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From YouTube: House Standing Committee on Judiciary (2-22-23)
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B
F
G
B
A
G
Thank
you,
and
this
just
was
a
I-
want
to
call
it
a
clerical
error
error
from
way
back
when
they
did
not
add
aunts
and
uncles
to
incest,
and
this
is
simply
adding
aunts
and
uncles.
A
Representative
Petrie
there's
a
second
by
representative
Flannery
and
if
there's
no
discussion
would
our
clerk
please
call
the
roll.
A
And
this
is
on
the
motion
to
adopt
the
committee
sub
to
house
bill
78..
So
please
call
the
roll.
The
bill
is
amended
by
the
sub,
so
please
call
the
roll.
H
H
E
F
F
A
A
J
Thank
you,
chairman
Elliot
Representative,
Steve,
Jones
house
district
69,
testifying
on
behalf
of
house
bill
225..
First
order
of
business.
There
was
a
committee
sub
that
was
sent
out
last
night.
This
committee
sub
repeals
KRS
21A
160
and
replaces
it
with
a
new
or
adds
a
new
section
of
chapter
21A.
That
includes
the
exact
same
language
that
was
in
that
bill
before.
A
J
You
chair,
House,
Bill
225
does
one
thing
it
no
longer
forces
licensed
attorneys
to
be
associated
with
or
Paid
Dues
to
a
trade
Association.
In
recent
years,
the
general
assembly
passed
Right
to
Work
legislation
that
allows
individuals
to
opt
out
of
unions.
Now
we
do
the
same
for
members
of
the
Kentucky
bar
in
2012,
when
the
Supreme
Court
passed
its
existing
due
structure,
Justice
Schroeder
wrote
and
his
dissenting
opinion
that
he
Vietnam
vehemently
opposed
the
most
recent
increase
in
bardus.
J
He
wisely
wrote,
kba
members
engage
in
both
private
and
governmental
practice
are
facing
budget
cuts
that
are
unprecedented
in
recent
history
and
contrast
having
reviewed
the
kba's
proposed
budget,
it
appears
that
there
are
no
Cuts
in
any
programs
or
expense,
and
over
the
past
few
years,
I
have
noticed
and
warned
the
kba
that
it
has
been
increasing
its
base
salaries
at
a
faster
Pace
than
either
the
private
or
governmental
sectors.
Let
me
be
clear:
this
bill
is
not
about
the
funding
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association.
J
It
is
about
giving
attorneys
the
right
to
choose
how
their
dollars
are
spent.
The
kba
provides
numerous
services
to
its
members.
I
appreciate
those
service.
They
are
valuable
and
nothing
in
this
bill
restricts
the
kba's
ability
to
provide
those
services-
the
Ohio
Bar
Association,
for
instance,
charges
for
Cle
and
Conference
programming.
This
bill
does
not
abolish
the
kba;
rather,
it
gives
more
control
to
its
membership
to
influence
the
programming
and
budget
by
voluntarily
joining
and
giving
affirmative
support
through
their
contributions,
including
to
particular
programs.
J
I
think
it's
important
to
look
at
neighboring
states
in
Ohio,
for
instance,
biannual
dues,
that
is,
dues
for
a
two-year
period
and
2022
were
350
dollars
and
in
Indiana
the
fees
are
180
dollars
per
year,
while
Kentucky
was
310
for
one
year,
that
is
Kentucky
dues
are
almost
double.
What
Ohio
and
Indiana
charge
per
year,
whose
Bar
Association
is
not
mandatory.
J
There's
been
a
lot
of
discussion
on
this
bill
about
the
constitutionality
of
what
we're
doing
the
language
in
this
bill
tracks
directly
with
our
Kentucky
state
constitution.
Furthermore,
I
would
add
that
the
First
Amendment
of
the
Constitution
bound
to
this
state
by
the
14th
Amendment
grants
all
people
the
right
to
free
speech.
J
That
is
the
right
to
associate
or
to
disassociate
with
a
group
when
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
engages
in
political
speech.
They
speak
for
all
attorneys
and
it
is
our
constitutional
right.
It
is
our
First
Amendment
right
to
choose
whether
or
not
we
affirmatively
support
that
speech
by
joining
the
bar
association
or
that
we
do
not
by
not
joining
so
I'd
ask
for
your
support
on
House
Bill
225..
Thank
you.
A
Thank
you.
Is
there
any
discussion
among
the
members
representative,
Deets
you're,
recognized.
K
J
We
a
few
years
back,
we
had
Monica
Lewinsky,
come
and
speak
who's,
a
political
actor
who
has
to
speak
on
political
things
at
our
annual
bar
convention.
That's
one
specific
example,
and
there's
been
a
number
of
instances
in
our
bench
and
bar
magazine
where
I've
seen
articles.
J
K
K
Following
up
on
that,
what
you're
referencing
with
Monica
Lewinsky
is
when
she
came
to
speak
it
yearly
convention,
correct
correct
and
aren't
there
other
examples
of
where
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
has
also
invited
more
conservative
voices
to
come
and
speak
to
give
a
well-rounded
presentation
to
its
members
of
both
sides.
They.
J
L
I'd
like
to
quote
a
section
from
the
decision
of
ex
parte
auditor
of
Public
Accounts,
you
may
be
familiar
with
the
case.
It
says
that
the
mission
of
the
association,
meaning
the
kba,
is
to
see
to
it
that
this
trust
relating
to
public
service
is
performed
with
Fidelity
to
the
highest
principles
of
the
calling
of
being
an
attorney.
