►
Description
This is a JOINT meeting of the IJC on State Government and the IJC on Local Government at the Capitol Annex.
Live stream provided by LRC Staff.
A
A
Just
to
set
the
stage
we
have
a
relatively
large
amount
of
committee
members
on
this
joint
committee
meeting
between
the
state
and
local
government
committees
in
the
house
and
the
senate.
We
also
know
this
meeting
has
been
opened
up
to
members
who
are
not
members
of
the
committee
as
well,
so
for
those
members
who
are
attending,
but
not
members
of
the
committee.
A
If
you
have
questions
during
any
of
the
presentations,
if
you
could,
please
funnel
those
either
to
me
through
another
member
of
the
committee
or
to
one
of
the
staff
members
either
through
the
chat
function
virtually
or
in
the
room.
We
would
appreciate
that
as
a
way
of
just
controlling
the
flow
of
the
questioning
and
keeping
everything
on
a
time
schedule.
C
L
A
C
C
C
A
A
I
want
to
make
sure
that
we
adhere
to
a
high
level
of
decorum
and
respect
for
everyone,
that's
going
to
be
presenting
today,
and
we
deal
with
the
big
issues
that
we
have
in
front
of
us.
I
think
it's
important
that
we
understand
the
implications
of
the
court
ruling
that
happened
a
week
or
so
ago,
a
week
and
a
half
ago,
roughly,
and
some
of
the
other
implications
of
things
that
are
going
on
with
issues
that
are
that
are
going
on
in
our
state
and
local
government.
A
With
regard
to
the
corrections
field
as
well
with
that,
I
want
to
introduce
our
first
presenter
of
the
day
attorney
general
daniel
cameron
and
his
staff.
If
you
all
would
please
come
forward,
you
all
are
going
to
be
presenting
with
regard
to
the
implications
of
the
supreme
court
ruling
in
case
that
was
before
them,
and
if
you
all
would
just
introduce
yourself
for
the
record,
and
then
you
may
proceed
with
any
testimony
that
you
have
on
the
subject
after
you
all
are
complete
with
the
testimony
we'll
open
it
up
for
questions
of
the
members.
E
Is
it
working
now
all
right?
Well,
thank
you,
chair
to
chairman
meredith
and
all
those
others
on
the
committee
good
morning,
and
I'm
certainly
happy
to
give
an
update
to
this
committee
on
the
supreme
court's
decision
less
than
two
weeks
ago
in
cameron
versus
bashir.
The
rule
of
law
prevailed
in
that
case
and
the
supreme
court's
decision
is
a
win
for
legislative
prerogatives
and
representative
government.
E
The
governor
initiated
cameron,
v
beshear
back
in
february
when
he
filed
suit
and
franklin
circuit
court
seeking
to
invalidate
senate
bill,
one
senate
bill
two
and
house
bill,
one
which
was
the
newly
enacted
legislation,
placing
checks
and
balances
on
the
governor's
emergency
powers.
The
governor
asked
the
franklin
circuit
court
to
enjoin.
The
legislation
and
the
circuit
court
did
so
first
by
entering
a
temporary
restraining
order
and
later,
in
march,
a
temporary
injunction
against
those
measures.
E
After
the
general
assembly
enacted
house
joint
resolution
77,
the
franklin
circuit
court
expanded
the
temporary
injunction
to
include
that
legislation
as
well
after
the
franklin
circuit
court
entered
a
temporary
injunction.
My
office
asked
the
court
of
appeals
for
relief
from
that
injunction
recognizing
the
great
public
importance
of
the
case.
The
court
of
appeals
recommended
that
the
matter
be
transferred
to
the
supreme
court.
E
First,
the
supreme
court
looked
at
whether
any
of
the
parties
to
the
lawsuit
would
be
irreparably
harmed
by
a
decision
one
way
or
the
other.
The
supreme
court
found
that
this
factor
went
against
the
governor.
The
governor
claimed
that
he
would
suffer
harm
because
the
new
legislation,
if
it
went
into
effect,
would
reduce
his
power.
The
supreme
court
rejected
that,
because
the
constitution
does
not
expressly
give
the
governor
any
emergency
powers,
nor
does
he
have
any
implied
or
inherent
powers
under
the
constitution.
E
Thus,
his
emergency
powers
are
purely
statutory
meaning.
He
has
no
right
to
exercise
emergency
powers
that
have
not
been
given
to
him
by
this
esteemed
body.
This
means
that
he
is
not
injured
in
any
legal
sense
when
the
general
assembly
places
limits
or
checks
and
balances
on
emergency
powers.
On
the
other
hand,
the
supreme
court
found
that
the
public
would
be
injured
if
the
challenge
statutes
did
not
go
into
effect.
It
is
a
well-established
rule
of
law
that
the
non-enforcement
of
a
statute
constitutes
irreparable
harm
to
the
public
and
the
government.
E
The
second
factor
the
supreme
court
looked
at
was
whether
the
governor's
claim
involved.
What
we
refer
to
as
a
substantial
question
on
the
merits,
this
factor
essentially
asks
whether
a
claim
has
any
legal
merit
to
it
and
the
supreme
court
determined
generally
that
the
governor's
claim
had
no
legal
merit.
The
supreme
court
first
took
up
the
governor's
claim
that
the
new
legislation
violates
the
separation
of
powers,
because
the
governor
only
has
the
emergency
powers
given
to
him
by
the
general
assembly.
E
The
supreme
court
said
it
does
not
violate
the
separation
of
powers
for
the
legislature
to
define
and
place
limits
on
the
governor's
emergency
powers.
The
supreme
court
next
looked
at
the
governor's
claim
that
the
new
legislation
infringes,
on
his
discretion,
to
call
special
sessions
by
limiting
declared
emergencies
to
30
days.
In
the
governor's
view,
the
30-day
limit
will
force
him
to
call
special
sessions,
thereby
taking
away
his
discretion.
E
The
supreme
court
expressed
great
skepticism
about
this
claim,
finding
that
the
assertion
that
the
governor
would
be
forced
to
call
a
special
session
every
30
days
is
not
credible.
Nevertheless,
the
supreme
court
felt
that
it
did
not
have
enough
information
about
this
claim
to
opine
on
its
merits,
so
the
supreme
court
declined
to
take
to
make
a
representative
pronouncement
concern
concerning
the
constitutionality
of
the
30-day
limitation.
E
Next,
the
supreme
court
evaluated
the
governor's
claim
that
senate
bill
1
violates
his
executive
supremacy
under
section
69
of
the
constitution
by
requiring
the
attorney
general's
consent
to
any
suspension
of
statutes
during
emergencies.
The
supreme
court
rejected
this
claim
out
of
hand
concluding
that
sb1
section
4
constitutes
a
valid
exercise
of
the
general
assembly's
authority
to
suspend
statutes.
The
supreme
court
then
turned
to
the
claim
that
the
new
legislation
is
arbitrary.
The
supreme
court
rejected
that
claim
too
finding
that
the
governor
has
no
standing
to
make
such
a
claim.
E
E
After
evaluating
the
merits
of
the
governor's
claims,
the
final
element
of
the
supreme
court's
analysis
involved,
balancing
the
equities
and
the
public's
interest.
It
had
little
trouble
in
determining
that
both
the
equities
and
the
public's
interest
weighed
in
favor
of
adherence
to
the
new
legislation.
E
E
In
the
meantime,
the
circuit
court
has
instructed
the
parties
to
provide
it
with
a
status
report
no
later
than
september
7,
including
any
agreed
order
to
dissolve
the
injunction
as
a
reminder.
The
issue
in
front
of
the
supreme
court
was
whether
the
franklin
circuit
court's
temporary
injunction
was
proper.
The
decision
is
presidential,
meaning
that
its
reasoning
is
binding
on
lower
courts
and
on
all,
but
one
claim
the
supreme
court's
reasoning
leaves
no
room
to
conclude
anything
else,
but
that
the
statutes
are
constitutional.
E
The
only
claim
that
the
supreme
court
did
not
find
to
be
meritless
is
the
one
about
the
30-day
limitation
on
emergencies
and,
far
from
finding
that
that
claim
to
have
merit,
the
supreme
court
simply
concluded
that
it
needed
more
information
before
making
a
decision
on
all
other
claims.
The
supreme
court
found
that
the
governor's
claims
have
no
merit.
That's
why
the
supreme
court
did
not
officially
declare
the
statutes
constitutional.
E
Its
reasoning
will
likely
lead
to
that
result,
with
the
only
potential
exception
being
that
30-day
limitation,
and
I
am
confident
that
provision
will
be
upheld
eventually
too.
Based
on
what
the
supreme
court
said
in
its
ruling.
The
only
way
the
governor
could
prevail
on
his
other
claims
would
be
for
the
supreme
court
to
reverse
itself,
and
that
would
be
exceptionally
unusual,
especially
considering
that
its
decision
against
the
governor
and
affirming
this
a
body's
authority
was
unanimous.
