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From YouTube: IETF114 EMODIR 20220726 2115
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A
Yeah
we're
right
on
the
time
and
we're
just
sorting
out
set
up
issues
here.
So
just
one
more
minute
and
we'll
get
started.
Thanks
for
your
patience.
A
B
B
This
directorate
has
a
fairly
wide
remit
at
the
moment,
and
so
we
wanted
to
have
a
open
meeting.
It
was
going
to
be
a
side
meeting
and
then
we
wanted
to
allow
remote
participation.
So
we.
B
Made
it
in
this
particular
context,
so
hopefully
everybody
can
figure
out
where
the
meeting
is.
I
do
know,
there's
an
issue
with
which
button
you
need
to
push
on
data
tracker,
but
it
is
on
data
tracker
and
it
is
available
via
meet
echo
and
anybody
that
doesn't
know
that
doesn't
know
because
they're
not
on
me
echo
now,
but
I
sent
it
out
to
a
couple
people
that
asked
me
individually.
B
F
F
B
Success
so
at
this
point
I'm
going
to
share
yeah.
Oh,
we
have
oh
nick.
We
have
one
more
person
added
hi
nick.
K
Yeah
sorry,
I'm
late
hi,
all
nick
doty
center
for
democracy
technology.
Good
to
see
you
sort
of.
A
Sorry
we're
we're
experiencing
a
unique
intersection
of
emo
durr
and
having
multiple
sessions
during
the
week
and
not
quite
being
a
full
working
group.
I
think
and
me
using
old
software.
B
Well,
no,
so
now
the
issue
we
have
is,
I
haven't
properly
set
up
my
browser
on
that
laptop,
but
I
know
it's
set
up
correctly
on
this
laptop,
so
we
are
on
top
of
things
yeah,
but
just
one
second
and
I'll
start
doing
the
slides.
You
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
plan
before
I
get
the
slides
up.
A
Yeah
sure
I'm
happy
to
talk
through
that.
Well,
first
of
all,
I
think
we
need
to
say
that
this
session
is
being
recorded
and
the
note
well
applies.
So
it's
super
important
if
you
haven't
had
a
chance
to
read
it
recently.
I
like
to
read
at
least
three
times
a
year
just
to
remind
myself
and
things
like
the
anti-harassment
policy
and
privacy
policy
that
apply
to
all
itf
contributions,
of
which
this
is
one,
including
and
also
includes
email,
lists
contributions
and
in
the
chat
and
so
forth.
A
So
yeah
take
take
a
moment
to
read
that
if
you
haven't
lately,
it's
good
stuff
yeah.
So
with
that
we
can
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
overall
plan
and
just
how
we
got
to
here.
The
this
group
and
others
have
worked
to
sort
of
create
an
outline
of
the
things
that
we're
hoping
to
get
done
in
this
in
this
year,
and
it
was
the
first
time
I
think
that
we
put
together
a
shared
vision
like
that,
so
it
took
a
little
while
to
get
together.
A
But
now
we
have
one-
and
I
know
work
has
already
begun
on
some
components
of
that
and
as
soon
as
karen
shares
we'll
be
able
to
share
it.
But
but
you
can,
you
can
also
find
it
if
you're
logged
into
data
tracker
and
or
if
you
can
see
the
agenda,
you
can
download
the
slides
yourself
and
take
a
look
or
if
you
go
to
the
emo
door
data
tracker
plan,
you
can
get
a
you
get
a
link
to
the
wiki
and
there'll
be
information
about
the
plan
there.
A
So
today
we're
hoping
to
just
provide
a
quick
update
on
it,
get
some
on
the
plan,
various
aspects
of
it
and
maybe
get
some
further
ideas
or
thoughts
about
how
things
are
going
and
karen
is
like
three
clicks
away
from
sharing
the
document.
B
So
we've
done
this
yep
and
now
we're
here
yeah.
So
as
a
quick
reminder,
I
wanted
to
go
over
the
emo
door
plan,
but
greg
has
already
pretty
much
done
that
since
we're
10
minutes
in,
I
think
we
might
move
on
that.
I
did
want
to
just
in
highlighting
this.
B
If
you
look
at
the
plan
itself,
maria
is
working
with
a
group
of
people
that
are
doing
some
quick
start
grind,
guide
activities
and
so
that
activity
is
partially
underway,
greg
is
doing
a
number
of
the
things
that
are
currently
listed
under
informational
materials.
B
So,
if
you're
interested
in
that,
you
can
speak
to
him
about
that
as
rich
already
mentioned,
rich
salsa
and
I
do
the
working
group
chairs
forum,
we
are
interested
in
any
ideas
for
topics
that
should
be
held
in
there
and
we're
also
interested
in
any
people
that
are
willing
to
help
work
and
organize
that
online
training.
This
is
some
training
that
is
being
produced
and
greg
is
working
on
that
and
I
have
to
admit
greg.
B
Excellent
and
then
then
there's
the
ietf
newcomers
program
and
we're
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
what
we
did
here
and
what
we're
planning
for
the
future
and
michelle
and
I
are
working
on
that
and
then
we
have
deep
dives,
tutorials
technical
presentations
and
right
now,
with
the
exception
of
the
work
by
the
iesg,
to
produce
some
deep
dives.
B
Our
tutorial
work
is
paused
at
the
moment,
so
that's
also
something
if
you're
interested
in
pursuing.
That
would
be
great.
So
at
this
point
in
the
agenda
update
on
chairs
training,
greg.
E
B
Some
of
that
is
called
out
in
the
plan
I
mean
if
you
see
greg
or
ams
staff
listed
there,
then.
Obviously,
that
is
supported
if
you
see
it
being
led
by,
or
you
know
worked
on
by
us.