L
This
requires
that
the
association
maintain
a
proper
discipline
of
the
bar
that
it
initiate
and
supervise
appropriate
means
to
ensure
a
high
standard
of
professional
competence,
and
then
it
bear
a
substantial
responsibility
for
promoting
the
efficiency
and
Improvement
of
the
judicial
system
itself.
I
understand
your
bill
to
be
investing
that
into
the
Supreme
Court.
Is
that
correct.
J
It's
already
in
the
Supreme
Court,
but
yes,
so
so
the
bill
tracked.
The
exact
language
of
the
State
Constitution
as
currently
set
out
admission
discipline
are
already
vested
with
this
with
the
state
supreme
court
and
we're
not
changing
any
of
that.
Okay,.
L
L
You
also
mentioned
in
your
presentation
that
you
want
members
to
be
able
to
determine
how
their
money
is
spent.
Aren't
there
already
ways
that
members
can
influence
what's
happening
in
the
kba,
either
by
becoming
part
of
the
Board
of
Governors
or
investing
their
time,
in
other
ways
to
influence
what
the
kba
does.
J
That
does
exist,
but
when
you
look
at
the
average
salaries
of
certain
attorneys,
you
know
particularly
those
in
Western
and
Eastern
Kentucky,
that
aren't
as
high
as
those
in
the
the
more
centralized
areas
it's
difficult
to
rise
to
that
level
or
to
get
on
that
board
to
make
the
influence.
L
Working
in
a
non-profit
but
I
still
feel
that
anytime
I've
read
the
mention
bar
that
there
seem
to
be
very
balanced
opinions.
Are
you
not
of
the
same
perspective?
No,
no
further
questions.
Thank
you.
A
Thank
you.
Thank
you,
representative,
Doan.
At
this
time,
I'm
going
to
recognize
chief
justice,
Lawrence
Van
Meter
for
discussion
if
you'd
come
forward,
thank
you,
sir,
and
introduce
yourself
for
the
record
and
any
guests
that
you
have
and
I
think
previously.
A
PowerPoint
presentation
was
right,
sent.
A
I
H
D
Good
afternoon,
chairman
Elliott
I'm,
here
with
Todd
McMurtry
who's
from
Fort
Mitchell,
he
is
served
on
the
kba
Board
of
Governors
for
six
years
and
he'll
be
the
vice
president.
This
summer,
which
means
he'll
also
be
the
president
starting
in
2024..
So
we
have
a
short
PowerPoint
to
present,
but
first
I
want
to
read
a
few
passages
from
a
book
United
at
last,
the
judicial
article
and
the
struggle
to
reform
Kentucky
courts,
which
my
good
friend
Jason
nemes,
is
one
of
the
co-authors.
D
So
this
is
a
book
from
a
renowned
constitutional
scholar
that
we
put.
This
book
is
small,
but
it's
mighty,
so
I'll
get
right
to
it,
because
I
know
our
time
is
short
and
you
all
are
busy
with
very
important
matters.
In
chapter
4
entitled
building
an
equal
Branch
representative
nemus
and
his
co-author
Kurt
metzmeyer
discussed
very
various
entities,
Under
the
Umbrella
of
the
Supreme
Court,
such
as
AOC
pre-trial
services
and
the
circuit
court
clerks.
D
They
also
provided
a
history
of
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association,
its
1934
incorporation
into
the
government
as
a
judicial
branch
agency
by
Act
of
the
general
assembly,
and
then
note
it
quote.
The
new
judicial
article
changed
this,
making
the
KVA
and
the
agency
solely
of
the
Judiciary
end
quote:
I
want
to
emphasize.
These
are
not
my
words.
D
The
authors
also
noted
then
chief
justice,
Paul
Moore's
statement
at
the
1980
dedication
of
the
kba
building
on
West
Main
Street
Frankfort.
Today,
the
kba's
identity,
as
an
agency
of
the
Supreme
Court,
is
derived
from
section
116
of
the
Constitution.
Finally,
in
chapter
5,
representative
nemus
undertook
to
identify
key
decisions
of
the
Kentucky
Supreme
Court.
Since
1976.
D
he
wrote
there
are
a
number
of
high
profile
cases
that
interpret
Constitution
powers
of
the
court
of
justice
or
the
Chief
Justice
of
the
Commonwealth,
but
there
are
three
that
stand:
Above
the
Rest.
The
second
case
you
listed
was
ex
parte
auditor
of
Public
Accounts.
This
case
involved
the
dispute
between
the
auditor
and
the
court
of
justice
that
arose
when
the
auditor
wanted
to
look
at
the
kba's
accounts
or
financial
records.
D
Finally-
and
this
is
very
important
so
important
that
I
may
read
it
twice-
Farley
and
ex
parte
auditor
stand
for
the
proposition
that
the
judicial
article
sets
the
Judiciary
side
and
affirms
that
the
management
of
the
court
of
justice,
including
the
AOC,
the
Kentucky,
Bar
Association,
and
the
board
of
bar
examiners,
among
others,
is
exclusively
vested
in
the
Supreme
Court
end
quote,
and
that's
from
page
71.,
so
now
go
right
to
our
PowerPoint
and
one
is
the
quotation
directly
from
auditor
that
says
whatever
Authority
the
court
had
possessed
here
before
by
Statute
with
regard
to
admission
and
practice
and
regulation
of
the
legal
profession
was
superseded
by
Constitution
section
116,
as
amended
in
1975,
the
concluding
sentence
of
which
reads
as
follows:
the
Supreme
Court
shall,
by
rule
government
admission
to
the
bar
and
discipline
of
the
members
of
the
bar
the
case
continues.
