►
Description
No description was provided for this meeting.
If this is YOUR meeting, an easy way to fix this is to add a description to your video, wherever mtngs.io found it (probably YouTube).
A
A
I
had
a
couple
texts,
I
think
we
will
have
a
couple
members
coming
in
very
shortly
here
before
we
get
started
on
the
agenda.
I
believe
Senator
sickle
has
a
guest
to
introduce
thank.
C
You
Mr
chairman,
no
I,
don't
have
a
guess,
but
I
do
have
an
announcement.
With
your
permission.
C
C
No,
they
are
free
of
charge.
As
you
know,
Mr
chairman,
we
are
not
allowed
to
sell
things
with
our
senator
name
in
front
of
it.
A
Looks
like
first
up
on
the
agenda
is
the
Department
of
Public
advocacy
before
we
get.
If
you
all
want
to
come
on
to
the
table
and
looks
like
representative
sharp
is
present,
I
could
have
a
motion
to
approve
the
minutes
from
the
June
7th
2023
meeting.
A
A
A
I
believe
I
heard
a
second
from
sender,
sickles,
all
in
favor,
say
aye.
Those
meeting
minutes
are
approved
as
well
all
right.
First
up
we
have
the
Department
of
Public
advocacy
here
to
talk
about
Recruitment
and
Retention
issues
and
the
implementation
of
House
Bill
568
that
was
passed
this
year
in
the
regular
session.
E
It
is
an
honor
to
be
here
this
morning
and
I
appreciate
the
invitation
to
talk
about
a
couple
of
specific
issues
with
DPA
and
then
at
the
end,
if
there's
time,
I'll
talk
about
a
couple
of
other
issues
beyond
the
two
on
the
agenda,
but
I
want
to
start
by
giving
you
a
quick
overview
of
who
DPA
is
we're
not
the
largest
state
agency,
but
we're
not
tiny
either.
If
we
had
full
Staffing
and
that's
going
to
be
part
of
what
we're
talking
about
today.
But
if
we
had
full
Staffing,
we
would
be
570
employees.
E
331
of
those
would
be
attorney
positions
and
you
see
the
breakdown
of
the
rest
that
I
won't
run
through.
But
we
have
full
service
public
defender
offices
with
alternative
sentencing
workers
that
tend
to
be
social
workers,
mitigation,
Specialists
investigators
and
then
percentage-wise.
We
have
a
very
small
central
office.
We
try
to
push
as
many
resources
as
we
can
to
the
legal
services.
E
So
my
office,
our
education
training
and
our
operations
tend
to
be
small
and
they're
here
in
Frankfort,
and
we
also
have
19
employees
who
are
part
of
the
protection
and
advocacy
division
of
federally
funded
part
of
DPA.
That's
not
part
of
our
public
defender
World.
They
they
advocate
for
people
with
disabilities.
E
I
will
have
a
comment
about
them
a
little
bit
later,
but
this
would
be
the
makeup
of
DPA
I'm,
going
to
talk
first
about
raises
and
salary
issues
and
then
I'm
going
to
talk
about
House,
Bill
568,
which
would
is
what
how
we
anticipate
transitioning
the
Louisville
office
to
a
DPA
office.
How
I
expect
that
to
go
that
is
not
included
here.
So
this
is
all
just
DPA,
not
including
the
employees
of
the
Louisville
Metro
Public
Defender's,
Office
I.
E
Don't
want
to
go
any
further
in
this
presentation
without
stopping
to
say
thank
you
to
you
for
the
raises
that
were
authorized
in
the
last
budget.
They
have
been
fully
implemented
within
DPA
and
thank
you
for
giving
not
just
the
funding,
but
also
the
authority
that
allowed
me
to
implement
them
in
a
way
that
recognized
experience
that
compensated
employees
that
had
hung
with
us
through
many
years
of
of
no
increments,
and
it's
kept
serving
the
Commonwealth
through
some
difficult
times.
E
I'll
talk
about
how
I
implemented
it,
but
I
and
done
couldn't,
have
been
done
without
that.
That
Authority,
as
well
as
the
funding
I,
also
want
to
thank
the
Personnel
cabinet
for
assisting
and
implementing
that
that
were
very
helpful
throughout
our
starting
and
turning
salary
was
raised
from
48
000
to
52
000,
which
was
significant.
Both
more
money
is
always
better,
but
also
symbolically
paying
an
attorney.
E
Less
than
50
000
was
hard
to
justify
I'm
going
to
talk
later,
but
even
paying
them
52
is
kind
of
hard
to
justify,
but
symbolically
it
was.
It
was
a
big
deal
to
get
us
above
fifty
thousand,
we
created
a
salary
schedule
that
recognized
experience
in
the
position
and
our
average
raise
for
public
defenders
overall
was
22
percent
and
that
was
for
attorneys
and
non-attorneys
throughout
DPA
got
an
average
raise
of
22
percent
that
was
including
the
increment
from
last
year,
so
it
was
eight
percent
plus
14.
E
On
top
of
that,
on
average
here's
a
glimpse
of
our
pay
schedule.
I
don't
put
this
up
for
purposes
of
going
through
the
numbers,
but
just
to
show
you
the
structure
of
how
we
implemented.
We
looked
at
years
of
experience.
We
have
three
levels
of
of
non-supervisory
staff
attorney
and
then
we
have
supervisors
and
managers
and
we
had
certain
amounts
and
we
were
able
to
raise
current
employees
to
this
amount.
For
last
year,
one
of
the
things
on
the
agenda
was
how's
how's
that
working
what
effect
did.
F
E
Well,
as
to
our
non-attornies
I
mentioned
that
that
our
non-attorneys
were
also
included
in
this,
it
has
worked
swimmingly.
Our
non-attorney
turnover
rate
has
gone
down
this.
This
is
an
annualized
rate.
I've
got
three
consecutive
slides
that
have
this
same
format.
These
are
all
annualized
rates,
but
you
see
the
date
ranges
at
the
bottom.
E
There
are
three
date
ranges:
one
is
a
full
year
in
advance
of
the
budget
passing
that
included
money
for
raises
the
nine
months
immediately
following
that
and
2023,
which
is
the
next
year
after
it,
and
so
our
non-attorney
turnover
rate
has
gone
down
significantly
and-
and
we
appreciate
that
attorneys,
it's
a
little
more
complicated
the
109
and
the
109
in
2122.
E
You
know
I
hadn't
been
many
slides
ago,
so
hopefully
you
recall
that
our
total
attorney
population
in
DPA
is
330.
if
you're
decent
at
math.
You
see
that
that's
about
one
in
three
that
in
2021
we
lost
almost
one
in
three
attorneys
which
was
devastating
to
our
agency.
It
undermined
the
the
working
of
the
court
system.
It
was.
E
It
was
a
tragedy
and
and
I
appreciate
that
that
you
recognize
that
by
providing
money
for
the
for
raises,
it
did
have
an
impact
on
our
turnover
rate,
so
you
can
see
in
the
in
the
months
after
it
basically
cut
that
in
half
the
problem
is
now
it's
going
back
up
again.
E
This
I
provided
a
version
of
this
PowerPoint
last
week
and,
if
that's
that's,
undoubtedly,
what's
in
the
materials
that's
posted
on
the
internet,
this
is
actually
an
updated
one.
That
brings
it
through
yesterday,
eight
one
and
the
reason
I
changed
this
quite
frankly,
because
it
went
up
this
week.
Three
three
people
left
this
week.
Two
others
gave
notice
of
leaving,
and
so
our
turnover
continues
to
go
up,
but
it
not
just
goes
up.
E
It's
helpful
to
extend
this
graph
out
two
more
years
in
the
past,
to
show
that
it
is
it
even
when
it
went
down
after
the
raises.
It's
still
not
down
to
our
historical
rate.
We
are
still
higher
than
we
had
been
before.
2020
is
an
odd
year
for,
as
everybody
knows,
for
many
reasons,
people
didn't
tend
to
leave
jobs
that
year,
but
52
in
2019
was
our
was
a
regular
year
for
us,
and
that
was
historically
about
our
rate.
E
Well,
this
is
going
out,
but
with
the
Personnel
system
that
limits
where
the
class
special
specifications
for
positions
in
DPA
well
in
state
government,
generally
there's
a
midpoint
and
without
special
Authority.
E
You
generally
can't
hire
someone
or
raise
someone's
salary
above
midpoint
unless
it's
a
natural
raise
through
an
increment
or
a
re-class,
and
so,
if
I
give
raises
to
people
down
here,
I
can't
I,
don't
have
authority
to
change
these,
and
so
it
creates
compression
that,
even
if
we
do
something
for
some
employees,
I
can't
do
something
for
ones
at
the
top
and
our
salary
schedule
did
treat
those
with
15
20
25
years
of
experience,
raise
them
to
the
midpoint.
E
So
so
there's
a
compression
that
goes
on
now,
while
DPA
has
been
able
to
raise
salaries,
the
rest
of
the
world
has
not
been
standing
still
so
a
dpa's
competitors
for
lawyers,
other
state
agencies,
prosecutors,
the
private
legal
Market.
Compensation
in
all
of
those
areas
has
gone
up
as
well.
Inflation
of
course
affects
this.
A
22
percent
raise
feels
a
lot
better
in
times
of
two
and
three
percent
inflation
than
it
does
in
times
of
five
six.
E
Seven
eight
nine
percent
inflation
and
then
one
of
the
things
that
I'll
talk
about
a
little
bit
is
how
many
vacancies
we
have
when
we
lost
a
third
of
our
attorneys
in
the
year.
We
have
not
recovered
from
that.
I
want
to
be
very
clear.
We
have
about
30
vacancies.
We
can't
catch
up
to
because
every
time
we
hire
somebody
somebody
else
leaves
so
we
have
not
been
able
to
get
back
to
full
Staffing
and
now
it's
not
a
short-term
problem.
E
It's
a
long-term
problem
and
that
ongoing
stress
has
just
added
to
the
stress
of
public
defenders.
So
that's
a
continuing
challenges.
People
say
that
they
simply
can't
continue
to
do
the
work
of
two
and
three
attorneys.
While
we
try
to
fill
a
vacancy
of
a
co-worker.
So
that's
all
continuing
to
to
be
a
challenge.
E
I
mentioned
that
prosecutors
salaries
have
gone
up,
I
I
do
this.
Is
a
budget
committee
so
I
understand
that
the
prosecutors
advisory
council
is
not
before
this
committee?
That's
in
general
government,
but
I
still
want
to
make
the
point
that
indigen
defense
is
funded
significantly
less
than
prosecution
prosecution.
This
is
a
graph
show
in
the
last
12
years
and
it's
around
60
percent
more
that
we
fund
prosecution.
Now,
yes,.
E
But
they
do
not
have
60
more
cases
than
we
do
and
and
yet
have
60
more
of
the
funding
and
historically
including
in
in
the
past
year,
about
one
in
four
DPA
attorneys
who
leave
leave
to
become
prosecutors
for
a
higher
salary.
They
don't
leave
us
to
just
go
laterally.
They
take
a
higher
salaries.
Prosecutors
are
able
to
offer
higher
salaries
to
them
and
so
about
one
in
four
go
to
prosecutor's
office.
E
And
we've
raised
it
three
percent,
so
these
numbers
are
a
little
different
than
what
what
was
on
the
previous
slide
I'll
give
me
a
switch
to
this
one
yeah
all
right.
E
We'll
go
with
this
one,
so
this
this
space
schedule
for
this
year,
it's
about
three
percent
higher
than
what
it
was
last
year.
The
ones
in
green
are
midpoints,
meaning
I
can't
raise
those
any
higher.
That's
that's
as
high
as
I
can
go,
so
you
can
see
we've
raised
this
year
to
53
560.,
so
we're
we're
inching
up.
