Internet Engineering Task Force IETF 115, 6 Nov 2022

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From YouTube: IETF115-HOTRFC-20221106-1800

Description

HOTRFC meeting session at IETF115
2022/11/06 1800

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/115/proceedings/

A

Thank you, you've never gone back and looked at the uh you never come back and looked at the.

B

uh Tapes from any of the ones I've Done, Right.

B

B

B

B

You're welcome.

B

um And I'm, trying to figure out uh I, need to go. I need to go, find where I am and media code.

B

Just need to grab a.

B

Yeah yeah, you know I mean I, I, I know where to look I just need to go there. Oh.

A

Yeah, it's pretty great well, I mean last time, 30 minutes.

B

Only 20 of it was the people in the room that still Jesus Louise.

B

A

Yeah make this week we've got: um we've got some uh promote presenters.

A

B

B

I wasn't sure I was going to be um so um hi everybody um we're just uh getting ready to get started here and I think we're ready to get started and I think everybody has come over from uh the uh welcome perception. uh I am Spencer Dawkins. This is the lovely Alexa Morris um and we are joined in Spirit by uh Liz Flynn, also of the Secretariat, uh who was expecting to be here right up until she was not feeling well and is up resting in her room. So um please keep our thoughts as well.

B

um You do next slide.

B

Okay, this is the first note. This is the first session of this ITF meeting, so uh there are will be some newcomers who have not seen the note well at the beginning of every session, and there will be some who haven't seen it in four months and haven't thought about it. uh This is basically covering the obligations of a uh someone who's contributing to the ietf, which is what um 100 RC topics are doing.

B

So please keep an eye on that as you uh as you participate, whether you're speaking or whether you're telling people where to find you after the meeting.

B

So um in person participants please um sign in using the meat Echo, probably the like client. uh This does the blue sheets and uh please wear masks unless you're actively speaking at the microphone and if you're, using the full thing. Please keep your audio and uh slides off if you're, not using the on-site version and use masks, as we say, less actively.

B

Speaking at the microphone uh note, participants, please make sure your audio and slides are off unless you are sharing or presenting during a session and the use of a headset is strongly recommended and that's why please just to put up some resources for ITF 115 in London. Welcome back to London and um please especially, keep an eye on the. uh If you need technical assistance, see the reporting issues page.

A

That's also the trumpet moving travel desk, yeah.

B

Yeah, okay, yeah yeah I I used that this afternoon, um ground rules are that you are, we are doing requests for conversation here. uh It's a good way to find people at the ITF to talk to for various reasons, and we don't actually uh gate people. What those reasons are uh presenters will tell you about that. uh Each person gets four minutes from go to. Please applaud uh at four minutes. We will start uploading, we'll practice that on the next slide, uh when you hear Applause, please hand the microphone over, we don't do questions here.

B

Like you said, each person is providing follow-up info. In-Person attendees can follow in-person presenters to the bar, of course, um and just so you can follow along uh we're using the data tracker for all slides. So we will let the uh conversations begin and.

B

B

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So this is the good job, so I will be. I will be running a timer uh and um at four minutes in turn yourselves carefully at four minutes in we will all start to clap, but that the person has finished speaking or not. um If they finish early, you get you.

A

Get to applaud sooner.

B

Okay, right, okay, so first Speaker uh Mark is not able to be with us here tonight. uh He has uh uploaded slides and uh we just kind of pass through those real quickly here um see I thought this looks really interesting and.

B

B

Finding my speech, timing, app, which I only use at ITF meetings.

C

D

You timing, I'll start now: yeah I'm, Phil, hi Phil. So next slide, please. uh So you might have seen this tweet go out in the Tweeter verse uh that uh Burning Down The twitterverse might be an accelerant to creating X the everything app, and that had me thinking, because in the comments next slide, please one of the comments was well.

D

If you want to deliver an end-to-end secure everything app in 2023, you better have started five years ago, I thought yeah, who has been writing and everything at for five years now next slide. So the mesh was designed I've been talking about this here. For you know, we had that buff in Singapore I've been mentioning. Yes, it's designed to do end-to-end, secure, messaging, key management and so on.

