talk
at
the
microphone
so
we're
using
the
meet
echo
queue
for
questions,
comments.
A
Long
speeches
so
just
make
sure
that
you
join
that
and
then
walk
up
to
the
microphone.
So
when
we
call
on
you
you're
already
there
and
you
can
talk
additionally,
the
want
to
remind
everyone
of
the
itf
mask
policy,
not
the
working
group,
the
thing
that
prevents
the
spread
of
covid,
everyone
is
required
to
wear
masks
during
session
with
exceptions
of
people
on
the
podium
here,
while
they
are
actively
speaking
because
we're
far
from
all
of
you.
A
Okay
next
slide,
and
how
should
you
send
us
feedbacks
comments?
Rants
speeches,
anything
you'd
like
in
general,
we
have
this
mailing
list,
ib
ib.org.
That
is
the
recommended
way,
but-
and
we
have
some
more
specific
ones,
such
as
architecture,
discuss
for
long
discussions
and
for
liaisons.
We
have
another
list,
but
also
feel
free
to
grab
any
iab
member
here
in
the
hallways,
we're
generally
friendly,
and
you
can
recognize
us
by
the
red
dots
we
have
on
our
badges
next
slide.
B
Yeah,
so
this
is
the
boring
part
of
the
meeting
where
we
just
give
a
couple
of
updates.
So
you
know
what
we're
doing.
We
did
manage
to
publish
one
rsc
and
this
one
is
actually
important
one.
It's
a
new
roc
series,
editor
model.
It's
done,
it's
implemented
where
it's
off
our
plate,
so
we're
not
responsible
anymore
and
like
I
provide
you
more
information
tomorrow
in
the
plenary
as
well,
but
then
the
documents
we
are
actually
still
responsible
for.
We
have
two
workshop
reports.
B
B
A
B
B
Okay
and
we
have
another
technical
program,
which
is
the
model
t
program
or
the
internet
threat
model
program,
and
this
we
reported
a
couple
of
times
in
the
ib
open
meeting,
and
the
current
stages
is
that
there
was
an
interval
meeting
in
april,
which
discussed
a
little
bit
about
what
are
the
next
steps
for
the
program
and
since
then
there
wasn't
much
activity.
There
was
much
discussion.
B
B
Okay,
then,
like
again
back
to
the
more
less
technical,
more
administrative
side.
I
just
we
just
want
to
mention
quickly
that
we
actually
created
two
new
groups,
and
this
is
really
kind
of
for
just
our
internal
support
of
our
our
functions.
So
maybe
not
that
exciting.
For
you,
but
just
like
for
some
transparency,
we
have
a
new
group
for
ietf
and
ieee
coordination.
This
is
actually
not
really
a
new
group.
This
activity
always
existed.
B
We
just
like
home
it
now
more
officially
on
the
data
tracker,
so
hopefully
that
provides
more
visibility
about
the
liaison
work
we're
doing
there,
and
this
is
kind
of
it's.
It's
a
it's
a
it's
a
closed
mailing
list,
but
it's
like
experts
are
invited
on
a
need
basis.
So
it's
like
a
moving
group
of
people
working
on
the
coordination
and
then
the
other
new
program
is
the
iab
ice
policy
coordination
group,
and
this
is
really
just
to
intensify
our
relationship
with
ice
hock.
B
We
have
the
liaison,
we
talk
to
them
quite
often,
and
we
thought
that
like
having
having
a
group
that
can
meet
more
often
and
and
can
focus
on
topics
and
make
sure
we
don't
miss.
Anything
important
will
help
us
here.
So
this
is
brand
new
and
and
hopefully
it
will
improve
our
relationship
with
isoc
even
more.
B
So
maybe
that's
information,
that's
interesting
for
some
of
you
and
then
we
will
have
a
longer
update
from
scott
our
laser
manager
to
itu-t
this
time
to
provide
a
more
broader
overview,
what's
happening
in
this
organization.
So
that's
also
something
new
we're
doing
right
now
and
we
go
from
like
we
start
with
i2ut
this
time
and
then
hopefully
the
next
time
we
we
give
you
some
more
updates
about
other
organizations,
just
in
general
to
provide
more
awareness
and
coordination
between
the
different
organizations.
B
B
B
And
then
this
is
a
little
bit
of
heads
up.
We
are
discussing
another
workshop
on
ira
mental
environmental
impacts
of
internet
applications
and
systems.
This
call
isn't
out
yet,
but
it's
coming
very
soon,
so
the
ib
already
decided
that
we
want
to
do
this.
The
workshop
will
happen
in
december
likely.
So
submission
will
be
a
little
bit
later
in
october
and
we're
interested
to
actually
understand
what
the
impact
is.
What
are
what
are
the
right
metrics
to
measure
it
and
what
are
the
data
that
we
have
out
there
and
like
what?
B
C
So
I
wish
it
were
a
question:
it's
it's
more
input
to
the
iab.
I
hope
you
don't
close
the
model
t
program.
Instead,
I
hope
what
the
iab
does
is
inject
a
little
energy
into
it.
Ib
has
been
a
little
passive
about
that
program.
There
are
five
drafts.
There
is
community
interest,
but
what
we
seem
to
lack
there
is
enough
energy
to
keep
the
program.
