Jakarta EE TCK, 2 Mar 2022

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From YouTube: TCK call #8

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March 2, 2022 Jakarta EE Platform TCK call #8. Minutes can be viewed via https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IX_gyiI50sgjju7IUYyLapOO0rrqcTix/view?usp=sharing

A

B

And um I can see that I think guru is here or he's joining. um I see both in the yeah in the current status and alwyn is here. Brian, cesar uh jared. Welcome! Welcome all so. Let's um um get you know right right into it. Oh um yeah. I should add my name to the agenda too.

B

B

Awesome so yeah, so um someone had the um question of um about timelines, which is, uh let's see excellent question, and um the spec leads communication that we saw this week um is pasted in in know here and.

A

You know basically.

B

We're looking to um to complete um all of the platform specifications by middle of may, so that we can go through the two-week voting period for end of may so going backwards.

B

From that we need to um finish yeah. We need to be done with everything tck's by end of april. In order to hit end of april. I propose that would mean we finish test development by the end of march, which is what I propose.

B

And complete bug fixing of the tck test, or at least the platform tck tests by um you know, sometime in april um and so yeah so feature complete by end of march bug fixing by end of april, but hopefully sometime before then and bug fixing involves implementations that are trying to pass reporting uh bugs, of course, and um it's um you know good good to um you know, to have multiple implementations.

B

You know reporting in on the you know, any any particular potential um problems um and we have yeah. We have these new pla standalone, spec, tcks and it'd be really good to have more than one implementation that has passed. Sorry that has run at least run the new tcks before we hit.

B

You know before we get too far into um april, so that there's time to you know fix any uh bugs and, or you know or time to make, you know changes for those tcks and um that's that's my input on that um on schedule um and they wanna. You know anyone else.

A

Scott, I'm just going to bring it up. um The flight fits the schedule, but there's a timing happening here where java 18 will be coming out and will we be tolerating java 18 at all with the jakarta e10 tck.

A

Tolerating I don't know if it wasn't targeting, but.

B

um Targeting pass in um tcks on java 18., so um good question: will we be targeting passing tcks on java? 18 is how I um java security.

A

Manager is disabled by default.

B

This this came up on the platform call um yesterday and there was some discussion about that which was yeah, which was which was a good start and there's on the platform mailing list. There has been this discussion um and, at the end, at the end of the platform, call I'm going to quote emily, who, who mentioned giving feedback on the open, jdk security developments?

B

Oh sorry, our security manager development. I forget, um but you know the one associated with the jeps um about about that about. You know jakarta ee and I think that's a really good idea, but you know just you know not to repeat that. I I think I think for for java 18. That should be. You know, I think it's I think it's a cheap.

B

It should be achievable because implementations, basically, if they want to run past the tcks on java 18, they need to be able to run the security manager and pass in whatever flags they need to to kind of. Let them still use this security manager and.

A

Yesterday, what so, the stance yesterday was you're going to require to change the default behavior of java 18? If you want to run jakarta.

B

um The stance was actually was just more general, you know yeah yeah general general than that it was um there's going to be. You know the next, the next long. You know long, you know long um um lts, lts, thank you. um Java will be 21 and that's going to be out in I think roughly a year.

B

So it's going to come so you know very quickly and that's the one that we don't really know um what will be stubbed out in the security manager apis versus what will be removed, um but for 18 I don't you know, I I don't believe there'll be um anything removed yet, but I you know it's all it's up to the java. You know to the jdk team and they can do whatever yeah they can.

B

They will do what they do um when they you know when they do that, and it's, but the you know I think 21 is the you know, is the right one where things might be more likely to be removed by that are going to be removed, or maybe something stubbed out, and um it's.

A

Not be uh not the old put it back on so what.

B

Would it mean I mean I didn't ask this yesterday, but um one question I've been thinking about is what what does it mean to run on a java version that does have some parts of the security manager api stubbed out? Does it have it doesn't you know? Does it mean you've passed that you're testing if the security manager isn't doing what you you know, you know what it was supposed to be doing. So I don't know I'm just yeah not going to try to make it into a bigger thing.

B

But but that's another question that I I haven't heard asked, but.

A

B

Sounds like they talked about yesterday.

A

When we brought it up, we have a call on it in five minutes, so I was okay. Hopefully emily will be on that as well. So I know: okay, assuming that's your conflict.

B

Yeah, so so java 18, isn't it you know, isn't specifically, you know um documented as a target. I think you know 11 is the base and 17 is you know you know in or you can your implementations can, you know, can run and pass on 11 or you know 17 as well, and um but it's always you know, since nine, since ee9 we've always said it's our nine one.

