►
From YouTube: IETF115-TDD-20221108-0730
Description
TDD meeting session at IETF115
2022/11/08 0730
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/115/proceedings/
B
A
C
D
E
B
C
So
it
is
now
Tuesday
morning,
so
many
of
you
have
probably
seen
the
note.
Well
if
this
is
a
surprise
to
you,
please
do
go,
have
a
look
at
this
wall
of
text
by
downloading
it
from
the
data
tracker.
Make
sure
you
understand
it
any
so
we
didn't
really
have
any
participation
with
the
mic
yesterday
today.
C
C
C
Moral
support
for
Martin
and
slides
from
Martin
we'll
be
talking
about
some
experience
with
deploying
quick
at
scale
and
then
Lucas
who
I
don't
see
here,
but
he
had
to
commute
in
so
he'll,
be
here
in
a
bit
we'll
be
talking
about
applying,
observing
and
debugging
quick
and
then,
after
that,
we're
going
to
have
all
of
our
speakers.
Come
up
for
a
panel
discussion,
slash
q,
a
that
is
the
audience
participation
part.
So
you
know
those
of
you
who
are
still
waking
up.
C
A
C
C
D
But
one
major
issue
is
when
you
have
any
cast
where
you're
using
bgp
to
try
to
like
do
load
balancing
for
a
single
IP
potentially
globally.
In
our
case,
it's
there
are
a
number
of
complications,
so
one
complication
is,
if
you
ever
want
to
change
the
weights
on
bgb
or
anything
about
the
bgp
announcements.
D
Another
problem
is
also
connection
migration.
So
typically,
when
you
migrate
a
connection
when
you
think
of
like
connection
migration,
you're
migrating
say
from
like
cell
to
Wi-Fi
or
vice
versa,
so
it's
fairly
common
you're
actually
going
to
land
on
a
different
as
an
entirely
different
network
and
as
a
result,
it's
fairly
likely
that
you
actually
land
on
basically
like
an
entirely
different
peering
Point.
Next
slide.
G
D
The
identity
load,
balancing
and
then
we're
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
black
hole
or
flow
black
cohing,
a
fun
little
story
on
an
outage
that
we
had
just
about
a
year
ago
and
then,
like
one
slide
on
zero
RT
in
quick,
and
why
it's
hard,
as
well
as
some
information
that
you
can
go,
look
at
more
if
you
want
to
care
so,
let's,
let's
go
next
slide,
actually
two
more
there.
So
this
is
essentially
the
situation.
D
I
was
talking
about
where
we
have
an
anycast
address
or
using
an
L4
load
balancer
or
in
this
case,
like
a
slightly
more
intelligent,
L4
load.
Balancer
is
quick
aware
and
we're
sending
it
to
an
L7
server
of
some
sort,
whether
it's
application
front
end
or
another
layer
of
load,
balancers
or
another
layer
of
load
balances,
and
so
again,
if
you
have
flapping
or
anything
else,
next
slide
or
connection
migration,
it's
fairly
likely.
You
will
end
up
on
another
load
balancer.
D
So
when
you
arrive
at
the
second
load
balancer
it's
like
is
this
a
new
flow
I,
don't
know
what
to
do
with
this
I'll
load
balance
it
like
a
new
flow.
So
it's
like
all
the
old
information
is
lost.
We
have
a
lot
of
servers.
The
odds
you
hit.
The
same
server
is
basically
zero
and
you
know
the
whole
thing
fails
and
yeah
and
migration
will
fail.
So
we'd
really
like
this
to
work,
because
we'd
really
like
to
move
more
traffic
to
anycast,
actually
for
a
number
of
reasons.
D
D
D
Perfect
linkability
is
basically
like
anytime.
You
have
a
single
device
connecting
to
a
single
machine
and
you
can
like
track
it
the
whole
time.
You
know
if
it,
if
you
have
a
single
IB,
for
example,
in
a
single
device
like
that's
perfectly
trackable
right
like
it
doesn't
even
matter
if
quick
is
involved
or
any
other
thing
is
involved,
like
you're,
going
to
be
able
to
track
that
connection.
D
Because
there's
you
know,
there's
only
one
connection
to
that
IP
in
the
entire
world.
So
that's
kind
of
the
worst
case
scenario,
and
you
know
so
for
but
more
typically,
what
you
have
is
kind
of
a
good
number
of
clients
next
slide
connecting
to
quite
a
large
number
of
servers,
and
you
know
asymptotically.
D
This
looks
like
perfect
unlinkability,
so
anycast
is
actually
helpful
here
in
the
sense
that
there's
only
one
Global
IP,
and
so
you
have
a
lot
of
servers.
That
kind
of
look
like
one
server
and
potentially
you
have
something
like
you
know:
a
million
clients
or
possibly
even
more,
connecting
to
that
IP
at
any
given
point
in
time,
and
you
combine
that
with
encrypted
connection
IDs
from
Quick
lb,
and
you
start
like
approaching,
you
know
some
real
vision
of
unlinkability.
That's
that's
quite
strong.
D
You
know
it
the
what
the
word
perfect
is.
You
know
it
is
asymptotic,
but
it
becomes
extraordinarily
difficult
as
an
adversary,
short
of
compromising
the
keys.
So
it
becomes
quite
a
compelling
proposition
from
our
privacy
perspective,
as
well
as
from
a
network
infrastructure
perspective,
and
that's
why
we're
we're
deploying
it.
So,
hopefully
you
know
probably
q2ish
q1ish
next
year.
If
all
things
go
well,.
D
D
B
D
Martin
Duke
in
the
front
row
is
the
expert
and
as
well
as
author
of
quick
lb,
and
so
you
know
any
any
super
detailed
questions.
I
will
defer
to
him
and
he
will
be
on
the
panel
with
us.
So,
okay,
there
we
go
yay.
Okay,
this
is
the
thing.
I
was
alluding
to
the
entire
time.
So
quick
lb
has
a
single
connection,
ID
format
that
begins
with
two
bits
for
config
ID,
so
that
allows
like
rotation
of
keys
and
some
other
things.
D
It
has
what
is
called
a
server
ID
portion
and
a
nonce
portion
and
the
you
know
the
typical
approach
is
that
I
think
at
least
in
the
encrypted
version,
which
is
what
we're
looking
to
deploy
that
this
is
basically
like
all
encrypted,
and
this
is
all
you
know,
except
for
the
few
bits
and
the
the
length.
This
is
all
essentially
opaque,
bytes
to
any
passive
Observer
yeah,
but
the
technically.
The
draft
allows
for
unencrypted,
but
I
personally
would
not
recommend
then,
and
the
marginal
cost
of
doing
encrypted.
D
D
Different
infrastructures
are
different,
but
the
key
fact
here
is
when
a
packet
that
it
does
not
know
how
to
route
arrives,
I,
don't
any
load
balancer
on
Earth.
As
long
as
that
load
balancer
has
the
keys
that
we
have
distributed
to
it
in
order
to
decrypt
these
connection
IDs,
it
can
decrypt
the
connection
ID
look
at
the
routing
information
inside
of
it
and
do
whatever
the
network
infrastructure
like
needs
it
to
do
so
like
at
Google.
D
D
Okay,
let's
talk
about
black
bowling,
so
this
has
been
a
problem
for
a
while,
at
least
for
quick.
This
is
partially
historically
due
to
some
issues
with
middle
boxes.
I
think
most
of
those
issues
have
been
solved,
at
least
to
my
knowledge,
but
nonetheless
the
internet
is
a
terrible
place
and
black
hauling
happens
and
it's
extremely
user
visible.
D
You
could
be
going
through
like
a
bad
Rudder.
You
could
end
up.
You
know,
there's
some
load
balancing
going
on
and
suddenly
you
end
up
getting
sent
through,
like
some
bizarre
peering
Point,
that's
like
extremely
far
away
and
there's
extraordinarily
High
packet
loss,
like
just
things
happen,
and
so
it's
not
that
uncommon
for,
like
you,
know
two
endpoints
to
be
largely
reachable
but
like
either
intermittently,
not
reachable
or
otherwise
unreliable.
