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From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on Tourism, Small Business, and Information Technology (9-28-23)
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A
C
D
E
F
G
I
C
J
A
Present,
okay:
we've
got
a
quorum
at
this
point
time,
I'd
like
to
I,
have
a
motion
to
approve
the
minut
minutes
for
our
last
meeting
motion
on
minutes,
I
got
a
second
thank
you!
So
passed.
Okay,
let's
get
right
down
to
business!
All
right!
We're
going.
First
we're
going
to
change
up
a
little
bit.
We're
going
to
have
HG
go
last.
They
have
graciously
agreed
to,
but
first
we
have
tax
policy
on
small
business
health
insurance.
Would
you
please
come
up
ruce
yourself
for
the
record
and
please.
K
Proceed,
thank
you
Mr
chairman
and
members
of
the
committee.
My
name
is
Tom
Underwood
I'm,
the
state
director
for
the
national
Federation
of
Independent
Business,
it's
the
largest
small
business
group
in
the
United
States,
and
we
have
thousands
of
Main,
Street,
M
and
pop
businesses
are
members.
Our
typical
members
have
three
to
five
employees
so
we're
talking
about
the
real
real,
true
entrepreneurs
down
there
today,
I'd
like
to
talk
to
you
about
inequity
in
treatment
of
small
business,
but
I
have
to
start
with
a
little
history
lesson.
K
K
It
was
remarkably
similar
to
the
1993
Clinton
Health
Security
Act
proposal
that
was
championed
by
the
then
first
lady,
with
the
passage
of
House
Bill
250,
with
its
guaranteed
issue,
mandatory
uniform
health
insurance
policies
and
regulations
from
the
newly
created
Kentucky
Health
policy
board.
The
changes
proved
to
be
too
much
for
health
insurance
providers
in
Kentucky,
40
health
insurance
companies
fled
the
market
and
leaving
only
two
Alternatives
in
1998.
K
The
creation
of
the
guaranteed
Access
program,
which
is
known
as
Gap,
was
created
to
subsidize
premiums
for
high
cost
individuals,
and
it
was
based
on
high-cost
individuals
with
guaranteed
issue.
This
was
funded
by
a
tax
on
health
insurance
premiums,
tobacco
settlement
funds
and
a
provider
tax
on
doctors
and
hospitals
as
house
Bell
250
crumbled
under
political
pressure
Gap
then
evolved
into
Kentucky
access.
Another
version
of
a
highrisk
pool
that
pool
operated
from
2001
to
2013.
K
At
that
point,
Kentucky
access
was
no
longer
needed
because
of
the
federal
Affordable
Care
Act
and
expansion
of
Medicaid
Eligibility
Kentucky
access,
then
morphed
into
a
funding
source
for
programs
such
as
connect
the
state
health
insurance
Network.
While
the
gap
program
in
the
original
Kentucky
Access
program
are
no
longer
needed
to
care
for
high-risk
individuals,
logic
would
lead
us
to
believe
that
the
tax
assessed
on
insurance
premiums
would
go
away.
That
is
not
the
case.
Health
insurance
premiums
are
still
being
taxed
on
Gross
at
1%.
K
Now
that
doesn't
sound
a
lot
when
you
say
1%,
but
with
the
spiraling
cost
of
Health
health
insurance
over
the
years.
This
is
a
dramatic
effect,
particularly
on
small
business
and
individuals
in
KRS
3041
17b,
21
sub1.
There
is
a
listing
of
those
that
are
exempt
from
the
tax.
The
exemptions
include
federal
state
and
local
Public,
Employee
programs,
Medicaid
recipients,
Medicare
beneficiaries,
military
champus,
insurers
and
all
irisa
qualified
self-insured
plans.
Arisa
program
plans
are
typically
for
large
corporations
and
unions
to
create
their
own
programs
that
are
exempt
from
most
government
mandates.
K
So
who
does
that
leave
to
pay
the
tax?
The
only
people
left
are
small
business
and
individuals.
Krs
30417,
A5,
sub,
45
I'm
practicing
be
a
lawyer,
but
I
don't
think
it's
going
to
work
out
defines
a
small
group
as
a
small
employer
with
two
to
50
employees.
The
definition
of
individuals
obvious
the
concern
I
bring
to
you
today
is
a
matter
of
tax
Equity,
section
59
of
the
Kentucky
Constitution
prohibits
special
legislation,
creating
disparity
in
the
treatment
of
similar
groups.
K
Section
171
of
the
Kentucky
Constitution
says:
taxes
shall
be
levied
and
collected
for
public
purposes
only
and
shall
be
uniform
upon
all
property
of
the
same
class.
Small
business
and
individuals
have
now
paid
this
tax
for
30
years.
As
health
insurance
premiums
continue
to
Skyrocket
Healthcare
is
a
societal
problem.
Any
taxes
levied
for
that
purpose
should
apply
to
all
or
To
None.
We
ask
for
Equitable
treatment
for
small
business
and
the
individuals
across
the
state.
I
have
some
historical
references
here.
K
This
report
came
from
the
Heritage
Foundation
in
1997,
authored
by
Rachel
mccubbin,
and
it
too
gives
a
perspective
on
what
happened
during
the
health
care
period
of
the
90s
three
different
perspectives,
all
basically
coming
to
the
same
conclusion
that
the
program
did
not
work
so.
K
I
It's
all
right,
thank
you
for
being
here
this
morning
or
this
afternoon
now,
do
you
have
a
ballpark
on
that
1%
of
gross
would
be
and
the
overall
tax
expenditure
if
the
exemptions
were
paying.
K
I,
do
not
have
those
numbers.
I
do
have
a
Bill
draft
with
analysis
that
was
created
by
the
anr
staff
last
last
year.
It
did
not
include
a
fiscal
impact
statement,
but
but
it
should
be
easy
to
get
as
it
is.
A
revenue
Source
coming
in
and
accounted
for
and
I
apologize
for
not
having.
D
Well,
representative,
King,
asked
half
of
my
question
so
I
appreciate
that
very
much
I'd
like
to
know
how
much
total
revenue
we're
talking
about
with
that
1%
and
then
specifically
that
revenue
is
it
directly
allocated
to
a
certain
funding
source,
or
does
it
go
just
generically
into
the
general
fund?
It's.
J
D
Could
we
could
we
ask
Department
of
Finance
or
Department
of
Revenue
or
Department
of
Insurance,
one
of
the
18
departments,
that
this
thing
touches
to
find
out
exactly
do
a
forensic
audit
of
where
how
much
money
and
where
the
money
is
going
and
what
it's
funding.
K
I
would
love
that
opportunity
to
get
that
information
and
if,
if
that
would
be
done,
I
would
suggest
it
come
from
the
lrc
the
request,
so
they
can
get
all
the
documents.
I
would
probably
forget
to
ask
for
some.
Okay.
A
Thank
you
thanks,
sir,
you
know
again.
Lot
of
us
in
here
are
small
business
owners
and,
again
again,
I
will
tell
you
that
I,
we
forewarned
our
employees
the
other
day
that
our
health
insurance
going
up
somewhere
between
5
to
7%
this
year
and
that's
with
us
shopping
it,
and
so,
as
benefits,
keep
going
down
costs
keep
going
up.
You
keep
wondering.
Why
are
we
doing
that,
and
also,
as
a
point
of
privilege,
I
am
an
nfib
member,
so
proud,
member
of
it
and
I.
K
I
would
welcome
that
opportunity
to
work
with
sponsors
and
co-sponsors
on
that
and
once
again
my
point
is
not
about
the
money:
it's
not
about
the
programs,
it's
not
that
it's
about
Equity
everybody
should
pay
or
nobody
should
pay.
So
that's
where
I
hope
we
get
to
and
once
again
thank
you
for
the
opportunity.
K
A
Right
we're
going
to
change
it
up
and
I
would
try
to
say
your
name,
but
we're
going
to
have
talk
about
the
future
of
AI,
introduce
yourself
for
the
record,
because
I
guarantee
you
I
will
Slaughter
your
name,
sir.
Sorry
about
that.
But
look
forward
to
your
presentation.
Thank
you.
Is
this
turn
the
green
button
on
lights.
G
G
We'll
do
that
so
I'm
Roman
yampolsky
I
have
a
PhD
in
computer
science
and
engineering.
I
am
a
10e
professor
at
one
of
the
major
Commonwealth
universities,
but
I'm
speaking
as
a
as
a
citizen
as
a
Kian.
Let's
see
if
I
can
get
to
that
slide,
so
standard
disclaimer,
my
employer
is
not
responsible
for
all
the
things
I'll
share
with
you
just
trying
to
inform
you
about
state
of
art
in
AI
I'm,
not
a
lobbyist,
I,
don't
think
it's
a
partisan
issue.