E
E
You
look
at
see
that
we
have
20-year
attorneys
that
aren't
making
68
500
and
that
fresh
out
of
law,
school
attorneys,
making
fifteen
thousand
dollars
less
than
the
the
county
attorney's
offering
to
pay,
and
then
the
third
part
of
this
puzzle
that
makes
this
complicated
is
I
talked
about
the
class
specifications.
Here's
the
Personnel
cabinet
class
specification
for
a
staff
attorney,
one
which
is
entry
level
staff
attorney
the
pay
rate.
The
midpoint
for
37.5
hour,
which
is
our
our
agency,
is
51.69.
If
you'll
pardon
my
Elementary
School
writing,
that's
best.
E
I
could
do
with
a
mouse.
I've
made
the
done
the
math
for
you,
that's
62,
034
is
the
highest
salary.
I
can
pay
in
state
government
for
an
entry-level
staff
attorney.
So
even
if
I
had
the
money,
which
is
certainly
my
ask-
is
that
that
money
is
provided
to
raise
salaries
further.
But
even
if
you
give
that
to
me
until
the
class
specification
is
changed
by
the
Personnel
cabinet,
I
can't
come
within
six
thousand
dollars
of
that
salary.
E
The
Personnel
cabinet
is
undergoing
a
review
of
the
specifications.
I
believe
the
legislature
is
supposed
to
get
that
report
by
November
of
this
year.
I
hope
it
includes
classification,
but
that's
where
we
are
right
now,
and
so
one
of
the
things
that
would
be
helpful
to
us
is
for
DPA
I
think
we
should
be
I.
Think
our
attorney
position
shouldn't
be
bound
by
the
specifications
in
Personnel.
E
E
A
separate
Challenge-
and
this
is
a
challenge
both
for
prosecutors
and
for
defense-
is
there
are
simply
less
lawyers
now
a
response
to
that
is
to
say,
you
know
yippee
in
society
there
are
less
lawyers
to
deal
with,
but
in
this
context
it
creates
real
challenges.
There
are
25
percent,
less
lawyers
being
produced
out
of
law
schools
nationally
than
there
were
just
a
decade
ago.
A
lot
of
people
don't
want
to
be
Public
Defenders.
This
is
this
work
is
stressful.
E
That
subset
goes
down,
but
also
the
competition
really
goes
up
and
that's
why
salaries
have
gone
up
overall,
so
we're
having
a
hard
time
competing
and,
as
I
say
at
the
bottom,
the
turnover
created
vacancies
and
we
can't
catch
up
in
the
current
legal
Market
there
simply
Aren't
Enough
attorneys
out
there,
and
so
what
we're
asking
for
is
my
talking
point
used
to
be
make
us
competitive.
Someone
shouldn't
have
to
take
a
pay
cut
to
serve
the
Commonwealth
through
being
a
public
defender
but
I
think
now
being
competitive.
E
A
E
Please
proceed
all
right.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
and
thank
you
lrc
for
working
through
this.
Just
to
finish
up
the
thought
here
on
I
I
do
think.
There's
value
in
working
towards
standardizing
prosecutor
and
Defender
salaries
for
the
criminal
system
to
work.
We
have
to
have
effective
qualified,
competent
people
on
both
sides
of
the
courtroom.
E
The
way
the
system
is
set
up
now,
prosecutors
are
hired
outside
of
the
18a
state
Personnel
system.
So
essentially
a
prosecutor
can
pay
whatever
they
need
to
pay
within
budget.
They
have
a
budget
just
like
I
do
but
requires
permission
on
multiple
levels
that
may
be
denied.
It's
not
a
formality.
E
The
last
thing
I
want
to
talk
about
with
with
this
turnover
issue
is
a
is
a
vicious
cycle
that
goes
on,
that
that
gets
a
little
complicated,
but
I'll
try
to
walk
through
it
as
quickly
quickly
as
I
can
because
it's
important
where
we
are
right
now
and
why
we
can't
fill
positions
so
we've
had
turnover
because
we
have
turnover
we
then
enter
into
contracts.
E
We
find
private
attorneys
who
are
willing
to
take
a
certain
number
of
cases
or
cover
a
docket
for
a
for
a
amount
of
money,
that's
more
expensive
than
the
our
efficient
public
defender
system.
So
that's
costing
us,
but
we
have
no
choice.
We
have
to
do
it.
E
Sometimes
it's
to
lift
the
load
of
co-workers,
sometimes
it's
just
to
have
a
body
in
court
because
we
don't
have
one
so
we
enter
into
contracts
while
we
enter
into
contracts,
we're
recruiting
the
people
we're
recruiting
when
they're,
not
law,
school
students
are
qualified
criminal
defense
lawyers
and
we
go
to
the
criminal
defense
lawyers
who
are
competent
in
the
community.
We
say:
hey,
you
want
to
come
work
for
us
and
they
say
why
would
I
work
for
you
you're,
paying
me
on
a
contract,
tens
of
thousands
of
dollars
in
some
instances
to
handle
these
cases?
E
Why
would
I
come
deal
with
state
government
employment
when
I
can
just
have
the
money
for
free
or
through
a
contract?
So
we
have
to
enter
more
contracts
because
we
can't
recruit
as
we
enter
into
more
contracts,
maybe
you're
ahead
of
me.
What
happens?
Is
our
current
employees
look
out
and
they
see
private
attorneys
in
their
area,
making
tens
of
thousands
of
dollars
through
contracts
and
they
leave
us?
E
This
is
not
a
hypothetical
on
Monday.
I
was
notified
of
some
of
one
of
our
attorneys
in
a
trial
office
that
has
resigned
and
in
the
resignation
letter
said
this
job's
too
stressful.
It
doesn't
pay
enough
I'm,
leaving
to
start
my
own
private
practice,
but
by
the
way
I
will
be
available
to
take
contracts
to
handle
criminal
defense
cases
and
because
that's
now,
a
vacancy
we
may
be
forced
into
a
contract.
Now
we're
not
forced
into
a
contract
with
him
and
he
may
be
disappointed.
E
E
Way
well,
actually,
I
do
know
what
the
answer
is
to
raise
the
pay
of
our
public
defenders
to
where
our
public
defenders
don't
see
a
financial
incentive
to
leave
the
ones
we
have
stay
so
that
we
don't
have
to
recruit,
and
perhaps
some
of
those
that
are
in
the
private
Market
say:
hey,
state
benefits
and
a
competitive
or
or
incentivized
salary.
That
sounds
good
to
me.
That's
how
you
fix
it.
Let
me
talk
about
recruiting
real,
quick.
We
recruit
in
state
and
nationally
there's
the
breakdown
of
our
law.
E
Schools
UK
at
the
the
highest
level
about
one
in
five
DPA
attorneys
come
from
UK,
but
overall
56
percent
come
from
the
three
in
state
law:
schools
44
from
out
of
state.
We
cannot
fill
our
all
of
our
positions
with
Kentucky
law
school
people,
maybe
that
maybe
that
would
be
a
goal,
maybe
not,
but
whether
it
is
or
not.
We
can't
do
it.
We
have
to
recruit
nationally,
so
we
do
job
fairs.
E
Gideons
promise
is
a
national
public
defender,
training
organization
that
has
good
contacts
with
the
civil
rights
groups
and
law
schools,
and
so
we
use
them
to
get
some.
We
have
a
national
reputation,
as
many
of
you
know,
for
training
and
for
a
stable
system
and
so
we're
able
to
recruit
nationally,
but
it
is
a
tough
market
for
the
reasons
that
I've
mentioned,
and
so
it's
hard
to
get
people.
So
what
I
need?
This
is
an
ask.
What
I
need
is
flexibility
and
Authority.
E
Every
year
we
lose
recruits
because
people
who
are
in
law
school
want
to
do
public
defender
work,
but
they
can't
get
to
Kentucky
and
so
I
just
lay
out
here.
Imagine
what's
happening
so
a
lot
of
people
that
are
interested
in
public
defender
work
don't
come
from
money.
They
went
a
lot
they're
like
the
first
generation
of
their
of
their
family
that
went
to
law
school.
They
want
to
serve
the
public,
so
they
don't
have
a
a
bunch
of
money
in
the
bank,
particularly
after
they've
spent
over
a
hundred
thousand
on
their
law
school
education.
E
E
If
they
work
for
state
government-
and
they
start
on
August
1st,
they
actually
don't
see
a
penny
of
pay
until
August
30th.
They
got
to
get
through
the
entire
month
and
then,
when
they
get
a
paycheck.
It's
one
of
our
paychecks,
which
is
not
that
high
one
of
my
staff
said
that
some
of
the
some
people
wouldn't
recognize
the
cent
sign,
because
it's
not
used
anymore
but
they're
dollars
for
all
those
cents.
For
our
public
defender
salaries,
just
symbolic
and
so.
E
For
I
want
authority
to
have
I
want
this
language,
which
is
not
to
give
me
extra
money,
I'm
going
to
ask
for
plenty
of
extra
money.
But
that's
not
the
point
of
this.
It's
authority
to
use
the
money
we
have
to
use
for
one-time
payments
to
create
a
program
where
I
can
have
structured,
one-time
payments
for
incoming
or
current
employees
for
the
purpose
of
improving,
recruiting
and
retention
and
public
retention
of
public
defenders.
E
If
I
could
set
up
a
program-
and
this
would
be
completely
transparent,
I'd
report
to
you
all
in
advance
on
what
the
criteria
is
and
after
on
every
single
payment
that's
made.
So
this
is
not
some
hidden
slush
fund
where
we
just
spend
it.
However,
we
want
this
will
be
completely
transparent,
but
if
I
could
have
a
fund
like
this
to
where,
when
a
UCLA
law
school
graduate
contact
system
says
I'd
love
to
come
work
for
you,
but
I
can't
do
it
financially.
E
If
I
could
say
here's
four
thousand
dollars
and
in
exchange
for
that
four
thousand
dollars,
you
commit
to
work
for
me
for
at
least
two
years
or
we
take
it
back
out
of
your
last
paycheck-
that
four
thousand
dollars
might
be
the
difference,
because
maybe
that
maybe
that
helps
them
move.
Maybe
that
pays
that
first
rent,
maybe
that
gets
them
to
that
first
paycheck.
Four
thousand
dollars
would
be
a
very
small
investment
for
a
qualified,
competent
public
defender
to
come
to
Kentucky
and
and
use
their
talents
here.
E
But
right
now,
I
don't
have
funds,
I
don't
have
Authority
for
that
there
is
no
signing
bonus
provision
in
state
government
I
would
like
that,
and-
and
this
is
probably
my
top
priority
when
it
comes
to
to
budget
language-
is
to
have
this.
It's
it's
essential.
We
lose
lots
of
people
for
this.
E
It's
left
over
from
before
the
budget
and
I'm
not
going
to
go
through
this,
but
this
is
the
kind
of
the
the
worst
case
scenario.
Is
that
the
entire
system
shuts
down
I
know
you
hear
doomsday
scenarios
every
now
and
then
in
the
legislature,
where
somebody
will
come
and
say
Doomsday's
coming,
it
could
be
I'm
not
saying
we're
there
yet,
but
imagine
what
the
system's
like
if
turnover
continues
to
improve
or
improve
increase.
E
If
there's
no
lawyers,
the
worst,
the
worst
crimes
in
your
neighborhood
can't
be
prosecuted,
because
the
trial
is
just
going
to
go
on
the
the
court
case
is
just
going
to
go
on
and
on
as
public
defenders
Shuffle
in
and
out
and
at
some
points
we
may
have
a
criminal
defendant
standing
in
court
and
nobody's
next
to
them,
and
so
the
judges
says
I
can't
do
anything
because
we
don't
have
a
lawyer.