D
D
D
So
it
does
reduce
tail
and
Z
has
some
downsides.
It's
kind
of
unclear
why
this
is
so
useful
on
the
server
as
well
as
the
client
we
tried
to
just
do
it
only
on
the
client
side
and
it
turned
out
doing
it
on
both
sides.
The
size
does
help
I
mean
I
can
come
up
with
theories,
but
it's
a
little
bit
hand-waving.
D
D
D
But
yeah.
Quite
simple
mechanism,
Works
quite
well
highly
recommend
it
yeah
and
a
nice
benefit
of
quick
over
TCP.
Actually,
because
we've
had
similar
problems
at
Google
for
TCP
and
the
solutions
are
much
more
challenging
than
just
changing
import.
As
I
said
IPv6,
you
know
flow
hashes
like
one
of
them,
so
next
slide
excellent.
D
Oh
so
we
had
an
outage
last
November
I'm
fairly
sure
it
was.
It
was
quite
terrifying.
Actually
it
was
definitely
like
one
of
the
scary
outages.
It
turns
out.
The
impact
will
not
end
up
being
as
bad
as
you
might
fear,
but
it
was
quite
terrifying.
So
there's
a
query
of
depth.
It
was
triggered
by
resumption
information
sent
by
gfes,
which
are
Google
front,
ends
two
clients
and
then
the
clients
within
the
resumption
information
back
to
servers.
D
D
D
So
at
Peak
it
was
around
10
of
all
GFS
or
public-facing
internet
servers
at
Google.
It's
quite
a
number,
but
it
was
very
uneven.
It
was
mostly
in
Europe
and
it
took
an
hour
and
44
minutes
to
fully
resolve
the
issue,
which
is
quite
a
while.
The
reason
for
that
is
actually
mostly
due
to
the
SRE
tooling
and
the
impact
on
that
the
reliability
Engineers
actually
did
not
have
access
to
number
the
tools
that
they
normally
would
have
access
to.
D
D
So
an
example
and
one
of
the
ones
that
happened
in
this
case
is
TLS
or
quick
resumption.
So
again
you
know
this
is
widely
used.
The
server
gives
the
client
something
that
the
client
then
repeats
back
to
the
server
and
then
the
server
parses
it.
And
then
you
know
if
server
a
produces
something
that
when
server
B
parses
it
it
crashes
or
otherwise
you
know,
has
undefined
Behavior
memory
access
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
then
you're
in
a
bad
place.
D
This
is
sort
of
a
unique
outage
in
the
sense
that
it
can't
be
fuzzed
in
traditional
Senses,
at
least
not
particularly
well,
and
it's
not
a
zero
day
in
the
sense
that
an
attacker
could
take
advantage
of
it.
So
as
an
attacker,
you
cannot
craft
a
token
or
a
resumption
ticket
that
our
servers
will
parse
it'll,
just
not
decrypt.
It
just
won't
work.
So
only
we
uniquely
have
the
power
to
cause
a
global,
zero
day,
contagion
outage
of
ourself.
D
D
So
a
browser
does
a
handshake
to
where
we
call
a
canary
GFE,
which
is
a
machine.
That's
you
know
using
the
latest
software
and
or
Flags
so
completes
the
handshake
get.
You
know
next
slide,
as
I
said
before.
A
token
is
given
to
the
client
that
you
can
use
to
approve
your
IP
address
for
future
use.
So
that's
the
source
address
token.
D
You
know
the
the
client
saves
it.
Everything
is
wonderful,
in
this
case,
the
canary
jobs
populated
a
new
field
that
was
mostly
used
for
informational
purposes,
but
you
know,
and
so
there's
this
new
field
that
was
that
was
shoved
into
this
particular
blob
of
data.
But
of
course
it's
all
encrypted
to
the
client
ganto
next
slide
again
tokens
and
on
the
by
the
client
demand
next
GFE.
This
one
does
not
have
the
new
code
and
Additionally.
D
The
token
should
be
cleared
no
matter
what,
after
doing
this
handshape,
because
you
already
used
it
once.
However,
due
to
a
bug
in
our
iitf
quick
implementation
in
Chrome
at
the
time
that
did
not
happen,
so
it's
sort
of
stuck
around
in
the
browser
until
a
handshake
completed,
but
unfortunately,
next
slide.
E
D
It
just
yeah,
so
you
basically
have
a
poison
token
that
will
never
clear
itself
and
the
sir.
The
client
will
just
keep
like
contacting
servers
and
be
like
I.
Don't
understand
like.
Why?
Are
you
not
there?
Why
are
you
not
responding
to
me
this
other
person
responded
to
me.
Why
don't
you
like
me
anymore
next
slide
and
it
keeps
trying
and
they
keep
crashing
next
slide
yeah
exactly
so
the
one
of
the
good
things
that
did
happen
here
at
like
one
of
the
few
good
things
is
chromium.
D
D
I'm
gonna
have
to
do
this
from
memory:
okay,
two
seven
PSD,
so
the
middle
of
the
night
server
started
crashing.
The
automated
Canary
checks
started
noticing
that
servers
were
crashing.
They
instantaneously
rolled
them
back
after
only
two
servers
got
the
new
code.
This
rollback
took
approximately
four
minutes,
so
two
servers
performance
had
the
mysterious
code
enabled
on
them
so
but
zero.
D
Three
one
everything
was
rolled
back,
sres
were
looking
at
it
and
they
were
confused
because
the
rollback
had
completed
successfully
and
servers
were
still
crashing
and
additionally,
they
started
realizing
that
none
of
their
tooling
worked.
So
all
of
their
monitoring
and
everything
at
least
in
the
London
office,
was
completely
unaccessible.
D
They
couldn't
access
logging,
they
couldn't
access
crash
dumps,
they
couldn't
access,
they
could
barely
even
figure
out
like
how
many
servers
were
actually
crashing
or
where
it
was
quite
Dreadful
and
it
took
them
a
while
to
even
realize
that
this
was
not
an
in
fact.
A
global
Google
outage.
In
fact,
the
vast
majority
of
Europe,
where
this
was
centered,
had
no
outage
whatsoever
for
google.com
youtube.com
and
most
major
Google
domains
due
to
our
Quirk
of
how
this
particular
like
rollout
happened.
D
But
for
a
while
they
were
absolutely
paranoid
and
completely
apparent.
What
they
ended
up
doing
is
contacting
some
colleagues
in
Australia
and
New
Zealand,
who
are
awake
at
the
time
and
had
no
problems
whatsoever
accessing
these
corporate
systems,
because
it
basically
was
only
crashing
servers
in
Europe
and
they,
like
basically
hook
them
up
with
access
I,
think
it
also
turned
out
that
meat
worked
perfectly
during
this
time
so
like
they
like
once.
D
D
What
you
should
do
in
response
to
losing
that
packet
is
sometimes
subtle
and
if
you
get
it
wrong,
you
either
end
up
with
a
handshake
deadlock
or
something
that
takes
so
darn
long
to
complete
that
your
usual
will
be
very
unhappy,
so
like
a
single
packet
loss
at
the
wrong
moment,
if
you,
your
algorithm,
isn't
implemented
correctly,
can
easily.
You
know,
increase
tail
latency
a
few
seconds,
not
a
few
hundred
milliseconds,
so
Additionally.
The
key
management
is
less
synchronous
in
compared
to
like
TLS
over
TCB.
D
So
in
particular
the
problem
that
Chrome
had
was
Chrome.
Had
this
thing,
where,
like
it
made
the
keys
available
when
it
were
for
handshake
Keys
available
when
it
got
the
servers
initial
and
like,
and
then
it
could
parse
the
server's
handshake
packet
and
then
acknowledge
that
and
like
continue
through
the
quick
key
schedule.
D
Also
I'd
like
to
say
the
first
time
we
tried
to
enable
zero
to
T.
It
was
a
substantial
regression
compared
to
not
having
zero
to
D,
so
do
not
assume
it
will
be
faster,
just
because
it's
zero
to
T,
even
if
your
zero
to
T
success
rate
is
like
70
percent,
the
30
that
don't
work.