D
There
can
be
no
doubt
that
this
Constitutional
Amendment
completely
removed
the
subject
from
any
legislative
Authority
and
rendered
Obsolete
and
ineffective
the
statutes
pertaining
to
it.
The
goes
on
and
what
he
says.
This
is
the
provision
you
all
have
now
deleted
from
the
bill.
I
might
suggest
that
if
you're
going
to
delete
that
section,
you
should
delete
the
other
ones
as
well,
which
is
0.130.15
and
0.140
as
well,
because
those
also
been
held
as
void
because
they
purport
direct
powers
and
limitations
that
no
longer
fall
within
the
legislative
province.
D
Section
116,
as
I've
mentioned
it,
is
the
Authority
for
the
the
regulation
of
the
bar
that
grants
the
power
to
the
Supreme
Court
section
116,
you
can
see
it.
Supreme
Court
should
have
power
to
prescribe
rules
of
practice
and
procedure
for
the
court
of
Justice
Supreme
Court
shall,
by
rural
government
admission
to
the
bar
and
the
discipline
of
the
members
of
the
bar
and
the
next
slide
just
shows.
I
went
back
from
1797
to
1976,
so
for
roughly
180
years
the
general
assembly
provided
for
the
licensing
of
attorneys.
D
You
can
see
a
sample
of
the
statutes
there's
more
than
that.
Obviously,
in
1918
the
court
of
appeals
role
was
formalized
to
set
qualifications
to
practice
law
as
to
both
character
and
knowledge,
and
then,
as
I've
already
noted,
in
1934,
the
general
assembly
established
the
bar
association
as
it
as
a
judicial
branch
agency.
D
I
Good
afternoon
everyone,
my
name,
is
Todd
McMurtry
I've
served
on
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
Board
of
Governors
for
nearly
six
years
and
next
year,
I
moved
to
the
role
of
Vice
President,
so
I've
spent
a
lot
of
time
being
a
part
of
what
the
bar
association
does
and
in
preparation
for
this
hearing.
I
read
the
the
case
ex
parte
auditor
and
I.
I
Think
that
there's
a
quotation
from
the
case
that
really
sums
up
what
we
do,
and
the
first
part
is
it
is
that
it
says
there
seems
to
be
a
rather
prevalent
misapprehension
regarding
the
nature
and
function
of
the
association.
It
does
not
exist
for
the
private
benefit
of
the
legal
Community.
The
members
of
the
bar
are
entrusted
with
privilege
that
places
their
duty
of
Public
Service
above
their
personal
requirements
and
Ambitions.
The
mission
of
the
association
is
to
see
to
it
that
the
trust
is
performed
with
Fidelity
to
the
high
principles
of
their
calling.
I
This
requires
that
the
association
maintain
a
proper
discipline
of
the
bar
that
it
initiate
and
supervise
appropriate
means
to
ensure
or
a
high
standard
of
professional
competence,
and
that
it
bear
a
substantial
responsibility
for
promoting
the
efficiency
and
Improvement
of
the
judicial
system
and
I.
Think
if
you
look
at
the
slide
that
we
have
before
you,
which
says
what
does
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
do?
It
basically
supports
that
mission,
as
stated
in
the
case
in
the
in
Ray
auditor
case
and
just
for
a
quick
background.
I
There
are
four
officers
and
14
board
members
from
the
bar
association
that
come
from
all
parts
of
the
state
and
addressing
the
issue
of
of
you
know,
elections.
Some
often
those
offices
are
contested,
but
there
are
people
from
large
firms
from
small
firms
from
Metropolitan
firms
and
from
rural
firms
that
all
serve
on
the
Kentucky
on
the
bar
association's
Board
of
Governors.
I
So
there
is
a
lot
of
of
different
types
of
lawyers
that
represent
the
entire
bar
on
the
board,
and
one
thing
that
we
do
in
our
decision
making
process
is
that
we
are
very
careful
about.
You
know
not
taking
a
political
stance
on
things.
It's
a
frequent
discuss,
frequent
point
of
discussion
when
we
talk
about
speakers
at
the
at
the
annual
convention
or
any
actions
that
the
Board
of
Governors
May
recommend
to
the
Supreme
Court,
we're
very
careful
and
always
aware
of
the
implications
that
the
decisions
you
know
governing
mandatory
versus
voluntary
bars
effects.
I
I
So,
for
example,
we
do
handle
discipline,
we
do
decide
who
is
licensed
and
those
are
kind
of
the
the
the
things
that
we
do
that
maybe
are
disciplinary
in
nature,
but
we
also
do
a
lot
of
things
to
try
to
make
sure
to
assure
the
quality
of
lawyers
in
the
Commonwealth.
So
if
you
look
at
other
things
that
we
do
to
assure
the
quality
of
lawyers
within
the
Commonwealth,
we
have
continuing
legal
education
programs.
That's
part
of
our
mission
per
in-ray
auditor
per
the
Kentucky
Constitution.
We
want
to
ensure
the
quality
of
lawyers.
I
We
get
lawyers
who
are
not
performing
well
out
of
the
profession
if
need
be,
and-
and
we
were
take
that
responsibility
very
seriously.
We
also
provide
assistance
to
lawyers
who
are
suffering
impairments,
whether
it's
drug
and
alcohol
or
psychological,
and
that's
a
lot
of
the
discipline
that
we
see
that
comes
before
the
Board
of
Governors.
So
I
really
feel
that
when
you
look
at
what
we
do,
it
falls
within
that
Mandate
of
NRA
auditor
and
just
a
couple
of
other
quick
points.
I
The
bar
association
through
the
volunteers
that
serve
from
all
over
the
state
have
has
undertaken
voluntarily
a
lot
of
things.