That's
that
is
possibly
the
outcome
here.
E
If
we
don't
do
something
to
address
this
all
right,
so
that's
it
for
for
paying
sellers
now.
Let
me
switch
to
Louisville
Jefferson
County
House
Bill
568
requires
that
on
July
1
of
2024
well,
mechanically,
it
didn't
require
it,
but
it
allowed
that
on
July
1
2024,
the
Louisville
Public
Defender's
office
would
become
DPA
and
once
the
the
local
county
says,
it's
not
going
to
fund
it
anymore,
which
it
has
said.
So
it
is
going
to
happen.
E
We
are
excited
about
this,
we're
we
were
concerned
with
House
Bill,
568's,
aggressive
timeline
and
it
is
making.
It
is
Raising
the
stress
level,
of
all
involved
that
this
is
done
on
a
compressed
time
level
timeline.
But
the
good
part
is
we're
on
track
to
get
this
done,
to
get
it
done
well
and
and
we're
going
to
make
it
work,
and
so
so
we're
excited
about.
E
What's
what's
going
to
go
on
with
Louisville
as
a
DPA
office,
so
that
we
have
for
the
first
time
a
true
Statewide
system
where
the
entire
system
is
under
the
same
umbrella?
Here's
here's
what's
going
on
this
fiscal
year
in
advance
of
that
DPA
is
providing
a
little
over
six
million
dollars
of
funding
to
that
office.
E
5.5
million
in
cash
to
that
office
to
for
its
purposes
and
then
about
five
hundred
thousand
dollars
of
non-cash
those
are
like
licenses
and
and
things
we
buy
for
an
entire
agency,
and
we
we
include
Louisville
in
it,
and
then
the
Metro
Government
for
this
year
for
the
last
year
will
be
providing
4.8
million
dollars
out
of
their
local
budget.
E
Full
Staffing
in
Louisville
would
be
129
employees,
78
of
which
are
attorneys.
They
are
not
at
full
Staffing,
they're,
probably
less
percentage-wise
Staffing
than
even
we
have
I'm
told
that
right
now
they
have
about
90
to
100
employees.
E
At
the
time
I
prepared
this
I
thought
they
had
50-ish
attorneys
I've
been
told
the
number
may
be
lower
than
that.
It
may
be
in
the
it
may
be
in
the
40ish
range,
but
they're
they're
way
down
on
attorneys.
They
have
a
temporary
workload.
Reduction
Program
TWRP
is
what
they
call
it.
Those
are
similar
to
what
I
talked
about
for
us
private
attorney
contracts
that
are
more
expensive
and
and
less
accountable
frankly
than
having
a
full-time
system.
But
that
is
that's
how
they're
getting
by
right
now
and
their
case
assignments.
E
For
last
year,
we
haven't
we're
doing
final
numbers
for
23
yet,
but
for
22
or
just
over
21
500
cases
our
transition
process.
Right
now
we
are
we've
collaborated
with
Louisville
leadership.
Continue
to
do
that.
We
have
on-site
meetings
with
staff.
Our
entire
leadership
team
went
to
Louisville
in
May
and
had
I
think
it
was
a
series
of
six
one-hour
meetings
with
different
parts
of
the
the
staff
there.
They
were
very
productive
meetings.
E
We
invite
any
questions
and
concerns,
and
it
was
good
to
to
get
to
know
people
and
to
to
hear
about
that.
We
have
a
transition.
Advisory
Group
that's
met
once
and
is
going
to
meet
monthly,
we're
doing
informational
webinars
every
month
to
involve
them
and
answer
their
questions
and
we're
meeting
with
legislators
to
make
sure
everybody's
on
board
and
that
we're
doing
everything
that
you
want
us
to
do
so.
E
The
priorities
when
it
comes
to
the
Louisville
transition
number
one
number
one
number
one
is
funding
our
estimated
funding
requests
related
to
this
is
going
to
be
10
about
10.8
million
total,
but
keep
in
mind
that
that
Louisville
has
been
providing
4.4,
and
so
that's
part
of
this
4.4
is
is
replacing
Louisville.
E
So
all
the
state
would
be
asked
to
do
is
provide
about
six
million
dollars
on
top
of
what
Louisville
is
providing
now
and
the
assumptions
of
that
budget
request
are
that
we
got
to
get
them
back
to
full
Staffing
that
those
employees
would
be
in
the
state
retirement
system
and
an
assumption
is
that
they
get
to
stay
where
they
are
and
not
have
to
move
in
in
building
and
that
the
rent
would
not
increase
by
more
than
20
percent.
E
The
Louisville
Metro
Public
Defender
well
I
talk
about
the
building
a
little
bit,
but
it's
right
downtown
and
it's
essential
that
we
that
we're
able
to
stay
in
that
building.
If
we
have
to
move
that's
going
to
be
a
big
cost,
both
the
moving
process
and
it's
much,
it's
very
likely-
it'll
be
much
more
expensive,
so
10.8
is
way
more
than
4.8.
E
So
why
that's?
The
the
extra
six
I
was
talking
about
biggest
things.
The
substantial
increase
in
retirement
the
local
office
right
now
is
paying
7.25
percent
towards
retirement.
The
the
state
rate
for
this
year
is
66.
That's
that's
huge.
It's
to
deal
with
the
State
Retirement
System
about
double
the
cost
of
health
insurance.
State
insurance
will
be
about
double
the
cost
of
what
the
local
office
is
paying.
E
Currently
I
mentioned
about
a
20
increase
in
rent
and
many
employees
will
get
pay
increases
because
our
pay
schedule
in
many
air
in
many
levels
is
higher
than
than
what
they
would
pay,
and
so
so
people
get
raises,
which
is
a
good
thing.
E
Cot
has
many
requirements
for
state
government
offices,
and
so
we
would
need
Network
and
Hardware
phone
system
upgrades
to
to
comply
with
that.
Some
of
those
would
be
one-time
expenses,
but
some
of
those
would
be
annual
cot
charges.
It
does
not
include
any
additional
Personnel
for
DPA
Beyond
Louisville
employees.
We
will
need
things
I'm
going
to
talk
about
some
restructuring
we
need,
but
within
that
129
employees
of
Louisville
we're
going
to
get
a
lot
of
good
quality,
talented
people
for
HR
and
fiscal
and
and
the
kinds
of
help
the
DPA
will
need.
E
So
this
doesn't
include
anything
for
DPA
above
the
employees
we're
getting
from
Louisville
priority
number
two.
This
is
all
so.
Funding
is
number
one,
but
it
also
is
involved
in
all
all
of
the
rest
of
these.
But
priority
number
two
is
employee
retention.
I
talked
about
doomsday
scenario.
My
doomsday
scenario
for
20,
for
the
Louisville
situation
is
that
20
000
clients
are
not
going
to
have
a
lawyer
on
July
1
2024.,
the
courtroom
table
with
no
lawyers
in
it.
The
employees
in
Louisville
are
valuable.
E
Talented
employees
and
I
want
every
one
of
them
to
stay,
but
many
of
them
have
voted
with
their
feet
since
this
bill
passed
and
have
left.
That's
why
the
Staffing
is
so
low,
and
so,
if,
among
those
30
to
40
lawyers
that
remain
or
maybe
maybe
mid,
40
lawyers
that
remain,
if
many
more
of
them
leave
we're,
simply
not
going
to
be
able
to
do
the
job.
So
employee
retention
is
important
to
me.
E
We
have
to
retain
their
staff
to
do
the
work
and
because
they're
the
best
public
defenders
we
got
in
in
Louisville,
they
are
doing
the
job
well
and
we
want
to
keep
them
in
the
service
of
the
state,
and
so
we
need
a
smooth
transition
statute.
E
I've
discussed
this
with
representative
niemus,
the
original
sponsor
of
the
bill,
and
this
will
be
proposed,
and
this
will
provide
Assurance
to
the
employees
that
number
one
they're
going
to
have
a
job
number
two
they're
not
going
to
take
a
pay
cut
that
they're
going
to
be
full-fledged
state
employees
with
all
the
benefits
that
come
there
in
and
that
in
some
as
much
as
we
can
we're
going
to
recognize
that
they're,
not
fresh
state
employees
that
they
have
been
doing
this
service
for
years
and
we're
going
to
try
to
recognize
that
as
much
as
we
can.
E
So
that
statute
will
be
a
high
priority
third
priorities:
pension
system.
We
need
to
figure
out
what
to
do
with
that.
They
have
not
been
in
state
pension
system,
so
they'll
be
starting
over.
Many
have
sufficient
experience
to
be
tier
one
and
tier
two.
They
have
employees
there
that
started
in
the
well,
some
in
the
80s,
but
more
in
the
90s
and
early
2000s.
E
We
want
to
fairly
treat
them
on
for
retirement
and
for
those
that
will
be
in
tier
three.
We
need
to
figure
out
a
way
to
credit
their
years
in
Louisville
towards
that
state
rule
of
87,
which
is
part
of
tier
three
and
figure
out.
If
State
time
can
be
purchased
with
their
Pension
funds,
they
do
have
a
pension.
So
we
want
to
figure
out
how
to
work
together.
Number
four
I
mentioned
the
building.
That's
priority
to
stay
there
and
I
quickly
want
to
talk
about
restructuring.
E
This
was
part
of
the
original
invitation,
so
DPA
will
we're
growing
by
22
percent.
So
we
have
to
adjust
to
reflect
that.
Our
agency
is
now
bigger.
We
have
to
restructure,
to
create
the
Louisville
office
and
to
increase
our
infrastructure,
as
I
said
earlier,
because
they
already
have
infrastructure,
Personnel
HR
it
all
those
we
do.
We
do
not
anticipate
that
we'll
need
additional
positions.
E
Just
you
know,
moving
the
tables
a
little
bit
so
on
trial,
we're
going
to
elevate
the
trial
division.
We
we
are
going
to
propose
to
elevate
the
trial
division,
which
is
currently
a
division
to
an
office
of
trial
services
with
two
or
three
divisions
to
provide
oversight
of
dpa's,
40
plus
trial
units.
Right
now
we
have
36,
but
we're
likely
to
create
several
separate
trial
units
for
Jefferson
County
to
accommodate
the
number
of
Staff.
E
They
have
we're
going
to
add
a
Louisville
Branch
to
our
existing
Branch
branches
and,
as
I
just
said,
we'll
create
multiple
work
units
within
Louisville
post-trial.
They
have
appellate
lawyers
in
Louisville
who
do
a
great
job.
We
will
create
a
new
appeals
section
for
their
existing
lawyers
to
to
they
to
keep
an
appeals
office
in
Louisville.
E
We
need
to
elevate
our
education
Branch
to
a
division,
is
currently
a
branch
and
and
emphasize
recruiting,
create
new
branches
to
reflect
the
education
needs
of
Louisville
staff.
They
get
all
their
education
locally.
Now
we
want
to
continue
that
to
a
certain
extent,
while
still
integrating
them
within
DPA
education
and
create
a
recruitment
Branch,
because
now
we
have
a
Statewide
system
recruiting
is
getting
harder
than
ever.
E
We
need
to
emphasize
that
more
finally,
I
think
this
is
finally
elevator
conflicts:
division
to
an
office
to
provide
support
for
conflict
cases
which
is
going
to
be
a
bigger
problem
in
Louisville
than
than
ever
they're
dealing
with
it
now.
So
it's
not
an
untried
road,
but
but
we
don't
provide
oversight
for
that
and
work
their
existing
contract
program
into
that
we're
going
to
need
a
bigger
central
office.
We
are
currently
looking
for
not
to
move
entirely
but
to
add
additional
space
to
to
our
current
location.