If
you
know
a
bunch
of
them
are
like,
have
terrible
tail
ends
here
or
something
it's
going
to
drag
everything
down.
It's
going
to
make
the
performance
worse
so
like.
D
That
being
said,
once
there's
a
win
for
you
for
a
given
implementation,
I
would
expect
it
to
be
a
win
for
all
applications
using
that
implementation.
So
I'm
not
saying
you
have
to
like
retest
it
per
application,
but
for
developers
I
would
just
definitely
be
very
cautious
about
that.
An
amount
of
time.
C
H
You're
gonna
have
a
clock:
oh
I'll,
get
your
clock.
Okay,
I'll
fill
in
the
meantime,
I
was
trying
to
think
of
a
transport
related
joke
on
the
way
in
while
I
stood
on
the
tube.
All
I'll
say
is
my
round
trip
time
from
here
to
home
is
about
eight
hours,
I
think
so
anyway,
I'm
Lucas
Padu
I'm
a
co-chair
of
the
quick
working
group
I'm
here
today
to
talk
you
through
all
these
slides
about
applying,
observing
and
debugging
quick
I'm.
H
A
little
tired,
so
just
bear
with
me
in
case
I
ramble
a
bit,
but
I've
got
a
clock,
so
I
won't
run
over
time.
So
this
is
good.
I
wanted
to
spend
more
time
talking
about
the
applicability
in
this
talk,
but
there's
just
way
too
many
slides.
So
in
the
slide
deck
are
a
load
of
overflow
got
a
backup
slides.
Maybe
if
you
have
some
questions
towards
the
end
or
in
the
panel
session,
we
could
go
back
to
those
or
you
go
away
and
you're.
H
So
inspired
by
this
talk,
you
want
to
find
out
a
bit
more.
So
just
keep
that
in
mind
in
this
talk,
we're
just
going
to
kind
of
probably
touch
on
other
topics
that
Martin
Jana,
Ian
and
Martin
may
be
touched
on,
but
just
from
a
lens
of
something's
going
wrong
with
my
quick
connections.
I,
don't
really
understand
it
that
well
I'm,
maybe
like
an
SRE
or
an
Ops
person
and
I
just
need
to
figure
this
out.
H
I'm
familiar
with
TCP
I
understand
networking,
but
what
what
can
I
transfer
from
my
previous
knowledge
into
quick
and
what
things
shouldn't
I
do?
Where
do
I
need
to
retrain
my
brain,
these
kinds
of
things,
so
this
is
just
going
to
walk
through
a
couple
of
real
world
examples.
Literally
something
I
was
looking
into
the
other
week,
There's
a
silly
book,
but
you
know
something:
that's
been
there
latent,
and
so
we
looked
at
it
and
so
let's
go
next
slide.
Please,
but
first
the
important
things
just
to
reiterate.
H
If
you
haven't
learned
anything
yet
in
these
technical,
deep
Dives,
the
quick
is
not
TCP.
There's
lots
of
similarities,
but
it's
different
and
those
differences
are
the
the
kind
of
the
the
places
where
you
might
stumble
or
fall
next
slide:
noise,
quick,
just
TLS
as
as
we
we
saw
yesterday's
presentation,
the
architecture
and
the
interactions,
the
models
between
quick
and
TLS.
H
You
probably
need
to
know
some
TLS,
so
some
of
the
stuff
we're
going
to
look
at
shortly
is
it's
going
to
get
into
things
like
TLS,
client,
hello,
understanding
around
aspects
of
the
TLs
handshake,
but
not
the
timing
and
interaction
specifically
of
those
messages.
It's
going
to
be
important,
because,
quite
often,
when
things
don't
work,
they
don't
work
from
the
first
step
where
the
handshake
fails.
So
let's
go
next
slide
and
it's
not
it's
not
HTTP.
H
This
is
one
of
my
bug:
beds,
quick,
yes,
okay,
G
quick
was
built
to
carry
HTTP,
but
that's
not
what
we
have
today.
We
have
our
ETF
quick
and
it's
capable
of
carrying
anything.
You
can
imagine
literally,
you
need
to
go
if
you
have
an
application
and
create
an
application.
Mapping
I'll
allude
to
that
later
on,
maybe
more
about
what
it
means.
H
But,
yes,
it's
not
just
HTTP.
There
are
aspects
of
Quick's
design
that
lend
itself
well
to
bi-directional
exchanges,
but
we
have
other
capabilities
to
carry
things
unidirectionally
or
we
have
a
datagram
extension
that
will
allow
unreliable
message.
Delivery,
don't
make
assumptions
about
your
understanding
of
how
HTTP
works
and
if
you
don't
understand
how
HTTP
works,
that's
even
better
because
you
can
come
in
and
take
all
these
learnings
away
next
slide.
Please-
and
it's
not
it's
definitely
not
the
web
over
EBP.
It's
it's
here
for
for
many
applications
in
our
working
group.
H
We
can
help
advise
you
if
you
want
to
use
Quick,
but
we
we
won't
be
The
Gatekeepers
for
application
mapping,
documents
that
describe
how
to
use
Quick
generally
the
transport
services
it
provides
work
now
module
some
implementation
concerns,
but
it's
it's
here
for
everyone
to
use.
It's
not
the
only
thing
you
should
use.
It's
not.
You
know
our
Panacea
of
everything,
but
it's
definitely
a
tool
to
sit
in
your
toolkit
for
internet
next
slide.
Please,
and
it's
quick
quick,
is
quick.
H
Next
slide,
it's
a
secure
transport
protocol,
which
means
we
might
have
some
issues
trying
to
analyze
it.
If
we're
doing
things
like
packet
captures,
just
keep
this
in
mind
that
some
of
the
things
you
might
be
able
to
do
with
TCP,
where
you're
analyzing
it
with
tools
like
Wireshark
they're,
not
impossible,
but
they're
different,
and
they
might
require
different
approaches
next
slide,
and
it's
what
you
make
it,
which
I've
already
touched
on
next
slide.
H
So
if
you
haven't
got
the
time
for
any
of
this
quick
starts
with
a
handshake,
we
have
application
data
sent
as
soon
as
that.
Handshake
is
done
for
some
definition
of
then
Ian
just
talked
about
zero
rtt,
there's
different,
effectively
stages
within
the
connection.
The
application
data
can
be
exchanged,
but
it
all
relies
on
this
handshake
happening
first
post
that
at
some
phase
within
that
checkpoint,
the
package
is
going
to
be
protected.
H
If
you
don't
have
the
keys
for
that
session,
you're
not
going
to
be
able
to
see
the
contents
you'll
have
a
very
slim
sliver
of
information
available
in
a
header.
It's
tiny
and
you
can't
just
rely
on
that
and
the
other
important
thing.
Maybe
it's
been
touched
on
already,
but
we
we
have
a
reliable
and
unreliable
application
data.
The
reliable
data
is
re-transmitted
in
new
packets.
It's
not
re-transmitted
in
in
the
packet
being
resent.
H
This
can
cause
differences
in
the
way
that
packets
and
framing
work,
if
you're
familiar
with
TCP
and
you're,
trying
to
look
for,
maybe
particular
byte
offsets
within
a
packet
capture.
This
isn't
not
the
way
to
do
it,
you're
going
to
have
to
drill
down
into
streams
and
probably
any
application
layer
use
of
that
stream
or
reframing
or
subframing.
On
top
of
for
extremes
next
slide,
please,
and
we
talked
about
applicability
management
too.
H
Whatever
we
mean
by
management
of
a
network,
maybe
if
you're
just
an
operator
a
network,
then
you're
the
manager
I,
don't
want
to
get
into
that,
but
we
have
two
excellent
drafts
that
have
been
published
in
September
so
fairly
recently,
but
they've
been
developed
alongside
their
core
Roc
specs,
you
know
899
through
9003,
and
they
cover
two
different
aspects
of
things.
You
might
not
be
aware
of
these
documents.
H
They're
a
really
good
read
if,
if
you
want
to
get
away
from
the
nitty-gritty
protocol
details
which
are
good-
but
you
know
that's
more
of
a
reference
manual,
these
documents
are
written
for
a
different
target
audience.
