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From YouTube: IETF114-HRPC-20220728-1730
Description
HRPC meeting session at IETF114
2022/07/28 1730
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/114/proceedings/
A
A
I'm
just
pulling
up
meet
echo
on
my
laptop.
B
A
A
All
right:
well,
we
can,
we
can
go
ahead
and
get
started.
Also,
thanks
to
folks
who
attended
in
the
room,
I'm
gonna
have
to
do
a
few
things
about
people
in
the
room,
even
though
most
of
our
participants
are
online.
A
So
reminder
that
if
you
are
wanting
to
get
into
the
queue
later,
you'll
need
to
join
meet
Echo
from
your
mobile
phone
or
from
your
computer
to
get
in
the
queue.
So
please
do
that
also
for
the
blue
sheets
reason
then
also,
please
remember
you
have
to
keep
your
mask
on.
There
aren't
a
lot
of
us
who
are
pretty
spread
out,
but
it's
an
important
reminder,
because
it's
the
policy
of
the
event
and
yeah
I
think
actually
that's
it
so
from
here
then
we'll
just
transition
into
the
welcome
slide.
A
All
right,
so
this
is
the
agenda.
We
can
certainly
take
suggestions
to
it,
because
I
think
we
have
a
full
two
hours
and
and
plenty
of
of
time,
but
we
have
two
speakers
and
as
well.
We
have
two
drafts
to
talk
about
so
we'll
take
those
in
turn.
Both
speakers
are
going
to
have
30
minutes
and
then
essentially,
we
have
an
hour
for
other
for
other
working
group
stuff,
which
is
great
before
we
get
started.
I
think
this
is
more
of
a
reminder.
A
I'll
make
after
the
the
talks,
but
we
we
do
need
to
take
notes.
So
if
somebody
can
commit
now
to
taking
notes,
particularly
during
the
time
we're
talking
about
working
group
documents,
that
would
be
really
great,
so
I'm
going
to
pause
for
a
second
and
wait
for
a
volunteer.
A
Would
really
love
notes,
so
I'll
do
another
reminder
after
the
speakers
are
done.
Hopefully,
I'll
remember
because
yeah
we
need
to
capture
action
points
from
these
two
drafts.
A
You
can
you
can
take
them
and
then
upload
them
afterwards,
but
it's
entirely
up
to
you.
I'll
make
another
announcement
and
make
we'll
see
we'll
see,
but
thank
you
very
much
for
okay,
so
we
have
the
note
well.
The
note
well
has
several
different
portions
of
it
that
by
now
you've
seen
many
times,
but
the
first
portion
is
around
election.
Intellectual
property
so
know
your
responsibilities
around
that
an
important
one
as
well
part
is
the
part
of
the
note.
A
Well
is
the
privacy
and
code
of
conduct
So
within
that
know
that
this
session
is
being
recorded
and
other
than
that.
You
just
need
to
familiarize
yourself
with
with
this
policy,
so
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
and
welcome
you
all
to
the
hrpc
session,
which
is
part
of
the
irtf
internet
research
task
force,
we're
looking
at
the
longer
term.
Research
issue
related
to
human
rights,
as
with
other
research
groups
within
the
irtf,
we're
not
developing
standards.
But
we
are
writing
documents.
A
We
publish
informational
documents,
mostly
in
the
hrpc,
with
the
RFC
series
we
have
one
which
I'll
get
to,
but
we're
here
to
promote
research
in
this
area.
So
we're
also
looking
to
collaborate
with
others,
doing
research
and
other
research
institutions
and
it's
an
explicit
goal
of
the
irtf.
You
can
read
more
about
the
irtf
in
RFC
7418.
A
So
This
research
group
is
specifically
chartered
to
look
at
the
ways
that
the
universal
Declaration
of
Human
Rights
is
its
own
sort
of
standard
to
some
degree
and
how
it
overlaps
and
aligns
with
standards
development
for
the
long-term
sustainability
of
the
internet.
A
We
have
in
our
Charter
these
main
objectives,
so
we're
looking
at
the
relationship.
As
I
said,
we
have
a
specific
focus
in
the
udhr
on
two
main
rights.
The
first
is
freedom
of
expression
and
the
other
is
freedom
of
Association
and
assembly.
A
But
we
do
look
at
others
with
respect
to
the
right
to
privacy,
which
is
obviously
one
that
all
people
know
pretty
well,
there's
another
research
group
that
talks
about
privacy
considerations-
and
we
do
some
of
that
here,
obviously
because
it
is
human
right,
but
there
is
a
different
research
group
for
that
and
yeah.
If
you've
not
been
to
pair
G,
you
really
ought
to
it's
a
really
interesting
working
group
or
research
group
yeah
thanks
very
much
Nick
thanks
for
taking
notes.
A
A
We
tend
to
work
a
lot
outside
the
ietf
and
the
larger
internet
governance
space
and
we're
sort
of
really
talking
a
lot
about
the
work
here
outside
of
the
ietf,
irtf
and
I
think
bring
a
lot
of
those
experiences
in
working
outside
of
this
space
brings
a
lot
of
important
perspective
to
the
work,
then
that
we
end
up
doing
here
in
the
irtf2.
So
that's
an
explicit
goal
or
objective
of
hrpc
as
well,
so
we
do
drafts,
we've
helped.
Others
have
you
know
written
academic
papers.
A
Data
analysis
and
visualization
has
also
been
part
of
of
what
we've
had
folks
present
on
in
the
past
and
work
on
in
and
outside
hrpc,
and
then
there's
a
bunch
of
us
that
tend
to
do
reviews
outside
of
this
working
group
or
research
group
and
we're
mostly
focused
then
on
thinking
about
what
those
impacts
would
have
on
human
rights
and
vice
versa.
So
these
are
a
bunch
of
different
things
we're
doing
not
all
of
it
is
writing
drafts,
as
you'll
notice,
so
part
of
being
active
in
hrpc.
A
There's
a
lot
of
room
for
Creative
creative
contribution,
and
these
are
the
main
things
we've
got
on
our
on
our
plate.
I'm
going
to
take
this
off
because
I'm
having
trouble
breathing
the
we
were
sort
of
Chartered
way
back
in
2015.
There
was
work
that
led
to
that
moment
that
was
pretty
important
and
we've
also
had
an
RFC
published
that
really
lays
out
the
gamma
of
work
between
the
you
know:
human
rights
space
and
the
protocol
consideration
space,
RFC
8280
current
Rook.
We
have
two
drafts
right
now.
A
Our
draft
guidelines
is
very
much
an
iteration
on
the
the
8280
draft
that
lays
out
a
little
bit
more
succinctly
or
concisely
for
protocol
designers
what
they
might
be
looking
for
with
respect
to
Human
Rights.
So
it's
more
of
a
sort
of
checklist
or
or
guidance
document
right,
that's
in
the
queue
already
I
think
it
might
be
with
the
ircf
chair
and
then
freedom
of
Association,
the
internet.
We
have
a
full
discussion
planned
for
you
today,
because
there's
been
an
update
to
that.
A
There
are
other
drafts
in
this
group
that
have
expired,
but
so
we've
not
considered
those
for
now.
So
these
are
the
talks.
So
I
will
take
each
one
in
turn,
but
before
I
move
on
just
wanted
to
make
sure
there
are
no
questions
or
I'm,
not
forgetting
anything
in
the
welcome
Sophie.
Do
you
have
anything
you
want
to
say:
hey.
A
All
right
great
for
off
so
glad
to
have
you
with
you
with
us
you're
gonna
talk
us
on
Computing
with
within
limits
and
I
will
let
you
introduce
yourself
but
just
to
say
we're
really
happy
that
you've
come
to
talk
to
us
about.
A
This
really
want
the
rest
of
the
the
folks
here
to
realize
that
there
have
been
a
lot
of
discussion
of
these
same
topics
in
other
places
in
the
ietf
and
I
think
that's
valuable,
and
so
we're
really
happy
to
also
be
a
place
where
people
can
discuss
what
the
computation,
what
impact
computation
itself
is
having
on
on
the
environment,
on
the
sustainability
of
the
internet.
So
please
go
ahead.
I'm
going
to
put
myself
well
I
can't
put
myself
on
mute,
but
I'm
going
to
hand
you
I'm
gonna
hand
you.
D
Okay,
so
yeah
thanks
for
inviting
me,
this
is
going
to
be
a
little
bit
of
a
weird
talk
in
a
lot
of
different
ways
in
that.
Hopefully,
it
won't
be
boring
that
I
reflect
a
little
bit
on
what
brought
me
to
thinking
about
these
topics,
because
usually
it's
about
the
content
itself,
but
I
think
the
process
of
getting
to
thinking
about
these
questions
in
this
way
was
itself
part
of
the
challenge.
So
what
I
kind
of
want
to
talk
about?
D
Is
this
really
big
picture
question
of
where
we
headed
globally
from
Mostly
I'm
going
to
be
talking
about
a
sort
of
a
sustainability
perspective,
ecological
sustainability
and
related
sustainabilities?
D
And
then,
of
course,
what
can
be
done
about
it?
What
should
be
done
about
it-
and
you
know
my
background
before
I
started
thinking
about
these
questions-
was
a
very
traditional
sort
of
networking
background.
When
I
did
my
PhD
in
networking,
you
know
I
wasn't
working
on
any
sustainability
or
energy
or
any
of
that
kind
of
stuff
it
was.
It
was
all
you
know,
relatively
standard
congestion
control.
You
know
routing
protocols,
privacy
and
security.
D
Those
were
sort
of
the
areas
of
my
my
research
focus
and
they
still
are
to
a
certain
extent
today.
But
I
went
from
that
being
100
of
my
research
to
a
third
of
my
research
being
sort
of
traditional
networking,
a
third
of
it
being
privacy
and
security
and
then
a
third
of
it
being
things
like
Agriculture
and
urban
planning
and
things
that
don't
have
anything
to
do
with
my
my
actual
formal
background
and
what
the
the
steps
that
it
took.
D
D
So
you
know
this.
This
notion
of
limits
has
been
on
my
mind
for
quite
some
time,
and
you
know
the
term
really
sort
of
came
to
prominence
from
the
classic
study
limits
to
growth
in
the
1970s,
and
then
it
was
updated
several
times,
and
the
interesting
thing
about
that
study,
which
I'll
I'll
have
a
little
bit
more
about
later,
is
that
it's
actually
deeply
insightful,
but
it
kind
of
got
lost
over
the
years
it
got.
It
was
got
a
lot
of
popular
sort
of
attention
in
the
1970s.
D
D
But
the
actual
core
message
of
it
is
quite
important
that
you
know
the
there
are
ecological
limits
that
the
world
lives
within,
and
it
would
be
good
to
understand
what
is
the
dynamic
of
that,
and
so
as
systems
people
I
think
we
can
kind
of
appreciate
that
systems
have
various
Dynamics.
They
have
feedback
loops.
They
have.
D
What
are
the
impacts
to
Computing
of
limits
and
what
are
the
contributions,
both
positive
and
negative,
that
Computing
can
make
to
the
limits
that
Society
faces
globally,
and
so
you
know
a
natural
place
that
I
started,
which
is
where
I
think
everybody
starts
in
Computing
is
how
do
we
use
energy
because
you
know
Computing
fundamentally
requires
you
know
significant
energy
and
our
Global
footprint
of
computing
and
energy
has
been
going
up
and
up.
So
then,
the
the
big
question
in
my
mind
and
sort
of
that
time
frame
was
how
do
we
use
energy?
D
What
are
the
consequences?
First
I
want
to
understand
the
global
energy
picture
and
then
sort
of
narrow
down
onto
the
Computing
energy
picture,
and
you
know
there
are
some
natural
places
that
you
start
even
then
it's
the
personal
footprint,
so
you
know,
there's
lots
of
calculators,
I'm
sure
you've
seen
them
carbon
footprint
energy
footprint.
You
can
go
and
find
your
own,
and
you
know
the
sort
of
the
broad
notion
out
there
in
sustainability
world
is.
D
We
should
Target
everybody
living
a
2000,
Watt
lifestyle
that
is
sort
of
where
you
want
to
be
in
the
U.S,
we're
sort
of
averaging
above
10
000
watts
per
person,
though
really
we
want
to
be
closer
to
2000
watts
per
person
globally
to
to
both
have
sort
of
sustainable
energy
use,
but
also
Equitable
energy
use.
D
So
you
know
I
looked
into.
This
was
my
personal
footprint
when
I
ran
it
through
one
of
these
calculators
several
years
ago,
and
so
I
was
thinking
about
that
and
then
said,
okay.
Well,
where
do
we
get
energy
from
and
that
takes
you
down
the
usual
rabbit
holes
of?
Like
oh
wait,
will
we
use
a
lot
of
oil?
So
what
why
do
we
use
oil?
D
Well,
it's
really
use
useful
and
you
know
we
don't
think
about
these
questions
very
often
as
computer
scientists,
and
so
what
are
we
going
to
do
after
we
start
running
a
little
bit
low
on
these
fossil
fuels
that
provide
most
of
the
calorie
input
into
the
foods
that
we
eat,
and
so
you
know,
and
all
the
things
that
are
made
from
oil
are
sort
of
all
around
us
that
we
don't
even
think
about
them
on
a
daily
basis
and
so
these
fossil
fuels
that
are
depleting
that
you
know
are
used
also
in
as
a
strategic
resource
right.