E
So
we'll
need
some
of
that
and
then
here's
where
I
come
back
to
protection
advocacy
real
quickly.
This
protection
advocacy
is
an
independent,
non-profit,
independent
division
within
DPA.
For
several
years,
protection,
advocacy
and
National
allies
have
asked
that
P
A
be
spun
out
of
state
government.
Kentucky
is
one
of
only
three
states
in
the
country.
Every
state
is
federally
mandated
to
have
a
protection
Advocacy
Office
Kentucky
is
one
of
only
three
states
that
sets
that
office
in
state
government.
E
Most
of
the
rest
states
have
it
as
an
independent
non-profit,
that
is,
that
accepts
grants
and
gets
Federal
money
to
to
fulfill
that
mission.
It's
been
recommended
for
several
years
to
spend
it
out.
I
have
not
talked
to
a
single
person
in
10
years.
That
has
said
that's
a
bad
idea
or
we
shouldn't
do
that,
but
yet
it
hasn't
happened.
We
raised
it
in
the
Bevin
Administration
and
it
moved
like
a
tortoise
and
didn't
get
done
before
the
administration
changes
and,
frankly,
we've
done
the
same
thing
with
the
current
beshear
Administration.
E
It's
everybody
says
yeah,
it's
a
good
idea,
but
it
doesn't
actually
move,
and
so
one
thing
I
would
recommend.
Is
that
the
legislature
look
at
this?
It
requires
executive
branch
agency
because
it's
a
Governor's
role
to
designate
the
protection
and
advocacy
system,
but
working
with
the
legislature
to
spend
that
out
of
state
government
would
be
something
and
that
would
give
us
space
because
p
a
currently
is
in
our
central
office,
and
so
if
they
are
out
of
our
central
office,
that
gives
us
the
space
we
need.
E
I
mean
we
love
them,
but
we
it
would
be
good
for
everybody
for
them
to
go
somewhere
else.
This
is
just
a
just
an
update
on
where
we
are
142
000
cases
Statewide
we
are
and
these
numbers
are
calculated
at
full
Staffing
we're
36
percent
over
national
standards
for
public
defender
offices.
E
E
One
Challenge,
if
you
maybe
you've,
been
involved
in
judiciary
or
Juvenile
Justice
oversight.
Commission,
you've
heard
DJJ
is
currently
placing
children
at
facilities
that
are
not
the
closest
facilities
to
court,
and
so
we've
got
juvenile
clients
that
are
far
away.
Hundreds
of
miles
away
to
see
clients
in
person
attorneys
often
have
to
spend
entire
Days
on
the
Road
just
to
see
one
or
two
clients
or
in
reality
they
just
don't
see
the
clients,
which
means
our
most
vulnerable.
Clients
are
getting
the
least
level
of
service
from
DPA.
E
This
is
a
challenge
we
Face
we're
being
involved
in
the
conversation
and
actually
Senator
schickel
just
raised
part
of
this
issue
with
us
right
before
this
meeting
we're
trying
to
improve
that
system.
But
this
is
a
challenge
we
face,
that
is
Raising
staffing
issues
and
then.
Secondly,
this
is
brand
new
Senate
Bill
90
created
the
behavioral
health
conditional
dismissal
program.
We've
been
talking
to
bhdid
about
some
of
the
problems
they're
having
with
with
getting
this
implemented,
and
they
need
this
position
called
barrier
relief.
E
I
mentioned
that
just
in
passing,
but
just
as
a
preview
of
some
conversations
that
may
happen
in
the
future.
This
just
things
I
think
eventually,
DPA
should
have
an
office
in
every
judicial
circuit.
Just
like
Commonwealth's
attorneys
do
right
now
we're
in
36
to
57.
I
need
authority
to
set
salaries
that
talked
about
this
without
being
bound
by
Personnel
18a,
at
least
for
attorneys,
if
not
all
employees,
and
then
I've
talked
with
and
chair
Petrie
he's
not
here
today,
but
I've
talked
with
him
in
the
past.
E
He
has
raised
the
possibility
of
getting
DPA
out
of
non-criminal
matters
like
involuntary
commitment
cases,
Tim's
law
cases
which
are
202a,
we're
we're
open
to
conversations
about
that
and
I'll
just
end
with
DPA
does
matter.
This
is
a
young
man
that
was
in
custody
for
a
long
time
had
a
child
while
he
was
in
custody,
went
to
jury
trial
was
completely
acquitted,
found
not
guilty.
E
He'll
never
get
those
months
of
his
life
back
when
he
was
in
jail
for
a
crime
he
didn't
commit,
but
this
is
indeed
one
of
dpa's
trial
law
lobbies
where
he
got
to
hold
his
baby
for
the
first
time
just
an
hour
after
he
was
found
not
guilty
by
a
jury.
E
We
we
serve
all
kinds
of
clients
in
your
communities.
It's
easy
to
think
of
criminal
defense
lawyers,
as
you
know,
obstructing
the
system
or
somehow
not
working
in
the
public
interest,
but
effective
criminal
defense
and
upholding
constitutional
rights
is
the
public
interest
and
DPA
lawyers
are
doing
it
every
day
and
I'll
skip
that.
So
I'm
open
to
any
questions
that
anyone
asks.
A
A
Recently,
retired
I
knew
so
Senator
Webb,
walk
in
I
believe
he
would
be
a
constituent
of
hers,
but
I've
always
been
really
impressed
at
Ron's
skill
as
a
trial
attorney
and
and
one
if
he
wasn't
one
of
the
best
he
he
had
to
be
right
up
there
in
your
house
office,
so
I
I
think
his
service
deserves
recognition.
I
do
like
the
idea
of
the
sign-on
bonuses.
I
think
that's
something
we
have
a
maybe
a
lot
of
room
to
work
on
and
and
and
find
out
a
way
to
do
that.
A
I
think
that
could
be
a
big
help.
Just
from
communication
from
members
of
the
legislature
and
just
emails
that
I've
received
I
get
the
sense.
There's
a
lot
of
heartburn
about
the
transition
in
in
Louisville
to
having
a
unified
system.
A
I
personally
was
not
aware
that
we
did
not
have
a
unified
system
until
this
issue
came
up.
I
just
want
to
go
on
the
records
to
stay
to
all
the
employees
in
Louisville
that
we
are
committed
to
making
this
happen
and
understand
that
anytime
there
has
change,
there's
always
going
to
be
concern,
but
I
believe
I
speak
for
all
the
members
of
the
let's.
A
I
could
I
can
understand
why
you
all
would
have
concern
about
contracts,
but
also
see
a
lot
of
promise
there,
and
particularly
in
areas
where
maybe
District
Court
matters
contempt
issues
in
Family
Court
other
issues
in
family
court
that
are
probably
not
the
most
pressing
issues
that
that
your
attorneys
are
involved
in
I'd
like
to
talk
to
you
all
more
about
that.
I
know
that
in
a
perfect
world
that
you
all
probably
would
not.
E
G
A
I
would
like
to
talk
to
you
all
more
about
the
contracts.
I
believe
there's
a
lot
of
opportunity
there
to
maybe
save
money
and
and
just
being
pragmatic
and
realistic
about
it.
I
believe
we're
going
to
have
to
utilize
them
somehow.
So
there
could
be
a
lot
of
savings
to
the
public.
I
guess.
My
question
is
what
what
areas
do
you
believe
that
contracts
may
work
best
in
and
what
what
are
some
of
the
pluses
of
using
contract
attorneys.
E
I'll
start
here,
while
the
microphone's
on
its
way,
I
think
we
have
always
had
a
good
relationship
with
private
attorneys
and
and
public
defenders
will
always
have
contract,
will
a
need
for
contracts.
Many
of
the
best
places
for
contracts
are
exactly
what
you're
talking
about
either
contempt
dockets
child
support,
because
a
lot
of
times,
as
you
know,
Mr
chairman
child
support,
dockets
aren't
even
contempt.
It's
just
hey.
Did
you
make
your
payments
and
it's
a
it's
a
very
short
court
appearance?
E
If
we
can
find
a
private
attorney,
that's
willing
to
do
that
for
a
certain
amount
of
money
right
now,
we're
being
forced
into
a
high
level
of
contracts,
and
so
the
kinds
of
things
you're
talking
about
we're
actually
doing
now,
not
by
choice.
We've
had
to
enter
into
those
contracts
and
we
do
start
at
District.
Court
we
start
at
Family
Court.
We
have
very
few
contracts
for
dockets
in
Circuit
Court,
simply
because
those
are
those
are
where
we
need
to
focus
our
dedicated
talent
and
I.
E
Think
that's
what
part
of
the
point
you're
making
so
I
we'd
be
happy
to
have
that
conversation.
We
have
good
relationships
with
lots
of
private
attorneys.
I
will
say
just
to
State
the
obvious.
E
Not
all
private
attorneys
are
created
equal
and
we
do
have
attorneys
covering
some
dockets
that
I'm
not
sure
are
providing
the
services
that
a
full-time,
completely
funded
public
defender's
office
would
be
providing,
and
so
there
is
some
service
challenge
in
some
parts
of
the
state
or
there
are
challenges,
and
but
ideally
we
would
have
a
a
partnership
with
private
private
Council,
as
we've
always
had
both
for
conflict
cases,
and
for
some
of
these
cases
that
you're
talking
about
which
are
are
less
maybe
more
time
consuming,
but
less
less
at
stake
for
the
clients
and
I'll
just
add.
E
E
I
Thank
you,
chair
and
I'll.
Be
brief.
I
have
just
a
few
specific
questions.
One
I
applaud
your
efforts
to.
I
Thank
you,
I'm,
sorry,
I
know,
I,
applaud
your
efforts
for
flexibility,
for
recruitment
retention
with
government
employees.
It's
hard
I,
don't
have
a
background,
particularly
in
law,
but
I
have
in
every
other
part
of
government,
and
it's
the
same
and
so
that
flexibility
for
compression
is
important.
I
did
not
realize
that
you
were
that
you
were
on
18a,
but
they
are
not
that's
critical
and
interesting.
I
E
Yes,
we
would
include
with
that
a
commitment
requirement
or
a
service
commitment,
probably
two
years
with
50
payback
if
they
leave
after
a
year
or
no
payback
if
they
stay
two
years,
that's
our
typical
way
of
structuring.
We
do
that
now
for
out-of-state
training.
If
we
pay
somebody
to
go
to
training,
we
have
that
same
provision.
Okay,.
I
E
They're
an
independent
division,
so
they
kind
of
run
their
own
ship.
So
so,
as
far
as
you
know,
my
time
and
agency
resources,
it's
it's
not
that
much
a
little
bit
HR
goes
towards
that,
but
the
big
issue
would
be
that
would
give
them
the
freedom
to
be
out
from
under
to
be
truly
independent,
not
quasi-independent,
but
also
our
our
space.
It
would
free
up
22
offices,
I
think
in
our
main
office
that
then
we
could
put
in
Louisville
related
employees.
I
That's
okay,
thank
you
and
then.
Lastly,
so
you
have
one
in
four
leaving
your
firm
to
go
to
prosecution
in
the
state.
The
other
three
are
going
somewhere
in
Louisville.
They
left
with
their
feet.
You
mentioned.
Is
that
because
of
money,
they
don't
be
state
employees.
Have
you
gotten
much
feedback
on
why
the
other
75
aren't
saying
they're
not
going
to
go
to
government
agency
outside
just
private
pay.
E
So
two
two
separate
issues
there
we'll
see
if
it
works,
two
separate
issues
for
non-level,
so
the
one
and
four
are
existing
DPA
employees.
H
E
Everybody
midpoint
with
our
existing
budget
plus
I
need
to
have
a
career
path
to
keep
for
people
to
to
stay,
and
so
a
lot
I
would
say
probably
50
out
of
the
four.