E
So
what
does
all
this
mean?
And
how
does
it
inform
what
you
all
are
doing
here
today
and
we'll
be
doing
in
the
weeks
and
months
ahead?
It
means
that,
on
or
before
september
13th,
the
franklin
circuit
court's
injunction
will
dissolve
rendering
senate
bill.
1
senate
bill
2
house
bill
1
and
house
joint
resolution,
77
enforceable
in
the
meantime
and
beyond
the
boone
county
circuit
court's
injunction,
precludes
the
governor
from
doing
anything
that
would
contravene
or
violate
these
laws.
E
The
supreme
court
spoke
clearly
in
its
opinion
when
it
said,
as
we
have
noted
time
and
again
so
many
times
that
we
need
not
provide
citation.
The
general
assembly
establishes
the
public
policy
of
the
commonwealth.
With
this
language,
the
supreme
court
reaffirmed
the
legislature's
unique
ability,
your
unique
ability
to
represent
the
diverse
needs
of
the
commonwealth.
E
I'm
hopeful
that
the
governor
and
the
general
assembly
can
find
consensus
on
what
is
needed
to
protect
kentuckians
moving
forward,
and
at
this
time
I'm
happy
to
answer
any
questions
that
you
might
have.
I
also
want
to
make
note
that
my
solicitor
general
chad
meredith,
is
here
with
me
as
well
and
appreciate
his
service
to
the
commonwealth
and
appreciate
you
all
and
I'm
happy
to
answer
again
any
questions
that
you
might
have.
Thank
you.
A
A
D
D
I've
read
the
opinion
obviously,
and
was
pleased
with
the
result,
to
give
the
legislature
at
least
it's
to
recognize
the
the
role
that
we
have
also
that
we're
an
equal
in
a
branch
of
government,
but
the
concern
I
had
was,
I
think
some
of
the
comments
were
made
by
the
supreme
court
regarding
the
judge
in
franklin
county,
and
I
think
the
term
was
they
were.
He
was
injecting
his
politics
into
his
decision-making.
D
If
I'm
not
mistaken,
it's
something
along,
I'm,
probably
paraphrasing,
but
something
along
those
lines,
and
so
I'd
like
to
get
your
opinion
on
your
take.
At
least
in
that
regard.
I
know
that
obviously
there's
a
certain
code
of
conduct
from
our
judges
what
they
should
be
doing,
how
they
should
apply
the
law
that
they
shouldn't
inject
politics
into
their
decision
making
when
interpreting
the
law.
D
What
that
means,
I
think,
there's
some
that
would
argue
that
that's
become
a
common
theme
for
that
judge
in
particular,
and
there's
concerns
that
you
know
that's
going
to
be
continued
going
forward.
What
can
be
done
in
terms
of
that
is
there
some
kind
of
a
review
that
gets
done
for
judges
who
are
injecting
their
politics
into
that?
Maybe
you
can
comment
into
that
and
provide
a
bit
of
guidance
for
members
of
the
legislature
in
that
regard,.
E
Well,
I
appreciate
the
question
senator
alvarado.
What
I
will
say
is
that
I
think
it's
it's
my
responsibility
to
make
sure
that
I'm
respectful
for
for
all
of
our
judiciary
and
will
continue
to
be
so.
I
vigorously
disagree
with
decisions
that
are
made,
whether
it
be
at
the
the
circuit
court
level,
court
of
appeals
and
even
the
supreme
court.
In
fact,
you
know
I
I
don't
come
here
today
to
to
our
the
horn
of
our
office.
We
lost
in
front
of
the
state
supreme
court
7-0
last
year.
E
E
But
what
I
will
say
is
that
I
think
the
supreme
court,
when
they
looked
at
this
case
in
particular,
and
the
injunctions
that
had
been
rendered
by
the
circuit
court,
the
franklin
circuit
court,
what
they
look
is
whether
there
is
a
clear
abuse
of
discretion
and
they
made
it.
I
think
well
known
that
there
was
a
clear
abuse
of
discretion
in
the
determination
that
was
made
at
the
franklin
circuit
court
and
I'll
point
you
to
just
one
sentence
in
particular,
say
in
this
instance.
E
Speaking
about
the
injunction
itself.
We
find
that
the
trial
courts-
and
this
is
the
the
court's
words
issuance
of
injunctive
relief-
was
unsupported
by
sound
legal
principles,
occasion
by
an
erroneous
application
of
the
law,
and
it's
not
uncommon
for
trial
courts
or
even
court
of
appeals
for
that
matter,
to
get
things
wrong
or
for
reversals
to
occur.
E
But
I
I
think
that
hopefully
this
will
inform
the
franklin
circuit
court
as
it
proceeds
on
any
cases
related
to
this.
I
think
the
the
robust
way
in
which
our
state
supreme
court
made
the
point
that
you
all
hold
the
keys
in
terms
of
statutory
authority
and
the
ability
to
change
the
emergency
powers
is
really
important,
and
I
think
it's
something
that
should
empower
you
all.
As
you
consider
your
role
in
how
we
continue
to
fight
this
virus.
M
Thank
you,
mr
chair,
and
thank
you
attorney
general.
It's
it's
great
to
have
you
here
and
I
certainly
agree
with
not
agreeing
with
all
the
opinions
that
are
issued
by
our
courts
and
having
read
opinions
for
a
couple
decades
here.
I
wish
I
had
more
thoroughly
gone
through
some
of
this
opinion,
but
there's
this
this
very
general
question,
this
very
tension
that
exists
related
to
special
powers
or
the
legislative
having
the
power
to
call
itself
into
session.
M
But
what
it
does
set
up
is
that
if
the
legislature
and
the
executive
branch
works
collaboratively,
there
has
to
be
a
result
of
that
work
and
that
result
is
either
some
kind
of
amendment
or
change
to
the
law.
What
has
to
happen
as
a
result
of
the
collaboration?
What
what?
What
would?
How
do
we
put
that
into
effect.
M
M
M
E
E
Notably,
I
think
the
the
supreme
court
made
it
it
clear
that
that
discretion
resides
with
the
legislature.
It
does
not
inherently
reside
with
the
governor,
so
I
hope
that
you
all
can
come
to
some
agreement
in
in
terms
of
the
governor's
office
about
how
ultimately,
you
will
handle
additional
measures
to
to
take
in
confronting
covid19,
but
as
to
your
specific
question,
whether
you
all
decide
after
30
or
whether
the
governor
decides,
I
hope
you
all
can
make
a
determination
about
that
before
it
is
required.
E
M
A
E
That
is
expressly
his
expressed
power
of
the
governor
in
in
the
constitution.
So
I
to
your
point
about
I
mean
he
he
can
call
the
special
session
whatever
again,
I
hope
that
you
all
you
know,
are
able
to
have
these
conversations
beforehand
and
if
it
makes
sense
for
him
to
call
the
special
session
to
confront
covet
19
or
whatever
else
that
that
that
occurs.
M
Thank
you,
and
if
I
can
mr
chair,
the
tension,
there
obviously
is
that
if
there
truly
is
an
emergency
and
there
there
are
many
other
kinds
of
emergencies-
and
I
talk
about
this
as
a
former
fire
chief
and
having
that
ability
to
effectively
put
the
emergency
plan
into
place
and
what
it
takes
between
the
legislature
and
the
executive
branch
to
put
a
plan
into
place
takes
time
days.
Collaboration
hours
and
we
are
in
the
middle
of
an
emergency,
and
that
emergency
is
that
necessary
that
needed
that
there
would
be
a
continuous
plan.
M
M
A
J
You,
mr
chairman,
and
thank
you
attorney
general
cameron
and
mr
meredith
for
your
succinct
and
concise
testimony.
I
have
two
questions:
how
long
does
the
franklin
court
have
to
lift
the
injunction
and
does
a
a
judge
have
the
right
to
make
conditions
when
he
has
ordered
to
do
something
from
the
supreme
court.
E
Well,
the
I
think
the
supreme
court's
decision
is
in
force
after
21
days,
as
I
mentioned
earlier,
and
I
I
guess
is
that
september
no
lighter
than
13
yeah
november
no
later
than
september
13th.
As
to
your
question
about
conditions,
I
think
that
would
be
in
contravention
of
what
the
supreme
court
said.
If,
if
your
question
is
about
putting
conditions
on
the
dissolution,
is
that,
if
I
understand
you
correctly,
so
I
don't,
I
don't
see
any
room
for
him
to
place
conditions
on
the
dissolution.
E
K
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
want
to
take
this
moment
if
I
might
to
pause
quickly
in
not
too
long,
but
to
say
this
is
a
seminal
moment
in
the
relationship
between
the
legislature
and
the
government.
The
governor,
the
executive
branch
we've
had
a
number
of
those
throughout
our
history.