That
probably
wouldn't
happen.
If
you
had
a
purely
voluntary
bar
because
we
will
serve
people
Statewide
quick
examples
are
a
couple
of
years
ago
we
had
a
rash
of
suicides
across
the
state.
We
immediately
set
up
a
hotline
to
try
to
provide
mental
health
counseling
to
people.
That
was
an
urgent
thing
that
probably
wouldn't
occur
with
the
purely
voluntary
Bar
Association.
I
We
are
right
now
starting
a
rural
practice
initiative
to
try
to
get
attorneys
to
serve
lawyers
in
underserved
areas
and
we're
working
on
that.
We
had
problems
with
an
attorney
named
Eric
Khan
and
we
helped
coordinate
getting
lawyers
to
serve
his
clients,
who
suddenly
found
themselves
without
a
lawyer,
and
we've
responded
very
aggressively
to
help
lawyers
with
the
Eastern
Kentucky
flooding
in
the
Western
Kentucky
tornadoes.
So
I
think
that
we've
really
fulfilled
our
mandate
and
the
people
on
the
in
the
Board
of
Governors
are
volunteering
additional
time
and
then
just
one
thing.
I
I
One
thing
on
on
the
Monica
Lewinsky:
if
you
look
at
our
next
slide
here,
it
says:
do
we
take
an
ideological
or
political
positions
and
representative
Doan
mentioned
the
Monica
Lewinsky
talk
I'm
sure
some
of
you
know
that
I
represented
Nick
salmon,
who
was
the
young
man
in
Washington
D.C,
who
was
attacked,
maligned
practically
destroyed
through
the
efforts
of
cancellation
by
our
media,
and
when
we
talked
about
having
Monica
Lewinsky
come
to
speak.
I
really
saw
that
as
an
opportunity
to
help
educate
people
on
the
types
of
attacks
that
conservatives
suffer
all
the
time.
I
It's
not
that
it's
political,
it's
just
an
attack
and
I
wanted
her
to
speak
about
cyber
bullying,
so
I
saw
it
as
completely
non-political,
but
also
addressing
a
very
important
issue
that
we
face,
and
that
is
cyber
bullying
and
I
represented,
probably
the
second
most
prominent
person,
maybe
after
Miss
Lewinsky
on
that
issue.
So
you
know
we
do
take
this
issue
of
ideological
or
political
positions
very
seriously.
We
are
always
cognizant
of
Keller
versus
the
State
Bar
of
California,
and
also
we
as
members
of
the
Board
of
Governors.
I
I
Yeah
with
regard
to
dues,
we
have
limitations
on
use
of
dues
in
the
current
kba
policy,
and
it
says
such
dues
will
not
be
used
for
political
or
ideological
activities
that
could
reasonably
be
construed
to
impinge
upon
the
First
Amendment
rights
of
speech
of
members
who
disagree
with
such
ideological
and
political
activities.
I
explained
with
Monica
Lewinsky.
We
we're
cognizant
of
that.
I
We
brought
her
in
for
a
very
particular
reason
regarding
cancellation
and,
as
you
know,
from
the
Keller
decision,
as
you
may
know,
in
the
event
of
a
particular
activity
that
uses
compulsory
dues
is
claimed
to
impinge
upon
such
unconstitute
such
constitutional
rights
of
the
members.
The
board
will
comply
with
the
procedures
and
requirements
set
forth
in
Keller
and
will
refund
to
the
member
or
permit
the
member
to
withhold
a
proportionate
amount,
as
may
have
been
expended,
and
and
just
on
the
issue
of
dues
that
was
raised
earlier.
I
Dues
have
not
gone
up
in
10
years
and
I
served
on
the
budget
committee
this
year,
and
you
know
frankly,
we
don't
anticipate
that
dues
are
going
to
increase
in
anytime
soon,
for
you
know
the
foreseeable
future
and
probably
well
after
the
time
that
I've
left
the
board
so
address
that
quick
point.
We
have
more.
D
Here
then
yeah,
the
next
couple,
slides
mandatory
integrated
bars,
they're
32.
You
can
see
that
we're
there
we're
not
the
only
one
in
our
neighborhood
that
that
has
a
mandatory
bar
I'm
kind
of
looking
Kentucky's
in
there
I
think
West
Virginia
Virginia
Missouri.
D
So
a
lot
of
our
neighboring
states
are
in
there
the
states
that
don't
have
representative
Dome
touched
on
to
Ohio
and
Indiana.
Don't
the
next
slide
talks
about
what
the
fees
dues
are
for
an
experienced
attorney?
You
see:
Illinois
385,
Indiana,
180,
Kentucky,
310,
Missouri,
410,
Ohio
350,
bianally
Tennessee,
which
does
not
have
a
mandatory
bar
actually
570
dollars.
D
I
Real
sure
you
know
in
preparation
for
this
this
hearing
today
we
did
look
at
other
states
and
and
efforts
that
had
been
made
in
the
courts
to
to
have
Federal
lawsuits,
challenging
mandatory
bar
membership
and,
as
you
can
see
here,
every
one
of
them
has
failed,
and
you
know
because
our
our
bar
association
and
our
Board
of
Governors
are
so
attuned
and
careful
about
what
we
do
with
regard
to
Heller.
You
know
we
feel
that
we'll
fit
nicely
within
those
states
where
any
challenge
has
failed,
because
we
take
that
responsibility
very
seriously.
D
I
just
want
to
conclude
with
just
very
short
brief
summation,
and
this
is
another
quotation
from
ex
parte
auditor
in
which
the
court
stated.
