Jenkins Documentation Office Hours, 13 Jul 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: 2020 07 13 Jenkins Docs Office Hours

Description

Jenkins documentation office hours July 13, 2020 with topics including Google Season of Docs, Docker images, and issue tracking in the Jenkins project.

A

Recording is on thanks: everybody for joining jenkins, docs office hours.

A

See I need to find our notes: I've assembled them, and here they are okay, so Jonathan since you're here any questions that you have that you'd like to start us with.

B

Mm-Hmm I didn't see our AJ them so today today,.

A

Was just Q&A just question-and-answer.

B

Okay, you know, I have just a I need some clarification for. You. I would like to have your opinion about a PR that I create seven days ago, and it's possible. I would like to have more information about the community bridge to but I I read all the those links and that you provide to us, but there is no viable information to to members to proposal. Send their proposal I, maybe I, think I didn't find it no.

A

B

A

Are correct? We are not. We are not ready, yet I, don't think we're ready yet anyway, with a process that proposes how people would send a proposal for a community bridge project, so so yeah.

B

I understand they workflow process to work on.

A

Right well so, let's, let's put that, let's put that as a topic and we'll we can discuss it and so community bridge.

A

Proposals and topics right and workflow, okay, good.

A

So I'm actually going to go ahead and share my screen and we'll just look at my screen as a as our source for the notes, and we can talk to it there. That's it's, certainly, no, no, no worse, looking than I am and is a lot more organized. Looking than I am so there we go community.

C

Based argue that much yes.

A

Yes, no, that's that'll, be enough. That's great! All right! So community bridge is we. We don't have a project proposal workflow defined. Yet in the past, in the past community bridge project.

A

We reused the google season of code proposal workflow. Now it was a code, it was a code project and therefore it fit to use. Google season of code I would assume, will reuse the google season of Docs.

A

Process for community bridge.

A

So right now that would mean we would draft proposals. They would go to probably the Jenkins governing board for for review or to the mentor team from google season of Docs, and then a project would be selected that person would be funded and off we would go now. Is that what you were asking Jonathan or as there's some other questions.

B

Yeah yeah just for a clarification, I asked for because I have some doubts about, but what do you need to? We need to prepare something. There is some time standard to work on like a stone max like a time line or nothing. Yes, not yet. So, just let's await import, correct.

A

Right the first, the most crucial thing here is: is funding funding and approval to do a community bridge project.

A

Will have to come from the comes from the governing board from the Jenkins board.

A

And that that hasn't been granted yet- and so that's that's the most crucial thing before that, until that happens, and right now, our total dollars sitting in community bridge to use for this is not enough to fund it, and so so we would, we may have to request more funds or we may have to request donations or etc, etc.

A

B

So we can wait for a signal from Jenks organization. Yes,.

A

Correct right so wait wait.

B

C

An announcement and.

A

It will be, it will be made very publicly right so of a community bridge project, so the the last one we did we did with a blog post. We did with a mailing list announcement. I, don't I, don't think that we would do a webinar for this one, but we might even do a webinar. That's that's a possible for sure. In the past, we've used blog posts and mailing list announcements.

A

Okay, I would expect we would in the given that now we're using the Gator channel. We would likely also announce it in the giver channel.

D

Mark I wanted to comment on this in case. If participants of this special interest group or like any Jenkins project participant participants, can facilitate funding, please let us know how can we help okay.

A

So that's a that's a very good question. Let me show one example. This is when you might mention to two others with whom you work or to employers. So if we look at the Jenkins community bridge page, it is accepting donations and let's see where is it so you could pass, for instance, to an employer. Then you say hey. We would like you to contribute to Jenkins community bridge and now I may have to go, find the correct location just a minute while I go looking, it is not there, but there okay.

A

So there is a donate button somewhere in these things, donate. Where is donate? Maybe I should just do it like this I know there is on github on different. Oh yes,.

D

A

That's a very good suggestion: I should just go there because of course it also exists. There I think I can find it here, contributing down.

A

No okay, so because I know that the donate page has been added.

A

No, that's not it okay, so it may be that it's still in progress. So let's use Vlad's suggestion and go to github and github and I. Think. If we look at core I believe it's been enabled on core: has it no I don't over sponsor there's a little? Oh, that worked yeah there we go! Thank you excellent okay.