D

One thing that I never mentioned next slide is that the original use case that motivated all of this was end-to-end Secure social media I wanted to have something like Facebook or Twitter, except that I wanted all my content to be encrypted so that whoever was hosting that Service couldn't read it by end-to-end. Secure I mean the the administrator of the website cannot read the content. End to end, in my view, is from my eyeballs to whoever wrote so it was always in the plan and so I pulled out that next slide.

D

Please and so yeah I've got a draft out. There uh describes how to use the mesh to build a complete Communications infrastructure, and actually there isn't there very much extra work to do social media on top of synchronous messaging asynchronous. Isn't that much of a big deal, uh video just use webrtc, that's already done all the heavy lifting to do that part of the communication next slide. So so what do I mean by an open social media? What I mean is I own?

D

My account I control it and I can change, take it from one service provider to another without switching costs, without losing all my followers, without losing all that context that I've invested that belongs to me. Not my publisher and I. Want you to be able to choose curators who are choosing content for them. Not have somebody with an algorithm designed to make me engage by filling my feed with fascism.

D

I want a social media that isn't a single person's point of view and especially not when that single person can't think of a more interesting place to go and VR than his office.

D

I want a Multiverse, so next slide so I'm building this stuff uh and of course what people will be saying is Well, isn't Mastodon doing something like that. Well, yes, it is but they're not using cryptography, not yet at any rate, if I can take my stuff and add it to the federal verse, so it becomes the encrypted part of fediverse. That's great to me. We've got all that encrypted stuff in the black Network and there's also the red Network. You can visit for the things that don't need to be uh private next slide.

D

So the big question here is: what do we call it and I think I've already got the name. You know everything, and you know it might be the co Catalyst to building the everything. So if you're interested in building a social media, that is for the people and not for the billionaires, uh please come and talk to me. I've got a draft out there, uh everything and that shows how you don't need a lot of mechanism to build something that is useful and matters.

B

Next, up after Roland is, um is Jeffrey.

E

Yeah hi, my name is Roland and I'd like to introduce Kira, which is a scalable ID based routing architecture, special specially designed for control planes and for control planes. Connectivity is really important, so the first goal is to uphold the connectivity, while the second goal is to be also route efficient and we want to provide a highly resilient control. Plane.

E

Scalability was one objective, and here we targeted at hundred thousands of nodes which could be present at a single domain. um We route on node IDs, so there's no natively in that sense. uh So we have no idea to locator mapping, for example, and the scalability is achieved by having very small routing tables which scale algorithmically with a number of nodes, um and every node ID has an Associated path. Vector, which stores the route. The routes in the routing table actually are shortest path.

E

Routes, and one specialty of the solution is that we have a selectable memory stretch trade-off per node.

E

uh The whole solution is uh designed to be zero touch, so no configuration is required, so also no configuration mistake can take your control plane down.

E

um It also works well on various topologies out of the box, so no special versions for data center topologies, which are denser than other, sparse or topologies, and so on required, which we call topological versatility. It is Loop free, even during convergence, it uses path IDs as labels, and it's forwarding tier in some kind of label, switching and so out of the box. It provides zero com. Ipv6 connectivity next slide, please.

E

So uh what else did we do? uh We created also a special end system modes because end systems don't route, so they don't need routing updates and so on. So we can reduce the overhead.

E

um It also supports multi-path, routing and forwarding it has a built-in DHT, which is a key value, store on a distributed Manner and also name or service. Lookups can be done with the help of the DHT or resource Discovery, and recently we also proposed a topology very efficient and scalable topology Discovery scheme based on that key resolution. So Kira provides highly scalable resilient, Euro control, plane connectivity and we think that is important for future networks because they are getting more complex.

E

So if you want to know more, there's no draft out yet we've tried or we want to get feedback on whether people find this interesting to standardize. We think yes, but we want to hear your feedback so there's a link to the paper and I have two presentation schedules at this ITF meeting, one um in the routing area working group meeting on Thursday and also in the anima working group, which is related to the autonomous control plates. Thanks.

B

So we have Jeffrey come here and next step after that is Rolf.

F

Right yeah, the next one.

A

F

So uh if I, a mobile user print uh is responsible for the data traffic between the user equipment or your iPhone and Data Network, it includes oh.

F

This is supposed to be.

