Internet Engineering Task Force Interim Meetings, 3 Jan 2023

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From YouTube: IETF-LPWAN-20230103-1500

Description

LPWAN meeting session at IETF
2023/01/03 1500

https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting//proceedings/

A

Thank you, hello. um As usual, we're gonna wait a few more minutes. We already know that Alexander will not join because he's sick and uh Eric thinker is in PTO till tomorrow. So we'll have a radio Staten, Island Sergio said that probably won't come either.

A

Okay, let's start, uh can you please confirm that you can hear me hello, hello,.

A

Okay, Happy New, Year, I, hope 2023 doesn't get even worse than 2022 and wish you the best, and yes, all the things that you you expect and want for this year. You know all the all the good rfcs that you you'd love to publish and all the nice things okay.

A

um So for today, so this is a usual ITF meeting, so the the ITF not well applies, in particular um the the patent and participation rules in BCP 79. If you're not fully aware of them, which I would be very, very surprised, then uh please join me or look at PCP 79 and then on. The harassment could have conducted Etc all apply and you're very well used to those things.

A

So for today sorry for the we will be um there's a problem with the slides oops they're, not the ones I expected.

A

Here this one is correct, so for some reason the agenda is, is crude.

A

um I've touched the wrong slide, but the agenda for today is pretty much the the discussion on the status of the draft and then the recharge rate.

A

um So what group status has not changed since the ietf, so we we expect to publish the two shakeover and the iot and Chicago Fox draft soon and then, as you know, there is also the um dependent draft from the main sheet document which works, which provides the compound acknowledgment system and we'll discuss a little bit about where that one is as well. So the news are very, very good.

A

um There are two rfcs waiting uh to be finalized in the RFC editor queue and you learned is even in um JFC editor, edit State, meaning that they are working on it. So I guess you will tell us that that you're talking to the rrc editor because that's what's that's what should happen now into the young data model should fully suit very soon and then surgery is not with us today, but the Chicago Fox are, as there has been a lot of activity on the Chicago, Fox and I'm, saying males every day.

A

So I guess we're very, very soon uh done with uh the IST discussion and this one may be cute to the RFC editor as well. All this tells us that we are very, very well uh advanced in our current Charter and it's time to reach out to also the first draft in this list. The compound Act.

A

um There were some some commands um during the sheepad review on the young model and Sergio's answer to Alex. So Alex is not with us, but um he's working with with Sergio on fixing them and then we'll press the button.

A

So that's a summary of the status copper Dax is, is Under Shepherd.

A

And so we we started the discussion on on retouching at the ietf and they will present you on the next slide. What the text now the purpose text is about. So we wanted to. You know, shake our Foos where foods are not necessarily uh lp1 classical lp1 types of networks like over IPO or PPP, um even a very ethernet, and there is this math link that Bob moskovic has been discussing to connect to um drones and robot devices.

A

um There was um a description on using fact as an alternate reliability method for uh for the fragments, because today either we don't acknowledge at all, or we have acknowledgment New York mechanism, the different variations of hierarchy, mechanisms and, and what we don't have is a fact mechanism, where we don't have a RQ, but at least we can improve the reliability and that would be a very good fit for some lp1 networks, including Sig flux.

A

By the way, um then we discussed that in some cases like over PPP over IP, um we don't have an implicit indication of what the shake session is, and so that's probably a need for a Chic header that that has to be discussed. You know where it it sits, but uh that would basically indicate in which uh succession between two peers, this particular sheet packet, belongs to.

A

uh Then there was Lauren's point about conf and if there can be optimization of what we're doing it was found I guess that's contour and content you're there with Dominic. uh It was found that the way we did things was not necessarily optimized, and so maybe there is stuff to be done there and then.

A

uh Point again on securing the Sheikh negotiation and he was telling us at the iitf meeting that there were only two ways of doing it, so we should pick one and um then the session set up. If we have this this chicken or the private and is there is something to to set up like a like a TCP, Cincinnati or anything to to basically say hey we're starting this new session between those two peers.