A

So this page shows us that we could, and so individuals and organizations can contribute the I believe this three thousand dollar expense that you see here was what we used last year to fund the Jenkins community pride bridge project that we ran last year. So we would be delighted to have more contributions and big green donate button. Thank.

A

You thanks for guiding me through that sorry for my lack of skill. But yes, that's that's! That's the way to get there.

A

Any other questions on community bridge.

A

Okay, we had another topic here, which was Google season of dock proposal, details, dr. solutions and tutorials. That was this one you've had a store is there? Somebody else should ask that I.

D

Actually added this, and this is full up to our submission of proposals, which I guess happened last week and I would like to address my well my proposals. I just wanted to keep them somewhere. I posted today, a question on docker discussion group and got response from Alex that nothing is developed regarding to my proposal, and it was basic proposal- was about creating something very simple which will allow to generate set of docker images with Jenkins inside.

D

Something similar to Mullen archetype, for instance, archetype generated. You can create different archetypes up to 15 different solutions predefined, and we can just my idea do something very similar to this. The main goal, from my point of view, is simplicity of this kind of tool or plugin. I have no experience developing Jenkins plugins, so users can very easily are built and instantiate run docker image, which will do something very specific, and this Pacific's will be defined by Jenkins project or by by Jenkins.

D

Basically, community reach and the user and user will need to choose between solutions which are more appropriate to his goals and again, there is like wide range of different possible solutions, and I would start in case if I will be allowed to implement this from simple one and go up by increment complain. Complexity, not vice versa, so kind of bottom to up approach versus top-down.

D

So yeah I will both start with kubernetes but go into it with kubernetes and.

A

I think the idea is interesting, the the we we have tutorials currently.

A

That, for instance, run run an agent Cerreta Jenkins, plus an agent to build a maven project, and we have a Jenkins plus an agent know a node nodejs project and Jenkins plus agent to build let's see, what's the old Python project, and so so you've got some good working base to think about it now to go, were you considering? I am assuming you are not considering other components in in this docker image. So, for example, not considering placing a source control system inside this image.

D

Place in source control huge inside this.

D

Probably not well, it depends how we run this I guess so, if there is like volume will be mapped to the source to them during instantiation plays, it will be. This image will have access to the sources, but yeah you are just my main goal is to attract new users, so they will become adopters or Jenkins, so we can increase their user base.

D

I know it is like already significant enough, but are still like, and the reason for this is for the simplicity, I believe this is how main technologies got very popular like how internet appeared, basically H th th, t ml is very simple kind of approach. Solution versus previous attempts.

D

Oh like rest restful approach, is better than simpler than soap. That is why it was adopted by industry. This kind of idea, so simplicity, is the key for adoption because, like Jenkins is already complex enough, so will really have good base of professionals like programmers, computer scientists and so on working on this, but something like to popularize it and make sure that, like my ex a virtual grandmother, the racial granddaughter will be able fix he old virtual him.

D

There is not such person, but they will be able to run it by simple command and create Jenkins apps.

D

Now, regarding based, you toodles that you mentioned in the previous paragraph, I guess they exist, but they're using how to phrase not official Jenkins in which they using blue ocean Jenkins evolution wishes. My understanding is deprecated kind of not supported any longer. That's.

A

It's it's not only. It has very specific problems that we would like to get away from it. Absolutely yes, so those tutorials are are flawed in the sense that they're using an image that then, if users, if users say oh I'll, base my work on that tutorial. We think they've made a mistake right rather than basing themselves on the blue ocean image. They should face themselves on the production Jenkins image, but that's that's disconcerting for them.

A

But I just did the tutorial on blue ocean on the blue ocean image, and the answer is yes, that's true. You have to make that disconcerting transition, so if those tutorials could be switched to to not use blue ocean, that would be a win for the the users for the students. For this we're studying.

D

Market comment also instead of saying not using blue ocean I. Think blue ocean is very interesting, attractive, plug-in not using the ocean image not but lotion. Plugin made is still included through plugins text, whatever inside.

A

The plugins yes and you make an excellent clarification, absolutely wholehearted agreement that we don't want to. We want to, in fact encourage them to use the blue ocean plug-in to visualize pipelines. It's an elegant way to do it to do pipeline, editing and visualization it's very, very powerful, but using the blue ocean docker image is an anti-pattern. It's a negative because of the problems that are in there built into the blue ocean docker image, yeah good, good clarification.

D

A

Now glad I think you saw my note on the custom wore packager. Alright.