F

Animation but I guess it okay anyway, um so you have those uh ran elements r-u-d-u-c-u and then you have. uh Those are the for the uh Wireless part, and then you have the UPF. It's like a router or a broad Broadband can Network Gateway and the UPF is connected to a Data Network with UPF being distributed nowadays for Edge Computing purposes, now the UPF, and then it also means that data networks are also being distributed, and that means they are implemented as a VPN. So you have the p.

F

Is there and so the CEUs are the genobi centralized units? Now the CU UPF and P is they are all co-located at the same Edge data center? Still they are separate entities, so the between the CEO and UPF. You have the user traffic encapsulated into the in the gtpu tunnel, even if the UPF and CEO are running on the same server.

F

So the idea is uh what we combine: those CU, UPF and PE function into a single entity which we call the end up here. Now you basically have a router with wireless interfaces and wired connector interfaces and has the vpnp functionality next slide. Please.

F

So this model of a router or switch with wireless and wired connections.

F

Now the wireless Technologies is only responsible for the wireless access just like that triple E technology for ethernet connection, for a router and after that everything else is ietf IEEE, while and Technologies with the routing and switching and all the features. Vpn EVP and whatever they're already in the Wildland world can be applied to the wireless as well as as well. No changes next slide.

F

The advantage of this is that we no longer required as a tunnel, so it can simplified signaling, optimized data plane and because we now have a unified architecture. Many special 5G features procedures. Dino are no longer needed. You basically have a router and switch with wireless and wired connections.

F

So this seems to be a natural evolution to People Like Us, who are familiar with iitf Wildland Technologies, but it's a big paradigm shift on 3gp side and the work would have to be done in 3gpp and not in IHF.

F

But what we have been trying to do here in ITF is to talk to people, especially the mobile operators, to talk to their attack Architects to get their support. First, Jeffrey.

A

You're getting real close.

F

Okay, if they, if we get that support, then we can bring this to 3gpp for further discussion.

A

A

G

I'm Spencer, can you hear me.

G

Expensive, you hear me that is correct. Can you hear me.

B

Yes, yes very well,.

G

G

Yeah all right, my name is Raul and I've been doing this work together with Valentin, where he did most of the heavy lifting and together we want to supercharge trace route and I'm going to take the next three and a half minutes to explain to you what we mean by that.

G

So today, when you want to assess the state of the network or when something goes wrong, and you want to figure out what is going wrong, then the ITF has defined quite an extensive set of OEM mechanisms that help you with this. So, for example, we have young netconf and rest conf, and that lets you well, of course, configure um your boxes, but it also lets you monitor everything related to your boxes, but it's boxes that are under your control.

G

Obviously, and in addition and more recently, we have things like in c2oim or ioim, and there you add data or information to your data packets and that lets you measure everything that is related to your segment of a path so that segment of a path that is under your control and with a bunch of other things like ipfix to export flow level, information from a router. We have a bunch of mechanisms that have been defined by the ietf, but they all have in common that you have to be on in control of those boxes.

G

You have to be operating those boxes and the question is what about the public internet, so the places on the internet that you are not in control of and there you basically have two tools available. One is Ping and ping gives you very little information, so you have interface reachability. You know that interface is reachable and it gives you a round trip time estimation with it, but that's all the information ping gives you and then, on the other hand, you have trace route and trace route is more expressive.

G

It gives you router level information, so it basically lists or enumerates all the routers from you towards the destination on the public internet, and it gives you round trip time estimations for every hop and the final destination, and what we would like to do is we would like to make trace route better in the sense that we also want to estimate the reverse path, because today's internet is highly asymmetric. That means the forward path and the the return path are typically not the same, and we would like to basically illuminate this.

G

This reverse path using a better trace route. Next right, so we have published an internet draft in area and in The, Orange Box. You see the link towards that draft and we would like you to to actually read the document and then join the discussion in in the area. We also have implemented we like running code. Obviously so we have implemented reverse trace route, and we would like you if you could um host a reverse trace route endpoint.

G

It's a ebpf, a small ebpf program that you can run on any Linux box and it would offer reverse trace route to clients. So if you don't want to do that, you could also help by running the client and send us the output, because we would like to assess how good this implementation is. What the properties of the implementation are, what we see on the public internet so running the tool would be very helpful to us and remember: the internet is for the end user. That's at least what RFC 8890 says and shows this works.