I,
don't
have
a
specific
agenda
for
you.
G
I
just
want
to
let
you
know
what
I
think
is
happening
and
I
was
told.
I
have
about
10
minutes
to
tell
you
about
10
years
of
my
research,
so
that
should
be
awesome
well
over
a
decade
ago,
based
on
nothing
but
growth
in
computational
power.
Predictions
were
made
about
how
soon
we'll
have
computers
as
capable
as
one
human
brain,
multiple,
full
human
brains,
all
of
humanity
really
and
interestingly,
the
predictor
of
Dr
Ray
kwell
who's.
G
An
engineer
at
Google
said
that
around
2023
we'll
have
computational
capacity
to
emulate
one
human
brain
idea
being.
If
you
can
emulate
it,
you
can
get
performance
similar
to
what
we
see
from
a
human
brain.
So,
let's
see,
if
that
happened
in
Spring
of
this
year
program
was
released.
I
think
many
of
you
had
a
chance
to
play
with
it
called
GPT
4
by
open
AI,
which
in
many
domains
is.
A
G
Okay,
is
this
better
awesome,
so
gbt
4
is
better
than
many
people
in
many
domains
greater
than
some
in
other
domains.
It's
not
a
general
intelligence,
it's
not
better
than
all
humans
in
all
domains.
G
Yet,
but
but
on
kind
of
standard
tests
and
measures,
things
like
low
exam,
medical
exam,
J,
AP
exams,
it
tends
to
score
very,
very
well
sometimes
99th
percentile
of
those
are
usually
very
smart
individuals
graduate
students
so
well
above
average,
for
humans,
and
this
is
what
we
have
right
now
and
it's
getting
better
and
better
I
took
half
a
day
off
to
come
here.
It's
probably
likely
that
something
new
has
been
developed
and
I'm
completely
out
of
date
and
stateof
theart
in
AI.
So
this
is
where
we
are
today
already.
G
This
is
not
futuristic
projections.
This
is
the
systems
we
have
today
connected
to
internet
capable
of
accessing
all
sorts
of
other
software.
To
assist
you
with
your
work.
So
interesting
question
is,
of
course,
what
happens
next,
if
you
believe
predictions
from
people
running
top
AI
Labs,
whatever
it's
deep-minded,
Google
and
Tropic,
they
are
saying
we
are
likely
to
get
what
is
known
as
artificial
general
intelligence
within
two
to
three
years,
meaning
a
system
as
smart
as
any
of
us
in
all
domains.
It
can
learn
new
skills.
It
can
do
anything.
G
A
human
can
do
so.
Obviously,
amazing
impact
on
economy,
Free,
Labor,
physical
cognitive,
but
in
two
to
three
years.
If
you
don't
believe
leaders
of
the
labs,
they
might
have
some
personal
interest,
we
can
look
at
prediction.
Markets
prediction
markets
are
people,
betting
on
outcomes
of
future
events.
There
we're
looking
at
maybe
4
years,
5
years
until
AGI
I,
don't
think
it
makes
a
huge
difference.
Let's
just
say
this
may
happen
very
soon.
G
This
technology
is
coming
and
I
think
it's
good
to
kind
of
think
about
what
what
that
means.
Also,
this
is
GPT
4.
You
can
look
at
previous
versions
of
the
software
gpt3
gpt2
they
usually
get
exponentially
better.
So
what
do
we
expect
from
GPD?
5
is
exactly
that
artificial
general
intelligence
systems
capable
of
doing
high
level
intellectual
work
in
most
domains.
You
are
a
legislative
body.
You
are
trying
to
control
humans,
which
are,
by
definition,
human
human
level
intelligences
with
laws
and
regulations.
We
don't
have
an
equivalent
for
controlling
AI
systems.
G
In
fact,
we
don't
even
know
if
it's
possible,
whatever
it's
AGI
in
human
level
or
something
called
super
intelligent
systems
which
are
smarter
than
all
humans
in
all
domains,
which
is
very
likely
to
happen
as
with
narrow
domains.
We
already
see
computers
become
super
intelligent
in
chess
and
go
in
many
other
well-defined
domains.
G
If
you
look
at
latest
work
again
at
some
of
those
stop,
Labs
anthropic
calls
it
pessimistic
scenarios
where,
oh
sorry,
they
say
that
we
are
possibly
not
capable
of
controlling
systems
of
such
capability
and
they
are
not
putting
a
specific
number
on
it.
They
saying
well
it's
one
of
the
possibilities.
Maybe
it's
a
hard
problem,
but
we
can
solve
it.
Maybe
it's
an
easy
problem,
but
we'll
get
there,
but
there
is,
let's
say
15%
chance
that
we're
in
this
universe,
where
this
is
impossible
to
happen,
and
they
are
asking
this.
G
What
is
this
probability
for
you?
You
are
intelligent
people.
Do
you
think
it's
possible
possible
to
indefinitely
control
super
intelligent
agents
and
that's,
of
course,
very
important
for
making
sure
they
are
fitting
in
with
our
social
structure,
legal
structure,
economic
structure
and
not
causing
significant
damage,
including
existential
risk?
My
research
over
the
last
couple
years
is
full-time
trying
to
figure
out
this.
This
very
question:
can
we
control
more
advanced
types
of
software,
artificial
intelligence,
the
the
way
I
see
it?
Is
you
need
a
toolbox
of
capabilities
to
do
it?
G
You
need
to
understand
how
they
work.
You
need
to
be
able
to
predict
decisions,
they
would
make
verify
if
software
actually
matches
designs
be
able
to
unambiguously
communicate
with
those
systems
and
many
similar
things,
but
you
get
the
general
gist
and
for
each
one
of
those
tools,
I'm
trying
to
understand,
can
we
have
that
tool?
Is
that
something
we
can
actually
code
up
and
it
seems
there
are
strong
limitations
on
those
capabilities.
G
We
cannot
fully
understand
how
the
systems
work.
We
are
talking
about
millions,
billions
of
connected
nodes
with
weights.
We
may
analyze
a
specific
neuron
and
realize
it
targets
certain
visual
pattern
or
sound
pattern,
but
we
don't
understand
how
they
fully
work.
We
don't
really
have
an
alternative
other
than
looking
at
a
model
as
a
whole,
and
a
model
is
too
complex
to
comprehend.
So
both
explainability
of
those
models
and
comprehensibility
to
a
human
brain
is
limited.
They
are
black
boxes.
Similarly,
we
cannot
predict
what
a
smarter
system
would
do.
G
If
you
could,
you
would
be
that
smart
if
you
could
predict
what
a
chess
opponent
does
for
every
future
move
you're
playing
at
that
level.
So
there
are
limits
to
our
ability
to
predict
precisely
what
a
smarter
agent
would
do.
We
can
figure
out
general
direction,
but
we
cannot
anticipate
specific
moves,
their
limits,
un
very
verifying
code,
verifying
mathematical
proofs.
Basically,
all
software
has
bugs
you
can
invest
a
lot
of
resources
to
reduce
amount
of
those
bugs,
but
you
can
never
fully
get
rid
of
them.
Probabilistically.
G
There
is
still
always
a
chance
that
the
system
is
making
a
mistake,
and
if
a
system
is
making
billions
of
decisions,
every
minute
you
basically
guaranteed
to
have
accidents
and
problems.
Communication
is
also
a
problem.
Human
language
is
notoriously
ambiguous.
When
you
write
laws,
clever
lawyers
usually
find
some
sort
of
a
way
to
avoid
following
the
law
as
intended
here
we're
talking
about
a
super
intelligent
lawyer
who
would
find
any
imprecise,
ambiguous
language
in
the
orders
and
ethical
and
moral
guidelines
for
their
systems.
G
So,
overall,
the
conclusion
I'm
coming
to
is
that
it's
impossible
to
indefinitely
control
super
intelligent
systems.
They
will
always
find
a
way
to
bypass,
as
are
best
safety
mechanisms,
either
through
directly
hacking
software
through
manipulating
their
human
handlers
through
blackmail
through
bribery
or
simply
by
being
smarter
than
us
and
doing
things.
We
cannot
predict
because
they
are
unpredictable.
So
there
is
this
trade-off
between
capability
and
control.
We
have
very
good
narrow
systems
systems
which
allow
us
to
do
things
like
solve
protein
folding
problem,
for
example
a
major
medical
breakthrough,
but
which
are
not
General.
G
They
are
not
AGI,
they
are
not
super
intelligence,
and
so
we
can
get
the
benefits
of
this
technology
without
the
risk
of
having
systems
we
cannot.