D

A

A that one is a relatively exotic thing: I hesitate to I would not envision us being able to tell a new user of Jenkins. Oh just use, custom or packager to define your own completely custom. Jenkins instance. That's that's to me just too complicated for them it's. It is certainly an excellent technique for experts. Oleg makes very good use of it and others make very, very good use of it.

A

But the custom build service, Jenkins, custom, Jenkins distribution, build service is working towards what could be an end user, acceptable and then user usable ready to go. You define the configuration you want or pick from a menu and conceivably. We could have have something it says. Oh you want to run this tutorial. Fine, go to the custom, build this Jenkins distribution, build service and choose this distribution and.

D

A

They would get the this custom, probably docker, image, that's built for them or custom, something built for them that would meet their need. Mm-Hm.

D

I know that this this project is a part of google season of code, I, guess season or sum of code I can probably, although my understanding was that this specific project was trying it in UI, so users through you I, will select what they want to build by clicking proper plugins or whatever, and I was thinking about doing something from CLI kind of tool, which you can just put some option, for instance, whatever the name of this to whatever generate or create, or on and put option like number, for instance, and this number will be mapped to one of our solutions which we predefined based on something to decide, based on statistics, the most popular solutions, the most widely used less issues.

D

Well, whatever would be the most appropriate rule to define this kind of solution, but but you're right I need to wait, look more closely into this project.

D

Definitely there is some kind of overlap, annoying intersection.

D

And again I'm putting this for discussion, suggestions and so kind of follow up and provide in more details to ideas which isolated.

A

Any other questions or topics you'd like we'd, like to bring to the discussion.

B

Well, can I, speaking about the day DVRs that I said that beginning.

A

Let's do that so, let's and which were the PR, is Jonathan yeah.

C

I standard thing: true, the chef Bichette perfect. Let me grab it there and, let's take a look at it, so 3481 yeah.

B

Okay, now, okay, so some days ago or like Rick, recommended not to use raw HB, h, PL and right documentation. But let's pick this PR in the death one other I I use the red imported booth track to create this effect of todo. Visualization are your scene on the gift and you hit the bottle that show you the help or not. You choose fear, not the image so ask doc does not offer to us for a feature to do this, so you you will prefer to keep this button withdrawal each meals or you recommend to.

C

A

C

A

Would tend to advise removing it, but, let's let me look at something different. Let me show you a different one, because there is a thing that does: we've got something already that does a hide and unhide in a different context that we might be able to use or might be able to use to justify the technique you're showing us. So let me see if I can find it here. It is in the plug in the pipeline documentation.

A

If we look at pipeline syntax I believe it is, there is a section which will show us now. This is purely declarative. I may need okay pipeline syntax reference.

A

Okay, there's declarative make. Maybe you know where it is I. There is definitely a segment where I can see, let's see using doc. Maybe this is okay. Let's see oh yes, there. It is good okay! So let's the first question: can everyone see my screen? Okay? Yes, all right so here is here is a segment of the document that describes using docker with pipeline, and we give the preferred solution. First in declarative, pipeline declarative has the benefit that it. It is immediately parsed in its entirety.

A

So if there's a syntax error or late in the in the pipeline, it's detected immediately. Scripted doesn't do that, but some people have found that they they have to have scripted, and so we have this here which says toggle scripted pipeline, and it presents this other thing now. I I haven't looked in detail Jonathan to see how it does this, but I'm pretty sure it does it without without doing too much JavaScript without doing I suspect any JavaScript magic, because the people who worked on this particular thing I, don't think we're JavaScript programmers, yeah.

B

A

B

Quite complicated that solution, but I were a patient I, always thought that there's the one and replace it well.

A

At least compare it I'm, not sure I'm, it I'm not I'm, not confident yet to say who you should replace it. But if you compare what this technique is for me, this technique is helpful because yet, in this case, does I think what you were trying to do, which is initially the user benefits more by seeing the list of steps without seeing any tails for each step. Right.

A

There's I need to know that there are five things to do and if I put the pictures in there, all the time, I lose track of the fact that there are five things to do, because the pictures obscure that, whereas, if I could toggle to see the picture, expand yeah how much.

B

More yeah, it's the same idea that Vlad tells to us it's to keep sync. Oh it's not so we're not is visualization with su in the first contact that you have a lot of information, you get lost. Why? We are you reading on study, so I will study this link that you show to us and if you work where I will replace you great.