The
first
one
is
the
applicability
draft
RFC
9308
talks
about
the
features
of
a
transport
protocol,
how
you
might
adapt
your
application,
whatever.
That
is
to
work
on
top
of
quick,
but
not
just
an
instruction
guide.
H
But
the
caveats
are
considerations
that
you
might
need
to
make
where
you
have
stream
concurrency,
that's
a
different
feature
compared
to
TCP,
which
had
one
single,
reliable,
byte
stream,
quick
off
easy,
a
lot
more
things
and
a
lot
more
ways.
You
could
hurt
yourself
and
a
lot
more
potential
for
interrupt,
consider
problems
so
where
you
have
a
client
in
the
server
that
have
a
different
kind
of
understanding
about
what
concurrency
means,
for
example.
H
So
it's
an
excellent
documentation
document
for
that
kind
of
thing
and
then
a
completely
different
target
audience
in
the
manageability
draft,
which
is
more
for
people
who
aren't
operating
a
quick
stack
entirely,
but
seeing
quick
traffic
flowing
back
and
forth
across
their
Network.
So
this
touches
on
the
quicker
variants
and
the
quick
transport
protocol
and
gives
you
effectively
some
explanation
about
what
quick
is
or
what
quick
will
be?
Maybe
how
to
analyze
it,
maybe
how
you
won't
be
able
to
analyze
it
compared
to
other
protocols
that
are
traversing
your
network.
H
So
next
slide,
please
again,
let's
go
back.
Everything
starts
with
a
handshake,
there's
all
the
the
places
where
handshakes
mentioned
it's
everywhere.
It's
great.
This
is
already
covered,
I
hope,
but
the
key
items
here
I
want
to
focus
on
today
are
these
two
packet
types
that
we
have
initial
and
handshake.
These
are
the
things
you'll
probably
see
in
the
first
five
lines
of
any
lecture
that
you
take.
H
The
initial's
not
tight
is
a
type.
So
it's
not
an
adjective.
Sometimes,
when
I
talk
to
people
who
aren't
familiar
with
quick
and
talk,
I'd
say
you
know
we
need
to
see
the
initial
packet
and
they
think
they
mean
the
first
one,
but
you
get
things
like
re-transmissions
or
retries
reattempts
to
send
the
initial
and
you'll
see
multiple
initials
and
they
they
also
hinge
on
the
the
actor
in
The
Exchange.
H
So
you'd
have
a
client
initial,
the
server
initial
using
the
terminology
like
I'm
that
person
who
insists
on
trying
to
use
it
correctly
and
to
to
everyone's
annoyance.
But
it's
really
critical
here
and
and
my
my
understanding
is:
we
need
to
up
level
a
lot
of
people
within
the
wider
ecosystem,
people
like
sres
or
operations
to
really
they
don't
need
to
understand
all
of
the
details,
but
one
we're
just
communicating.
Can
you
help
me
and
see
if
the
initial
made
it
through
through
the
network
and
arrived
at
my
server
stack?
H
These
kind
of
conversations
people
can
be
familiar
with
the
TLs
terminology.
Like
did
we
receive
the
client
hello,
it's
similar
to
this
kind
of
thing?
So,
but
if
that's
one
thing
I
would
ask
you
to
focus
on
and
take
away
use
the
right
terms
next
slide,
please
so
there's
this
excellent
tool
called
The
Illustrated
guide
to
stuff
I,
can't
remember
the
right
name,
there's
a
link
here.
It
covers
not
just
quick
but
TLS,
1.2,
1.3
I
think
this
is
a
visualization
of
of
actual
kind
of
simulated
data.
H
If
you
go
to
that
website
in
the
repo
behind
it,
you'll
see
that
they
use
kind
of
real
client
server
interactions
and
take
the
pcap
and
then
take
those
bytes.
So
you
can
see
here,
I've
just
tried
to
point
the
text
as
well:
I
apologize,
but
there's
a
lot
of
stuff
going
on
I
do
encourage
you
to
go
visit
it,
but
you
can
see.
There's
there's
two
different
initials
within
this
vertical
trace:
the
client
initial
and
the
server
initial
the
arrows
there
kind
of
pointing
in
the
opposite
directions.
H
So
if
you
go
to
the
next
slide,
each
of
these
boxes,
you
can
expand
and
it's
really
meant
as
a
learning
tool.
This
isn't
a
debug
tool,
the
bytes.
Here
you
can
say
you
can
go
into
the
GitHub
and
they're
canned
and
you
can
go
and
understand
exactly.
Maybe
you
want
to
go
and
Fiddle
or
do
other
things.
Maybe
you've
got
some
comments
on
the
additional
kind
of
annotations
you
might
like
to
see,
but
you
can
you
can
open
up
the
client
initial.
H
You
can
view
the
TLs
client
hello
within
that
client
initial
and
then
drill
down
into
different
bytes
there.
So
it's
good,
if
you
just
want
to
say,
maybe
take
an
existing
trace
and
compare
it
to
kind
of
a
reference
example
say
next
slide,
please
just
to
drill
even
further
in
there
are
these
transport
parameters.
These
are
the
the
properties
of
a
it's,
a
connection
that
each
endpoint
will
advertise
to
its
peer.
H
We
don't
have
time
to
go
into
that,
but
if,
if
you're
like
looking
at
a
packet
capture-
and
you
see
and
you're
drilling
down-
and
you
see
these
transport
parameters-
and
you
think
what
what
are
these
going,
looking
Ayana,
they
should
be
registered
there.
Maybe
not,
but
you
know
this
will
give
you
a
brief
overview.
Most
of
these
are
in
RFC
9000,
but
we
have
things
like
extensions
which
would
use
transport
parameters.
These
kinds
of
things
might
be
new
to
you.
H
H
H
The
examples
here
for
the
remainder
of
this
session,
I
just
created
using
cloudflare,
quiche
I
work
for
cloudflare,
it's
the
client
and
the
server
I'm
most
familiar
with.
We
have
some
example
apps
in
the
repo
pretty
much
any
other
client
is
going
to
be
very
similar
to
this.
So
if
you
have
a
favorite,
you
could
probably
recreate
these
things,
but
just
in
this
example,
I
have
a
server
running
on
localhost
these
flags
effectively
minimize
the
handshake.
They
just
reduce
a
few
steps
for
clarity.
H
H
This
is
just
a
request
on
my
Local
Host
to
get
an
index
file
and
that
pick
app
underneath
what
you
see
is
very
small
text
and
you
probably
can't
see
it,
but
that's
kind
of
the
point
because
I
want
you
to
go
and
look
at
this
yourself,
but
the
first,
the
first
packet
or
the
first
line.
There
is
the
client
initial
going
towards
the
server
and
then
we
have
some
stuff
coming
back
in
the
other
way.
It
says
handshake
there,
but
we're
going
to
drill
into
that
next.
H
Well,
one
more
so
I
have
some
ready-made
examples.
Speaking
with
Brian,
we
thought
it
would
be
cool
to
like
take
some
live
real
things
that
I
captured
and
put
up
on
GitHub
this.
These
P
caps
and
Q
logs
that
I've
got
for
local
who's,
good,
just
a
simple
good
exchange
of
a
request
that
succeeded
at
the
quick
layer
at
least
so
next
slide,
please
again
too
tiny
to
see.
H
It's
easier,
it's
a
lot
easier
here,
because
we've
only
got
you
know
a
very
small
pcap
of
of
one
interaction,
and
we
already
know
that.
But
if
you're
kind
of
trying
to
find
a
needle
in
a
haystack
trying
to
look
for
some
of
these
things,
it
can
be
a
bit
difficult.
But
yeah
we've
got
indicators
like
the
source,
port
or
the
destination
Port.
This
is
a
bad
indicator
using
Source.
H
Port,
don't
rely
on
that
being
anything,
it
could
be
the
same
for
everything,
because
quick
is
clever,
but
alongside
that,
within
the
the
packet
type
information
here,
we've
got.
