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From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on State Government (10-25-22)
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A
We'll
get
started
if
you
have
your
cell
phone
and
I
always
do
this
so
I
remind
myself
to
put
it
on
mute,
and
this
is
the
interim
joint
committee
on
state
government
and
I
will
chair
in
Robbie,
Mills
Senator
Mills
will
be
the
co-chair
and
represent
Miller
is
the
other
co-chair
secretary.
Please
call
the
road.
C
C
A
Here
so
first
off,
we
need
to
approve
the
minutes
of
the
September
27th
meeting.
Do
I,
hear
a
motion
second
and
any
objection,
so
the
minutes
of
September
27th
have
been
approved.
A
You
know
this
issue
we're
going
to
do
first.
Water,
floridization
fluoridation
is
something
I
used
to
think
was
a
conspiracy
and
I'm
not
convinced
either
way
right
now,
but
there
was
a
young
lady,
it's
sitting
at
the
table.
That
came
and
spoke,
and
she
made
a
compelling
case
that
this
is
something
we
should
continue
to
look
at,
and
then
we
got
two
well-respected
State
reps
at
the
table.
So
you
guys
introduce
yourselves
and
your
guests
and
the
floor
is
yours
to
start
talking
about
this
issue.
Thank.
D
E
Philip
Adkins
water
treatment,
plant
superintendent,
Morehead
utility
plant
board.
F
C
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I'm,
going
to
turn
this
over
here
in
a
minute
to
Our
Guest
I.
Just
as
you
all
listen
to
the
testimony
today,
I
want
everybody
to
keep
in
mind
the
the
bill
that
we've
prepared
does
not
is
not
a
bill
to
prohibit
the
use
of
fluoride
in
the
state
of
Kentucky.
C
It's
simply
a
bill
to
undo
an
unfunded
mandate
and
let
the
local
governing
bodies
that
that
produce
the
water
or
boards
in
some
cases
have
the
decision
and
make
the
decision
for
the
people
that
are
drinking
the
water
or
whether
or
not
they
want
fluoride
in
the
water
and
with
that
being
said,
I'm
going
to
turn
it
over
to
representative
Lawrence
for
a
few
quick
comments
and
then
to
our
guests
quick
comments.
He
emphasized
on
that
again.
C
My
name
is
William
Lawrence
when
Mark
had
come
to
me,
representative
Hart,
come
to
me
and
Cindy
had
come
to
me
about
the
bill.
Having
worked
in
the
water
and
wastewater
industry
for
the
last
10
years,
and
still
do
a
lot
of
contract
work
for
these
entities,
it
was
something
I
was
pretty
passionate
about
I.
Remember
when
I.
First
started
working
at
the
water
district
in
Mason,
County
and
walking
into
the
plant
changing
out
these
fluoride
tanks
began
to
make
me
raise
a
lot
of
questions
and
I'll
say
this.
C
After
doing
it
seeing
the
corrosion
that
it
causes
to
the
tools
to
the
lines
to
the
the
tanks,
the
very
tanks
that
it
comes
in
I
made
the
the
decision
not
to
allow
my
children.
I
have
three
kids
myself
and
I:
do
not
allow
my
kids
to
drink
tap
water
simply
because
of
the
fluoride
that
I've
seen
the
effects
of
it
in
the
plant.
So
that's
why
I
got
on
board
with
this
bill
and
I'm
here
today
to
support
them
in
any
way
that
I
can
and
look
forward
to
hearing
their
testimony.
E
All
right
first,
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
come
and
share
with
you
today.
The
Flora
that
we
feed
in
our
tap
water
in
this
state
and
in
this
country
is,
is
not
pharmaceutical
grade.
Fluoride,
it
is.
It
comes
in
the
form
of
either
hydrofluoric
acid,
which
is
what
my
utility
uses,
or
it
comes
as
sodium
fluoride.
In
either
case.
E
This
is
all
sourced,
either
here
in
the
U.S
or
or
from
China,
and
in
either
case
when
these
come
in
the
packaging
that
these
come
in,
come
with
Hazard
pictograms,
one
is
the
skull
and
crossbones.
You
know
for
acute
toxicity.
E
The
other
is
as
as
the
corrosive
pictogram.
One
of
the
documents
that
I
supplied
in
advance
to
the
committee
was
the
safety
data
sheet
for
from
the
the
manufacturer
that
we
Source
our
fluoride
from
if
you,
if
you
haven't
looked
over
that
I'd
just
recommend
you
maybe
check
that
out
sometime.
It
goes
on
for
several
pages
about
how
how
hazardous
this
is,
and
one
of
my
object
objections
to
to
feeding
it
is
the
fact
that
that
my
employees
and
I
is
the
exposure
hazards
to
it
in
2017
as
a
utility.
E
We
we
ceased
using
chlorine
gas
as
our
primary
disinfectant,
and
once
we
did
that,
the
the
fluorosilic
acid
that
we
feed
now
is
is
the
nastiest
most
hazardous
thing
that
we
feed
in
the
most
dangerous
thing
that
we
handle
at
the
at
the
water
plant,
and
it
really
is
nasty
stuff.