A

Well and I'm gonna put that into the notes just in case, so that gives a place to alright. So so, let's take a look at that: I mean it kinda, so pull requests discussion, so it was PR 3481 which had the expand and contract or hide and unhide images.

A

Consider this I.

B

Wrote this PR and I open an issue to to create a plugins to ask doc. So if you come back to get to civilization, look there, there is the link to create a new plugin. Okay.

C

So that was the.

B

Description at the description, yeah they're, the first.

A

B

Yeah and second bullet okay, so in fact I I wrote the code, but I know I'm, not a real expert. Do you know something in our group that have had the expertise to write plugin to join.

A

B

Some question well.

A

I know that Daniel Beck has done it. I know that I will be using some Ruby code to do a thing that I need to do for the Jenkins infrastructure page, so I'm going to be getting into it. But if you're asking somebody who has Ruby skills, that is definitely not. We I am willing to experiment and learn, but I certainly know people who have written code in the in the Ruby here, like Daniel back Oleg has as well as your benek connection. He has based in I believe he's in.

B

Okay, I think they may say to Lola get so maybe he's answer me the next day and the I come back the neck help to YouTube. So if I can't resolve Allah great.

A

B

A

So that was the first is the is the second to the same. That.

B

Second say if they say images for over samples, it should are two different pages, one about the fairness builder and the second one. It's about the agent actor.

A

Excellent now would you be willing to share a tutorial with us? I am truly impressed by the scrolling image that is here. How did you create that I want to be able to do that same technique? Yeah.

B

Yes, after they revisit a resume to see, revealed a change. I can make it to children and I. Think to you sure.

A

Sure, oh, that would be great if, if you want to just record something that's great, if you want to just tell me, that's fine I I, just I've seen people use this kind of technique where they use what I thought were must been animated, gifs and yeah.

B

It's marvelous.

A

B

Yeah, you just need a programmer to record your screen, so you export the geese in part in the website that support this, and so you can put a HTM tag. Image tag on this.

A

Okay, great thing.

C

A

Which piece teach how that would be wonderful thanks, very much.

D

Jonathan I had done this sometime in the past by already for what, if it is possible, I would like also to get. You are.

C

D

A

I'm sure I miss spelling your name Jonathan.

B

It's correct, oh very.

A

A

Eight yeah I've I've fallen in love with my full page screens, capture plug-in that I use with with Google Chrome, but it's a different thing than then scrolling gifts. It just gives me a static image, whereas you've got a way to show images that look like a movie yeah.

B

Some documentation website II used a lot of gifts too so complex steps for the users. No, it's I use gift too mighty a PowerPoint presentations too. So why I'm talking with the people? The kiss is running and background, it's easier to show samples while presentation guys. Thank you.

A

Any other questions.

B

Yeah yeah I receive a a nail from Google season of dogs just asking for to confirm with the ours organization if they receive our proposals correctly.

B

C

So do you receive the everything it's okay? As far as.

A

As far as I can tell from all X reports, that's a good question. Has the organization receive the proposals and.

B

They just ask for confirmation and.

A

The exercise I can tell is Oleg reported to the mentors that we have received it receive them.

B

A

We did have a he is Oleg is currently assembling the links to all the mail messages.

A

He did have a surprise. We were surprised when google season of docs sent the proposals to the jenkins docs mailing list. That was not where we expected them to be sent. We spent expected them to be sent to the organization administrators, but we saw them Oleg detected them and has has been able to get what he needed out of them. So we think we have all the right information so.

A

And the reason that was a surprise is the the list did not accept those postings.

A

And that was really a good thing. Oleg was really worried because we didn't really want everybody's proposals sent by email. That was, we assumed we would review through the website and be able to give feedback and ranking there.

A

Was that clear enough yeah.

B

A

Any other questions.

B

A

All right go: oh, go ahead, lad, he'll,.

D

Just general question I wanted to ask somehow related to what we discussed today about using, for instance, plugin plugins dot txt file in configuration as code while we're building, for instance, our own configuration or Jenkins o.

D

Again, what if somebody knows what would be the best approach or best practice for configuring? This set of plugins I mean the name of plugins and versions.

D

Is there kind of standard approach to doing this, or maybe there is some tool to generate these plugins cortex the file? All we need to base from the previous configuration of running Jenkins application export this file, something like this. What is the best approach for doing this, because general idea is very attractive, very interesting to include this, and this docker image will be configured with all these plugins, but how we generate or how we create this. This text file, which is very simple kind of in format, main value pairs, but but about the contents, how?