If
I
was
being
simplistic,
I'd
say
to
go
to
another
state
agency,
one
go
to
prosecutor,
one
goes
to
Private
Practice
and
then
in
Louisville
I've
I've
tried
to
get
as
much
information
I'm
trying
to
have
open
communication
with
with
people
there.
E
Many
don't
want
to
be
state
state
employees,
but
I
I,
don't
know
how
many
that
is,
but
some
don't
want
to
be
state
employees.
Some
are
just
just
don't
like
the
way
things
have
gone.
You
may
be
aware
that
that
the
staff
attorneys
in
Louisville
unionized
a
couple
years
ago,
that's
been
a
stressful
situation
for
all
involved
management
and
labor
side,
so
I.
If
there
was
one
predominant
reason,
people
are
leaving
I
think
that's
just
they're
tired.
I
Okay,
I
appreciate
all
that
and
burnout's
real.
The
the
contracts
are
a
wonderful
thing,
but
they
are
they're
meant
to
be
specialized
supplemental
when
you
need
something
at
one
time,
they're
not
to
be
to
remake
public
employees
and
keep
them.
It
doesn't
work
like
that.
So
I
appreciate
the
cycle.
It's
very
real,
especially
in
Professional
Services,
like
what
you're
doing
and
I
guess.
I
would
just
say
that,
based
on
what
you've
said
on
this,
on
the
state
side,
we
have
an
HR
policy
issue
that
we
can
work
on.
I
C
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
a
couple
of
things.
I
just
can't
help
but
say
that
it
amazes
me:
we
don't
learn
from
our
mistakes.
You
know
if
Louisville
wants
to
get.
You
know
turn
it
over
to
State
fine,
but
we
did
it
with
Juvenile
Justice.
It
was
a
disaster.
We
did
it
with
the
retirement
system.
It
was
a
disaster.
C
We
did
it
in
Northern
Kentucky
with
our
Juvenile
Justice
System
a
disaster,
and
here
we
go
again
but
I
don't
live
in
Louisville,
so
I'll
support,
whatever
Louisville
wants
to
do,
but
I'm
going
to
go
back
to
your
testimony
in
the
very
beginning,
because
you
know
Damon,
you've
done
a
great
job,
promoting
your
agency
and
do
a
great
job
with
what
you're
doing
I
couldn't
agree
with
you
more
that
criminal
defense
is
just
a
Bedrock
of
our
Constitution
and
our
criminal
justice
system
and
I.
C
Think
sometimes
we
forget,
because
it's
criticized
so
much
what
a
wonderful
Criminal
Justice
System.
We
have
in
the
United
States
things
that
aren't
found
anywhere
else
in
the
world
innocent
until
proven
guilty
trial
by
jewelry
and
right
to
council,
among
other
things,
but
you
have
in
my
mind,
there's
some
things
embedded
in
your
testimony
where
you
skipped
over
kind
of
what
how
the
system
is
set
up
and
this
you
know
your
agency
is
relatively
new.
As
you
know,
from
a
historical
standpoint
and
the
way
the
system
is
set
up,
is
you
you're
in
your
testimony?
C
You
make
the
kind
of
the
inference
that
we
have
prosecutors
when
we
have
public
defenders
and
they
all
should
be
equal
as
far
as
pay
and
funding
and
things
of
that
nature
and
I
challenge
that
whole
concept,
because
I
I
don't
think
it's
historically
accurate
in
the
way
the
system's
set
up.
As
you
know,
the
prosecutor's
officer,
the
Commonwealth
attorneys,
have
have
a
responsible
to
prosecute.
They
represent
the
people,
the
Commonwealth,
the
government,
but
traditionally
and
until
very
recently.
Well,
actually
still
is
we
forget
this.
The
responsibility
of
criminal
defense
is
with
the
defendant.
C
It's
not
with
the
government.
The
responsibility
of
criminal
defense
is
with
the
defendant,
not
with
the
government.
That's
been
that
way
with
the
Inception
of
a
constitution,
we
did
create
your
department
after
you
know,
and
to
make
sure
that
Indigent
and
I'll
say
that
Indigent
defendants
had
good
competent
defense
and
I
spent
a
lot
of
time
in
the
courtroom
and
I
can
tell
you
and.
C
That's
wonderful
I've
always
been
amazed
at
the
wonderful
job
that
the
criminal
that
the
public
defenders
do,
but
I've
also
been
to
some
ribbon
cuttings
of
opening
of
offices
and
things
like
that
and
there's
now.
This
expectation
and
you've
done
a
great
job.
Promoting
your
agency
and
I
congratulate
you
for
that.
C
But
we
have
a
situation
now
with
a
private
bar
is
almost
excluded
from
criminal
defense
work
and
we
have
one
very
prominent
criminal
defense
attorney
here
and
I
see
her
nodding
her
head,
but
I
think
that's
a
real
shame,
a
real
shame,
because
that-
and
you
kind
of
gloss
over
that
in
your
testimony.
But
that
is
the
way
the
system's
set
up
the
system's
not
set
up
the
criminal
defendants
and-
and
should
your
agency
sits
on
the
same
level
with
the
prosecutor's
office
financially,
because
the
roles
and
responsibilities
are
essentially
different.
C
I
just
think
it's
important
that
this
committee,
especially
new
members
of
this
committee,
maybe
that
don't
realize
that
this
is
you.
You
know
when
they
listen
to
your
testimony.
You
could
really,
if
you
didn't,
know
the
history
of
it.
You
could
think
well,
there's
a
real
inequity
here.
Well,
maybe
there
is
maybe
there
isn't
I
really
don't
see
it.
That
way.
E
Senator
I
appreciate
that
that
feedback
and
we've
always
appreciated
your
support,
and
you
have
been
very
supportive
of
us
as
an
agency.
I
I
disagree
with
that
interpretation
of
History
I
I
think
when
it
comes
to
the
right
to
council.
History
doesn't
start
in
1776.
It
starts
in
1962
when
Gideon
versus
Wainwright
came
out.
E
C
You
agree
with
that:
I
totally
I
totally
agree
with
that,
but
but
you're
making
a
huge
leap
from
that
to
what
you're
talking
about
now
and
I.
If
I
could
Mr
chairman
I'd
like
to
follow
up
with
one
statement,
then
I'll
conclude
please
proceed.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
I
agree
with
the
chairman
I,
think.
Contract
work
has
great
possibilities
and
I.
It
sounds
to
me,
like
you,
don't
see
it
that
way,
but
anything
we
can
do
to
get
the
private
bar
back
into
the
criminal
courtroom.
C
I
think
is
a
good
thing
and
I
know
that
might
create
some
logistical
problems
and
you
know
Ronald
Reagan
said
nothing
grows
like
a
government
agency
and
you've
done
a
heck
of
a
job
promoting
yours,
I
serve
on
the
Judiciary
Committee,
as
you
know,
and
you're
there
all
the
time
and
and
do
a
great
job,
but
I
I
agree
with
him.
C
That
I
think
we
need
to
look
at
this
contract
work
and
maybe
see
that
there's
a
possibility
that
we
can
think
think
outside
the
box
and
maybe
do
more
of
it
to
get
to
private
bar
more
involved.
You
know
I,
remember
in
the
old
days
and
I'm
sure
you
do
too,
where
the
private
bar
used
to
come
in
and
take
those
cases
on
a
rotating
basis,
and
those
were
some
great
dedicated
public
defenders.
E
There
certainly
were
effective
private
attorneys,
the
only
other
thing
I
would
say
on
that
is
on.
We
want
the
private
bar
to
be
successful
as
well,
because,
as
I
said,
we
while
we
may
have
differ
on
the
volume
of
contracts,
we
need
a
partnership
with
the
private,
the,
but
the
numbers
say
on
appointments,
because
we
don't
you
know
we
we
don't
have
our
picture
on
the
sides
of
buses.
E
If
you
think
about
those
worst
crimes,
murders,
rapes,
high
profile,
terrorism
related
things
practically
all
of
those
come
to
us,
because
people
who
are
charged
with
those
crimes
generally
can't
afford
the
fees
which
are
exorbitant
in
those
kinds
of
cases,
and
so
so
I
I
get
conceptually
that
the
prosecution
and
defense
may
not
be
similar
similarly
situated,
but
in
Practical
use.
E
They
are
the
the
cases
we're
in
the
case
with
the
prosecutor,
and
it
doesn't
make
sense
to
me
why
one
side
would
be
funded
better
than
the
other
side
when
we're
in
the
same
cases.
So
often.
F
Presentation,
I'm,
gonna
Echo
part
of
what.
F
I
know
that
several
members
during
session
had
a
lot
of
questions
about
the
implementation
of
House
Bill
568
I
was
one
of
them,
so
I
also
appreciate
you
answering
some
of
those
questions
that
I
had
I
I
am
fundamentally
interested
in
all
of
the
statistics
and
the
number
and
the
turnover
that
you
have
gone
over,
because
that,
of
course
impacts
your
ability
to
provide
the
representation
that
is
so
desperately
needed,
including
obviously
in
Jefferson
County,
where
I
represent
a
part.
So
I
wanted
to
ask
you
just
on
a
fundamental
level.
F
E
I
think
I
think
it's
going
to
definitely
have
an
impact
deposit.
There
are
a
lot
of
positive
impacts,
in
fact,
I.
Don't
think
I
can't
think
of
any
negative
impacts
when
it
comes
to
recruiting.
We
have
more
seats
to
fill,
but
those
seats
need
to
be
filled
before,
but
we
were
competing
with
the
Louisville
office.
Now
we're
have
a
unified
voice.
E
E
We
can
have
a
true
Statewide
system,
so
that's
going
to
improve,
recruiting
it'll,
create
new
sets
of
challenges
it
may,
in
the
long
run,
make
it
harder
for
us
to
recruit
in
Henderson
or
in
Paducah,
because
people
are
going
to
want
to
work
in
Louisville.
So
a
good
thing
for
Louisville
I
think
is
I.
Think
we
will
be
able
to
get
to
full
Staffing
in
Louisville
once
we
have
the
stability
and
the
financial
backing
to
have
the
Louisville
office.
E
But
overall
it's
going
to
be
a
very
positive
thing,
because
we're
going
to
be
able
to
go
all
over
the
country
and
say
anywhere:
you
want
to
be
in
Kentucky,
you
can
go
there.
We
have
Muhammad
Ali
museum,
we
have
Churchill
Downs,
we
have
so
many
great
things
out
of
Louisville,
but
also
the
rest
of
the
state
and
the
beauty
of
the
rest
of
Kentucky
to
sell.
E
That's
that's
what
we
sell
is
that
you
come
to
Kentucky,
you
want
to
hike,
you
want
to
go
to
the
lake
or
you
want
to
live
in
the
city.
We
got
it
all
we're
pitching
that
right
now
and
I
think
that's
going
to
help.
J
J
This
was
there
were
three
counties
that
were
not
in
the
in
the
Statewide
system
when
it
was
created
because
they
predated
the
Gideon
case.
That's
Louisville,
that's
Lexington
and
that's
Ashland
Ashland
was
put
was
brought
into
the
state
system
long
ago
about
12
15
years
ago.
The
Lexington
office
was
brought
into
the
state
system
happened
very
smoothly.
It's
been
done
very
well
would
note
that
all
of
the
former
public
public
Advocates
were
at
the
well.
J
Two
of
them
were
at
the
table
with
me
on
House,
Bill
568
and
said
it
had
always
been
the
intention
to
bring
everyone
into
the
system.
It's
now
time
to
bring
Louisville
into
the
system.