You
can
see
you
come
visit,
my
plant,
you
can
see
where,
where
spills
have
occurred
before
it
eats
holes
through
concrete
through
brick,
very
corrosive
to
Metals,
it
really
has
no
benefit
to
the
water
treatment
process.
E
I
would
feel
more
comfortable
about
feeding
it
if,
if
it
actually
improved
water
quality,
but
it
doesn't
quite
the
opposite,
it
actually
actually
works
against
us
a
little
bit
when,
when
fluoride
in
the
water
comes
into
contact
with
the
with
the
the
chlorine
that
we
feed
the
sodium
hypochlorite,
there's
a
an
exothermic
chemical
reaction
that
actually
happens
there
in
the
water
that
were
actually
some
of
that
chlorine
actually
reverts
back
to
sodium
or
back
to
Salt,
which
is
an
additional
demand,
which
means
we
have
to
feed
more
chlorine
to
overcome
that.
E
But
it
also
causes
scaling
inside
pipes.
I
know
this
personally,
because
a
little
over
a
month
ago,
we
had
to
dig
up
our
parking
lot
to
replace
a
a
chlorine
injection
line
that
had
become
completely
stopped
up
with
the
scaling,
so
it
there
are
some
chemistry
consequences
to
feeding
it
as
well
another
another
drawback
is
the
cost
and
it
is
an
unfunded
mandate.
E
The
other
document
that
I
provided
to
this
committee
ahead
of
today's
meeting
was
a
a
breakdown
of
what
it
cost
our
utility
last
year
to
feed,
fluoride
and
and
with
the
increases
in
chemicals
that
we're
seeing
right
now.
A
projected
cost
for
the
current
budget
year,
we'll
come
in
close
to
thirty
thousand
dollars
and
it
works
out
to
almost
10
percent
of
our
chemical
feed
budget
for
the
entire
year.
E
It's
a
good
bit
of
money
and
a
lot
of
money
that
we
would
like
to
put
in
other
areas
into
into
system
maintenance
and
repairs.
E
It's
not
really
the
true
cost,
though
a
feeding
fluoride,
because
of
the
reaction
it
has
with
other
chemicals.
It
is
a
strong
acid,
and
so
it
brings
down
the
pH
of
the
water,
which
means
that
we
have
to.
It
would
feed
more
of
our
sodium
hydroxide
to
increase
that
pH.
Then
we
ordinarily
would
have
to
do
it's
a
demand
on
the
chlorine.
It's
a
demand
on
the
the
sodium
permanganate
that
we
feed.
E
So
we
have
to
feed
more
of
those
chemicals
into
the
water
to
to
overcome
that,
and
all
these
are
objections
that
I
and
others
in
the
water
industry
have
defeating
fluoride,
but
the
one
that
that
sort
of
outweighs
all
of
them
to
me
and
others
that
I've
talked
to
are,
is
really
the
ethics
of
feeding
it,
because
it
serves
no
purpose
in
in
water
treatment
as
far
as
improving
water
quality,
it
actually
works
against
that
to
some
degree,
what
it
really
is
is
just
Mass
medication,
it's
a
one-size-fits-all
approach,
and
so
at
my
plant
every
day
we
are
medicating.
E
You
know
upwards
of
around
40
000
people,
and
we
do
that
Statewide
in
all
of
our
treatment
plants,
whether
whether
people
need
it
or
not
or
whether
they
want
it
or
not
in
their
water,
be
happy
to
answer
any
questions
later
on
that
you
may
have,
and
thank
you
for
your
time
today,.
D
I'd
like
to
acknowledge
for
the
record
that
were
posted
a
couple
letters
from
the
Kentucky
one
from
the
Kentucky
Public
Health
Association
another
from
a
group,
several
groups,
Kentucky
Dental
Association,
which
I'm
a
proud
member
of
as
well
as
Delta
Dental,
and
even
the
Louisville
Water
Company
anyway,
very
generalized
letters.
Talking
about
how
beneficial
water
fluoridation
has
been
as
a
public
health
measure
and
I'd
like
to
point
out
for
for
any
physicians
in
the
group.
I
know.
D
There's
a
senator
here,
he's
a
physician,
probably
familiar
with
the
Cochrane
reviews,
which
is
a
a
body
of
information,
that's
published
on
various
scientific
matters
and
the
most
recent
one
in
2015.
Regarding
water
fluoridation
points
out
and
I
quote,
there
is
very
little
contemporary
evidence
that
is
evaluated.
The
effectiveness
of
water
fluoridation
for
the
prevention
of
carries
cavities
and
goes
on
to
say
the
available
data
come
predominantly
from
studies
conducted
prior
to
1975..
D
So
there
there's
going
to
be
references
for
my
dental
colleagues,
perhaps
about
varying
reductions
in
dental
decay
rates
over
the
years
due
to
water
fluoridation.