A

uh There are the rules that need to be installed and then the two peers must agree that they work on the same rules. Otherwise there will be some issues. So all those are items that we discussed on the ITF uh for Rich, offering items, and with this we prepared some text.

A

um The first piece of text this this slide here um speaks about the general context. Usually I was used actually to see some text like that at the introduction of a charter.

A

What I got from Eric is that this is getting out of fashion and so having this introduction, mostly When, You Reach Out train, is not necessarily needed. So I keep that text. You know, as some header for an email but I would expect not to sit in the actual Charter. Now, if you have any comment on it, it's still useful. So maybe um I would leave you a little bit of time to read and discuss, but then again it's not for the charter custom. Yes, please go ahead.

B

Yeah but one thing to to make this Less Auto fashion is to put a heading on top of it background, and then it's clear to everyone that this is not describing what that the working group is doing now. But it's just background information, so they don't have to read it with with, quite as as final comp, they would normally yeah.

A

That's the whole goal casting so I I can try that and let's see what Eric says about it. But yes, I would like that's. Why I conserve the text I wanted to do something like that. So I really like your proposal thanks so much and that yes, so if, if we do that, then it still means that this text should be looked at. So if you want to have a little quick read on it, if you have any any quick comment that will have my editor ready to to do some changes.

A

A

And maybe by the time we we send that to the ASG, we will have some number of the city to the other document. Yes counter, please.

C

Okay, uh is this sound correct.

A

Yes, I can hear you.

C

um Yeah just a quick comment from the uh provider: it's uh it says. First, uh the the main focus was, and now uh the new focus is is Disney. One uh maybe should be reversed. The description saying uh this is uh the interest is: is using a compression technologies that it contacts, header, compressions to different or values protocols and explain later what the acronym originated from I. Don't know it's just quickly.

A

What you you want to reverse the order: I mean what you want to.

C

Do now suggesting that? Yes, possibly because, if you come from like with zero background on what this is doing, like the first line, should explain what this is about and then uh provide an explanation as to why the the name, whether you want in the first place.

A

Okay, so kind of the second, the second paragraph should be first.

A

Then do not discuss yeah I, I yeah, okay, I I. It's not an easy, like I'm.

C

A single situation yeah, it's not easy, especially right.

A

I cannot choose online right now, so I.

B

A

Keep in mind that it's.

B

A

B

The thing with actual text to look at so um I think the first sentence needs to be the first sentence and then the second paragraph can be spliced in and then we can go into the documents and also you can tell us about right, but the first sentence needs to need to stay there.

A

Okay, first sentence needs to stay there, then maybe second paragraph and then okay anyway. If we are not to publish that text, we won't spend too much time, but if we are, then there can be a little bit reorganization in it I'm not in that okay. So now we enter the real text. I don't share the editor, but I have the editor on on my side, so ready to take any any suggestion.

A

So first sentence: first.

A

B

Yeah I think the the um the charter needs to stand on its own, so saying continue. Activities of the previous Charter um at the end doesn't quite work, so I I started reading the Google, extended scope and then, of course the first question is from what um and uh yeah we. We have to include everything that we will be, that varians hope.

A

Oh, that that is the next.

A

There is the next slide, which basically details but I yeah. We we, okay, you want to repeat the scope of the original charter.

B

Well, that is done, but continue activities. I mean this is like maintenance and and adding other there too mappings.

B

A

So would you like to change the last sentence to will instead of continue activities from the previous chapter, if we can remove that and turn it into maintain its existing work, performance and spice system work and Technology work.

B

Well, I would probably split the list on slide 10 into uh the the maintenance and continue activities part and the new work part.

A

Which is really item, one versus all, the others right, which is which is really item, one versus all the others.

B

B

I'm not sure that two is not previous. It actually says previously.

A

No, we did not have a way yeah, we know Charter. We had to extend the charter to take it.

B

A

B

Yeah, so I probably would merge the last sentence on slide. Nine, with the first sentence on slide 10 to say the the group will uh take over the maintenance of this mechanisms, including.

A

Okay, let me let me write that down the group will take, can you repeat, will take maintenance uh we'll carry on carry out maintenance? How would you write it down.