B
Right,
but
I
think
part
of
what
we're
looking
for
is
help
in
identifying
where
it
would
be
best
to
put
those
resources.
Okay,
so.
B
Sorry
would
you
like
to
speak
robert.
B
Yes,
we'll
we'll
do
a
better
job.
Thank
you
robert.
So
it
really
varies,
but
I
think
if
there
are,
if
there
are
good
ideas
that
seem
implementable
and
we
can
scope
the
resourcing,
then
there
is
some
resourcing
available,
but
I
think
for
2022
we've.
You
know
you'll
see
the
plan
and
I
think
what
we're
for
additional
stuff.
We
probably
ought
to
think
about
what
we
might
want
to
do
in
2023
and
how
we
should
get
that
resource.
E
B
I
I
really
see
a
lot
of
improvement.
I
think
we're
we're
doing
a
better
job
of
utilizing
paid
resources
to
help
us
get
the
kinds
of
things
done,
that
we
want
to
do,
and
we
and
and
greg's
going
to
talk
about
the
working
group,
chairs,
training,
stuff
and-
and
that's
a
really
good
example
of
that.
In
my
mind,
can.
A
So
one
of
the
things
that
this
first
round
of
planning
actually
was
about
was
figuring
out,
given
a
limited
set
of
resources.
Where
did
folks
want
to
apply
those
and
where
was
their
energy
to
get
things
done
when
there
weren't
resources
available?
So
that's
exactly
the
question
that
we
tried
to
get
an
approximate
answer
to
during
the
couple
of
months
that
we
were
going
through
the
planning
and
I'm
sure
we'll
do
a
better
job
of
it.
Next
year,.
A
Yeah
fantastic,
so
as
as
we
just
noted,
this
is
an
area
where
it
was
pretty
clear
that
outside
energy
and
expertise
was
needed
to
accomplish
what
was
hoped
being
hoped
to
be
accomplished,
and
we
also
had
the
experience
of
our
first
run
at
this
last
year.
So
yeah.
So
just
a
quick
update.
We're
we've
started
conversations
with
the
same
folks
that
developed
and
delivered
the
training.
Last
year.
A
There's
a
group
of
community
members
that
are
most
of
them
are
chairs
or
past
chairs
or,
and
especially
there
are
a
few
new
chairs
that
are
involved
to
provide
guidance
to
the
subject
matter,
expertise
to
the
to
the
development
and
delivery
of
the
training,
and
so
that
we
just
had
our
kickoff
call
on
that
last
week
and
we're
on
track
to
follow
basically
the
same
schedule
that
we
did
last
year
per
plan
with
some
slight
changes.
A
So
one
of
the
things
that
we
really
learned
last
year
is
that
people
found
the
interaction
among
chairs
that
the
sessions
offered
to
be
really
really
valuable.
So,
instead
of
trying
to
cover
all
this
material,
we're
focusing
on
the
material
that
was
most
highly
rated
and
to
have
a
longer
interactive
session,
so
tweak
the
curriculum.
If
you
will
to
really
focus
on
interactivity,
for
I
think
we
have
four
it's
either
four
or
six.
A
I
need
to
go
back
and
look
multi-hour
like
two
hour
longer
session,
so
people
the
ideas
that
people
get
together
have
a
chance
to
interact
and
then
build
relationships
that
will
or
strengthen
relationships
that
will
help
them
continue
on,
even
after
the
the
training
opportunity
and
then
the
other
mode
is
a
shorter
delivery
of
more
informational
type
of
content.
A
Where
people
have
said
they
need
to.
You
know
they'd
like
to
know
how
get
some
more
information
about
how
to
do
a
particular
thing
better,
and
so
those
would
be
shorter.
You
know
like
online
learning
modules,
but
hopefully
the
idea
is
to
tailor
them
in
a
way
that
make
them
relevant
and
interesting
enough,
so
that
people
actually
want
to
do
them.
It's
not
a
like
a
compliance,
training,
video
that
you
have
to
go
through
and
grudgingly
do
they're
they're
interesting.
So
that's
that's
where
we
are.
A
We
just
kicked
off
we're
on
schedule,
expect
to
deliver
october
november
and
along
the
way,
we'll
have
a
same
kind
of
evaluation
and
dashboarding.
So
we
know
what's
working,
what's
not
working,
so
we
can
build
on
that
for
any
future
training
decided
to
do
sorry.
That
was
longer
than
I
thought
any
questions,
yeah
yeah
yeah
you
so
mary
asks
if
it's
the
same
company
and
the
short
answer
is
yes,.
B
Any
other
any
other
questions,
any
remote
questions,
nope,
okay,
great.
So
the
next
thing
is-
and
this
is
what
we've
already
covered
is
the
plan
is
newcomers-
and
I
divided
this
into
newcomers
at
ietf.
Just
to
give
you
some
idea
of
what
we're
what
we
did
at
this
ietf
meeting
and
then
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
what
our
next
steps
are
for
the
various
newcomer
activities,
the
first
thing
and
sort
of
related
to
what
what
you
were
mentioning
about
staffing.
B
We
we've
had
increasing
amounts
of
secretariat
support
over
the
last
couple
times
and
michelle
has
joined
the
team
and
we
also
have
jenny
who's
been
working
with
us
on
the
newcomer
stuff
and
we
have
a
series
of
meetings
in
advance
to
review
what
we've
done
in
the
past
decide
what
we're
going
to
do
this
time
and
then
execute
them
and
send
out
all
the
emails
and
those
kinds
of
things.
So
the
activities
that
we
have
are
the
newcomers
overview,
and
I
just
lumped
these
all
together
because
they're
related
it.
B
A
couple
of
q,
a
sessions
that
we've
been
doing
in
advance
and
then
the
in-person
tutorial
that
we
provided
on
sunday.