If
I
could
draw
your
attention
to
the
slide
before
you,
it
shows
the
downward
Trend
starting
in
1975
of
the
of
tooth
decay
in
countries
without
water
fluoridation,
and
you
can
see
that
downward
trend
which
is
similar
to
the
downward
Trend.
We
see
in
countries
that
utilize
water
fluoridation
now
the
many
most
the
countries
in
in
Europe
do
not
fluoridate
their
water
supply.
D
There
are
a
couple
that
take
the
route
to
avoid
that
mass
medication
issue
without
informed
consent
of
putting
it
in
the
salt
and
leave
it
a
freedom
of
choice
for
the
individual
citizens
to
to
medicate
themselves
as
necessary,
perhaps
with
the
guidance
of
their
own
health
care
practitioners,
and
that's
what's
missing
in
a
lot
of
this.
This
whole
idea
of
of
the
informed
consent
issue.
D
Well
those
dentists,
like
myself
that,
like
two
years
ago,
in
the
hearing
that
we
had,
we,
we
had
a
bibliography
of
numerous
recent
studies
in
the
last
five
years,
showing
a
decrease
in
in
IQ
in
children
who
are
living
in
fluoridated
water
communities
and
the
the
these
studies
were
published
in
peer-reviewed
medical
scientific
journals.
D
Most
dentists
aren't
very
familiar
with
those
unless
they
really
look
hard,
and
these
studies
were
also
funded
by
NIH,
which
doesn't
make
a
habit
of
funding
poorly
designed
studies
and,
and
so
we've
got
this
alleged
benefit,
which
is
extremely
questionable,
even
though
all
these
authorities
recommended
and
then
on
the
other
hand,
we've
got
some
new
science.
That's
coming
forward,
calling
into
question
the
wisdom
of
exposing
particularly
children.
D
It's
it's
just
unconscionable,
so
I
urge
the
members
of
this
committee
to
to
take
this
into
consideration,
even
though
this
has
to
do
more
with
this
freedom
of
local
governments.
But
again,
let's
get
rid
of
this
mandate.
That
is
ignoring
the
precautionary
principle
that
those
of
us
in
health
care
should
always
have
in
the
Forefront
of
our
considerations
when
we
are
treating
our
patients
and
particularly
from
a
public
health
standpoint
in
which
we're
doing
this
Mass
medication
again
without
informed
consent.
D
The
other
study
that
I
included
some
graphs
in
were
relative
to
showing
that
in
Calgary
Canada,
where
they
stopped
fluoridating
the
water
supply
that
that
there
is
actually
an
increase
in
the
Decay
rate.
After
that
water
fluoridation
was
was
terminated.
Well,
the
slide
here
the
one
to
the
right
will
show
and
again
the
study
that
published
this
concern
that
there
was
an
increase
in
in
Decay
rates
when
fluoridation
was
stopped.
D
It
left
out
data
relative
to
what
was
going
on
before
the
cessation,
although
there
was
what
I'm
pointing
out
here
in
this
graph
is
a
subsequent
study
of
scientists
who
are
critical
of
the
flawed
study
that
purportedly
showed
a
decrease
or
I'm.
Sorry
purportedly
show
an
increase
in
tooth
decay
when
fluoridation
was
stopped
well,
that
rate
had
been
going
on
going
back
to.
D
If
you
look
at
the
survey
and
the
graph
for
the
far
left
side
2006,
it's
showing
a
lower
rate
of
Decay,
as
opposed
to
the
far
right,
you
see
the
upward
Trend
and
you
see
two
arrows.
One
is
a
city
of
Edmonton
Canada
that
that
did
not
stop
their
water
fluoridation,
whereas
in
Calgary
they
did.
But
you
see
in
both
an
upward
Trend.
D
The
Decay
rates
were
going
up
regardless
of
water
fluoridation,
regardless
of
whether
the
fluoridation
had
been
stopped
in
Calgary
and
that's
what
some
of
the
my
colleagues
will
will
raise
your
concern
and
doubts.
Perhaps
that,
oh,
my
gosh,
if
we
create
a
situation
which
we
allow
local
communities
to
stop
forwarding
their
water,
that
there's
going
to
be
a
problem
ain't,
so
so
I'd
like
to
stop
at
that
point
in
case.
There's
any
questions
for
any
of
us
here.
C
Thank
you,
Mr,
chair,
I,
appreciate
you
bringing
this
information
before
us.
I,
try
and
focus
my
decisions
on
evidence-based
decisions.
C
And
I'm
been
reading
through
some
of
the
material
here
and
some
things
that
concern
me
in
particular.
The
impacts
on
children
from
use
of
fluoride
I
believe
is
a
toxic
to
their
teeth.
Florosity
is
that
the
term
fluorosis.
C
I'm
also
reading
about
the
the
term
the
the
impacts
of
the
fluoride
use
on
things
like
ADHD,
yes,
loss
of
IQ
as
much
as
five
point
over
five
points.