G

So this is for people and organizations that um don't necessarily run the infrastructure, but they have something that is running in the cloud and they would like to measure um path quality from their point of the network um to another Point um over the public internet or for organizations that consume Services of the public internet. So for everybody that is not running um the internet or running parts of the internet, so there's a website. You can look at there's. Clearly the draft.

G

You can look at the GitHub if you go there, it's empty at this point in time. We're still fixing a couple of things and and cleaning up the code, but in a couple of days we are hopeful that it's going to be um there, but um if you would like to help us run reverse trace route, please send me an email.

G

B

I'm looking for uh Andrew Camlin Andrew kampling, are you with us? ah Yes, excellent.

B

H

Yep, let's do it all right good evening? Everyone um I'm here today to talk to you about the uh encrypted client, hello um and specifically deployment considerations uh associated with uh uh encrypted client ho or ech. There's a number of us that have been working on a draft uh covering this topic.

H

um uh Arno uh tadai from broadcom should be around later on this evening. His flight hasn't landed yet so anyone's interested uh either speak to me or speak to her, though, through this week slide, please a very brief bit of context. Ech is a mechanism in the TLs protocol. That's been added to encrypt the client Hello message, um which has previously been uh in plain text.

H

um It builds on the previous encrypted Sni proposal. It is like a superset of that within the TLs working group and, if you're interested, uh to see more detail about ech I've, put a link to the uh the relevant draft which, when I last checked, was at draft 15, um it is being continuously updated next libraries.

H

uh The reason we're interested uh in this topic um is uh by encrypting that sort of plain text Data um that does have implications for end users uh um and we're keen to uh make sure that's understood so uh RC 7258 uh sort of recognizes that making networks unmanageable um is not an acceptable outcome.

H

um Rfc uh 8404 looks at uh security network operations and their practices that could be impacted by the move to uh end-to-end encryption, um and uh it's I think perhaps not widely understood that the Sni data is widely used by on path uh security actors. So it does have quite significant implications for a number of different uh sort of uh groups of users, particularly so Enterprise and consumer next slide.

H

Please um rc8744, which looks at the need for encrypting uh Sni um and now, if you didn't really uh consider insufficient depth of the implications, um I won't go through the detail on the slide in the interest of time. What we're aiming to do as a group is to fix that and actually write a draft which covers insufficient detail, what the implications are for end users and what actions they may need to take next slide. Please.

H

So with that in mind, if that's of interest to you for in any reason, uh we'll be uploading a draft, um hopefully as soon as tomorrow, uh when data tracker reopens, which will have uh the latest sort of uh thinking uh it's by no means complete, yet we're certainly looking for people to add to uh the text. So if this subjects of interest to you, please look at the draft and, more importantly, we have a side meeting tomorrow evening at uh 7 P.M local time uh in Richmond six.

H

So again, if this is of interest to you, please come along to that. uh If you're attending the session remotely, uh you can join us via Zoom um the links on the screen and also in the side meeting agenda. So um please come along and uh contribute to the discussion and that's it. Thank you.

B

So we've got uh Daniel petryapp and John border after him.

B

And I'm actually I'm actually running a timer here that um you can look with the you can look with the uh one of the changes color all.

C

Right sounds good by the way: I I'm Thomas I'm, not nearly as nice as Dan, so I'll be clear about that, and but we're here to tell you about vcons next slide, please so um in my day, job I'm, the CTO of a company that talks to a lot of people about a million every year and um I'm charged with taking care of their data, as if it were my company's data, but I can't and so I'm here today to talk about vcons um and I want to talk about uh why this is important, because this is the intersection between two really important things: customer data, privacy and machine learning and artificial intelligence, and it's my job as a CTO of my little company to make sure that we honor our customers and return to our shareholders.

C

Abcon is a construction that allows me to understand. What's exactly inside a conversation, so I can use it appropriately. I can share it appropriately. I know what I shared and when a customer asks me. Could you please delete my data? I can because I know what data I have next, please so the vcon has four parts to it. The first part is obvious: it's the conversation, it's the video, it's the audio, it's the chat transcript. Maybe it's a lot of those as a person has gone through a channel. That's the obvious part.