Inevitably,
there
is
and
always
will
be,
a
gray
area
in
which
the
line
between
legislative
prerogatives
of
the
general
assembly
and
the
rule-making
authority
of
the
courts
is
not
easy
to
draw.
D
We
shall
continue
to
do
so.
So,
as
I
stated
in
my
formal
investiture
six
weeks
ago,
we
the
three
branches
of
government.
We
prefer
to
cooperate
to
the
maximum
extent
possible
in
putting
in
place
those
improvements
to
the
judicial
system
that
will
increase
access
to
the
Justice
of
the
people
of
the
Commonwealth
and
as
a
perfect
example,
representative
nemes
yesterday
filed
House
Bill
440
to
provide
payments
for
Guardians,
add
items
for
minors
and
IPOs
dvos.
This
is
very
much
needed
and
I
urge
favorable
consideration
of
that
bill.
D
I
want
to
avoid
needless
conflict
and,
unfortunately,
House
Bill
225,
including
the
committee
substitute,
which
we've
had
a
time
to
review,
creates
needless
conflict
and
I.
Would
ask
this
committee
not
to
advance
the
bill
at
this
time,
giving
the
severe
constitutional
questions
surrounding
it.
Thank
you.
D
M
Well
and
I
and
I
want
to
thank
you
for
the
short
time
you've
been
on
the
bench.
You've
been
not
only
as
chief
justice
but
as
Justice,
been
very
approachable
and
and
and
and
helpful
and
and
I
look
forward
to
your
tenure
of
as
Chief
Justice
in
the
Kentucky
Supreme
Court's
Kentucky
court
of
justice,
not
just
the
Supreme
Court,
for
hopefully
it
lasts
a
long
time.
So
I
look
forward
to
working
with
you
on
a
lot
of
different
issues.
M
I
would
say
that
both
auditor
and
my
quotations
from
that
book
are
easy
to
distinguish
the
question
before
the
court
and
auditor
is
whether
or
not
there
could
have
been
a
review
of
kba
Records,
and
so
that's
not
what
we're
talking
about
here.
In
my
quotations
there
noted
that
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
was
wholly
under
the
under
the
the
umbrella
or
the
or
the
power
of
the
of
the
Kentucky
Supreme
Court.
This
this
statute
doesn't
do
anything
about
that
either.
M
What
this
statute
would
do
and
I
want
to
say
before
I,
get
into
that
Kentucky
Bar
Association
does
a
lot
of
wonderful
things,
a
lot
of
great
things,
key
lab
and
discipline
a
whole
lot
of
things
that
we
all
as
lawyers
are
very
supportive
of
I
I'm,
also
an
Indiana
lawyer,
which
is
not
a
mandatory
bar
and
and
they
do
a
lot
of
the
same
things.
So
it's
not
like.
M
If
we
don't
have
a
mandatory
bar,
then
the
legal
profession
is
going
to
run
amok
and
that
lawyers
are
not
going
to
be
held
to
Professional
Standards
or
there
won't
be
professional
rules
of
Professional
Standards.
There
will
be
there
are
in
Indiana
and
that
when
lawyers
go
awry
and
have
engaged
in
misconduct
that
they
won't
be
suspended
or
disbarred
from
from
the
practice
of
law,
which
happens
in
Ohio,
no
mandatory
bar
Indiana,
no
mandatory
bar
as
well
as
it
does
in
Kentucky
and
this
bill.
What
does
it
do?
M
This
bill
says
that
the
Kentucky
Supreme
Court
can
do
whatever
it
wants
to
do
with
respect
to
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association,
and
it
specifically
preserves
your
right
to
do
two
things
which
are
what
is
in
section
116
of
the
Constitution,
and
it
says
the
court
shall,
by
rule
government
admission
to
the
bar,
that's
one
and
discipline
of
members
of
the
bar.
That's
two:
we
don't
touch
it.
This
bill
doesn't
touch
admission
to
the
bar.
That's
Kentucky
Board
of
our
examiners,
not
even
the
kba,
but
they
do
that
and
then
the
kba.
M
Rules
part
two
right
and
they
do
the
and
and
the
kba
does
the
discipline
of
the
members
of
the
bar
right,
which
I,
which
I
assume
that
if
this
bill
goes
through,
that
you
guys
will
will
deputize
the
kba
to
continue
to
do
to
do
that.
The
Kentucky
Bar
Association
can
still
be
very
strong.
What
this
bill
does.
Is
it
finally
recognizes
that
a
man
or
a
woman
ought
not
be
required
to
join
an
association
to
put
food
on
the
table?
M
M
If
you
want
to
be
a
nurse,
you
don't
have
to
join
the
Kentucky
Nurses
Association.
If
you
want
to
be
an
architect,
you
don't
have
to
join
the
Architects
Association.
If
you
want
to
work
it
forward,
you
don't
have
to
join
the
UAW.
It's
only
here
where
there's
a
required
compelled
membership
into
an
association,
a
lot
of
the
things
that
they
do.
I
support.
A
lot
of
the
things
they
do
I
strongly
oppose
and
don't
want
to
be
associated
with
the
group
that
uses
my
money
to
give
to
Monica
Lewinsky
I.
M
B
M
M
This
makes
it
right
and
it
does
it
in
a
way
Mr
Chief
Joseph,
with
all
due
respect
it
does
it
in
a
way
that
preserves
it
tracks
the
exact
language
of
the
Constitution
and
says:
do
what
you
want
and
do
whatever
you
want,
but
you
can't
require
a
person
to
be
a
member
of
The.
Association
Indiana!