This
time
we
updated
the
in-person
tutorial,
but
we
did
not
get
the
videos
updated.
So
we
have
some
work
to
do
there,
but
that's
the
tutorial
information
on
getting
started
in
the
ietf.
B
We
had
a
quick
connections
on
sunday
evening
that
was
quite
successful
and
we
have
the
monday
night
dinner
that
the
secretariat
organizes
was
also
quite
successful
last
night
and
we
are
going
for
one
virtual
coffee
break
this
time.
I
believe
it
was
earlier
today
and
I
didn't
actually
make
it
so
in
gather
so
we're
still
trying
to
figure
out
when
we
were
all
virtual.
B
We
we
pretty,
we
had
a
better
idea
of
how
to
handle
remote
attendees
on
the
social
or
hallway
track
part,
but
we're
really
struggling
with
good
ideas
on
what
to
do
to
incorporate
newcomer
activities
for
virtual
attendees.
B
So
I
think
that
is
a
tough
one.
The
guides
program
team
ran
a
guides
program.
B
This
time
I
last
I
heard
there
was
11
or
11
matches
for
that,
and
that
is
the
you
know
program
where
you
can
sign
up
in
advance
and
get
matched
with
somebody
and
then
the
final
thing
we
will
have
will
be
some
feedback
sessions,
there'll
be
one
on
site
on
thursday
and
then
we're
going
to
have
a
remote
one
in
a
week
or
two
which
is
for
any
of
the
newcomers,
but
it
also
gives
a
better
opportunity
for
the
remote
remote
folks
to
participate.
B
H
Yes,
andrew
campbell
speaking,
I
I
just
curious:
did
you
know
what
the
numbers
of
newcomers
were
for
this
session.
H
F
So
question
for
karen
and
michelle
does
it?
Would
it
be
okay
to
share
the
document
that
you
wrote
about
the
newcomers
activities
in
the
chat
just
because
so
people
can
see?
F
B
I
I
I
was
going
to
just
put
a.
I
don't
know
if
I
don't
think
there's
anything,
sir,
are
we
ready
to
share
this
or.
C
Yeah
in
that
document
there
are
a
series
of
like
tasks
that
have
to
be
done
as
far
as
when
emails
go
out,
reminders
that
go
out.
So
it's
a
lot
of
basically
check
marks
for
the
secretariat
staff
to
make
sure
that
we
don't
forget
to
do
particular
things,
and
then
there
is
a
very
a
small
calendar
of
the
newcomer
activities.
C
C
So
hopefully
we'll
have
some
concrete
data
from
now
going
forward
to
be
able
to
compare
and
see
how
we're
doing.
That's.
What's
in
that
document,
that
rich
is
referring
to.
I
I
When
something
like
that
is
shareable,
you
know,
I
suggest
sending
it
to
the
the
team
luster
program
list
when
you're
thinking
about
what
to
do
in
sessions
like
this
one.
Remember
that
the
recording
is
going
to
be
available
on
youtube
and
choose
what
content
you
share
appropriately.
B
J
Regarding
one
of
the
data
points
that
we
talked
about
even
earlier
was
we
wanted
to
understand
a
little
bit
better
about
newcomers
behavior,
especially
for
virtual
ones,
that
are
they
here
only
for
a
single
session.
Are
they
attending
multiple
itf
meetings
that
could
also
help
us
to,
like
you
know,
trigger
how
to
bring
them
into
the
itf
community
a
little
bit
better,
because
that's
the
feedback.
J
J
I
wanted
to
know
what's
happening
otherwise
with
a
lot
of
people,
because
I
was
tracking
number
of
people
who
were
joining
from
my
region
and
they
really
did
shoot
up
a
virtual
ones
from
india,
and
I
wanted
to
retain
that,
and
one
thing
that
came
up
was
that
people
were
like.
J
B
Yeah,
I
do
remember
we
had
some
of
those
conversations
and
I
think
we're
looking
at
how
to
get
better
data.
So
thank
you.
E
B
To
me,
the
purpose
is
for
them
to
meet,
to
meet
each
other
and
to
meet
a
few
friendly
faces
at
the
ietf.
One
of
the
challenges
with
asking
the
leadership
to
do
too
many
things
during
ietf
week
is:
the
leadership
is
very
busy.
So
this
is,
you
know.
B
You
know
a
few
like,
I
know
rich
and
I
have
done
a
number
of
these
coffee
breaks
virtually
and-
and
you
know
just
whoever
shows,
and
actually
when
they've
been
on
the
schedule,
especially
virtually
face
to
face
it's
been
harder,
but
virtually
like.
Sometimes
some
of
the
leadership
will
show
up
for
that.
But.
L
And
if
I
could
have
my
two
cents,
I
think
that
the
the
quick
connections
is
is
great
to
connect
newcomers
to
working
group
chairs
and
people
that
know
something
about
the
itf
at
the
very
beginning
of
the
week
and
the
intent
of
the
monday
night
newcomers
dinner.
It
was
newcomers
only
really
yeah.
So
it's
really
about
bonding
like
a
freshman
class
of
itfurs
and
getting
them
to
form
some
bonds,
and
then
I
think
that
the
coffee
breaks
are
sort
of
like
you've
been
here
for
a
couple
days.
L
B
Okay,
thank
you.
So
I
did.
B
Okay,
so
we
have
robert
was
saying
that
remember
the
session
will
be
available
later
choose
what
you
display
appropriately.
So
I
don't
think,
there's
anything
inappropriate
in
that
document.
It's
just
we
did
it
as
an
internal
document
as
a
help
to
ourselves
and
not
necessarily
something
that
we
planned
to
post
on
a
website,
but
it
does.