This
is
a
seminal
moment.
K
The
governor
was
arguing
that
he
alone
got
to
declare
when
an
emergency
existed.
He
alone
got
to
determine
how
to
respond
to
that
emergency
and
that
he
alone
got
to
determine
how
long
his
declared
emergency
existed.
The
supreme
court
said
no,
and
they
did
it.
I'm
an
attorney.
I
used
to
be
the
chief
of
staff
and
the
general
counsel
for
the
kentucky
supreme
court.
I've
been
in
the
room
for
a
number
of
years
listening
to
their
deliberations.
K
K
It
said,
as
we
have
mentioned
time
and
again
so
many
times,
that
we
need
not
give
a
citation
the
general
assemblies
the
assembly
establishes
the
public
policy
of
the
commonwealth
of
kentucky.
As
general,
you
noted
in
your
opening
remarks.
That's
a
strong
statement.
The
opinion
was
replete
with
those
types
of
statements,
but
I
want
to
mention
I'm
an
attorney.
I
know
not
everybody
on
this
panel
on
attorneys,
and
I
want
to
highlight
how
strong
this
opinion
is.
K
K
They
also
said
that
they
addressed
some
of
the
governor's
arguments
and
he
said
the
governor
was
saying
we're
irreparably
harmed
and
the
supreme
court
went
the
other
way.
They
said.
No,
you
are
irreparably
harming
the
people
in
a
quote
from
page
17.,
the
supreme
court
says
in
fact,
non-enforcement
of
a
duly
enacted
statute,
which
is
what
the
government
governor
was
doing,
constitutes
irreparable
harm
to
the
public
and
the
government.
It
was
the
governor
who
was
irreparably
harming
the
people
of
kentucky
by
his
decisions.
K
These
are
the
words
of
the
kentucky
supreme
court
in
the
so
it
was
in
the
context
of
an
injunction.
It
was
this
stark
language
and
they
had
to
find
remember.
This
is
not
the
supreme
court
taking
the
case
saying
which
side
do
we
believe
in
order
to
rule
for
our
side,
the
legislative
side
that
general
you
you
so
so
so
well
supported
through
your
your
solicitor
general
who
did
a
spectacular
job
as
he
always
does
in
the
supreme
court.
They
had
to
find
that
the
franklin
circuit
judge
abused
his
discretion.
K
That
is
a
mighty
mighty
big
hurdle,
the
context
of
injunctions
they
found
that
he
abused
the
discretion
and
they
they
found
that
the
governor
was
irreparably
harming
the
people
of
kentucky
by
his
actions.
I
didn't
see
that
in
the
news
stories
it
ought
to
be
there
we've
been
saying
it
for
a
long
time
last
point
and
then
my
question
I
want
to
address
my
friend
representative
wheatley's
comment
about
what
about
the
do.
We
take
away
the
governor's
right
to
call
a
special
session.
This
was
addressed.
All
you
have
to
do
is
read
the
opinion.
K
This
was
addressed
on
page
21,
where
the
supreme
court
says.
Furthermore,
the
assertion
that
the
governor
would
be
forced
to
call
a
special
session
every
30
days
is
not
credible.
That's
not
credible,
so
that
argument's
been
considered
and
unanimously
been
thrown
to
the
side
by
the
kentucky
supreme
court.
I
will
ask
I'm
going
to
say
I
thank
the
supreme
court
for
being
so
strong
because,
finally,
after
18
long
months
as
the
governor
admitted
the
next
day
in
his
press
conference,
it
brought
him
or
the
monday.
The
opinion
was
on
a
saturday.
K
It
brought
him
to
the
table
and
he
said
we're
I'm
going
to
finally
give
the
legislators
information
that
I've
been
able
to
see
that
they
haven't
and
I
hope
they
make
the
right
decision
and
what
it's
done
to
the
supreme
court's
credit
is.
It's
led
the
governor
to
the
table
to
discuss
these
issues
and
I'm
informed
that
my
leadership
in
the
house
has
had
good
conversations
with
the
governor
and
senate
leadership,
and
I'm
happy
about
that,
because
we
have
a
real
situation.
K
We
need
to
address
I'd
like
for
you
to
comment,
if
you
might
on
the
the
magnitude
of
the
opinion
in
the
moment
that
we're
in
and
how
important
the
opinion
was,
to
decades
and
decades,
from
now
to
establish
the
right
of
the
legislature
to
be
the
policy-making
body
and
to
keep
the
future
governors
from
saying
I
alone
get
to
declare
an
emergency,
I
alone
get
to
determine
how
to
respond
to
the
emergency.
I
alone
get
to
determine
how
long
my
declared
emergency
exists.
No
one
can
check
me.
Can
you
comment
on
that?
E
A
G
Thayer,
thank
you,
mr
chairman
general
cameron,
general
meredith.
It's
great
to
see
both
of
you
before
this
committee.
I
feel
like
this
day
has
been
a
long
time
coming
for
the
first
time
during
my
time.
In
this
body
we
have
a.
We
have
an
attorney
general
willing
to
defend
the
actions
of
the
general
assembly
and
it's
not
about
us
per
se
as
138
individuals.
It's
about
the
people
we
represent.
G
G
We
are
by
very
definition,
closer
to
the
people.
We
are
the
people's
branch
of
government
and
I
I
feel
like
if
a
couple
of
people
could
have
just
watched
some
of
those
old
grammar
rock
videos
that
I
watched
as
a
kid.
We
could
have
saved
ourselves.
A
lot
of
trouble-
and
specifically
I
refer
to
the
ones
called
how
a
bill
becomes-
a
law
and
my
favorite
no
more
kings,
because
that's
how
the
governor's
acted
for
the
last
month
and
a
half
and
we
tried
to
engage
with
him
and
finally,
it
took
bills.
G
Passed
vetoes
vetoes
overridden
court
decisions
in
this
final
decision
that
led
us
to
this
day
into
his
credit
within
48
hours
of
the
court
decision
being
rendered.
He
did
begin
meetings
with
house
and
senate
leadership
and
we
are
doing
exactly
what
you
said
collaborating
we
are
collaborating
with
the
governor
and
his
staff.
G
G
It's
what
all
of
us
thought
right
from
the
start
and
if
we
just
could
have
had
collaboration
from
the
governor
one
time
he
tried
right
before
the
the
second
shutdown
to
his
credit
he
tried,
but
I
asked
what
took
him
so
long.
He
got
offended
and
we
never
heard
from
him
again
until
after
the
court
decision
recently.
G
But
I
I
have
a
question
about
what
occurred
from
the
time
the
vetoes
were
overridden
on
senate
bills,
one
and
two
house
bill
1
and
house
joint
resolution.
77
and
the
court
decision
a
few
weeks
ago,
the
governor
did
not
follow
the
laws
that
had
gone
into
effect.
They
all
had
emergency
clauses,
they
went
into
effect,
he
sued,
they
were
stayed.
He
did
not
follow
those
laws
during
that
intervening
time
period.
E
Well,
I
I
certainly
think
that
there
can
be
a
debate
about
that.
For
instance,
I
think
the
governor,
if
you
look
at
it
from
his
perspective,
says
I
got
a
stay
in
franklin
circuit
court.
Meanwhile,
folks,
in
my
perspective,
might
think
that
what
happened
in
boone
county,
which
I
noted
as
well
enjoying
the
governor
from
doing
anything
that
was
inconsistent
with
the
measures
that
you
all
passed.
E
I
think
what
ultimately
the
supreme
court
has
done,
has
made
it
very
clear
that
you
all
again
are
in
the
driver's
seat
that
the
governor
cannot
contravene
the
measures
that
you
all
have
taken
here,
and
you
know
at
some
point.
I
think
there
will
have
to
be
a
conversation
about
in
that
intervening
period
about
whether
he
was
faithfully
executing
the
laws
of
the
commonwealth
of
kentucky.
E
I
know
that
has
been
maybe
articulated
in
the
boone
county
case
and
but
you
know,
I'm
not
going
to
say
or
or
cast
judgment
on
the
governor
here
without
taking
it
under
advisement.
But
it
is
an
open
question
about
what
happened
in
that
intervening
period
and
whether
the
governor
was
faithfully
executing
the
laws
as
you
all,
as
you
all
prescribed
them.
G
A
J
J
I'm
sure
we're
gonna
probably
address
that,
maybe
in
this
special
session,
if
it's
called,
have
you
given
out
any
opinions
on
that?
Has
anybody
wrote
you
to
get
an
opinion
from
a
business
to
I
know
we
gave
them
some
liability
protection
during
the
last
session
and
it
seems
like
all
of
a
sudden
it
reverses
and
they
start
taking
maybe
advantage
of
that
liability
protection
to
say
now
we
can
tell
you
if
you
don't
get
the
vaccine,
you
can't
come
into
our
facility
and
so
being
in
business
for
25
years
myself
in
the
private
business.