D

What is the best way of doing this right.

A

Right very good, so so there is a there. There are several ways to generate that, so several different ways right to generate it to assemble plugins from a list.

A

There's plugins txt, but that requires that you must must enumerate, and- and this is in the docker image right in dr.

A

Very much definition: you must list every plugin, so it does no dependency analysis. It just.

A

Just us list every plugin.

D

Are you sure, didn't correct screen? Oh I.

A

Don't know, let's see what do use a my sharing a screen, I think so. Do you see my typing good question? Yeah, I'm?

A

Okay, oh dear okay, so let me stop the share and I'll restart it just to be sure. Okay, so you should see a Jenkins Docs office hours screen.

D

A

And ultimately, so, ultimately, this one, you must list every plugin, including all dependencies, and there is another way to generate that same file using the plug-in installation manager.

A

Manager tool: this is a tool that was created as part of last year's google Summer of Code, and what it does is you give it a a list of relatively few plugins and it will grab that those plugins and all of their dependencies.

A

But this one is not yet integrated.

A

Into the Jenkins docker image.

A

It's certainly on the list. We want it done there, but it just hasn't been done yet it.

D

Is integrated right now inside Oleg's demo configuration us code.

A

Karela yeah, so so one of the the install plugins dot s age is reads: plugins, dot, txt and downloads files, and it is integrated.

A

Through the docker image, G.

A

So now how to generate that list? I think was your original question glad how to create a plug-in, stop txt file and the technique I've used. This is a terrible thing to admit, but the technique I've used is I, go to my Jenkins installation.

A

So let's go there and in my Jenkins installation, I go to the system info page, so that's manage Jenkins system information and then, if we scroll down after environment variables, there's this big table of plugins I copy and paste from this thing and do a little bit of editing magic to turn it into exactly the things that plugins dot txt needs.

A

So this system info page, is all that I used now, that is, that is a flawed and terribly imperfect way to do things, but it worked for it met the need that I had at the time.

D

So basically, you drive from running image, something that you know it's good. You know correct record, increased right.

A

And that that has the benefit that I absolutely know. I've satisfied all dependencies because Jenkins did the dependency resolution itself.

D

A

I've used another technique, but this one is not not viewed highly favorably by others, so I wouldn't claim that anyone else should do it. I have a git repository that has large file support, enabled and I just checked the plugins into that get large that get LFS repository, but that requires that you paid github extra money each month in order to be allowed to use LFS. It's just so so convenient for me that it was. It was easily worth a few dollars a month that github charges to use large files.

A

I am NOT going to put that in the notes, because it's one that I don't think anybody else should. If you simulate it just happens to work well. For me,.

A

So glad did that address your your question there. Yes.

D

A

I there there are probably better ways to do it and either of those it seems likely. I just don't know what they are and so then be best to ask indicator channels.

A

Any other questions I.

D

Wanted to ask one more question, and this is related to the issues general approach in jenkins project is. This is my understanding that some of the issues are tracked by github.

D

We have github issues for some components and some components they issues attracted by JIRA and I was trying to find out if you have specific component, how to determine the application which tracks these issues or is it github on Kyra and I found solution like if you go to github the project name and component, let's say: Jenkins CI Jenkins, slash issues it will redirect to poles.

D

So there will be no issues on github only two requests. It means all issues are tracked by Zera, or maybe there is some other solution so or approach. I just was wondering know.

A

That you know you described it well, so you're the heuristic is assumed. Jira is the place where the issues are tracked. As your first choice. If there's a question, is JIRA actually being used check the source code repository.

A

And if the issues issues tab is enabled, then it's tracking issues in github. So the example- let's see, let's, let's take two different examples: there's the first, which is the Jenkins, get plugin so plug-in. I maintain you'll, look here and it does looks it does not have getting used to my new Mouse so across the top here code, pull requests, actions, projects, but no issues tab.

A

If we take a different different repository, let's take the Jenkins dot, IO repository, for instance instead, so the one that we use for the website, this one notice that it has an issues tab and has good content in the issues tab. So it is in fact using github to track its issues.

D

A

So this is one where the Jenkins thought IO site comfortably, can use github to track issues, whereas the Jenkins get plugin intentionally does not use github issues, because github issues do not have a simple direct way for us to manage security issues inside github issues, so we've we've had to be more sensitive there.