You
know
dissection,
to
tell
you
the
type
based
on
stuff
and
underneath
within
within
the
contents
of
the
client
initial.
We
have
the
the
client
hello.
So
this
is
the
TLs
client
Hello
message
again
zooming
in
we
see
the
transport
parameters.
This
is
exactly
the
same
as
the
other
slide.
H
I
showed
you,
but
these
are
the
actual
transport
parameters
that
the
the
quiche
client
sends
in
this
case.
Next
slide.
Please
important
thing
here
is
application
layer,
protocol
negotiation.
I
don't
really
have
the
time
to
get
into
this
at
all,
but
the
in
this
case,
what
happens
is
the
client's
going
to
send
a
whole
set
of
different
variants
or
versions
of
HTTP
that
it
talks?
H
So
it's
like
an
offer
answer
application
protocol,
and
this
is
it
you
might
see
different
lists
different
sets
of
protocols
in
there.
If
you're
writing
your
protocol,
you
should
definitely
make
an
alpn
for
it
because
it
helps
you
allow
multiplexing
of
different
applications.
Maybe
if
you
just
want
to
set
up
one
quick,
listening
port
and
support
a
slew
of
applications
on
there,
this
touches
on
the
applicability,
drafters
things
you
should
consider
around
transport
parameters
in
relation
to
the
application,
virtual
you're,
trying
to
negotiate
and
where
things
might
not
completely
converge.
H
But
that's
another
talk
for
another
day.
Go
read
the
applicability
draft
next
slide,
please
in
a
reverse
direction.
We
have
a
server
initial
and
a
handshake,
and
you
can
see
in
the
top.
The
indicators
are
kind
of
similar
The
Source
Port
is
the
server's
listening
address
that
we
showed
in
the
line
a
couple
of
slides
back.
We
have
the
the
initial
type
again
indicated
and
then
just
below
that
we
have
a
server
hello
coming
back,
but
we
can't
see
as
much
information
as
we
could
in
the
client
initial.
H
We
have
this
server
handshake
packet
just
underneath,
but
you
can
see
it's
been
quite
clear
there.
We
can't
decrypt
anymore,
because
the
secrets
aren't
available.
What
does
that
mean
next
slide?
Please
we
need
the
keys.
We
need
the
keys
to
see
the
full
picture
from
even
in
that
early
stage
of
you
know
one
and
two
interactions
going
in
in
opposite
directions.
H
We
might
not
be
able
to
see
everything,
that's
happening.
That
would
help
us
diagnose
some
kind
of
issue
that
might
be
happening
early
in
the
connection,
you're,
probably
familiar
with
something
called
SSL
key
log
file.
But
if
you're
not
it's
used
by
many,
but
not
all
implementations
endpoints
can
be
instructed,
but
like
an
environment
variable-
or
maybe
you
know
just
built
or
configured
to
drop,
sorry
Place
their
keys
explicitly
in
a
location
that
can
be
used
to
contain
the
session
keys
in
a
format.
H
This
is
kind
of
common.
It's
a
de
facto
standard
Martin's
been
working
on
a
new
ID
to
kind
of
formalize.
This
format,
which
is
good
work,
but
the
session
keys
are
symmetrical.
So
if
you
can
drop
them
from
the
server
or
the
client,
and
you
should
be
able
to
decrypt
the
the
packets
for
anything
so
depending
on
who
you
are
what
you're
in
control
of
sometimes
you
can.
You
can
use
this
as
a
kind
of
I
need
to
see
both
directions
of
traffic.
H
In
this
example,
like
I,
said
we're
just
using
an
environment
variable
to
to
dump
some
keys
into
files
locally,
we
can
configure
Wireshark
to
pick
that
file
up
next
slide.
Please
so
we
I
can't
go
into
it,
but
yeah.
The
Wireshark
documentation
will
explain
this
and
go
into
your
preferences
or
there's
all
kinds
of
cool
tricks
you
can
use,
but
once
you're
configured
once
it
finds
the
correct
session
keys
for
an
interaction.
H
H
But
if
we
revisit
the
kind
of
complete
picture,
not
just
the
one
packet,
we
can
see
the
dissection
without
the
keys.
There's
some.
You
know
the
top
four
lines
too
small,
again
sorry,
but
we've
got
some
packet
types
and
then
it
trans
kind
of
converts
into
those
protected
payload
where
we
can
see
a
field
called
the
DZ
I'll,
explain
that
in
a
couple
of
slides,
but
that's
it
if
you
click
those
things
you're
just
going
to
see
opaque,
bytes
and
you're
not
going
to
know
what
they
are
with
the
dissection.
H
Well,
with
keys,
you
can
see
that
we're
actually
can
drill.
In
now
we
can
see
different
packet
types,
packet
numbers
frames
within
those
packet
types
stuff
around
streams,
acknowledgments
crypto,
etc,
etc.
Next
slide,
please
and
then
I
touched
on
the
SIDS.
These
are
connection
IDs.
If
you
look
in
this
example,
we're
going
to
see
different
connection,
IDs
going
in
opposite
directions,
this
can
be
useful
if
you're
just
trying
to
trace
you
know
connections
of
a
particular
type
again,
if
you're
trying
to
find
a
needle
in
a
haystack
next
slide.
H
So
that's
why
shark,
and
that
does
one
thing
well,
especially
if
you
can
dump
the
keys,
but
we
have
something
called
q
log,
which
is
like
my
colleague
Robin
down.
The
front
has
been
working
on
for
a
number
of
years.
He'll
tell
me
my
description
is
rubbish
here,
so
go
and
speak
to
us
at
the
end,
and
we
can
inform
you
everything,
but
you
know
the
implementations
often
have
debugging
or
you
know,
logging
of
their
own
to
augment
stuff.
H
H
So
so
what
we
have
in
the
quick
working
group
is
adopted,
working
items
for
a
kind
of
core
base
schema
and
cddl.
This
is
very
extensible.
We
can
use
accessibility
to
Define
concrete
definitions
at
the
moment.
We're
just
focused
on
quick
and
HTTP
3
related
events,
because
that's
what
we've
worked
on,
but
other
kinds
of
things
can
be
added.
So
if
you're
adding
application
mapping
you
can
well,
maybe
you
wanted
to
find
some
q
log
events.
That's
something
we're
trying
to
figure
out
this
week.
H
H
So,
if
you're
trying
to
find
a
bug
between
client
and
server
implementations-
and
you
understand
what
stack
that
is
so
it's
curl
built
with
hb3-
you
can
enable
q
log
and
get
this
q
log
format
out
and
stick
it
somewhere.
That
will
help
you
analyze,
maybe
fault,
diagnose,
more
quickly
or
understand,
what's
happening
with
the
congestion
window
next
slide
and
we
have
cuviz,
Robin's,
lovely
Q
visitor,
which
I
would
just
describe
as
trying
to
make
sense
out
of
Oodles
of
data.
H
If,
if
you
went
on
the
GitHub
and
grabbed
some
of
the
the
reference
material
I
had
you
can
go
to
this
tool
now
you
want
to
do
for
option
two
upload
a
file.
It's
not
an
upload.
It's
kind
of
all
client
hosted
for
what
we
would
analyze
today,
at
least
so
all
happened
in
JavaScript
in
your
browser
and
come
up
with
this
kind
of
excellent
sequence.
Diagram.
H
Again
way
too
small
to
see
the
details
here,
but
this
is
effectively
rendering
the
same
information
we
just
looked
at
in
the
Wireshark
in
a
different
way.
So
this
is
going
to
give
you
maybe
a
bit
more
of
a
context,
aware
view
of
packets,
exchanging
between
the
client
on
the
left
and
the
server
on
the
right,
each
Line's,
a
packet.
H
That's
my
interpretation
again,
Robin
correct
me
at
the
end,
but
within
those
you
have
the
frames,
we
have
kind
of
a
very
quick
summary
view
of
what
those
frames
are
and
then,
if
you
click
any
of
those
boxes,
it's
going
to
give
you
an
expanded
View
and
it's.
This
is
a
real
example,
but
it's
a
good
learning
tool
if
you're
just
trying
to
get
familiar.