J
I
find
it
disturbing,
maybe
that
that
the
government
would
come
and
tell
me
how
to
run
my
private
business.
But
then
again
I
would
want
to
protect
as
a
representative
the
employees
that
are
being
told
they
have
to
go
the
house
because
they
haven't
had
the
vaccine.
So
my
question
to
you
is:
do
you
have
an
opinion
on
it
or
have
you
had
researchers
to
look
at
it?
I'm
sure
I'm
not
the
only
one.
That's
heard
this.
I'm
sure
you've
maybe
had
maybe
a
few
emails
yourself
on
it.
A
A
E
You
know,
I
think,
a
focus
for
our
office
and
again
just
something
that,
as
I
as
I
think,
through
sort
of
constitutional
implications
is,
you
know,
does
that
you
know
mandate
have
exceptions
for
religious
or
any
other
faith
component
or
other
exceptions
that
are
in
place,
but
without
looking
specifically
at
a
a
of
a
actual
opinion
request.
That's
come
into
our
office
or
specific
facts
related
to
a
vaccine
requirement
in
a
private
business.
I
wouldn't
be
able
to
comment
further
than
that,
sir.
A
E
I'll,
let
yeah
it
allows
local
governments
yeah,
and
so
that's.
What
I
was
referring
to
with
representative
wheatley
is
that
there
is
a
a
mechanism
by
which
there
can
be
an
extension
of
the
30-day
period
that
at
the
local
level,
for
you
know
up
to
90
up
to
90
days.
I
believe
up
to
90
days.
So
I
don't,
if
you
know,
we
can
obviously
confer
about
that.
More.
But
again,
the
ability
to
enter
into
a
special
session
is
the
governor's.
He
loses
no
discretion
to
to
do
that.
E
A
I
think,
specifically,
the
citation
in
the
the
law
states
that
a
local
legislative
body
or
local
executive
within
their
jurisdiction
can
request
that
extension.
If
I
read
that
correctly,
that's
correct
turn.
John
kramer.
Thank
you
all
for
being
here
and
your
presentation.
It
has
been
very,
very
informative.
We
appreciate
your
all's
help.
Yes,.
A
A
B
B
B
B
My
jail
has
about
a
17
million
dollar
budget.
This
year
I
am
the
largest
employer
in
our
county
for
any
governmental
entity,
so
it
is
for
anybody
that
has
a
full
service
jail.
It's
a
big
deal,
it's
very,
very
expensive
and
our
county
fiscal
courts
are
tasked
with
that
by
statute
and
they
have
very
little
opportunity
for
any
relief
for
those
costs
that
are
borne
by
the
local
fiscal
courts
to
drop
back
a
little
bit.
When
I
talk
about
cost.
B
And
this
one
hits
pretty
close
to
home
at
campbell
county.
We
lost
two
souls,
so
that
was
the
biggest
cost.
I
lost
a
20
plus
year
sergeant
and
I
lost
a
two
or
three
year
deputy
to
covet,
so
that
was
our
largest
cost
and
I
know
jails
throughout
the
state
have
suffered
that
same,
but
that
that
was
a
big
deal
at
campbell
county.
B
Another
issue
of
consequences
we
have
to
recognize
in
in
this
one
I
think
escapes
a
lot
of
people.
You
know,
as
elected
jailer
you'd
think
I
would
have
some
control
over
the
jail
right.
Well,
we
don't
we
don't
control
who
comes
in.
We
don't
control
how
long
they're
there
we
don't
control
when
they
get
out.
I
don't
control
my
own
budget.
I
am
extremely
fortunate
in
campbell
county
because
I
have
a
wonderful
fiscal
court
and
a
wonderful
judge
exec,
but
again
all
of
that's
set
by
statute.
B
Again
as
a
result
of
the
the
lack
of
control
that
we
have,
I
will
tell
you
that
many
jails
and
actually
most
jails,
aren't
equipped
to
deal
with
quarantine
or
other
issues
that
are
a
result
of
covet
my
jail.
I
have,
of
course
we
went
forever
and
didn't
have
any
issues.
Then.
All
of
a
sudden
I
had
200
people
with
covid.
Within
a
month
I
was
covered
free.
B
I
am
without
three
deputies
again
because
they're
coveted
positive-
and
I
have
a
couple
of
people
out,
because
family
members
are
covet
positive,
so
that
these
intangible
costs
that
you
don't
see
from
the
outside
are
are
always
heavily
personnel
related
it
and
it's
very
difficult
to
hire
people
to
come
into
a
jail
anyway.
But
you
add
covet
to
that
and
it's
neon
impossible.
B
B
Again,
the
issues
I
was
going
to
talk
about
most
jails
and
again
I'm
very
fortunate,
because
I
have
18
isolation
cells.
I
have
dorms
that
will
hold
up
to
64
people
each
that
that's
a
suggested
capacity.
If
you
talk
to
corrections
about
it,
but
then
I
have
a
multitude
of
other
sales
sales
of
various
sizes
anywhere
from
five
up
to
25
or
30..
B
I'm
lucky
most
jails.
Don't
have
that
opportunity
or
don't
have
those
another
big
issue.
Of
course,
and
especially
with
the
number
of
people
I
have
missing,
is
overtime
and
again
with
covid
overtime
has
been
crazy.
As
I
said
a
minute
ago,
staff
shortage
shortages
are
always
bad
right.
Now,
they're
horrible
and
again,
I'm
very
fortunate
in
campbell
county,
and
I
just
brought
some
stats,
but
since
cove
had
started
and
I'll
just
pick
a
couple
out
here,
but
in
july
of
20,
my
my
monthly
overtime
bill
was
eighty
thousand
dollars
which
is
excessive.
B
But
when
I'm
that
short
on
staff,
my
fiscal
court
has
to
step
up
and
pump
that
money
into
the
jail
this
year
again
I'll
just
stick
with
july.
My
overtime
budget
was
30
000
and
then
totals
for
420.
I
spent
698
543
just
in
overtime
so
far
for
21
601
312,
just
in
overtime.
That's
on
top
of
my
my
actual
personnel
expenses.
B
This,
the
staff
shortages
again
when,
when
you
try
to
hire
people,
you
know
it's
the
good
old
days
of
government
work
where
you
had
a
good
retirement.
You
didn't
get
paid
as
much.
You
know
we're
fighting
against
all
that,
but
now,
on
top
of
all
that
for
jails,
we
have
volumes
of
overtime
that
we
have
to
fill.
B
I
have
people
quitting
because
they
can't
take
a
vacation.
They
haven't
been
able
to
have
a
vacation
for
over
two
years.
Now
they
have
lost
days
off.
We
have
on-call
people
every
week
that
we
have
to
call
in
and,
of
course,
that
gets
work
worse
as
time
goes
on
and
then,
if
you
think
about
it
realistically
add
on
top
of
that
that
these
folks
are
working
inside
of
a
closed
environment.
You
know
the
air
circulation
is
constant
within
that
environment
and
they're.
B
B
B
Now
we
recently
started
doing
them
a
little
bit
ago,
but
now
with
covet
making
the
comeback
that
it
is-
and
we
did
this
by
agreement
with
jailers
right,
so
we're
probably
looking
at
having
to
shut
these
down
again
because
all
we're
doing
if
we
continue-
and
there
are
a
few
folks
out
there-
that
will
send
you,
somebody
that
has
coveted
they
won't
even
tell
you
about
it.
Hopefully,
and-
and
I
know
for
a
fact
that
it's
only
a
couple,
but
it
does
happen
and
we
have
to
deal
with
it.
B
The
other
thing
we
had
to
do
was
we
had
to
implement
and
we
had
to
pay
for
virtual
courts
and
that's
a
big
deal,
because
if
you
don't
have
virtual
courts,
then
we
have
to
transport,
because
some
judges
want
to
have
that
body
in
front
of
them,
particularly
for
pleas,
but
they
also
want
to
have
them
before
them.
So
they
can
see
them
if
they're
are
having
problems
with
their
attorney.
B
But
we
have
to
do
this
not
only
in
my
county,
but
I
because
of
the
number
of
state
inmates
that
I
hold.
I
have
to
do
that
for
counties
throughout
the
entire
commonwealth.
So
it's
a
big
deal
and
it's
expensive.
I
hired
my
own
I.t
person
to
deal
just
with
that
issue,
so
that
was
a
sixty
thousand
dollar
hit,
plus
benefits
plus
the
actual
equipment.
It
was
a
big
deal
for
us
in
campbell
county,
but
you
know
I
felt
like
it
was.
B
B
Again,
over
the
year
with
courts,
we
had
to
institute
new
policies
again
virtual
court
covet
testing.
You
know
we're
doing
that.
We
have
to
do
that
for
courts
all
over
the
state,
particularly
like
this
morning.