The
step
one
study
that's
mentioned
here
shows
that
fluoride
has
a
greater
use
than
lead,
poisoning
or
preterm
birth.
Could
you
comment
a
little
bit
about
these
studies?
Sure
in
in
the
you
know,
we
we
always
want
to
know
who's
who's
got
the
most
credentials,
who's
behind
these
studies
that
I'm
referencing
and
what
are
their
credentials?
Yes,.
D
Well,
the
IQ
studies
I
think
are
the
most
concerning
and
in
fact,
last
last
time
when
I
testified
I
closed
with
this
statement.
Sure
teeth
are
important,
but
sore
thyroid,
glands,
kidneys,
liver
and
Brains.
Brains
cannot
be
repaired,
but
teeth
can
so
the
credentials
of
those
individuals,
their
PHD
scientists
at
various
institutions.
They're
typically
multi-centers
were
involved
with
with
with
those
studies,
and
there
are
numerous
Publications
and
again
these
were
in
peer-reviewed
journals
and
one
of
which
was
even
Jama,
Jama
Pediatrics
Journal
of
American
Medical,
Association
and
they're
editors.
D
When
the
paper
was
submitted,
they
were
they're
very
I,
guess
suspicious
at
first
as
to
what
are
we
dealing
with
here?
Everybody
knows
that
water
fluoridation
is,
is
the
greatest
thing
ever
and
here
they're.
Looking
at
this
data
and
and
after
the
peer
review
process
was
completed,
a
very
rigorous
process.
What
had
been
submitted
was
shown
to
be
a
very
good
science,
well-researched,
science
and,
and
the
editors
even
had
the
rare
instance
in
in
providing
an
editorial
in
that
journal
issue
that
pretty
much
called
into
question.
D
What
we've
always
thought
of
as
being
something
very,
very
helpful
to
our
population.
We
need
to
look
at
that,
look
at
it
again,
very
seriously
and
so
various
other
studies
you
know
concerning
the
ADHD
again
similar
credentialed
individuals
with
universities,
good
research,
good
quality
research
coming
out
of
those
universities
and
again
good
reputable
journals.
So
those
are
the
kind
of
things
that
I've
read
in
my
Dental
account.
You
know
people
come
to
me
and
say
you're,
a
dentist.
How
can
you
be
against
this?
I
got
to
hey
guys,
read
the
literature.
D
F
I
actually
have
a
comment
on
that
too.
If
it's
okay,
if
you're
looking
for
actual
names,
there
was
a
gentleman
by
the
name
of
Dr,
Bruce
lanphier
and
he
recently
gave
Federal
testimony
about
the
toxicity
effects
of
fluoride
available
at
levels
in
drinking
water,
and
that's
that's
important,
because
we
know
that
we
know
that
fluorine
is
toxic,
but
we've
been
told
for
decades
that
at
levels
in
drinking
water,
it's
safe
and
it's
effective,
so
Dr
Bruce
lampthier.
If
you
want
to
look
him
up,
he's
actually
instrumental
in
our
Global
policy
on
lead.
F
You
know
we
stopped
adding
lead
to
gasoline
and
paint
long
after
other
countries
did
and
he
was
sounding
the
alarms.
Then
Dr
Linda
Birnbaum.
She
has
also
made
Publications
she's
written
editorials
and
she
was
the
chief
of
the
NIH
for
years.
So,
if
you're
looking
for
names,
those
are
reputable
sources
as
well.
A
Sandy,
did
you
want
to
say
anything,
I
have
a
statement.
I
know.
One
thing
that
kind
of
triggered
me
on
this:
if
that's
the
right
word
triggered
is
Kentucky
is
only
one
of
13
states
that
have
this
man
mandatory
from
from
one
end
of
the
state
to
the
other.
The
entire
state
is
that
is
that
true,
that's.
F
True
one
in
13
states
that
require
fluoride
be
added
to
drinking
water.
There
are
other
states
who
do
they
have
different
types
of
regulations
on
their
books
like
if
a
community
is
going
to
add
it
or
take
it
away,
they
let
their
Public,
Health
departments,
know,
but
Kentucky
has
the
most
stringent
regulation
on
water
fluoridation
and
that's
why
we
have
99.8
percent
of
our
water
is
fluoridated
it's
something
like
for.
F
Every
all
water
system
shall
Elevate,
fluoride
and
drinking
water
that
serve
a
population
of
3000
or
more,
and
if
they
have
the
pumping
systems
and
mechanisms,
it's
1500
or
more,
it
is
required
by
the
state.
Local
governments
have
no
control
over
it,
and
so
what
our
bill
does-
and
we
actually
change
the
language
last
year
to
better
reflect
the
needs
of
our
local
of
our
water
producers.
F
I'm
I
live
in
Harrison
County,
we
buy
our
water
from
Cynthiana
water
I've
been
in
touch
with
Cynthiana
water,
so
we
wanted
to
make
sure
and
other
other
entities,
so
we
wanted
to
make
sure
that
we
knew
exactly
where
that
Authority
lied.