D
So
there's
geopolitical
and
economic
considerations
there
we
think,
okay.
Well,
let's
make
things
more
efficient.
Maybe
Society
can
be
made
more
efficient.
Maybe
Computing
can
be
made
up
for
more
efficient
and
maybe
Computing
and
make
Society
more
efficient
right.
We've
considered
all
of
those
things
societally
and
in
the
research
community
and
then
there's
the
other
sort
of
twin
problem.
D
There's
the
energy
problem,
which
exacerbates
climate
change,
but
there
also
is
energy
by
itself
as
a
problem
in
terms
of
the
non-renewability
and
finite
resources,
and
also
just
sort
of
uneven
distribution
of
those
resources.
But
the
climate
change
picture
has
both
clarified
and
intensified
since
I
started.
D
Looking
into
this
question-
and
it's
not
just
me
but
I'm,
saying
from
my
sort
of
personal
Journey
looking
into
this,
you
know
starting
maybe
15
years
ago,
and
you
know
we
all
know
sort
of
we
hear
degree
C
in
the
news
and
we
sort
of
have
a
notion
of
what
these
things
actually
mean.
And
you
know
a
fair
amount
of
climate.
D
Science
is
basically
saying
and
has
been
saying
for
quite
some
time,
that
there
isn't
much
of
a
chance
to
actually
stay
below,
what's
considered,
quote,
unquote
dangerous
levels
of
climate
change,
given
the
actual
emissions
trajectories
that
the
world
has
been
on,
and
so
there's
this
question
of
like
what
do
we
do
about
these
this?
These
twin
problems
that
exist?
That
then
affect
everything
they
affect.
You
know
everything
in
every
sector
of
Life
across
the
world,
and
so
you
know
we
have
the
usual
two
choices.
D
We
can
change
our
behavior
and
we
use
fewer
resources,
we
use
less
energy
and
we
can
change
the
sources
and
find
more,
and
so
you
know
this
naturally
led
me
down
that
path.
Tom
Murphy
from
UC
San
Diego
has
an
excellent
book
and
website.
So
his
website
was
do
the
math
he
compiled
all
of
his
writings
into
a
book.
That's
freely
available
things
called
energy
and
human
ambition
on
a
finite
Planet
I
think
is
the
name
that
you
can
find
it
on.
D
Do
the
math,
and
so
this
is
one
of
the
tables
he
put
together.
He
went
and
he
did
a
sort
of
first
principle,
Deep
dive
on
all
of
the
different.
You
know
energy
options
that
are
out
there
and
he
said:
what's
what's
the
best
option,
that's
available?
What
are
the
different
criteria
that
we
should
care
about?
You
know
how
abundant
is
it
difficult
to
produce?
Does
it
produce
electricity
and
heat
and
can
be
used
for
transportation
Etc?
D
So
this
is
all
of
the
Alternatives
and
he
sort
of
created
this
very
rough
categorization
ranking
for
them,
and
so
you
see
solar
is
sort
of
at
the
top
and
then
there's
a
number
of
other
popular
Renewables.
The
highest
score
in
his
little
table
here
is
five
for
solar
and
then
he
said
what
about
fossil
fuels,
and
it
reminds
you
very
quickly
of
well.
D
This
is
why
we
use
those
those
sources
of
energy
if
you
leave
out-
and
he
intentionally
left
out
the
climate
impact
of
these
things
just
to
consider
the
current
non-uh
sort
of
internalized
costs
of
these,
because
sort
of
climate
change
has
been
an
externality
for
all.
For
all
this
time,
people
have
a
real
good
reason
to
continue
using
fossil
fuels
and
it's
hard
to
scale
up
those
Alternatives,
and
so
you
know
I
looked
into
you
know.
D
Well,
why
haven't
we
gotten
what
we
thought
we
were
going
to
get
in
terms
of
alternative
energy
sources?
What
are
the
Alternatives
available?
Can
we
move
Computing
to
them
and
can
we
move
Society
to
those
Alternatives
and
then
it's
happening,
but
it's
happening
slowly
and
so,
if
you
actually
so
Saul
Griffith
had
been
giving
this
excellent
talk
and
it's
still
sort
of
a
good
talk
to
go
watch
about
you
know
what
are
the
different
energy
options?
How
quickly
do
we
need
to
build
stuff,
and
so
we
said
okay?
D
Well,
let's
say
we
have
this
sort
of
as
our
power
profile
sources
of
energy.
You
know
in
2035
something
like
that.
So
you
know
you
still
have
a
little
bit
of
fossil
fuels.
You
have
a
little
bit
more
of
everything
else
and
then
he
said:
okay.
D
Well,
how
fast
would
you
have
to
build
this
because
it's
a
physical
infrastructure
that
has
to
be
built
across
the
globe,
and
so
these
are
roughly
the
numbers
that
he
came
up
with
of
you
know,
you'd
have
to
build
to
build
just
that
little
wedge
of
solar
photovoltaic.
You
need
100
square
meters
of
foldable
voltaics,
built
and
deployed
every
second
globally
for
20
years
and
so
on
down
the
list,
and
so
then
I
I
thought:
okay.
Well,
how
feasible
is
this,
so,
let's
look
at
the
manufacturing
capacity,
so
I
went
and
looked
into.
D
What
does
the
industry
estimate
and
it's
not
you
know,
maybe
it's
half
of
what
the
best
estimates
and
optimistic
estimates
for
manufacturing
this
stuff
is
something
like
half
for
each
of
these
categories,
and
so
what
that
sort
of
led
me
to
conclude
is
that
we
need
to
do
sort
of
a
crash
program
to
over
20
years
to
cut
our
energy
use,
and
even
if
we
did
that
as
fast
as
possible,
we'd
probably
be
about
50
short
of
our
targets,
which
means
probably
we're
going
to
end
up
overshooting
on
the
climate
side
rather
than
cutting
our
energy
use
proactively.
D
So
that
leaves
us
in
sort
of
a
you
know
a
difficult
position
right,
and
that
brings
us
back
to
the
limits
to
growth.
So
you
know
the
thing
that
they
had
considered
was.
They
said:
okay,
well,
there's
a
lot
of
different
scenarios
about
where
the
world
is,
and
so
they
took
a
baseline
scenario
scenario
one
in
their
models,
and
they
said
we
have
the
resources
we
have.
Today
we
have
the
ecosystem
functions.
We
have
today
the
policies
we
have
today.
This
is
the
update
from
2004.
D
and
they
said
what
happens
if
we
just
run
those
that
simulation
forward
in
time
they
said.
Well,
we
end
up
with
a
resource
crisis.
A
resource
crisis
in
their
terms
is
where,
because
of
insufficient
non-renewable
resources,
specifically,
you
know:
fossil
fuels,
industrial
output
and
thus
economic
output
starts
faltering.
Sometime
in
the
2020s
is
what
you
know
and
the
exact
numbers.
Of
course
don't
you
know
their
simulation
doesn't
have
the
granularity
to
be
able
to
deliver
that
kind
of
detail,
but
that
was
sort
of
the
time
frame
that
they
were
saying.
D
Things
would
start
faltering
and
then
they
said
well.
The
world
may
discover
greater
more
energy
resources
somewhere.
They
may
be
doing
you
know
through
more
oil
drilling.
You
know,
and
gas
drilling
we've
seen
that
in
the
fracking
boom
and
all
sorts
of
other
sort
of
ways
that
oil
and
other
resources
might
be
extracted.
So
they
said
what
happens
if
we
have
way
more
resources.
Big
scenario,
two
in
scenario:
two,
you
end
up
with
a
pollution
crisis.
D
The
economic
crisis
gets
delayed
about
20
years,
because
you're
able
to
find
more
resources,
so
you
can
keep
the
economic
growth
going,
but
you
then
overshoot
on
pollution
and
then
the
ecosystem
crashes,
and
as
a
result
of
that
food
production
and
other
things
start
declining
rapidly.
And
so
then
you
end
up
with
you
know:
sort
of
a
Sharp
decline
later
you
know
by
20
years
or
30
years,
something
like
that
and
so
the
thing
that
sort
of
struck
me
after
I
went
through
this
process.
D
Myself
of
thinking
about
you
know,
what's
my
role
in
this
when
what's
the
state
of
the
world
about
this,
and
then
I
came
back
to
the
limits
to
growth
and
said:
okay,
what
were
they
really
talking
about
we're
kind
of
stuck
between
these
two
scenarios
right
now
and
we're
kind
of
facing
them
down
simultaneously?
D
If
you,
you
know
just
read
the
news
daily
you'll
see
we're
kind
of
facing
down
these
exact
two
scenarios
on
a
daily
basis
right
now,
it's
not
clear
which
one
of
them
we're
in,
but
it
seems
like
we're
in
half
of
one
and
half
the
other,
and
you
know
people
have
been
talking
about
this
from
a
long
for
a
long
time.
So
you
know
I
found
that
Carter
had
been
talking
about
this
in
1974..
D
This
was
during
the
time
when
there
were
sort
of
more
manifest
energy
limits
that
were
apparent
and
then
through
more
Drilling
and
sort
of
you
know.
You
know
other
sort
of
factors.
You
know
this
was
sort
of
Forgotten,
and
so
that
sort
of
brings
me
back
to
okay.
Well,
what
do
we
do
about
this?
What
do
we
do
about
this,
both
as
individuals
and
then
also
as
computer
scientists
and
then
even
more
specifically,
perhaps
as
networking
people
but
I?
D
You
know
I
try
not
to
put
that
hat
on
unless
I
have
to
in
this
question,
so
the
natural
places
that
people
go
and
I've.
You
know
there's
more
attention
to
this
now
and
I.
Think
it's
great
is
sustainable.
Computing
and
I
want
to
distinguish
sustainable
Computing
from
Computing
for
sustainability,
sustainable
Computing
I,
see
as
how
do
we
make
Computing
itself
sustainable
use,
fewer
resources
have
less
E-Waste
use
less
electricity.
You
know
design
for
reuse
and
repair.
You
know
all
of
that
kind
of
stuff
I
would
put
under
sustainable
computing.
D
Then
there's
Computing
for
sustainability,
which
is
how
do
we
use
Computing
to
make
the
rest
of
society
all
the
different
things
that
we
do
in
our
daily
lives,
more
sustainable,
and
so
you
know
what's
sort
of
been
done
in
that
and
what's
important
I
would
say
that
I.
What
I've
kind
of
concluded
is
that
the
ratio
of
importance,
in
my
mind,
is
five
to
ninety
five
percent.
D
Sustainable
Computing
itself
is
important.
We
should
put
our
efforts
into
it,
but,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
Computing
uses
a
small
amount
of
total
resources
globally,
probably
around
five
percent
of
energy,
and
so
you
know
part
of
the
way
that
I
sort
of
came
to
this
conclusion
was
in
2011
I've,
been
wondering
about
this
question,
so
we
wrote
a
short
paper
in
hot
Nets,
energy
and
energy
of
the
internet.
D
Where
we
looked
into
it
was
very
rough
calculation
of
what
how
much
energy
does
the
internet
use
both
in
wall
socket
power
and
in
the
manufacturing,
energy
that
goes
into
actually
building
everything.
That's
used,
all
of
our
networking
devices,
small
and
big,
and
at
the
time
we
concluded
that
the
internet,
if
you
include
both
the
embodied
energy
and
the
wall,
socket
power,
something
like
300,
gigawatts
Global.
D
So
it's
everything,
a
grad
student
who
I
work
with
updated
these
numbers
last
year
and
I
think
it's
maybe
doubled
or
two
and
a
half
times
in
over
10
years.
D
So
but
the
amount
of
traffic
that
the
internet
carried
has
per
year
has
gone
up
way
more
than
that.
So
the
efficiency
of
the
internet
has
actually
gone
up
quite
a
bit,
so
the
sort
of
joules
per
byte
has
plummeted
over
10
years,
which
is
really
a
testament
to
the
networking
Community,
making
things
much
faster
and
more
efficient
without
using
too
much
more
energy
to
do
it.
So
that's
great
so
after
I'd
sort
of
been
looking
into
that
I
thought.
Okay.
Well,
maybe
you
know
we
have
two
choices.
D
We
can
work
on
sustainable
Computing
or
Computing
for
sustainability,
and
the
conclusion
I
came
to
was
really
that
Computing
still
is
a
small
piece
of
the
overall
puzzle.
If
you
actually
go
look
you
know,
agriculture
is
about
a
third
of
total
carbon
emissions
globally
and
transportation
is
just
under
that,
and
power
generation
is
just
under
that.
D
So
these
are
huge
sectors
of
economic
life
and
daily
life
that
are
perhaps
more
affecting
our
society
than
Computing
is
and
Computing
can
maybe
be
used
to
help
in
this
context,
and
so
those
are
the
four
big
ones
that
I've
started
looking
into
I
haven't
really
done
too
much
on
the
manufacturing
piece,
but
agriculture,
transportation
and
power
generation
have
been
areas
that
I've
been
interested
in
Agriculture
and
power
generation
specifically
have
sort
of
focused
on
especially
the
agriculture
piece
and
I
can
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
that
research.
