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From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on Veterans, Military Affairs, and Public Protection (9-28-22)
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A
B
D
A
Well,
thank
you,
as
I
know,
do
we
do
have
a
quorum
first
order
of
business
Let's.
Please
stand
for
the
Pledge
of
Allegiance
and
please
remain
standing
afterwards
for
the
prayer
from
representative
Walker
Thomas.
Thank
you.
Please
join
me.
Congratulations
to
the
United
States
of
America
into
the
Republic
for
which
it
stands.
E
One
nation
under
God
indivisible
with
liberty
and
justice
for
all
right.
Please
remain
standing
by
our
heads,
o
Heavenly
Father.
We
want
thank
you
for
each
and
every
gift
that
you
give
us
each
and
every
day
and
bless
everyone
here
at
this
committee
meeting
and
bless
all
of
our
First
Responders
that
some
will
be
seeing
today
with
a
demonstration
and
bless
all
of
our
military
out
there
protecting
us
as
so
we
can
be
here.
Please
keep
everyone
in
our
prayers
and
anyone
that
might
be
afflicted
with
any
illnesses.
A
Thank
you.
Next
order
of
business
is
approval
of
our
July
and
August
minutes.
Both
meetings
because
we
didn't
have
a
quorum
last
month.
Is
there
a
motion
to
approve
per
second?
A
F
Thanks
Senator
hope,
I,
don't
overstep
any
balance
here,
but
don't
know
if
there's
anybody
else
from
Madison
County
here
that
represents
Madison
County
I
want
to
recognize
Sheriff,
Mike
Coyle
and
his
staff
that
you're
with
us
today,
Sheriff
Coyle
has
an
outstanding
staff
over
in
Madison
County
to
do
a
great
job,
and
he
is
a
retired
Trooper
as
well
as
is
Major
Terry.
That
I
went
through
the
academy
with
and
some
of
the
other
Troopers
that
he
stole
them
from
us.
F
A
Certainly
appreciate
you
being
here,
one
other
slide
deviation
from
our
agenda.
Obviously
I'm
a
new
face
in
this
chair
and
a
new
faces
committee,
but
I'm
sure
all
of
you,
aware
of
the
resignation
of
Center
CB
Emory
due
to
his
lingering
health
problems,
and
we
certainly
wish
him
and
wanted
the
best
going
forward
very
difficult
time
for
them.
But
they're.
Both
people
of
faith
and
I
know
that
that
they
will
certainly
welcome
my
prayers
for
CB
and
for
for
patients
and
strength
as
they
go
through
this.
This
turmoil,
there's
not
enough.
A
Excuse
me
that
we
can
do
to
recognize
CB.
He
announced
during
the
General
Session
that
he
would
not
be
running
for
reelection
and
we
did
recognize
him
on
the
senate
floor,
but
we
want
to
recognize
his
service
on
behalf
of
this
this
department
or
excuse
me
this
committee
as
well
and
within
your
package.
You
have
a
resolution
which
was
prepared
talks
about
the
CB's
background.
A
His
his
history
and
his
commitment
to
the
state
I
would
hope
that
you'd
had
a
chance
to
review
this,
and
if
you
have
I,
would
welcome
a
motion
for
the
committee's
adoption.
This
citation
Motion
in
a
second
I'm
thinking
pick
anyone
you
want
to
for
that
and
with
that
all
in
favor
of
the
motion
say:
aye
any
opposition.
A
Thank
you
again.
Please
keep
one
and
CB
in
your
prayers
back
to
our
agenda.
Excuse
me
the
first
or
the
next
item
is
our
distinguished
guest
with
that
I
will
yield
to
representative
Wesley
to
introduce
our
guest
and
talk
about
what
we're
going
to
hear
this
morning.
Thank.
G
You
Mr
chairman
I
I
I'm,
with
representative
Blanton
I,
appreciate
our
law
enforcement
coming
here
from
Madison
County
and
also
from
a
Richmond
Richmond
Police
Department,
Sergeant
gray,
they're
going
to
be
given
a
demonstration
after
this,
and
we
ask
and
for
all
the
committee
to
come
out
and
be
a
part
of
us
we're
going
to
be
watching
a
demonstration
on
their
canine
units,
one
of
the
deputies
out
there
I,
don't
know
which
one
they
chose
but
he's
going
to
be
wearing
a
bite
suit.
G
So
we're
going
to
be
showing
a
little
demonstration
on
how
these
canines
will
respond
to
protect
one
of
these
officers
and
we've.
We
appreciate
all
of
them
also
our
Sheriff's
Department
from
Franklin
County,
so
I
asked,
if
we'll
all
give
them
a
hand
and
appreciate
their
sacrifice,
what
they
do.
G
So
they're
going
to
be
given
Mr
chairman
a
demonstration
on
their
canine
units
searching
for
dope.
We
planted
some
drugs
in
someone's
vehicle
out
there,
I'm
just
kidding,
and
there
there
is
a
vehicle
out
there,
that's
going
to
be
hot
and
then
there's
going
to
be
one
that
has
nothing
in
it
and
we're
going
to
show
you
or
or
they
are
they're
going
to
show
you
the
the
difference
between
when
they're
searching
for
a
vehicle
that
has
anything
in
it,
and
we
just
appreciate
the
sacrifice.
G
Could
you
imagine
being
out
three
o'clock
in
the
morning
and
the
only
thing
that
you
have
for
backup
is
that
canine,
so
you're
trusted
in
that
and
so
there's
a
bonding.
There
is
a
relationship
built
between
the
the
canine
and
each
officer
or
each
deputy
and
so
they're
going
to
be
given
the
demonstration.
So
we
invite
everyone
to
come
out
after
the
committee
is
over
and
let
them
give
a
little
demonstration.
So
we
appreciate
them
being
here.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
thank.
A
You-
and
we
certainly
we'll
look
forward
to
that,
but
it
gives
me
a
great
consolation
to
know
that
none
of
our
committee
members
got
up
and
left
whenever
you
announced
that
would
be
searching
for
drugs
and
vehicles.
So
not
that
I'm
surprised
by
that
at
all.
But
look
forward
to
that
and
we'll
have
another
reminder
that
at
the
end
of
this
meeting
next
on
agenda
is
the
Kentucky
Department
of
Veterans,
Affairs
and
gentlemen.
I
see
you
already
see
the
table.
If
you
would
I
think
you
all
know
the
routine.
H
Good
morning,
members
of
The
Joint
Committee,
my
name
is
commissioner
Whitney
P
Allen,
Jr,
Lieutenant,
Colonel,
U.S,
army
retired.
To
my
right.
It's
distinguished
honorable,
Keith,
L,
Jackson,
deputy
secretary
of
justice
and
public
health
cabinet
and
the
sixth
commissioner
for
kdva
to
his
right
is
Mr
Sam
Flynn.
He
is
Chief,
counsel
and
I'm,
sorry,
chief
of
staff
and
general
counsel
for
the
labor
cabinet
and
then
finally,
to
the
far
right
and
most
distinguished
member
of
this
group
is
executive
director
Mark
Bowman
of
my
veterans,
centers.
H
It
is
an
honor
and
privilege
to
be
here
or
to
be
the
point
man
in
the
sniper
Lane
for
those
who
understand
that
piece
and
I
just
want
to
make
a
note
that
the
chief
of
staff,
we
need
a
canine
so
for
these
committees.
So
thank
you
for
giving
me
a
point
of
order
here
to
bring
a
canine
to
sit
by
my
side,
but
always
it's
an
honor
to
come
in
answer
any
tough
questions
on
operation
of
kdva
and
what
we
do
for
veterans.
H
That
is
the
most
important
thing
in
my
mind.
My
team's
mind
this
gentleman's
mine
that
gentleman's
mind
and
the
crew
behind
me
that
I
brought
in
today
and
what
I
would
like
to
do
is
start
off
with
the
UI
detail.
Questions
and
I
will
turn
it
over
to
deputy
secretary
Jackson
and
Chief
of
Staff
of
Flynn.
H
I
Right
all
right,
I'll
be
I'll,
be
as
brief
as
I
can
so.
I
can
turn
over
to
to
Mr
Flynn
on
May,
1st
of
2020,
a
request
was
given
by
the
governor
for
250
employees
or
for
a
customer
service
activity,
which
was
to
support
the
UI
Unemployment
Insurance
Mission
for
the
citizens
of
the
Commonwealth
of
Kentucky
due
to
the
covet
outbreak.
At
that
time,
my
staff,
which
included
the
then
Chief
of
Staff
rickshad,
Dean,
Stoops
and
Whitney,
came
on
at
the
at
the
end
of
it.
I
We
discussed
the
plan
of
how
we
would
support
the
mission
and
with
that
we
responded
to
the
governor's
request
and
provided
them
with
approximately
15
Personnel
from
kdba
two
supervisors
and
13
of
our
employees
that
were
going
to
support
that
mission
and
from
that
point
forward,
we
reduced
and
allowed
staff
to
return
to
our
to
our
area
of
which
is
kdva
to
support
the
mission
of
working
with
veterans
and
supporting
them
throughout
the
Commonwealth
of
Kentucky.