B
I
have
provided
the
link
if
you
want
to
go
in
and
take
a
quick
look,
especially
if
you're
interested
in
helping,
because
you
know
you'll
have
some
idea
of
what
what
you're
getting
yourself
into
so
the
next
steps,
like
I
said,
we're,
cleaning
up
and
getting
even
more
organized.
I
think
we've.
B
We
continue
to
learn
that
the
more
that
we
can
get
done
in
advance
about
you
know
understanding
what
goes
on
the
web
page.
What
goes
in
the
emails
that
need
to
go
out
when
the
emails
need
to
go
out
and
the
more
that
we
can
have
that
pre-stage,
which
is
which
is
really
what
michelle
and
jenny
have
been
doing,
has,
is
really
helpful.
B
So
for
ietf
115
there's
a
couple
things
I
wanted
to
highlight.
We
will
have
a
review
of
114
when
we
start
our
meetings
up
and,
and
in
that
we
look
at
what
do
we
think
worked?
Well,
what
wasn't
really
that
effective?
Are
there
any
new
ideas
that
we
want
to
try.
So
now
is
a
really
good
time.
If
anybody
has
any
new
ideas
to,
you
know,
drop
them
on
the
mailing
list
or
something
like
that
and
we'll
come
up
with
the
plan
for
115..
B
B
We
do
know
that
we
need
to
work
on
the
survey
and
there's
already
some
drafting
work
been
done
on
that
in
our
last
series
of
meetings.
B
We
want
to
look
at
what
are
our
success
measures
and
how
do
we
measure
that
success?
One
of
the
interesting
things
we've
been
discussing
a
little
bit
about
is
that
you
know
is
success.
Somebody
coming
and
participating
in
newcomer
programs
or
is
success.
B
Somebody
coming
to
the
ietf
and
being
successful
in
the
work
that
they
want
to
do
so
you
know
a
good
number
of
newcomers
come
to
the
ietf
and
they
have
support
from
their
institution
and
they
have
support
from
colleagues
that
they
already
know,
and
they
may
not
need
to
participate
in
newcomer
programs,
whereas
other
people
come
to
the
ietf
and
they're
not
at
all
familiar
and
they
they
really
like
that
support,
and
so
I
think
we
have
to
be
really
careful
with
the
metrics
that
we
define,
and
I
think
we've
struggled
with
that
for
a
while.
B
So
so
we
still
have
that
set
of
activities.
We
are
looking
at
extending
the
ietf
guides
program.
We're
planning
to
have
a
brainstorm
on
that
in
the
near
future.
We're
going
to
have
it
on
when
are
we
having
it?
Is
it
the
15th?
Do
you
remember
the
date.
B
B
C
I
don't
think
at
this
time
we're
just
really
dissecting
everything,
that's
happening
at
114
and
really
noting
what
worked
well
and
what
didn't
and
any
improvements
that
we
can
make.
And
I've
been
talking
to
a
lot
of
newcomers
at
this
meeting
and
I'm
going
to
be
following
up
just
to
gather
feedback
and
I'm
happy
for
anybody
to
talk
to
me
about
their
experience
and
what.
C
What
was
missing,
because
that's
really
what
we're
trying
to
figure
out
also
and,
like
karen
said,
we're
trying
to
figure
out
those
measures
of
success
and
we're
trying
to
be
very
careful
and
we're
going
to
incorporate
what
we
come
up
with
in
future.
Surveys.
To
really
focus
in
on
what
information
we're
trying
to
collect
and
measure.
So
andrew.
H
Hi,
it's
andrew
camping,
I'm
conscious
that
a
while
ago,
jay
from
one
of
the
previous
surveys,
one
of
the
stats
that
really
jumped
out
at
me
was
the
number
of
first-time
participants
that
we
never
see
again.
H
So
they
come
once
and
then
for
whatever
reason
that
you
might
infer
that
way,
maybe
it
wasn't
a
good
experience
or
achieve
whatever
they
wanted,
but
do
do
we
or
will
we
ask?
Are
you
gonna
come
again
and
if
so,
why
and
if
not,
why
not
something
as
simple
as
that
just
to
get
a
sense
of
because
they
made
the
effort
of
coming
once
it'd
be
a
shame
if
we
continue
without
such
a
high
attrition
rate,
because
that
feels
really
bad.
C
B
Okay,
any
other
questions
or
comments
on
the
newcomers
program.
K
I
was
curious
if
newcomers
included
just
newcomers
to
an
ietf
meeting
or
newcomers
to
ietf
mailing
lists
or
idf
participation
in
general.
It
seems
like
it
will
be
different
there
would
there
be
different
success
measures
and
different
needs.
B
So,
as
you
were
saying
that
I
I
realized,
one
of
the
other
things
that
I
had
wanted
to
mention
that
was
on
our
give.
A
think
about
list
is
how
we
define
newcomers
and
in
you
know,
years
ago,
newcomers
were
it's
the
fir
your
first
time
coming
to
a
physical
newcomer
meeting,
and
then
we
changed
it
to
five
or
fewer
meetings.
And
now
we
think
it's
a
even
more
general
definition
than
that,
and
we
don't
know
what
that
definition
is
yet.
A
Yeah,
that's
I
wanted
to
add
that
as
well
and
thank
you
nick
for
the
question
because
there's
some
interesting
work
by
the
soda
stream
project,
which
is
analyzing
a
lot
of
data
from
mailing
lists,
archives,
which
are
open
and,
for
example,
one
of
the
conclusions
that
they
came
with
was
that
people
who
joined
the
mailing
list
and
then
very
soon
after
they
joined
the
mailing
list,
had
an
interaction
with
someone
who
was
more
experienced
tended
to
stick
around.