C
What
the
iab
sees
as
a
symptom
is
something
that
I
think
the
ieb
could
solve
by
generating
some
of
the
energy.
The
community
has
contributed
some
drafts,
but
we,
like
you
mentioned,
we
had
the
one
interim
meeting
that
doesn't
seem
like
enough
to
me.
So
my
input
to
my
input
to
the
iap
on
the
model
t
program
is
don't
close
it
and
if
the
conversation
takes
place
in
the
iab
about
closing
it
make
sure
that
you
have
a
place
to
go
for
those
documents
right
that
you've
you've
asked
the
community
for
input.
C
B
So
I
I
well
understand
that
desire,
and
I
understand
that
it's
very
not
satisfying
if
we
just
close
the
program
and
there's
no
follow-up.
But
what
we
see
is
that
the
purpose
of
this
program
or
the
purpose
of
a
lot
of
the
iab
activities
that
we
do
is
to
kind
of
trigger
a
conversation
in
the
community
to
to
point
the
community
at
gaps
or
topics
that
think
we
think
we
need
further
discussion.
So
that's
when
we
created
the
program
what
we
wanted
to
achieve,
and
we
don't
see
this
goal
achieved.
B
So
we
don't
know
like
if
keeping
the
program
around
will
achieve
this
goal.
There
are
documents
which
have
contributed
to
the
discussion,
but
I
think
a
lot
of
these
documents
were
not
were
not
considered
as
being
publicate
public
published
on
the
iab
stream
from
the
beginning.
So
this
might
not
be
the
right
venue
anyway,
for
these
documents.
B
We
had
a
discussion
today
that
we
needed
menu
for
these
documents,
and
I
understand
it's
very
frustrating
that
I
just
like
can't
create
it
for
you.
But
I
don't
think
this
when
you
will
be
in
the
iab
and
I
I
can
only
act
in
the
iab.
I
can't
act
in
the
other
part
of
the
organization,
so
I
think
it's
actually
on
you
to
bring
these
documents
to
keep
the
discussion
going
and
bring
these
documents
into
its
right
place
and
one
place
we
discussed,
for
example,
is
also.
B
A
A
A
E
Dominique
lizanski,
I'm
the
author
of
two
drafts
for
model,
t
on
threat,
models
and
and
threats
just
to
say,
I
think
just
to
say
I
support
what
mark
said,
but
also
just
to
say.
I
think
it's
not
on
us,
particularly
but
on
us
collectively
with
the
iab
as
well.
The
threat
model
has
changed,
and
my
drafts
actually
show
that
and
there's
quite
a
lot
going
on
in
this
area,
and
I
would
agree
with
mark
and
his
comment
on
saying
that
I
think
it
needs
support
and
input
and
sort
of
zest.
E
I
would
say
from
the
iab
as
well
as
from
the
community,
and
I
haven't
let
my
drafts
expire
because
there's
quite
a
lot.
There
that's
changed
and
that's
going
on
at
the
moment,
and
I
just
wanted
to
to
make
that
interjection
that
I
would
really
support,
seeing
this,
giving
it
another
chance
and
to
make
sure
that
we
actually
have
a
place
to
discuss
these
threats
and
these
threat
issues
that
are
coming
up.
And,
let's
be
honest,
it's
not
just
about
you-
know
private
sector
as
well.
E
F
Rob
wilson,
cisco,
so
just
a
quick
comment
on
your
workshop
on
the
network
management,
which
I
think
is
great.
But
when
advertising
that
you
might
emphasize
network
monitoring
and
operations
more
than
network
management
in
a
sense
because
otherwise
you
may
find
that
network
management
itself
isn't
affected
by
this.
And
actually
it's
monitoring.
The
traffic
so
just
be
clear
when
it's
being
advertised
to
to
pull
in
the
right
people
and
make
sure
people
understand.
What's
coming.
E
D
Yeah,
so
so
the
the
the
workshop
on
environmental
impacts
it's
under
preparation.
We
expect
that
to
be
a
virtual
workshop
in
in
december,
and
so
everybody
should
be
easily
able
to
participate,
you'll
be
needing
to
submit
the
position
paper,
and
you
know,
submissions
that
are
interesting
from
from
the
point
of
view
of
the
program.
Chromatin
will
will
be
accepted
and
we'll
have
a
discussion.
D
Yes,
I
just
wanted
to
come
to
the
mic
and
and
say
a
few
words
about
model
t.
So
I
I
don't
claim
that
I
have
all
the
answers.
Like
I
mean,
I
share
the
pain
that
was
expressed
on
the
mic
previously,
but
I
I
I
I
probably
would
have
you
slightly
different
words
than
media
did.
So
it's
not
not
necessarily
that
we're
gonna
close
this
and
go
away
type
of
thing.
D
It's
it's
more
that
you
know
that
we
see
some
opportunity
for
moving
some
documents
at
least
forward,
for
instance,
some
of
them
in
in
the
iab
documents
and
continuing
the
discussion
architecture
discuss
lists.
So
it's
at
least
for
some
parts.
It
can
be
an
opportunity
for
actually
completing
the
work
rather
than
you
know,
telling
people
to
go
away,
but
there
are
other
parts
that
that
we
don't
necessarily
have
an
answer
for
so
we
need
to
work
on
that
and
we
will
be
discussing
one
of
the
documents
by
the
way
today
later.