This,
the
the
Catalyst
to
this
this
this
round
was
the
Louisville
Metro
budget,
folks,
Republicans
and
Democrats.
Pushing
for
this
contacting
me
saying
that
this
needs
to
be
done
is
something
that
I've
wanted
to
do
since
I
worked
with
the
AOC
some
20
years
ago.
J
So
that's
the
history
of
this
that
those
three
offices
predated
the
Statewide
system
has
always
intended
to
come
in.
We've
used
kind
of
Lexington
as
the
model.
This
will
also
you
you
neglected
to
say
this
will
also
be
very
good
for
the
Louisville
employee,
as
they
will
make
more
money
because
we
pay
better
at
the
state
level
than
they
have
in
Louisville.
They'll
have
better
better
state
benefits,
so
that'll
be
a
better
attraction
and
retention
opportunity
for
for
the
city
of
Louisville.
J
It's
a
state
obligation,
I
know,
I,
know
what
senator
schickel
says
about
the
Department
of
Juvenile
Justice,
which
was
dumped
on
us
by
the
Bevin
Administration
in
about
you
know.
30
days.
Excuse
me
it
was
dumped
on
us
by
the
Louisville
by
by
the
city
of
Louisville,
in
about
30
days
to
the
Bevin
Administration.
This
has
given
us
about
an
18-month
roadway,
and
so
with
your
leadership
and
with
the
leadership
in
Louisville,
it'll,
get
done
and
I
think
very
well.
I
I
would
want
to
I.
J
Do
want
to
note,
because
I
know
that
some
employees
in
Louisville
might
be
concerned.
I
would
be
if
I
were
them.
J
This
is
going
to
help
their
standard
of
living
they're
going
to
make
more
money
they're
going
to
the
commitment
is
that
they're
gonna,
if
you're
in
you
know
courtroom
10
101,
then
that's
where
you're
going
to
be
going
the
day
after
the
the
merger,
if
you're
in
circuit
court
and
you're
in
Mitch,
Perry's
courtroom
on
a
case
Commonwealth
versus
Thompson
you're
going
to
be
in
Mitch
Perry's
courtroom
on
Commonwealth
versus
Thompson
the
next
day.
J
So
this
is
a
very
good
thing
for
our
local,
our
local
lawyers
and
and
I'm
happy
to
do
it
and
I'm
happy
to
say
that
that,
as
the
chairman
has
said,
that
we've
we,
we
established
our
commitment
to
making
this
thing
go
forward
in
a
in
a
very
effective
way.
So
I
don't
have
a
comment.
I
just
wanted
to
make
sure
this
is
an
important
thing.
I
want
to
stay
on
the
record
again
and
planting
my
flag.
This
is
extremely
important
to
me
and
I
know.
J
J
It's
going
to
happen
very
well
and
and
I'm
thoroughly
convinced
that
that
this
will
be
tremendously
beneficial
to
the
employees
in
our
important
office
in
Louisville
and
this
again
as
Senator
schickel
said,
this
is
crucial,
crucial
work
and
when
you
talk
to
prosecutors,
they
agree
that
the
the
most
important
thing
of
our
judicial
system
is
that
it's
an
adversary
process,
and
so
we
need
a
very
healthy
Judiciary.
Our
judges
aren't
paid
enough.
J
K
Okay,
but
yeah,
that's
my
goal.
You
know
I'm
proud
to
be
a
criminal.
Defense
attorney
always
have
been
even
in
those
bad
elections
where
they
say
all
these
nasty
things,
but
you
know
Casey
always
had
a
sticker
that
I've
still
got.
My
business
has
got
rights.
K
K
This
time
last
year,
I
had
that
contract
and
it's
still
under
contract
by
a
former
public
defender
there
I
saw
today,
but
I
had
that
contract
for
a
month.
While
we
got
a
lawyer
in
Ashland
well
that
month,
contract
turned
into
several
months
and
which
I
was
glad
to
do
because
I
started
my
practice.
K
I've
had
like
as
many
as
four
or
five
counties
at
one
time,
I
maintained
a
conflict
relationship
with
the
DPA,
because
I
I
like
to
know
what's
going
on
and
I'm
in
court,
all
over
the
state
and
and
I
see
what's
going
on
firsthand
and
you
know
workload
and
and
pay
workload
and
pay,
and
and
that's
just
it
breaks
down
to
pretty
simple
the
the
volume
of
these
cases,
the
time
spent
and
even
with
the
accommodation
we've
made
with
social
workers
and
other
adjustments
in
the
office
which
have
been
beneficial.
K
It's
not
enough
we're
having
a
hard
time
attracting
and
we're
having
a
hard
time
retaining
just
like
every
other
sector
and
I
say
we,
because
I
feel
that
close
to
the
DPA
and
I
do
as
a
contract
attorney
as
well.
I
think
Louisville
will
be
fine,
I
think
you
know
yeah.
Maybe
changes
is
sometimes
hard,
but
I
think
it's
going
to
be
fine
and
I.
K
Think
it's
going
to
be
an
asset
both
to
the
agency
and
to
the
individuals
in
that
office,
because
all
this
com,
you
know
the
most
important
thing-
is
quality
representation.
At
the
end
of
the
day,
and-
and
you
know,
I'm
a
contract
attorney
and
I've
got
36
years
of
trial
experience
and
you've
got
and
I
was
a
young
lawyer
and
got
trial
experience
through
that.
So
there's
a
benefit,
but
how
many
pro
the
private
bar
now
even
practice
even
try
cases.
K
The
DPA
you
know
we'll
take
it
does
what
needs
to
be
done
in
training
the
private
bar
and
in
interacting
and
forcing
prosecutors,
to
try
cases
and-
and
you
know,
that's
the
backbone
of
our
justice
system,
and
it
hurts
me
as
an
old
practitioner
to
see
the
lack
of
trials
that
we
have
today,
the
lack
of
trial,
expertise
and
experience
and
I'm
talking
to
judges
about
some
of
the
contract
situations
that
we
have
now
and
they're
far
from
perfect,
because
if
you've
got
a
the
rotation,
let's
say
family
court
or
child
cases,
you've
got
some
lawyers
that
make
it
their
lives.
K
Calling
to
do
this.
Some
of
them
were
gather
home
and
do
just
that.
You've
got
others
that
just
do
it
to
pay
the
bill
and
barely
meet
with
that
family
rarely
meet
with
that
child
and
and
it's
it's
no
different
in
the
criminal
defense,
Realm
and
nothing's
more
important
than
a
person's
Liberty
and
their
life.
So
we've
got
to
do
some
serious
inquiry
here
on
how
to
attract
and
how
to
retain
and
how
to
develop
members
of
the
bar
public
or
private.
Who
can
try
case
and
know
the
rules
and
and
defend
that
individual.
K
The
white
people
are
supposed
to
be
defended
under
the
United
States
Constitution
and
the
Kentucky
Constitution,
which
is
sometimes
better,
but
we've
just
you
know,
I
I
could
go
on
and
on,
but
I
appreciate
you
all
so
much
and
as
far
as
Brian
we're
losing
one
of
the
best.
You
know
if
I
ever
get
in
trouble
by
buying
Brian
hewlett's
on
my
speed,
dial
and
he's
one
of
my
best
friends
and
I
think
I've
offered
him
a
job,
but
anyway
you
know
it
it.
K
When
we
lose
he's,
got
a
few
good
years
left
in
him
now
and
we've
got
to
work
on
keeping
keeping
folks
like
that
and
attracting
and
developing
new
Brian
hewletts
for
the
private
and
the
public
Bar
so
and
how
we
do
that
I
think
we
know
that
it's
kind
of
a
question,
but
it's
workload
and
pay.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman.
D
Was
the
head
of
the
Boyd
County
office
before
it
came
to
DPA
and
with
the
transition
he
stayed
with
DPA
and
did
a
full
retirement
after
20
seven
years
I
mean
he
is.
He
is
an
example
of
the
success
that
can
happen
when
we
do
take
over
in
office.
L
Thank
you
and
I'm,
really
new
and
being
educated
with
these.
This
being
my
second
meeting
in
this
group,
so
I
appreciate
that
you
were
able
Damon
that
you
were
able
to
give
us
such
detailed
information
and
I
and
as
a
financial
advisor
I
love
that
it
seems
that
you've
taken
a
real
Financial
look
at
how
these
things
work
with
the
the
contract.
Then
you
don't
have
to
pay
that
66
percent
towards
the
pension.
L
So
when
you're
crunching
your
numbers,
is
there
a
case
to
have
more
contracts
versus
fewer
and
and
perhaps
that
that's
one
thought
and
then
the
other
piece
again
with
my
financial
advisor
background
is
if
they
were
able
to
emulate
a
pension
system
was
that
a
defined
benefit
versus
a
defined
contribution
and
now
we're
pivoting
them
into
a
defined
benefit
with
that
66
percent
cost
versus
the
7.3
percent
cost
or
seven
point,
but
I
love
that
you're
crunching,
the
numbers
and
those
numbers
are
astounding
in
and
I
believe.
L
E
A
couple
responses,
thank
you
senator
for
raising
some
important
issues.
There
I'm
a
I
have
a
math
background,
so
I
tend
to
think
through
numbers
all
the
time.
I
went
back
to
this
slide
just
because
of
the
important
number
in
the
upper
right
here.
E
435
dollars
is
our
cost
per
case
of
the
cases
we
handle
in-house.
That
includes
retirement.
That
includes
all
costs
of
state
government.
With
that
averages
out
to
about
435,
we
can't
contract
the
criminal
case
for
435
a
case.
It
ends
up
being
more
than
that.
So
that's
that
when
I
say
that
contracts
are
more
expensive,
that's
my
basis,
for
that
is
the
efficiencies
of
state
government,
make
it
cheaper
for
us
to
handle
them
in
in-house
than
contract,
even
though
you're
CR
you're
absolutely
correct.
E
All
we're
paying
is
a
gross
contract
amount,
we're
not
paying
retirement,
we're
not
paying
for
an
office
space.
Any
of
that,
but
it's
still
more
expensive
to
contract
out
and
look
forward
to
working
with
you
on
this
be
happy
to
talk
to
you
anytime,
about
any
of
the
numbers.
A
All
right,
I
believe:
that's
all
the
questions,
the
comments
we
have
from
the
members
on
this.
We
actually
had
a
really
good
discussion
on
this
today
and
it's
taken
up
quite
a
time,
but
it
is
very
important
subject.
So,
I,
don't
don't
regret
spending
the
time
on
this
I
appreciate
URL,
service
and
you're,
always
very
prepared
and
and
on
top
of
things,
I
look
forward
to
talking
to
you
more
and
the
interim
here
as
we
get
ready
for
next
session.
Thank
you
all
all
right.
Last
on
the
agenda.
A
A
Testimony
but
it
is
approaching
10
30..
Typically,
these
meetings
don't
last
more.
A
But
thanks
so
just
let's
try
to
hit
the
key
points
and
and
I'm
not
trying
to
cut
you
all
short
because
technology
in
the
courts
and
zoom
court
is
something
I'm
very
interested
in
and
and
would
like
to
find
out
a
way
to
to
make
it
even
better.
So
if
you
all
could
introduce
your
all
yourselves
and
please
proceed.
Thank.
G
Daily,
the
jail
the
Jailer
in
Campbell
County
noticed
me
yesterday
that
he
was
unable
to
join
us,
so
he
sends
his
regrets
and
in
the
interest
of
time
we
will
walk
through
this
pretty
quickly
and
merely
highlight
the
video
arraignment
video
conferencing
project
that
was
funded
with
about
10.6
million
dollars.
You
can
see
by
the
slide.
We
are
well
underway
and
hope
to
finish
the
expenditure
of
those
monies
in
March
of
2024.