Does
it
and
they
do
all
the
great
things
that
my
friend
Mr
mercury
has
talked
about.
We
want
to
make
sure
that
professionalism
is
furthered.
No
doubt
about
that.
M
No
one,
certainly
up
here,
would
disagree
with
that,
but
neither
do
the
states
that
don't
have
a
mandatory
bar.
So
that's
what
I
have
to
say
and
I
guess.
My
question
would
be
and
I'm
not
going
to
ask
you
to
the
Chief
Justice,
because
that
feels
too
aggressive
I
don't
want
to
do
that,
but
I
asked
for
you
Mr
Murphy.
M
I
What
I
do
is
I
support
what
the
association
does
for
the
profession
and
I.
Don't
think
it
could
do
it
as
well
for
the
profession
if
it
were
not
mandatory,
because
we're
able
to
to
have
revenue
from
all
of
the
attorneys
to
do
a.
You
know
pretty
large
amount
of
good
with
all
the
programs
that
were
listed.
I
I
I
don't
know
what
the
doctors
could
or
could
not
do
with
mandatory
membership.
I
do
know
that,
by
having
the
support
of
all
the
lawyers
in
this
in
the
Commonwealth
were
able
to
do
a
lot
more
and
I
I
stand
by
the
fact
that
I,
don't
think
our
our
association
is
political
I
think
we
really
do
focus
on
the
NRA
auditor
goal.
That
is
stated
in
that
case
and
that
that
fits
within
the
Constitutional
mandate
that
the
Chief
Justice
described.
M
I
would
ask
you
offline
to
go
look
at
the
2020
kba
convention
program
which,
by
the
way
didn't
have
any
options.
It
was
one
program
because
it
was
the
coveted
one
and
if
anybody
can
with
a
straight
face,
tell
me
that
that's
not
political,
then
I'll
ask
Mr
Don
to
withdraw
this
bill.
It
was
shamefully
political.
D
Right
so
here
would
be
my
question.
The
bill,
as
we
know,
admissions,
is
clearly
under
the
the
office
of
Bard
missions
right.
So
that's
one
part,
then
there's
the
discipline
part.
So
under
this
bill,
would
we
be
entitled
to
assess
a
annual
license
fee?
Sure
that'd
be
okay?
No
doubt
what
about
CLE
can
we
can
part
of
the
fee
go
to
Cle?
You.
M
D
M
Under
that
I
think
you
could
deputize
the
kba
or
name
some
organization
that
you
wanted.
You
could
certainly
state
supreme
court
does
it
themselves,
but
you
could
deputize
the
kba
to
do
that.
No.
M
M
D
D
M
A
Well,
I,
second,
that
representative
Flannery
you're
recognized.
N
Well,
I
think
the
Chief
Justice
may
have
answered
my
question,
but
it's
been
my
observation,
the
last
few
years
that
your
predecessor
would
would
come
to
committee
meetings
and
it
appeared
to
me
what
upon
on
the
constitutionality
of
legislation.
N
It
appears
to
me
today
based
upon
your
presentation
that
that
you
may
be
doing
so.
Obviously
you
in
your
statements,
you
maybe
seem
to
think
you're
not
doing
that,
but
is
it
appropriate
for
the
Chief
Justice
or
a
Justice
or
a
judge,
to
come
to
a
legislative
committee
and
opine
on
the
constitutionality
of
pending
legislation.
D
D
If
representative
nemis
is
involved
in
filing
the
briefs
that
he
will,
he
will
expand
on
the
points
he's
made
here
today
or
you
know
if,
if
an
attorney
ultimately
is
suspended
for
non-payment
of
dues,
because
he
thinks
this
bill
is
is
valid
and
you
know
somebody
else
thinks
it's
not.
It
will
come
to
us
to
resolve
if,
if
there's
a
federal
challenge,
obviously,
obviously,
if
there's
a
federal
challenge
that
we
have
no
say
in
that
right.
K
Yes,
I
want
to
thank
you
both
for
being
here
today
and
I.
Guess,
first
I'm
going
to
say:
I
have
been
a
member
of
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
since
1994
and
like
representative
nemus
I'm,
also
licensed
in
Indiana
and
Ohio,
which
are
non-mandatory,
I
choose
not
to
be
members
of
their
bar
associations.
K
K
We
have
tried
to
address
mental
health
in
the
northern
Kentucky
Community
with
our
attorneys,
but
we
can't
even
come
close
to
what
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association
has
done
with
keyla,
with
Substance
Abuse
and
Mental
Health.
What
programs
talking
and
answering
with
from
the
consumer
Point?
What
would
they
lose
and
then
what
would
young
attorneys
lose
as
far
as
their
growth
and
protection?
K
I
Well,
I
think,
for
the
you
know,
starting
with
the
with
the
young
attorneys
what
what
they
would
lose.
There
is
a
very
active
young
lawyer
section
that
is
very
involved
with
the
overall
Board
of
Governors.
They
have
attorneys
all
across
the
state
that
that
are
involved
and
and
work
together
to
do
good
for
the
community.
They've
had
the
legal
food
frenzy
the
past
few
years,
they
do
other
things
that
are
that
are
certainly
fulfilling
and
worthwhile.
I
There's
the
new
lawyer
education
that
we
provide,
which
is
Cle
type
education,
we've
also
done
leadership.
Development
training
for
young
lawyers
to
to
try
to
you
know,
maybe
provide
for
them
some
mentoring
and
some
guidance
on
on
how
to
best
serve
as
an
attorney
and
and
had
training
help
them
understand
how
the
system
works.