B

I should say it's it it it's it's the base, sc version plus, whatever you know, whatever version the implementation can run on, but that's all subject to what compatibility changes come in through newer jdk versions,.

A

So if 21 comes out, 21 gets rid of security manager.

A

Would challenges, be accepted, then saying that these tests don't pass because there's no security manager 21 and then be allowed to have a valid certification on using java toronto.

B

I think that's going to be a platform discussion and decision from like the platform committers, I think- or maybe it's a spec committee yeah that will make that call late late. I think it's a later call. I think it's too early to know at this point. Okay,.

A

B

Sorry to rehash it, I I.

A

Missed this call, unfortunately, with the conflict.

B

Yeah, that's f, that's fine! um So you um but yeah! That's um you know! You know, that's that's! What's going on there, so any any um other feedback on scheduling or more on that.

B

Okay- let's see um so so. The next question um um came up um about yeah four new for new for new migrated um from platform tck.

B

Specification tcks can can the community or the you know the standalone spec tck teams help produce scripts for running the testing that could be used for glass, fish, 7 testing and certification and for any ee implementations, and I'm not sure that we'll get answers here. But um would anyone like to take that question.

A

uh For uh jax rstck, like we already have a job that is created to run the tck against glass fish.

A

uh Currently, the test passes with class fit six, uh so uh we need some more update in the the in the scripts to run it with classified seven and also to pass the test so yeah, I'm just giving in the next as an example yep, maybe yeah so other specs can probably follow something similar, but I think we would need the jobs created in the ipck or maybe even if in their respective spec thinkings cis should be fine. I believe.

B

Good, okay, um let's see so, we should link to.

A

B

I'm just I'm just gonna, um say I'll, add.

A

B

Good okay, let's see so.

B

For any, for you know, for any um um you know help we need we, you know. Maybe we can email, the spec teams. You know the this um spec development mailing list so create issues for them. You know requesting the help um you know setting that up and then um the update, the updated for glass, fish, seven um bash scripts or ci um could be. You know, good examples for other implementations for what you.

A

B

They'll need to do to run those tcks, those new tcks, all right, okay, we I we had a lot of um discussion in the platform tck, I'm sorry in the platform mailing list about this next one and it wasn't just json b tcks. But um the question was: is you know, are there any remaining concerns about standalone, json, binding tcks.

B

Running java, sc style, test and um kind of went on to go on to point out that there's there's java, sc style testing that um I think the json btck is currently doing and then there's java e chica. Oh, did I say job I should I should change. Let me let me fix that jakarta, not java, ee oops and the other, the other. The other style is jakarta.

B

Ee style testing which, like in in the cdi tck, does both it supports java, sc style, testing and jakarta ee style testing, and I linked linked to the documentation in the agenda for the cdi example of how they allow either one.

B

But um so just you know, the other tck was the concurrency tck, which which currently only does jakarta ee style testing, but not um java, sc style testing and my impression from the feedback received so far is that um you know people may be looking for both. You know sc and ee, but um any so any other feedback here on that.

A

Hey scott sorry, my uh my connection has been dipping throughout this call, so I haven't been able to um hear everything you're saying, but I obviously there's a lot of consternation coming from some of the liberty folks on this, um specifically with the the idea of an sc only one. I I think in general people would be happy um with the hybrid approach that has been proposed for json b, where there are still some tests somewhere to do kind of platform integration stuff um and then the the sc portion um is what it is.

A

There was some confusion, slash consternation still because of differing answers on the other mailing list about um you know dimitri. I think it said at one point that like well hey, if uh you know the tck is already running against the acid and you're just shipping. Yes, and then you shouldn't really need to run this, which seems weird to us um and that doesn't seem to be a mainstream position necessarily.

A

um But, but if that means that you know it's dependent on everybody being honestly configuring, the the standalone tcka to point to uh you know the proper things in their in their that they ship with their server um and then and then um you know most recently, scott kurtz has added comments about the batch tck and the way that it works, um and I personally think that that is probably the model that tcks should aspire to.

A

So if, at some point the json b, tck were extended to add that are killing support, basically reusing the tests that are already there, so they could be around in the environment that that would be a great thing. um Obviously it might be kind of late in the game to do that for right now, but uh yeah.

A

So I think people are just looking for clarity on what the specific requirements are going to end up being and obviously we'll figure that out as we as we try to get compatible. Implementations stood up here for ee10 um but yeah. I I think that's where a lot of the concern.