You
know
federal
courts
want
the
responses
on
wednesday.
Well,
I'm
driving
down
here
this
morning
at
7,
30
and
they're
already
calling
me
why
don't
we
have
them
yet?
Well,
you
know
I
have
400
inmates
to
test
we'll
get
them
as
quickly
as
we
can
dealing
with.
B
B
Those
are
our
programs
that
the
state
and
that
local
jails
really
want
to
have
really
need
to
have
right
that
these
are
the
folks
in
our
society
that
want
to
talk
to
people
from
their
churches.
We
can't
let
them
in
especially
at
the
height
of
covet.
I
just
talked
about
starting
it
again
and
had
to
shut
it
down
again
because
of
the
problems
that
we're
having
now
with
covet
and
in
the
new
variant.
B
All
of
these
changes
were
made
with
no
extra
funding
from
the
commonwealth.
Our
revenue
streams
during
the
pandemic
have
taken
a
drastic
hit,
leaving
our
budget
budgets
pretty
meek
and
again.
I've
got,
and
I
make
copies
of
this
stuff
for
you
guys
if
you
want
it
afterwards,
but
you
know
with
with
overtime
another
thing
that
I
did
was
I
paid
and
thank
god
for
the
county
police
department.
B
B
I
lost
1.6
million
dollars
on
revenue
that
I
would
have
gotten
from
state
inmates,
and
I've
got
that
broken
down
here
by
months.
If
anybody
has
any
interest,
I
can
share
that
with
you
as
well
again
I'll
get
to.
We
had
some
good
news
spent
some
time
late
at
night
on
telephone
with
senator
mcdaniel
and
some
folks
from
the
legislature
and
head
house
bill
556
passed
that
was
supposed
to
allow
us
in
our
fiscal
courts.
B
B
The
truth
is
not
a
single
county
facility
has
re
received
any
of
the
funding
outlined
in
house
bill
556
and
the
department
of
corrections
has
recently
communicated
with
us
that
expenses
are
not
recoverable
without
a
line
item
itemization
of
these
expenses,
so
I
mean
think
about
that
from
a
realistic
standpoint.
All
of
the
things
that
I
have
mentioned
are
things
that
we
deal
with
on
a
daily
basis,
whether
it's
overtime,
people
missing.
B
All
of
that
has
been
substantially
exacerbated,
but
I
didn't
start
tracking
that
and
a
lot
of
those
things
there's
no
way
for
a
jail
and
I've
got
great
staff.
My
fiscal
court
takes
care
of
a
lot
of
the
things
that
have
to
do
with
my
funding,
so
it'd
be
easier
for
me
than
a
lot
of
people,
but
you
take
these
smaller
jails
that
are
costing
your
county
a
ton
of
money.
They
don't
have
the
ability
to
do
that.
They
don't
have
the
people
to.
J
B
B
A
I
don't
want
to
cut
you
off,
but
I
know
we've
got
several
questions.
If
you
don't
mind
to
move
into
the
question
phase,
we've
still
got
a
few
another
presentation
with
corrections
and
I
don't
want
to
cut
it
short
as
well,
but
I
appreciate
your
information,
certainly
and
and
if
you're,
okay,
we'll
open
up
to
questions.
A
G
B
Yes,
sir,
and
keep
in
mind
too
that
I
can
only
speak
to
what
happens
at
the
campbell
county
detention
center.
Each
jailer
has
the
ability
to
make
those
rules
himself,
although
in
discussions
I
know,
a
lot
of
them
are
following
the
same
suit,
but
at
campbell
county,
particularly
during
the
height
of
covet,
and
recently
we've
gone
to
a
mass
mandate.
B
I
believe
it
works,
especially
in
a
closed
environment
where
you
have
people
on
top
of
each
other
24
7.,
so
we've
gone
to
a
mask.
We've
also
gone
to
the
temperature
taking
so
people
come
in
and
again
I've
heard
good
and
bad,
but
you
know
what
it's
a
safety
precaution.
It
doesn't
cost
me,
but
buying
a
half
a
dozen
or
so
thermometers,
so
we're
taking
people's
temperatures
coming
in
and
coming
out.
The
other
things
that
we
have
done
is
we've
stopped
in-person
visitation.
B
B
B
G
B
Again,
I
can
only
speak
to
my
own
facility
and
we
are
something
over
the
50
mark
and
we're
continuing
to
offer
them
every
day.
Along
those
same
lines,
I
will
throw
out
that
we've
had
over
200
of
our
inmates,
which
I'm
very
proud
of,
because
it
you
know
they're.
They
think
it's
a
conspiracy
right
to
track
them,
but
we've
had
over
200
of
our
inmates
and
a
lot
of
those
state
inmates
get
the
vaccination
and.
B
I
I
don't
even
know
that
from
my
own
facility,
I
can
tell
you
sitting
here
that
I
know
I've
had
at
least
a
dozen
that
have
had
covered
and
have
recovered,
and
again
I
had
two
that
died,
but
for
the
other
facilities
I
apologize.
I
don't
have
that
information
and
didn't
have
the
opportunity
before
this
to
get
it.
Okay,.
N
Yes,
thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
it's
good
to
see
you
jim
thanks
for
coming
to
to
present.
That
was
a
very
thorough
presentation
and
I
really
feel
for
you
knowing
how
how
much
you
care
about
your
your
jail
and
and
campbell
county.
So
you
know
it
sounds
like
there's
a
lot
of
work
that
we
can
do
to
to
readdress
some
of
those
funding
issues.
N
N
Okay,
all
right,
I
think
I
think
that
that
would
help
alleviate
some
of
the
overcrowding
issues
that
you're
experiencing
and
and
other
jails,
especially
in
the
the
population
of
inmates
who
really
could
benefit
from
substance,
use
disorder
treatment.
So
I
think
that
we
ought
to
look
into
that
and
and
see
if
we
can
get
you
some
help
in
that
in
that
area,.
B
F
Thank
you,
mr
chairman
daily,
thank
you
for
coming
today
and
we
did
speak
at
the
end
of
last
session.
I
I
want
to
touch
on
a
few
things
in
particular.
As
you
know,
representative
mosher,
representative
nemes.
Those
folks
are
better
on
the
policy
side,
but
I
tend
to
be
the
person
who
exists
where
finance
and
policy
have
to
intersect.
F
H
F
B
F
Somewhere,
thank
you.
Secondly,
you
mentioned
about
the
cost
of
transporting
prisoners.
We
also
allocated
money
last
year
through
aoc's
budget
designed
to
give
a
hundred
percent
coverage
for
video
conferencing
with
the
court
system,
and
necessarily
the
jails
should
have
received
money
to
begin
to
set
that
up.
How
is
that
progressing.
F
B
F
F
You
didn't
bother
to
say
at
that
point
in
time,
because
there
was
no
real
reason
hey
by
the
way
we're
working
this
overtime
because
of
covid
versus
you
know,
because
jim
sprained
an
ankle
playing
basketball
last
night
and
he
can't
walk
now.
It
just
became
overtime
and
naturally,
just
got
absorbed
into
the
cost
of
doing
business
at
a
jail.
F
And
so
I
think
what
we
need
to
realize
is
the
intent
of
this
body.
When
we
appropriated
those
monies
it's
you
know
it
was
to
defray
the
cost.
In
fact,
we
didn't
think
that
you,
it
would
be
enough
to
actually
cover
the
cost.
It
was
just
two
to
fray,
and
so
I
would
say
to
our
friends
in
budget
and
corrections.
F
H
Thank
you,
mr
daily,
for
sharing
your
experiences
with
you
at
your
jail.
My
question
is
in
regards
to
state
inmates
that
are
housed
in
the
county
jail.
You
alluded
to
this
a
little
bit,
but
do
you
have
an
approximate
vaccine
rate
of
those
and
then
also
a
second
part
of
your
question
is
what
you're
hearing
from
other
members
in
your
association
vaccine
hesitancy
that
type
of
thing.
B
Yes,
ma'am
again,
I
I
really
can't
speak
to
all
of
the
other
jails,
except
for
what
we
have
conversations
about
off
the
cuff,
and
some
of
them
were
late
and
even
having
the
ability
to
get
to
vaccinations,
so
they
had
a
slow
start.
We
were
fortunate
again
in
northern
kentucky.
Our
health
department
jumped
on
board
very
quickly
so
again,
we're
we're
at
around
50
of
our
current
population.
Now
keep
in
mind
I've
also
inoculated
many
that
have
been
released
or
gone
back
out
into
the
community,
and
that's
why
we
used
the
one
shot.
B
B
H
Thank
you,
chair
meredith
and
mr
daley
for
your
presentation.
So
in
your
presentation
you
talked
about
quarantine.
So
can
you
describe
what
to
communicate
what
quarantine
policies
have
been
implemented
to
you
and
then
also
based
upon
your
experiences?