A

Now now you back to your question Vlad. How can I tell and the answer is check the github source code repository if it doesn't have an issues. Tab they're, certainly not using github issues to track if it does have an issues tab, it's still safe to check. Is there a JIRA project where they are tracking those issues and, let's see I'm, not sure I'll bother opening JIRA for you, but it's the JIRA issues are definitely there.

D

So we have components which which issues are split between two applications where.

A

We have, we have I would say we have components which are in transition and components in transition typically are going from JIRA towards github issues. One of those components in transitions is the Jenkins dot IO site. We initially tracked its issues in JIRA and we found it was much easier for users and much easier for contributors if we switch to that site to use github issues. But that means there are still some some old issues in JIRA that we are slowly closing out.

D

B

At annual presentation, first access and you and all again that speaking about some plugins that are ready for adoption, what that means, what is adoptions to have art that depreciate, plugins or under developers and wants? What is that means adoptions, good.

A

Question very good question, so what does it mean to adopt a plug-in or for a plug-in to be up for adoption?.

A

That's an excellent question so on the plugins site, if we look there, what we'll see is there are labels that are associated with plugins I have to think of one that might be a production I think the subversion plug-in is up for adoption, yeah, sorry meg. What was that backup.

B

There's a bunch of backup, please: okay,.

A

So here is there's a if we look at here's my example. This is the subversion plugin. So if you were a subversion user, you might see that you would see this. This indicator, which says hey this plug-in, is up for adoption and on the adopter plugin site. It tells us what that means, to adopt a plug-in and plug-in maintainer. X' can say: hey, I'm, not planning to maintain this plugin. Therefore they mark it for adoption and other plug-in, maintainer x' may say hey. I would like to adopt that plugin.

A

So you follow this set of steps right here, send an email to the Jenkins developers. Mailing list say: I would like to be made a maintainer and in that in mail you tell them which plugin you want to adopt, pull requests that show that you're credible your github user ID and your Jenkins user ID, and then you go to work on it now.

B

Okay, and- and that is the expectation about it- just approval some PRS or keep maintaining and in the future, offer them to adoption again. I harvested the logic behind so.

A

The assumption is that you will, you will make some positive impact. Usually the reason someone adopts a plug-in is they would like to release a new version of it and in order and in releasing the new version of it, they want to make some changes either. They want to update it to use the latest Jenkins versions or they have some feature they want or some pull request. They want. There's usually some motivation that says I would like this and therefore they adopt the plug-in. So they can do it.

A

We hope that they would then continue maintaining the plugin, but that's that's up to them. They will be listed as the maintainer and then they get to choose. Do I want to continue releasing new versions or not. Okay,.

B

And there is another tag that said abundant heart is the right strap for transition for induction to abandon, and it is so.

A

Abandoned ice island is not actually tagged, I believe, let's.

C

See if we got it, I, don't disturb evasion plugins there. It's that with abandon.

B

C

Okay, let's look okay! So let's see so when you, you click an adoption closure. Take you on her lynnie. Oh I, see what you're saying right. You.

A

Right, oh yeah. What a second but I! Don't gather it's this right here right. So what the concept of an abandoned plug-in is not labeled on the plug-in. It's not it's, not a label! You will see. It is merely an observation made by looking at the commit and maintenance history of the plug-in. So, for example, actually, let's, let's take a very specific example, I think we can find one that Oleg originally wrote that he no longer maintains called the remote loader plug-in. Let's go look at it and it was released.

A

There are plugins that released last, for instance, last released nine years ago and and a plugin that was released that long ago is probably abandoned, see if workflow remote loader is that way. I.

A

Planned remote loader here we go so oh no. This was last released only a year ago, so it's relatively recent, but there are other plugins that I've looked at very recently where the plug-in was last released a very long time ago, and that's that's where we would apply the rules and say: oh, this is probably an abandoned, and so we need to follow the abandoned, plug-in adoption rules.

B

Okay, it's just far four yards. Thank you. Our.

C

B

A

Any other questions.

A

All right, then I'm going to propose that we end our session four day today. Thank you. Next milestone on Google season of Docs is July 30th I believe when the organization proposals will be submitted to Google and then I believe it's two weeks after that, but Google will announce who's been accepted.

A

Thanks very much everybody and thank.

B

A

A copy of it and it'll be posted to the list. Thanks bye.