B

Is coming from? That's that's actually um comforting to me um because that yeah that that's, that kind of summarizes you know um where we are now. You know very well um um um and I'll just say yeah, so so people um would like to have a mix of the of java sc and the coder sc.

B

Oh, I already said that yeah, I'm repeating myself now, um but um um but yeah um I so from the from the platform tck perspective, um I I was trying to give guidance to the standalone specs that um you know you know they. They are in control and and there's reasons for them to do sc only and there's reasons for them to do ee only.

B

But I you know, I agree um that in general we should be open to um change into a hybrid approach where it's a mix of both um still if the spec team doesn't want to do that. They're, not gonna. You know it's it's, so it's gonna be sort of up to them um whether they want like you know whether they wanted to be a jakarta ee testing kind of tck.

B

You know versus just only the standalone spec, um because you know because there there is a big commitment to doing the the composite or the hybrid approach, and um so it it so it's hard to like to to to to to forbid anything at this point, but just in car you know, I think we should be open and encourage um the idea, but I'll I'll, just I'll just point out the reason: um yeah one reason why it would be a neck, it could be a negative um and, let's, let's just um uh let me know um um you know, talk about the standalone tcks that are doing ejb now.

B

um So, let's, let's just say, hypothetically, that a ee 11 standalone tck has a usage. Sorry uses some ejb method that, um for whatever reason you know- and this is just purely hypothetical- but you know for some reason during the ee 11 development cycle, that method has to be has to be removed for some reason and then it's sort of agreed on and, let's just say it's related to the security manager, changes or something like that. I don't know um something like that.

B

Could catch that standalone, spec, tck team um um off uh yeah uh um could could surprise them in the way that you know initially, they start. You know they taught. You know they target the previous ee versions, ejb support um and they kind of like complete their tck and they, you know very end. They get surprised by the removal of the ejb feature or just say a class method that they use.

B

So they have to update the tck, not a big deal, but, let's just say hypothetically, they had already gone through um the the you know the staging, and you know the ballot you know through the ballot process of of their um spec and an implementation had already passed their tck at that point.

B

In that scenario, they have to update their tck this that I think they have to release a new spec version. They have to bump their spec version, because this action that I just described kind of invalidates implementations that have passed now that release is kind of invalid and that can kind of yeah that that can cause a lot. You know a lot of problems and I think we would over communicate to prevent something. Like that from happening- and you know it wouldn't prac- it's not really a practical example, but it could happen.

B

So just like one, you know just one of the you know one. You know one scenario where there is some extra cost, um so it it just. You know nothing is for free. I guess was my is my. You know general point there, but um I hope that they do do the hi. I hope everyone does a hybrid approach and I think it works out. You know better that way um and we just might have some of these.

B

I guess chicken, chicken and egg kinds of situations like that, but I don't know anyone else have more to share on that.

A

um And and circling back sorry, scott because, like I said, I was having trouble on my end with my connection um when you were talking about standalone tcks in general, and other teams investigating those to to help out with glass fish. um Open liberty is in the process of scanning a lot of that stuff up. So we should be there alongside you trying to run a lot of this stuff in the same time frame.

B

That is awesome. um Okay, so let me open liberty is also trying this out. um You know I'll I'll say I mean yeah. Wildfly um is also you know also um working on this as well, nothing to re report at this point, but uh um I I would be disappointed if we didn't have this kind of participation and um because I I always like to see more than one for something new. I always like to see more than one um you know vendor or sorry more than one user.

B

If you is what I meant to say want more than one user of of some new thing and um so yeah, seeing that um two or three can use each one of the new standalone tcks, I think, will be very, very valuable. I don't know you know when any of us will be. You know the glass fish team, the wildfly team, the open liberty team will be. You know where we'll be when we'll be there and but you know everyone is expecting that glass fish will, you know, will be able to meet the schedule.

B

But who knows- um and you know we'll yeah we'll see what happens, but I would be disappointed if only glass fish had had run with those tcks, and I don't even mind if it's you know if it's others that are running but not passing um the tcks as much as I just want to see that everyone can run them and um in that in that area um uh I'm just going to open. I think I think um I've seen it before, but I'll I'll just see I'll just say.

A

B

Bullet um different ee implementation teams should reach out to platform pck mailing lists and or create issues.

B

You know you know for um for getting help and so yeah, whether that's the glass fish team and obviously the glass fish team is getting additional help.

B

You know as judged by the you know the question questions about um um helping them get scripts going so that the platform tck can can jobs can run glass, fish testing, um as has been done before, but um but yep okay.