D
The
specific
research
there,
if
someone's
interested
the
the
gist
of
it,
is
that
I
think
it's
important
not
to
bring
just
an
optimization
mindset.
So
the
natural
thing
that
I
tend
to
see
when
people
do
Computing
for
sustainability
is
say,
look
at
a
some
other
sector
and
they're
all
desperate
for
computer
scientists,
at
least
they
seem
to
be
because
they
want
our
help
in
processing.
Big
data
sets
and
doing
analysis
and
throwing
machine
learning
models
at
everything.
D
D
How
do
we
look
at
different
systems
of
Agriculture
other
than
sort
of
monoculture,
industrial
agriculture,
which
is
very
unsustainable
as
it's
practiced,
mostly
in
everywhere
in
the
world
today,
because
if
we
optimize
that
system
further,
if
we
say
well,
we
can
irrigate
a
little
better,
because
we
can
throw
this
machine
learning
model
at
it
or
we
can
fertilize
better.
Then
you
know,
ultimately,
that
system
is
still
a
broken
system.
It's
just
further
entrenched,
so
instead
it
may
sound
crazy.
But
you
may
remember
this
work
on
headerspace
analysis
that
was
done.
D
I,
don't
know
about
10
years
ago,
where
they
were
looking
at
packet
headers.
And
how
do
you
analyze?
You
know
the
the
state
of
all
past
possible
packet,
headers
and
all
the
things
you
can
do
and
sort
of
there's
interesting,
formal
methods
that
come
out
of
that.
It
turns
out
that
you
can
actually
use
a
states-based
type
analysis
and
apply
that
thinking
to
Agriculture
and
that's
what
we've
been
doing,
because
agriculture
in
some
ways
is
a
state-space
planning
problem
and
so
by
reconceptualizing
it
that
way.
D
We
then
are
basically
searching
the
state
space
of
possible
Agro
ecosystems
to
be
designed,
and
so
that's
sort
of
the
research
that
I'm
doing
it's
way
outside
of
the
realm
of
normal
networking,
I'm
working
with
people
from
computer,
graphics
and
reinforcement,
learning
and
some
actual
agriculture,
people
and
I
do
a
lot
of
Agriculture
sort
of
myself
as
a
personal
interest.
So
it's
a
very
weird
direction
for
a
networking
person
to
go
in
power
generation
is
something
that's
a
little
bit
closer
to
home
for
most
networking.
D
Folks,
there's
a
lot
of
work
you
can
do
in
that
space
on
sort
of
micro
grids
and
sort
of
planning
of
renewable
energy
use
both
for
computing
and
non-computing
uses
Denver's
sort
of
stepping
back
further
from
sectors
to
the
bigger
picture
things
in
in
life
right.
How
do
we
consume
things?
How
do
we
produce
things?
How
do
we
finance
things
and
how
do
we
govern
and
I
think
those
are
things
that
ITF
actually
knows
quite
a
bit
about
in?
D
If
you
think
it's
sort
of
a
metal
level
of
what
does
ietf
do
as
an
organization
and
irtf
do
as
an
organization
and
then
there's
the
even
bigger
picture,
which
is
extremely
challenging
as
engineers
and
researchers
is
to
tackle.
But
really
these
are
the
things
that
shape
our
society
and
force
us
to
make
the
choices
that
we
do
the
culture
and
the
perspective,
the
flexibility
we
have
with
the
choices
we
make
and
the
wisdom
we
have
been
choosing
them
so
Strange,
Talk
I,
know
I'd
love
to
chat
with
you
all
about.
D
Where
do
we
go
from
here
and
I
wanted
to?
Finally,
leave
you
with
this
quote
from
limits
to
growth,
about
where
do
we
go
from
here.
A
Thanks
so
much
baraf
I
was
just
finishing
reading.
That
quote,
which
is
a
really
good
one.
The
world
is
far
too
complex
for
easy
solutions.
So
thanks
for
bringing
a
really
complex
talk
to
us,
so
we've
got
the
Mike
Q
open
reminder
that,
if
you're
on
site,
you
want
to
get
in
the
queue
with
the
app.
F
Hi
broth:
this
is
a
great
talk.
F
This
is
Louis
Eggert
I
mostly
came
up
because
I
sort
of
got
interested
when
you
mentioned
your
hotness
paper
from
way
back
when,
because
I
remember,
I
started
and
I
forgot
about
it,
and
thanks
for
reminding
me
so,
the
IEP
is
actually
looking
into
a
workshop,
which
is
not
sort
of
super
related,
but
it's
basically
looking
at
the
environmental
footprint
of
the
internet
and
its
applications
and
services
and
I
would
be
I'm,
hoping
that
you'd
be
interested,
and
you
have
other
people
to
bring
to
that
conversation.
F
So
I'm
going
to
send
you
an
email
about
that,
I'm
also
mentioning
to
other
people
in
the
crowd
that
might
be
interested
on,
that
you
can
send
email
to
the
hrpc
list
and
we'll
connect
you
to
that
effort.
Thank
you.
A
C
C
But
then
how
would
you
translate
that
back
to
what
individuals
and
institutions
can
do
and
should
do,
and
how
do
you
think
an
institution
such
as
the
ITF
irtf
should
conceptualize
this
so
because,
because
I
get
how
we
measured
back,
but
how
do
we
measure
then
back
up
and
how
do
we
operationalize
and
instrumentalize
that.
D
Yeah,
that's
a
great
question:
it's
one
I've
been
struggling
with
so
I.
Don't
think
I
have
a
clean
answer
to
it,
but
I'll
give
it
a
try.
So
you
know
I
the
way
I
look
at
it
is
at
the
individual
level.
What
I
I
found
has
been
useful
is
leveraging
my
thinking,
my
sort
of
systems,
thinking
as
a
networking
person
in
applying
it
in
these
other
contexts.
Now
that's
not
a
direct
route
at
all,
because
you
know
that.
D
Doesn't
that
doesn't
speak
to
quite
your
idea,
question
I'll
try
and
do
that
in
a
sec,
but
at
least
as
individuals
I
found
that
we
actually
do
have
a
unique
way
of
thinking
of
systems.
Thinking
that
really
out
there
is
not
very
common
and
what
I've
found
is
ecologists
may
be
as
close
to
computers.
Networking
people
as
you
will
find
in
other
disciplines,
but
ecologists
get
no
attention.
Nobody
pays
attention
to
what
ecologists
are
saying.
D
So
that's
how
I
think
we
actually
contribute
I
found
that
when
I
talk
to
these
agriculture
colleagues,
they
are
stuck
the
few
very
few
people
who
want
to
sort
of
change
the
way
agriculture
works,
both
in
Academia
and
Industry,
get
very
little
attention
and
it's
very
sort
of
reductive,
simple
approaches
that
tend
to
dominate,
but
they
don't
know
how
to
think
computationally
and
sort
of
in
the
way
we
do.
So
that's
that's.
D
At
the
personal
level,
at
the
institutional
level
that
gets
a
little
more
tricky
because
ietf
I
imagine
has
a
closer
mandate
tied
to
the
internet
and
networking.
Then
we
can't
you
know
itf's
not
going
to
be
doing
anything.
Agriculture
related
likely
I
think
anytime
soon,
but
the
one
place
this
can
tie
in
is
a
perfect
example.
This
is
in
sort
of
renewable
energy
use
of
data
centers
of
networking
facilities.
D
If
you
look
at
all
the
various
big
companies,
they
all
have
tried
to
at
least
have
public
messaging
about.
We
want
to
use
green
energy,
we
want
to
be
renewable
Etc,
but
you
look
in
the
fine
print
and
there's
actually
important
details
that
are
left
out.
I'd
say
many
of
them
are
not
really
doing
it.
D
They
do
things
like
they
say
well.
Over
over
the
Year,
we
We
purchase
enough
renewable
energy.
To
offset
our
you
know
our
usage,
but
the
diurnal
patterns
of
renewable
energy
tend
to
completely
make
that
irrelevant,
because
you
can
buy
a
bunch
of
useless
solar
power.
That's
getting
burned
because
nobody
can
consume
it
during
the
middle
of
the
day
and
then
you're
buying
a
bunch
of
coal
or
natural
gas
power
at
nighttime.
D
D
Yeah,
maybe
I
mean
there
are
probably
people
who
have
much
deeper
expertise
than
me
on
this,
but
I
I
know
some
of
those
folks
so
I
can
we
can
rope
them
in.
Thank
you.
G
Yeah,
thank
you
for
a
very
useful
and
and
insightful
talk.
I
think
it's
useful
for
for
maybe
many
of
us
who
are
in
the
situation
of
not
quite
knowing
all
the
details
of
this
area,
but
caring
more
about
it
to
to
have
some
of
that
context.
G
I
I'm
sort
of
struck
by
this
sort
of
all
people
and
institutions
quote,
as
as
maybe
addressing
the
question
of
your
your
sort
of
earlier
point
about
which
things
are
likely
to
have
the
most
impact
and,
and
so
I
I
have
the
intuition,
and
maybe,
since
you've
thought
more
about
this,
you
can
give
us
some
insight
into
it.
G
It
also
sounds
like
well
for
an
emergency
situation
where
we
have
to
reduce
energy
usage
by
this
enormous
amounts
that
we're
actually
going
to
have
to
work
in
all
areas
in
parallel,
rather
than
just
working
on
the
largest
areas,
so
yeah,
maybe
600
gigawatts
is
not
that
much
still
sounds
like
still
sounds
like
quite
a
bit
so
I
I
wonder
if
that
means
like
we,
we
should
be
trying
to
make
everything
sustainable,
even
not
the
largest
users,
but
I'm
also
curious.
If
there's
like
General
things.
G
D
D
The
part
of
the
reason
that
I
focused
on
things
outside
of
computing
and
making
Computing
more
efficient
is
that
the
incentives
are
already
lined
up
for
larger
companies
to
make
Computing
more
efficient,
simply
because
Renewable
Power
has
become
cheaper
and
it's
easier
to
power
Computing
using
renewable
energy,
so
at
least
from
the
operational
energy
use
standpoint
of
data
centers,
and
so
on.
That's
already
happening,
so
you
know
my
attention.
There
isn't
going
to
improve
or
hinder
things.
D
Lack
of
attention
is
going
to
hinder
things,
whereas
in
agriculture
there's
so
much
they're
the
low-hanging
fruit
is
enormous
and
you
know
not
very
much
is
being
done.
D
D
So
it's
the
manufacturing
energy
amortized
over
the
lifespan
of
the
device
and
that
really
points
to
keeping
things
longer,
keeping
old
equipment
running
longer,
especially
if
you
can
just
run
it
on
Renewable
Power,
when
the
Renewable
Power
is
available,
is
actually
a
net
win
from
an
energy
standpoint,
and
so
that
is
a
whole
agenda.
I
think
an
interesting
networking
and
systems
agenda
on
its
own.
How
do
you
keep
old
stuff
running
in
a
way
that
it's
still
useful
to
delivering?
D
You
know
to
running
systems,
and
do
it
in
a
way
that
you
only
run
it
when
there's
Renewable
Power
available
foreign.
E
Great
perspective
and
I'm
wondering
if
you
could
say
a
word
about
at
this
intersection
between
ietf
and
the
perspective
you
you
share
this
very
Global
Perspective.
Thus,
culture
stand
out
as
the
opportunity
where
ietf
could
do
a
lot
more
in
order
to
impact
all
the
secondary
things
that
only
culture
can
really
change.
D
Obviously,
ITF
has
huge
influence
in
the
networking
World
outside
of
ietf.
It
probably
has
less
of
an
influence
at
the
sort
of
computing
World
level,
so
not
networking
specific
and
then
maybe,
like
even
less
once.
You
get
one
step
further,
but
it
may
be
the
case
going
back
to
this
thing
about
ecologists,
having
very
little
voice
in
sort
of
everyday
life.
D
We
at
least
have
more
of
a
voice
because
we're
providing
you
know
critical
infrastructure
for
the
world,
and
so
in
that
sense
people
will
actually
listen.
The
question
is:
how
do
we
tie
it
I
think
to
the
culture
question:
how
do
we
tie
the
changes
we
want
to
see
in
the
broader
culture
to
what
people
see
as
our
remit,
and
so
probably
the
the
cleanest
Leverage
is
relating
to
internet
infrastructure?
One
of
those
can
be
about
sustainability
of
the
internet's
infrastructure.
You
know
we
can
you
can
frame
it
in
many
different
ways.
D
Climate
disasters
will
lead
to
Internet
outages
and
therefore
we
need
to
plan
for
resilience.
Planning
for
resilience
means
local,
renewable
energy.
This
is
how
we
think
it
should
be
done,
and
we
know
because
we're
the
idea,
so
that
sort
of
provides
a
through
line.
Maybe
and
then
the
culture
piece
can
then
come
from
out
of
that
now.
I'm
just
thinking
out
loud,
though
thank
you.