B
A
H
H
So
what
I've
provided
here-
and
this
is
a
presentation-
that's
up
on
the
website,
so
I'm
not
going
to
read
every
word
on
this
slide.
People
can
read.
I
just
want
to
point
out
a
few
things
if
there's
particular
information
that
you're
looking
for
and
then
I'm
here
all
week.
So
if
you
need
to
discuss
anything
in
here,
a
little
bit
more
in
depth,
just
contact
me
send
me
an
email.
It's
scott.mansfield.erickson.com
very
easy.
H
So
there
are
many
things
that
we
deal
with
when
we're
talking
between
the
itu-t
and
the
ietf,
and
so
there's
technical
impact
things.
There's
policy
impact
things,
there's
geopolitical
impact
things
so,
depending
on
what
you're
really
interested
in
take
a
look
at
those
things
and
then
decide.
If
there's
anything
that
you
might
want
to
want
to
talk
to
me
about,
for
instance,
the
itu-t
focus
there's
some
topics
there:
they
they
tend
the
itu-t.
H
If
you
don't
know
part
of
the
itu
part
of
the
un,
they
like
to
look
at
things
from
the
top
down,
so
they
always
have
whatever
the
latest
buzzword
is
there's
going
to
be
a
quantum
thing
or
a
digital,
twin
thing
or
whatever.
But
what
that
means
to
the
itu
is
different
than
what
that
kind
of
thing
means
to
the
ietf.
H
So
it's
important
to
keep
that
in
context,
so
you
go
to
the
next
slide.
So
when
I,
but
I
provided
in
here
and
there's
even
more
now,
there
was
even
a
couple
more
liaisons
that
came
in
this
morning.
Even
after
I
sent
you
this
particular
version
of
it,
but
go
to
the
the
liaison
tracker
that
the
online
thing-
and
you
can
see
all
of
them-
you
can
sort,
and
so
there
are
several
liaisons
that
we've
received.
A
lot
of
them
are
for
information.
Some
of
them
are
for
action.
H
I
chair
a
joint
collaboration
activity
on
imt
2020
and
that
liaison
just
came
in
this
morning.
So
if
there's
any
group
that
has
work
that
they're
doing
associated
with
5g
or
the
transport
of
5g,
those
are
the
types
of
things
that
we
would
like
you
to
send
back
to
the
itu.
So
we
can
keep
a
database
of
all
the
work
that's
going
on,
mainly
so
that
we
can
avoid
duplication
of
work.
H
H
There
is
actually
this
isn't
the
newest.
Well,
that's
fine!
So
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
drafts
on
trust
in
quantum.
So
if
you
like
trust,
if
you
like
quantum
the
itu-t
study
group,
13
meeting
just
happened,
the
two
the
first
two
weeks
of
july,
they
produced
quite
a
bit
of
work.
These
are
some
recent
drafts,
so
the
next
slide
I'm
going
to
do
this
and
then
so
the
activities
there
are
joint
collaboration
activities
and
focus
groups
and
correspondence
groups
and
road
map
style
work.
H
So
if
you
don't
know
what
those
things
are,
you
can
come
and
talk
to
me,
but
the
groups
that
are
very
active
in
study
group
13
right
now
are
identity
management,
autonomous
networks,
machine
learning,
data
sets.
This
is
a
new
correspondence
group.
That's
been
created
so
that
you
can
discuss
how
to
how
to
standardize
the
transfer
of
data
set
information
when
you're
dealing
with
machine
learning
next
slide.
H
Whole
slew
of
new
workouts
and
I
chart
this
is
just
study
group
13..
There
are
11
study
groups
in
itu-t
there's
a
lot
to
look
at.
This
is
the
newest
work
in
study
group
13.
study
group
20
is
going
on
this
week
in
a
couple
weeks.
Study
group
17,
which
is
security,
is
going
on
and
then
study
group
15,
which
is
transport
related,
is
going
on
in
september,
lots
of
stuff
going
on.
You
can
see
that
these
are
the
joint
collaboration
agreement
links
if
you're
interested
in
any
of
these.
H
This
is
the
information
about
quantum
information
technology
for
networks.
These
are
the
deliverables
that
they've
already
sent
out.
So,
if
you're
interested
in
that,
you
might
want
to
take
a
look
at
that
next
now,
from
a
geopolitical
standpoint
and
from
an
organization
standpoint
from
itu-t,
there
are
some
humongous
meetings
that
have
been
going
on
because
of
covid.
These
meetings
were
supposed
to
take
place
in
2020
and
2021
and
2022.
H
Well,
the
meeting
that
was
supposed
to
take
place
in
2020
happened
a
couple
weeks
a
couple
months
ago
and
it
was
called
wtsa.
This
is
the
one
that
organizes
the
work
for
the
itu-t
and
so
there's
some
hot
topics
there.
What
happened
and
some
of
the
stuff
that
that
occurred.
If
you're
interested
in
the
resolutions
or
opinions
or
any
of
the
proceedings,
you
can
click
on
and
look
at
it
there
go
to
the
next
slide.
H
H
Upcoming
is
the
plenty
potentiary
meeting
sounds
very
heavyweight,
actually
what
it
is.