Control
I
gave
you
a
quick
summary
of
some
of
the
more
interesting
limiting
results,
but
there
are
many
in
fact.
Recently
we
published
a
paper
with
some
50
impossibility
results
in
this
space.
G
I,
don't
anticipate
you
to
read
this:
it's
not
a
fun
read,
but
the
point
is
that
there
is
a
lot
we
don't
know
and
a
lot
which
is
likely
simply
impossible
to
ever
overcome
in
terms
of
limits
to
control
on
this
technology.
I'm,
not
the
only
one,
as
I
said,
we
were
successful
at
publishing
some
of
this
ideas
in
major
journals
books,
but
also
in
places
like
Time
Magazine.
The
idea
that
super
intelligent
systems
may
be
uncontrollable.
G
Others
agree
from
founding
father
of
computer
science
and
AI
Alan
touring
to
more
recent
researchers
and
Developers
such
as
Elon
Musk.
There
is
a
growing
concern
and
a
growing
consensus
that
super
intelligence
may
be
uncontrollable.
This
is
the
10
slides
ahead.
Hopefully,
I
made
the
10-minute
Mark
and
I'm
very
happy
to
answer
any
questions
you
might
have
about
this.
Thank
you.
A
Thank
you
for
your
testimony,
sir.
Actually,
this
came
about
I
want
to
give
kudos
to
representative
grossberg.
He
we
had
a
group
come
on,
tell
us
how
great
it
was
and
what
a
great
thing
it
was
was,
but
I
think
it's
important
to
hear
both
sides,
and
we
do
have
some
questions.
Believe,
It
or
Not,
which
I
thought
it
would
probably
generate
some
conversation.
First
off
to
bat.
We
have
Senator.
A
M
Thank
you,
Mr
yampolsky.
First
of
all,
let
me
say
I'm
glad
that
representative
Pratt
or
chairman
Pratt
asked
you
to
come
here
today
because,
as
I've
said
to
many
of
my
members,
my
caucus
in
particular
I
think
this
is
the
most
important
issue
that
lawmakers
across
the
country
must
address
and
deal
with
in
2024,
okay
and
I
know
Congress
had
a
similar
committee
meeting
about
two
weeks
ago.
The
problem
with
that
committee
meeting
was.
F
M
Had
all
big
Tech
representatives
there
Facebook
Twitter
Amazon,
obviously
those
that
had
a
financial
interest
in
in
in
seeing
AI
developed
and
expanded
and
I'm
always
reminded
that,
as
elected
officials
in
government,
there
only
three
three
responsibilities:
we
have
only
three
and
that
first
one
is
to
maintain
the
Safety
and
Security
of
our
citizens.
M
That's
our
number
one
task,
okay
and
so
I'm
glad
that
we
have
someone
who
who's
not
doesn't
have
a
financial
interest
coming
to
talk
to
us
today
about
our
AI
I
want
to
emphasize
that
I
I'm
highly
concerned
when
you
say
that
this
is
a
this.
This
is
a
an
entity,
a
process
that
can't
be
controlled,
because
the
last
thing
I
I
want
to
have
on
my
legacy.
Is
that
we're
creating
a
Frankenstein
here?
That's
that's
going
to
destroy
our
society.
I
I!
Don't
think
we
can
let
that
happen
and
you're
right.
M
That
is
not
Parson
all
at
all,
so
I'm
I'm
looking
for
ways
in
which,
obviously
we
can
use
AI
for
its
good,
but
we
don't
want
to
have
it
created
so
that
that
some
monster
can
come
along
and
create
a
process
or
a
software
or
system.
That's
going
to
destroy
us.
So
can
you
address
that
question
because
I
think
that's
really
The
$64,000
Question
here
that
we
lawmakers
across
this
country
have
to
address
going
into.
G
So,
as
I
said,
I
don't
want
to
suggest
specific
legislation
in
any
way,
but
it
seems
that
there
is
a
lot
of
untapped
economic
potential
in
existing
technology.
A
system
like
GPT
4
can
be
studied
and
deployed
for
the
next
50
years.
Growing
our
economy
exponentially.
We
don't
have
to
create
super
intelligence
for
next
2
years
5
years.
There
is
not
a
pressing
need
for
that.
It's
often
speculated
that
we
have
to
do
it
or
the
bad
guys
get
there
first
and
then
it's
worse.
G
If
it's
uncontrolled,
it
doesn't
matter
who
has
super
intelligence
first,
whatever
it's
Kentucky
us
China,
it's
the
same
result
right,
you're,
not
controlling
it.
It's
an
independent
agent!
So
it's
good.
If
there
is
self-interest
from
those
companies
to
not
destroy
the
world
and
themselves
included
if
they
are
encouraged
by
the
government
to
limit
capabilities,
there
was
a
call
for
pause.
Six
Monon
pause
in
develop
development
of
more
capable
systems
than
gp4,
but
it
was
based
on
six
months
why
it's
an
arbitrary
number
means
nothing.
G
You
have
to
request
same
type
of
moratorium
based
on
capabilities.
Until
you
can
show
that
your
system
is
not
a
black
box,
we
can
understand
how
it
works.
We
can
predict
what
it
does.
All
the
impossibility
results
I
mentioned
are
addressed
and
solved.
Then
you
can
go
ahead
and
deploy
a
more
capable
system,
because
now
we
have
some
assurance
that
it
meets
Safety
and
Security
standards.
You
can
set.
N
Baker,
thank
you,
sir,
and
thank
you
for
being
here
to
to
share
this
with
us
today.
Ai
is
a
great
tool,
but
it
can
also
be
a
very
evil
thing,
and
you
know
that
far
better
than
I
do.
One
of
my
concerns
is
the
idea
that
you
could
use
that
to
make
an
image
a
likeness
or
replicate
a
voice
of
a
living
person.
N
Do
I,
I
I,
see
some
issues
with
that
going
forward
and
how
that
could
be
used
in
in
various
ways.
Are
there
other
issues-
and
this
may
be
very
similar
to
to
Senator
Thomas's
question
other
issues
that
you
perhaps
foresee
that
could
create
problems
for
us
down
the
road
with
AI.
G
Many
I
don't
want
to
give
any
ideas,
but
luckily
I'm
not
super
intelligent.
So
what
you're
asking
is
what
I
would
do
to
cause
problems?
I'm,
not
super
intelligent.
The
system
would
come
up
with
much
better
things.
Deep
fakes
are
a
big
problem.
The
way
this
technology
works.
You
have
two
neural
networks
competing
one
generating
fakes,
one
trying
to
detect
them.
They
meet
in
the
middle,
it's
a
50/50,
so
you
can't
figure
out
if
it's
real
or
not.
This
technology
can
be
used
for
spear
fishing
attacks
at
unprecedented
scale.
G
Instead
of
tailoring
a
single
email
for
one
individual.
By
studying
their
social
media,
I
can
now
Target
millions
of
accounts.
I
can
create
a
video
of
someone.
You
trust
your
chairman,
your
spouse,
telling
you
hey,
send
some
money.
Give
me
a
password.
Even
experts
would
click
on
such
a
link
agree
to
such
a
request.
But
this
is
not
the
worst.
You
have
systems
which
are
doing
science
now
doing
research,
for
example
in
chemistry
or
biology.
So
we're
talking
about
Co
2.0.
You
can
design
new
viruses.
You
can
design
chemical
weapons.
G
You
can
design
all
sorts
of
tools
for
hacking,
import.
Cyber
infrastructure,
power
plants,
nuclear
response,
military
response:
there
is
really
with
General
system
smart
of
than
humans.
You
are
not
limited
by
any
set
of
restrictions
other
than
how
creative
the
system
is,
how
much
it
can
exploit
human
psyche.
A
N
Sir,
so
obviously
that's
very
concerning
thank
you,
the
it's
one,
one
thing
to
try
to
create
laws
and
and
put
safeguards
in
place
to
keep
me
or
you
or
someone
else
from
doing
that:
I
don't
have
the
the
knowledge
or
capacity
to
do
it
myself,
but
when
you're
talking
about
being
uncontrollable,
if
we
could
put
laws
in
place
to
keep
me
from
doing
it
or
to
punish
me
from
doing
things
wrongfully
at
some
point,
are
you
saying
that,
regardless
of
what
I
do
over
time,
it
can
just
generate
some
of
those
things
themselves
within
the
system.
G
The
cost
of
training
the
next
model
becomes
less
and
less
with
time.
Hardware
becomes
more
capable.
Today
it
may
cost
a100
million
tomorrow
it's
10
million
1
million,
eventually
any
teenager
in
a
garage
and
their
laptop
can
generate
human
level
equivalent
model.