I
I
think
your
your
first
question:
if
I,
if
I
recall,
was
what
what
would
be
lost
with
this
change
in
the
bar
association,
I
I
tried
to
say
in
my
primary
remarks
that
I
think
that
everything
that
we
do
really
goes
to
the
idea-
and
you
said
it:
consumer
protection
and
a
lawyer
protection.
So,
in
other
words,
we
are
now
able
to
address
problems
at
the
at
an
early
stage
rather
than
a
later
stage.
So
what
we
see
in
discipline
most
of
the
discipline
deals
with
attorneys
who
have
substance,
abuse
problems.
I
That
is
time
and
again,
that's
that's!
That's
the
problem
that
you
have
nine
out
of
ten
disciplined
cases
are
like
that,
but
we
have.
We
don't
really
have
very
many
and
I've
seen
that
number
come
down
as
I've
as
I've
served
on
the
board,
so
I
think
that
we're
having
a
positive
impact
so
we're
able
to
provide
that
that
consumer
protection,
but
it's
also
lawyer
protection
and
it's
lawyer
protection,
because
we
have
these
Services.
We
have
the
the
availability
of
psychological
counseling
on
a
Statewide
basis.
You
know
we've
addressed
to
as
best
we
can.
I
The
suicide
issue
we're
also
able
to
address
people
who
have
substance
abuse
problems.
You
know,
k-lap
is
probably
our
most
important
activity
because
it
reduces
the
pipeline
of
discipline.
It
does
the
most
to
protect
lawyers
and
to
protect
people
who
are
hiring
lawyers
to
keep
them
away
from
people
who
are
you
know
too
high
or
drunk
or
have
a
problem
and
not
serving
their
cases.
I've
seen
circumstances
where
lawyers
have
missed
statutes
of
limitations
because
of
impairment
and
people
have
suffered.
I
The
other
thing
that
we
have
is
we
have
this
a
client
Security
fund,
that
the
dues
helps
service
and
that
client
Security
fund
will
give
money
back,
not
not
a
hundred
cents
on
the
dollar,
but
it'll
give
money
back
in
a
circumstance
where
a
lawyer
has
has
stolen
and
we've
seen
many
circumstances
where
lawyers
just
leave
the
Commonwealth.
You
don't
even
know
where
they
are
and
they've
taken
the
the
client's
settlement
money
with
them,
wherever
they've
gone
off
to
so
we're
able
to
compensate
them
somewhat.
I
So
I
think
if
we
don't
have
the
bar
structured
as
we
have
and
with
all
respect
to
representative
neimus.
If
we
have
to
go
to
a
somewhat
a
curtailed
structure
where
you
pay
for
what
you
get
I,
don't
know
how
many
people
are
going
to
going
to
pay
for
keylap
I.
Don't
know
how
many
people
are
going
to
pay
for
client
security
funds.
Hopefully,
if
this
were
to
come
to
fruition,
a
lot
of
people
would.
F
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I
have
a
two-part
question
your
honor.
If
this
bill
were
to
become
law,
who
who
would
have
the
standing
to
challenge
it
and
and
who
would
hear
the
case,
would
it
be
the
Supreme
Court
of
Kentucky
and
and
your
honorable
court
that
here's
the
case
your
honor
well.
D
Representative
namus
and
I
actually
discussed
this,
and
what
may
happen
would
be
a
lawyer
would
say:
I'm
not
paying
the
dues
that
have
been
assessed.
They're
assessed
as
of
July,
the
first
they're
payable,
September
1st
and
there's
a
period
of
time
that
you
have
to
pay.
Then
you
get
around
to
January
the
15th
or
so,
and
you're
suspended
if
you're
not
paid.
So
that's
one
way
it
could
come
up
and
I
guess,
there's
other
ways
it
could
come
up
somebody.
B
Thank
you
Mr
chair,
and
thank
you
both
for
presenting
today
and
really
kind
of
touching
on
some
pretty
significant
constitutional
issues.
That
I
think
we
should
all
be
aware
of
I'm
a
dues
paying
member
of
the
Kentucky
bar
and,
as
has
been
discussed
here,
there
are
a
multitude
of
programs
and
services
that
the
bar
association
provides
outside
of
Simply,
Admissions
and
disciplinary
actions.
B
I
I
wanted
to
ask
what
practical
impact,
if
any
this
would
have
on
the
bar
Foundation,
because
a
lot
of
what
we're
talking
about
is
significant
funding.
That
goes
to
a
lot
of
these
programs
and
I
understand
that
if
we
make
them
voluntary
that
those
programs
could
still
exist,
but
on
a
practical
level,
what
would
be
the
impact
on
something
like
the
bar
Foundation
or
some
of
these
other
programs
that
you
all
have
discussed
today.
I
Okay,
you
know
the
bar
Foundation
is
serviced
by
independent
contributions.
A
lot
of
that
would
continue
and
it
could
certainly
choose
to
support
initiatives.
I
mean
oftentimes,
we'll
go
to
the
bar
foundation
and
ask
for
support
for
an
initiative,
maybe
that
we
have
that
could
continue,
but
the
programs
themselves
I
mean
the
Staffing
that
goes
into
running
key
lab
the
Staffing
that
goes
into
to
you
know
running
the
client
Security
fund.
A
lot
of
that
is
done
by
volunteers,
but
there's
still
some
staff
level
participation,
I
would
I
would
suspect,
I'll,
let
representative
niemus
he.
L
You
chair,
I,
have
just
one
final
question:
Mr
mercury
in
your
presentation,
you
had
a
bar
rule
I,
believe
that
said
that
any
members
who
found
objectionable
some
of
the
presentation,
whether
it
was
political
or
otherwise
that
was
made
by
the
bar
association,
could
petition
to
have
a
partial
refund
of
their
dues.