It's
the
one
that
elects
the
new
secretary
general
of
the
itu.
So
this
is
a
big
deal.
This
meeting
happens
it's
three
weeks.
It's
in
budapest,
no
bucharest,
sorry
and
the
topics
of
this
are
internet.
Governance
is
a
huge
topic.
If
you
care
about
policy,
if
you
want
to
see
what
some
of
the
stuff
going
on
in
the
world,
you
can
look
at
that
link.
There's
the
aai
is
going
to
be
a
big
topic.
H
Things
about
openran
and
open
standards
and
open
stuff
there'll
be
more
discussions
about
that
in
high
level.
Res
high
level
resolutions
coming
down
the
important
thing
that
may
be
lost
on
some
people
is
the
plenty
potentially
is
a
treaty
binding
meeting,
which
means
laws
can
come
out
of
this
thing.
It's
something
that
matters
to
a
member
states.
So
if
you
go
to
the
next
upcoming
meetings
that
I've
already
said
those
that's,
it.
B
D
D
T
work
by
the
way
and
there's
there's
more,
but
this
this
is
one
that
we're
discussing
today
and
I
actually
believe
that
this
is,
you
know,
potentially
useful
for
for
the
iat
to
adopt
us
as
an
iep
document,
eventually
in
rfc,
and
that's
why
it's
sort
of
I'm
asking
that
iab
to
adapt
it
and
talking
about
it
here
next
slide,
please.
So
the
context
for
this
is
that
the
iab
typically
doesn't
like
deal
with
detailed
protocol
issues.
D
D
D
For
instance,
they
should
provide
only
the
information
to
each
other
that
is
necessary
for
the
function
that
they
expect
to
be
performed
by
the
other
party
and
if
they,
if
they
say
more
information
than
that,
then
basically,
this
wire
image
thing
applies
that
you
know
information
will
get
used
even
at
the
servers.
Even
if
you
encrypted
the
whole,
you
know
tcp
flow
or
or
quick
flow.
D
So
it's
really
simple,
but
perhaps
it
needs
to
be
said,
given
that
we
are
sharing
so
much
data
the
next
slide,
so
you
may
ask:
how
does
it
actually
get
translated
to
real
technical
works?
Three
examples
and
there's
probably
more:
we
can
think
of
new
new
places
to
apply
this
oblivious,
dns,
oblivious
https,
basically
about
giving
full
information
to
any
single
participant
so
that
that's
the
clue
there,
privacy,
preserving
measurements.
D
The
ppm
working
group
avoid
giving
a
single
user's
data
to
any
party
but
still
be
able
to
provide
aggregate
statistics,
for
instance,
and
then
end-to-end
message
encryption
between
users,
so
that
you
may
use
some
relays
servers
that
relay
information.
But
you
don't
tell
the
servers
the
content
of
the
messages,
but
that's
the
destination
where
they
won't
want
to
be
relayed,
so
pretty
simple
stuff,
but
but
actually
important,
because
we
are
sharing
way
too
much
information
in
the
internet
today.
A
B
Yeah,
so
we
we
invited
dr
cabral.
He
is
a
professor
of
economics
and
international
business
at
the
university
of
new
york,
so
it
was
a
short
drive,
but
it
was
quite
spontaneously
so
like
really
here
and
we
invited
you
because
of
the
eu
digital
market
act,
which
was
just
finished.
I
think
right
very
recently,
and
this
already
triggered
some
discussion
in
the
itf.
B
There
was
the
mimi
barb
off
yesterday
evening
and
there
was
a
lot
of
discussion
there
already,
and
so
we
are
really
happy
to
have
you
here
as
an
expert,
and
I
can
just
encourage
everybody
to
take
the
opportunity
to
ask
any
questions
they
have
now
during
the
session
is
I
mean
we
have
25
minutes
left.
So,
let's
see
how
far
we
get,
but
also
after
the
session,
you
will
be
around
for
a
little
bit
longer
so
yeah
thanks.
I
Thank
you
for
having
me
and
and
I'll
try
to
be
brief.
So
again,
I
was
next
slide.
If
you
could
move,
I
was
going
to
just
very
briefly
introduce
myself,
because
I
I'm
not
by
any
means
an
expert
in
internet
infrastructure,
so
to
be
very
clear.
My
area
of
expertise
is
the
study
of
competition
policy
and
there's
a
lot
of
it
on
over
the
internet,
and
so
there
are
a
lot
of
things
that
may
be
relevant
for
you.
That's
the
reason,
primarily
I'm
here.
I
In
particular,
I
co-wrote
a
report
to
the
european
union
in
preparation
of
the
digital
markets
act,
which
was
approved
monday
of
last
week.
So
this
is
all
very
fresh.
So
next
slide,
please
I'm
sorry
if
I'm
starting
from
the
zero,
but
basically,
as
I
said
I
I
don't
know
anything
about
infrastructure
and
I'm
primarily
talking
about
commerce
over
the
internet,
so
issues
of
ip
of
competition
and
so
forth.
I
Those
are
the
issues
that
I
deal
with
and
those
are
the
issues
that
the
digital
markets
act
and
also
the
digital
services
act,
which
is
the
next
one
that's
coming
up
address
and
which
I
think
are
relevant.