If
you
could
make
a
decision
on
a
local
level
whether
those
quarantine
policies
would
be
different.
B
E
H
I
have
a
follow-up
for
that,
so
I
appreciate
you.
You
talked
specifically
about
your
inmates.
Can
you
talk
about
from
your
staff's
perspective
as
well
for
quarantine?
What
your
pot,
you
know
if
there's
or
is
there
any
policy,
that's
been
established
for
your
staff
for
your
deputies
and
what,
if
that's
again
on
a
local
level,
if
you're
making
that
decision.
B
B
What
we're
trying
to
do
is
have
those
that
are
positive
from
deputy
standpoint,
we're
putting
with
positive
inmates
or
if
the
deputy
is
showing
symptoms
or
showing
symptoms
is
not
right.
If
they're,
inoculated
and
they've
been
exposed,
then
we're
allowing
them
to
work
with
exposed
inmates
as
best
we
can.
B
H
M
H
H
H
B
H
B
Yes,
ma'am.
All
of
our
inmates
have
masks
and
they're
given
new
masks
from
time
to
time,
and
we
don't
make
them
wear
them.
You
know
if
they're
in
a
cell
with
10
other
people,
we
don't
make
them
wear
inside
the
cell.
We
kind
of
thought
that
would
be
ridiculous,
but
anytime
they're
outside
of
that
cell.
B
They
have
to
wear
their
mask
and
then,
if
we
know
they're,
coveted
positive,
we're
putting
all
coveted
positives
together
in
a
cell
if
they
have
been
exposed,
we're
trying
to
keep
those
that
have
been
exposed
together
and
then
again
we're
really
lucky
in
campbell
county.
But
I
have
24
7
medical,
so
if
they,
if
they
need
treatment,
we're
trying
to
do
our
very
best
to
make
sure
that
they
get
treatment.
Thank.
H
B
I
don't
know
the
answer
to
the
last
question.
Okay,
I
mean
we're
all
doing
visitation
in
different
forms,
but
I
think
the
issue
was
that
they
had
stopped
in
person
visits.
So
and
again
I
apologize
that's
all
a
matter
of
definition,
because
we
don't
have
any
in-person
visitation
at
campbell
county,
it's
all
online
or
it's
by
camera,
from
our
visitation
area
in
the
front
of
the
jail
with
the
folks
in
their
cell,
but
they
a
lot
of
jails
had
because
they
have
personnel
because
of
their
the
facility
the
size.
E
B
Visitation
area
up
front
a
lot
of
jails,
don't
have
that
a
lot
of
jails,
it's
still
in
person
visit,
and
you
quite
simply
can't
do
that
when
you
have
this
kind
of
an
issue
going
on.
So
it's
it's
impossible
when,
when
you're
restricted
and
again
I
I
don't
mean
to
pick
on
corrections
because
they're
you
know
I
get
along
with
them
very
well.
I
hope
I
think
I
do
and
they
work
well
with
me.
B
But
it's
you
know:
they're
they're
required
to
inspect
us
and
if
you
don't
provide
some
form
of
visitation,
they're
re
required
to
write
you
up
now,
you're,
you
know
you're
going
to
get
a
slap
on
their
wrist
and
and
they
understand,
but
it's
still
very
difficult.
When,
when
a
jailer
looks
at
me
and
said
you
know,
I'm
just
doing
what
they
told
me
and
then
they
come
in
and
they
write
me
up.
So
I
give
them
my
thoughts
on
how
to
respond
appropriately.
H
Well,
I
would
ask
when
they
get
up
here,
to
clarify
that
for
everybody
in
their
presentation
before
us
and
and
let
me
just
state
that
you
know
having
been
on
fiscal
court
a
long
long
time
ago
now
I
know
what
what
the
cost
is,
and
you
know
the
state
has
been
skating
by
with
not
giving
anyone
races,
whether
it's
employees
or
or
jails,
but
it's
it's
time
for
for
us
to
seriously
consider
increasing
the
per
diem
on
a
permanent
basis,
not
just
covet
related.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
Yes,.
A
B
Well,
of
course,
we're
all
jails
are
supposed
to
have
ventilation
systems
set
up,
especially
fire
related
those
kinds
of
things,
so
those
things
help
and
all
jails
are
supposed
to
all
full
service.
Jails
are
supposed
to
have
those
systems
right,
but
what
I
would
tell
you
and
I
I
get
all
kind
of
materials
from
the
american
jailers
and
the
kentucky
jailers
by
discussion,
but
we're
all
nationwide
having
the
same
problems,
because
that
that
ventilation
system,
basically
just
circulates
air
within
the
jail.
B
Now
I
have,
I
have
some
isolation
cells
in
medical
that
are
negative
air,
but
my
whole
facility
is
not
so
it's
it's
that's
what
I
was
talking
about
before,
where
the
deputies
are
are
inside
of
that
jail
and
that
they're
breathing
that
same
air
that's
circulated
over
and
over
and
over
and
again
I
it's
just
to
me
relatively
recent
that-
and
I
still
don't
know
if
it's
correct
or
not,
that
it's
airborne,
that
you
know
it's
always
been.
You
have
to
be
within.
B
You
know
a
sneeze,
that's
the
five
foot,
you
know
if
they
sneeze
or
spit
or
some
other
way
in
in
our
business.
If
you
have
to
fight
somebody,
that's
covet
positive
or
they
spit
on
you,
throw
feces
on
you
all.
Those
wonderful
things
that
go
on
into
jail
are
the
things
that
we
have
to
deal
with.
The
the
air
really
is.
B
C
D
B
A
A
L
L
L
L
We
had
nurses
going,
take
temperature
checks
and
checking
on
inmates,
because
then
they
didn't
want
to
know
that
they
were
positive
and
we
had
to
respond
to
emergencies.
It
was
a
matter
of
making
sure
that
the
local
ambulance
was
on
our
side
of
the
town.
In
case
we
had
to
take
people
out
to
the
hospital.
L
L
Once
we
got
them
up
and
running,
kciw
was
hit
in
june.
They
were
hit
again
in
the
fall
of
last
year.
Ksr
went
positive
in
september,
I
mean
in
july
of
last
year
a
small
portion
of
north
point.
Training
center
went
positive
in
july.
Also,
then,
in
october
little
sandy
correctional,
complex
and
bell
county
forestry
camp
had
positives
november.
Lee
adjustment
center
and
blackburn
correctional
complex,
went
positive
and
then
in
december,
rotor
correctional
complex
eastern
kentucky,
correctional
complex
north
point
was
hit
a
second
time
and
so
was
ksr
a
second
time
with
covet
in
january.
L
L
L
L
L
They
left
some
came
back
after
that
institution
got
up
and
running
when
vaccines
came
into
play.
We
I
think
it
was
right.
Around
april
we
started
vaccinating
anybody
who
was
vulnerable
80
years
old
and
and
down
to
60..
Then
we
were
able,
we
were
a
provider
and
we
can.
We
can
vaccinate
any
of
our
inmates
or
staff
at
any
time
that
they
want
to.
L
So
all
of
them
dependent
on
where
the
institution
is
laid
at
is,
is
what
their
vaccination
rate
will
be.
I
think
the
things
that
that
worked
for
us-
and
I
can
only
speak
for
the
department
of
corrections-
is
that
we
currently
test
staff
twice
a
week
if
you're
unvaccinated,
it
usually
occurs
the
day
before
you're
off
day
and
then
the
day
you
come
back
from
your
off
days.
L
We
have
staff
that
are
working
seven
days
a
week,
because
we
don't
have
enough
staff
to
go
around
they're
working
continuously
over
time,
they're
exhausted,
but
I'm
gonna
tell
you.
This
is
the
best
group
of
people
that
I
can
ever
work
with,
because
they're
pretty
dedicated
to
what
they
do
through
the
height
of
covet.
L
L
We
have
managed
to
covet,
and
the
best
thing
to
ever
happen
to
us
is
that
we
have
the
capability
of
testing
vaccination
and
mask
wearing.
We
continue
to
do
mass
square
and
we
continue
to
do
testing
inmates
that
are
unvaccinated
are
tested
10
every
week,
just
to
make
sure
by
the
end
of
the
month
we
have
tested
all
of
our
unvaccinated
people
during
this
wave
of
covet.
L
I
I
want
to
do
a
little
comparison
to
show
you
what
I
mean
about
why
this
has
worked
for
us
when
western
went
positive
in
april
they
had
358
positive
male
inmates.
During
this
time,
western
have
a
a
breakout.
In
august
they
have
79
inmates
that
are
currently
on
their
general
population
yard
that
are
not
vaccinated.
L
They
have
62
people
right
now
that
are
positive,
coveted
now,
in
april,
with
no
vaccines
available
every
day,
just
about
it
seems
like
we
were
taken
inmate
out
to
the
hospital
during
this
breakout
with
the
tools
that
we
have
in
hand.