G
G
When
we
entered
the
pandemic,
we
were
within
24
hours
required
to
turn
around
and
figure
out
how
to
do
remote
court.
So
we
started
with
our
first
generation
devices.
The
second
Generations
are
the
laptop
interfaces.
Those
went
out
pretty
quickly
currently
they're
installed
in
154
courtrooms,
but
we
right
behind
that
moved
on
with
generation
number
three
and
that's
the
tap
IP
Lenovo
bundle
that
allows
for
the
hybrid
court
experience
and,
as
you
know,
we
moved
from
remote
to
hybrid,
where
we
have
both
participants
in
court
and
participants,
not
in
court.
G
G
And
these
are
the
accomplishments
and
milestones
for
this
particular
project.
Again,
our
targeted
completion
date
is
April
of
2024.
I'm.
Currently,
the
43
courtrooms
in
February
that
were
not
video
capable
are
now
compliant
and
are
video
capable.
We
have
154
courtrooms
left
with
laptop
interfaces.
The
goals
is
to
move
those
to
either
the
tap
IP
bundle
that
which
is
the
third
generation
or
the
fourth
generation.
With
this
the
Jabs
eight
solution,
so
you
might
be
interested
to
know
that
the
refresh
cycle
for
the
jobs
equipment
is
seven
years.
G
So
as
these
projects
move
on
those
systems
age
out-
and
we
continually
are
looking
at
replacing
those
there'll-
be
252
courtrooms
remaining
to
receive
the
javs
8
installation
after
the
funding
expires
in
April
of
2024,
so
the
court
will
fund
about
3.2
million
per
year
to
get
all
courtrooms
up
to
that
Jabs.
Eight,
that's
the
ultimate
goal.
G
Part
of
this
project
has
been
collaborating
with
the
jailers
and
again
Jim
was
unable
to
be
here
today,
but
we
have
selected.
The
jailers
have
selected
a
Cisco
Hardware
device
for
video
arraignment.
We
completed
testing
and
reported
on
that
last
time.
We
were
here
in
February
to
this
point,
and
now
all
devices
have
been
ordered.
Licenses
will
be
ordered
just
in
time,
so
we'll
see
those
purchases
rolling
in,
as
we
begin
the
installation,
the
implementation
schedule
is
drafted,
we
anticipate
starting
rollout
this
month
to
those
jails.
G
G
This
is
what
the
Jailer
device
looks
like
the
one
on
the
right
that
has
the
pretty
colors
is
one
that
can
be
mounted
to
a
movable
platform.
A
cart.
If
you
will,
the
one
on
the
left
that
has
the
gray
box
is
actually
the
one
that's
mounted
most
of
the
jailers
have
opted
for.
The
mountain
Mount
mounted
variety,
obviously
for
reasons
that
they
can
appreciate
in
a
jail
situation,
but
some
of
them
do
want
the
mobile
one.
So
that's
the
one
on
the
right
foreign.
G
This,
although
I
think
it's
of
interest
to
our
public,
how
we
have
addressed
the
availability
of
interviews
for
our
public
folks
to
walk
through
online
to
prepare
documents
that
are
needed
for
court.
We
launched
this
program
last
year.
I
have
worked
closely
with
the
Fayette
legal
help
center
and
are
looking
to
expand
that
program
and
figuring
out
ways
to
do
that
with
local
government,
with
the
local
libraries
with
local
legal
aid
societies
Etc.
G
This
is
what
the
website
looks
like
for
the
kcoj,
so
you
can
see
that
the
legal
help
forms
are
posted
there,
but
are
also
going
to
be
available
in
all
120
courtrooms
by
what
we
call
the
use
of
public
workstations.
So
we
will
be
installing
those
public
workstations
as
part
of
the
funding
from
the
legislature,
but
these
are
the
srl
numbers
that
have
been
posted
to
date
again
on
the
right
side.
I
think,
the
last
time
you
asked
me
what
kind
of
cases
we
were
seeing
come
through.
G
G
G
We
have
put
that
live
in
several
counties,
including
Fayette
Fayette
has
the
physical
kiosk,
but
Fleming
Callaway
and
Nelson
have
a
retail
option,
which
means
people
can
go
to
a
retailer
in
their
area
and
pay
on
fines
and
costs.
Again,
it's
cash
only
transactions
for
our
unbanked
citizens
who
may
need
that
option.
The
other
option
is
obviously
ePay
has
been
available
for
some
time
now,
but
this
was
to
expand
those
services,
and
these
are
some
of
the
places
where
they
can
go
and
make
those
payments,
and
that's
pretty
much
it
for
us.
K
H
Yeah,
thank
you,
chairman
Flannery
and,
in
essence
of
time,
I'll,
as
best
said,
I'll
kind
of
go
through
these
fairly
quickly.
H
If
there's
any
questions
that
you
all
have
I
think
you
probably
got
the
slide
deck,
you
feel
free
to
give
me
a
call
or
email,
but
just
kind
of
an
overview
of
the
Department
of
Court
facilities.
We
are
three
different
divisions
in
that
department:
the
real
property
division,
Capital
Construction,
Division
and
court
security
division,
Capital
Construction,
is
in
charge
or
is
charged
with
overseeing
the
design
and
construction
and
financing
of
new
judicial
centers
throughout
the
state.
H
The
division
of
real
property
is
charged
with
overseeing
the
maintenance
of
an
operation
and
maintenance
of
Court
facilities
throughout
all
120
counties
in
the
state
of
Kentucky
and,
as
you
can
see,
I
wanted
to
point
out
this.
This
slide.
It's
particularly
important
to
me
with
those
duties
that
that
we
have
throughout
the
state
and
maintaining
the
court
facilities.
H
We
do
have
a
very
limited
staff
that
that
takes
care
of
those
we've
got
four
facilities:
coordinators
that
are
in
our
real
property
division
that
oversee
all
of
the
occupied
judicial
facilities
throughout
the
state
of
Kentucky
and
in
our
Capital
Construction
Division.
We
have
two
project
coordinators
that
that
take
care
of
all
of
those
projects
that
are
authorized
as
capital
construction
projects.
H
So,
just
real
quickly
on
this
krs-26a
does
Define
a
court
facility
as
a
land
owned
and
operated
by
the
county
for
use
by
the
court
of
justice,
and
part
of
that
statute
is
that
the
circuit
and
District
Court
shall
be
held
in
a
County
Courthouse
of
each
County
unless
otherwise
ordered
by
the
Supreme
Court.
H
H
So
if
kcoj
occupies
100
of
that
facility,
we
pay
a
hundred
percent
of
that
debt
service
for
that
facility.
Any
any
project
that
was
authorized
prior
to
2000
that
use
allowance
and
there's
no
Debt
Service
on
that
facility
that
use
allowance
is
the
proportionate
share
of
the
kcoj's
occupied
space.
Two
percent
of
that
total
Capital
Construction
cost.
H
So
operating
cost
they
are
utility
expenses,
janitorial,
Insurance,
preventative
maintenance,
any
normal
repair,
that's
under
2500
non-recurring
costs
are
any
major
repairs
that
we
have
that
are
over
twenty
five
hundred
dollars.
Those
are
paid
outside
of
the
the
County's
quarterly
payments
that
are
provided
to
the
county.
So
that
would
be
you
know
a
an
additional
cost
outside
of
that
operation
of
maintenance
amount.
H
So
some
unique
aspects
of
the
judicial
branch
projects
these
projects
are
owned
by
the
county
rather
than
the
Commonwealth.
The
projects
are
financed
by
the
county,
with
the
backing
of
the
Commonwealth
and
note
because
the
the
Commonwealth
agrees
to
pay
the
debt
service.
Those
projects
do
not
count
against
the
County's
Bond
obligation
or
debt
cert
debt
capacity
Appropriations
are
not
needed
until
Appropriations
are
not
needed
until
after
the
project
is
authorized
by
the
general
assembly.
H
H
So
just
a
a
flowchart
of
how
these
projects
work,
we
do
an
assessment
of
each
facility
to
see
what
the
greatest
needs
are.
We
we
completed
37
counties
starting
in
the
year
2020
until
2022
those
assessments
helped
us
determine.
You
know
what
those
rankings
are
for
the
for
the
the
projects
that
we
may
request
for
our
Capital
plan
that
those
assessments
were
done
by
a
third
party
outside
architect,
so
it
was
basically
a
criteria
that
we
helped
develop
that
they
grade
at
each
of
those
buildings.
H
On
at
that
point,
once
we
determine
what
our
Capital
plan
and
our
budget
request
is
going
to
be
an
mou
is-
is
signed
with
the
county.
We
asked
for
legislative
authorization
in
the
judicial
branch
budget
bill
if
that
project
is
authorized
by
the
general
assembly
formation
of
the
pdb
takes
place,
and
then
a
service
provider
is
acquired,
so
architect,
construction
manager.
If
the
board
chooses
to
go
that
way
and
then
also
purchase
of
a
site
for
the
project.
H
Then
land
acquisition
is
made,
the
design
will
start.
At
that
point
we
do
we
go
into
bidding
for
the
project
after
design
is
complete,
bonds
are
issued
after
we
have
a
total
cost
of
what
that
project
will
be
then,
the
construction
of
that
project
and
payment
of
The
Debt
Service
after
we
have
completed
the
construction
of
that
project.
H
This
is
a
timeline
of
the
the
process.
I
won't
go
through
all
of
this,
but,
as
you
can
see,
depending
upon
the
scope
of
the
work,
the
project
and
how
long
it
takes
to
acquire
land,
this
can
be
between
a
33
to
61
month
process
before
we
occupy
the
facility
and
then
The
Debt
Service
is
paid
for
20
to
25
years.
After
that,.
H
So,
just
a
status
report
on
what
current
projects
we
have
going
on
Capital
construction
projects,
Bath
County,
that
project
has
bit
out.
We
are
in
the
process
right
now
of
finalizing
the
the
contract
with
the
construction
manager.
The
total
cost
of
that
project
is
19.8
million
dollars.
We
anticipate
that
that
project
will
start
within
the
next
month
and
substantial
completion
in
May
of
2025.
H
H
H
We
are
going
before
the
the
the
court
facility
standards
committee
on
August
8th
of
this
year.
That
project
is
the
project.
Scope
is
58
329
square
feet
and
we
anticipate
the
substantial
completion
of
January
2027.
H
H
Clinton
County
this
this
one
will
also
go
before
the
court
facility
standards
committee
on
August
8th.
That
project
is
31,
177
square
feet
and
anticipated
completion
in
January
of
2026.
H
Crittenden
County.
We
are
getting
ready
to
go
out
to
bid
for
general
contractor
on
this
project.
This
is
twenty
three
thousand
seventy
six
square
feet.
We
anticipate
if
bids
come
back
as
within
the
the
authorized
use
allowance,
we
anticipate
the
substantial
completion
to
be
June
of
2025
on
this
project,
Jessamine
County
again
another
project.
This
is
in
Phase
B
design
development.
We
anticipate
going
out
to
bid
after
the
first
of
January
of
2024,
with
an
anticipated
substantial
completion
date
of
June
2026
on
this
one
Scott
County,
that's
69,
110
square
feet.
H
This
project
is
in
Phase
C.
We
anticipate
going
out
to
bid
in
October
of
this
year
with
a
substantial
completion
date
of
December
2025
on
this
project,
Madison
County,
Courthouse
renovation
and
addition
that
project
is
underway.
We
just
got
underway
last
month.
This
is
a
33
260
square
foot,
building
with
12
000
square
feet
of
that
being,
in
addition
to
the
existing
building
that
substantial
completion
date
will
be
December
of
2024.
H
Leslie
County
is
23
996
square
feet.