So
if
you
look
at
the
bill,
it
gives
the
authority
to
choose
optional
water
fluoridation
programs
to
be
decided
by
governing
bodies
of
water
producers.
F
It
just
takes
the
authority
away
from
the
state
you
guys
are
here
for
30
and
60
days,
whereas
so,
as
the
science
becomes
available,
we
just
have
to
wait
for
another
legislative
session
rather
than
having
these
conversations
at
home,
where
it's
closest
to
our
families.
A
F
Of
it
does
not,
this
would
actually
be
a
great
question
for
Phil
to
answer.
We've
talked
about
this
oftentimes
bottled
water
isn't
as
closely
regulated
as
tap
water.
I
would
prefer
to
drink
my
tap
water
at
home.
F
We
don't
because
we
filter
fluoride
out
of
it.
So
we
have
a
reverse
osmosis
filter
and
we
prefer
our
tap
water
because
of
how
closely
monitored
the
Purity
and
quality
is
bottled.
Water
is
oftentimes
from
a
tap
Source,
a
municipal
water
source.
You
can
read
on
the
back
of
it.
Sometimes
it
says
that
it
is
purified
by
reverse
osmosis.
Sometimes
it
doesn't.
There
are
a
lot
of
people
who
avoid
fluoride
in
their
drinking
water
by
drinking
bottled
water
and
I,
mean
long
term.
F
I,
don't
think
that's
the
answer
asking
people
to
to
purchase
their
own
water,
so
my
family,
we
still
shower
and
bathe
in
fluoridated
water.
We
flush
our
toilets
with
it.
We
wash
our
clothes
with
it,
so
my
community,
my
city,
is
paying
to
add
a
chemical
to
our
drinking
water
that
we
try
to
avoid
and
we
use
for
other
things.
So
I
think
that's
a
consideration
too.
When
you
think
about
this.
H
Blanton,
thank
you
Mr
chairman.
Thank
you
all
for
your
presentation.
I
apologize
for
my
tardiness
today.
This
is
a
great
approach
to
something
I
say
that
we're
we're
very
bad
at
in
in
government,
and
that
is,
we
tend
to
do
a
one
size
fits
all
across
this
state
and
different
communities.
Different
cities
have
different
needs
and
wants,
and
this
allows
them
to
have
control
themselves
at
each
local,
water
group
and
I.
Think
this
is
a
great
thing.
H
I
have
my
concerns
with
fluoride
as
well,
not
to
tell
my
age
but
I,
remember
in
elementary
school
they
used
to
make
us
come,
they
would
come
once
a
week
and
they
would
pump
bring
gallon
jugs
and
they'd.
Put
fluoride
in
a
cup
and
we'd
have
to
rinse
our
mouth,
and
we
were
told
specifically
do
not
swallow
this
spit
it
back
out
in
your
cup.
H
When
you
get
done
and
and
tasted
awful
I
mean
we
try
to
make
them
think
we
put
in
our
mouth
when
we
didn't,
but
that's
I'll
digress,
but
the
point
being
they
were
like,
don't
swallow,
but
now
we're
saying:
okay,
it's
safe
to
consume,
though
in
our
Waters
right
when
always
before
they
were
telling
us
not
to
consume
this,
and
that
was
before
Municipal
Water
become
in
my
area,
anyways
as
as
available,
as
is
today
and
then
to
the
bottled
water
issue.
H
H
You
were
talking
about
at
work,
you're,
going
to
see
the
corrosion
that
comes
from
Notting,
fluoride,
but
the
the
the
sodium
hydroxide
and
everything
else
is
put
into
our
water
system,
how
it
corrodes
the
inside
of
your
water
line,
you
probably
wouldn't
drink
from
the
tap.
If
you've
seen
what
the
inside
of
your
water
lines
look
like,
so
why
do
we
want
to
put
these
chemicals
in
our
bodies
and
so
I'm,
fully
supportive,
I?
Think
representative
Hart,
representative
Lawrence?
H
If
you
bring
this
piece,
I
assume
you
will
I
would
love
to
be
a
sponsor
in
allowing
the
local
water
companies
to
have
that
control
the
local
water
boards
as
to
whether
or
not
they
use
the
floor
Nation.
Thank
you.
G
Just
a
comment,
those
of
us
who
do
not
live
in
areas
where
you
know
we
can
buy
water,
we
just
drink.
Well:
water
I've
grew
up
in
the
country
drinking
well.
Water
I
didn't
go
to
the
dentist
until
after
I
graduated
high
school
and
I.
Think
those
of
us
who
have
grown
up
without
drinking
any
treated
water
have
fared
just
as
well.
I
I
Why
do
you
think
do
you
or
did
the
article
explain
why
the
countries
without
fluoride
fared,
just
as
well
or
also
trended
down,
is
the
first
question.
The
second
question
is
the
in
it
looks
like
2025.