So
with
that
questions,
one
and
two
and
three
I'll
turn
it
over
to
you,
sir.
J
Thank
you,
deputy
secretary
and
thank
you,
members
of
the
committee
for
for
allowing
me
to
to
be
here
in
support
of
kdva.
We
were.
We
were
informed
at
the
education
and
labor
cabinet
that
there
had
been
a
question
relating
to
UI
and
staff
members
that
were
provided
to
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance
to
assist
with
essentially
soft
skills,
customer
service
and
claims
taking
during
the
outset
of
the
covid-19
pandemic.
J
As
you're
well
aware,
state
of
emergency
was
declared
at
both
the
state
and
the
federal
level
by
the
governor
and
by
President
Trump
in
March
late
March
of
2020,
the
Senate
and
the
house
passed
the
cares
act.
It
was
signed
into
law
by
President
Trump
on
March
27th.
It
created
amongst
a
number
of
of
programs.
J
Three
new
federal
unemployment,
insurance
benefit
programs,
you've,
probably
heard
of
Pua
so
pandemic
unemployment,
assistance
and
I
have
the
others
here
as
well.
Federal
pandemic
unemployment,
compensation
and
pandemic
Emergency
Unemployment
Compensation.
J
These
three
Federal
programs
expanded
greatly
the
access
to
Federal
benefits
for
individuals
who
lost
a
job
through
no
fault
of
their
own
and
just
to
give
you
sort
of
an
idea
of
what
those
those
months
were
like
and
I
know.
We
all
lived
it,
but
in
terms
of
the
numbers
in
the
first
week
of
March
of
2020
about
2400
UI
claims
were
filed.
Now
again,
this
is
before
the
the
federal
pandemic
assistance
in
the
first
week
of
April.
J
So
the
week
following
these
new
federal
programs,
over
117
000
claims
were
filed
in
those
two
months,
leading
up
to
the
May
1st
request
for
additional
Personnel
to
assist
from
various
cabinets
and
agencies,
including
kdva
about
680
000
claims
were
filed
to
put
that
in
context.
That
is
larger
than
the
entire
sum
of
claims
that
were
filed
during
the
2008
and
2009
financial
crisis.
J
So
that
is
the
scope
of
the
the
issues
that
we're
dealing
with
fast
forward
from
from
2008
2009
to
2017..
In
2017
and
early
2017
prior
Administration
announced
that
there
was
going
to
be
a
reorganization
in
the
Career
Centers
out
in
the
state
and
some
95
staff
that
were
trained,
employee
employer
services
and
UI
staff.
J
J
We
have
this
massive
influx
of
UI
claims
and
the
new
federal
benefit
claims
on
May
1st,
with
the
assistance
of
the
governor,
the
Personnel
cabinet,
the
education,
the
then
education
and
Workforce
Development
cabinet
put
out
a
request
to
other
agencies
for
individuals
that
had
soft
skills
that
could
provide
customer
service
for
the
massive
influx
of
of
calls
and
claims
that
we're
receiving
to
do
claims
taking
as
well
about
117
employees
were
detailed
for
a
period
ranging
from
one
month
to
up
to
seven
and
a
half
months
for
purposes
of
kdva.
J
J
I
You
for
and
for
question
four,
what
kind
of
oversight
was
provided
or
instruction
given
regarding
the
execution,
the
primary
duties
in
Aid,
in
addition
to
the
UI
claim
for
us
it
was
John
ostrowski
who
was
our
HR
Manager
for
kdva.
He
maintained
constant
communication
with
the
supervisors
of
any
issues
that
may
have
been
had
by
our
employees.
He
also
transitioned
our
employees
back
to
kdva,
as,
as
was
stated
over
the
three
of
the
one
month,
three
months
and
then
seven
and
a
half
month
period.
I
H
And
community
members,
please
understand
it's
17
members
out
of
700
people
in
the
agency,
so
Cemetery
operations
continued
on
Veteran,
Center
operation,
nursing
homes
could
move
continued
on
the
Outreach
programs,
even
though
it
was
covet
and
limited
continue
to
go
on
and
then
the
remaining
benefit
division
staff
that
did
claims
and
process
continue
to
process.
At
the
same
time,
the
world
kind
of
stopped
so
Federal
VA
and
their
Clan
process
stopped
for
a
while.
There
was
no
medical.
H
J
H
J
I'm,
sorry
and
I
just
want
to
Echo
just
the
the
tremendous
amount
of
support
having
those
additional
staff
members
from
other
agencies
provided
to
to
UI.
In
a
time
where
we
needed
every
last
trained,
UI
staff
member
available
to
adjudicate
claims.
This
took
them
off
of
the
phones
and
got
them
to
to
their
computers
where
they
can
adjudicate
and
work
through.
What
what
we
all
know
was
was,
at
the
time,
a
backlog,
a
significant
backlog
of
claims
early
in
the
pandemic.
J
So
this
was
of
of
great
assistance
to
the
office
of
unemployment,
insurance
and
the
office
of,
of
course,
greatly
appreciates
our
our
sister
cabinet
and
sister
agencies
providing
those
those
services
and
and
those
employees
to
assist
us.
H
H
Open
for
any
questions
or
comments.
A
F
First
of
all,
I
want
to
thank
kdva
for
all
your
work
during
this
very
trying
time
to
assist
in
the
unemployment,
insurance
claims
and
stepping
up,
and
not
surprised
that
you
all
did
that
you
have
a
great
great
cabinet
over
there
and
you
do
a
wonderful
job,
so
I'm
not
surprised
that
you
all
stepped
up
when
needed.
F
That's
that's
who
you
all
are
and
I
appreciate
that
my
question
first
of
all,
is
for
the
gentleman
from
the
labor
cabinet
during
this
time
when
we
had
many
people
in
need.
We
also
know
that
there
are
people
that
takes
advantage
of
these
type
situations,
and
we
know
there
were
a
lot
of
fraudulent
claims
made
and
even
paid
out
by
the
unemployment
and
I
was
just
curious
as
to
how
many
people
has
been
prosecuted
at
this
point
for
these
fraudulent
claims.
J
I'm
I
guess
I'm,
not
sure
what
you
mean
I'd
need
you
to
to
provide
a
little
bit
more
clarity.
So
I
do
know
that
that
there
have
there
have
been
questions
about
individuals
that
were
employed
by
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance.
Is
that
what
you're,
referencing
or
you
you
mean
holistically?
The
entire
state
of
Kentucky
holistically.
J
What
I
can
tell
you
is
first,
the
education
and
labor
cabinet
and,
and
then
the
labor
cabinet
is
not
capable
of
Prosecuting.
It's
not
a
prosecutorial
agency.
What
I
can
tell
you
is
that
any
time
that
there
is
a
potential
fraud,
somebody's
stolen
identity,
Etc
files,
a
claim
under
somebody
else's
Social,
Security
number
cetera.
J
We
refer
that
and
if,
if
it
comes
from
out
of
state,
we
work
with
our
federal
law
enforcement
Partners,
whether
it's
US
doj
Treasury
IRS
Etc,
to
ensure
that
those
agencies
are
aware
and
have
all
of
the
appropriate
records
necessary
to
prosecute.
We
had
a
fraud
task
force
that
we
we
worked
with
our
federal
Partners
about
what
kinds
of
fraud
are
out
there
and
identifying
those
and
providing
that
information
to
to
again
our
federal
counterparts
as
as
to
the
fraudulent
claims
or
attempts
to
to
perpetrate
fraud.
Within
this
the
Commonwealth
of
Kentucky.
J
We
refer
those
to
the
local
prosecutors
whenever
our
our
integrity
Branch
determines
that
you
know
a
claim
is
potentially
fraudulent,
We
Gather
the
records
together
and
and
send
send
it
on
with
a
letter
referring
it
to
the
county
attorney
or
the
Commonwealth's
Attorney.
As
as
appropriate,.
F
Do
we
know
if
any
of
those
referrals
that
you
all
made
have
been
followed
through
with
any
type
of
prosecution
by
anyone.
J
Almost
certainly,
sir,
but
in
terms
of
these
specific
numbers,
I
I
don't
have
those
for
you
and
and
again
many
of
these
are
a
matter
of
prosecutorial
discretion.
So,
in
point
of
fact,
we
can't
force
force
anyone
to
to
prosecute
fraud.
I.
F
Understand
that,
but
have
you
all
followed
up
to
see?
I
mean
you're,
saying
that
you
believe
there
is
I've
not
heard
of
any
prosecution.
I,
don't
know
if
any
other
committee
members
have
heard
of
any
prosecution
for
people
who's
tried
to
fraudulently
to
make
these
claims
and
I
know
it's
cost
taxpayers
millions
of
dollars
for
these
fraudulent
claims
and
I
think
the
people
would
be
interested
knowing
how
many
of
these
people's
been
prosecuted,
I.
J
I
can
assure
you,
at
the
federal
level
that
has
absolutely
occurred.