H
Hello,
Tom,
Hill
I
hope
you
can
hear
me
an
absolutely
fascinating
quest.
Talk
bro
if
I
actually
found
that
incredibly
interesting
I
wanted
to
just
make
a
quick
point
about
agriculture
and
and
the
networking
the
work
we
do
around
here.
H
Iot
has
a
huge
role
to
play
actually
in
the
efficiency
of
Agriculture
and
that
I've
seen
some
of
this
from
where
I
grew
up,
and
certainly
some
of
the
work
that
I
think
my
employer
has
done
in
the
past,
which
is
quite
fun
a
big,
a
much
broader
point
and
I'm
not
sure
if
this
is
actually
a
question
or
just
an
observation
but
I've.
Obviously,
in
recent
times,
we've
we've
seen
some
very
large
leaps
in
changes
around
energy
usage,
partly
because
you
know
something
we
couldn't
have
necessarily
predicted.
H
Someone
went
to
war
in
another
country
and
all
of
a
sudden
Energy
prices
have
shot
up
massively
across
the
world,
other
things
that
tend
to
happen.
Elon
Musk
tweets
about
things
and
suddenly
everyone
wants
to
buy
his
cars
or,
for
example,
everyone
wants
to
buy
Dogecoin
instead
of
Bitcoin.
Vice
versa,
either
way
it
goes
around.
H
The
concern
I
have
is
that,
of
course,
we
are
all
in.
You
know
we're
all
tasked
really
with
making
iterative
improvements
to
this,
but
I
really
don't
I'm
not
entirely
sure
how
we
will
be
able
to
compete
as
an
organization
with
the
the
actions
of
of
lunatics,
Waging,
War
and
celebrities.
Tweeting
I
I
feel
like
that.
Much
more
could
be
done
or
undone
in
those
respects
to
the
point
where
I'm
I'm
not
sure
how
much
the
ietf
could
contribute
in
this
place.
I
mean
all
of
the
work
that
we
could
do.
H
Multiple
years
could
be
unpicked
in
a
second.
So
there
are
certain
things
that
we
could
perhaps
in
in
very
broad
sways.
Look
at
enacting,
I
mean
I
think
we
really
probably
should
take
quite
an
honest
look
at
blockchains
and
the
amount
of
electricity
that
goes
into
running
them
and
keeping
them
running.
H
Perhaps
you
know
there
are
definitely
drafts
floating
around.
There's
lots
of
research
going
around
on
that
on
that
subject,
can
we
be
more
honest
with
ourselves
about
the
direction
we're
taking
and
and
the
much
bigger
Concepts
around
energy
usage
and
where
we're
being
wasteful
and
of
course,
a
lot
of
us
have
come
here
on
planes
as
well
to
this?
H
To
this
event,
do
we
have
to
be
really
really
honest
with
ourselves
about
whether
or
not
that's
appropriate
and
I'm
I
know
everyone's
desperately
happy
to
be
back
here
in
the
room
if
they're
able,
but
as
am
I,
but
you
know,
should
we
be
showing
ourselves
a
as
a
greater
example
as
it
were,
and
what
are
the
big
big
things
that
we
can
do
to
grab
attention
on
that
front?
I
think
that's!
That's
the
about
the
only
way
that
you
can
deal
with
Elon,
Musk
and
and
compete
with
that.
A
H
Anyway
again,
thank
you
very
much.
It
was
really
really
fascinating,
so
I
think.
D
Yeah,
your
point
is
well
taken.
I
agree
that
it
it
is
challenging
the
scale
of
the
problem
and
also
the
scale
of
the
voices
that
are
out
there
that
can
shape
events
are
far
beyond
what
ietf
can
do.
But
one
thing
that
also
is
true
is
that
I
often
tell
people
there
is
a
small
group
of
folks
that
you
know
the
ITF
Community
who
keeps
the
internet
running,
and
you
don't
know
about
it,
but
you
know
it:
wouldn't
you
wouldn't
be
able
to
access
the
internet?
D
It
didn't
happen
this
way,
and
so
in
some
ways
not
being
on
the
in
the
headlines,
sometimes
can
be
an
advantage,
but
you
can
still
ITF
actually
has
the
power
to
shape
things.
I
mean
the
example
I
was
giving
about.
You
know.
Standards
for
data,
centers
is
just
a
minor
one,
but
there's
also
the
sort
of
climate
resilient
networking
that
could
be
a
a
long-term
infrastructure
change
that
occurs,
and
then
it
has
Ripple
effects
throughout
other
infrastructures,
energy
infrastructure
and
and
so
on,
and
so
I
think.
A
Great
last.
A
At
one
of
your
sides,
it
made
me
think
that
there's
a
bunch
of
trade-offs
in
this
work
there's
a
lot
of
space
for
thinking
about
how
one
solution
may
have
a
knock-on
effects
in
other
areas
and
negotiating
that
is
not
trivial
and
that
that
happens
to
be
very
strongly
paralleled
in
the
human
rights
space
as
well.
A
Actually
a
lot
of
the
work
that,
as
human
rights
Advocates,
we
do
especially
in
sort
of
tangential
areas
like
you
know,
technology
is,
is
actually
having
a
conversation
about
trade-offs
and
where
you
know
you
prioritize
certain
rights
or
certain
principles
over
others
and
what
the
finer
edges
of
that
are.
So
that
could
also
potentially
be
an
Avenue
that
could
be
additive
to
the
larger
space,
where
a
lot
of
folks
have
talked
about
one
thing
or
another.
D
A
Great
so
hoping
we
have
future
work
here,
we
always
want
to
try
to
bring
in
speakers
who
give
us
all
inspiration
for
areas.
We
could
take
the
work
and
so
I
think
hrpc
could
be
a
really
good
place
to
write
and
and
publish
and
talk
about
some
of
this
in
an
ongoing
way.
So
we
hope
we
hope
that
you
stick
around
and
that
others
can
send
us
pointers
for
potentially
starting
documents
and
things.
A
Okay.
So
with
that
we're
now
moving
on
to
our
next
speaker
so
Alana,
are
you
online.
A
Great
welcome
you
should
be
able
to
load
your
own
slides
by
clicking
on
the
let's
see.
Are
you
already
doing
that
there
you
are
okay,
good
you've
got
it
that
works
all
right.
Welcome!
Take
it
away.
I
Beautiful,
thank
you
so
hi
everyone,
my
name,
is
Lana.
I
am
a
postdoc
at
Cornell,
Tech
I'm.
Also,
the
director
of
operations
at
somewhere
called
the
clinic
10
Tech
abuse
and
I'm
really
excited
to
be
talking
to
you
all
about
understanding
and
responding
to
technology
abuse
and
and
how
that
might
possibly
affect
what
you
all
do
at
the
ietf.
I
So
let
me
just
learn
how
to
use
this
slide
there
we
go
so
the
way
that
the
stock
is
kind
of
structured
is
that
I
was
first
going
to
go
over
some
background
information
about
technology
abuse
and
that
the
clinic
child,
Tech
abuse
and
myself,
and
what
we
do
and
then
talk
about
tech
abuse
and
practice
from
what
we
actually
see
and
then
I
was
hoping
to
end
with
some
like
open
issues.
I
Some
active
questions
that
I
run
across
in
my
day-to-day
and
and
just
what
some
things
that
we
can't
yet
respond
to,
but
that
we
would
like
to
respond
to
in
the
area
of
tech
abuse.
Look
like
so
with
that
I'll
start
with
just
introducing
myself
like
I,
said
I'm,
the
director
of
operations
at
the
clinic
10,
Tech
abuse,
I.
Think
some
of
the
most
the
most
interesting
thing
about
my
background
as
it
pertains
to
this
talk,
is
that
I
have
a
very
technical
background.
I
I
received
my
PhD
in
databases,
programming,
languages
and
systems
last
year,
which
is
very
different
from
the
work
that
I
do
now.
But
during
my
academic
background,
I
also
spent
time
working
as
a
Survivor
advocate.
So
I
was
an
advocate
at
the
Columbia
Rape
Crisis
Center
at
the
rape,
abuse
and
incest.
I
National
network
I
worked
in
consent,
education
and
I
think
that
both
of
those
experiences-
this
like
very
systems,
oriented
technical
academic
background
and
my
background,
also
as
a
Survivor
Advocate,
really
shaped
the
way
that
I
think
about
all
of
the
protocols
that
we
put
into
place
when
we
are
trying
to
help
people
with
technology
abuse
and
with
all
that
said,
I
think
like
a
good.
Next
question
is
what
is
technology
abuse?
I
As
the
many
ways
where
an
abuser
can
use
a
digital
technology
to
intimidate,
threaten
monitor,
impersonate,
harass
or
otherwise
harm
their
victims,
and
so
I'll
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
what
we
do
at
Zeta
in
a
moment,
but
just
to
take
an
example
from
one
of
the
clients
that
we
see
who
are
experiencing
technology
abuse
that
we've
interviewed
I
think
that
this
quote
really
wraps
up
how
Insidious
technology
abuse
can
be
in
certain
vulnerable
populations,
such
as
as
survivors
of
intimate
partner
violence.
I
So
the
Survivor
describes
their
abuser
tracking
everything
that
they're
doing
whatever
I
do.
He
sees
that
he's
harassing
me
until
now,
and
the
Survivor
had
an
order
of
protection,
but
the
harasser.
The
abuser
was
using
spoofing
apps
to
harass
the
client
from
different
numbers
and
because
the
way
that
our
legal
systems
work
don't
really
take
into
account
the
technological
abilities
that
abusers
have
basically
a
lot
of
forms
of
technology.
Abuse
are
invisibilized
by
courts.
I
So,
even
though
it
was
clearly
the
abuser
calling
from
these
spoofed
phone
numbers,
it
wasn't
the
phone
number
that
was
listed
under
the
order
of
protection,
and
so
the
police
would
not
respond
to
this.
Continuing
harassment
and
abuse.
So
I
think
that
this
example
really
highlights
how
Insidious
Tech
abuse
can
be
for
survivors.
I
And
when
we
talk
about
technology
abuse
and
the
security
threats
that
technology
abuse
plays
in
the
role
of
intimate
partner,
violence,
I
call
them
intimate
partner,
violence,
aware
threat
models
and
what
I
mean
by
that
is
that
in
computer
security,
we
have
threat
models
that
locate
the
attacker
as
being
this
person,
who
has
no
physical
proximity
or
little
physical
proximity
and
no
social
proximity
to
the
attacker.
I
He
was
using
passwords
that
was
a
family
member's
names
and
using
family
members.
Birthdays
as
a
pen
which
we
know
is
like
not
necessarily
the
greatest
security
practice,
but
it
does
mean
that
for
someone
who
is
an
intimate
partner
or
someone
who
might
have
information
about
this
person
at
a
personal
level
that
they
would
be
able
to
know,
and
guess
all
of
that
information
and
know
how
this
person
deploys
their
passwords
and
uses
them
and
another
issue
that
comes
up.
Is
this
idea
of
identity?
I
Verification
in
the
second
part
of
this
quote
where
the
Survivor
is
saying
that
they're
trying
to
reset
their
password,
but
because
the
abuser
had
control
over
the
phone
number
and
the
Survivor
no
longer
had
access
to
the
phone
number.
They
couldn't
use
the
recovery
mechanisms
that
were
in
place
so
since
they
don't
have
that
phone
number,
they
can't
reset
anything
and
I'm
going
to
take
a
second
here
just
to
talk
about
what
an
intimate
partner
is
while
we're
talking
about
intricate
partner
awareness
models.
I
I
think
that
this
language
tends
to
evoke
the
idea
of
a
romantic
partner,
which
is
absolutely
true,
and
many
of
the
survivors
that
we
see
are
are
being
harassed
or
stalked
or
abused
by
a
former
romantic
partner.
But
the
smart
model
is
General
enough
to
sort
of
Encompass
anyone
who
has
close
social
relationships
with
the
with
the
victim
or
the
Survivor.
I
So
you
can
think,
for
example,
children
on
family
members,
people
who
rely
on
caretakers,
so
that
would
be
people
with
disabilities,
elderly
people
and
even
friends
have
all
I
can
all
be
kind
of
captured
by
this
threat
model
of
an
intimate
partner.
I
So
we
have
a
tech
abuse,
Clinic
that
responds
to
this
and
so
to
kind
of
set
up
what
this.
I
What
we
do
in
our
Clinic
is
that
we
are
a
free
consultative
service
and
we
train
Volunteers
in
the
Dynamics
of
coercive
control
and
we
pair
them
with
survivors
who
are
experiencing
technology
abuse
and
we
have
these
sessions
or
consultations
with
them
one-on-one,
where
we
listen
to
their
story
and
we
listen
to
like
what's
going
on
with
their
technology
and
how
they're
being
harassed
or
otherwise
abused,
and
then
we
try
and
find
ways
that
we
can
maybe
structure
interventions
that
respond
to
their
specific
situation,
and
so
this
definition
is
borrowed
from
our
friends
and
close
collaborators
at
the
technology
enabled
course
of
control
clinic
in
Seattle,
Dana,
Cuomo
and
Natalie
Dolce
I
think
it
really
nicely
encapsulates
what
a
tech
abuse
clinic
is
and
Ceta
or
the
clinic
to
in
Tech
abuse
is
one
of
the
first
such
of
these
clinics.