Our
numbers
started
going
back
up
and
it
seems
it
doesn't
go
much
further
than
that.
But
why
did
we
go
back
up
if
we
were
treating
our
water
with
Florida
and
why
did
the
other
countries
follow
our
Trend
down.
D
J
D
D
Certain
types
of
bacteria
and
I've
there's
never
been
a
controlled
study
that
involved
looking
at
the
use
of
antibiotics,
particularly
when
they
were
introduced
back
in
the
50s
and
60s
and
and
continually
is
ramped
up
in
the
frequency
of
use
for
ear
infections,
all
kinds
of
things
in
in
children
and
the
impact
that
that
has
so
that's
just
an
example
of
one
variable.
D
The
other
one
is
is
the
use
of
fluoridated
toothpaste,
which
grew
tremendously
through
the
the
particularly
the
70s
and
80s
throughout
the
world,
and
there
have
been
studies
that
have
suggested
that,
indeed,
that
is
the
main
source.
In
fact,
there's
there's
been
arguments
it
used
to
be
back
in
the
60s
and
70s.
D
D
D
I
D
G
Thank
you,
Mr
chair
and
thank
you,
gentlemen
and
lady
for
being
here
for
for
this,
what
I
find
fascinating
topic
and
thanks
to
the
Reps
for
bringing
it
up?
Some
of
this
is
new
to
me,
but
one
thing:
that's
not
is
the
and
representative
Lenten
brought
this
up
too.
Is
you?
G
You
may
not
drink
water
out
of
a
a
line
that
you've
seen
what
the
lines
actually
look
like
when
they're
cut
open
as
a
firefighter
in
our
training,
they'd
show
us
a
six
inch
line
and
it
would
be
mostly
occluded.
You
know,
and
some
bigger
lines
are
not
like
this,
but
this
question
is
related
to
the
the
Water
Treatment
part
of
this,
and
that
is
as
far
as
the
residue
or
the
calcification
and
everything
that's
in
the
line.
G
Do
you
have
any
idea
what
the
percentage
of
that
blockage
is,
that
is
related
to
fluoride
I
mean
we
understood
when
we
were
trained
in
firefighting.
It
was
not
related
to
fluoride.
It
was
related
to
other
minerals
that
get
in
the
water
lines,
and
so
is
that,
like
a
large
percentage
of
you,
do
you
think
of
the
blockage.
E
You
know
I
I
really
don't
know
for
sure,
because
it
would
really
depend
on
each
individual
water
system
and
their
particular
water
chemistry.
It
would
just
be
again
that
that
chemical
reaction
that
would
form
the
salts
that
that
could
scale
up
wines
you
know,
is
that
that
does
happen
for
for
systems
that
feed
sodium,
hypochlorite
and
and
fluoride
as
well.
But
a
lot
of
that
depends
on
whether
whether
the
water
from
that
particular
system
is,
is
corrosive
in
nature
or
or
scale
forming
in
nature.
So
it's
not
wouldn't
necessarily
be
a
you
know.
E
G
Yes
and
I
agree
with
that,
and
as
the
as
Dr
Jack
has
pointed
out
that
there's
so
many
compounding
factors
that
could
come
into
really
a
lot
of
the
things
here.
But
if
I
may
Mr
chair
just
one
brief
question,
the
current
I
heard
that
we
have
13
states
that
currently
mandate
fluoride
treatment
in
in
our
water.
G
F
Things
that
are
rapidly
changing
as
this
data
comes
out,
so
some
laws
say
it's
population
based
kind
of
like
we
are
so
take
California.
For
example,
they
have
this
mandate
on
the
books,
as
their
population
grows,
I
want
to
say,
they're,
not
their
population
numbers,
ten
thousand,
so
water
systems
that
serve
10,
000
people
and
I
might
be
wrong.
There.
It's
been
a
while,
since
I've
looked
at
that
they
initiate
water
fluoridations.
So
there
are
some
cities
who
have
never
added
fluoride
to
their
water,
but
as
people
move
into
it,
they
begin
to.
F
So,
while
that's
happening,
though,
there
are
other
cities
across
our
nation
who
are
voting
to
take
fluoride
out
of
the
water
and
one
that
just
recently
like
in
the
last
few
weeks,
State
College
Pennsylvania.
They
just
stopped
adding
fluoride
to
their
water.
Their
City
commission
got
together,
they
evaluated
the
science,
they
had
an
engineer,
a
PhD,
their
mayor.
They
got
together,
they
looked
at
it
and
they
decided
that
it
wasn't
best
for
their
Community
anymore.
There's.
The
EPA
is
currently
on
federal
trial
about
their
regulation
of
this
practice.
F
They
actually
have
been
asked
to
lower
the
contaminant
level
of
fluoride
in
their
water
for
decades,
and
they
haven't
responded
time
and
again
so
they're
on
trial.
So
you
know
it's.
It's
changing
right
now,
there's
really
not
a
great
answer
for
that.
Some
systems
are
adding
it
based
on
their
older
laws.