Also
for
people
dealing
with
infrastructure,
so
next
slide,
please
now
being
so
ignorant
of
issues
of
instruction.
I
I
decided
it
might
not
be
a
bad
idea
for
me
not
to
assume
any
knowledge
on
your
part
on
issues
of
competition
policies.
So
I
apologize
if
I'm
stating
the
obvious
to
some
of
you,
but
I'm
going
to
start
with.
You
know
antitrust,
101.
What
is
this
all
about
by
the
way,
if
you're,
not
in
north
america,
this
is
usually
known
as
competition
policy,
but
it's
essentially
the
same
thing
see
you
know
a
set
of
institutions
and
laws
that
govern
the
way
commerce
is
done
not
just
on
internet
but
more
generally.
I
Okay,
some
key
players
might
be
the
antitrust
division
of
the
u.s
department
of
justice
or
in
europe,
dg
comp,
the
directorate
of
competition,
which
is
probably
the
most
powerful
directorate
in
the
european
union
and
then
there's
a
whole
set
of
of
laws.
One
thing:
that's
a
bit
peculiar
of
competition
policy,
and
this
may
sound
a
little
strange
to
you
and
if
it
does,
it
is
because
it's
strange
it's
jurisdiction,
so
strictly
speak
in
practice.
I
How
come?
How
did
he
find
that
jurisdiction?
Well,
to
the
extent
that
meta
and
gif
you
want
to
do
business
in
the
uk?
They
have
to
follow
their
rules,
they
decide.
You
cannot
do
that
acquisition
and
they
cannot
afford
not
to
do
business
in
the
united
kingdom.
Then
they
have
to
follow
whatever
is
imposed
on
them.
So
this
is
so
much
it's
very
different
from
refined
in
these
meetings
and
because
it's
not
so
much
about
global
cooperation,
it's
it's
a
very
fragmented.
I
I
That's
been
really
the
leader
in
trying
to
enforce
rules
for
a
level
play
field
in
in
commerce
in
general
and
in
particular,
on
internet
and-
and
I
think
this
is
particularly
important
when
it
comes
to
digital
markets
and
that
survey
when
I
finally
I'm
coming
to
next
slide.
Please
my
point,
which
is
the
digital
markets
act.
This
is
all
very
fresh.
I
One
is
defining
who
are
these
gatekeepers
because
we
are
first
to
say:
who
are
they
we're
going
to
be
regulated?
Second,
the
list
of
do's
and
don'ts,
and
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
that
and
finally,
how
does
this
work
in
practice?
How
do
you
implement
this?
One
thing
is
to
have
a
law
in
theory.
The
other
thing
is
how
this
is
going
to
work
in
practice.
So
what
I
want
to
do
in
the
next
three
slides
or
so
is
to
go
over
these
different
parts
in
greater
detail.
I
I
I
Let
me
just
say
that
I
mean,
if
you
ask
me:
does
this
have
the
potential
for
being
a
big
deal,
and
my
answer
is
no.
This
is
the
potential
being
a
humongous
deal.
I
mean
this
really
could
be
a
watershed
moment
in
the
history
of
the
internet.
Maybe
I'm
exaggerating,
and
perhaps
of
course
you
guys
have
a
different
perspective,
which
is
infrastructure,
but
in
terms
of
the
history
of
how
google
and
microsoft
and
and
facebook
and
so
forth,
have
been
doing
business.
I
I
So,
for
example,
I
mean,
of
course,
there's
allegations.
We
don't
know
that
amazon
would
favor
its
own
products
in
listing
them
on
on
the
page
or
that
google
there
is
some
evidence
of
that,
would
bring
some
of
the
affiliated
services
up
on
the
organic
search
pages
and
so
forth.
That's
in
the
blacklist.
I
Okay,
second
huge
this
one
friend,
which
is
the
idea,
a
legal
term
for
fair
and
non-discriminatory,
fair
and
non-discriminatory
access
to
click
and
query
data.
This
is
huge,
basically
saying
that
google
has
has
to
provide
click
and
query
data
or
amazon
whatever
to
third
parties
at
a
reasonable
price.
Of
course,
what
does
reasonable
mean?
You
know?
I
don't
know
this
for
lawyers
to
decide
largely,
but
I
mean
never
like.
This
is
an
important,
very
important
step.
I
I
Now,
of
course,
the
devil
is
going
to
be
in
the
details.
How
that's
going
to
be
done,
but
at
least
the
idea
is,
is
that
that
is.
This
should
be
important
same
thing
for
app
stores,
which
are
basically
a
huge
monopoly
by
apple
and
google
right
now,
no
restrictions
on
transactions
off
the
platform.
This
is
getting
a
little
technical,
but,
for
example,
amazon
does
not
allow
sellers
who
sell
through
amazon
to
set
a
lower
price
elsewhere
sounds
a
little
crazy.
I
It
is
crazy,
but
but
it
is
true:
it's
one
thing
that
they
ask
and
then
data
portability.
If
I
create
now
a
cabral
selling
network,
I
can
tell
amazon
that
if,
if
amir,
for
example,
she
had
an
account
on
amazon,
I
want
amazon
to
give
me
that
data
of
her
past
purchases,
so
that
she
can
have
all
of
that.