A
And,
of
course,
we
don't
know
if
they
had
the
interaction
with
the
more
experienced
participant,
because
their
initial
intervention
was
more
interesting
to
experience.
Participants
or
you
know
what
the
the
cause
the
flow
the
flow
there
is,
but
but
also
just
to
point
out
that
also
yeah.
A
The
the
current
setup
is
is
seems
to
be
meeting
specific,
and
I
know
there's
thinking
about
that,
and
also
even
the
there's
been
discussion
about
the
term
of
newcomer,
because
people
who
self-identify
as
very
experienced
technologists
may
not
be
attracted
to
things
that
are
labeled.
As
for
newcomers,
so
yeah
just
the
I
know,
the
conversation
that
karen
and
folks
are
having
is
pretty
nuanced
about
stuff
yep.
E
Yeah
and
just
for
another
weirdness,
I
happen
to
be
sitting
in
a
room
today
where
the
chair
had
a
newcomers
ribbon
on
their
badge,
because
he's
been
around
for
a
long
time
in
the
community,
and
we
know
him
from
different
circles,
but
he
never
came
to
meetings
and
to
a
certain
extent
it
would
probably
be
useful
in
some
circumstances,
for
him
to
do
newcomer
stuff,
but
most
it
wasn't,
and
so
dividing
down
to
yeah
people
who've
been
participating
on
the
list
and
know
us
in
different
circumstances,
but
haven't
been
to
meetings,
are
a
class
that
we
want
to
sort
of
bring
in
once
they
hit
the
list
not
just
now
years
after
the
the
case.
K
K
Of
connections,
maybe
they
need
some
things
about
how
how
the
meeting
is
run.
But
I'm
concerned
more
about
that
that
sort
of
pipeline
effective
there
are
lots
of
people
who
come
to
our
mailing
list.
One
time
have
a
terrible
experience
and
then
leave
and
and
then
that
person
is
not
going
to
ever
attend
an
in-person
meeting.
So
it
might
be
a
different
sort
of
programs,
but
there
might
be
things
we
want
to
do
to
increase
that
pipeline
at
the
set
of
mailing
lists
or
online
level.
B
M
Greg
and
to
the
state
you've
gotten
an
earful
about
this,
as
as,
if
some
others,
participants
and
directorate.
But
I
think
that
one
of
the
most
important
things
we
can
do
is
that
when
somebody
shows
up
on
a
mailing
list
or
trying
to
write
a
draft
and.
M
And
and
intends
to
constructively
participate
that
we
don't
have
people
making
assumptions
about
who
they
are
and
what
their
motives
are
and
and
why
they're
doing
those
things
and
then
turning
around
and
generally
beating
them
up
without
listening
off
list
in
many
respects
that
not
a
problem
for
this
directorate.
But
it's
certainly
not
a
problem
for
anybody
else
either,
and
it's
definitely
a
problem
if
we
are
trying
to
recruit
newcomers
and
recruit
those
people
and
anybody
they
might
talk
with.
M
And
I
think
there
are
some
very
significant
steps.
We
need
to
be
taking
there
that
we
are
clearly
not
including
not
making
it
harder
to
figure
out
the
contact
with
those
issues
and
not
making
the
people
the
contact
blow
them
off.
B
No
thank
you
john.
I
know
we
have
teed
up
a
conversation
with
you
on
this
subject,
so
there
was
one
thing
I
wanted
to
go
back
to
real.
Briefly
on
the
you
know
changing
the
meaning
of
newcomers.
I
mean
it's
just
like
the
sort
of
some
of
the
challenges
that
we
see
here
with
the
you
know
the
tooling,
when
we
decide
we're
doing
one
thing
and
then
we
change
it.
Sometimes
that
has
a
whole
bunch
of
unintended
consequences.
So
one
of
the
things
is
is
that
you
know
there.
B
The
through
the
registration
system
is
where
we
identify
newcomers
and
it's
run.
You
know
it's
set
up
and
done
a
certain
way,
and
if
we
change
it,
we
the
registration
system
has
to
be
changed
or
the
tags
or
whatever
you
know.
I
don't
know
all
the
details
of
it,
but
but
these
are
things
where
you
know.
We
can't
just
snap
our
fingers
and
say:
okay.
This
is
the
new,
the
new
thing,
so
we
need
to
think
it
through
and
and
try
not
to
make
too
many
changes
too
frequently.
B
But
I
do
think
that
this
is
one
we're
definitely
interested
in.
In
looking
at
moving
forward
all
right
anything
else
on
newcomers
all
right,
so
the
next
thing
that
we
had
teed
up
was
an
idea
that
that
andrew
had
sent
andrew
sent
you
his
slides
and
not
me
right.
B
B
B
One
is,
we
do
have
open
meetings
like
virtual
meetings,
roughly
every
six
weeks
and
they
are
announced
on
the
emoji
mailing
list
and
they're
listed
in
upcoming
meetings,
and
so
that's
one
way
that
you
can
participate
the
second
way
and
I'm
a
lot
of
you,
I
believe,
are
already
this
way.
You
can
join
mailing.
The
mailing
list.
B
And
so
oh
look
at
that
slides
from
andrew
and
so
part
of
what
we're
encouraging
here
is.
If
people
go
back
and
look
at
the
agenda
and
look
at
the.
A
I
I
don't.
I
don't
think
that
they're
I
was
just
looking
at
our
agenda.
I
don't
I.
I
think
that
there
aren't
any
other
items
to
cover,
and
I
just
did
want
to
note
that
we're
scheduled
to
end
at
6
15,
I
think-
and
so
if
we
haven't
covered
something
here
and
you
aren't
yet
signed
up
for
the
emoji
list.
As
karen
said,
please
sign
up
for
the
emoji
list.