B

Yeah, please what's my thoughts at the meeting I'm, not speaking uh print I'm, not in my ready for print mode right now,.

A

Okay, so so, basically, what you you would remove item one basically and and.

B

Before so, it's it's clear that this is the maintenance working group for the Sheikh uh mechanisms.

A

Okay, so basically I'm taking I the part. The first part the item, one here and then kind of overwriting will continue activities on the previous Charter. With that text yeah. Okay, let me do that.

B

At the first paragraph, because uh if if the previous slide is, is the background, you cannot just assume that it's now clear what the charter, uh what the existing scope is. You have to write one sentence about the scope.

A

A

In that case, we are not. uh What do you mean when they say extend the scope yeah, that's undefined, that's what you're saying.

B

Yeah so the the.

A

B

So you, you cannot assume that people consult other documents to understand the charter.

A

Yeah, which is what this text was doing initially right, the initial focus on terrible, enable IPC technology.

B

That kind of let's go because network is done. So what what is left of that scope? You have to have a generic.

A

Well, that's a good point, nothing much to be honest, because if we look at at what we had to do, um yeah we don't I mean what would be left is if there was a new lp1 technology, but there is none and if there was I mean that would be a fool. So so there is nothing that we really near it.

A

If you look at it all the documents which are active internet uh drafts uh or are all being published and the personal submission at the bottom of the of the picture they they are not charted, so I mean there is no really in no case of continuing something that we are working on.

B

Okay, great, but but just describe the scope like uh maintaining the the sick mechanisms and providing Sheikh over food documents. That's the the scope, the natural scope that that is already there.

A

A

Then I would keep.

A

One as it is and and change the sentence which says we'll continue activity on the previous Charter I'm saying we continue previously chartered activities of chic over healthy ones and cheek compression, maybe something like that and take over new work as follow. You know just detail in two or three words. What the previous chapter was by saying it's just compression and another food.

A

Would that be enough.

B

Yeah so so there are two components of this scope: the the maintenance of the shake technology, so fixing things extending things, adding management to things and the addition of chic over few. A few documents.

B

A

B

The first two items of the new scope.

A

Actually I was wrong. Oem was written as previous Charter, so I forgot that okay, uh okay I see what you're saying uh I'll try to to to do a little bit of messaging to to to do what you say, but but actually item one and two belong to the previous chapter.

A

B

A

So yeah we could. We could effectively group them, as you said, okay, so so.

B

Yeah I think it's always a good thing to to identify parts of a charter that were previously agreed, um so people see see less of a reason to actually attack that uh part. Okay, that always saves time.

A

Makes makes a lot of sense, so I will I will have from the previous Charter before item one and two, which makes means that I can remove previous Charter us was spelled at the end of item once and one and two which is cool and and then say, new items.

A

For this Charter, so so, if I do that, then maybe.

A

Maybe we can keep that that sentence, that we had that's back to your original proposal but yeah. So we keep that sentence as it is. But here we say um from the previous chapter item one and item two new items for this Charter items: three, four: five, six.

B

A

Okay, that's that works okay, neat! Thank you. Kirsten.

A

So now, as we look at those items well, oam.

A

Well, nothing really surprising. Maybe the list of foods I mean ethernet is like we. We think we could ask for a Nissan type, that's and, and then, if we have a shake header, we could place it after that ether type as well, not just after the IPR UDP.

A

Here we say on item four, we say over IP, maybe if we don't say over IP, um that's easier to to say ethernet as well. Otherwise we're missing advice on it.

A

Okay, do you see any any other things that you like to come out? Are we missing big items? That's the big one or do we do you think one of those items would not be tractable.

B

So what is SEC this area.

A

Or SEC area security area, how would you spell it.

B

Well, certainly not this way, because I have no idea what the duration is.

A

Work from the security area.

B

Yeah ITF security area- maybe it's even.

A

B

A

A

A

um That has actually Bob's discussion and he's the only one who really wants to contribute to that. For now we need to learn. He was trying to sell I, not like um Heep. He said there is something in Hip that we can use and hip is his baby, um and then there was I forgot.