H
If
you're,
not
somebody
who
can
read
a
spec,
you
know
in
one
go
and
walk
away
and
understand
everything
if
you're
a
bit
more
like
me
a
bit
more
practical
and
you
just
want
to
run
some
stuff,
try
some
things
out
and
do
this
next
slide.
Please
so
I
just
want
to
look
at
a
real
world
failure
that
we
had
again.
This
is
using
SSL
key
log
file,
they're
great
and
no.
H
The
box
is
in
the
wrong
place,
oops,
so
yeah,
it's
using
SSL
key
log
fault,
amazing,
but
there's
a
property
in
hb3.
You
need
to
be
able
to
open
some
new
directional
streams.
Again,
don't
have
the
time
to
go
into
that,
but
you
can
configure
this
quiche
client.
This
example
application
to
advertise
from
the
client
to
the
server
a
value
of
zero
that
it
can
open
zero
initial
unidirectional
streams
when
the
handshake
is
complete.
H
Our
server
code
doesn't
like
that.
It
wants
to
be
able
to
open
these
streams
and
if
it
can't
it
will
detect
the
error
in
the
code
and
send
a
connection
close
message.
So
an
explicit,
immediate,
close
from
the
server
to
the
client
to
say
I
want
to
open
up
the
Control
stream.
I
can't
sorry
like
go
away.
H
This
is
the
kind
of
thing
you
should
probably
be
looking
for,
if
there's
ever
a
report
of
an
issue
stream
research,
Connection,
close
messages
are
kind
of
good,
strong
indicators
of
what
happened,
but
maybe
not
why
next
slide
same
failure.
Same
same
Trace
effectively,
the
q
log
captured,
at
the
same
time
a
different
rendering
you
can
see
here.
The
connection
closes
in
the
bottom
in
red.
That's
as
much
as
you
can
see
because
of
the
rendering
but
yeah
it
might
be
a
better
way
to
view
these
things
next
slide.
H
Another
one.
Another
failure,
this
time
pretty
much
an
identical
command,
but
for
a
different
host
name.
So
the
last
one
was
the
localhost
and
this
time
to
to
my
website
and
in
the
packet.
Well,
the
peacock
looks
a
little
different,
it's
just
just
from
a
mile
kind
of
view,
it's
different,
which
is
always
a
good
sign
of
if
the
behavior
is
different.
If
someone's
saying
this
behaves
weird
for
this
thing
and
not
that
one
and
you
see
a
P
CAP,
that's
identical!
That's
annoying!
But
if
there's
something
like
this,
that's
immediately.
H
There's
a
change
in
Behavior!
That's
a
good
signal!
So
here
it's
like.
Where
is
that
connection
closed?
I
told
you
what
the
behavior
was,
what
we're
expecting
we're?
Not
seeing
that
why
slope
is
qviz,
it's
even
worse!
It's
even
smaller!
You
can't
see
it
the
indicator
here.
Is
it's
really
long?
There's
a
lot
of
things
going
on
here
in
terms
of
timing,
there's
no
collection
closed
received
by
the
there's,
a
bug
here.
It's
received
by
the
client,
not
the
server,
but
anyway
backside.
Please.
H
So
what's
the
difference,
you
know
we've
got
effectively
the
same
client
Behavior,
it's
just
pointing
at
two
different
endpoints.
Are
they
a
different
implementation?
Are
they
different
Stacks?
No,
like
they
use
the
same
underlying
stack
in
this
case.
I
know
that,
but
that's
because
I've
got
Insider
knowledge.
What's
the
root
cause,
what
could
this
possibly
be
and
that's
what
I
had
to
spend
some
time
on
the
other
day
looking
into
outside.
H
So
the
root
cause
here
is
a
trouble
with
timing.
The
hb3
light
library
that
we
use
for
the
server
side,
like
I
say
it
sees
the
zero
doesn't
like
it
cause
close
on
the
transport
layer,
passes
it
an
application
layer
code
and
a
reason,
but
neither
the
application
or
the
hb3
library
track.
The
transport
State.
The
handshake
had
completed
correctly
at
that
time,
so
that
this
doesn't
happen
unilaterally,
but
there's
some
timing,
differences
that
I
found
and
because
there's
a
potential
leak
of
information
of
application
layer.
H
H
But
that
was
just
a
bug
and
so
the
the
server
didn't
send
that
the
the
client
kept
retrying,
not
retiring.
That's
what
I
want
to
do,
but
eventually
the
idle
timeout
kicked
in
and
gave
up
after
several
rounds
of
retry
X
slide,
and
so
that
that
debugging,
given
I
had
some
tooling
and
some
knowledge
of
where
to
look
God
quite
quickly.
H
So
yes,
in
summary,
it
works.
If
you
know
what
to
do
and
that's
what
I
want
to
make
sure
that
we
can
scale
out
our
understanding
of
quick
our
ability
to
use
it,
it's
one
thing
having
us
back
on
the
Shelf
great
wow,
but
we
want
people
to
use
this
quick,
as
in
TCP,
it's
not
TLS,
it's
not
HP
or
the
web
over
UDP.
H
H
There's
minimal
information
available
on
the
wire
crc9312
for
the
for
information
about
how
to
observe
quick
if
you
you're,
not
as
kind
of
involved
in
the
interaction
between
client
and
servers,
you
would
like
and
and
just
be
aware
that
implementations
and
deployments
can
behave
differently.
Sometimes
there's
bugs
sometimes
there's
a
lot
of
things
defer
to
an
implementation
choice.
H
You
know
I
should
kind
of
level
of
normative
requirement
and
just
opinions
of
The
Operators,
so
I
don't
assume
too
much
I,
don't
assume
that
the
implementation
is
perfect
or
that
a
behavior
that
you
see,
that
seems
weird,
isn't
done
by
intention
and
there's
ways
you
can
kind
of
get
some
logs
to
do
this.
That's
it.
C
H
C
C
And
actually,
if
one
of
you
could
grab
the
mic
and
we'll
do
the
past,
the
mic
thing
yeah
and
if
you
have
any
questions
for
any
or
all
of
our
speakers,
please
put
yourself
in
queue
and
come
up
to
the
mic.
Now
I'll
give
people
a
couple
of
seconds
to
figure
out
what
they
want
to
do
before
I
start
asking
my
own
questions.
I
C
B
J
K
K
By
doing
that,
we
were
able
to
use
TLS,
which
is
a
much
simpler
protocol,
and
so
we
avoided
all
the
detail
list
Machinery
necessary
to
do
reliability
and
fragmentation
reordering
and
all
those
sorts
of
other
wonderful
things
and
just
use
the
stuff
that
we
use
for
reconstructing
streams
in
quick
and
and
that
turned
out
to
be
much
much
easier
in
the
end
as
it
turns
out
once
we
made
that
decision
it
was.
It
was
very
straightforward
to
to
use
all
of
the
quick
machinery
for
for
managing
packet
loss,
recovery
order,
delivery
and
whatnot.
C
The
advantage
of
you
can
use
like
a
sort
of
a
single
software
architecture
and
the
disadvantage.
Is
you
get
a
really
wonky
layering
diagram,
right,
I?
Think
it's
like
and
we
we
spoke
about
that
early
on.
It's
like.
Oh,
this
layering
diagram
looks
weird.
There
must
be
something
wrong
here
and
it
turns
out
that
it
was
right
because
otherwise
you
have
to
have.
J
J
Yeah
I
mean
I
I,
think
we've
always
held
that
the
layering
diagram
should
follow
reality.
Reality
shouldn't
follow
the
diagram,
and
in
this
particular
case
it
was
very
obvious
that
actually
having
a
separate
loss,
detection
recovery,
Machinery
was
going
to
be
fundamentally
sub-optimal.
It's
not
something
you
want.
If
you
have
a
big
data
stream
and
you
have
all
the
mechanisms
built
in
you
want
to
use
the
same
one
for
all.
The
data
that
you
send
not
just
for
the
handshake
data
is
not
special
in
this
particular
way.