It's
like
personal
nuclear
weapons.
There
is
not
much
you
can
do
with
legislation.
The
joke,
I
kind
of
make
is
we're
going
to
make
it
illegal
to
destroy
humanity,
and
there
are
steep
fines
for
doing
that.
G
Like
you
can't
enforce
something
like
that
and
to
enforce
meaningfully
enforce
any
legislation,
you
should
be
able
to
monitor
deployment
and
training
of
those
systems,
and
there
are
impossibility
results
related
to
that.
Until
we
train
the
model,
we
don't
really
know
what
it's
capable
of.
So
if
they
are
training,
GPT
5
right
now,
I'm
not
saying
they
are,
but
something
like
that
until
it
is
trained
and
studied,
we
don't
even
know
if
it's
already
Beyond
human
capacity
or
not.
We
still
discover
things
about
gp4
till
this
day.
People
go.
G
Oh,
it
can
play
this
new
musical
instrument
or
something
it
is
a
underst
studied
area
and
I.
I
think
a
lot
of
times
with
legislation
we
we
pass
Feelgood
legislation.
Spam
is
illegal
computer
viruses
illegal,
but
at
the
end
they
get
both.
So
as
long
as
it
takes,
you
know
a
billion
dollar
worth
of
compute
a
major
Manhattan
Project
size
effort.
You
can
regulate
it.
You
know
where
the
centers
are.
You
know
who
has
the
chips
if
it
becomes
more
affordable,
it's
unlikely
to
succeed
through
governance.
F
Thank
you
Mr
chairman,
and
thank
you
for
indulging
Me
by
bringing
this
guest
today.
I
wasn't
sure
how
it
would
work
out,
but
I'm
glad
to
say
I,
I,
I,
think
it's
working
out
well
and
I
would
like
to
thank
you
for
joining
us
today.
F
F
You
are
investing
in
their
Ed
smallish,
investing
in
their
education
and
still
investing
in
your
own
retirement
and
I
asked
you
about
that,
and
you
told
me
it's
because
you're,
not
certain
so
I
think
it's
important
for
everyone
to
know
that
even
the
most
catastrophic
predictions
still
allow
for
a
future.
That's
worth
living.
One
time,
I
asked
you
to
put
in
context
like
how
how
big
of
a
deal
is
this?
F
Is
this
like
the
discovery
of
electricity,
or
is
this
like
the
first
automations
and
you
told
me,
I've,
got
to
think
bigger
that
the
last
time
humanity
has
embarked
on
something
this
revolutionary
and
this
much
of
a
GameChanger.
It
would
either
be
the
discovery
of
fire
or
the
discovery
of
language,
so
just
to
put
it
in
context
for
everyone.
That's
how
big!
What
we're
looking
at
is
but
I'm
glad
to
hear
from
my
colleagues
here
that
everyone
SE
this
as
either
a
bipartisan
or
a
nonpartisan
issue.
It's
not
an
US
versus
them.
F
It's
all
of
us
together
to
make
sure
that
the
professor
is
not
wasting
his
time
and
energy,
educating
his
kids
and
investing
in
his
own
retirement,
the
biggest
part
of
that
when
I
asked
you.
Why
is
this
so
much
bigger
to
you
than
chemical,
biological
or
nuclear
weapons
proliferation
and
all
the
concerns
that
existed
over
the
last
60
70
years?
F
Is
the
first
time
that
there
will
be
an
agent
that
can
be
self-acting
that
to
use
the
metaphor
of
Dr
Frankenstein
once
released
may
not
be
able
to
be
controlled,
and
on
top
of
that,
we
myself
included,
have
a
tendency
to
use
the
word
evil
that
I
don't
want
to
Rel
and
evil
technology,
and
you
reminded
me
that
technology
is
neither
moral
nor
immoral.
It's
amoral.
So
what
we
can't
do
is
regulate
the
technology.
F
We
can
regulate
what
people
can
do
towards
researching
or
deploying
that
technology,
and
with
that
one
of
the
Articles
you
had
me
read
was
I
believe
it
was
six
different
scenarios
worst
case
scenarios
that
that
you
perceive
as
being
likely
to
happen.
If,
if
we
don't
do
anything
and
I
encourage
the
rest
of
you
to
read
it,
and
let's
just
say
that
the
Matrix
looks
not
bad
in
comparison
to
to
some
of
these,
and
when
I
asked
you,
how
do
we
get
there?
You
gave
me
a
couple,
simple
examples.
F
You
know
if
someone
who
wants
to
be
a
lone
wolf
terrorist,
gets
their
hand
on
this
technology
and
says
destroy
the
financial
systems,
this
actor,
the
not
the
the
person,
but
the
software
is
smarter
than
every
single
person
working
in
every
financial
institution
and
every
computer
programmer
combined
and
has
a
head
start
start
and
could
probably
achieve
it.
If
someone
intended
something
good
and
didn't
have
the
proper
protocols
you
gave
me,
the
example
of
coid
comes
back
stronger
or
a
new
super
buug,
and
someone
tells
AI
solve
it
so
that
no
one
more
gets
coid.
F
Well,
the
easiest
way
to
make
sure
no
one
more
gets
Co
would
be
to
kill
all
humans
and,
if
you
don't
put
in
the
proper
parameters
in
the
programming
that
will
happen-
and
then
you
gave
gave
me
another
example
that
if
you
told
it,
we
want
to
explore
further
in
the
universe
and
need
bigger,
satellites
and
bigger
telescopes
that
without
the
proper
parameters
the
AI
would
say.
Well,
these
humans
have
precious
metals
in
their
bloodstreams
and
in
their
cells.
F
Let's
just
digest
the
entire
Earth,
including
all
humans,
and
convert
everything
on
Terra
major
to
a
massive
satellite
system.
So
those
are
just
a
few
of
what
sound
like
outlandish
examples.
But,
as
you
pointed
out,
we
don't
know
what
super
intelligence
can
and
will
do,
because
we
are
not
super
intelligent.
So
the
thing
that
you
said
you're
not
going
to
do
but
I'm
going
to
put
you
on
the
spot,
is
you
said,
you're,
not
a
policy
maker?
F
Well,
we
are
and
and
you
identifying
for
us,
these
problems
has
been
extremely
valuable,
but
the
question
I
have
for
you
is
if,
in
that
magical
world,
where
you
didn't
make
fun
of
me
for
being
a
policy
maker
on
a
regular
basis,
and
you
were
one
of
us.
What
is
it
precisely
that
you
would
do
what
as
a
parent
of
three,
mostly
small
children?
Is
it
that
you're
asking
of
us
besides
just
generally
study
Ai
and
its
dangers.
G
Wonderful
question
I
feel
like
I,
should
have
put
more
disclaimers
about
hazardous
information
into
my
presentation
with
you
listing
all
of
them.
I
as
I
said,
I
bring
problems,
I
don't
have
Solutions.
If
you
can
create
an
incentive
structure
where
it
is
better
for
those
companies
and
leaders
to
monetize
their
existing
tag,
as
opposed
to
trying
to
win
that
arms
race
to
be
there
first
right
now,
I
think
Google,
Deep
Mind
is
releasing
a
product.
Maybe
in
December
Gemini
there
is
a
response
from
open
AI.
G
So
if
before
we
said,
oh
it's
going
to
be
two
years.
It's
too
soon
now
we're
saying:
let's
release
it
tomorrow,
we
don't
have
time
to
test
it
or
they
going
to
beat
us.
If
there
is
anything
you
can
do
to
make
incentives,
work
and
whoever
does
it
slowest
and
safest
wins,
then
we
all
possibly
might
win,
but
I
am
not
optimistic
that
you
can
beat
industry
in
terms
of
timelines
and.
G
Deployment
to
to
say
something
very
nice
and
positive,
so
representative
grosberg
is
my
biggest
success
story.
Nobody
ever
changes
their
mind
on
anything
than
presented
with
new
information
evidence.
He
went
from
making
fun
of
me
and
my
silly
Terminator
scenarios
to
actually
taking
it
seriously.
So
I
would
upload
that.
Thank.
O
O
Then,
to
present
your
entire
body
of
knowledge
and
research,
I
want
to
briefly
just
maybe
maybe
clarify
I
think
for
our
some
of
our
committee
members
and
for
myself
we
tend
to
talk
about
AI
as
if
it's
some
distinct
and
discret
entity
that
exists
over
here,
that
we
can
do
things
to
or
control
or
not
control,
or
that
is
itself
going
to
do
something
on
its
own,
like
it's
separate
and
apart,
as
opposed
to
a
model
that
we
are
currently
training
right
in
terms
of
its
intelligence
and
its
ability
to
think
so.