A

Anyway, we need to discuss that with him, I mean and yes, the rule installation is is more work. I mean how do we? It's probably some work in the architecture as well, so item six will impact the architecture.

A

And Laura insisted that there could be some bar overshik as well, not just Sheikh Rafa, foreign security.

B

Well, the way it's spelled in the last line is this kind of okay, uh but the the SEC Dash, a r e r, a r e, a that. That's weird.

A

Well, anyway, it's it's spelled, it's spelled security. Oh it's I just said security area. That's it.

B

B

No, so what what is Barra do you have an example for that.

A

um What did he talk about? I forgot? There was something but I forgot. Well anyway, we they're already uh specification for the LMS uh of our check, but but he had another another case, but we just opened the door. Basically, if somebody comes with with a bar something similar to the other list, and we could work on it.

B

There may be people in the Isco, don't like open doors like that.

A

Okay, I mean yeah. Sadly, law is not with us, so we're. Maybe you would like to be a bit more specific on what the bar is.

B

Yeah there should be some some scope again, so it cannot just be any bar I mean we all understand what the fool here is uh because we we have done IP over full documents, so people will probably not ask about what that what is meant by that, but maybe they even ask that, but um the bar part is, is pretty weird. So I read this as a companion to the co-op part of chic.

A

Even compressing IP is is already a bar right. Ip is a bar. Co-Op is a bar.

A

Yeah exactly I mean when we compressed IP IP is a bar.

D

Which means it's everything.

A

B

We already can compress IP. So what.

A

Are you talking about it's additional bars, I mean like AP and changes for SMP, yeah she's.

B

A fool not a bar.

A

D

A

How do we indicate that we have shake when underneath her internet packet? What we compress with Chic at that point would be IP, so the bar would be IP and the food will beat on that.

B

Yeah so I'm I'm talking about what are the higher level protocols the protocols above chic that we do not already do but want to do in this new Charter.

A

That's I understand the question. Like I said you had a case and I forgot what it is.

B

A

One of them could be ipv4, since we don't compress ipv.

B

D

When one could be related M2M, so going all the way up to 90 meters, it could be another way of doing Co-op.

D

It could be icmpv6 for OEM, which was already in the charter, acknowledge.

B

D

B

Maybe supplying these examples, what we have I have no idea why you would need a separate standard for lightweight M2M, but ismpv6 and ipv4 are certainly good examples.

A

Okay, so so let me in that sentence where we say where food includes but is not limited to blah I can add in bar, includes.

A

A

A

That is not limited to ICM pv6, and what did you say to unique?

A

uh It's not necessarily A CMP as a whole. Right I mean I'm, serious IPv6 CMP based protocol, because icmp is just a container uh icmpv6 based protocols.

A

um And Quantum 2m, that's that's what oh no did you did. You did you say one and turn now I'm confused or did you say lightweight lightweight.

D

A

That's lightweight that you mentioned.

D

Yeah, which isn't a led to them to overcome, and if you want to go into compressing like to attempt them headers, which happens.

B

D

You could describe that, you don't have to everybody, can invent their own solution, yeah, which is true.

A

Yeah is there somebody willing to take on that work, because if we spell it, that means that we we will do something on it and for now I. Don't have any signal that somebody is willing to produce a document on it.

A

A

I I I'm I'm not wearing too much to insist on ipv4 right now. Now that we could.

A

A

And then we see what what the the chair the the isg says anyway, it's just a proposal. It will be edited and edited. Do you think I should list ipv4 right now.

B

Well, that is an interesting question whether we get a general license to uh do any of these protocols or whether we we have to recharge our for every single one of them. So I think that that's something we need to discuss with Eric.

A

Because we are not changing the protocols, we are just providing a way to compress them. So it's not like we Define those protocols. We just Define a you know some some rules to compress them sure. So why should we allow be allowed to do this and not that.

B

Because the the isg wants to keep the working group from drowning in scope creep, so I think there are valid reasons why there might be concern about doing IP V4 here I'm, not.

A

Saying oh yeah.

B

I I think it's likely or that it's not likely I just don't know so I think that's something we really should be discussing with Eric.