I
If
not
the
first,
it's
a
technology
abuse
Clinic,
that's
run
out
of
Cornell
Tech.
We
also
act
as
a
research
and
education
and
a
policy
Hub
generally
focusing
on
this
intersection
of
intimate
partner,
violence
and
Technology.
I
So
the
way
that
sudo
works
is
that
we
actually
partner
with
the
New
York
City
mayor's
office
to
add
domestic
and
gender-based
violence
and
several
other
local
agencies
in
New,
York
City
that
are
already
working
with
survivors
of
intimate
partner,
violence
and
those
agencies
when
they
see
that
their
clients
are
are
having
or
experiencing
technology-related
abuse,
then
they
refer
them
to
us
and
then
that's
how
we
get
in
touch
with
them
and
start
meeting
with
them
and
talking
about
them
and
from
these
experiences
we've
been
able
to
gather
a
lot
of
data
and
conduct
research
based
on
the
experiences
gleaned
from
those
interactions
with
survivors.
I
I
I
I
So
this
was
started
in
2016
by
professors,
Nikki
doll
and
Tom
Briston
part.
We
serve
all
five
boroughs
of
New
York
City
and
only
New
York
City.
We
do
not
take
survival
referrals
from
survivors
who
are
not
attached
to
actually
one
of
our
partner
agencies,
but
over
that
time
we've
received
over
400
referrals
to
date
from
the
local
ipb
agencies.
I
I
If
they,
this
talk
in
any
way
inspires
you
to
want
to
come
join
us.
We
are
accepting
applications
for
new
volunteers,
so
feel
free
to
get
in
touch
with
me
about
that
as
well,
and
so
during
this
time
in
this
past
six
years
that
what
I
wanted
to
share
was
some
takeaways
from
what
we've
actually
seen
in
that
time.
In
with
the
survivors
that
were
spoken
to
so
Tech
abuse
and
practice.
I
I
wanted
to
start
with
this
taxonomy
of
attacks,
because
I
think
it's
useful
for
kind
of
giving
a
sense
of
all
the
different
ways
that
technology
can
be
used
to
harass
or
abuse
survivors
of
intimate
partner
violence,
and
so
this
is
based
off
of
the
2018
analysis
in
which
we
identified
four
types
of
attacks.
I've
since
updated
it
to
add
my
kind
of
fifths.
I
I
So
these
are
the
five
types
of
attacks
that
we
see
or
how
we
kind
of
categorize
them
in
this
taxonomy
account
and
device
compromise,
ownership-based
attacks,
exposure,
private
information,
harassment
and
Technology,
assisted
monitoring
and
I'm,
going
to
run
through
some
examples
of
what
those
look
like
in
practice.
So
for
account
and
device
compromise.
This
usually
means
monitoring
digital
communication,
like
being
logged
into
someone's
emails
and
reading
their
emails
or
text
messages.
I
It
can
also
mean
using
the
account
access
that
you
have
to
delete
someone's
accounts,
which
is
particularly
difficult
when
it's
an
account
that
someone
uses
for
their
business,
so
I've
seen
people's
like
the
pages
that
they
use
for,
like
a
business
that
they
run
being
taken
down
from
Instagram
and
deleted
permanently.
I
It's
also
really
common
for
people
to
use
this
access
to
delete
evidence
of
abuse
so,
for
example,
text
messages,
photos
that
documented
the
abuse
history
or
for
the
abuser
to
impersonate
the
Survivor
there's
a
lot
of
other
things
that
people
can
do
with
this.
That
kind
of
access-
but
that's
just
some
of
them
and
then
ownership-based
attacks-
are
distinct,
because
these
are
attacks
where
the
abusers,
the
person
who
owns
the
account
and
that
creates
unique
problems
for
the
survivors.
I
I
So
exposure
of
private
information
I
think
the
number
one
thing
that
comes
to
mind
with
that
is
non-consensual
intimate
images.
This
is
also
known
as
revenge
porn
or
sex
flirtation.
So
this
is
sharing
intimate
images.
This
can
be
both
things
that
are
overtly
sexual
in
nature,
but
it
can
also
be
content
context
dependent,
so
someone,
for
example,
practices
viewing
for
their
religion
to
share
photos
of
someone
who
is
unveiled
can
both
incite
harassment
from
their
own
Community
or
social
social
ostracization.
I
So
this
is
really
something
that's
a
very
broad
term,
which
is
why
we
use
this
phrase
of
intimate
images
instead
of
anything,
that's
more
overtly
related
to
sexualizing
someone
other
examples
of
exposing
private
information
are
coerced
spending
like
like
sharing
doxing
someone
basically
and
sending
their
credit
card
information
out
to
people
that
shouldn't
have
that
information
or
identity
theft,
or
otherwise,
just
using
blackmail
and
extortion
based
on
the
private
information
that
you
have
so
that
could
also
be
outing.
I
Someone
who's
part
of
the
lgbtq
plus
community
harassment,
again
like
we
saw
in
the
example
like
spoofing
phone
calls,
sending
mass
emails,
posting
summons
information
on
public
websites
that
people
harass
them.
We
have
had
clients
do
this
from
like
sharing
someone's
private
information
in
prison
and
having
the
people
who
are
in
the
prison
harass
the
the
Survivor
and
then
finally,
the
last
category
that
I
kind
of
added
to
talk
about
was
technology,
assisted
monitoring
and
I.
I
Pets,
children,
it's
also
iot,
is
not
really
captured
by
any
of
the
other
categories,
and
iot
is
something
where,
even
in
the
same
home,
if
someone
has
like
a
smart
bulb
that
automatically
turns
on
when
someone
is
in
a
certain
area
of
the
home
and
the
abuser
is
the
one
who
owns
that,
then
they
can
use
that
to
kind
of
monitor
where
the
Survivor
or
victim
is
within
their
own
space.
I
So
that's
kind
of
like
this
high
level
view
of
all
of
the
different
ways
that
we
have
seen.
Technology
being
used
to
harm
survivors
of
intimate
partner
violence,
but
I
just
wanted
to
note
that
in
practice,
this
taxonomy,
it's
useful
for
that
categorization
but
abusers
can
use
multiple
Avenues
of
attacks
to
achieve
the
same
results
right.
So
it's
not
like
they
just
pick
one
way
of
doing
this
and
then
stick
to
that.
So,
for
example,
to
find
a
victim's
location,
which
is
one
of
the
biggest
concerns
that
we
see.
I
You
can
use
an
app
like
find
my
phone
and
and
add
yourself
to
that
and
through
that
account
compromise,
get
their
location
or
you
can
get
proximal
information
from
logging
into
their
calendar
or
their
emails
where
they
would
email
people
about
where
they'll
be
it
can
be
through.
Ownership-Based
attacks
like
having
access
being
the
owner
for
phone
plan
can
give
you
a
lot
of
information
about
where
a
cell
phone
is
and
what
it's
doing,
and
you
can
also
use,
for
example,
personal
trackers.
I
I
And
I
also
just
wanted
to
touch
on
spyware,
because
I
think
this
is
something
that
comes
up
a
lot.
Ceta
originally
actually
began
as
a
spyware
field
study.
They
were
just
trying
to
I
joke,
sometimes
that
they
were
just
trying
to
conduct
this
failed
study
on
you
know
how
often
is
fiber
actually
being
used
in
practice,
and
then
they
accidentally
started
an
essential
service
which
was
Ceta
ironically.
Spyware
is
not
something
that
we
see
that
often
at
SATA.
I
This
could
just
be
an
like
an
artifact
of
the
fact
that
we
are
seeing
clients
who
have
been
referred
to
us
through
the
mayor's
office,
Family
Justice
centers,
and
so
that
they
tend
to
have
already
been
separated
from
from
the
abuser
if
they
were
in
a
romantic
or
domestic
relationship,
and
so
again
this
might
be
a
limitation
of
our
referrals,
but
we
find
that
dual
used.
Apps
are
more
common
and
what
I
mean
by
a
dual
youth
app.
I
Is
that
it's
that
that's
an
app
that
has
a
legitimate
purpose
that
Survivor
might
have
installed
themselves
and
wanted
to
use
like
find
my
phone,
but
it's
being
repurposed
by
the
abuser
without
the
survivor's
consent
or
knowledge
to
gather
information
about
them
or
otherwise
harm
them,
and
as
just
a
more
General
point
from
that,
Tech
abuse
here
is
usually
not
technically
sophisticated.
We
are
not
often
seeing
people
whose
phones
have
been
rooted.
We
are
not
seeing
like
some
cloning,
we're
not
seeing
Pegasus
deadlifted
on
people's
phones.
I
Although
people
are
often
concerned
about
those
things
when
they
hear
them,
it's
usually
just
these
very
kind
of
pedestrian
ways
that
people
are
are
using
to
harm
people,
but
sometimes
with
the
devastating
effect.
So.
I
I
also
wanted
to
briefly
talk
about
how
we
respond
to
technology
abuse,
so
I
think
one
question
that
might
come
up
is
like:
how
is
this
any
different
from
like
the
Genius
bar
or
is
you
know
some
kind
of
customer
support
who
responds
to
this
like?
Why
do
we
need
a
clinic?
That's
specifically
talking
about
tech,
abusive
Tech
experts,
and
it's
that
our
our
intervention
protocols
need
to
be
sensitive
to
the
context
that
our
the
survivors
and
clients
that
we
see
are
in
right.
I
So
for
one
thing,
if
we
are
dealing
with
account
compromise,
one
of
the
first
step
that
we
would
want
to
take
is
to
identify
who
has
access
to
the
account
before
we
do
anything
else
right.
So
we
don't
just
want
to
jump
in
and
change
a
password
or
say
get
a
new
phone.
I
What
is
visible
to
the
person
that
you
are
concerned
about
because
there's
a
big
possibility
of
abuse
escalation,
and
we
actually
have
seen
this
quite
often
where,
if
someone
had
access
to
someone's,
iCloud
or
someone's
Gmail,
and
then
we
take
away
that
access,
the
abuser
can
escalate
their
their
abuse,
so
they
might
show
up
at
the
victim's
house
or
they
might
start
calling
them
or
start
calling
their
family
members
or
it
might
actually
lead
to
an
instance
of
physical
violence.
I
So
we
need
to
notify
the
Survivor
like
hey
the
person
who
you
are
concerned
about
might
be
able
to
see
that
you
are
taking
some
actions
to
take
back
control
of
your
technology
and
do
you
have
a
plan
to
be
safe?
Like
do
you
have
a
safety
plan
with
your
social
worker
or
with
your
caseworker?
That
can
help
make
sure
that
you
aren't
coming
into
further
harm
I.
I
Think
another
thing
that's
important
is
to
be
aware
of,
like
these,
this
kind
of
cascade
or
like
kind
of
this
waterfall
effect
where
every
user
might
be
logged
into
a
recovery
account
or
have
two
Factor
authentication
set
up
on
the
account,
but
not
necessarily
be
logged
in.
I
What
steps
that
they
can
take
and
letting
them
choose
how
they
want
to
respond
to
any
signs
of
abuse
or
compromise
that
they
see,
and
sometimes
they
might
choose
a
response
that
doesn't
make
sense
to
us
or
that
we
don't
think,
is
the
best
option.
And
but
we
want
to
respect
that
and
make
them
feel
comfortable.
I
Doing
what
they
feel
is
right
for
their
situation,
and
we
also
don't
want
to
just
say
like
we'll:
just
don't
use
technology,
because
it's
such
a
critical
part
of
our
everyday
life
that
we
want
them
to
feel
empowered
to
use
that
normally
the
way
that
other
people
do
to
the
best
of
their
ability,
while
still
remaining
safe.
I
So
that's
kind
of
an
overview
of
just
how
what
we
do
in
practice,
what
kinds
of
Technology
we
used
to
be
see
and
how
we
respond
to
it,
based
off
of
what
the
clients
that
we've
seen
and
the
my
time
and
actually
responding
to
these
issues,
I've
run
into
some
open
issues
where
we
see
these
problems
repeatedly,
but
we
don't
have
a
solution
for
them.
So
it's
a
lot
of
times
where
we're
just
kind
of
you
know
saying:
there's
nothing
that
we
can
do.
I
So
I
would
say
that
the
first
issue
is
what
would
an
ipv
aware
protocol
look
like
for
devices
that
collect
and
transmit
sensitive
or
personal
data,
and
how
do
we
have
a
design
process
that
includes
marginalized
and
vulnerable
populations
from
the
start
and
to
kind
of
make
this
a
little
bit
more
concrete,
I.
I
Think
a
good
case
study
here
is
air
tags,
so
air
tags
were
released,
and
these
are
some
example
headlines
of
how
they
were
almost
immediately
used
to
for
stalking
and
for
criminal
usage,
a
woman
who
found
that
an
airtag
had
been
attached
to
the
underside
of
her
wheel
well,
at
a
bar
from
someone
that
she
didn't
know,
two
people
from
the
TV
show
The
Bachelor,
who
were
one
of
them,
ended
up
attacking
attaching
an
air
tag
to
one
of
the
contestants
cars
after
the
show
ended
and
just
pointing
out
that
there
have
been
like
at
least
50
cases
that
we
know
of
in
eight
months.