A
That's
a
good
way
to
stay
in
touch,
and
if
we
don't
cover
something
here
now
we
can
definitely
take
up
conversations
on
on
the
list
or
the
next,
it's
kind
of
a
virtual
interim,
but
not
really
yeah.
It's
not
officially.
Maybe
it
is
officially
virtual
interim
for
emoter
yeah
so
anyway.
So
if
you
have
good
ideas,
feel
please
feel
free
to
share
them
on
the
list
and
then
we
can
discuss
them
at
the
meeting.
H
Perfect
timing,
can
I
change
them
from
here
or
do
okay,
fine
right,
so
this
just
by
the
way,
a
bit
of
context.
This
is
that
we
discussed
briefly
at
the
last
virtual
meeting,
so
there's
a
bit
of
duplication
with
that,
but
I
figured
that
since
some
of
the
people
here
weren't
there
it'd
be
useful
just
to
refresh
memories
and
run
through
it.
So
it's
a
proposed
outreach
pilot.
H
This
is
driven
by.
I
think
I
I
certainly
have
a
view
that
the
voice
of
end
users
is
not
very
strong
in
in
the
ietf
community
or
it
could
be
stronger,
perhaps
there's
a
better
way
of
putting
it,
and
this
is
one
activity
of
maybe
several
that
will
help
that
to
improve
that
and
also
to
diversify
the
make
makeup
of
the
community.
H
So
next
slide,
please
so
the
the
intent
is
to
effectively
diversify
the
participation
beyond
the
tech
sector,
in
particular
with
specific
emphasis
on
civil
society
and
on
sort
of
enterprises
in
sectors
other
than
the
tech
sector.
It
doesn't
have
to
be
exclusively
limited
to
that,
but
that
will
be
the
primary
sort.
Two
focus
areas
and
the
objective
would
be
to
get
the
I
think,
rich
use
to
coin
this
phrase.
The
itf
curious
to
come
along
to
london
not
to
actually
come
to
the
main
meeting,
but
to
come
to
an
event.
H
That'll
be
effectively
co-located
with
the
main
meeting
to
engage
a
bit
and
use
that
as
a
way
to
try
and
encourage
them
to
engage
more
afterwards.
H
Okay,
so
just
be
using
the
fact
that
we're
going
to
be
in
london
and
take
advantage
of
having
some
of
the
community
there
to
try
and
just
get
them
to
make
the
next
step
and
answering
a
question
which
was
was
posed.
I
can't
remember,
by
whom,
at
their
last
virtual
interim,
I
propose
that
we
focus
principally
on
people
like
directors
of
policy
and
ctos
in
those
organizations,
not
because
they
will
necessarily
personally
be
the
future
participants,
but
they
will,
if
they're
persuaded
that
there's
a
business
case.
H
H
If
they're
effectively
the
their
leaders
make
the
decision,
it
will
be
a
good
idea,
so
they
just
tell
them
to
do
it
rather
than
have
to
be
persuaded
afterwards
and
my
assumption
for
what
it's
worth
is
because
it
f115s
in
london
that
it's
most
likely
to
be
attractive
as
a
session
to
people
who
are
in
europe,
not
that
it'd
be
limited
to
that.
H
H
So
for
clarity,
the
objective
is
to
broader
broaden
participation
in
the
itf,
not
necessarily
in
itf
meetings,
just
to
be
really
clear,
perhaps
picking
up
on
the
conversation
that
we
were
just
having,
but
it
might
be
that
the
future
engagement
by
those
organizations
might
be
on
mailing
lists
or
by
authoring
documents,
or
it
could
be
at
meetings
or
it
could
be
any
combination
of
those
things.
H
But
if
an
in
mailing
lists
that
I
think
that
will
be
a
reasonable
success,
if
they
even
if
they
don't
come
to
meetings,
I
don't
think
that's
important.
As
long
as
they're
there
there's
more
engagement.
H
The
structure
I'm
proposing
is
a
half
day
workshop,
as
I
say,
co-located
at
the
same
location
as
ietf
115,
just
because
that'll
make
the
logistics
a
lot
easier
for
everyone,
probably
starting
at
lunchtime
and
running
through
to
to
the
evening
so
half
day,
doing
it
at
lunchtime
so
that
people
that
coming
from
countries
in
europe,
but
not
not
the
uk
they've,
got
a
chance
to
actually
get
there
and
then
they
can
leave
at
the
end
rather
than
necessarily
having
to
stay,
commit
to
a
a
stay
overnight.
H
But
with
remote
access
for
those
people
that
don't
necessarily
want
to
travel,
that
will
be
a
bonus
if
we
can
do
remote
access
as
well.
Next
slide,
please.
H
H
For
the
small
font,
I
put
this
together
a
bit
quickly
just
before
the
meeting,
so
as
a
sort
of
proposed
structure
that-
and
this
is
only
a
just
as
a
a
working
suggestion-
basically
to
start
by
explaining
what
the
ietf
is
and
not
just
the
itf
itself,
but
the
various
associated
bodies,
the
irtf,
iesg,
etc.
H
So
just
explaining
that
up
front
will,
I
think,
reduce
the
complexities
to
people
that
want
to
engage
in
it.
And-
and
my
suggestion
is
that
jason
and
or
jay
would
be
the
ideal
people
to
maybe
lead
that
session,
because
they
probably
know
that
pretty
well.
I
would
hope,
then,
to
bring
in,
I
think,
be
useful
to
get
a
sense
of.
So
what
does
the
ietf
do
and
I
think
it'd
be
really
good
to
bring
in
the
area
directors
to
each
explain
in
very
high
level
terms
what
their
area
does.