Some
are
taking
it
away,
based
on
current
science.
A
F
K
I
was
going
to
ask
a
question
about
chlorine,
but
I
think
it
almost
got
answered,
so
I
may
not
have
an
actual
question,
but
I
just
want
to
call
out
kind
of
a
comment.
Thank
you
all
so
much
for
being
here,
because
this
is
a
fantastic
panel
and
the
information
is
just
a
great
collection
here,
I'm,
not
one
of
those
ones,
that
this
is
new
information.
As
a
general
theme,
I
I
was
buying
fluoride
free
toothpaste
before
they
sold
in
the
stores.
K
You
know
back
when
online
was
a
new
thing,
but
this
information
is
extremely
helpful
for
me
because
I
don't
know
all
these
details,
you
know
on
the
detail
side
of
things,
and
it
just
makes
a
very
compelling
case
that
not
only
addresses
the
fluoride
question
but
I
mean
a
lot
of
questions
as
I'm
thinking
about
okay,
the
definition
of
Public
Health.
When
there
are
pros
and
cons
you
know,
should
we
be
making
blanket
approaches
so
I
think
you're
on
a
fantastic
Trend.
K
I
know
I
co-sponsored
this
when
I
very
first
came
in
in
2021
in
the
Senate.
If
you
all
do
it
in
the
house
and
just
get
it
over
here
fast,
because
I'd
love
to
pass
this
this
year,
I
just
don't
think,
there's
a
reason
to
sit
around
forever
and
wait,
but
secondly,
I
also
will
mention
as
a
side
note:
I
don't
talk
about
it
a
whole
lot,
but
I
worked
with
my
dad
in
his
in
his
practice
for
several
years
and
one
of
the
things
that
I
actually
came
out
with.
K
At
one
point
we
were
doing
testing,
which
I
saw
very
various
times
in
patients,
but
at
one
point
I
showed
up
simultaneously
for
fluoride
and
chlorine
toxicity.
It
hadn't
been
any
swimming
pools.
I
hadn't
been
to
any
you
know,
trips.
You
might
have
been
exposed
to
more
weird
water
or
anything
like
that,
and
so
the
big
question
was:
where
do
I
get
all
this?
Fluoride
and
chlorine,
all
of
a
sudden
and
I
I
could
kind
of
get
the
fluoride
thing
from
water.
K
Maybe
but
the
chlorine
baffled
me
because
I
know
you
can
get
it
from
water,
but
I
was
like
how
did
I
get
more
now
than
later
or
than
before,
and
so
now
that
you've
mentioned,
if
we're
adding
more
chlorine,
to
try
to
offset
the
fluoride
we're
almost
compounding
our
problems,
so
I
think
the
fluoride
almost
would
be
the
hinges
where
the
door
could
swing
on
to
reduce
those
well
I'd,
say
fairly
unsafe
levels
of
chlorine
as
well.
It's
kind
of
a
two
birds
with
one
stone,
so
I
love
it
thanks.
C
L
You
Mr
chairman,
I,
appreciate
that
a
couple
of
questions
it's
based
on
how
the
draft
is
worded,
Mr,
Atkins
I,
know:
we've
just
talked
recently
about
Moorhead
and
building
a
new
plant
there
for
water
treatment
and
I.
E
I
suppose
that
would
that
would
depend
on
how
the
the
bill
passes.
I
believe.
The
way
it's
set
up
now
would
be
for
for
utility
boards
or
or
cities
governing
agencies
over
water
utilities
would
would
be
the
ones
to
make
that
determination.
E
I
would
even
be
okay
with
I
would
even
be
fine
with
a
ballot
referendum.
I
mean
you
know.
If,
if
the
majority
of
people
in
our
community
wanted
to
continue
to
have
fluoride
in
their
water,
then
that
takes
away
the
ethical
dilemma.
For
me,
a
ballot
referendum
for
eight
counties
might
be
kind
of
messy
I,
don't
know
how
that
how
that
would
happen,
but
my
understanding
is
the
way
the
the
bill
is
is
currently
set
up.
Is
that
it
would?
E
The
determination
would
be
made,
in
my
case,
by
by
the
board
that
governs
us
and,
and
maybe
some
input
from
city
council
as
well.
Yeah.
L
And
so
that's
my
point
is
I
mean
I
represent
Bath
County
who
would
be
buying
water
from
you
all
and
they
wouldn't
have
a
say
in
this
process.
It
would
be
decided
by
people
in
Moorhead
or
Rowan.
County
would
say
we
want
to
have
it
or
whatever
the
governing
board
is,
but
people
in
Bath
County
might
say
hey.
L
We
want
fluoride
in
our
water
and
well
too
bad,
because
they've
decided
something
different
they're,
not
a
big
enough
County
to
afford
their
own
water
supply
to
do
some
of
those
things,
and
so
I
know
it
sounds
like
it's
getting
down
to
the
really
local
level.