You
know
recommendations
that
she
had
on
amazon.
I
can
have
on
my
own
cabral
platform,
again
no
precedence
of
of
regulations,
of
of
this
strength.
I
I
I
don't
think
in
the
history
of
the
internet
and
that's
what
the
dma
is
asking
for,
and
finally
notification
acquisitions,
since
2000
gatham,
the
five
top
firms
have
made
close
to
1
000
acquisitions
and
only
one
was
blocked
that
was
last
year
and
it
was
giphy
the
acquisition
of
giphy
by
mata.
So
these
are
just
some
of
the
items
that
are
covered
in
the
lists
of
do's
and
don'ts.
That
just
went
into
effect
on
monday
of
last
week,
and
as
I
said,
I
mean
if
this
is
applied.
I
This
is
really
a
what
a
shed
in
the
history
of
of
of
the
internet.
As
far
as
I
can
tell
next
slide,
please
so
non-compliance
again.
This
is
huge.
The
commission
has
the
rights
of
article
21.1
of
conduct,
on-site
inspections.
I
mean,
I
think,
it's
pretty
draconic,
but
it's
written
today.
I
I
still
don't
know
exactly
how
to
interpret
that,
but
I
I'm
interpreting
the
way
it's
in
there
that
I
can
just
walk
in
here
affirmative
and
and
ask
you
for
the
data
for
your
emails
for
everything.
I
And
basically
you
know
this.
Basically,
just
implementation
in
a
decade
finds
up
to
10
of
turnover.
This
may
not
seem
like
a
lot,
but
it
is
a
lot
I
mean
it
could
be.
I
don't
know
into
tens
of
billions
of
dollars
of
fines
so
that
potentially
this
could
be.
It
could
be
big
next
slide,
please,
and
so
it's
on
as
of
last
week.
I
Okay,
I
think
this
has
a
potential
of
being
huge,
but
of
course
the
devil
is
in
the
details,
how's
this
going
to
work
and
I
think,
one
very
important
difference
in
respect
to
the
past.
In
the
past,
competition
policy
has
been
left
to
lawyers
and
some
economists,
and
I
think,
one
of
the
reasons
why
this
is
very
revolutionary.
I
No,
I
need
to
have
ways
of
of
I
don't
know
finding
out
whether
they
are
giving
access
interoperability,
whether
they
are
actually
sharing
the
right
data
and
so
forth.
I
mean
there
are
so
many
ways
of
of
not
following
the
rules,
and
this
is
not
something
that
a
lawyer
can
figure
out.
This
is
something
that
will
require
a
lot
of
expertise,
and-
and
this
to
me
is
the
biggest
problem.
I
So
non-technical
issues,
but
nevertheless
very
important
issues
by
large
digital
corporations,
and
I
think,
like
I
said,
I
think,
it's
great-
that
the
european
union
is
taking
the
lead
on
that.
Traditionally,
the
u.s
was
really
the
country
where
competition
rules
were
more
enforced
and
more
likely
enforced.
But
in
the
past
few
years
things
have
kind
of
been
reversed.
Regulators
in
us
have
essentially
been
asleep
when
it
comes
to
antitrust,
and
so
it's
probably
a
good
thing
that
european
union
is
taking
on
that
role.
I
F
Thank
you
very
much
very
interesting
talk,
and
I
hope
you
know
that
it
actually
comes
true
to
some
extent
that
it
promotes
interoperability
at
layers
higher
than
we
we
typically
see
in
the
ietf
these
days.
You
know
everybody
wants
wild
guard
and
log
lock-ins,
and
you
know
they
use
base
http
and
tcp
and
the
layers
that
we
know
about,
and
then
it
sort
of
stops
because
they're
trying
to
get
vendor
lock
in
what
I
worry
about
and
what
I'm
curious
about
is.
F
Does
the
document
which
I
have
not
read?
I
apologize
figure
out
a
way
to
avoid
some
of
the
legal
loopholes
right.
So
you
talk
about
you
know
they
want
to
mandate
instant
messaging
right.
I
could
very
quickly
see
the
companies
going.
Okay,
we're
no
longer
doing
instant
messaging,
we're
now
doing
something
different
right,
so
they're
always
trying
to
keep
one
step
ahead
and
get
you
know
sort
of
more
lock-in.
I
So
I
think
you're
asking
the
right
question
and
I
I
I
don't
have
an
answer.
I
mean
the
answer
is
no,
it
doesn't
have
it
here
and
there
are
a
lot
of
loopholes.
I
mean
one
is,
for
example
encryption.
You
can
say
that.
Well,
I'm
what's
up,
and
you
know
I'm,
I
have
this
technology
for
encryption
and
and
if
you
don't
have
that,
I'm
not
going
to
allow
you
to
to
interoperate
with
what
I'm
just
giving
you
as
a
possible
example.
I
I
mean,
if
that's
how
you
want
to
do
it
then
I'll
stop
doing
it.
I
don't
think
so,
but
a
lot
of
people.
Of
course
I
mean
the
large
corporations
are
already
saying
that
it
was
part
of
the
lobby
by
the
large
corporate.
Well,
if
you're
going
to
start
regulating
us
like
this,
we're
going
to
stop
offering
search
on
google
well
come
on
or
it's
like,
so
I
I
don't
think
it's
a
credible
thread.