We've
assisted
in
at
least
77
a
federal
law
enforcement
investigations
as
of
last
month
and
the
the
obviously
we
can't
comment
on
specifics
about
those
those
investigations
and
and
I
would
refer
you
to
those
law
enforcement
agencies,
including
doj
U.S
attorney's
office
for
the
eastern
and
western
districts
of
Kentucky
and
the
FBI.
But
in
terms
of
the
the
specific
number
of
individuals
that
are
prosecuted
and
convicted
I
I,
don't
have
those
numbers
for
you
today.
I
I
can
look
into
that.
F
Is
the
cabinet,
through
these
prosecutions,
seeking
any
any
collection
of
any
of
these
funds?
That's
been
fraudulently
obtained.
J
Absolutely
that
that
that
is
required
by
state
and
federal
law,
and
we
do
that.
J
I,
don't
have
those
specific
numbers
with
me
today,
but
I
can
get
those
for
you.
Would
you
please?
Yes,
sir?
Thank.
K
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I
have
several
questions.
Gentlemen.
Thank
you
for
being
here
today
and
I
truly
appreciate
what
you
guys
do
for
all
the
veterans
here
in
the
Commonwealth
and
for
your
service.
Some
of
the
questions
I
that
I
keep
having
is
I
know
that
the
lrc
staff
was
offered
up
during
this
trying
time
and
they
were
declined.
There
was
a
hundred
people,
I
guess
from
lrc
offered
up.
Why
were
they
not
used.
J
That's
correct:
lrc
staff
were
offered
to
the
cabinet,
however,
were
prohibited
by
state
and
federal
law
from
utilizing
their
services.
First.
First,
it's
prohibited
by
the
state
constitution.
It's
a
separation
of
powers
issue.
Second,
it's
specifically
prohibited
by
KRS
chapter
7.
J
Moreover,
it's
prohibited
by
federal
law
and
the
Social
Security
Act
and
the
accompanying
cfrs,
and
then
lastly,
it's
prohibited
by
usdol
policy.
We
can
only
use
executive
branch
staff
F
now
during
that
time
period
there
was
some
flexibility
allowed
for
us
to
utilize
staff
from
other
agencies
within
the
executive
branch,
and
we,
we
obviously
did
so.
K
Okay,
I
appreciate
that
finally
answers
a
question
I've
had
since
I've
got
into
office
here.
One
of
the
other
questions
I
did
have
is
that
Mr
Allen,
commissioner
Allen
before
you
testified
that
these
15
employees
that
went
over
to
testify
greatly
affected
your
operation
and
processing
veterans
claims.
Is
that
correct.
H
Okay,
sir,
yes,
it
it,
you
saw
it
in
numbers
dip.
However,
that's
what
happens
when
you
shift
case
loads
to
take
care
of
300
000
veterans
in
Kentucky
when
I
looked
at
the
numbers.
H
At
that
point,
we
were
at
300
it
dipped
down
to
about
300
a
month,
processing
claims
down
to
between
100
and
150
and
then
as
I
briefed
to
the
committee
before
with
the
graph
it
Rose
back
up
as
we
adjusted-
and
you
remember,
this
is-
was
covet
time
where
people
could
not
work
in
their
office,
so
we
had
to
shift
to
a
virtual
environment
as
well
as
adjust
to
the
overall
environment
as
as
it
is
so
we
continue
to
move
on.
H
At
the
Max
will
authorize
23
total
right
now.
I
am
around
17
or
18
vpfr,
so
I'm
always
understaffed.
Due
to
competition
of
va,
they
pay
a
lot
more
money.
That's
why
I
come
back
for
abrs
to
you,
know
things
of
that
nature.
So
yes,
but
we
have
some
great
talented
people.
That's
been
in
the
organization
10
15
years.
K
All
right,
thank
you,
commissioner
I
think
that's
all
I
have
at
this
time.
H
And
sir
I
just
want
to
make
sure
did
I
answer
your
question.
I
understand,
impact
and
I
know
as
a
no
Lieutenant
Colonel.
You
know
I
always
look
things.
You
know
black
and
white
most
of
the
time,
but
understand
that
you
know
as
everyone
dipped
we
recovered
and
took
care
of
our
veterans.
K
I
think
you
pretty
much
answered
the
questions
I
have
and
why
the
lrc
staff
was
not
used.
My
question
I
mean
we
left
a
bunch
of
veterans
out
there
hanging
for
this
period
of
time.
I'm
I'm
just
trying
to
get.
F
K
F
H
Sir,
and
we
did
everything
we
could
to
include
changing
messages
so
that
we
routed
current
clients
to
the
remaining
staff.
Message
was
put
on
the
phones
so
that
they
can
call
those
individuals.
The
website
was
available.
The
office
was
available
when
many
of
the
staff
went
home
due
to
some
great
policies
on
actually
I
came
in
and
I
had
what
4
jobs
boss.
H
So
so
we
did
everything
we
could
to
move
forward
to
be
a
team
player
to
help
team
Kentucky
in
general,
and
the
veterans
no
veteran
was
was
left
out.
Sir.
K
Out
of
that,
the
the
veterans,
your
organization
came
up
with
15
people
that
they
could
Supply.
J
Sorry,
legislative
branch
employees
are
not
prohibited
again:
Constitution
State
law,
federal
law
and
federal
policy
prohibit
exec
legislative
branch.
Employees
from
providing
executive
branch
Services
even
under
the
flexible
Merit
Staffing
rule
that
that
usdol
put
in
place
to
essentially
allow
us
to
bring
in
staff
from
other
parts
of
state
government
that
perhaps
had
UI
experience
bring
them
to
bear
on
this.
This
issue,
why.
L
J
Branch,
that's
that's,
not
a
that's,
not
a
policy
that
prohibits
sorry,
that's
a
policy
that
prohibits
it,
but
that
policy
is
derived
from
the
code
of
federal
regulations
which
accompanies
the
Social
Security
Act,
which
specifically
prohibits
it.
And
then,
of
course,
the
separation
of
powers
in
Kentucky's.
Constitution
prohibits
the
legislature
from
performing
any
executive
branch
function
in
Karis.
Chapter
7
explicitly
says
that
that
legislative
staff
cannot
perform
functions
for
the
executive
branch.
M
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
a
couple
questions.
If
you
don't
mind,
commissioner
Allen
deputy
secretary
Jackson
director
Bowman,
thank
you
all
for
your
service.
I
know
you're
always
readily
available.
If
we,
if
we
have
a
an
issue
and
I
encourage
any
of
my
committee,
so
comrades,
if,
if
you
have
a
veterans
issue,
you
are
very
responsive
and
I
appreciate
that
commissioner
Allen,
of
course
you
kind
of
I
guess
during
covet,
we
we
pretty
much
stayed
at
home.
M
A
lot
of
you
folks
work
from
home
and
are
you
are
you
transitioning
back
now,
as
are
you
getting
back
to
something
called
normal
after
now?
That
covet
is
is
behind
us.
H
Sir,
we're
back
in
the
office
and
been
been
in
office
for
a
very
long
time,
so
we're
taking
care
of
business,
bringing
in
new
people,
training
them
and
working
with
veterans
and
the
cemeteries
have
always
been
been
operational,
especially
during
that
time.
I
will,
if
you
ever
get
a
chance
and
I
put
that
out
back
in
November.
H
If
y'all
can
send
a
letter
to
my
veterans,
centers
and
all
the
things
that
they're
going
through
went
through
to
covet,
and
they
still
have
those
high
standard
of
protecting
veterans
still
wearing
Mass
still
wearing
face.
Shields
still
have
to
go
through
regular
testing,
which
is
every
day
as
well
as
my
Cemetery
operations,
they're
they're
bearing
veterans
and
they're
constantly
in
contact
with
the
public
and
then
sending
my
benefit.
Reps
they're
they're
back
into
the
courthouses
Federal
buildings
and
such.
M
Well,
thank
you.
I
appreciate
that
I
know.
You've
worked
worked
to
get
through
this
and
we
thank
you
for
that.
I
guess
to
the
labor
cabinet
on
the
unemployment
issue
was
always
referred
to
as
a
train
wreck
and
there's
a
lot
of
issues
that
that
came
in
that
one
of
the
main
ones
was
our
I
guess
our
Antiquated
system,
that
computer
system
that
we
have
and
I
think
that
that
that
was
to
cause
many
many
problems.
M
What's
our
worst,
how
are
we
now?
What's
the
status
on
on
upgrading
that
system
and
the
putting
a
new
system
in
place.
J
I
I
believe
Senator
Higdon,
that
that's
currently
in
the
rebidding
process
and
at
one
point
during
the
prior
bidding
process,
I
believe
there
were
two
or
three
vendors
potentially
out
there.
I
don't
want
to
get
into
the
specifics
of
that
that
procurement,
for
obvious
reasons,
there's
Finance
regulations
that
prohibit
that.
But
we
are
in
the
process
of
rebidding
that
yeah.
M
J
Appreciate
that
Senator,
Higdon
and,
of
course,
yourself
or
or
any
of
the
other
Senators
representatives
in
the
in
the
room,
if
you
do
have
individuals
that
have
unemployment
insurance
issues,
please
reach
out
we're
happy
to
assist
well.