C

The second part, though, is the parties who actually had the conversation identified as much as you possibly can we're living in a world where two things are important: anonymity and identity. Sometimes it's really important to know who said it, and sometimes it's important not to know who said it.

C

The two lost parts of a v con are the analysis. What does it mean? What are the semantics around it? What are the things that? Let me know that? Oh this is full of profanity, or this is about a Ford Camaro or the customer was angry or my agent was rude.

C

That's part of the conversation, as is the context, the attachments the last part. What are we talking about in my company? It would be the lead and your company might be the PowerPoint presentation next.

C

So this really solves a lot of practical problems, but the most, but the most important one is the responsibility problem that I'm being asked to have responsibility for data and I. Don't know what it is and more than that, if we standardize the format of what a conversation looks like, then we can ask questions like why? Didn't you authenticate that you can ask questions? We can interrogate it because there's facts to be interrogated and then I think this is the iitf's job uh this act, this vcon idea came out of a different group.

C

We represent. You know a couple dozen people who think this is a great idea and the programmable communication space. But the issue is that we live in a very siled world. My little company has five communication systems.

C

Five- and you know I I- understand that there are very large vendors who want to do it all for you, but I can't think of a single one who is doing it all for a single company, because the biggest voice company doesn't do chat, doesn't do video chat so I can't my data engineering of conversations is really limited because I don't have a standard by which I can interchange data validate it anything next, please so for more information we have a mailing list.

C

We just put in the draft, um but maybe a great place to start is the white paper that was um written by a half a dozen people from the communications industry. To tell you how important this problem is to solve. um This is an open source project. This is an open source idea. We are not looking uh to we're looking to solve this for every person and I think you as people should be interested in this, um and so uh we we're here right now.

C

We have a dispatch meeting tomorrow at 9 30., if you're interested in in privacy, if you're interested in machine learning, please be there and please support us um and then listen uh if, if you're on a Thursday night, I'm gonna need a drink, another need someone to have a drink with me and we're having a birds of a feather session at the very same time. So if I, were you I'd come board? Thank you very much.

B

So we've got uh John and then we've got uh Ken McMillan uh after John and.

B

Resetting and starting okay.

I

um I'm here to advertise a side meeting for the encrypted transport over satellite um group. It's it's an um non-worker group mailing list. Next, please!

I

um Basically, we started it to talk about the transport protocol being encrypted in particular, came out with quick, because on geosatellites is traditional use, performance enhancing proxies, which operates the transport layer. You can't do that with quick. That's where we started the discussion.

I

um We've actually expanded since then um to talk about Leo topics with related to routing and all kinds of stuff, so that it's basically now more of a sort of a general satellite list.

I

The mailing list is up there and you can subscribe to that link next page. So this is the agenda for or we have a set of presentations at the side meeting. um You know a couple: some topics about high bdp networks, I think mostly focus on TCP but I'm, not sure.

I

um Then we have a quick nfpc presentation, um then they're reducing acknowledgments um in iitf, quick presentation, and then we just added a bbr um for quick over Geo presentations. So the focus as you can see on this particular intercept, meaning is Geo, um so the meetings Wednesday at 11 45 in Richmond six we'd like to see you there, but we also have remote participation set up and again. If you need more information, you can email me or email the other set list. That's it.

B

Excellent, um so we've got Ken.

J

Okay, thank you and I'm going to be talking about some some stuff. That's giant work with Leno artzook. uh So what I like to do in this short talk is make a case that formal specifications can be can provide benefits in the ietf process. Next slide, please so bioformal specification. What I mean is just some unambiguous mathematical description of a system usually described at some interface and that can be either represented in logic or it might be represented in some more familiar form like an abstract programming language.

J

So there's an obvious benefit to writing specifications in that way, which is we have then unambiguous documentation that can be used by both implementers. You know and users who are building on top of a given interface, so that specification acts as an interface contract, but a less obvious benefit is that we can do much more rigorous testing when we have formal specifications.

J

Not only can we do runtime monitoring to make sure that we're conforming to the spec, but we can, for example, automatically generate more rigorous unit tests for the different roles in our protocol in a way that can expose errors that we don't see otherwise and, of course, find.

J

Finally, we can do formal proof with a formal specification, and that is a use- and it's often very useful- to think of high-level properties that we want to prove, but we can get a lot out of formal specifications without doing verification all the way down to the implementation next slide, please.