F
F
I
So
one
thing
that
I
did
not
mention
is
that
the
dma
does
include
the
possibility
in
fact
suggests
that
there
will
be
a
dialogue
with
the
corporations
that
are
considered
gatekeepers
so
as
to
implement
that
I
mean,
I
think
the
commission
understands
that
they
don't
understand
things,
and
so
the
idea
is
that
there
will
be
some
sort
of
a
dialogue
with
the
gatekeepers
and
perhaps
some
interested
third
parties.
I
mean
duckduckgo,
for
example,
they've
been
clamoring
for
for
ages,
that
they
want
access
to
indexing
and
so
forth.
I
So
my
guess
is
that
the
commission
will
call
google
listen.
We
we
need
to
do
something
about
this,
and
then
it
will
call
duckduckgo
as
well.
To
tell
you
know
you
guys:
are
the
experts
tell
us
exactly
what
you
need
and
and
then
negotiate
that
with
them?
So
dma
does
not
have
in
detail
exactly
what
this
means
just
creates
a
platform
as
it
were
for
this
to
be
implemented.
Okay,
largely
by
means
of
dialogue,
great.
I
F
F
I
care
about
alice
and
bob
and
alice
in
one
world
garden.
Can
talk
to
bob
in
another.
Walk
garden
is
an
improvement,
but
the
real
thing
for
me
is
alice.
Who
is
in
one
wall
garden
can
get
up
any
time
she
chooses
and
move
to
another
wall
garden
of
a
choice
without
losing
all
her
friends
losing
all
the
contacts
losing
etc.
I
So
I
think
that's
the
right,
the
right
question
and
I
think
that's
one
of
the
areas
where
the
dma
is
very
specific
now
what
they
can
get.
It
is
a
different
story,
but
I
mentioned
the
example
of
I
have
my
amazon
account
and
and
suppose,
there's
another
platform
that
has
amazon
is
obliged
to
provide
the
third
party
all
of
the
search
information
that
he
used
of
me
all
the
information
they
have
about
me.
That
would
allow
the
third
party
to
provide
exactly
the
same
quality
of
service
in
terms
of
recommender
systems.
I
That's
the
law
again,
the
devil's.
In
the
details
I
mean
I,
I
can
think
of
a
hundred
ways
that
amazon
could
could.
Could
you
know
screw
things
up
for
the
third
party
and
that's
where
I
believe
technical
support
is
going
to
be
so
so
important.
You
know,
lawyers
are
not
going
to
be
able
to
do
this
or
economists
for
that
matter.
J
Alyssa
cooper,
thank
you
for
this
talk,
it's
very
helpful.
I
have
two
questions.
My
first
question
is
about
interoperability.
So
there's
obviously
like
many
different
ways
that
you
can
achieve.
Interoperability
and
standards
are
just
one
of
those,
and
so
I'm
curious,
whether
there's
a
sense
that
you
have
from
your
perspective,
about
whether
the
european
commission
has
preferences
about
how
this
interoperability
is
achieved.
Obviously,
in
this
venue
we
like
standards
a
lot
and
we
like
to
do
things
on
an
internet
scale,
so
a
sort
of
one-to-one
dialogue.
J
You
know
with
each
gatekeeper
where
they
negotiate
bilaterally
how
they're
going
to
achieve
this.
Interoperability
is
sub-optimal
from
our
perspective
and
you
list
it
out.
I
mean
there's
a
number
of
areas
where
interoperability
appears
to
be
a
goal,
it's
very
explicit
with
respect
to
messaging
voice
and
video,
but
there's
lots
of
other
ones
in
there
around
the
data
sharing
and
the
ads
ecosystem
and
search,
and
all
of
that.
So
I'm
just
curious.
J
Switching
about
the
need
for
standards
or
interfaces,
and
it's
much
more
explicit,
at
least
in
my
reading
than
it
is
in
the
dma.
And
so
I'm
wondering
if
that's
meaningful,
like
the
fact
that
there
is
no
explicit
language
in
there
about
standardization.
Whether
we
should
read
something
into
that.
As
far
as
you
know
whether
it
was
put
to
the
side,
because
it
was
not
viewed
as
a
viable
option
or
if
that
was
just
part
of
the
political
process.
I
Right
two
very
good
questions.
I
mean
I'm
probably
going
to
read
myself
a
little
bit
in
here,
but
the
dma
was
created
by
a
bunch
of
politicians,
lawyers
and
economists
who
know
nothing
about
technical
details.
It
was
largely
an
exercise
in
reverse
engineering.
Say
here
are
some
problems
that
we
have.
We
have
to
deal
with
apple.
We
have
to
deal
with
google,
we
have.
I
I
C
C
I
I
my
answer
is
I
agree,
I
I
have
to
agree.
I
think
much
of
what
you're
talking
about
right
now
will
probably
fall
under
the
digital
services
act,
which
is
the
the
next
act
as
it
were
that
the
commission
is
putting,
which
includes
issues
of
surveillance,
issues
of
monitoring,
free
speech.
Issues
of
you
know:
basically,
liability
for
users,
actions
and
and
and
responsibility
for
the
user
users
privacy.