E
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
you've
done
a
good
job
explaining
to
us
the
reasons
why
executive
branch
and
legislative
branch
employees
can't
perform
each
other's
services,
but
I
have
a
question
one
of
the
when
an
emergency
is
declared
by
the
governor
or
the
brand,
the
respective
Branch
employees
able
to
help
perform
the
duties
of
the
other
branch
in
order
to
mitigate
that
emergency.
J
So
I
I
guess
the
is
the
hypothetical
here
that
the
governor
has
declared
a
state
of
emergency
and
are
you
asking
whether
legislative
branch
employees
can
perform
executive
branch
functions?
Yes,.
J
On
well
again,
that's
it's
a
hypothetical
question,
but
in
that
circumstance
my
position
would
be
no
okay
because
of
the
the
separation
of
powers
in
the
Constitution.
Even
if
you
suspended
KRS
chapter
7,
you
obviously
cannot
suspend
sections
27,
28
and
29
of
the
the
Kentucky
Constitution
and
and
most
of
the
point,
even
if
that
were
a
possibility
in
this
hypothetical,
you
couldn't
suspend
the
the
federal
law
by
by
state
executive
action.
Okay,
thanks.
D
Thank
you,
Mr
chair
and
yes
thank
you,
gentlemen,
for
coming
here
and
talking
about
this
difficult
subject
and
it
can
be
but
I
I
want
to
say,
congratulations,
I
mean
we
are
at
this
point.
D
You
know
through
what
was
one
of
the
most
horrible
situations
we
can
imagine
with
the
combination
of
things
that
happened
related
to
the
UI
system
and
the
willingness
to
help
and
be
team
players.
It
is
always
very,
very
great
to
see
you
know,
and,
and
while
there
were
problems
we
we
recognize,
every
state
had
big
issues
related
to
their
unemployment,
insurance,
Antiquated
systems
and
they
perhaps
didn't
deal
with
what
Kentucky
dealt
with
with
the
dismantling
of
the
95
locations
where
we
had
unemployment
Specialists
throughout
the
state.
D
Now
we
did
attempt
to
build
a
bill
to
recreate
that,
and
that
takes
some
time,
but
we're
on
that
process
and
and
I
know
that
there
was
a
process
going
on
related
to
a
new
computer
system,
wish
it
were
all
done.
You
know
it
there's
a
lot
of
things.
We
could
say
this
should
be
done
by
now,
but
we're
getting
there.
We
recognize.
All
of
you
have
been
through
the
trenches
with
this
you've
learned
a
lot
and
we
have
learned
a
lot
and
understanding
the
separation
of
powers
is
extremely
important.
D
There's
a
balance
there
there's
a
balance
that
we
have
sometimes
struggled
with
as
legislative
branch
and
I
usually
take
the
side
of
the
legislative
branch.
So
you
know
it
was
a
little
frustrating
to
think
that
we
had
employees
that
could
do.
It
could
had
some
time
to
do
some
work,
but
then
you
look
at
it
this
way.
If
we
had
allowed-
or
somebody
had
interpreted
the
law
that
we
could,
the
executive
branch
could
take
the
or
utilize
the
legislative
branch
employees
that
opens
a
can
of
worms.
D
That
I
think
could
be
very
frustrating
for
the
legislative
branch
and
there
could
be
other
times
when
emergencies
are
declared
and
a
legislative
branch
employees
are
taken,
and
you
know,
is
it
really
an
emergency?
Is
it
really
a
need
to
do
that?
So
I
think
that
fine
line
there
I
think
keeping
it
the
balance.
There
was
really
important.
I
thought.
D
Senator
Higdon
was
going
to
get
to
this
question,
but
I
want
to
want
to
ask
Mr
Flynn
about
the
current
status
of
unemployment
claims
where
it's
at
now,
and
you
know
the
wait
time
that
this
just
how's
it
how's
the
process
working
out
right
now,
with
the
Antiquated
system
and
with
the
Personnel
that
are
in
place.
J
Thank
you,
representative
I,
appreciate
your
question
and,
and
thank
you
for
your
comments
about
our
staff.
We
we
do
appreciate
it
and
they
do
work
incredibly
hard
and
did
work
incredibly
hard
during
a
very,
very
difficult
time
in
terms
of
of
the
services
that
we
provide.
We've
provided
about
a
hundred
thousand
in-person
appointments
where
the
individual
showed
up.
We've
scheduled
well
over
130
000
in-person
appointments
since
2021
when
we
opened
Career
Centers
for
the
first
time
since
basically
February
of
2017,
and
we
are
all
the
way
through.
J
Our
2020
claims
we're
into
the
first
quarter
of
2021,
and
what
I
can
tell
you
is
that
during
2021
and
I
believe
this
is
to
representative
Blanton's
question
earlier
about
fraud
attempts
in
early
2021
with
the
passage
of
well.
First,
there
was
a
a
federal
law
that
was
passed
to
extend
benefits
in
December
of
2020
and
then
a
subsequent
bill
that
was
passed
early
in
2021
following
those
there
was
obviously
going
to
be
an
influx
of
federal
money
or
a
continuation
of
federal
money.
J
The
fraudsters
from
from
what
we
learned
from
our
USD,
usdol
and
usdoj
partners,
is
that
when
you
have
that
sort
of
opportunity,
there's
going
to
be
fraudulent
attempts,
we
had
a
significant
number
of
fraudulent
attempts
that
led
to
a
significant
increase
in
the
number
of
claims
that
we
needed
to
work
through.
J
We
are
working
through
the
that
that
first
and
second
quarter
of
2021
at
this
point,
we
are
basically
month
to
month
or
week
to
week
in
2022,
so
really
we're
trying
to
close
out
that
Gap
from
q1
and
Q2
of
2021
up
until
the
time
when
the
federal
benefits
cut
off
on
September
6
of
2021..
So
so
we're
getting
to
the
to
the
end
of
the
problem.
D
Just
just
a
brief
follow-up,
real
quick,
so
how
many
claims
are
roughly
a
week
or
a
month
or,
however,
you?
You
typically
report
them
and
then
compare
that
to
maybe
March
of
2020
the
one
you
reported
about.
J
So,
on
a
average
week
during
2022,
somewhere
between
1100
and
1500
claims,
perhaps
a
week
during
the
month
of
March
and
I,
have
the
figures
here.
For
the
week
ending
march
20
23rd
of
2020
49
000
claims
the
following
week:
113
000
claims
117
000
claims
the
following
week:
116
103
91
82,
you
see
where
I'm
going
it's
not
like
drinking
water
through
a
fire
hose.
It's
like
drinking
water
through
12
fire
hoses
all
right.
Thank
you.
N
First
of
all,
thanks
guys
and
thanks
for
your
service
and
appreciate
you
for
standing
up
for
the
state
of
Kentucky.
When
you
know
disasters
bring
very,
very
challenging
times,
as
you
know,
and
you
all
had
experience
with
that,
and
sometimes
we
just
got
to
come
together
and
be
a
team
and
and
try
to
do
the
best
we
can
to
get
get
through
a
situation.
N
My
memory
of
the
situation
is
more
than
anything
and
by
the
way
a
lot
of
us
were
inundated
with
our
day-to-day
operations
as
well
dealing
with
many
many
people
that
are
trying
to
get
unemployment
and
just
really
couldn't
get
anywhere,
and
it
was
very,
very
difficult
time
for
a
lot
of
us
and
also
I
was
one
of
the
guys
to
to
respond
to
to
representative
Blanton's
comments.
I
was
one
of
the
persons
who
had
my
information
used
as
well.
N
I
never
followed
a
claim,
but
somebody
filed
a
claim
under
my
information.
So
obviously
I
got
very
involved
in
all
that
pretty
quickly,
but
one
of
the
things
I
remembered
was
you
know
a
few
years
back,
we
went
to
all
automating
this
process.
N
It
reduced
a
lot
of
our
labor
and
a
lot
of
our
offices,
but
we
didn't
upgrade
the
automation
system
and
we're
still
running
on
Cobalt
system,
which,
if
you
don't
know
what
that
is,
I
mean
that's
a
1970s
type
technology
and,
and
that
was
the
root
of
many
of
the
problems
it
just.
We
had
a
system
that
we
created
that
that
couldn't
handle
the
load
that
was
put
upon
us,
so
we
did
what
we
could
and
we're
still
trying
to
do.
N
What
we
can
and
my
my
initial
question:
Senator
Higdon
brought
it
up,
so
he
kind
of
stole
my
thunder,
because
I
was
going
to
ask
where
we
stood
on
that
issue
and
you
guys
answered
that
question.
But
but
let
me
follow
up
on
Senator
or
I'm.
Sorry,
representative,
Blanton's
question
about
prosecutions
and
just
say,
is
I
understand.
This
is
a
a
federal
situation
in
many
ways,
because
it's
unemployment
insurance
that
we're
dealing
with,
but
is
there?