J

So as an example, we worked on a formal specification of the quick transport protocol where we were using a language called Ivy that looks like an abstract programming language to do a wire specification of quick, and this was at a level of detail that was sufficient- that the specification itself could interact directly with the clients and servers, and we used it to automatically generate tests for compliance for a bunch of servers and clients that were being developed and what we found was we exposed a lot of errors that didn't come out in interoperability testing a lot of those were compliance errors where we either misinterpreted the spec.

J

You know or the implementer did, or there was an ambiguity in the spec and a lot where even low-level code crashes that just weren't exposed by uh by testing. So a lot of those errors in turn were potentially exploitable. For example, we found a case where you could exploit um the flow control mechanism in quick in order to read arbitrary memory out of the server or a case where you could have a denial of service that exploited the client migration feature of quick next slide.

J

Please so one of the takeaways from this, then, is that interoperability testing isn't really enough because it doesn't tell us whether the implementations are really compliant to the RFC, and that can give us a lot of issues, especially security issues when we get non-compliant implementations out in the wild. This happened, for example, with downgrade attacks in SSO. Formal specification could be part of that solution because it allows us to find out before things get in the wild, whether they're really compliant. So there's a lot of research left to do here.

J

There are hard trade-offs between readability of the specs testing issues, formal proof and so on. But what we're mainly interested here is try to understand how formal specifications can be usefully and practically integrated into the ietf process, and if you're interested in this topic, there's a meeting coming on up on Thursday of the usable, formal methods, research group or please contact us directly, and we love to to hear from you. Thank you.

B

So the next person that's on our list is, uh is uh Rich. uh Kulowak and I am not seeing him in Meet Echo. He was expected to be remote. He's lost power at his house twice in two days. He let us know that he was trying to join using uh the neighbors bandwidth, but he said web pages were painful, so he didn't think he could get in on um on meat Echo and, if he's not, if he's not here, it's not for lack of trying.

B

uh His slides are uploaded to the um Santa Tracker and you know available here. uh So if this looks like an interesting topic to you, please please follow up with Rich. uh That brings us to uh Sam Hurst, and next up is uh Ignacio.

K

Hi I'm Sam Hurst, I uh I'm, a project r d engineer with BBC research and development, uh looking mainly at media streaming uh and uh I'd like to touch it about my little project, which is uh trying to run set over quick transport. So next slide please.

K

uh So it is just a mapping of uh session initialization Pro sorry session initiation protocol over quick transport very much inspired by HTTP 3's mapping, given that sip is quite close to http 1.1, uh the original idea came from uh some work. I did on trying to run RTP over quick, but one of the problems I was having was okay. Well, I can send media, but how do I negotiate that in a nice way?

K

um And specifically when uh the use case I was looking at, which is, there is a reporter in a field trying to get some uh media back, so we can put it on the news. uh Maybe they are on a connection. They don't particularly trust. We want just one single encrypted tunnel, so quick looked quite nice for that.

K

um The idea of sending live media over quick is a very active topic. So there's obviously the New Media of a quick working group. There's stuff in avt core as well uh talking about this. uh So yes, we've been looking at the possibility of reusing uh system magnetics to do control metadata for that next slide. Please uh so, like I say it's inspired by HTTP 3, um so I've got data frames in there for carrying uh the Sip requests.

K

uh Headers are using keypad compression, um specifically just so that we can reuse a lot of the existing HTTP 3 Stacks, so it should be hopefully easier to implement.

K

uh So, like I said before, the intention is to allow for media sessions to use the same quick transport connection, to do the media and all of the control uh and specifically the design that I've come up with uh decouples the quick client and the quick server from the user agent client and the user agent server in zip, but I've also kept unidirectional unidirectional stream types and datagrams available for the media transport next slide, please.

K

uh So the internet is now actually up on data tracker I managed to do that on Avanti, train Wi-Fi, amazingly on the way down uh this morning. uh So please do go and have a look at that. If you're interested happy accept any and all feedback, but I'm, also specifically looking for what Avenue is the best place to continue this work? Is this something for sip core? Is there something for avt core, or is this something that should be living in mock?

K

um So that's everything from me. Thank you very much for listening.