H
Maybe,
with
a
view
to
saying
focus,
not
try
and
explain
everything,
because
that
will
take
probably
a
day
for
each
one
but
say
pick
one
or
two
working
groups
that
they
think
will
be
more
easy
to
understand
and
more
directly
relevant
to
the
target
community
than
just
say
what
they're
currently
working
on
that
is
relevant
to
that
target
community,
rather
than
everything
that
they
do,
which
is
a
long
long
conversation
and
a
lot
of
the
stuff.
Let's
be
honest,
is
quite
obscure
and
wouldn't
be
very
understandable.
H
So
just
pick
the
exciting
stuff,
basically
so
to
give
10
minutes
plus
five
minutes,
q,
a
for
each
area
and
so
using.
B
H
Fact
that
we're
on
site
with
the
meeting
to
bring
the
area
directors
into
the
room
physically
in
person,
then
move
on
to
explain
how
to
engage
with
the
itf,
because,
obviously
that's
the
primary
objective
of
this.
So
you
know
through
the
mailing
lists,
through
the
meetings
interim
meetings,
drafts,
etcetera,
etcetera,
so
just
bring
that
to
life,
how
they
can
do
stuff
with
the
community
and
that
and
then
finish
off
with
a
plenary
and
q
a
and
some
networking.
H
And
I
don't
think
I've
got
a
next
slide.
But
just
in
case
I
have.
H
Oh,
I
did
have
a
next
slide
right,
excellent,
I'm
glad
I
said
that
so
and
then
finally,
I've
had
some
very
informal
discussions
with
potential
participants,
so
some
business
bodies,
some
civil
society
groups,
just
literally
to
say,
explain
the
concept
and
say:
if
we
were
to
do
this,
would
you
come
so
not
committing
the
fact
that
it
will
happen,
but
just
say
hypothetically.
If
this
sort
of
thing
were
to
happen,
would
you
be
sufficiently
interested
to
come?
H
Would
you
recommend
this
to
your
members
to
come,
etc,
etc,
and
so
far
everyone
that
I've
spoken
to
has
said
yes,
that
they
would,
and
I
have
pressed
them
a
bit
to
make
sure
they're
just
not
being
polite
and
they
actually
do
mean
that
they
would
come,
and
they
assure
me
that
that's
the
case,
but
two
final
points:
one
is
london's
not
that
very
far
away.
Time-Wise
so
worry
to
do
this.
It's
going
to
take
some
time
to
actually
spread
the
word
and
get
people
to
get
it
in
their
diary.
H
So
we
would
need
to
make
a
decision
sooner
rather
than
later.
Whether
we
want
this
to
happen,
I'm
happy
to
really
lead
on
getting
people
to
commit
to
come,
but
really
need
some
help
from
the
sort
of
the
ihf
team
in
terms
of
making
sure
that
there
is
a
room
that
this
is
going
to
happen
in
that
we
can
get
the
area
directors
to
come
along,
and
you
know
basically
all
the
really
complicated
logistics
is.
H
You
know
I
can
get
bums
on
seats,
but
there
need
to
be
seats
and
people
to
talk
to
them
and
all
the
organizational
stuff.
So
it
needs
an
early
decision
sooner
rather
than
later,
whether
this
it
feels
like
the
right
thing
to
be
doing
and
I'll
stop
there.
C
Something
that
just
popped
in
my
head,
that's
probably
pretty
critical,
as
you
were
talking
about
having
the
80s
come
in
to
talk.
C
You
know,
the
itf
week
is
an
is
a
crazy
week
for
them
and
I
think
we're
gonna
have
to
do
some
careful
planning
with
finding
time
slots.
That
would
work,
and
just
that's
probably,
if
that's
really
important,
to
have
them
there.
That's
probably
something
that
has
to
be
considered
very
very
soon.
D
Thanks,
I
would
just
oh
sorry:
go
ahead,
mary.
G
Yeah
because
I
actually
want
to
add
something
I
think
there's
actually
zero
chance
to
get
like
most
of
the
area
actors
and
in
there
we
just
discussed
some
kind
of
retreat
like
things
that
we
that
the
iap
thinks
that
they
could
attach
to
a
meeting,
but
for
the
ihd,
this
is
kind
of
impossible.
So
I
don't
think
if
you
want,
especially
if
you
want
to
have
this
in,
like
this
large
scope,
that
is
absolutely
impossible.
I
think
also.
I.
G
I
really
want
to
say
that
there's
a
big
difference
between
policy
makers
and
industry,
and
I
think
they
they
not
only
need
different
information.
They
also
need
different
treatment
and
when
it's
about
policy
makers,
I
think
the
ib
needs
to
be
involved,
and
I
think
we
should.
We
should
rely
on
isoc,
because
icelock
has
already
these
relations
to
the
policy
makers
that
we
should
rely
on
and
there's
also
like
a
whole
lot
of
sensitivity.
G
Here
I
mean
I
understand
that
you
mainly
want
to
explain
how
the
ihf
works
to
these
people,
and
that
is
a
very
important
task,
and
we
should
definitely
do
that.
But
when
you,
when
you
actually
give
policy
makers
the
chance
to
to
come
and
have
this
special
forum,
we
also
have
to
prepare
to
be
prepared
for
all
kind
kind
of
questions
which
might
be
very
sensitive
and,
and
so
I
think
we
should
not
like
do
this
easily
yeah.
I
think
that's
my
point.
G
B
And
just
to
be
fair,
andrew
did
reach
out
to
me
and
ask
icehawk's
opinion
on
this,
and
I
just
haven't
gotten
back
to
him
yet
so
there's
a
lot
of
so
I
do
think
that
there
is
some
opportunity
there,
but
we'll
have
to
talk
about
it
further
and
obviously
we're
in
no
position
to
commit.
At
this
point.
D
I
just
want
to
chime
in
and
say
I
think,
mira's
point
about
the
area.