O
I
wanted
to
clarify
also
that
there
there
is
some
scope.
There
are
various
scenarios.
As
you
say,
one
of
the
comments
I
made
was
that
all
of
this
so
open
AI
all
of
the
generative
image
generating
software.
All
of
the
things
that
we
are
able
to
input
our
questions
and
our
concerns-
and
you
know
just
trying
it
out
chat
GPT-
are-
are
taking
all
of
that
information
and
training.
These
models
right
and
they're
all
owned
by
private
companies,
which
is
to
your
point.
O
The
only
way
we
can
control
the
the
speed
at
which
this
accelerates
this
model
adapts
and
learns.
So
in
terms
of
laws,
we've
got
laws
for
intellectual
property
to
representative
Baker's
Point,
protecting
identities
protect
protecting
likenesses,
but
if
it
gets
to
a
certain
point,
laws
won't
matter
anymore
is
what
you're
saying
to
us.
So
at
this
point,
hopefully
before
we've
gotten
there
before
that
tipping
point,
I
wanted
to
to
ask
you
is,
is,
for
instance,
open
AI
is
one
of
the
things
on
your
slides
is
the
way
to
control
this?
O
You
mentioned
incentivizing
private
companies
to
slow
down.
Do
it
safely?
Do
it
in
a
more
sustainable
way,
so
that
we
don't
destroy
ourselves?
Is
that
possible
to
do
even
now?
So
what
with
the
models
and
the
platforms
that
they
have
developed?
Is
it
too
late
to
slow
that
down?
Do
they
have
enough
input
right
now
to
just
proceed
on
their
own?
Is
that
the
question
that.
G
Is
unanswered
they
likely
do,
but
we
have
no
chance
other
than
to
try.
We
have
no
Alternatives.
You
correctly
said
that
what
we
deal
with
right
now
is
mostly
tools.
We
train
those
models.
We
can
shut
them
off,
but
the
switch
to
that
agent
Hood,
where
they
are
independent,
is
what
they
are
talking
about
in
the
next
2
to
4
years.
So
that's
not
a
lot
of
time
and
we
have
to
get
it
right
on
a
first.
Try
we're
not
going
to
get
a
second
chance.
Third
chance
a
lot
of
times
in
cyber
security.
G
O
Right,
quick,
followup,
Mr,
chair
I,
also
on
that
same
slide,
so
I'm
I'm,
an
attorney
I,
took
the
elsat
and
I
took
it
because
I'm
terrible
at
math
and
the
elsat
was
more
about
logic.
So
I've
noticed
that
it
is
scoring,
for
instance,
in
this
exam
slide
that
you
have
in
the
88th
percentile
for
lsats.
It
didn't
do
so
well
in
English
language
and
composition.
Does
that
mean
anything?
G
It
is
still
not
a
general
intelligence.
We
are
still
much
better
in
many
many
ways.
We
are
still
in
charge
today,
I
think
with
specific
exams.
On
that
slide,
some
are
more.
How
can
I
say
it?
They
have
actual
answers
as
opposed
to
opinions
and
how
a
poem
feels
so
it's
easier
to
grade
accurately,
whereas
humans
May
have
a
bias
towards
human
generated,
outputs
of
certain
kind.
G
P
Q
Q
Thank
you
so
much
for
your
presentation,
so
here
is
what
this
is
a
little
bit
of
a
comment,
a
little
bit
of
a
question
so
just
want
to
give
you
the
heads
up,
let's
work
through
this
together.
Here's
what
I'm
concerned
about
is
I
know
that
there
was
an
article
I
think
put
out
by
Forbes.
That
indicated
something
about
300
million
jobs
that
were
going
to
be
lost
or
degraded
just
within
the
United
States
and
Europe.
Because
of
AI
and
what
I?
What
I
wonder
about?
Is
you
know
what
what
that?
Q
What
what
kind
of
time
frame
do
we,
let's
just
focus
here
in
Kentucky
and
the
state
that
we're
focused
in
what
do
we
have
to
look
forward
to
from
a
time
frame
perspective
and
coupled
with
that
something
that
I
think
is
important
for
this
body?
To
think
about?
Q
Is
that
we
often
and
other
states
do
the
same
thing
we
like
to
invite
companies
to
come
in
and
set
up
shop
here
and
not
tax
them
properly
and
give
them
all
sorts
of
you
know
breaks
with
the
you
know,
tradeoff
and
expectation
that
there
will
be
jobs
created
for
our
people
kentuckians
here,
and
what
I
worry
about
is
the
fact
that
folks
will
come
in
and
you
know
only
to
lose.
You
know
for
kentuckians
to
lose
their
jobs
shortly.
Q
G
So
it
used
to
be.
There
was
two
concerns,
short-term
concerns
and
long-term
concerns.
Shortterm
was
things
like
technological
unemployment.
Will
we
lose
jobs
and
you
know
existential
risk
suffering
risk
was
20
years
away.
We
don't
have
to
worry
about
it,
but
looking
at
predictions
for
capabilities
it
actually
may
have
switched
where
we'll
have
systems
capable
of
generating
dangerous
chemical
weapons
in
2
years,
but
it
takes
5
10
years
to
deploy
existing
technology
to
actually
replace
workers.
Today
we
have
ai
capable
of
replacing
anyone
in
Food
Service.
G
Essentially,
it's
not
Beyond
capabilities,
both
in
terms
of
taking
orders
and
actually
cooking
food.
That
is
automation,
human,
like
robots,
capable
of
doing
that,
but
it
takes
time
to
deploy
to
train,
to
really
make
it
happen.
So
it's
interesting
that
maybe
what
was
long-term
concerns
are
actually
overtaking.
Those
shortterm
considerations,
if
you
get
human
level
intelligence
AG,
then
all
cognitive
labor
is
automatable
no
exception.
If
we
deploy
robots
like
what
Boston
Dynamics
so
now,
Tesla
is
creating
humanoid
robots
same
goes
for
physical
labor.
G
You
can
automate
all
jobs
if
we
take
it
to
extreme
for
super
intelligence.
We
have
nothing
to
contribute
to
a
super
intelligence.
You're,
not
smarter,
you're,
not
funnier,
you're,
not
a
better
poet.
What
happens
at
that
stage?
There
are
risks
to
our
existence,
existential
risks,
and
then
there
are
risks
to
what
we
call
igy
risks
a
word
for
meaning
it
will
take
the
meaning
away
from
us
purpose.
Why
do
we
even
exist?
You're,
not
contributing
anything
you're,
not
a
legislator.
You're,
not
a
lawyer
you're,
not
a.
G
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chair
and
thank
you.
Dr
Yosi
I
tell
you
what
I
wish
I
so
admire.
You
I
wish
I
had
just
a
thousandth
of
the
understanding
and
knowledge
that
you
have
about
stuff
like
this
and
the
way
you
speak
so
intelligent
about
the
matter
is
very,
very
humbling
for
me,
but
just
a
piggyback
off
of
what
representative
baker
has
said
about
protecting
image
and
likeness.
That
is
so
concerning
because
you
can
take
Ai
and
I'll.
Show
you
a
little
example,
and
it's
worth
mentioning
and
you
could
take
a
politician.
H
H
So
when
you
think
about
these
things,
that
can
be
very
intimidating
going
going
forward,
and
it's
just
like
with
the
Firestorm
that's
going
on
in
Washington
DC
with
Senator
fedman
him
coming
to
dressed
a
certain
way
and
it's
just
a
firestorm
going
on
well,
a
major
entity
on
Twitter
had
put
out
this.
H
This
picture
of
ran
Paul,
coming
and
sitting
on
the
Senate
steps
and
sitting
there
in
his
robe
and
just
looked
in
all
casual,
it's
kind
of
funny
to
look
at,
but
it
looked
like
it
was
a
little
out
character.
So
we
reached
out
to
senator
Paul's
office
and
they
said
no
that
was
created
by
AI
cuz.
We
want
to
know.
Is
that
really
him
ain't
this
funny?
But
that
can
be
so
potentially
dangerous.
I
mean
honestly,
you
could
create
a
V
video
of
someone
with
AI
make
them
a
pedophile.
H
If
you
want
to
I
just
were
trying
to
throw
some
things
out
there
that
you
could
look
at
and
and
just
say
what
can
we
do
now
before
this
gets
out
of
control
before
it
snowballs
to
the
to
the
place
that
it
can
be,
and
so
that
is
my
concern
concern
we
need
to
protect
our
people,
I
mean
if
somebody's
got
an
Al
against
somebody.
It
would
be
easy
if
you're
technologically
advanced,
to
create
something
to
make
someone
look
so
bad.