B

So uh we should have Iglesia and uh foreign.

L

From the University Queen Mary of London and I have a question for you, which is: uh how is the idea of doing and that's what I've been trying to analyze with some colleagues slide? Please, and we have been crunching and looking into the emails, the drafts, the rfcs, how long it takes and many other details, and what we find is that the conversation seems to be increasingly complex. It seems to be increasingly harder to publish, and it seems like there is an influential minority that is growing increasingly relevant inside of the ITF uh next slide.

L

Please, and if this sounds interesting, we have been working together with colleagues from the University of Glasgow and we have already published some papers which have much more details, and this is part of a broader project called so the stream next slide. Please, and as a part of this, we're also trying to create tools that might help the community in particular. Right now, we are developing a tool for a supporting crossover review.

L

uh If you scan that QR code, that will bring you to the website and the tool is there and we are trying to find good matches between drops and reviewers, and we do this by using a combination of our NLP tools and social network analysis. uh If this sounds interesting, please help us. We need a little bit of information to Chrome truth. The findings that we have.

L

We are also preparing a few other things, to gather more information like a survey on uh like the survey that I'm saying, and if this in general sounds interesting and sounds like something that you think that more people should be doing. We have a side meeting uh with the idea of preparing a research group called rasp research on internet standards, processes, and that will happen on Thursday and everybody is welcome to join. Thank you very much.

B

And next speaker is uh uh Hans Dieter and I. I wanted to congratulate uh Ignacio, because this is the first lrc talk, I've seen where you actually tried to put people to work. While you were talking.

B

M

Thank you. My name is I work at the CWI in Leiden in the Netherlands. In the past couple of years, I've completed the research project supported by the Next Generation internet initiative.

M

Next slide, please, and during this research project we were basically studying synchronization over over the Internet, how you can synchronize components and we made a kind of a discovery, or at least we founded. We found an ID that we we thought was very interesting to to share. So that's what I want to do right here. uh You know probably Shannon's information, Theory right. This uh basic idea of what information theory is you could code and decode and then you can use basically bits to encode any kind of message that you want.

M

um But the problem with this notion is that this is a Time, insensitive notion. Whenever you encode it, this is done statically. You don't regard the moment when you encode it or the moment that you decoded, and so it seems that this capacity of a channel measured in bits per second is sufficient. Next slide, please, uh but it turns out that you can introduce a so-called site, Channel and also Shannon was aware of this ID, but this is less wide widely known.

M

uh What the idea of a side channel in in this case time is, is that if you have two uh processes that are synchronized in time, so that they have a clock running at the same speed, then you can send a signal. Just a single signal and the moment of reception is then significant and whenever you synchronize these machines that you can send just with a single signal, more information than is present within the signal.

M

And so then we have basically ethereum, which is that the effective capacity is higher than the capacity and now, an important new measure that you have to also consider is that of Jitter, which is unpredictable variation in the delay. Whenever you communicate next slide, please so for based on this Insight, we basically want to develop a new Internet Protocol called TMP standing for time modulation protocol.

M

We are really in the research stage right now, and it would be really nice to get into contact with more people Hazard, for instance, to collaborate on prototypes, but also for working on better models for predicting delays. Let me end with what are the potential benefits of using this protocol. There is a potential increase of effective capacity, which might be interesting whenever you want to send more data than whatever is metered on links and very important for end users. Application is that you could increase confidentiality by hiding data in time. uh Thank you very much.

B

So I've got uh Dan Sexton uh coming up next and then uh Travis. uh You will be our uh last requester for conversation.

N

Can you hear me okay, thank.

A

N

Thank you uh so hello, everyone. This is my first uh time attending I, ietf uh and I come with a question, a a challenge, which is, is privacy preserving web filtering possible? If I can have the next slide, please foreign work at the iwf, we're a charity in the UK and we work to find a remove child sexual abuse material from the internet.

N

A really crucial part of that work has been providing data to Industry, to enable detection blocking filtering of known content um by platforms, isps and filters as Internet standards have developed and encryption has become more commonplace. Those methods have become less effective. It's been harder to detect, it's been hard to to block, so the challenge really is uh it can legitimate legal web filtering coexist with secure and private internet can advance as an encryption and privacy enhancing Technologies be used to filter, harmful web content without compromising user privacy for the next slide, please.