N
J
So
in,
in
short,
very
little
so
the
statute,
obviously
the
the
Commonwealth's
attorneys
and
the
County
attorneys-
are
going
to
have
the
the
jurisdiction
to
prosecute
potential
fraud,
state
level,
fraud
in
their
own
jurisdictions
and
what
our
process
is
is
to
refer
instances
of
fraud
to
the
County
attorneys
or
Commonwealth
attorneys,
depending
on
the
amount
of
course.
If
it's,
if
it's
at
the
felony
level,
then
we're
obviously
referring
them
to
the
to
the
Commonwealth
Attorney
and,
if
not
to
the
to
the
county
attorney.
But
that
is
that
is
our
process.
N
Appreciate
that
I've
had
some
texts
that
were
asking
that
and
I
didn't
really
know
the
answer
so
I
appreciate
that
and
and
and
I
just
want
to
end
Mr
Chair
by
saying,
hey
it's.
This
is
a
epitome
of
Team,
Kentucky
and
I
appreciate
the
work.
Y'all
stood
up
and
did
thank
you.
A
Generally,
a
couple
questions
from
the
chair
before
you:
you
leave
appreciate
your
testimony
this
morning
appreciate
all
the
questions
that
we've
had
it's
part
of
this
process.
We
engaged
Ernst
young,
the
contracted
7.6
million
dollars
to
supposedly
address
these
outstanding
claims.
We
had
the
very
beginning
and
then
shortly
thereafter
we
offered
them
another
4.4
million
dollar
contract,
so
again
12
million
dollars.
What
was
that
sufficient
to
take
care
of
the
backlog,
and
why
did
we
have
to
require
an
employee
from
other
cabinets
to
participate
in
the
process?
J
So,
for
first
things,
first,
we
put
out
the
request
for
oh
I
didn't
put
out
the
request,
but
the
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance
at
the
time
put
out
the
request
to
our
sister
agencies
departments
Etc
to
provide
additional
staff
that
they
had
available
to
them
on
May,
1st
of
2020..
Obviously,
we've
discussed
the
significant
amount
of
of
claims
that
had
been
filed
in
the
weeks
and
months
weeks
and
two
months.
J
Proceeding
that
that
event,
the
Ernst
young
contract
was
entered
into
and,
and
we
looked
into
Ernst,
young
and
I
believe
navient
was
the
other
potential
option,
but
they
did
not
have
the
resources
available
and
the
experience
that
Ernst
young
had
at
the
time
we
entered
into
that
contract
I
believe
it
was
in
late,
June
of
2020,
so
about
a
month
and
a
half
after
that
point,
those
individuals
were
asked
with
providing
support
for
our
adjudicators,
so
they
would
work
through
issues
actually
participate
in
the
adjudication
process.
J
The
individuals
that
that
were
detailed
from
other
other
cabinets
or
agencies
to
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance.
Most
of
those
individuals
were
not
experienced
with
with
the
UI
system,
etc.
Those
individuals
were
tasked
with
performing
claims,
processing
and
intake
and
customer
service,
which
is
is
part
of
the
reason
why
we
were
looking
for
individuals
that
worked
in
those
soft
skill
areas
of
other
agencies
if
they
they
were
available
to
assist
us.
J
Allow
our
adjudicators
to
truly
adjudicate
claims
and
eventually
to
work
side
by
side
with
our
our
Ernst
young
vendor
partner
and
get
them
off
of
the
phones
where,
obviously,
the
individuals
that
were
detailed
for
for
a
Time
pardon
me
until
we
were
staffed
up
in
our
call.
Centers
could
provide
that
that
front
line
service,
customer
service
and
again
claims
processing
for
our
oui
team.
A
I'm
curious,
why
you
know
in
less
than
30
days
into
that
process,
again
awarding
them
7.6
million
that
we
had
to
award
them
additional
4.4?
Did
they
not
understand
the
scope
of
the
work?
Was
it
buying
the
work
more
than
they
initially
anticipated,
or
why
was
an
additional
4.4
million
need
to
be
expended
to
them.
J
To
my
knowledge,
the
modification
allowed
for
Ernst
young
to
provide
additional
service
beyond
the
the
time
that
it
had
originally
been
allotted
under
the
original
contract.
So
it's
not
a
matter
of
somebody,
not
understanding
the
scope
of
work
I
believe
they
understood
the
scope
of
work.
Fine,
it's
a
matter
of
providing
additional
Services
beyond
the
original
contract
date.
A
Well,
I,
don't
think
that's
always
an
issue
when
you
have
a
no-bid
contracts,
I've
seen
it
too
many
times
on
our
government
contract
Review
Committee
that
we
will
award
a
contract
or
one
will
be
awarded.
Then
whatever
group
receives
a
contract,
we'll
come
back
much
later
and
say:
oh
we've
got
additional
work
that
we
need
to
do
so.
We
need
to
know
the
contract.
So
that's
just
the
caution.
I
give
everyone
when
you're,
looking
at
no
B
contracts
or
sore
Source
contracts,
I
think
it's
not
the
best
way
to
spend
their
dollars
and.
J
A
Chair
of
that
committee,
I
was
worried
that
thank
you
last
thing
I
have
for.
You
is
just
clarification
on
the
question
or
the
answer
to
Senator
Higdon's
question
about
the
current
status
of
our
employment
system.
My
understanding
is,
a
contract
was
awarded,
but
the
vendor
that
received
the
contract
become
non-responsive.
If
that's
the
appropriate
term,
and
we
found
out
that
the
two
principles
with
that
firm
have
been
indicted,
I
believe
in
New
Jersey,
so
that
contract
had
to
be
terminated
in
the
contract
itself
being
rebid
and
that's
the
current
situation.
J
J
The
the
current
state,
as
I
mentioned
before
of
the
RFP,
is
that
we
are
rebidding
this
process.
It
is
correct
to
say
that
two
individuals
with
this
particular
vendor
I'm,
not
aware
of
whether
they're
principals
or
or
not
did
receive
indictments
related
to
a
contract,
I
believe
in
a
in
another
state
relating
to
Deloitte.
J
But
in
terms
of
of
of
that
that
has
no
impact
on
our
our
specific
procurement.
What
I
will
say
is
that,
while
we're
we're
in
the
process
of
procuring
a
vendor,
27
other
states
are
either
in
the
process
of
of
revamping
their
system
and
have
already
procured
a
vendor
or
in
the
process
of
procuring
a
vendor
procuring
a
a
vendor
to
to
revamp
your
your
office
of
unemployment.
Insurance
system
does
not
happen
every
week
as
I
as
I'm
sure
you
can
imagine.
Most
of
them
don't
happen
for
decades.
J
So
what
I
can
say
is
that
the
the
demand
for
these
Services
is
high
and
the
amount
of
vendors
is
is
low.
So
we
understand
the
frustration
with
the
with
the
time
it
takes
to
to
find
a
vendor
that
is
suitable
for
the
the
Commonwealth's
needs,
and
we
are
working
towards
that
that
eventuality
and
and
to
revamp
the
system.
A
You
know
this
time
now
that
we're
dealing
with
now
is
obviously
challenged,
because
this
situation
may
not
have
signed
a
contract
with
that
firm
was
awarded
a
contract
because
they
were
the
only
successful
bidder
criticism
we
might
not
just
trying
to
state
fact
here
that
the
reason
that
we're
now
having
to
rebid
this
is
because
of
what
happened
to
this
company.
That
supposedly
was
going
to
be
the
successful
bidder,
for
is
that
not
true.
J
That's
not
correct
a
bidder
became
unresponsive
and
we
never
engaged
a
contract
or
signed
a
contract,
and
so
we
determined
that
it
was
appropriate
for
the
Commonwealth
to
move
on
and
to
seek
out
new
potential
vendors
that
may
be
able
to
suit
our
needs.
So.
J
H
Thank
you,
committee
I
appreciate
it
in
one
point:
I
just
want
to
make
representative
Stevenson
representative
McCool
on
behalf
of
the
veterans
that
that
you
visited
during
the
Kentucky
kdva
state
conference.
They
both
talked
to
the
veterans
service
organization,
leadership
across
the
state
and
they
showed
a
powerful
message
of
bipartisanship.
So
I
really
appreciate
that
representative,
McCool
and
and
Stevenson
Nate,
and
also
you
the
assembly
did
provide
a
certificate
of
appreciation
to
my
team
and
I
want
to
say.
Thank
you
have
a
blessed
day.
A
L
We
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
come
here
today
to
talk
to
you
and
about
and
take
on
any
questions
you
might
have
about
the
Fire
Commission
or
what
you
know.
What
we're
doing
I'd
like
to
give
you
a
little
bit
of
an
overview
of
the
Fire
Commission
I've,
been
here
what
I
consider
to
be
new,
but
three
years
now.
So
it's
been
a
long
learning
experience
for
me,
but
I
found
that
a
lot
of
people
really
don't
understand
the
Fire
Commission
and
what
we
do.
But
we
do
have.
L
We
have
13
offices
across
the
state
of
Kentucky
State
Fire
Rescue
trainers,
part
of
the
Fire
Commission,
and
about
500
employees,
which
is
about
four
to
450.