Directors
is
a
good
one.
I
mean
I've
seen
some
of
the
scheduling
conversations
it's
so
hard.
That
said,
I
love
this
idea.
D
I
think
this
would
piggyback
on
some
outreach
efforts
that
I'm
interested
in
from
you
know,
fundraising
and
recruitment.
I
also
think
it
would
be
really
good
in
helping
us
understand
how
to
talk
to
different
audiences,
and
you
know
I
agree.
The
policy
maker
conversations
are
different,
but
those
who
work
for
industry
and
then
work
in
policy
I
think,
can
straddle
that
line,
and
I
think
there
is
a
really
interesting
opportunity
for
engagement
there.
So
I
do
agree,
there's
a
lot
of
logistical
complications.
E
I
I
just
wanted
to
say:
don't
hang
your
hat
too
much
on
just
having
isg
people
there?
There
are
sufficient
numbers
of
us
ex
and
sufficiently
gray-haired
people
to
do
this
kind
of
stuff
and
not
interfere
with
their
whole
week,
which
I
think
with
ads
you're.
Inevitably
gonna
do
so
there's
lots
of
people
who
can
do
this.
J
J
I
think
why
is
the
most
important
question
that
why
should
enterprise
even
care
and
for
that,
instead
of
focusing
too
much
on
what
itf
does
and
how
sorry,
what
is
still
important
like
how
it
functions
is
not
the
most
important
thing
it's
like.
Why
should
they
participate
and
if
we
can
have
some
case
studies
on,
like
you
know,
like
even
listen
directly
from
enterprise
folks,
which
are
currently
there?
We
know
that
we
have
very
few,
but
there
are
they
are
here
and
we
could
maybe
use
them
as
are
like.
I
A
Cue
but
mira
did
you
have
one
thing
you
wanted
to
say.
G
Yeah
I
want
to
emphasize
this
again
that
I
think,
like
policymakers
and
and
industry
elite
is,
is
a
very
different
audience
and
we
should
not
put
them
together
because
they
need
different
information,
and
I
think
lee
berkeley
and
andrew
were
more
talking
about
enterprise
or
industry,
and
so
that's
a
different
business
and
sorry
it's
already
late.
G
I
lost,
I
lost
my
thought.
It
was
something
else
so
like.
I
think
the
challenge
here
is
actually
to
for
for
policy
makers.
We
also
should
like
rely
on
isoc's
context
right,
so
this
is
like
something
that
is
more
straightforward
for
me,
but
I
think
the
challenge
is
not
like
organizing
this
workshop.
The
chinese
actually
get
the
right
people
into
the
workshop.
H
Please
yes!
So,
just
on
on
the
policymakers,
I
should
say
my
background
is
as
a
policy
maker
in
in
industry.
So
in
case
I
wasn't
clear
that
the
intent
is
here
is
ideally
to
have
pairs
of
people,
so
the
sort
of
cto
and
the
director
of
policy
together,
because
the
cto
clearly
should
be
more
familiar
with
the
technical
aspects.
Up
to
a
point,
the
policy
director
will
have
a
much
better
understanding
of
how
that
relates
to
what
their
business
is
trying
to
achieve,
and
the
point
is
to
have
the
two
together
wherever
possible.
H
G
Together
with
with
governmental
representatives
from
the
kind
of
information
they
might
be
looking
for.
H
Okay,
so
the
sort
of
people
I
spoke
to
in
civil
society,
some
of
them
have
policy,
directors
and
and
also
ctos
within
civil
society
groups.
H
A
G
A
Actually,
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
agreement
about
the
potential
value
of
the
kind
of
outreach,
but
maybe
just
not
the
exact
proposed
format.
A
So
I
didn't
hear
anybody
say
no,
you
shouldn't
do
this,
but
just
not
maybe
not
in
this
format,
and
it
also
feels
like
there's
an
energy
around
the
table
or
around
the
virtual
table
to
I
saw
some
comments
in
the
chat.
Maybe
there's
a
conversation
that
can
continue-
and
I
know
time
is
short
for
1
15,
but
I
don't
know
karen
what
you
think
about
that.
B
Well,
I
think,
if
we're
going
to
do
it
for
115,
we
we
need
to
have
some
additional
conversations
and
we
need
to
get
those
scheduled
very
soon.
So
I
I
I
would
start
with
suggesting
the
group
of
people
that
are
really
interested
in
helping
to
drive
that
to
define
this
and
drive
it.
If
you
could
perhaps
identify
yourselves
to
greg-
and
I
afterwards
and
then
we
can
see,
see
what
the
possibilities
are
and
then
I
think
we
are
going
to
need
to
get
leadership
sign
off
on
this.
B
Yeah,
so
it's
it's,
it's
not
a!
I
think
that
there
is
a
lot
of
energy
and
there's
some
good
ideas
here.
We
need
to
figure
out
how
to
move
forward
with
them.
Part
of
what
we're
trying
to
do
with
emo
door
is
to
define
things
as
little
projects
that
can
pretty
much
work.
You
know
they
can
can
get
critical
mass
and
move
forward.
So
lee
are
you
willing
to
work
on
this?
I'm
going
to
put
you
on
the
spot.
Yes,
absolutely.
B
B
That's
it
okay!
So
I
deeply
thank
everybody
for
coming.
I
think
this
has
been
a
really
good
turnout
and
a
really
positive
discussion
join
the
mailing
list
volunteer
to
help
in
the
specific
things
that
you're
interested
in
and
join
the
next
virtual
interim
meeting
that
we
have,
which
will
probably
be
in
roughly
six
weeks
or
so
and
with
that
everybody
that's
here,
go
enjoy
the
social
and
all
the
remote
people
enjoy
wherever
you
are
and
thanks
everybody
again.