N

uh So what I'm here to do is to to try to engage with the community um to talk about the issue to find out about any existing work that might already be going on in this space um and or similar Technologies privacy enhancing technologies that were used in other areas that might be uh made to work with um web filtering I have a public side meeting on Tuesday at 3 30 in Richmond, six and I would encourage anyone that is interested in the topic or might be able to post some challenges or potential solutions that might develop into maybe a future proposal or a standard implementation, um so very welcome if people are able to make it to the public side meeting or to contact me.

N

Otherwise. um Thank you very much Spencer. That's everything. I had to say today, foreign.

B

Travis to the stand.

O

All right, I'm, uh Travis I'm here on behalf of the spec core team for Matrix, um not a lot of time, but a lot of information, so I am going to speedrun this. Please try and find me afterwards or just message us on the uh Mimi mailing list. If I can get the next slide please, uh so there are three major questions that I would like to sort of cover. uh First, what is Mimi? uh Why are we doing this?

O

uh How does it affect us as Matrix and sort of where are we at currently, if I can get the next side uh so yeah? What is Mimi next slide? Please uh Mimi is the more instant message, interoperability working group currently here at the ietf.

O

uh They are being or they're having a buff on Wednesday to actually form themselves uh into a proper working group, and it's created a lot of an interest for the eu's digital markets, act or dma, so in that dma, Gatekeepers or large Messengers are required to uh interop with each other, as well as other sort of Messengers in the space as Matrix. We think this is a good thing, because Matrix is an interoperable open standard for security, centralized communication and you might see where this is going if I can get the next slide.

O

Please uh So, currently Gatekeepers kind of look like this today, where you have, uh you know, say: WhatsApp and Instagram they're able to communicate with each other and then Twitter's kind of off to its side, and there are others, of course, so uh with the next slide, um the dma kind of wants something like this, where you just apply magic in the middle and then they're able to talk to each other uh next slide. Please.

O

uh The trick, though, is that with encryption uh maintained the entire way through so because WhatsApp supports encryption, uh all three would need to support encryption and anybody else sort of in that conversation. So next slide please. uh So how would we do that next slide with Matrix next slide, um so with Matrix use for interoperability? You convert everything to a home server, at least on this sort of public internet front, so they're able to communicate with each other uh and briefly uh next slide.

O

uh These are the sorts of bits that we'll need. So it's just the Federation API from Matrix extensible events, that's just the format that we sent over the wire and then a governance process to actually make sure that Matrix can be properly Incorporated. uh We're gonna skip the next three slides.

O

uh These are just the bits uh the slides are up on there uh next slide, please. um So where are we currently at um next slide?

O

uh This is the rough timeline, so Matrix was created back in 2014., we're currently November 22, where maybe becomes a working group, and we have a lot of conversations ahead of us and we're hoping that uh you know Matrix will be sort of adopted eventually and that's kind of our goal here. uh Next slide, please!

O

uh So how can you help next slide? Just let us know uh what do you think? uh How can we actually make this kind of work in a governance process uh that sort of stuff if you're on Matrix? That's the room to sort of talk to, uh if not otherwise, just come talk to me after or um yeah on the mailing list, uh but that's all just next slide. Please.

B

So this brings us to the end right. Yes, this brings us to the end of our uh time together at ietf, 115.

B

um I've asked for I'd ask for you to uh think about maybe three things as you're on your way to the bar this week.

B

um First, let people know what you've thought about this format and whether whether it seemed helpful to you or not, um we got one request to uh present about uh 40 minutes before the social started and we were able to. We were able to do that thanks to a lot of assistance from the Secretariat. So please I tell people what you uh appreciate about them.

B

Also um anybody can talk at HUD RFC if you think that it would be interesting for you to talk about ideas you have uh and that this seems to be a helpful place, be thinking about that we're actually on the agenda on a ongoing basis now, uh and uh so you can be thinking about uh what to send in and expect that there'll be a call for president uh president proposals and uh I think the third thing is, if this seems helpful to you and you'd like to help.

B

um Please let me please let us me or the uh at RFC uh team, at Pottery at ietf.org and uh we'll see we'll see what we can work out. Thank you all for coming and uh enjoy the rest of your ietf week and please do the right thing.