A

Which means that I should write it down for narc and then after discussion with Eric, we we might remove it but yeah. So let's thank you before so I say ipv4 and icmpv6 based protocols.

B

Yep, so maybe it is such as so. We are not designing with our blood that we are going to do that.

A

Well, for ipv4 I I think I mean if you're listening to this, you might react, but um I think Lahore wanted to do something about it. At some point,.

E

B

E

Iran was I, don't know if he wants to work in ipv4, but he wants to work in TCP I, don't see TCP in the full, but.

E

It could be discipline there.

A

Oh yes, I'm, adding decently I mean again. If we are compressing from From Below, we just the way we compressed UDP we could and Co-op. We could compress TCP and HTTP or even quick. The quick, probably is already efficiently spelled it's very hard to compress quick, but.

D

It wasn't dtls mentioned at some point as well.

A

Yeah I mean if the thing is a nice telling us that Lauren's willing to work on it. If, if somebody is willing to work on the TLs, then fine, and then we could list them as examples, but if we don't want to commit to write a document where nobody is is contributing.

D

Yeah I'm, just saying maybe you you could ask your co-chair, it seems like Cleo, is interested in details. Okay,.

A

E

Think the ipv4 problem was more for 3gpp than for I'm gonna run 3gpp is using ipv4 and IPv6, and then that was the question of Edgar. Regarding the ipv4 solution for chic.

A

A

Did you get any any news on that side by the way now on on India UT, the 3gpp come back to New.

E

um Statement is in the last call, it was has ended and we only receive a personal review of a 3gpp.

E

Of Ericsson, but it's not uh is not formal in the in the in the statement. So that's why we published version 15.

E

um because he give us some editorial changes of some references and some text in the in the draft, and he was he was agree about the solution.

E

But it is not a 3gpp review, so I think Eric um closed. The last call and sent it to the RFC. Editor. Okay, not receive any input from The Detour. Now until now, so.

A

E

A

That was the question I had earlier. You sent us some slides. Do you want to to go and present them? No.

E

It's just it's just say that that what I am saying now, okay, we published version 15 with the 3gpp review and the 3gpp review was not the valuation statement review so and we closed the last call and we send it to the RFC editor. And now we are waiting for the comments of.

A

E

Going forward without any problem, so we have kept the two parts, the informational and the standard part as we do it in version 14, 13. Sorry, so that's is that the way it will be published, I think- or at least we send it like that for the editor.

A

Okay, so so we're good I guess yeah.

E

A

E

News good news.

A

There was the Christmas break and everything so you know yeah you're in the queue I think I mentioned that on my own works right. Yes, but you, you know um urinated state, which really means that they're working on your document right now, so they probably go through it and they you know they progress in it and one step then one pass. It will come to you with a number of questions.

E

Yes, of course, so I'm working that so and then after we will see when they say the leader.

A

Excellent excellent so back to the chapter item, so I've done and.

E

I was I was wondering if we want to work in the IDS that we discuss uh I. Think in the side meeting of the iotf at London.

C

E

Of the ideas for the protocol that doesn't have the next header how we identify that chick is inside.

E

Do you remember.

A

That's that's why I want to this to Define next to the right, P or then we said if we there's the discussion of having a a destination option or something indicating that what you have inside is check and for now the discussion was kind of I was losing that discussion. It was kind of reopened.

A

Is it what you have in mind.

E

A

So yeah, that's part of item four I guess okay depends and we have to Define exactly how we do it. So is it? Is it like? A new protocol which will you know once applied, generates a normal packet with IP in it, and now you process the IP packet, or is it like this nation option, information which which has um some parameters which allow you to understand what goes in the protocol? Because the protocol now is compressed check or something.

A

E

Okay, accordingly,.

A

I think we are not ready for for that design. We don't have really. We need some interim discussions just on that whiteboard would be accept okay, so so, let's leave with this and uh I will talk to Eric again, based on on that discussion.

A

So do do we have any other business for this interim.

A

I'm hearing none, so we get 15 minutes back back for our lives and thank you all for for joining.

A

E