62
people
have
said
as
of
today,
and
we
still
have
some
testing
going
on.
62
are
positive,
but
only
two
inmates.
During
this
period
of
time
since
august,
the
14th
has
had
a
fever
for
24
hours
and
that's
it.
L
14
of
them
have
recovered
already,
and
the
rest
of
them
by
the
10th
of
september
will
be
fully
recovered.
Now
we
do
testing
if
somebody
is
coming
into
our
system
in
the
assessment
centers
that
we
have
across
the
state.
We
rapid
test
you
as
soon
as
you
come
off
the
bus.
Seven
days
later,
we
test
you
again
and
seven
days
later
we
test
you
again
before
we
put
you
in
general
population.
L
We
want
to
make
absolutely
sure
that
our
population,
when
you're
going
amongst
everybody
else
that
you
to
our
best
ability,
do
not
have
covet.
I've
lost
already
one
staff
member
who
I
worked
with
for
years
to
cope
at
this
time
around,
so
it
works
for
us.
So
I'll
entertain
any
questions.
I
know
that's
a
fast
overview
but
I'll
entertain
any
questions
that
you
may
have.
H
H
H
Ahead
representatives,
I've
heard
several
you've
given
several
different
reports
about
procedures
you
have,
but
do
you
have
an
overall
procedure
for
differences
in
how
you
treat
people
who
have
had
covid
had
the
vaccine
or
have
not
had
covet
or
the
vaccine?
Do
you
have
protocols
in
place
in
general
for
the
different
treatment.
H
L
H
L
H
Thank
you
chair.
Thank
you,
commissioner,
for
being
here
today.
I
greatly
appreciate
it.
My
question
actually
involves
peewee
valley,
and
so
I
was
curious
of
what
specific
steps
are
being
taken
to
mitigate
the
spread
of
the
virus
at
peewee
valley
and
then
do
you
all
have
any
idea
of
when
that
facility
will
have
power
restored.
L
Their
power
I'll
do
the
second
one.
First,
their
power
was
restored
last
night
they're
on
generators,
I
want
to
say
the
power
structure
hasn't
been
fixed
but
they're
on
a
fully
powered
by
generators.
We
got
some
brought
in
from
the
outside
to
be
able
to
hook
up
all
the
two
living
units
that
it
really
affected,
and
what
was
the
first
question?
L
L
B
I
I
I
would
like
to
ask
again
the
questions
about
the
if
you
have
a
feel
for
the
percentage
of
staff
and
guards
that
have
been
vaccinated
and
and
also
in
combination
with
that,
the
percentage
of
staff
and
guards
that
have
had
coveted
and
have
recovered,
because
when
you
take
those
two
statistics
together,
I
think
you
get
a
clearer
picture
of
where
we
stand.
As
far
as
immunity
goes.
L
I
can
speak
generally
and
I'll
have
to
get
the
second
part
for
you,
it.
It
depends
on
which
community
that
they
work
in.
So
if
you
were
looking
at
the
eastern
part
of
the
state,
the
vaccination
rate
would
be
low.
If
you
look
at
the
odom
county
area,
which
has
three
prisons
in
it,
most
of
them
are
running
around
60,
well
50
to
70
percent
like
the
reformatory,
which
is
our
medical
unit.
L
They
have
as
of
two
weeks
ago,
70
vaccination
rate,
if
you're
looking
at
maybe
in
the
east
you're
looking
at
32
34
vaccination
rate,
if
you're
looking
in
the
west
you're
looking
at
40
to
you're
looking
at
40
percent
vaccination
rate.
Now,
as
far
as
how
many
had
coveted,
I
certainly
will
get
you
back
that
number.
I
didn't
prepare
that.
I
H
G
L
Yeah
early
on
we
prison
industries,
and
I
don't
know
if
you
all
realize
that
made
mass
for
our
population
and
so
inmates
are,
are
issued
mass
that
were
made
by
prison
industries
and
that's
interchange
any
time
that
they
need
it.
Staff
or
issue
issue
kn
95s,
and
they
can
also
get
mask
as
they
need
it.
G
G
So
my
question
goes
to
staffing
and
you
mentioned
how
low
you
are
on
staff,
and
so
my
question
is
is:
do
you
feel
like
your
staffing
issues
at
this
current
time
are
a
matter
of
because
of
of
covid?
In
other
words,
or
do
you
see
that
people
are
kind
of
scared
to
be
in
that
environment,
and
so,
therefore
they
are
not
wanting
to
apply
or
be
on
staff
at
a
correctional
facility,
or
is
it
due
to
pay
or
some
other
other
possible
reason
that
you
see.
L
L
Then
you
add
covet
on
top
of
it,
which
can
be
life-threatening
more
than
that.
What
they're
used
to
and
they're
working
those
long
hours,
because
people
had
either
had
coveted
or
been
exposed
to
covet
or
that
they
were
on
fmla
for
some
other
medical
reason
and
you're
having
to
fill
in
those
thoughts.
People
got
tired
and
it
is
about
money
and
it
is
about
covert,
and
it
is
about
not
having
enough
staff
that
you
can
have
a
vacation
that
you
can
take
off
where
you
want
to
that.
L
N
Yes,
thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
thank
you
very
much
for
your
your
very
compassionate
testimony.
I
I
can
see
that
you
really
do
care
about.
What's
going
on
and
you're
working
hard
to
to
really
rectify
some
of
the
situation,
I
think
I
should
have
posed
my
question
about
the.
How
doc
is
utilizing
the
the
vendors
who
are
currently
contracted
to
provide
substance
use
disorder,
treatment
for
inmates,
especially
in
response
to
the
coven
issue
and
overcrowding?
N
N
Well,
I
know
that
there
are
some
contracts,
some
contracted
vendors
outside
of
the
jail.
You
know
like
voa
and
some
of
the
others.
I
don't
know
if,
if
the
plan
was
to
move
inmates
out
to
those
residential
facilities
or
to
bring
voa
in
to
provide
some
of
those
services,
but
either
way,
I
just
wonder
if,
if
that's
being
utilized
in
either
of
those
scenarios,.
N
L
I
think
I
think
covet
slows
your
process
down
when
you
add
in
that
14
days
of
having
to
make
sure
that
this
person
is
not
going
to
convert,
then
yes,
it
slows
the
process
down
mm-hmm.
I
I
I
sort
of
think
that
sometimes
when
inmates
are
leaving
and
because
of
this
pandemic
it
it
may
have
caused
some
people
to
reconnect
with
their
family
and
it
makes
going
home
to
their
families,
as
opposed
to
you
know,
going
to
halfway
houses
and
staying
so.
L
L
N
Okay,
I
would
love
to
see
that
that
program
really
expanded,
because
you
know
we.
We
don't
want
to
see
folks
succumb
to
this.
This
well
coveted
either
alpha
or
delta
any
of
the
variants
I
mean
you
know
we.
We
think
that
they're
probably
getting
more
virulent
and
we
we
have
this
treatment
available.
I
think
we
ought
to
utilize
it.
So
if
there's
something
that
you
need
from
from
any
of
us
to
help
create
those
partnerships-
or
you
know-
certainly
you
can.
You
can
obtain
the
information
too.
We're
happy
to
help.
L
D
Just
very
quickly,
thank
you
and
commissioner,
thank
you.
I've
been
listening
intently
to
all
the
questions
that
are
being
asked,
and
you
know
I
I
think
the
numbers
about
how
many
people
have
actually
had
infections,
I
think,
is
poignant
and
important.
We
often
talk
about
vaccinated
and
unvaccinated.
I
think
some
of
the
discussion
needs
to
be
about
immunized
and
unimmunized.
D
Cdc
recently
has
put
out
reports
talking
about
people
that
have
had
a
natural
infection
that
they
have
an
adequate
amount
of
neutralizing
antibodies
in
their
system
that
that
often
is
better
than
getting
vaccinated.
Sometimes
now
we
don't
want
people
to
catch
the
virus.
Understandably,
if
you
haven't
had
the
infection
you
need
to
get
vaccinated,
I'd
encourage
anyone
who
has
not
been
infected.
Please
go
get
a
vaccination.
Even
some
of
those
who
have
been
may
not
have
an
adequate
antibody
response
and
should
get
a
vaccine
as
a
booster
to
get
your
immune
level
up.
D
We'll
have
more
of
this
discussion
in
our
health
and
welfare
committee
tomorrow,
for
those
of
you
who
are
members,
you'll
be
hearing
all
about
it.
For
those
of
you
who
are
not
I'd,
encourage
you
to
tune
in
we're,
gonna
have
a
bit
of
a
discussion
on
this
and
on
monoclonal
antibody
therapy
as
well,
which
I
think
you
want.
You
want
to
take
that
once
you're
diagnosed
and
don't
have
the
acute
illness
once
you
get
sick
enough
to
be
in
a
hospital,
it's
pointless
to
take
it
at
that
point.