I
In
this
short
period
that
was
reported
to
the
news
of
non-consensual
talking
and
personal
trackers
were
originally
designed
with
the
only
threat
models
being
you
know,
I'm
the
person
who
owns
this
item
and
I've
lost
it
like
the
threat
model
is
me
losing
it.
The
other
threat
model
was
like
the
strangers
stole
something
from
me
and
I
need
to
know
where
it
is
so.
It
was
never
really
looking
at
it
from
this
perspective
of
how
they
could
be
abused
or
how
they
could
be
used
to
to
Target.
You.
G
I
I
So
can
we
have
develop
a
standard
where,
whenever
you
have
these
kinds
of
trackers
that
are
being
released,
that
across
all
platforms
and
across
all
electronic
devices,
that
you
would
receive
that
type
of
notification?
And
what
would
that
look
like?
And
what
would
we
need
to
have
that
I?
Think
another
thing
to
think
about
is:
can
there
be
like
a
neutral
third
party
who
holds
suspicious
tracker
data?
I
So
these
are
just
some
possibilities
and
I
think
it's
a
good
example
of
like
when
we
release
new
technology
that
is
building
a
new
network.
How
do
we
take
into
account
these
processes?
How
do
we
design
them
with
a
process
that
centers
the
vulnerable
and
marginalized
population
populations
from
the
start
and
sort
of
finding
it
out
after
the
fact.
I
A
second
question
that
I've
touched
on
a
little
bit
is:
how
do
we?
How
do
we
approach
ID
verification
in
an
ipv
context,
and
that's
specifically,
where
ipv
survivors
may
never
have
had
control
of
their
own
devices
or
may
have
lost
control
of
their
devices
and
not
been
able
to
recover
their
accounts
so
the
way
identity
verification
works?
Is
it
generally
assumes
that
someone
who
would
be
trying
to
recover
the
account
wouldn't
have
any
personal
information
about
the
part
about
the
actual
owner?
I
So
three
times
in
the
past
month
alone,
how
we
had
clients
present
with
the
same
scenario
where
they
owned
an
Android
phone
and
the
phone
plan
was
owned
by
the
abuser,
so
they
don't
have
access
to
the
call
logs
or
the
text
message
history.
Their
data
was
backed
up
to
a
Google
drive
because
it
was
an
Android
phone
and
the
abuser,
just
locked
them
out
of
the
Google
account
deleted
all
of
the
evidence
and
then
factory
reset
the
phone
remotely.
I
So
all
of
a
sudden,
the
clients
just
had
zero
access
to
any
of
the
information
that
had
ever
been
used
on
that
phone
right,
and
so
you
know,
we've
seen
clients
who
have
been
in
a
relationship
with
someone
for
10
years
for
35
years,
and
they
don't
have
a
single
trace
of
digital
evidence
that
they
ever
contacted
or
had
any
relationship
with
the
person
who
was
abusing
them
and
because
they
don't
have
that
information,
they
don't
have
any
evidence
that
can
get
them
in
order
for
order
protection.
I
Saying
do
not
contact
me
through
electronic
means,
which
is
just
absolutely
wild.
So
you
know
how
do
we
do
identity,
verification
and
account
recovery?
And
do
we
like?
Is
it?
Is
it
ethical,
in
some
ways,
for
data
to
be
backed
up
to
a
Google
Drive
if
there
is
no
account
recovery
process
for
Google
Drive
accounts,
which
is
currently
the
situation.
I
And
then,
finally,
this
is
the
last
one,
which
is
how
do
applications
communicate
across
varying
levels
of
technology
and
data
literacy.
So
a
lot
of
our
clients
are
not
really
good
with
technology
is
how
they'll
describe
themselves.
I
I
So
some
case
studies
here
there's
like
the
safety
checks
that
was
just
released
by
Apple
in
their
most
recent
in
their
most
recent
announcement
about
updates
to
iOS,
where
Google
also
has
the
notifications,
like
you,
should
turn
on
two-factor,
authentication
and
Facebook?
I
Has
some
safety
check
features
as
well
and
what
they
do
is
they
walk
users
through
their
delicate
privacy
settings,
and
this
really
user-friendly
Manner
and
that's
been
really
helpful
for
clients
to
be
able
to
take
control
of
their
own
data
and
be
aware
of,
what's
being
shared
right
like
to
have
some
kind
of
dashboard
of
how
their
data
is
actively
being
shared?
On
that
platform,
they
could
be
better
by
providing
abuse
escalation.
I
I
So
once
someone
has
been
booted
off
an
account,
you
can't
ever
prove
that
they
used
to
have
access
and
both
Facebook,
Instagram
and
Tinder
all
have
these
like
Json
file,
dubs,
where
you
request
your
own
data,
and
then
we
have
to
kind
of
process
that
data
for
our
clients,
because
they're
trying
to
find
out
like
what
date
someone
followed
them
on
Instagram
to
prove
that
someone
violated
an
order
of
protection,
so
ways
that
that
data
can
be
released
and
something
that's
like
more
technically
more
friendly
to
those
with
less
technical
literacy.
I
So
I'll
leave
that
with
those
three
on
those
three
questions,
because
I'm
not
sure
how
much
time
is
left
and
I
wanted
to
leave
some
time
for
questions.
We
do
have
other
efforts
at
Ceta
that
I
didn't
talk
about
so
far,
which
includes
like
some
laws
that
were
advocated
for
that
protected
survivors
at
the
state
and
federal
level.
I
We
do
advocate
for
funding
and
guidance
for
other
Tech
clinics,
and
we
do
have
obviously
research
that
we
publish
so
there
is
like
a
whole
Corpus
of
research,
that's
publicly
available
and
feel
free
to
ask
me
about
any
of
those
if
you're,
curious
and
I'll
leave
these
contacts
and
resources
that
while
people
are
asking
anything
they
have,
this
is
my
email.
I
A
H
Hi
Lana
that
was
really
really
wonderful.
Thank
you.
Very
much
I
had
a
a
personal
experience
of
something
very
similar
along
these
lines.
Actually
in
the
past,
and
it
was,
it
was
related
to
an
iCloud
account
and
it
wasn't
abuse
against
myself
per
se.
H
But
I
was
a
sort
of
a
third
party
in
this
situation
and
it
was,
it
was
quite
frustrating
to
find
that
there
wasn't
I,
don't
think
we
have
an
open
equivalent
like
this
in
the
United
Kingdom
I
think
that
there
is
an
equivalent,
certainly
with
the
police
forces,
but
it
isn't
very
visible
if
that
makes
sense.
So
there's
there
doesn't
appear
to
be
something
similarly,
as
well.
H
My
employer
BT
we're
currently
having
an
interesting
conversation
at
the
moment
around
the
rights
of
miners,
those
under
18
children
and
I
think
this
is
something
I'm
going
to
want
to
share
with
them,
because
I
think
it's
very,
very
important
and
relevant
question
wise
I
was
hoping
I,
don't
know,
I
think
I
think
I
know
the
answer
to
this,
but
have
you
been
able
to
have
any
engagement
with
some
of
the
large
device
manufacturers
and
service
manufacturers?
H
But
people
like
the
Facebooks,
the
apples,
the
Googles,
have
you
been
able
to
have
any
engagement
with
them
for
the
purpose
of
helping
inform
the
design
of
their
products
in
the
future?
Is
there
a
is
there
a
way
in
which
you
can?
Maybe
they
won't
listen?
Maybe
they
won't
ask,
but
you
know,
is
there
a
way
that
you
can
get
in
touch
with
them
start.
You
know,
offer
some
some
help
in
terms
of
research
that
you've
you've
conducted
in
cases
that
you've
worked
on.
H
H
If
we
are
in
that
situation,
where
they
could
benefit
from
the
information
that
you've
and
perhaps
Anonymous
information
from
from
the
cases
that
you've
worked
on,
it
may
help
actually
inform
some
of
the
designs
that
they
make.
But
you
know
they
should
be
reaching
out
to
folks,
like
you
I
think,
but
have
have
you
had
any
of
that
at
all,
or
is
it
something
that
we
can
help
with.
I
I
So
I
did
recently
speak
like
so
meta
does
a
good
job
of
like
soliciting
input
from
both
aceta,
also
the
national
network
to
end
domestic
violence
in
the
UK
there's
Refuge,
which
offers
a
lot
of
support
in
this
area,
and
they
do
have
a
technology
safety
team,
although
it's
quite
small
I,
think
it's
like
three
people
and
I
know
them
all,
and
so
they
do
solicit
feedback
about
this,
and
you
know
there
have
been
I'm,
not
sure
what
the
disclosure
agreements
for
some
of
them
are.
I
So
I
won't
list
either
ones,
but
there
have
been
other
companies
that
have
solicited
input
from
us
when
designing
new
features,
particularly
around
language
and
around
the
kind
of
again
that
protocol
of
documenting
evidence.
First
and
then
you
know
a
warning
of
escalation,
kind
of
thing,
so
yeah
I
think
there's
some
positive
news.
I
Sometimes
it
kind
of
seems
like
people
are
aware
or
like
that
some
people
at
those
places
are
aware,
but
they
just
are
kind
of
choosing
to
maybe
there's
not
as
much
pressure
around
doing
it.
The
same
way
that
pressure
was
created
around
air
tags
right,
so
I
think
that
that's
part
of
that
thing
of
trust
trying
to
design
these
processes
that
you
know
include
stakeholders
from
various
communities
from
the
start
right,
but
yeah
I.
Think
it's
a
really
great
point
and
I'm
sorry
to
hear
about
your
experience.
I
H
I
H
I
look
forward
to
it
not
being
thank
you
for
all
of
your
work
in
this
and
I,
like
the
suggestion
that
you
had
on
the
protocol
for
air
tags
to
be
sharing
that
information
with
other
phones,
I,
think
that
was
actually
extremely
valid
and
and
I
hope
someone
is
able
to
work
on
it.
I
wish
I
were
thank
you
for
your
help.
A
Put
myself
in
the
queue
to
again
thank
you
for
a
great
talk.
I
was
really
looking
forward
to
this
conversation
and
entering
the
group,
because
for
a
long
time,
Sophia
and
I
have
been
planning
to
write
some
of
this
down
because
it
is
mostly
centered
on
what
many
have
already
raised,
which
is
the
threat
model
is
incomplete
and
it
isn't
I
mean
yes,
I
think
this
is
a
very
strongest
use
case.
It's
maybe
the
simplest
most
straightforward
expression
of
it,
but
it
also
happens
kind
of
as
a
local.
The
local
threat
can
be
others.
A
It
could
be
also
your
boss.
Potentially,
if
you
know
it's
really
like
do
you
does
somebody
have
access
to
your
device?
Does
somebody
have
access
to
your
Wi-Fi
network?
Does
somebody
have
a
social
relationship
to
you?
All?
Those
things
you
very
clearly
laid
out
in
the
beginning
is
what
comprises
that
fret
model?
It
can
also
be
parents
and
children
right.
There's,
there's.
I
A
You
know
view
that
teenagers
should,
you
know,
be
protected
in
that
way
from
from
things
like
that,
so
that's
really
great
and
having
I
think
the
things
you
you've
written
I'm.
Sure
in
terms
of
your
guidance
that
you
have
produced
as
your
clinic
could
be
a
really
useful
starting
point
for
us
to
also
unpack.
We.
A
It's
really
interesting
that
you
mentioned
you
started
out
to
study
spyware
because
that's
also
where
I
think
Sophia
and
I
started
when
we
were
thinking
about
this
like
what,
if
we
looked
at
the
spyware
and
tried
to
figure
out
how
it
works
and
then
wrote
that
down,
and
then
you
noted
like
actually
that's
not
even
the
biggest
part
of
the
problem,
so
that's
really
useful
that
I
didn't
I
didn't
realize
and
another
one
that
I
wanted
to
highlight.
That
I
think
also
is
incomplete
or
we
don't
care
about
enough.
A
Is
data
loss
as
an
attack,
so
deleting
things
I
mean
we
know
like
ransomware,
and
things
like
that
is,
is
an
attack
but
I
think
we
don't
often
have
the
right
sort
of
imagination
around
how
that
can
happen
quite
quite
more
often
than
it
than
it
than
we
document
or
think
about,
and
then
I
think.
Another
thing
that
really
liked
in
terms
of
solution
space
that
you
mentioned
was
around.
Maybe
because
this
is
an
effort.
An
empowering
users.
A
A
So
one
really
easy
example
that
is
now
very
pervasive
is
like
tells
you
the
last
time
anyone
logged
into
your
account
and
from
what
device
like
that
didn't
always
used
to
be
so
ubiquitous,
but
it
is
now
I
think
a
lot
more
of
those
kinds
of
things
where
you
can
look
from
your
device
or
from
your
account
to
see
certain
kinds
of
activity
that
would
be
enabled
for
every
kind
of
account.