Is
that
a
common
practice?
Do
you
have
a
lot
of
requests
like
that.
I
We
do
not.
We
do
have
requests
from
people
who
are
suffering
some
financial
distress
oftentimes
a
serious
illness.
They
will
that
happens
every
year,
they'll
ask
for
relief
from
their
dues
payments.
Those
are
reviewed
by
the
Board
of
Governors
and
and
99
times
out
of
100
approved.
If
somebody
has
a
real
financial
problem,
but
no
we
do
not
get
requests
for
I.
Think
if
we
return
the
you
know
any
the
the
Monica
Lewinsky
funding,
for
example.
Let's
you
know,
there's
20
000
lawyers
in
Kentucky
and
she
was
paid
twenty
thousand
dollars.
L
So
would
you
say,
then,
that
the
people
who
have
objections
already
have
a
method
of
recourse
where
they
could
request
a
partial
refund
if
they
find
objectionable
any
of
the
things
the
bar
associations.
I
Do
under
law
they
they
could
do
that
and
and
I
think
that
just
goes
back
to
our
decision
to
try
to
be
careful
and
I.
You
know
we
do
have
all
the
programming
and
there
is
some
programming
that
you
might
say
this
leans
one
way
or
the
other.
My
impression
of
the
programming
is
a
lot
of
it's
educational.
So
if
I,
maybe
here
I'm,
you
know
somebody
that
differs
from
me
politically
I'm
interested
in
that
it's
like
opposition
research
to
a
certain
extent,
but
we
do
really
try
to
keep
it.
Keep
it
balanced.
A
D
A
I
We're
I,
as
I
mentioned
briefly
we're
I
served
on
the
budget
committee
this
past
year.
We
really
don't
anticipate
dues
increases,
you
know
for
the
foreseeable
future,
so
we
don't
see
those
going
up.
I'm
also
licensed
in
Ohio
and,
like
representative
Dietz
I,
don't
participate
in
their
in
their
Bar
Association,
but
I'm
very
thankful
to
the
Kentucky
Bar
Association,
because
all
the
free
CLE
is
dual
credit
and
I
last
year
and
a
lot
of
this
stuff
is
online.
So
you
can
take
it
anytime.
I
A
F
I
In
state
or
County
government,
we
do
periodically
have
salary
surveys
on
made
to
compare
our
salaries
to
our
competitor
Sellers
and
that's
not
the
private
sector
so
sure
compared
to
our
competitors,
salaries.
We
are
not
higher
than
those
competitor
salaries.
We
are
at
or
a
little
bit
below,
and
our
goal
is
to
be
able
to
retain
employees
and
and
because
when
we
lose
somebody,
it's
it's
very
painful.
As
everyone
knows,
when
you
lose
somebody
valuable,
it
hurts
your
organization.
I
D
That,
but
can
I
just
can
I
always
say
that
that
we
are
current.
Their
budget
has
not
been
improved
yet
because
we
are
carefully
scrubbing
those
salaries,
because
we
want
to
make
sure
that
they're
not
out
of
line
not
only
with
what
lawyers
make,
but
what,
but
what
we
in
state
government
here
and
state
employees
make
so
we're
doing
I
feel
like
we're
doing
the
Supreme
Court
we're
doing
our
job
and
so
as
of
right.
Now.
This
is
a
little
bit
inside
the
conference
room.
Sure.
A
D
Representative
niemus
said
in
their
many
many
years
we're
we're
asking
our
we're
asking
the
questions
so.
A
That's
under
review,
you
would
want
us
to
ask
good
good,
representative,
Dietz
I
think
has
another
comment
or
question.
K
I
You
know
I
I
could
speculate,
but
it
would
be
pure
speculation
I.
We
have
not
addressed
this
at
the
board
of
Governor's
level
or
at
the
staff
level,
but
I
can
say
with
with
the
programs
that
are
not
strictly
CLE
or
licensing
you
know
there
would
have
to
a
lot
of
work
would
have
to
be
done
to
change
the
structure
and
of
the
organization
that,
and
you
know,
certainly
a
lot
of
people
would
lose
their
jobs
as
well.
C
M
H
K
H
E
My
explainable
vote,
yes,
you
may
yes,
and
it
seems
like
there
is
a
constitutional
issue
of
concern
about
what
Lane
everyone
is
in
and
I
understand
that,
and
it's
no
indictment
of
the
bar
association
itself
and
it
sounds
like
an
answer
to
a
question.
E
This
is
really
a
predictability
of
Revenue
so
that
things
can
remain
steady
with
programming
rather
than
reducing
functions
and
dealing
with
varying
revenues
coming
in,
but
really
what
I
think
this
comes
down
to
is:
is
there
going
to
be
a
voluntary
Association
or
am
I
and
others
going
to
be
required
to
associate
with
people
that
I
might
not
want
to
associate
with,
and
that's
really
the
Crux
of
this
particular
issue?
Well,
yes,.
H
F
A
D
A
A
You,
madam
chairman,
I,
am
delighted
today
to
present
house
bill
231
to
the
members
of
this
committee.
This
bill
actually
passed
in
2017
on
a
95-0
vote
and
what
it
would
do
is
that
it
would
give
the
Department
of
community-based
Services
another
tool
in
their
tool
kit
when
a
child
is
placed
in
an
emergency
placement
due
to
an
unavailable
unavailability
of
the
parents
which,
as
we
lawyers
know,
is
typically
in
a
dependency
neglect
and
abuse
situation.
Promotionally
will.