B

So thank you for um uh mentioning open liberty there and uh that's good anyway. Anyone else we're um we're a half hour in and I think we hit the end.

B

I think we hit the end. Let me just scroll down. Did I miss anything? Nope? Okay? I didn't I didn't. um I didn't you know talk to it, but you know at the end of the agenda I just uh mentioned so forward. You know to reiterate what brian had said um about you know on the hybrid approach and being open to that. You know if it's not something that we can do now, that being something that we target for future releases.

B

um um You know approaching that could be done by you.

A

B

By discussion on the mailing list and issues creating pull requests, I think and any other ideas that people have are welcome as well on that and by discussion on discussion discussion on the mailing list. What I mean is, if you're not part of a particular spec list, you might want to start with creating an issue for that spec team bring it up that you'd like to see the whether it's the jakarta ee style or the java sc style test added and yeah just to cut. Try to initiate.

B

The planning for that and um and then yeah, you can volunteer to create a pull request or you have to work on it. um I can you can just work on it. You know um up to you and if you do volunteer, you know that others might see that you're.

B

You know you're working on it and then they can mention that they, you know they'd like to work on it too, and help you know, coordinate with you on on it or are not you never know, but um but yeah all good things um when that happens, um but yeah yeah that those were just some. That's what I had in mind. You know for those points, but any any any other ideas for that.

B

All right, I think, I'm going to stop sharing the slides, so okay oops wrong button.

B

Let's see trying to get back to the zoom.

B

uh huh All right, I'm gonna leave. I'm gonna leave the slides up for now until I find the menu for zoom, but um anything else.

A

All right, um sorry, real quick, I'm reminded, I think it was a amelia last call. Maybe he was talking about.

A

Trying to keep better track of the open issues, slash pull requests for the e10 effort, not in get. I know, there's a bunch of outstanding issues out there that are tagged with ee10.

A

I presume that those are all still required in our opinion to to be part of that work. That's getting done by the end of march, slash bug fixing in april, um and, if that's not true, maybe we need to scrub that list, not necessarily here on this call but yep. You know.

B

Yeah, um so how should should we have a call and and and kind of like talk through the issues so I'll say how to triage the issues and pull requests um yeah, you know, via slack conversation in tck room, there's one option or um have a call for, let's just say, call for an hour and see how far we can go um would be too white. Here is any any preferences.

A

I could go with either of those, I suppose you could. You could ask on slack what people are thinking to maybe get more eyes on it, but.

B

Yep um is anyone against using slack for that.

A

uh I think we can start with slack and if it's something that needs more discussion, maybe we can go start a call.

B

Oh sorry um um have a have a call on have a zoom call or have a slack conversation. I I I'm like I'm confused.

A

Yeah, my first preference was to start with the slack conversation.

B

Okay start with uh with a slack conversation initially and then have a zoom call if needed, cool. Okay, all right, I like slack, because then you just you have the history, but then you know it doesn't age. Well, you know at some point you'll you never find that you can search for it. I think, but I'm not sure how long it stays around, but.

A

Yeah, I think it's I thought if at some point it's it's a lot of exchanges, maybe the call will be way more productive if.

B

A

You know a couple of slide messages are not enough and.

B

We can bring it to.

A

The main list, and then a call, or vice versa, yeah.

B

Just add yeah it'll be recorded, so this can listen to the recording and so forth. Great okay, that's that sounds great. um I went through the issue list, just you know just just to just to mention, um and I I I think I I might have. I think I removed some things and that I took them off.

B

They removed the ee10 label, but I can't say for sure which ones I don't remember now, but um because it's you know some of them didn't seem like they were ee 10-ish.

B

um um Maybe I removed it from the from the security manager one then, but then I think I put that ee10 back on for that because it oh, no sorry it was the module yeah. Now remember it was the module info issue. There's a issue for creating tests that validate that module info is specified, and um I I removed the e10 label from that because it didn't seem to be a requirement anymore, um but um that's when we can treat uh yeah and that's when we can.

B

We can triage as well, because maybe that should be done so definitely. um I think I think this will be good, so yep so agreed and we'll start with slack and then we'll have a call. Okay, anything else.

B

I'm gonna, okay, I'm gonna stop the screen. Now I think, let's see.

B

Stop share there. We go okay, um all right, um so we saved 20 minutes. Thank you, everybody for um showing up and um have a great rest of your day and see you in the community and on um slack um yeah. You know in the tc platform tck um room, um and you know we can start. You know we can start talking about the different issues there and then you know have a call to kind of um you know: walk through them as well.

B

Okay, all right, bye! Everybody thank.

A

You thank you bye-bye.