I
I
don't
know
much
about
the
digital
services
act
but,
as
I
said,
I
I
think
your
question
probably
refers
more
and
more
to
that
I
mean
regarding
the
example
that
I
gave
of
of
amazon
search
data.
You
can
think
of
that.
As
in
the
old
days
of
telecommunications
number
portability,
I
mean
there's
kind
of
similar
idea.
I
need
to
have
a
system
whereby
it's
very
easy
for
me.
If
I
want
to
go
from
a
phone
company
to
another
company,
I
can
do
it
tomorrow
at
a
very
low
cost.
I
That's
the
kind
of
thing
that
the
dma
is
asking
for
in
here
is
making
it
easier
for
the
user
to
switch
from
one
system
to
another
system
and
to
impose
the
obligation
on
the
platform
to
provide
that
data.
So
this
is
not
a
violation
of
privacy.
This
is
data
that
I
know
that
amazon
has
about
me
and
in
fact,
I'm
glad
that
amazon
has
about
me
because
they
make
very
good
recommendations,
but
I'm
sick
of
amazon.
I
I
want
to
move
to
cabral
platform
and-
and
I
want
amazon,
to
give
the
cabral
platform
all
of
that
data,
so
that
I
can
have
a
seamless
transfer
of
of
of
services
from
one
platform
to
the
other.
So
I
don't
think
here.
It's
so
much.
I
don't
think
it's
an
issue
of
privacy
per
se.
It's
an
issue
of
not
allowing
the
firms
to
have
proprietary
rights
over
user
level.
Data.
G
H
G
About
the
impacts,
I
guess
my
question
is
really
straightforward,
so
it's
short,
but
you
know
we
we've
seen
the
global
data
protection
regulation,
for
example,
gdpr
kind
of
play
out
for
a
few
years
now,
and
I
think
a
lot
of
people
would
say
there
could
be
some
changes.
We've
got
notes
for
those
regulators
and
I
wonder
then,
about
the
dma
as
well.
I
suspect
that,
because
we're
already
sort
of
anticipating
problems
that
some
of
those
problems
will
play
out,
so
what
are
the
mechanisms
to
revise
this?
How
long
will
it
take?
G
Does
it
have
to
be
in
the
courts?
Would
the
ec
be
more
flexible
and
actually
changing
this,
because
I
believe
it's
a
directive,
not
a
regulation
or
maybe
you
could
clarify
on
that,
and
you
know
what
kinds
of
evidence
or
advocacy
would
be
useful
in
bringing
you
know,
really
big
red
flags
to
the
commission.
If
it
does
happen
to
play
out
in
ways
that
we
think
it
might,
but
actually
then
do.
I
Correct,
I
mean
another
great
question:
yes,
you're
quite
right.
In
fact
the
dma
does
have
provisions
for
it
to
be
revised
in
the
next
few
years.
I
mean
my
guess:
it'll
take
probably
a
decade
before
the
dust
settles
on
it
and-
and
I
mean
any
interested
party
can
can-
can
contribute
to
it.
So
so
I
mean
in
that
regards
I
mean
I,
I
think
it's
a
good
attitude
that
european
commission
have,
which
is
one
of
willingness
to
learn
and
willingness
to
adapt.
As
time
goes
by.
I
I
have
to
say
that
data
point
that
he
raised,
which
I
think
is
a
very
important
point
is
I
mean
there
are
risks.
There
are
enormous
risks.
The
egdpr
one
risk
was
and
there's
some
evidence
already
that
economists
have
been
studying
that
this
had
a
very
negative
impact
on
small
startups,
because
you
know,
if
cookies,
I
mean
information
about
consumer
data
is
what
what
made
many
of
these
startups
survive
and
thrive,
and
if
all
of
a
sudden,
you
cannot
do
that.
It
creates
an
enormous
bear
to
enter
for
new
startups.
I
So
clearly
there
are
risks.
I
mean,
for
example,
in
the
u.s.
I
don't
know
if
you're
aware
of
that,
but
one
of
the
proposals,
senator
warren
and
other
people
have
been
posing-
is
to
have
a
complete
moratorium
or
complete
prohibition
of
acquisitions
of
startups
by
large
corporations.
Like
I
said,
it's
been
about
a
thousand
since
2000.
I
I
I
think
it
was
an
important
moment,
monday
of
last
week,
but
this
is
by
no
means
the
end
of
the
story.
It
will
take
probably
a
decade
until
things
settle
down
and
there
will
be
a
lot
of
dialogue
with
all
the
interested
parties
and
a
lot
of
adjustment
in
india,
various
articles
of
the
dma,
but
it's
a
good
start.
I
think
it's
an
important
start.
A
A
Thanks
so
much
for
coming
over
and
for
great
talk,
because
I've
been
hearing
about
this
so
many
times
and
now
I
feel,
like
I
understand
a
little
bit
more
and
I'm
terrified
all
right.
This
is
a
wrap
of
the
ib
open
session.
We
will
be
back
in
person
at
the
next
atf
barring
another
pandemic,
and
we'll
see
you
in
the
meantime
on
the
mailing
list,
thanks
everyone
for
coming
and
have
a
great
rest
of
your
itf
week,
and
if
you
want
to
ask
dr
cabral
questions,
he's
right
there.