H
So
I
just
wanted
to
share
that
with
the
committee,
and
hopefully
you
know
it's
something
that
we
could
talk
about
going
forward
and
your
input
to
helping
us
get
some
legislation
that
would
that
would
be
so
valuable.
Thank
you.
So
much.
G
Great
question,
thank
you.
So
there
is
technology
which
helps
you
can
do
cryptographic
proofs
of
origin,
so
a
camera
while
it's
taking
pictures
or
video
can
sign
the
feed,
and
you
know
it's
authenticated.
The
problem
is
not
just
technology.
It's
the
humans.
There
is
a
nonzero
percentage
of
population.
Who
is
sure
the
planet
is
flat.
No
amount
of
pictures
of
videos
will
change
that
and
with
deep
fakes.
The
only
positive
thing
I
can
say
is
it
gives
you
certain
degree
of
plausible
deniability
when
they
catch
you
in
a
real
bad.
L
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I
actually
do
not
have
a
question
I,
just
very
much
appreciative
of
the
robust
discussion.
Thank
you,
sir.
E
If
you
don't
think
our
country's
at
war
with
lots
of
things
going
on
every
day,
we
probably
wouldn't
want
to
know,
what's
going
on
behind
the
scenes,
to
keep
us
safe
every
day,
so
the
only
way
to
win
war
is
to
go
in
as
aggressive
as
you
can.
So
it
sounds
like
to
me
that
we've
just
got
to
go
at
this
as
aggressive
as
we
can
and
make
sure
that
the
Bad
actors
don't
outdo
the
good
actors.
Is
that
and
I
understand
that
the
intelligent
part
of
that?
E
Is
you
don't
once
you
release
something,
it's
kind
of
like
what
you
said
a
while
ago,
when
you
ask
a
genie
for
a
wish,
you
better
watch
what
you
ask
for,
because
sometimes,
if
you
look
at
that,
you
don't
know
what
that
means.
You
have
to
explore
all
the
ask
before
you
do
the
asking,
so
it
just
sounds
like
we
have
to
be
as
aggressive
as
we
can
to
make
sure
we
keep
this
at
Bay.
Is
that.
G
So
if
we
talking
about
tools,
obviously
Whoever
has
better
tools
will
win
an
award.
We
seeing
it
in
Ukrainian
conflict
with
better
drones,
better
communication,
satellites
and
so
on.
But
the
moment
we
switch
to
an
agent
a
super
intelligent
agent.
It
doesn't
matter
who
summoned
the
demons
if
China
invites
aliens
or
Russians
invite
aliens
or
we
invite
them,
it's
the
same
aliens
who
going
to
come
and
what
they
do
is
be
under
control.
G
R
Thank
you
for
being
here
today,
so
much
of
our
lives
are
inter,
are
coupled
together,
interrelated,
fully
integrated
using
the
internet
and
other
means.
Is
there
any
discussion
being
had
in
this
Arena,
where
we
may
have
to
decouple
and
separate
certain
parts
of
of
of
what
we
do
and
how
we
operate
like
separating
the
financial
system?
R
I,
don't
like
build
a
firewall
is
the
only
way
that
I
that
I
can
understand
how
to
there's
any
discussion
about
how
to
separate
certain
things
that
we
do
so
to
to
to
isolate
things
from
from
some
of
the
harmful,
potentially
harmful
effects
of
of
AI.
G
G
So
there
is
some
work
on
privacy
making
sure
the
systems
are
not
training
on
something
they
should
not
be
training
on.
There
is
also
a
research
Tak
taking
place
on
Direct
human
brain
computer
interfaces.
Basically,
a
computer
would
be
able
to
see
what
you
are
thinking
directly,
so
that
has
obvious
implications
for
First
Amendment
for
privacy
laws,
and
there
is
some
proposed
legislation
for
protecting
privacy
of
thought,
not
just
speech
but
thinking
freedom,
but
nothing
particularly
with
separating
one
Department
within
the
government
from
AI
infrastructure
comes
to
mind
right
now,.
R
A
Thank
you
again
for
your
testimony.
I
think
we
got
all
question
asked
you
know
again,
thank
you
for
Testimony
I
know
you
got
a
busy
time
and
actually
again,
like
said,
we
had
the
other
side
come
and
talk
to
us
and
thanks
to
rep
rep
grossberg
that
you
know
he
brought
you
up
and
one
thing
that
did
strike
me
really
interesting
about
our
first
presenters.
A
Was
they
kept
talking
about
human
bias
in
AI,
which
vales
my
antennas
and
then
shortly
after
that,
I
did
see
an
article
which
says
what
happens
when
hackers
talk
AI
into
doing
bad
things,
and
it's
happening
so
again.
It's
a
it.
We're
trying
to
get
arms
head,
wrap
our
arms
around
this.
Our
heads
around
this
and
I
do
believe
this
is
a
nonpartisan
bipartisan
issue.
I,
look
forward
to
working
with
people
on
my
committee
to
figure
out
what
we
need
to
do,
how
we
need
to
do
this
I.
A
A
Thank
you,
sir
all
right.
Well
we're
going
to
end
up
on
a
much
lighter
note
here
at
the
end,
we're
and
thank
you
for
being
patient
kenergy
energy
project
update.
Would
you
please
approach
the
table,
introduce
yourself
for
the
record
and
please.
P
T
P
Lindall
well,
first
I
want
to
thank
you,
chairman
Pratt,
for
giving
us
the
opportunity
to
provide
this
update
today.
I'm
Charlotte
Wells,
director
of
legislative
affairs
and
government
relations
for
big
Rivers,
Electric
Corporation,
big
Rivers,
is
an
Electric
Cooperative
generation
and
transmission
utility,
headquartered
in
Owensboro
Kentucky
and
serving
22
counties
in
West
Kentucky
in
September
of
2020
I,
along
with
members
of
our
or
representatives
of
Our
member
owner
kenergy
Corp,
sat
before
you
to
discuss
what
was,
at
the
time,
a
great
need
for
Kentucky
citizens.
P
At
the
time,
nrea
had
conducted
a
business
and
technology
technology
report
that
ranked
Kentucky
as
the
eighth
worst
state
in
the
nation
for
Broadband
availability.
So
as
Electric
cooperatives
in
other
states
were
stepping
up
to
lead
the
charge
in
rural
connectivity,
Kentucky
law
yet
had
to
catch
up
in
the
terms
of
the
digital
divide.
P
Thanks
to
the
leadership
of
Representative
Pratt,
this
body
took
its
first
step
toward
closing
that
Gap
by
establishing
the
Broadband
deployment
fund
during
the
2020
General
Session
the
next
year.
Thanks
to
representative
Reed,
who
I
don't
see
anymore,
we
took
another
significant
step
by
not
only
funding
the
program,
but
also
allowing
regulated
Electric
cooperatives
in
Kentucky
to
make
Capital
investments
in
Affiliates
for
the
purpose
of
broadband
deployment.
P
Additional
funding
was
appropriated
again
in
2022
and
a
pole,
replacement
fund
was
established
and
for
all
of
this
I
just
want
to
say
thank
you.
Since
passage
of
House
Bill
320
in
2021,
kenergy
has
embarked
on
a
Broadband
deployment
project
that
will
literally
bring
service
to
thousands
of
unserved
and
underserved
Kian
with
me
today
is
Tim
lindall
who
joined
kenergy
as
CEO
in
March
of
this
year,
Tim
has
more
than
28
years
of
experience
in
the
agricultural
information
technology
and
energy
Industries.
P
He
has
worked
for
Rural
Electric
cooperatives
for
more
than
for
15
years,
and
also
LED
technology
groups
in
Colorado,
assisted
Nebraska,
in
establishing
its
State
Office
of
broadband
and
managed
a
Cooperative
who
deployed
Broadband
to
rural
parts
of
Kansas.
So
now
I'm
going
to
turn
it
over
to
Tim
I'm.
Going
to
let
him
give
you
an
update
on
how
kenner's
project
is.
T
Progressing.
Thank
you.
Mr,
chair
good
afternoon
members
of
the
committee
again
I'm
Tim
lindall,
president
CEO
of
kenergy
we're
a
member
owned,
not
not
for-profit,
Cooperative,
headquartered
in
Henderson
Kentucky.