Those
employees
are
part-time
fire
instructors,
and
so
we
provide
a
lot
of
services
to
the
fire
service
in
the
state
of
Kentucky,
from
incentive
pay
to
state
aid
to
volunteers,
to
workers
comp
fund
that
we
do
for
them,
loans,
low
interest
loans.
Also,
we
have
a
lot
of
grants
that
we
have
put
out
for
the
fire
departments.
L
A
But
always
appreciate
you,
gentlemen,
being
here,
and
certainly
our
volunteer
fire
departments,
our
main
state
of
our
communities,
particular
rural
communities.
I
know
last
session,
though
the
last
couple
sessions
we
passed
some
bills
to
try
to
reinforce
the
demand
power
needs
of
our
respective
voluntary
fire
department's.
You
mentioned
eighteen
thousand
voluntary
fire
members
is
that
the
current
number,
because
I
thought
it
was
significantly
less
paid.
C
Over
the
years,
that's
probably
decreased
by
probably
two
to
three
thousand
volunteer
firefighters,
it's
just
because
it's
just
it's
hard
to
get
individuals
to
to
volunteers
or
time
nowadays,
because
they're
working
two
and
three
jobs
or
they're
working,
you
know
out
of
town
or
wherever
and
just
like
the
bill
that
you
passed
last
session,
the
merger
Bill
we're
hoping
that
that
will
help
you
know
bring
these
fire
departments
together.
That
don't
have
enough.
C
You
know
to
have
a
fire
department
that
will
merge
and
that
could
probably
bring
more
people
into
into
their
fire
department
because
it'll
be
throughout
the
whole
County.
Instead
of
just
a
fire
department
here,
a
fire
department,
there
it'll
just
be
one
big
fire
department,
so
hopefully
that'll
help
recruit
some
of
the
younger
people
back
into
their
Community
to
help
on
the
fire
service.
C
Correct,
yes,
yes
and
it's
eleven
thousand
five,
because
there
was
500
put
into
the
budget
this
past
current
session,
so
it's
11
5
now
that
they
will
be
able
to
keep
you
know
when
they
merge
from
now
on,
yes,
I've.
A
M
I
do
thank
you
all
for
being
here
today.
The
Fire
Commission
explain
the
I.
Guess
your
structure
under
kctcs
there's
also
a
board
too
correct
that,
under
that
board,
members
appointed
by
the
governor.
L
Yes,
we
have
a,
we
have
a
Fire
Commission,
a
board
of
directors
within
the
Fire
Commission
and
we
are
we
fall
under
kctcs,
although
we're
not
funded
through
kctcs
or
through
tax
dollars,
is
through
an
insurance
premium
surcharge
and
that's
how
our
budget
and
our
funds
come
through
to
pay
all
the
incentive
state
aid
loans,
all
the
stuff
that
we
do.
M
That
you
know
I
have
in
the
past
couple
years
and
and
my
my
Senate
District
several
cases
of
of
Fraud
and
and
dealing
with
training
hours
and
and
just
really
I
think
poor
oversight
I
think
it
would
be.
You
know,
I
somewhat
told
the
Fire
Commission
somewhat
responsible
for
some
of
the
things
that
that
have
happened
because
I
feel
like
maybe
that
it
was
poor
oversight
and
I
know
you
don't
particularly
know
the
the
cases
I'm
talking
about
and
I
won't
bring
them
bring
them
up.
M
C
C
They
they
go
to
these
fire
houses
once
a
year
and
they
audit
their
books,
their
checkbook,
their
training
records
their
gear
to
make
sure
that
they're
in
compliance
by
by
the
state
law,
and
when
we
find
that
there's
I
guess
the
malpractice
of
money
where
or
they
have
forged
training
records.
We
actually
sit
down
and
look
at
each
training
record
and
if
we
see
something
that
stands
out
to
us,
it'll
come
back
to
the
board
and
the
board
will
make
a
recommendation.
C
You
know
to
bring
these
people
in
and
actually
look
at
the
records
and
and
see
if
there's
falsification.
So
there
is
quite
a
bit
of
oversight
to
the
fire
departments.
You
know
when
it
comes
to
training
records
and
spending.
The
money
like
I,
said
we
try
to
get
in
every
fire
department
yearly
to
make
sure
that
everything's
done
correctly
and
a
lot
of
times,
I've
been
there
for
15
years
and
I
sat
on
the
board
for
12
before
I
became
full-time.
C
A
lot
of
times
is
that
when
you
walk
into
a
department-
and
you
start
looking
at
their
training
records,
you'll
see
that
you
have
to
sign
your
name
and
then
initial
it
and
then
you'll
start
looking
at
records
and
you'll
see
where
these
these
signatures
all
look
about
the
same.
So
then
you
start
going
back.
You
have
to
have
a
yellow
sheet
from
a
training
to
match
the
roster.
C
So
you
try
to
compare
them
and
when
things
don't
match
up,
then
you
start
bringing
people
in
and
asking
about
you
know:
can
you
justify
this
training,
or
is
this
your
signature
and
that's
how
that's
how
the
a
lot
of
the
oversight's
done?
That's
where
we
have
caught.
You
know
a
lot
of
the
forgeries
on
the
training.
L
But
to
Senator
if
I
might
add
to
that.
It's
like
when
I
came
there
three
years
ago,
Bruce
was
heavily
involved
in
the
investigation
side
of
that
on
these
fire
departments,
and
what
I
found
out
is
we
was
doing
so
many
investigations.
It
was
taken
away
from
their
ability
to
go
out
and
do
their
audits,
so
I
went
to
them.
I
said
how
can
we
fix
this?
L
So
we
had
three
of
the
Auditors
that
went
out
and
they
said
if
we
had
the
fourth
auditor,
because
they
were
only
going
out
three
to
four
every
third
or
four
years,
three
or
four
years,
and
so
now
we've
got
it
down
to
12
months
and
and
my
reasoning
behind
that
being
a
fire
chief
for
24
years.
Was
these
Fire
Chiefs
a
lot
in
these
rural
areas
in
in
areas
around
the
state
of
Kentucky?
L
They
don't
understand
a
lot
of
stuff
that
they
need
to
be
doing
or
how
they
need
to
deal
with
their
finances
and
and
everything
else,
and
if
we
can
get
these
Auditors
in
with
them
with
which
they
talk
to
them
and
they
get
with
them
about
their
fire
departments.
They
give
us
a
better
ability
to
educate
them
on
what
they
need
to
do.
So
now
we're
mandated
to
go
out
every
12
months
and
have
an
audit
done
of
these
departments
and
I.
Think
that'll
that'll
help
us
in
that
oversight
that
we're
doing
now.
C
M
Mr
chairman,
another
question:
if
you
don't
mind
now
it's
my
understanding
that
these
firefighters,
you
volunteer,
firefighters
when
they
receive
instruction
when
they
go
to
class,
they
are.
They
are
paid
for
that
time
in
class.
Is
that
correct.
E
Thank
you,
chairman
Meredith
representative
Blanton
and
representative
Wesley
got
to
brag
on
the
police
force
presence
from
Madison
County
I
get
to
brag
on
the
fire
from
Bourbon
County.
So
just
they've
been
located.
There
was
it
two
years
now,
gentlemen,
two
years
two
years
and
it's
been
a
been
a
blessing
to
have
him
here.
It's
absolutely
awesome
to
watch
all.
J
The
different
counties
and
fire
departments
that
represented
coming
in
out
of
that
parking
lot
we're
just
super
glad
to
have
you
and
thanks
for.
E
J
G
Thank
you
Mr
chairman,
so
there
was
780
fire
departments
total.
Is
that
somewhere.
G
Yes,
sir,
so
if,
if
I
may
Mr,
chairman
I
did
file
a
bill,
we're
working
on
it's
an
ABC
bill
that
it's
not
to
raise
taxes,
but
this
is
the
alcohol
and
sales
tax
that
it'll
be
up
to
the
discretion
of
the
local
government,
because
they
know
the
fire
department's
more
than
anybody
that
they
can
separate
them.
Tax
monies
tax
dollars
to
volunteer
fire
departments,
so
we
try
to
include
them
and
I
appreciate
Powell
County
for
being
here.
G
This
morning
we
have
three
volunteer
fire
departments
in
Powell,
County,
none
paid
and
so
we're
trying
to
find
funding,
as
as
best
as
we
can
to
distribute
to
you,
and
so,
if
that's
a
way
that
we
can,
you
know
an
evident
that
we
can
push
some
funding
towards
you.
That's
that's
one
way
that
we're
trying.
So
we
I
just
appreciate
you
being
here
and
everything
you
do
all
the
sacrifices
of
our
First
Responders,
what
they
do.
So.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
thank.
O
Yeah
I
just
want
to
say
thanks:
I
always
enjoy
working
with
the
firefighters
they
with
Bruce
and
Brian
O'neal
and
John's
back.
They
always
are
very,
very
understanding
of
what
needs
to
be
done
and
when
it
comes
to
legislating
or
whatnot,
there's
no
fop
here
so
I
think
I
think
the
firefighters
a
little
more
educated
on
things
than
the
fop
and
that
I
really
appreciate
that.