A
Those
are
like
examples
of
like
proactive.
You
know,
measures
that
could
really
help.
So
thanks
so
much
for
your
work
on
this
Alana
I,
wonder
if
you
I,
don't
know
if
you
were
here
earlier
for
some
of
the
discussion
we
had
around
what
hrpc
does,
but
if
at
all,
you
had
feedback
on
whether
or
not
you
think
some
of
this,
like
that,
you
see
the
technical
community
that
we
have
here
been
useful
in
furthering
your
work.
I
wonder
if
you
have
thoughts
on
that.
I
Thank
you,
Mallory
yeah
and
I
just
wanted
to
kind
of
like
just
a
little
bit
of
responding
to
some
of
the
things
that
you
mentioned.
One
of
them
about
spyware,
showing
up
I
like
I,
do
want
to
repeat
again,
like
you
know,
we
have
research
talking
about
like
forums
of
abusers
and
how
they
go
and
seek
out
spyware
and
how
they
like
kind
of
use
them.
So
those
things
are
being
used.
I
I
will
say
that,
like
it's,
probably
more
common,
if
people
are
if
our
clients
were
predominantly
in
shelters
which
they're
not,
they
usually
have
already
separated
so
like
there's
a
higher
fiber
risk,
when
someone
has
physical
abscess
to
your
device,
because
typically
they
do
need
that
access
in
order
to
install
the
spyware
and
so
for
a
lot
of
our
clients.
That's
not
necessarily
they
might
have
changed
out
their
device
or
something,
but
they
are
still
logged
into
the
same
account.
I
So
I
don't
necessarily
want
to
downplay
it
in
that
way,
but
just
say
like
it's,
not
something
that
we
see
because
of
this
group
here,
but
yeah
I.
Think
those
those
login
messages
are
really
really
useful
and
I.
Think,
just
generally
letting
people
know
like
for
any
data
that
is
sensitive,
that's
being
transmitted
over
the
internet
to
let
people
know
like
information
about
who
has
logged
into
it,
who
has
Xena
and
who
has
had
access
to.
I
It
is
a
transparency
that
we
should
just
kind
of
set
as
a
standard
on
the
internet.
I,
unfortunately,
was
not
here
for
the
earlier
part
about
what
hrpc
does,
because
I
had
a
meeting
that
I
couldn't
get
out
of,
but
I
would
love
to
hear
other
people's
suggestions
based
on
like
what
I've
said
and
what
you
know
that
that
you
all
do
that,
you
think,
would
be
relevant.
A
E
So
great
presentation,
Lana
I,
also
am
involved
in
advocacy,
particularly
with
respect
to
digital
identity
as
a
dual
use
technology
and
my
question
to
you
is
specific
to
how
do
you
see
the
role
of
Biometrics
in
the
digital
identity
protocols
and
related
protocols
related
to
digital
identity?
Because
is
it
an
opportunity
to
improve
the
you
know
to
to
shift
the
balance
of
the
Dual
use
Technologies
in
favor
of
the
good,
or
is
it
a
risk
in
your
opinion,
based
on
your
experience?
Thank
you.
I
Yeah,
that
is
a
great
question.
I
was
wondering
if
someone
would
ask
about
Biometrics
and
I'm
glad
that
you
did
so.
It
is
something
that
we
have
seen:
Biometrics,
being
abused
and
the
clinic
and
I
think
the
really
important
thing
with
Biometrics
and
with
any
other
tool,
that's
being
used
for
identity.
I
I
So
I
think
that
we
want
to
still
see
those
limitations
of
it
before
viewing
it
as
like
an
end-all
be-all
like
if
you,
if
you
had
done
this,
then
this
must
have
been
like
proof
that
you
consented
to
this
and
to
be
able
to
have
a
little
bit
of
flexibility
in
understanding
how
coercion
can
play
a
role
in
being
in
in
basically
forcing
people
to
use
their
Biometrics
to
verify
things
that
they
didn't
want
to.
I
So
again,
I
think
it's
one
of
those
neutral
tools
where
we
just
need
to
think
about
it
from
these
multiple
different
perspectives
of
different
threat
models
and
how
they
could
be
abused
and
how
they
could
be
used
for
security
as
well
right,
because
we
see
this
a
lot
with,
like
even
two-factor
authentication,
where,
when
you're
trying
to
recover
account,
people
will
say
well,
you
you
know,
like
your
two-factor
authentication
is
set
to
this
phone.
I
So
you
know
you
don't
have
access
to
this
phone,
so
it
must
not
be
you
right
like
that,
is
as
good
as
it
gets
so
and
then
in
reality,
it
was
like
the
phone
number
is
attached
to
a
contract.
That
was
owed
by
the
abuser
and
you
can't
remove
that
phone
from
the
contract
because
of
the
way
that
the
laws
work
so
does
that
kind
of
answer?
Does
that
make
sense.
J
Hello,
I'm
Siobhan
I
work
with
Sophia
at
Brave
browser
thanks
for
your
talk.
I
came
in
a
little
bit.
Late,
apologies.
It
was
a
conflicting
session,
so
maybe
this
was
already
covered,
but
I
just
wanted
to
say
that,
typically
in
browsers
and
user
agents,
we
don't
consider
the
browser
as
like
part
of
the
like
like.
J
If
someone
has
access
to
your
to
your
browser,
then
we
think
that
oh
it's
game
over,
but
it
seems
like
there's
a
real,
like
you
know
perspective
that
we
are
missing
where
we
could
be
doing
stuff
to
to
make
sure
that.
So
you
know
we
don't
just
like
keep
this
out
of
our
threat
model,
so
something
that
I
guess
Sophia
and
I
were
talking
about
was
injecting
random
history
over
the
last.
J
You
know
last
two
hours
so
that
an
attacker
who
has
access
to
the
machine
doesn't
see
that
someone
visit
someone
went
to
a
you
know
like
a
helpline
website
or
something
like
that.
So
and
this
you
know
this
would
not
be
too
hard
to
come
up
with,
like
some
fuzzing
around
this
or
some
kind
of
protection.
So
I
think
if
it'd
be
great.
If
you
can
come
give
a
talk
at
Ray
research
or
if
you
have
any
suggestions
around
some
technical
measures
that
could
be
done.
J
That
would
be
helpful
at
the
browser
level
to
help
protect
victims.
I
think
that'll
be
really
useful.
Thanks.
Oh.
I
Absolutely
yeah,
thank
you
so
much
for
your
question
and
for
bringing
that
up,
because
I
think
that
there
are
definitely
a
couple
things
that
browsers
can
do.
One
of
them,
like
you
said
I,
don't
know
if
you
had
heard
about
this,
but
Google
recently
announced
that
they
would
no
longer
show
in
location,
history
visits
to
abortion
clinics
due
to
the
overturn
of
Roe,
v,
Wade
and
I.
I
Think
that
there's
a
similar
thing
that
can
happen
with
browsers
to
just
like
block
out
like
submit
your
history
going
to
you
know
the
websites
that
are
for
that
are
like
owned
by
non-profits
and
agencies
that
are
targeted
towards
ipv.
I
I
And
feel
free
to
reach
out
to
me
about
the
the
brave
part
of
it.
I
know
that
we
have
some
great
volunteers
who
have
worked
at
Brave,
so
always
happy
to
see
that
representation.
B
Okay,
I'll
just
go
yes,
so
thank
you
very
much.
Lana
for
this
I
was
wanting
to
retreat
what
the
Mallory
was
saying,
but
definitely
we
need
then,
a
draft
to
actually
address
this
as
a
threat
model
that
is
very
real
and
maybe
one
of
the
most
powerful
attackers
that
the
internet
or
networks
can
never
see
this
kind
of
attacker
and
unfortunately,
and
sadly,
it
is
not
even
considered
most
of
the
times
when
you're
actually
designing
protocol
devices
and
also
want
to
reiterate
that
she
won
of
the
invitation.
B
But
we
can
follow
that
offline,
but
one
of
the
things
that
I
do
have
been
thinking
about-
and
maybe
this
maybe
somehow
we
could
share
this
visibility-
is
that
recently
there
has
been
a
lot
of
thoughts
from
different
governments
or
law
enforcement
agencies
to
actually
break
end-to-end
encryption
systems
because
they
lack
data
to
properly
protect.
Sometimes
they
target
children
or
also
women.
I
Yeah
I
mean
just
to
kind
of
clarify
you're
talking
about
the
idea
that,
like
law
enforcement
often
already
has
this
information
and
they're
just
choosing
they're,
just
ignoring
it
yeah.
We
see
a
lot
of
that
invisibilization
of
of
Technology
as
proof
and
I
think
that
it
really
depends
on
the
area
that
you're
in,
but
I
think
that
one
thing
that
was
thought
about
a
lot
is
how
we
can
serve
as
technical
experts
as
expert
Witnesses
for
people
to
force
them
to
take
it
seriously
so
that
there
is
somewhere.
I
That's
speaking
with
authority,
because
you
know
like
like
was
said
in
the
last
talk.
People
do
listen
to
us
more
than
they
listen
to
like
a
lot
of
social
workers
or
a
lot
of
other
agencies
to
say,
like
you
know,
based
off
of
what
we've
seen
like,
we
can
say
with
you
know
some
Authority
with
the
authority
that
we
have
that
this
has
happened
right
and
to
at
least
have
that,
like
a
testimonial
that
is
coming
from
our
expert
backgrounds
and
sharing
that
and
conferring
that
list
survivors
to
help
them
gain
some
legitimacy.
I
The
ones
that
are
willing
to
help
I
mean
we've
seen
the
New
York
City
Police
Department
have
a
DV
task
force
that
very
accurately
was
telling
our
clients
how
to
screen
for
AV
devices
that
might
have
been
left
in
their
homes
and
letting
them
know
like
any
AV
device
is
going
to
be
transmitting
things
over
the
Internet
or
through
Bluetooth.
So
you
want
to
check
your
Bluetooth
and
you
want
to
change
your
internet
and
knock
anything
off
of
the
internet.
That
might
have
been
transmitting
data
about
you,
so
yeah
I,
but
I
I.
I
A
Fantastic
thanks
again
really
excellent
work.
We
hope
to
see
you
and
your
colleagues
back
at
some
point
be
good
to
start
some.
Some
research
and
documentation
with
you
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
interest
in
this
updating
fret
models,
tax,
taxonomy
on
threats
and
that
sort
of
thing
would
be
really
great
to
have.
You
contribute
thanks,
Alana.
A
Thank
you
so
much.
Okay,
so
I'm
gonna
go
back
to
my
slides
because
now
we're
going
to
shift
into
talking
about
some
of
the
group
documents.
A
C
That's
the
slide,
as
an
author
of
draft
guidelines
I'd
be
interested
to
hear
from
the
irtf
chair
where
the
review
is
on
that
and
where
the,
where
the
progress
is,
what
we
can
do,
how
we
can
help
and
because
I
think
it
has
been
like
this
since
last
meeting.
K
Yeah
I
mean
stressed:
what's
changed
significantly
recently,
so
I
I
mean
that
the
issue
I
think
I've
had
sort
of
two
two
sets
of
comments.
I
think
I've
raised
in
in
the
past
about
this
draft
and
one
is
that
it.
It.
J
K
It
talks
about
human
rights
based
on
this
un
declaration
and
doesn't
doesn't
seem
to
relate
it
concretely
to
you
know
how
that's
been
reflected
in
particular,
sort
of
national
guidance
and
so
on,
and
as
a
result,
it
seemed
seemed
to
me
when
I
was
reading
it
to
be
very,
the
discussion
was
very
abstract
and
similarly
getting
into
the
the
technical
recommendations.
K
The
the
sort
of
quite
abstract
set
of
Human
Rights
it
mentions
then
leads
to
some
quite
abstract
discussion
about
technical
recommendations
and
that
that
doesn't
seem
to
be
a
lot
of
nuance
in
those
recommendations.
As
a
result
and
I
mean
I
think
this
is
an
issue
I've
raised
a
couple
of
times
before
it
seems
like
it
would
benefit
from
being.
You
know,
focusing
the
discussion
a
little
more
concretely
on.
C
Thanks
so
much
Colin,
we've
heard
that
from
you
in
the
last
session
and
we
created
a
new
version
and
a
response
to
that.
Since
then,.
K
I
think
there
was
I
mean
we
discussed
this
at
the
last
meeting
and
I
think
that
you,
you
suggested
that
you
don't
believe.
That's
in
scope,
I'm,
not
sure
I
agree.
So.
C
Okay,
then,
this
is
an
excellent
moment
to
discuss,
because
the
examples
have
been
extensively
done
in
RFC
8280
and
if
we're
gonna,
discuss
particular
examples
which
we've
done
in
the
example
sections,
but
go
there
in
different
jurisdictions.
Then
we
get
into
the
implementation
area
of
human
rights
in
local
jurisdictions,
and
this
is
about
the
implementation
of
Human
Rights,
not
about
the
implementation
of
local
laws
in
local
implementations.
Right.