T
We
provide
energy
and
other
services
that
it
really
improved
the
lives
of
the
communities
we
serve
and
those
that
live
and
work
in
nearly
the
60,000
homes
and
businesses
and
other
services
in
14
counties
of
this
great
Commonwealth,
I'm
thrilled
to
be
here
along
with
Charla
and
Melissa,
one
of
our
U
member
owners,
who
you'll
hear
from
in
the
second
to
share
the
story
of
broadband
expansion
with
you
to
thank
you
for
enabling
the
folks
of
Kentucky
to
finally
have
access
to
this
critical
service
and
for
allowing
us
to
have
additional
infrastructure
to
enhance
our
electric
grid
for
providing
providing
greater
Economic,
Opportunity,
Health
social
connection
and
the
many
other
great
things
Broadband
can
do
for
our
communities.
T
I
want
to
take
a
quick
step
back
to
the
1930s,
where
our
country
saw
a
technology
called
electricity
that
was
really
improving
the
lives
of
those
that
mainly
lived
in
the
urban
areas
of
the
time.
This
game-changing
produ
product
greatly
enhanced
the
economic
well-being
of
the
communities
that
had
the
infrastructure
to
utilize.
T
This
highly
successful
act
has,
over
time,
allowed
electricity
to
reach
every
person
who
wants
it
at
a
price.
It's
highly
competitive
with
or
even
less
than,
the
significantly
Pro
po
profitable
populated
areas
of
the
country.
Kenergy
is
a
member-owned
and
not
for-profit,
Cooperative
that
it
exists
today.
As
a
result
of
these
people
coming
together
in
the
communities
of
Western,
Kentucky,
leaning
on
the
foundation,
parts
of
the
rural
electrification,
Act
and
the
accompanying
rural
electrification
Administration.
In
fact,
one
of
the
Farms
we
serve
was
the
first
Farm
in
Kentucky
to
receive
energy
under
this
Arrangement.
T
Some
50
years
after
the
Rea
was
established.
A
new
technology
began
to
emerge
in
cities
of
America.
This
started
to
further
improve
the
lives
and
communities
by
connecting
people
in
a
new
way.
The
internet,
from
its
fledging
start
quickly
gained
Traction
in
the
90s
and,
as
we
closed
the
century
had
evolved
into
the
broad
band
we
desire
and
need
today
this
enabling
technology
quickly
outpaced
the
ability
to
have
adequate
service
outside
of
the
profitable
urban
areas.
Each
expansion
further
eroded
the
business
case
for
those
that
were
left
behind
for
the
last
30
years.
T
It
has
been
my
mission
and
my
passion
to
find
ways
to
bring
these
critical
services
to
the
underserved
areas
of
this
great
country
and
after
30
years,
it's
happening
because
of
your
work.
The
leaders
of
our
communities
have
again
come
together
and
identified
the
way
to
finally
solve
this
issue
in
non-profitable
areas
which
is
to
do
just
like
was
done
in
the
1930s
to
have
the
community
own
the
infrastructure
to
provide
this
critical
service.
T
Like
the
rule,
electrification,
Act
of
1936,
the
enabling
legislation
that
you
passed
via
HB
320
made
it
possible
for
electric
cooperatives
to
install
the
infrastructure
at
the
request
of
our
members
infrastructure
that
is
owned
by
our
members,
which
make
up
the
local
communities.
We
serve.
I'm
elated,
along
with
the
many
folks
in
our
communities
that
now
have
robust
access
to
service
up
to
2,
gigabit,
bidirectional
broadband
internet
at
a
consumer
cost
on
par
with
and
even
lower
than
many
folks
in
urban
areas.
Our
system
can
be
scaled
up
to
10,
gigabits
and
Beyond.
T
Adapting
to
any
future
needs.
It's
also
designed
to
perform
as
advertised
your
enabling
legislation
will
go
down
in
history
as
the
Rea
moment
for
Rural
Broadband
in
many
parts
of
this
Commonwealth.
It
took
us
about
20
years
to
build
the
electric
infrastructure
to
reach
90%
of
the
homes
after
the
Rea
was
passed.
T
It
is
our
goal
with
proper
funding
to
have
fiber
to
every
home
that
we
electrically
serve
in
the
next
3
years.
Building
7,000
miles
of
fiber
infrastructure.
A
project
of
this
magnitude
and
speed
will
be
one
of
the
fastest
fiber
deployments
to
date
in
this
country.
To
move
this
fast
and
to
build
a
long-term,
sustainable
Network,
though
it's
critical
that
we
have
proper
funding
to
see
it
through
without
funding.
It'll
still
be
our
goal
to
reach
every
home
and
business,
but
it
may
take
much
longer
than
the
plan
three
years
going
into
the
project.
T
Our
communities
had
about
23,000,
underserved
and
unserved
homes
based
on
FCC
maps.
In
reality,
as
you'll
hear
from
melissen
a
little
bit,
it
was
much
more
after
connecting
our
first
home
earlier
this
year.
We
have
now
connected
about
2,000
more
in
the
month
since,
and
we
have
8,000
homes
in
the
queue.
The
speed
of
this
deployment
cannot
be
done
without
proper
access
to
Capital.
T
The
combination
of
the
grants
we've
re
received
from
local
state
and
federal
governments,
in
conjunction
with
our
banking
partners
and
our
internet
service
provider
connecton
and
yes
again,
the
rural
electrification
Administration
now
known
as
the
rural
utility
service,
are
the
only
way
this
project
can
be
completed
quickly
safely
and,
most
importantly,
in
a
way
that's
sustainable
for
Generations,
like
the
rule
electric
grid,
we
enjoy
some
90
years
after
it
was
born.
Thank
you
for
your
enroll.
T
Ensuring
funding
is
prudently
spent
on
projects
that
leave
no
person
behind
that
allows
for
complete
investment
into
our
system
that
allows
for
a
self-,
sustainable
system,
and
that
can
be
paired
with
other
uses
such
as
managing
our
electric
grid,
while
providing
the
highest
level
of
benefit
to
people
who
use
it.
When
complete,
we
will
not
leave
a
home
or
business
unserved
that
desires
this
service,
making
Broadband
available
to
all
our
homes
and
businesses
in
our
14
County
area.
T
Our
partnership
with
conexon
allows
us
to
minimize
the
financial
and
other
risks
associated
with
this
project,
ensure
and
ensure
the
cost
of
the
project
projects
are
not
borne
by
our
electric
rate
payers.
This
partnership
is
critical
to
the
success
of
this
project
and
critical
to
the
long-term
sustainability
in
the
future.
When
kenergy
receives
any
excess
revenue
from
this
initiative,
that
excess
will
be
invested
back
into
the
system
used
to
enhance
the
operation
of
the
system
and
given
back
to
the
member
owner
customers
of
the
system,
the
economic
activity
this
project
is
currently
generating.
T
Our
region
is
tremendous.
Presently
we
have
have
over
130
additional
people
in
our
communities
working
on
this
project,
we're
utilizing
companies
that
are
located
in
our
communities
and
are
members
of
kenergy
such
as
Urban
Cable
Construction,
like
what
was
started
in
the
1930s,
with
bringing
light
to
rule
of
Kentucky.
We
are
again
lighting
up
the
rural
areas
through
the
fiber,
empowering
the
people
and
businesses
of
the
communities
to
increase
their
success
and
ultimately
make
our
lives
better,
and
for
this
we
say.
Thank
you.
T
I'
would
now
like
to
introduce
Melissa
Hagen
Melissa
is
one
of
our
member
owners
who
has
recently
received
broadband
service
over
our
fiber
system
and
she'll
talk
briefly
about
the
historic
Broadband
struggles
and
and
what
getting
fiber
means
to
them.
She
works
from
her
rural
home
and,
along
with
her
husband
and
children,
rely
on
the
internet
for
their
work,
education
and
general
quality
of
life.
T
S
Good
afternoon,
thank
you
all
for
giving
me
the
opportunity
to
come
and
speak
to
you
and
tell
you.
Thank
you.
As
most
of
you
know,
in
March
of
2020,
the
World
As
We
Knew
It
halted.
Luckily,
due
to
advances
in
technology,
many
people
were
able
to
begin
working
from
home
and
zoom
meetings
became
the
new
normal
I,
remember
sitting
in
my
cubicle
at
work,
watching
my
co-workers
pack
up
all
the
materials
needed
to
create
an
office
at
home.
They
were
excited
to
ditch
any
commute
time
and
wear
pajamas
from
the
waist
down.
S
I'm
sure
everybody
would
have
been
excited
about
that,
while
I
was
uneasy
already
at
the
thought
of
worldwide
pandemic
breaking
out,
my
worries
didn't
stop.
There.
I
wasn't
packing
anything
in
my
cubicle
and
there
would
be
no
home
office
for
me
when
my
husband
and
I
moved
in
2017
to
a
home
with
land,
the
only
downfall
was
the
inability
to
obtain
internet
granted
at
the
time
it
was
because
we
were
bummed
due
to
lack
of
Netflix,
but
in
2020
it
went
from
a
bummer
to
a
fear.