J
D
D
It
may
be
off
sooner
for
sure
than
other
properties,
so,
like
YouTube
might
go
down
like
turn
it
off
earlier
and
stuff,
but
it's
either
going
to
be
very
end
of
Q4
or
q1
that
you're
going
to
start
seeing
it
being
turned
off.
Hopefully
the
code
will
be
delayed
by
the
mq1
if
I'm
really
lucky,
but
it
it's
a
lot
of
code,
and
maybe
you
do.
F
D
Just
don't
let
any
package
through
because
remember
one
packet
in
each
direction
is
enough
to
complete
a
handshake
in
some
circumstances,
and
so
like
some
we've
had
issues
with
packet
inspection
where,
like
some
of
them,
are
like
I'm,
going
to
take
a
few
packets
to
figure
out
what
flow
type
this
is,
and
it's
like
after
three
packets,
it's
like
yeah
I,
don't
think
I
know
what
this
is
so
I'm
going
to
just
drop
it.
It
goes
terribly.
These
are
experiences
Dreadful.
G
E
G
K
So
the
the
manageability
draft
talks
about
from
from
the
client
or
server
side
when
you,
when
you
potentially
have
a
middle
box
on
the
path,
that's
doing
that
or
something
or
firewalling,
and
as
long
as
they
follow
the
advice
that
Ian
talked
about
there,
then
then
things
will
work.
What
we
do
find,
though,
is
that
some
Nats
will
time
out
faster
than
the
connections.
Will
time
out,
that's
okay,
the
use
of
connection
IDs
will
ensure
that
connections
will
still
manage
to
to
work.
K
It
looks
like
migration
at
the
server,
but
everything
just
sort
of
sort
of
works
out
reasonably
well.
We
don't
recommend
that
people
do
keep
lives.
Keeper
lives
are
useful
in
very
narrow
circumstances,
but
in
most
cases
you
won't
need
them.
It
is
better
to
just
walk
away
from
a
connection
and
never
send
any
other
packets.
If
you
don't
need
it,
and
we
found
that
in
particular
when
you're
dealing
with
mobile
devices.
J
So
if
the
quick
connection
were
to
fail,
the
user
would
not
see
a
problem
would
be
able
to
fall
back
to
http,
2
and
TCP,
and
that
would
work
just
fine.
That's
currently
something
that
we
do
across
the
board
and
the
problem
is:
if
quick
doesn't
fail,
quick
succeeds,
HTTP
succeeds
and
then
fails.
Eventually,
that's
a
harder
one
to
debug
is
the
is
the
the
basis
for
that
now.
J
J
D
One
thing
I'll
add
is,
as
the
stated
in
the
manageability
draft,
if,
if
possible,
if
Nats
could
actually
conform
to
the
RFC
and
I
use,
the
I
think
two
minute:
minimum
idle
timeout
for
not
rebounding
that
that
would
be
that's
sufficient
for,
like
I,
think
the
vast
majority
of
use
cases.
But
if,
if
that's
that
would
be,
my
like
ask
is
like
ideally
if
they
could
do
that.
That
would
be
wonderful.
H
Hey
just
to
add,
John
touched
on
TCP
fallbacks.
This
works
well
for
HTTP,
but
quick
is
not
just
HTTP.
So
if
you
are,
if
you're
designing
another
application
to
go
on
top
of
quick
you,
you
might
have
different
world
or
different
considerations,
maybe
you're
taking
something
like
that.
Already
works
over
TCP
and
a
new
mapping
on
to
Quick.
The
applicability
draft
gives
a
good
section
of
considerations
about
the
need
for
a
TCP
fallback,
but
not
the
Mandate,
and
gives
the
color
commentary
about
these
kinds
of
trade-offs,
which
are
Illuminating.
L
George
Michaelson
can
I
shift
Target
a
little
bit
which
riffs
on
what
you
just
said.
I
realize
99.999
of
the
world
is
HTTP
and
I
would
approve
of
targeting
the
thing
that
will
make
everyone
happy
and
money,
but
I
live
in
SSH
and
mosh
and
I
sit
here
wondering
why?
Isn't
there
a
shimlair
library
that
simply
allows
me
to
do
single
packet,
transactional
work
reliably
across
address
Mobility,
taking
care
of
this
stuff?
Why
hasn't
there
been
an
interface
spec?
L
That
gives
me
a
command
and
control
interface
for
a
machine
that
runs
over
quick
and
S
Tunnel
exists.
So
it's
not
like
people,
don't
understand
how
to
do
SSH
over
TLS
through
Packy
abstractions,
but
couldn't
you
code
a
shim
layer
that
just
gave
me
transparently
access
to
this
framework
to
do
zero,
rtt,
low
latency,
protected
access,
walk
away
from
it,
come
back
on
a
different
IP
and
carry
on
the
session.
L
G
D
J
I
mean
it's,
it's
mosh
solved
a
problem
for
all
of
us
right,
and
this
is
I
mean
it
did
solve
a
problem
for
all
of
us
and,
and
the
fact
is
that
it's
that
Mobility
is
something
we
want
session
Mobility.
Something
across
the
board
is
something
you
want
I
mean,
but
but
as
Martin's
pointing
out
I
think
that
the
protocol
offers
the
facility
for
doing
it.
L
No,
but
the
essential
quality
in
the
very
badly
worded
question
is:
there
is
a
significant
barrier
to
entry
unless
you
sit
in
HTTP
mode
and
think
oh
well,
quick
is
just
HTTP
I'll
use
Quick.
Well,
it's
not
just
HTTP
and
your
comment
when
to.
If
you
are
running
in
different
contexts,
you
may
have
to
do.
Tls,
failover
and
I'm
sitting
here
going
I
have
to
code
the
TLs
failover.
No,
you
should
be
coding
the
TLs
failover.
For
me
it
should
be
a
transparent
shim
function.
I
should
not
have
to
perform
that
function.
L
K
K
C
To
I
thought
one
of
you
was
going
to
say
the
following,
but
I
think
mask
is
tomorrow
morning.
Right
and
mask
is
about
80
of
what
you
want
built
put
together
in
a
different
way
for
a
different
use
case
right.
So,
like
I'm,
not
saying
you
know,
use
mask
for
mosh,
but
if
you
basically
reorganize
the
bits
of
mask,
you
could
build
a
mosh,
and
you
know
you
all
of
you
just
let
this
be
inspiration.
J
M
Yeah
I
was
going
to
say
yes,
I
am
working
on
something
like
that,
but
it's
going
to
be
a
long
time
before
it
works
over
quick
in
the
first
I've
got
to
work
out
how
to
do
exactly.
You
know,
transport
layer
fixed
then
work
out
what
the
API
needs
to
be
in
order
to
abstract
an
agile
cryptographic,
transport
or
whatever,
and
then
finally
I'm,
not
using
quick
at
the
moment
I'm
using
the
M
stuff
I'm
going
to
have
to
work
out
how
to
map
that
onto
quick.
M
On
quick,
I
mean
I
think
it
would
be
very
valuable
to
abstract
down
and
work
out
how
we
apply
quick,
like
transport
directly
to
web
services
and
get
rid
of
http,
because
HTTP
is
a
really
rotten
way
to
do
an
RPC
interface
there's
a
huge
amount
of
overhead
and
I'm
speaking
as
one
of
the
original
authors
of
HTTP
1.0
and
the
person
who
originally
made
it
possible
to
do
that.
It's
what
I
want
to
do
is
to
take
those
parts
of
HTTP
and
put
them
into
the
transport
ship.
N
There
is,
however,
the
Taps
working
group
which
is
working
on
abstract
transport
layer
interfaces
that
that
support
all
sorts
of
advanced
functionality
that
that
transports
like
quick,
provide
and
so
I
really
encourage
people
interested
in
a
more
generic
API
for
this
kind
of
stuff
to
to
take
their
energy.
There.
C
H
Yeah,
so
it's
not
just
HTTP,
we
have
DNS
over
quick,
which
is
defined
and
it's
a
thing
and-
and
you
might
say
well,
it's
natural
just
fall
back
to
TLS
there,
but
that
might
not
be
what
you
want
right.
You
might
want
to
fall
back.