D
And,
commissioner,
when
you
were
talking
about
people,
I
think
where
your
words
were
being
having
being
spit
on
throwing
crap
at
you
being
called
names
being
physically
assaulted.
I
thought
you
were
talking
about
our
nursing
home
world,
which
is
what
I
work
in
every
day
as
well,
and
that's
a
very
similar
environment
to
where
we're
struggling,
mightily
to
have
staff
to
staff
our
nursing
homes,
which
are
about
36
000
clinical
beds
in
our
state,
and
it's
a
struggle
right
now
for
a
lot
of
those.
So
it's
not
only
just
in
our
jails.
D
A
I
I
H
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
Commissioner
cruz.
I
appreciate
you
taking
your
time
to
be
here
with
us
today.
It
certainly
adds
to
our
perspective,
as
we
consider
all
these
issues,
and
I
just
want
to
clarify
some
of
your
testimony.
The
question
was
asked:
are
you
being
brought
up
about
the
number
of
inmates
in
the
system
who've
been
vaccinated
and
I
believe
the
number
that
I
saw
was
83.02
and
I
assume,
and
I
know
inmate
population
should
vary,
so
I
assume
that
is
a
maybe
a
current
rate.
H
Could
you
verify
that,
and
also
I
have
a
question
on.
We
have
state
prisoners
in
local
jails.
Do
you
have
number
specific
numbers
on
the
number
of
those
prisoners
who
have
been
vaccinated,
and
could
you
just
give
us
a
general
perspective
on
what
our
inmate
population
is
today
versus
when
this
began
18
months
ago
and
where
our
capacity
is
right.
C
L
H
H
H
L
O
H
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
asked
the
previous
speaker
about
the
policies
for
visitation
and
was
hoping
you
all
would
address
that
in
your
remarks.
Can
you
tell
us
they
seem
to
think
there's,
there's
some
ambiguity
in
it.
So
can
you
make
it
clear
what
the
county
visitation
policies
are
from
your
perspective,.
O
So
there
was
some
guidance
put
out
and,
of
course,
the
department
of
corrections
works
very
closely
with
the
kentucky
jailers
association
to
share
information
and
guidance
that
we
were
utilizing
in
the
state
prison
system,
and
there
was
a
memo
sent
out
by
the
kja
that
talks
about
a
it's
a
guidance.
It's
suggested
guidance
that
is
strongly
encouraged
and
it
included
suspending
all
visitation
within
your
facility
again
that
memo
was
not
from
the
department
of
corrections.
O
Additionally,
in
march
march,
13th
of
2020
there
was
a
email
sent
out
from
renee
mcdaniel
again
from
the
kentucky
jailers
association,
where
she
put
several
different
pieces
of
information
together
in
one
email.
It
included
the
memo
that
I
just
mentioned
that,
provided
you
know,
suggested
guidance
and
strongly
encouraging
limiting
visitation.
O
It
also
described
some
guidance
that
had
been
put
together
by
the
justice
of
public
safety
cabinet,
along
with
the
kentucky
public
health
department
that
again
talked
about
suggested
guidance
and
for
correctional
facilities,
and
so
one
of
the
things
that
it
says
in
there
again
is
to
limit
or
restrict
visitation,
but
that
you
know
it
says
we
recommend
visitation
to
prisons,
be
suspended
until
further
guidance
is
issued.
So
this
was
the
department
of
press
sharing
its
own
policies
and
protocols
with
kja
that
kja
then
sent
out
to
the
jailers.
M
H
H
A
A
C
O
There
were
four
pieces
of
information
provided
in
renee
mcdaniel's
email.
One
of
them
was
the
memo
from
kja
itself,
providing
this
strongly
encouraged
guidance.
Another
was
a
sheet
of
paper
from
the
department
of
health
and
the
justice
and
public
safety
cabinet,
talking
about
suggested
guidance
for
correctional
facilities.
A
And
I
think
that's
the
ambiguity
that
was
mentioned
by
representative
koenig
in
his
questioning
was
if
there
was
guidance
issued
by
the
department
of
public
health
and
the
justice
and
public
safety
cabinet,
it
seems
as
though
the
jailers
association
was
working
off
of
those
those
guidances
listed.
There.
O
H
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
just
have
a
couple
things:
real,
quick,
those
of
us
who've
advocated
for
our
ceos.
All
these
years
certainly
realize
that
we
don't
pay
them
enough.
Call
it
or
not.
So
we've
got
some
issues
to
address
on
those
staffing
issues
because
they
truly
are
a
risk
in
their
life,
as
you
all
heard
today,
and
they
always
have
so
that's
not
changed.
But
my
question
is:
when
did
vaccination
of
our
inmates
and
our
institutions
start.
L
H
Well,
I
I
just
I
would
like
to
have
seen
it
all
done
sooner.
I
had
a
lot
of
clients
and
and
individuals
calling
me,
and
actually
I
didn't-
I
didn't
get
my
shot.
I
was
sort
of
a
protest
until
our
inmates
were
were
I
had
the
opportunity
to
be
vaccinated,
so
I
would
just
ask:
what
is
that
opportunity
now?
Are
they
on
entry
or
what
kind
of
information
do
they
give?
Is
it
voluntary
and
all
those
things?
H
L
Is
volunteer,
people
that
are
coming
in
and
intake
are
off
of
the
vaccine
if
they
haven't
gotten
it
in
the
jails.
We
are
a
provider
and
can
administer
those.
Now
they
are
given
one-on-one
information
about
what
it
means
to
them
as
an
individual
in
taking
the
vaccine
or
not
taking
the
vaccine
so
yeah
we
try
to
go
and
and
say
because
you,
as
an
individual
here's,
what's
happening
in
your
health
care.
L
H
Okay,
one
more
quick
thing:
how
about
reporting?
I
know:
we've
had
some
issues
on
state.
You
know
we're
responsible
for
state
inmates.
I
don't
care
where
they
are
and
notwithstanding
the
challenges,
the
local
jails
that
we've
heard
about
earlier
and
and
didn't
hear
all
of
it
their
challenges,
but
certainly
we've
had
some
reporting
issues
when
it
comes
to
state
inmates
early
on,
have
those
been
remedied
and
are
we
getting
the
accurate
data
for
our
state
inmates
that
we're
responsible
for
that
are
in
the
county,
jails.
L
L
Well,
early
on,
during
the
pandemic,
we
had
shut
just
about
everything
down
and
we
have
now
opened
up
where
they
can
go
back
to
school.
They
can
continue
on
their
jobs,
the
only
time
that
we
would
interrupt.
That
is
if
we
had
another
positive,
that's
come
through
through
the
institutions,
but
we've
restored
all
of
our
programming
and
education
piece.
H
H
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
want
to
roll
through
a
couple
of
pieces
here
relating
to
the
visitation
you
mentioned
visitors
who
were
vaccinated
or
allowed
visitation,
but
not
others.
What
about
the
inmates?
Are
the
inmates
able
to
have
visitation,
regardless
of
their
vaccine
status?
Yes,
ma'am,
okay
and
for
those
visitors
who
have
a
severe
religious
objection
to
the
vaccine?
Is
that
covered
in
the
classification
of
who's
vaccinated.
L
Here's
what
we
started
out
and-
and
I
just
kind
of
want
to
let
you
know
what
my
plan
was-
is
that
we,
when
we
reopened
up
visiting,
we
had
just
people
that
were
coming
in
to
be
vaccinated.
I
wanted
to
before
this
variant
came
through.
I
wanted
to
be
able
to
add
the
children
to
it
and
then
work
our
way
down
to
the
unvaccinated,
just
to
make
sure
that
we
were
stable
because
we're
coming
off
a
lockdown
and
then
you're,
adding
more
people
in,
and
I
haven't
gotten
to
that
piece
yet.
H
H
H
H
L
That
that
shouldn't
be,
they
should
be
able
to
visit
with
them
on
zoom.
I
I
I
would,
if
you
could
share
with
me
who
that
was
like
offline.
I
could
make
sure
that
this
is
not
happening.
I
can
tell
you
that
we
are
going
to
get
better
with
our
visiting.
I
I
don't
want
people
to
think
that
that's
all
the
inmates
are
going
to
ever
be
able
to
do
is
to
be
able
to
visit
in
that
square
box
because
that's
not
happening.
H
L
Nelson
county
couldn't
and
their
smaller
jail
could
not
quarantine
like
they
should,
and
we
brought
the
state
inmates
in
quarantine
and
test
them
and
and
and
when
nelson
county
was
able
to
come
back
up,
we
shipped
them
back
out
to
them
if
they
qualified
for
that
program
from
time
to
time,
we
do
get
jails
that
reach
out
to
us
and
say:
hey,
look,
we
got
a
outbreak,
can
you
come?
Can
you
get
inmates?