I've
worked
with
both
of
them
and
let
me
tell
you
this
Fern
Creek,
just
combined
with
mutual
and
Louisville.
O
C
Because
at
that
time,
they're
they're,
both
career
firefighter
fire
departments,
and
so
they
don't
draw
state
aid
or
anything
they
do
draw
incentive
pay.
So
really
the
only
thing
that
they
had
to
do
with
us
was
we
had
to
get
a
letter
from
both
the
fire
chiefs,
agreeing
for
the
merger
and
then
a
letter
from
the
mayor
agreeing
to
it
and
basically,
we
just
put
them
both
together,
so
that
didn't
affect
any
funding
or
anything
like
that.
No.
A
P
Thank
you
very
much,
I
did
want
to
say,
representative,
McCool
and
I
have
both
worked
on
a
bill
to
provide
incentives
to
recruit
and
retain
volunteer
firefighters,
because,
as
many
of
the
folks
here,
you
know
my
district.
We
have
over
20
volunteer
firefighter
fire
departments,
and
we
only
have
two
paid
fire
departments
and
those
volunteer
fire
departments.
They
not
only
help
in
cases
of
fire
and
rescue,
but
they
also
help
in
cases
of
auto
accidents
until
the
police
can
arrive.
Things
of
that
nature
and
they're
very
important,
especially
to
our
rural
communities.
P
The
bill
that
we've
been
attempting
to
advance
offers
a
up
to
a
thousand
dollar
tax
credit
for
volunteer
firefighters
if
they're
certified
and
have
all
their
appropriate
hours.
Is
that
something
that
or
is
there
something
else
that
you
can
suggest,
because
a
lot
of
us
do
recognize
how
important
our
our
firefighters
are
to
our
areas?
Is
there
something
else
that
you
would
suggest
or
would
would
the
Fire
Commission
be
supportive
of
a
bill
like
that?
Would
would
that
help
to
retain
and
recruit
additional
firefighters,
I.
C
I
think
it
would
I
mean
I've
been
up.
I've
been
coming
up
here,
probably
a
long
time,
probably
at
least
20
years
and
I
know
that
that
tax
credit
has
been
out
there,
probably
the
whole
20
years,
I've
been
here,
been
coming
up
and
I
think
anything
like
that
would
help
recruit.
You
know
the
volunteer.
Firefighters
I
mean
because
you
all
they
always
talk
about.
You
know,
and
that's
that's
one
of
the
first
ones
that
ever
come
whatever
happened
to
our
tax
incentive.
C
A
Q
Absolutely
my
name
is
Trace
Chesser
I'm,
the
president
and
CEO
of
USA
cares
I
want
to
thank
you
all
for
allowing
me
to
speak
to
you
today.
Unfortunately,
I
was
not
able
to
be
there
I'm.
Actually
in
Nashville
Tennessee
meeting
with
a
large
organization
that
supports
USA
cares
in
our
effort
to
support
our
veterans
I'm,
going
to
try
to
share
a
PowerPoint
with
you
and
again
I'll
need
your
help.
Let
me
know
if
you
can
actually
see
that.
Q
You
can
thank
you
very
much,
so
this
is
a
story.
That's
actually
celebrating
the
citizens
of
the
Commonwealth,
and
it's
also
a
story
of
great
need.
So
USA
cares
was
formed
in
2003
right
outside
of
Fort
Knox,
our
Community
there
wave
TV,
3,
Kroger
and
Fort
Knox
got
together
in
2003.
We
had
that
large
surge
going
back
into
Iraq.
Q
There
were
a
lot
of
individuals
coming
home
that
suffered
from
injuries,
and
we
noticed
it
so
they
started
a
fundraising
effort,
selling
yard
signs,
that's
how
USA
cares
was
formed,
so
the
citizens
of
Kentucky
is
actually
what
created
USA
cares
and
our
efforts.
What
I
want
to
point
out
there's
a
lot
of
things.
I
could
tell
you
about.
Usa
cares,
but
with
this
short
amount
of
time,
what
I
need
to
say
to
you
is
that
bottom
line
there?
Why
do
we
do
this?
Q
Well,
we
know
for
a
fact-
and
we've
heard
from
VA
members,
we've
heard
from
individuals
themselves,
we've
heard
from
military
leaders
that
the
services
that
we're
providing
and
at
the
point
in
time
that
we're
providing
it
they
are
reducing
factors
that
can
contribute
to
veteran
suicide.
Q
That
is
something
that
everyone's
debating
is
it's
17
a
day
is
a
22
a
day.
Is
it
more
than
that?
So
that
is
something
that
we
need
to
identify
and
wrap
our
our
brains
around.
Is
that
we're
losing
way
too
many
veterans
per
day,
and
so
a
lot
of
times?
It's
lost
sense
of
purpose,
loss
of
controlling
their
life
transition
difficulties,
and
so
that's
a
problem.
Q
Q
They
state
that
we
have
lost
over
30
000
service
members
to
suicide
so
four
times
as
many,
so
it
there's
a
there's,
a
serious
problem
there,
but
USA
cares
formed
here
in
Kentucky
right
outside
of
Fort
Knox
now
located
in
Louisville
Kentucky.
The
headquarters
is
here:
we
run
all
operations
out
of
Kentucky,
but
since
2011
we've
stopped
over
4
000
evictions.
Q
If
you
look
at
home
saved-
and
you
add
them
up
throughout
those
areas-
we've
saved
over
4
000
families
from
eviction
and
keeping
them
together,
and
you
can
imagine
that
if
you
keep
family
members
together,
that
the
healing
process
is
much
more
effective
again
when
they
send
them
away
to
go,
live
with
someone
else
and
they
feel
like
a
failure.
They
feel
like.
No
one
cares.
They
feel
alone.
That's
when
the
probability
of
suicide
escalates
quickly.
Q
Q
Q
Q
It's
just
it's
overwhelming,
because
all
of
our
funding
that's
coming
to
us
comes
from
private
donors
corporations,
so
it
the
the
need
is
great,
and
everyone
keeps
kind
of
passing
the
buck
along.
A
lot
of
people
ask
me
is
USA,
cares.
I
haven't
heard
of
you,
so
are
you
really
that
great
of
an
organization
on
the
20th
anniversary
of
9,
11
Newsweek
magazine
did
a
big
article
talking
about
the
tens
of
thousands
of
non-profits
that
were
formed
out
of
the
tragedy
of
9
11.?
Q
They
decided
they
were
going
to
go
back
and
list
six
organizations
that
are
actually
still
performing
their
mission
and
doing
it
in
an
honorable
way.
Usa
cares
was
one
of
the
six
that
was
mentioned
as
being
one
of
the
top
organizations
out
there
and
again.
You
should
be
proud
of
that,
because
we're
here
in
Kentucky,
recognized
on
Fox,
News
and
USA
cares
was
named
non-profit
of
the
year
about
greater
Louisville
ink
during
covert.
Q
We're
doing
a
lot
of
Outreach
and
trying
to
get
other
groups
involved
and
trying
to
get
chapters
going
across
the
country.
My
problem
is
when
I
stepped
into
this
role.
I
realized
we're
getting
about
a
hundred
applications
a
week
saying
I'm
a
veteran
and
I'm
in
a
crisis
situation
and
I
need
help
and
they
were
coming
from
all
over
the
country.
But
at
that
point
the
majority
of
the
fundraising
from
individuals
and
corporations
were
all
right
around
Kentucky,
so
I
needed
to
use
the
strategy
to
reach
out
and
get
more
areas
involved.
Q
So
that's
what
this
is
about.
Our
chapters
program
is
just
getting
volunteers
across
the
country
involved
and
engaged
with
what
we're
doing,
with
the
Commonwealth
from
2011
to
2021,
we've
provided
over
384
000
dollars
to
729
struggling
families
in
this
area.
We're
very
proud
of
that.
Another
thing
that
USA
cares
does
is
we
have
an
official
memorandum
of
agreement
with
the
Department
of
Defense
Department
of
the
army
under
insulation
management
command,
and
we
have
a
senior
leader
corporate
fellowship
program.
Q
Then
we've
ran
63
senior
leaders
through
that
before
they
actually
retire
and
separate
from
the
military
and
I'll
say
military,
because
it's
not
Army.
Only
we've
had
other
branches
come
here
as
well,
but
with
this
program
we're
putting
them
with
corporations
that
are
in
Kentucky
and
putting
them
through
this
training
program
for
eight
weeks
they
go
with
a
corporation
and
we've
had
tremendous
success,
very
high
numbers
over
90
percent
of
them
obtaining
employment.
So
USA
cares.
Q
The
floods
in
Eastern
Kentucky,
that
was
something
I,
was
contacted
by
a
friend
that
is
a
senior
level
individual
with
the
Kentucky
guard.
That
said,
hey
we
have
guard
members
that
are
impacted
by
the
floods.
Can
you,
as
USA
cares
knowing
what
you
always
do?
Can
you
actually
help
them
to
restore
their
lives
and
get
everything
back
in
order?