The
DNS
over
HTTP,
there's
I
think
it's
very
easy
just
to
assume
that
we
can
build
a
batteries
included,
API
and
Library.
H
Those
things
could
exist,
they
could
be
powerful,
but
sometimes
they
behave
in
ways
that
you
don't
want
and
there's
no
hooks
or
configurability
to
change
things,
because
the
needs
of
your
application
are
different.
Presuming,
there's
always
going
to
be
a
TCP
equivalent
to
your
application
protocol
is
like
that's
just
a
guess.
We
don't
know
what
those
are
and
trying
to
anticipate
is
a
bit
a
bit
rubbish.
H
So
we
we
have
some
of
this
going
on
in
web
transport,
where
you
know
we.
We
have
different
ways
to
carry
this
thing.
Some
are
UDP
based
over
quick
and
they
want
to
use
the
service
of
unreliable
message
delivery,
and
so,
if
that
isn't
available,
falling
back
to
a
TCP
based
fallback
isn't
going
to
give
you
that
same
transport
feature.
Is
that
really
what
applications
want
or
would
they
prefer
to
give
up
and
fall
back
to
something
like
webrtc?
H
C
J
J
This
is
what
I
said
yesterday
in
my
talk
we
built
using
HTTP
because
it
was
an
excellent
vehicle
for
us
to
get
this
out
there,
but
the
work
that's
happening
now,
DNS
and
and
others,
and
and
also
mock,
which
is
also
happening
later
this
week.
All
of
this
are,
you
know,
work,
that's
going
on
and
trying
to
map
other
applications
and
and
protocols
on
top
of
quick.
J
Finally,
in
terms
of
the
network
itself,
we
know
for
a
fact
that
there's
a
small
percentage
of
the
network
that
doesn't
allow
UDP
or
you
know
when
with
experiments
we
found
that
quick,
doesn't
work
on
100
of
the
paths.
That's
also
an
application
Choice.
Your
application
can
absolutely
choose
to
say
that
it's
okay,
if
it
doesn't
work,
it
doesn't
work,
the
application
doesn't
work.
If
quick
doesn't
work,
you
don't
need
a
TCP
fallback
and
that's
all
up
to
the
application.
B
E
H
H
How
big
are
the
messages
that
you're
exchanging
you're,
going
to
find
some
way
to
get
not
deadlocked,
but
not
for
perform
as
well
as
you
might
do,
multi-streaming
in
general,
is,
is
a
big
issue
here,
you're
using
quote,
probably
to
make
use
of
the
multiple
streams
and
the
one
draft
I
read:
how
do
those
things
actually
interact
at
the
application?
Can
the
the
API
from
the
quick
layer
and
your
application
work
in
such
a
way,
for
example,
there's
no
Global
audience
of
streams
in
quick.
This
is
the
done
by
Design
as
a
performance
Improvement.
H
So
we've
already
had
a
line
blocking,
but
can
the
application
manage
out
of
order
delivery?
You
can
send
them
in
the
correct
order,
but
the
network
is
the
network
and
they
might
arrive
in
a
different
order
if
you're,
depending
on
specific
ordering
between
things
at
the
application,
lay
you'll
need
to
accommodate
that
in
terms
of
synchronization
or
checkpointing
or,
however,
you
might
need
a
design
if
you
have
more
Atomic
messages
like
DNS
over
quick,
where
these
things
are
very
independent.
It's
a
good
mapping,
just
stream
credits.
H
So
we
talk
about
flow
control,
but
the
number
of
streams
that
you
can
have
open
concurrently.
How
is
that
done?
You
have
the
initial
unidirectional
stream
limit.
I
talked
about
earlier.
Those
are
the
initial
limits,
but
as
soon
as
you've
kind
of
blown
those
limits,
you
need
to
keep
sending
stream
Max
stream
frames
to
keep
granting
credit,
so
I
think
something
we
found
in
the
early
interop
days.
Is
you
could
do
some
like
quick
tests
like
I
just
did
one
or
two
two
requests
and
response
interactions,
all
good?
Then
you
run
a
server.
H
Then
you
have
a
bug
where
you
forget
to
Grant
you
credits
and
you
eventually
get
to
a
point
of
kind
of
connection
saturation
and
nothing
can
happen.
Nobody
can
do
anything
any
ideal
timeouts
which
is
okay,
but
it's
probably
not
what
you
want
if
you're
running
a
Services
trying
to
run
and
run
and
run
foreign.
K
D
Yeah
I
was
going
to
add
that
I'm
happy
to
review
a
draft
on
bgp
I.
Think
it's
like
a
desolate
use
case.
Key
distribution
seems
like
a
problem,
but
yet
there
are
a
number
of
solutions.
I
think
I
think
it's
just
a
matter
of
looking
through
the
options
and
getting
a
review
from
the
quick
folks
and
the
transport
bits
and
then
maybe
getting
a
crypto
review
as
well
on
the
on
whatever
key
distribution
or
lack
there
have
you
choose
to
appreciate,
but
it
seems
very
doable.
G
K
K
So,
technically
speaking
when
we,
when
we
talk
about
what's
in
the
clearing
quick,
that's
that's
often
a
shorthand
that
we'll
use
to
sort
of
mean
that
well,
there's
no
genuine
cryptographic
protection
for
these
things,
we're
just
applying
what
is
effectively
AES
as
a
check
summing
mechanism
and
an
obfuscation
mechanism.
So,
what's
in
the
clear,
is
everything
that
will
be
in
the
clear
and
TLS
1.3
and
not
a
lot
more
honestly.
K
K
There's
all
the
debates
about
the
availability
of
Sni,
it's
potentially
the
case
that
you
could
still
put
Sni
in
the
clear
and
still
protect
all
of
those
those
values.
At
the
same
time,
that's
that's
something
that
I
think
a
lot
of
people.
Sort
of
don't
really
understand
about
the
value
of
ech
is
that
it
provides
the
ability
to
protect
all
of
that
sort
of
thing.
That's
coming
not
yet.
D
N
C
C
K
D
I
agree
with
Martin
and
cinnamon
I
can
attest
that
connection
migration
works
because
we've
default
enabled
it
and
then
quite
a
number
of
circumstances
and
and
so
like
it
does
actually
function
as
intended,
but
the
attack
surface,
it
seems
very
difficult
to
reason
about
and
I
I
am
I'm
sure
our
implementation
has
something
that
you
could
do.
That
would
at
least
be
annoying
to
a
user,
if
not
like
problematic
but
like
at
the
very
least.
It's
certainly
not
perfect.
D
J
If
you
want
to
that's
what
I
thought
he
said,
but
the
hackiest
part
of
the
protocol
I
think
that
I
don't
know
if
I
don't
know
how
to
think
about
hacking,
because
the
whole
protocol
is
is
hacky
in
a
certain
way.
If
you,
depending
on
how
you
look
at
it,
I
think
of
haki
as
clever
so
I
think
we
did
a
lot
of
things
that
were
clever
in
the
protocol,
but
I'd
say
that
the
things
that
are
that
feel
a
bit
fragile
are
both
connection
migration
for
sure,
but
also
the
handshake.
J
N
N
You
know
people
could
just
say
well
version.
One
is
fine
and
everything
else,
I,
don't
know
what
that
is.
I'm
gonna
drop
it
and
you
know
that's
something
that
we
have
to
think
a
little
harder
on
and
come
up
with
some
solutions
for
to
preserve
that
accessibility,
because
I
think,
eventually
you
can
get
to
a
place
where
we
get
really
big
performance
Improvement.
We
already
have
big
performance
proofs
on
TCP,
but
as
the
internet
changes,
quick
can
change
in
a
way
that
the
old
tools
can't.
C
C
Given
myself
the
last
word,
because
we
are
at
time,
I
would
like
to
thank
all
of
the
presenters
for
their
presentations
and
for
the
discussion
and
all
of
our
audience
for
joining
us
here
at
7
30
in
the
morning.
Your
dedication
to
the
internet
is
much
appreciated.
Please
enjoy
the
rest
of
your
week
and
see
you
around
thanks
a
lot.