We
are
just
now
hired
an
architect
on
this
project
and
are
working
with
identifying
a
site,
a
potential
site
for
a
purchase.
We
anticipate
substantial
completion
of
November
2026
on
this
project
in
Graves
County.
We
have
just
hired
an
architect
on
this
project
as
well
and
will
be
having
a
public
hearing
for
land
acquisition
in
the
coming
month.
H
And
to
give
you
a
preview
of
our
our
projects
that
we
anticipate
being
in
our
budget
request
that
are
in
our
Capital
plan,
Housley
County
Courthouse,
as
you
can
see
from
these
pictures,
that
the
current
condition
of
this
per
this
building
is
in
pretty
rough
shape.
We
have
we
occupy
the
second
floor
of
this.
The
county
occupies
the
first
floor
of
this
courthouse.
So
a
lot
of
the
roof
leaks
mechanical
issues
we
address
directly
because
we're
on
the
second
floor.
H
H
The
the
second
project
for
our
budget
request
is
the
court
of
appeals
office.
The
AOC
has
leased
the
office
of
the
court
of
appeals
in
Frankfurt
for
30
30
plus
years
at
its
current
location
on
Democrat
Drive.
Now
the
current
square
footage
that
we
occupy.
There
is
eighteen
thousand
three
hundred
seventy
six
square
feet.
This
includes
space
for
the
staff
attorneys
Clerks.
H
H
Some
of
the
inadequacies
of
that
building
and
some
of
the
challenges
that
we've
had
to
face
over
the
last
few
years
is
the
landlord
has
been
unresponsive
to
repairs
that
building
has
basically
been
deteriorating
rapidly
over
the
last
two
to
three
years
because
of
roof
leaks
because
of
mechanical
issues
that
the
the
landlord,
even
though
we've
pushed
and
pushed
to
have
these
issues
addressed
and
have
you
know,
worked
with
the
landlord
to
to
get
some
of
these
done.
They
they
have
failed
to
do
that.
The
landlord
did
file
bankruptcy
on
this.
H
This
building
that
building
was
basically
turned
over
to
another,
basically
facility
maintenance
company
to
to
address,
but
at
that
time
you
know,
some
of
the
issues
were.
D
H
So
far
gone
that
that
we,
you
know,
decided
to
move
forward
with
another
lease
and
for
the
court
of
appeals,
an
emergency
lease
Chase
environmental
did
a
determination
of
you
know
the
fungal
growth
in
in
the
facility
because
of
the
water
issues.
H
There
were
five
offices
that
were
deemed
unsafe
levels
and
basically
made
a
recommendation
that
we'd
not
occupy
those
offices.
So
again
you
know
it's
unusable
space
that
we
were
you
know
paying
for
because
of
the
lease.
H
As
I
mentioned,
AOC
did
activate
an
emergency
leasing
procedure
due
to
the
unsafe,
mold
and
other
issues
related
to
the
facility,
and
we
will
be
moving
into
our
new
temporary
lease
space
on
August
of
2023
actually
next
week
that
new
lease
will
cost
377
375.88
annually,
and
this
is
an
emergency
fit
up
to
get
into
the
space
as
quickly
as
possible.
So
it
is
meeting
temporary
needs
as
we
move
forward.
H
Part
of
our
budget
request
will
be
asking
for
a
court
of
appeals
facility
to
be
constructed.
The
estimated
cost
of
that
facility
is
12
million
100
thousand
dollars.
The
approximate
size
is
17
000
square
feet.
We
are
still
defining
that
program.
H
The
site
will
be
a
judicial
branch,
a
property
that's
owned
by
the
judicial
branch
on
vandelay
Drive
property.
It's
right
in
front
adjacent
to
the
alc
central
office.
This
project
would
not
be
a
typical
judicial
branch
construction
project
financed
by
public
properties,
Corporation
bonds,
the
judicial
branch
request,
General
funds
for
this
project
and
just
an
overview
of
how
we
develop
the
the
rankings
for
our
Capital
plan.
F
H
Assessment
of
37
facilities
that
we
had
deemed
to
be
the
greatest
needs
they
have
completed
that
that
assessment
and
that
ranking
is,
is
in
place
now
the
assessment,
format
and
methodology,
as
you
can
see,
it's
based
on
age
of
the
facility,
structural
soundness,
security
requirements,
potential,
environmental
hazards,
building
code
and
ADA
compliance,
interior
and
exterior
quality
of
existing
core
facility
performance
and
life
cycle
of
the
mechanical
and
electrical
systems.
H
D
A
K
I'll
be
brief,
Minister
chairman,
thank
you
minor
director
day
OC,
and
thank
thank
God
for
Zoom
thank
God,
for
you
know
that
all
the
work
that
you
all
have
done
on
that,
but
I
have
always
had
thought
some
thoughts
about
video,
arraignments
and
video.
Anything
mandatory
with
video
I
want
the
option
as
a
practitioner
to
have
a
client
there
I
think,
especially
in
a
bond
proceeding,
video
arraignment,
it
can
be
somewhat
dehumanizing
I.
Think
it's
important
to
have
that
individual
to
have
my
contact
with
that
individual.
Sometimes
it's
the
first
con.
K
One
thing
that
Zoom
did
in
the
covered
protocols:
it
restricted
access
to
jails,
it's
restricted
access
to
my
clients,
either
through
scheduling
volume
and
some
of
those
jails
will
never
go
back
to
pre-covered
protocols.
So
we
have
an
access
issue
and
as
a
practitioner
who
practices
in
most
of
the
courthouses
that
you
just
put
up
there,
all
the
two
or
three.
K
Sometimes
it's
a
very
crucial
for
me
to
have
my
client
there
at
that
courthouse
now
for
a
lot
of
reasons,
and
we
go
back
to
Quality
representation
I'm,
not
that
crazy
about
you
know:
I'm
physically
conservative
I
want
to
save
money,
but
I
don't
want
to
do
it
at
the
expense
of
representation
and
the
preservation
of
rights
in
the
proceeding
on
and
access.
K
So
I'm
very
adamant
about
that.
I
think
it's
important
for
nonpr
non-lawyers
lawyers
that
don't
practice
criminal
defense
to
understand
that
part.
That
component
and
sometimes
in
saving
money.
We
sacrifice
people's
dignity,
their
opportunity
for
Bond
and
yeah
yeah,
but
I
want
the
I,
don't
want
to
mandate.
Zoom
video
appearances
I.
If
I
need
my
client,
there
I
want
to
be
a
mechanism
to
have
him
there.
So
that's
and
then
secondly
I'm
a
little
concerned
about
you,
know:
I
support
access
to
Justice.
K
My
son
worked
for
him,
but
in
in
the
trend
to
help
the
public
have
access
to
justice,
but
there
again
quality,
Justice
and
I'm
a
little
concerned
on
who's
walking
these
people
through
this
process,
who
is
actually
practicing
law
without
a
license,
because
you
know
and
the
concerns
that
we
have
criminalized
and
we
deal
with
in
the
bar
every
day,
I'm
a
little
concerned
about
the
future
you're
there
and
how
we
have
one
discussion
about,
including
and
preserving
the
private
bar.
And
then
we
have
a
discussion
about
exclusion
of
the
private
bar
I.
K
Think
that's
a
little
inconsistent
and
I
have
concerns
about
where
we're
going
with
that
I'm
all
about
helping
people,
because
you
know
it's
expensive
to
do
those
things
on
the
pie
chart.
But
you
know
there's
kind
of
a
joke
that
nobody
likes
a
will
kit
more
than
a
private
lawyer,
because
people
mess
them
up
and
it
leads
more
litigation.
So
you
know
you
do
you?
The
quality
representation
and
who's
practicing
along
without
a
license,
or
you
know,
I'd
like
to
hear
more
about
at
some
point.
Thank
you.
J
Hey
Danny
everyone
else,
I
got
a
question
for
you
Dan,
but
before
I
do
I
want
to
mention
that
just
Thompson's
in
the
audience
with
a
court
of
appeals,
and
thank
you
for
being
here.
We
we've
talked
about
this
arraignment
situation
since
Will
T
Scott
was
elected,
I
mean
it's
been
some
time
now,
I've
heard
at
least
20
presentations
on
that
thing,
I,
don't
know
why
we
just
can't
get
the
thing
done,
but
I
guess
it's
time
to
get
it
done.
J
I
would
note
that
the
best
thing
the
court
system
has
done
over
the
last
15
years
is
the
e-filing.
You
guys
are
Leaps
and
Bounds
better
than
Indiana,
which
I'm
also
an
Indian
lawyer
in
the
federal
system,
so
Kudos
on
that
my
question
Danny.
Is
this
Mr
Rhodes?
First
of
all,
thank
you
very
much
for
Odom
County
we're
moving
it
Forward
very
proud
of
that
project.
It
looks
great,
and
so
let's
keep
going
keep
the
pedal
to
the
metal
on
that.
J
My
question
is
this:
on
your
suggested:
Courthouse
construction
projects
in
the
next
few
years,
next
few
bienniums.
If,
if
one
of
them
has
a
score
of
let's
say,
34.6
and
the
other
one
has
a
score
of
34.6
once
34.66
134.68
137.98,
what
does
that
mean
and
then
what's
the
magnitude
of
that
difference,
so.
H
H
The
percentage
was
based
on
the
deficiency
of
those
facilities
so
where,
where
they
may
have
scored,
you
know
20
percent
or
20
on
the
courthouse
that
was
determined
by
that
that
grading
criteria,
so
the
as
you
mentioned
there
were
you
know
few
that
were
very
close
there
within
that
first
10.,
and
really
really,
you
know
splitting
hairs
between
the
needs
of
of
those
facilities,
but
with
that
criteria,
basically
the
the
percentages,
the
deficiencies
of
the
building-
so
you
know
100,
would
be
a
new
judicial.
H
J
H
J
Really
good
for
me
to
know
I'd
like
to
see
how
these
are
broken
down.
More
I
wouldn't
know
you
said
the
first
ten,
the
first
two
are
Leslie
and
Housley
and
they
look
to
be
Leaps
and
Bounds.
Their
needs
or
leaps
abounds
more
than
anybody
else's,
but
the
rest
of
them
all.
The
way
to
20.
number
10
by
the
way
is
numbered.
J
A
I
believe,
that's
all
the
questions
and
comments
from
the
members.
I
will
Echo
representative
nemus's
kind
of
comments
on
the
assessments.
I
would
like
to
talk
about
that
more
were,
and
we
need
to
adjourn
here
in
a
minute
and
also
look
forward
to
talking
to
AOC
staff
about
how
to
better
utilize
and
Implement
Zoom
Court
over
the
next
few
months.
I've
got
some
ideas
on
potential
legislation
to
bond
ways
to
utilize.
A
That
more
I
believe
provides
a
great
opportunity
for
the
public
at
large
to
to
be
able
to
have
access
to
the
courts,
and
maybe
it
doesn't
always
work
well
in
the
criminal
system,
but
for
civil
motion
hour,
family
court
and
and
in
many
ways
even
the
criminal
dockets
in
District
Court
I
think
that
it's
a
tool
that
we
can
utilize
save
money
and
and
find
a
way
to
serve
all
those
involved
in
the
Justice,
Center
and
I
was
also
going
to
recognize
judge.
A
Thompson
I
was
hoping
we
could
have
a
role
reversal
where
he
could
come
to
the
table
and
I
could
ask
him
really
tough
probing
questions,
but
maybe
I
can
arrange
that
later
in
the
year.
But
he
is
one
of
my
appellate
judges
and
someone
I
think
very
highly
of
and
I'm
glad
to
see
him
here
today,
but
I
appreciate
your
all's
presentation
and
this
time.
I'll
move
for
adjournment
meetings,
adjourned.