G
A
Of
this
discussion
happened
on
the
list
and
I
think
the
idea
was
actually
that
that
is
really
useful,
that
having
something
that
maps
onto
local
laws
would
be
something
that
protocol
developers
strongly
want,
but
unfortunately
that's
a
very
different
document
and
probably
wouldn't
be
as
useful
as
a
sort
of
compendium
of
all
of
the
countries
that
have
laws
that
relate
to
this.
But
rather
would
be
a
document
that
explained.
A
Maybe
an
approach
to
do
so
so
again,
like
taking
a
sort
of
higher
level
view
that
yes
definitely
checking
with
local
laws
and
trying
to
swear
policy
with
you
know
technical
design,
but
also
you
know
technical
policy
right
like
there
would
be
guidance
around
how
what's
the
best
practice
to
do
that
and
I
think
there's
actually
probably
a
fair
amount
of
writing
that
exists
on
that
already
would
be
kind
of
I.
A
Think
the
the
task
of
this
new
document
would
be
to
you
know,
distill
what
that
literature
says
and
present
it.
Just
in
the
case
of
you
know,
Internet
Protocol,
design
and
deployment,
but
that
this
that
better,
that
that
work
actually
would
be
non-trivial
and
would
probably
lead
to
and
best
be
described
in
its
on
it.
In
a
standalone
document.
A
That's
separate
from
the
the
guidelines
document
around
the
international
human
rights
framework
and
yes,
as
Neil's
noted
in
the
chat
Sandra,
was
interested
in
that
work,
but
I
think
ultimately
agreed
like
it
shouldn't
necessarily
be
in
this
document,
because
it
would
kind
of
not
well
Express
that.
K
I
I
think
this
the
sort
of
two
aspects
to
my
concern
about
this
stuff.
One
is
the
sort
of
technical
recommendations
and
one
is
the
positioning
and
the
technical
recommendations
are
probably
the
the
easier
one
to
address
in
in
that
they
seem
in
a
lot
of
cases
to
to
lack
nuance
and
like
depth
and
I.
Don't
think,
there's
there's
so
much
anything
wrong
with
them.
It's
just
that
they
could
off.
K
They
could
often
say
more
and
I
think
a
lot
of
the
reasons
why
it's
hard
to
say
more
in
the
context
of
the
documents
is
that
it?
It
doesn't
really
give
specific
examples
of
what
is
meant
by
the
rights
and
therefore
it's
it's
hard
to
relate
that
to
a
specific
example
which
of
what
you
know
how
that
particular
technical
issue
affects
things.
So
it's
difficult
to
make
it
concrete
for
for
an
engine
in
a
way
that
an
engineer
writing
a
spec
would
go.
C
K
C
But
we've
we've
been
working
on,
we've
been
working
to
address
exactly
that,
and
it
it's
interesting
to
see
that
those
changes
are
not
recognized
as
a
significant
change
in
trying
to
get
there.
Also,
the
authors
come
from
different
expertises
and
different
jurisdictions
with
a
long-term
experiences
implementing
human
rights
in
different
environments,
and
also
doing
human
rights
refutes
of
drafts
and
working
with
people
who
have
doing
human
rights.
Free
reviews
on
draft
themselves
here
in
the
ITF
and
every
Point
that's
brought
up
has
a
particular
example
with
it,
so
that
there
are
no
examples.
C
I
find
also
a
bit
hard
to
understand,
but
I'm
happy
to
have.
K
K
C
K
A
I
would
also
want
to
join
that
call
because
and
sorry
I'm
skipping
the
queue
Adrian,
but
the
I
I
also
am
surprised
and
I
have
been
trying
to
follow
as
closely
as
I
can
also
in
the
irsg,
where
this
document
had
been
in
your
queue
Colin
to
make
sure
that
when
you
know
it
had,
it
was
in
your
queue
and
I
was
I
was
able
to
be
about
available
for
questions
and
to
follow
the
process.
A
It
seemed
to
me
that
it
had
it
just
hadn't
been
moving,
but
so
it's
it's
on
me
also
as
chair
for
not
realizing
that
there
were
pending
changes.
I
thought
actually
that
the
the
suggestions
had
been
pretty
well
addressed,
so
I'd
love
to
take
this
offline
with
the
two
of
you,
or
maybe
we
can
also
get
Gersh
about
as
the
co-author,
so
that
we're
all
on
the
same
page
about
what
actually
has
to
happen
with
this
draft,
because
I'm
I'm,
also
with
me
outside
I,
had
no
idea.
K
A
Definitely
that
was
also
my
impression,
so
okay
well
I,
think
there's
not
much
else,
but
yeah
Adrian.
You
were
in
the
queue.
Please
go
ahead.
E
E
Or
do
you
choose
your
defense
lawyer
or
to
be
represented
by
an
expert
or
a
spouse
is
not
explicitly
in
the
in
the
un
declaration,
but
then
we
have
things
like
the
freedom
of
Association,
which
was
mentioned
explicitly
in
the
beginning
and
so
in
in
my
work
around
protocols,
both
around
ganap
and
ietf,
and
a
bunch
in
in
other
forums,
I
I
find
that
I
need
to
have
a
more
sophisticated
understanding
of
privacy
considerations
from
this
point
of
view
of
Delegation
and
that
that's
kind
of
both
a
comment
and
a
question
if
it's
an
appropriate
one.
A
I
mean
thanks
Adrian
for
those
comments.
I
don't
know
if
others
want
to
respond.
A
So
I
think
we're
we're
off
this
now
Niels.
But
unless
you
want
to
just
stay
on
camera,
we
can
move
to
the
next
slides,
which
are
all
yours
to
pull
up
foreign.
C
Them
yeah
here
we
go
thanks
so
much
for
sharing
the
slides
thanks
all
for
the
work
we're
here
to
talk
about
draft
Association
next
slide.
Please
we've
been
working
on
this
together
with
Stefan,
coutures
and
Mallory.
It
is
trying
to
deliver
on
one
expected
part
of
the
objective
of
the
research
Group,
which
is
established.
The
relationship
between
a
particular
human
rights,
a
particular
freedom
of
expression
and
a
right
Association
to
internet
protocols.
C
C
Then
we've
been
working
on
a
way
forward
to
define
a
particular
structure.
Hence
they
found
a
reconducted.
The
literature,
review
and
identity
identified
their
sub
questions
that
we
then
subsequently
sought
to
add
to
answer
through
empirical
examples
that
we
did
by
adding
case
studies.
I
did
that
with
Mallory
to
answer
those
sub
questions
and
itf113
Nick
Doty
became
the
dog
Shepherd
and
conducted
a
review
next
slide.
C
Please
that
review
done
by
Nick
was
super
thorough
and
resulted
in
several
pull
requests
and
an
email
to
the
list,
and
what
the
draft
is
now
looking
at
is
what
are
the
considerations
of
the
right
to
freedom
of
assembly
and
the
right
to
freedom
of
Association
for
protocol
development?
C
It
contains
a
literature
review
that
results
in
seven
research,
sub
questions
and
the
sub
questions
are
answered
with
examples
or
cases
of
ITF
protocols
and
in
a
restructure
where
we
have
a
a
still
something
to
discuss,
whether
to
structured
examples
from
issue
Centric
to
protocol
Centric
and
right
now,
they're
issue
Centric,
because
the
sub
questions
are
as
well
and
then
to
the
conclusions.
Next
slide,
please.
C
So,
since
09
there
have
been
nits,
there's
been
lots
of
copy
editing
going
on
and
a
lot
of
deepening,
adding
references
and
some
some.
Then
what
we
still
now
looking
at
is
this
restructuring.
Should
spam
and
mailing
list
be
shown
as
cases
to
answer
particular
sub
questions,
or
should
they
be
mentioned
once?
C
But
if
we
do
that,
then
we
might
need
to
restructure
the
whole
thing
and
it's
not
be
consistent
through
the
whole
document,
so
that
that's
a
bit
of
a
can
of
worms
that
I
don't
not
necessarily
know
how
to
solve
and
Nick
opened
some
good
questions
needing
citations
and
proposed
texts
on
the
hrpc
mailing
list,
but
I
have
sought
to
address
them
all
in
the
latest
version.
So
I'm
also
curious
to
hear
what
you'll
think
about
that
next
slide.
C
Please,
and
this
is
the
the
structure
where
it
is
now,
so
there
are
the
different
sub
questions,
so
one
is
about
got
no
peace
about
being
assembling
freely
and
addressing
others
and
the
right
demonstration
holistic
agency.
That's
mentioning
mailing
list
mechanic
example
and
in
the
Civics
in
cyberspace.
It's
also
showing
mailing
lists
again.
So
right
now
we're
answering
based
on
issues
and
these
Technologies
are
used
in
different
ways
for
different
examples.
C
They
could
also
be
put
together,
but
then
would
then
problematize
the
way
that
we
structured
the
answers
now,
so
it's
a
bit
either
or-
and
it's
hard
to
do
this-
to
do
it
to
do
both
at
the
same
time,
because
that
would
then
lead
to
like
a
demolishing
of
the
structure.
We've
been
working,
long
and
hard
at
next
slide.
Please.
C
C
Actions
is
establish
agreements
on
the
way
forward
for
the
example,
so
the
keeping
the
structure
are
changing.
It
a
proposed
a
title
change,
because
freedom
of
Association
on
the
internet
was
not
very
clear
that
it's
actually
about
protocols,
so
I
worship
the
title
a
bit
to
make
it
very
clear.
So
the
proposal
for
the
title
change
is
the
human
rights
to
freedom
of
Association
and
assembly
and
internet
protocols.
C
We
call
for
volunteers
to
review
and
and
revise,
even
though
we've
largely
done
a
lot
of
work,
but
other
people
are
always
welcome
to
review
and
make
suggestions
and
looking
to
hear
from
Nick
what
he
thinks
about
what
we
did
with
the
document
and
whether
it
fixed
the
issues
we
had
next
slide.
Please
I
think
that
was
it.
A
G
Yes,
thank
you.
I'll
I'll,
be
very
brief.
I
I
had
that
question
about
structure,
because
I
thought
it
was
confusing
to
me
as
a
reader
about
coming
back
to
those
topics,
but
I
do
think
the
issue
I
I
understand
better.
Now,
oh,
we
have
to
do
an
issue
by
issue
and
then
some
of
the
same
protocols
and
and
and
protections
are
going
to
come
up
in
those
different
issues,
so
so
I
think
that
makes
sense.
I,
I
might
I
I.
G
Think
it's
asking
for
me
to
do
a
re-review.
That's
reasonable
and
I
might
suggest
wording
changes,
work
them
just
to
help.
People
like
me
who
were
confused
but
I,
don't
think
we
need
I
I.
Think
the
argument
for
having
the
structure
issued
by
issue
that
that
makes
sense
to
me
so
I
I,
that
that
would
be
my
initial
reaction.
If
other
people
have
a
different
proposal
happy
to
hear
it.
A
But
it's
because
we're
trying
to
answer
remember
these
cases
and
examples
are
trying
to
answer
the
previous
section
that
begs
more
areas
of
research
from
the
literature
review,
so
we're
trying
to
to
pull
those
out
more
I.
Think
your
comment.
Another
structural
comment
you
had
Nick
was
just
about
expanding
them,
so
these
these
cases
and
examples
aren't
very
robust.
They
don't
say
very
much.
They're
short,
so
one
thing
we
could
do
is
you
know
actually
just
try
to
say
more,
which
I
think
is
a
fair
point.
C
Yeah
I
fully
agree
with
this
point
and
in
a
new
version,
I
saw
to
expand
them
already
and
embed
them
deeper
in
connect
them
closer
to
the
question
and
make
the
answer
super
precise.
After
the
end
of
every
paragraph.
That
ends
a
section.
A
A
A
Okay,
I'm
hearing-
that's
not
controversial
good,
so
I
think
in
that
case
we
would
really
just
ask
I,
think
we're
overtime
but
yeah.
We
would
just
ask
that
for
folks
interested
we
can
post
this
to
the
list.
Obviously
we'll
post
the
notes,
yeah
we'll
get
a
new
version
out
soon
and
then
yeah.
If
Nick,
you
wanted
to
do
a
re-review,
maybe
in
before
the
next
versions
out
you
we
could
go
back
and
either
accept
your
PRS
or
do
other
things.
A
Cool
great
I
think
that
that
is
the
in,
but
we
did
have
aob
I
believe
there
may
be
folks.
I
know
have
approached
me
asked.
If
there
were,
there
would
be
time
to
consider
new
areas
of
work,
which
is
something
we
always
want
to
do
so,
while
we're
a
bit
over
time,
we
are
over
time.
Is
it
not,
then
yeah?
A
A
I'm
not
seeing
anybody
in
the
room
I'm
not
seeing
anybody
online
so
with
that
really
appreciate
you
all
for
coming
thanks
again
for
a
lovely
session,
a
special
thanks
to
our
speakers,
baraf
and
Alana
for
coming
along
and
inspiring
us
to
do
new
and
interesting
and
very,
very
important
areas
of
work
in
the
irtf
yeah,
thanks
very
much
to
Colin,
to
Nick
to
folks
who
really
had
to
come
off
Mike
or
come
on
Mike
and
on
short
notice.