Q
They
were
telling
us
that
FEMA
is
taking
way
too
long
and
then
the
other
programs
that
are
out
there.
They
maybe
give
500,
but
that's
about
it,
and
so
can
you
do
that?
Well,
once
again,
USA
cares
is
stepping
up
to
the
plate
and
we
reached
out
to
donors,
individual
donors,
and
we
raised
funds,
but
the
majority
of
the
funds
over
seventy
thousand
dollars
that
we
raised
came
from
individuals,
not
even
in
Kentucky.
Q
Q
We
cannot
do
this
on
private
donors
and
corporations
funding
alone,
and
so
we
need
help
from
everyone
with
that
Kentucky
funds
I
committed
to
100
about
the
donations
coming
in
100
is
going
out
to
those
guard
members,
so
we're
doing
everything
we
can
I'm.
Actually
I
had
a
call
an
hour
ago
with
Miss
DJ
Watson
she's,
the
chief
of
staff
with
public
protection
cabinet
I'm,
trying
to
work
with
them
because
they
receive
funds
from
Team,
Kentucky,
I
told
them.
I
said
we
won't
keep
any
of
it
for
ourselves.
Q
Q
If
you
count
all
veterans
that
are
there,
it's
over
nineteen
thousand
veterans
that
have
been
in
that
area
impacted
by
the
flood
and
right
now,
they're
only
giving
them
help
from
FEMA
and
possibly
five
hundred
dollars,
and
we
know
that
it
takes
more
than
that
to
actually
help
a
family
get
back
together.
So
I
just
wanted
to
give
you
that
brief
overview.
Let
you
know
what
we're
doing
make
sure
that
you
understand
that
USA
cares
is
a
kentucky-based
organization
that
has
a
national
Mission,
that's
helping
our
Warriors.
So
thank
you
for
your
time.
A
A
Q
Again,
if
you
can
find
different
individuals
that
will
help
us
with
funding
I'll
commit
those
funds
to
Kentucky
veterans,
I'll
commit
them
to
active
duty,
military
that
are
going
through
crisis
situations.
There
are
a
lot
of
them
that
are
having
a
very
tough
time,
because
inflation
has
gone
up
so
much,
but
the
military
pay
hasn't
changed.
Cost
of
living
hasn't
changed,
so
we're
seeing
individuals
for
Campbell
we're
seeing
them
in
Fort
Knox
that
are
having
a
very
difficult
time
being
able
to
pay
their
bills.
Again.
Q
I
mentioned
I'm
working
with
a
lot
of
the
the
federal
government
elected
officials
to
try
to
figure
out
how
can
I
get
some
funding
from
the
VA.
They
have
so
much
funding
setting
there
that
isn't
even
being
distributed,
and
so
these
different
elected
officials
I'm
talking
about
you
know
like
Congressman
Guthrie.
Q
You
know
I'm
working
with
Congressman
at
McCormick
out
of
Florida
Mark
decano
I
have
a
call
with
him.
On
Monday
we
work
with
Senator
McConnell's
office,
Senator
Paul's,
Senator
Cinema,
out
of
Arizona
senator
Blackwell
out
of
Tennessee.
We
got
upcoming
calls
with
Senator
Rubio
we've
met
with
the
governor
with
Kentucky
I.
Think.
That's
the
thing
is:
I,
don't
know
how
to
stress
this
enough.
We
are
a
501c3
that
we're
operating
from
Individual
donors.
Q
Those
donations
dwindle
quickly.
So
if
there's
anything
that
you
can
do
to
help
us
with
funding
for
veterans
in
emergency
situations
like
say
primarily
the
stopping
evictions
foreclosures
getting
them
food
turning
on
utilities
or
if
it's
with
the
Eastern
Kentucky
floods,
we'll
expand
our
services
because
that's
a
different
situation.
O
Thank
you,
sir.
The
USA
cares
is
right
at
the
edge
of
my
district
in
J-Town
and
I.
I
know
for
a
fact
what
a
great
great
job
they
do,
but
I
do
want
to
talk
about
the
17
or
22
suicides.
O
Trace
does
is
that
how
many
of
that
is
in
Kentucky?
Do
you
do
you
know.
Q
No
I,
don't
what
I'll
do
is
I'll
get
that
information
to
you,
I'll
research,
it
I'll
get
it
to
you
and
you
can
share
it
with
the
committee
here
again.
You
know
the
VA
talked
about
in
2019
how
they
had
such
a
a
handle
on
this
that
the
number
was
declining
and
it
was
17.
well
during
covet,
I
started
getting
information
saying
we
need.
Organizations
like
USA
cares
to
do
more,
because
that
number
is
now
surpassed
22
a
day.
Q
There
are
reports
that,
if
you
go
out
and
research
yourself,
there
are
reports
that
say
that
it's
as
high
as
44
veterans
a
day.
So
if
you
just
you
do
the
research
you'll
find
out,
those
numbers
are
all
over
the
board,
but.
E
Q
O
Q
We
put
these
young
people
in
these
very
difficult
situations
and
they
have
to
defend
all
of
us
and
it's
not
clear
in
a
lot
of
cases
how
it
should
run,
and
so
they
are
experiencing
some
of
the
worst
things
you
can
ever
imagine
and
any
of
our
veterans
that
are
in
there
that's
experienced
this
I'm
sure
you
can
agree
with
me
it.
It
leaves
a
long
lasting
effect
and
then,
besides
the
PTSD,
traumatic
brain
and
you
have
traumatic
brain
injury,
you
have
the
different
physical
limitations.
Q
A
Thank
for
the
question
representative,
brecher
and
again,
thank
you
for
your
presentation.
Thank
you
for
your
service
to
our
country
and
the
mission
you're
carrying
for
us
and
we'll
look
forward
to
further
engagement
with
you
and
over
the
next
several
months.
But
thank
you
for
being
a
part
of
our
committee
this
morning.
Q
Thank
you
and
again
I'm.
Sorry
I'm,
not
there
in
person.
Hopefully,
I
can
come
in
and
join
you
in
the
future.
Soon
we.
A
Hope
so
as
well,
thank
you
before
we
adjourn
I
would
like
to
invite
to
sheriff
Cole
and
his
deputies.
If
you'd
like
to
come
up
and
say
a
few
words
about
what
we're
going
to
see
this
afternoon
or
anything
else,
you'd
like
to
talk
about.
A
N
I'd
like
to
thank
the
committee
for
having
us
here
today,
I'd
like
to
thank
representative
Wesley
for
all
his
support
that
he
gives
all
law
enforcement
and
all
of
the
folks
there
in
Madison
County
that
that
he
comes
always
out
I,
also
like
that
to
thank
representative
Blanton
for
his
kind
words
when
we've
opened
this
meeting
up
we're
here
today
to
talk
about
our
K-9
program
and
we
made
a
commitment
back
early
on
I'm,
actually
running
for
my
third
term,
but
retired
from
the
state,
police
and
I
have
40
plus
years
of
service.
N
But
we
made
a
commitment
years
ago
that
we
were
going
to
fight
the
drug
problem
in
Madison,
County,
the
drug
epidemic
and
one
way
that
we've
been
doing
it
is
through
our
canine
program
we
committed
to
it.
We
had
five
canines
at
one
time
we
had
one
of
our
officers
retire,
so
we're
down
to
four,
but
I
wished
every
officer
we
had
had
a
canine.
That's
how
much
we
believe
in
this
program.
N
They
do
a
lot
of
good
air,
canines
and
I'll.
Let
one
of
the
others
explain
it
to
you
in
just
a
minute,
but
air
canines
are
are
trained.
They
work
each
and
every
day
very
diligently.
We
always
have
a
canine
on
a
shift.
N
We
do
three
shifts
there
in
Madison
County,
so
you
know
we're
tickled
to
death
with
the
program
that
we
have
and
what
they're
capable
of
doing,
but
they're
apprehension
dogs
as
well
as
drug
dogs
and
I,
can
say
that
the
canine
handlers
that
we
have
of
the
canine
itself
and
the
program
is
only
good
as
the
handlers,
and
we
have
three
of
our
handlers
here
today
and
they
do
an
excellent
job
and
I'd
like
to
also
invite
you
off
when
they
go
out
to
do
a
demonstration
that
you
come
out
and
watch
them
in
action
and
thank
you
for
letting
us
be
here
today.
N
E
My
name
is
Deputy
Martin
Wesley,
a
dog
handler
for
the
Madison
County
Sheriff's
Office
I,
also
a
retired
trooper,
I
retired
in
2017
from
the
state
police.
My
last
11
years,
I
worked
in
Special
Operations
in
the
canine
section.
E
A
You
know
the
business
come
before
this
committee,
if
not
immediately
following
adjournment,
we'll
have
this
presentation
out
to
the
front
of
the
Capitol
between
the
Capitol
and
the
annex.
So
if
you
can,
please
make
yourself
available
and
if
you
still
need
to
run
out
and
move
some
drugs
from
your
car
feel
free
to
do
that
and
we'll
wait
for
you.
But
if
there's
nothing
else,.