S
Schools
and
workplaces
were
shutting
down
at
a
rapid
rate,
and
everyone
was
moving
to
remote
learning
and
working,
but
that
wasn't
an
option
for
my
household
I
tried
numerous
times
to
get
someone
anyone
to
give
us
internet
at
our
home,
but
each
time
was
met
with
the
same
response.
I'm
sorry,
but
your
home's
too
far
out
of
our
network
from
March
of
from
March
of
2020
to
July
of
2020
I
remained
physically
in
office.
S
Knowing
the
potential
consequences
of
exposure,
my
kids
were
dropped
off
each
morning
to
a
grandparent
in
order
to
continue
their
school
work
on
online
again
risking
exposure
to
an
elderly
grandparent,
but
we
had
no
other
options.
So
in
July
of
2020
we
were
able
to
find
a
company
willing
to
provide
internet
using
the
cell
phone
towers.
I
was
so
grateful,
but
granted
anytime,
you
sneeze
or
the
Wind
Blows.
The
internet
will
kick
off,
but
it
felt
better
than
nothing.
We
were
paying
double
what
people
we
knew
were
paying
for
a
fraction
of
the
speed.
S
Thanks
to
each
of
you
and
the
folks
at
kenergy.
We
now
have
internet
that
offers
the
same
benefits
of
those
who
live
in
town
without
having
to
give
up
our
dream
of
living
in
the
country.
I'll
tell
you
all
of
this
as
a
way
to
say.
Thank
you.
Thank
you
for
being
the
voice
for
my
family
in
a
room
where
big
decisions
were
being
made,
that
I
wasn't
a
part
of
what
you
did
passing
a
bill.
S
Making
internet
more
accessible
in
rural
Kentucky
has
opened
doors
that
otherwise
weren't
even
Windows
I'm
still
with
the
same
company
celebrating
year
14.
However,
thanks
to
Reliable
internet
I'm
able
to
have
a
fully
remote
work
from
home
position,
making
a
significant
amount
more
annually
than
I
would
otherwise
be
making
I
hope.
This
is
a
reminder
that,
when
you
speak
on
items
that
may
not
directly
impact
you
or
your
family
you're
being
a
voice
for
people
like
me.
Thank
you.
J
Mr
chairman,
yes,
first
is
I
I
noticed
that
you
missed
telling
us
how
how
much
State
funds
you've
received
for
your
project,
so
how?
How
has
House,
Bill
320
helped
you
and
how
much
funding
have
you
received.
T
From
the
state
side
of
things,
we
have
not
received
any
funding.
Yet,
however,
there
is
a
pending
funding
application
that
we're
still
awaiting
the
results
of.
J
Okay,
so
there
is
a
pending
and
then
the
next
question
is:
could
you
expand
on
just
a
little
bit
about
your
cost
per
home?
I
was
under
the
assumption
that
the
program
that
you,
the
application
that
you
submitted
had
some
of
the
lowest
cost
per
home
in
the
state
is
that
correct
on
the
construction
project,
yeah.
T
So
so
I
I
I
I
can't
do
the
math
quite
quickly
in
my
head,
but
I
can
tell
you
that
that
our
budget
for
the
project
is
about
$150
million
and
we
will
pass
approximately
60,000
metering
points,
all
of
which
are
not
homes
so
about
50,000
homes
and
businesses.
So
probably
$3,000
a
home
and
Business
okay,
very
I,
guess
I
can
do
the
math
that
quick.
C
Well,
thank
you
I'm
from
Davis
County.
So
this
is
part
of
my
group
here.
You
know
years
ago
there
was
a
large
Coal
Company
in
our
area,
green
Co
company
and
essentially
went
out
of
business
and
they
were
selling
all
the
ground
for
just
a
really
really
low
price
$100
an
acre
they
offered
to.
C
Let
me
buy
some
of
that,
but
I
said
there's
no
way
because
it
doesn't
have
any
Services
doesn't
have
water
doesn't
have
electricity
doesn't
have
anything
over
the
years
that
ground
has
been
bought
up
by
people,
really
it
literally
Pennies
on
the
dollars
essentially
compared
to
other
property,
and
now,
when
those
people
get
out
there
in
those
rural
areas,
they
they're
wanting
these
services
and
so
I'm.
Just
not
sure-
and
maybe
you
can
explain
to
me-
how
do
you?
C
T
Yeah,
so
the
you
know,
the
the
mission
of
the
Cooperative
program
was
to
leave
no
person
behind
and
the
reason
we
did.
That
is
because
every
time
you
serve
the
loow
hanging
fruit,
it
makes
it
incrementally
harder
and
more
expensive
to
serve
that
last
person.
At
the
end
of
the
end
of
the
line,
we've
taken
the
same
approach
with
with
the
Broadband
side
of
things,
and
we
still
do
it
with
energy.
Is
you
know
we
will
leave
no
person
behind?
T
We
will
you
know
the
Cooperative
way
is
to
blend
the
cost
of
the
infrastructure
and
socialize
that,
among
all
of
the
all
of
the
membership,
it's
a
philosophy
but
I,
I
I,
believe
it's
one,
that's
very
valuable
in
in
solving
existing
things
now,
I
think
there's
a
whole
another
discussion
when
there's
nothing
there
and
what's
that
incremental
cost
and
who
should
bear
that
cost
to
expand
to
something
that
that
isn't
there
already
and
that's
you
know
that's
another
level
of
discussion
that
you
know.
C
I,
thank
you.
I
will
say
that
my
son
and
his
family
have
bought
a
piece
of
property,
a
beautiful
piece
of
property
just
outside
the
city
of
bville.
They
do
not
have
broadband
and
it's
difficult
in
this
age.
If
you
have
children-
and
you
don't
have
it
so
I'm
I'm,
very
supportive
of
what
you're
doing.
T
A
P
Correct
so
the
way
the
statute
was
written,
we
could
not
use
any
electric
funds,
and
that
was
from
the
P.
The
PSC
could
Grant
a
waiver
and
we
had
actually
had
over
500
members
request
that
they
did
not.
So
that's
where
you
guys
took
action
and
were
able
to
right
to
the
statute
now
in
278
that
the
Electric
Cooperative
can
leverage
up
to
25%
of
its
total
assets
for
capital
investment
into
the
affiliate.
P
So
we
still,
it
still
requires
a
subsidiary
or
partner,
as
in
this
case,
is
conects
on
to
actually
be
the
Broadband
provider,
because
it
is
a
non-regulated
product,
but
kenergy
and
the
other
regulated
co-ops
can
now
leverage
their
actual
funds.
And
the
reason
for
that
is
when
you
go
to
make
an
application,
and
you
have
a
brand
new
subsidiary
that
has
no
history
and
no
credit
nobody's
going
to
loan
you
the
money,
so
they
needed
the
backing
from
the
electric
side.
But
yet
our
law
was
written
so
that
they
couldn't
do
that.
A
I
think
I
F
you
out
that
meeting
and
said
you
want
to
run
Broadband,
but
you
can't
wow
and
again,
and
then
what
you
said
about
mapping
doesn't
surprise
me
and
that's
a
challenge
for
all
of
broadband
is
to
try
to
get
it
out.
Is
mapping
is
a
challenge.
It's
absolutely
challenge
without
doubt,
and
the
best
part
about,
since
you
are
energy
Cooperative,
one
of
things
I
hear
most
from
the
Broadband
providers
is
poll
attachment
permits
and
poll
attachment
fees.
You
all
own.
A
The
polls
you
give
your
own
permits,
so
hopefully
you
will
be
able
to
move
faster
than
some
of
the
other
Broadband
providers
and
I
glad
we
were
able
to
do
this
and
get
Broadband
out
to
the
unserved
and
underserved
areas
of
your
area.
So
thank
you
very
much
for
your
presentation
again,
like
I,
said
a
great
good
job
and
the
fact
I
think
it's
a
win
anytime.
A
We
get
Broadband
out
to
the
unserved
underserved
areas
of
Kentucky
and
you're
right,
don't
get
wrong
at
my
house
Amazon
or
somebody
is
dropping
off
a
package
every
day.
My
wife
keeps
them
in
business,
make
no
doubt
about
it,
so
it
it
is
as
important
as
having
a
good
road
in
front
of
your
house
without
doubt,
and
we
do
more
remot
remote
work.
A
Excuse
me
it's
going
to
become
more
and
more
important,
so
thank
you
guys
for
your
presentation
and
unless
we
have
any
more
business
would
like
move
for,
enjoy
enjoinment
so
moved.