It
isn't
it's
just
being
transferred
to
another
large
organization
that
would
oversee
some
regions,
because
not
every
county
has
its
own
water
supply
to
make
this
determination,
and
so
I
would
warn
just
to
be
careful
of
that.
I
mean
I.
L
I've
pushed
a
lot
of
initiatives
here
for
tobacco
to
be
decided
at
a
very
local
level
and
summarily
rejected
by
the
general
assembly
people
saying
we're
not
going
to
do
that.
There's
lots
of
bills
and
thoughts
about
tetracarbons
in
underground
and
water
supply
that
people
use
it
poisons
people
causes
cancers.
We've
seen
Camp
Lejeune
recently
have
that
that
very
issue
people
say
we're
not
going
to
restrict
it,
because
that
we
use
it
for
cleaning
supplies
for
greasing
engines
and
different
things.
Those
are
supplies.
L
We
want
to
use
fertilizers
lots
of
things
that
can
poison
our
communities
and
poison.
Folks,
we
put
a
lot
of
restrictions
on
that.
I
think
is
a
great
idea,
but
if
that's
the
claim
for
this
lots
of
other
there's
lots
of
other
things
that
can
fit
underneath
this
I
mean
there's
things
on
Tobacco
that
I've
been
since
I've
gotten
into
office.
Here
that
I've
pushed
saying,
we
need
stricter
controls
over
tobacco
use.
Let
local
governments
decide
if
they
want
to
be
stricter
and
people
said
no,
no,
no,
no!
L
No,
we
want
a
Statewide
policy
and
that's
been
the
kind
of
the
the
topic
we've
had
at
hand.
So
my
concern
is
just
that
is.
If
we're
going
to
have
a
brand
new
plant
in
Moorhead,
eight
counties
directly
served,
but
only
one
County
gets
to
call
the
shot
for
everybody,
because
they're
the
ones
has
the
governing
oversight.
A
lot
of
folks
won't
have
a
say
in
this
process.
I
think
also
one
thing
I
want
to
also
the
doctor
and
I
was
looking
up
a
lot
of
the
commentary.
L
I
know
that
the
Harvard
study
that
I
saw
from
the
Cochrane
report
and
Harvard
referencing
I
think
it's
important
to
note.
The
deans
of
the
Harvard
School
of
Medicine
Harvard
School
of
Dental
Medicine
Harvard,
School
of
Public
Health
all
have
public
Express
or
support
fluoridation
American
Academy
of
Pediatrics
World
Health
Organization
American,
Medical
Association.
Why
do
you
think
those
folks
if
this,
if
the
data
is
so
clear
that
this
is
bad
for
us?
Why
would
all
those
medical
organizations
Nations,
including
Harvard,
who
had
these
studies
that
you've
claimed?
L
Okay,
I
see,
so
that's
the
that's.
That's
fine!
That's
the
testimony
is
that
Harvard
University,
the
dean's,
the
school
of
medicine,
all
those
folks
are
all
indoctrinated
and
they're
ignoring
data,
and
some
of
us
here
have
a
better
understanding.
That's
fine!
That's
a
it's!
An
opinion.
I
know,
there's
a
lot
of
people
in
the
medical
profession.
That
probably
would
disagree
with
that.
I.
L
Controversial
I
know:
there's
lots
because
I'm
reviewing
here,
studies
of
European
studies,
studies
done
in
Singapore
of
this
looking
at
it
saying
that
it
does
have
benefit
for
that
so
again
to
be
worthy
of
discussion.
It's
good
always
good
to
go
back
and
review
to
make
sure
that
we're
doing
things
the
right
way,
obviously
sometimes
doing
the
same
things
and
not
questioning
that
is
important.
D
The
inadequacy
of
the
data,
though,
and
yeah
there's
some
data
there,
but
if
you
look
at
it
look
at
the
way
those
studies
were
designed,
and
they
were
all
most
of
these
are
back
in
the
50s
60s
70s,
when
water
flordation
was
becoming
a
thing.
You
compare
that
to
the
way
science
is
done
today.
As
far
as
the
studies
there's
there's
no
comparison,
that's
what
I'm
trying
to
point
out
is
that
Cochrane
has
raised
that
as
a
legitimate
concern,
even
though
they
they
acknowledge.
D
L
The
details
sure
sure,
okay,
let's
a
few
useful
studies
for
backgrounds,
challenges
really
quickly.
2016
study
published
in
the
American
General
preventative
medicine,
National,
Resource,
Council,
2006,
review
of
Florida
and
drinking
water,
2009
paper
and
European
Archives
of
pediatric
dentistry
2014,
studying
the
American
Journal
of
Public
Health
2000
study,
seven
study
in
the
Journal
of
dental
research,
1996,
studying
the
Journal
of
Public
Health
industry.
All
supporting
these
issues
there's
a
lot
of
data
out
there.
That's
also
current
modern.
That
also
says
it
still
is
of
some
benefit
for
this
purpose.
That's
my
point.
So.
C
Mr
chairman
yeah
I'd,
like
to
make
one
comment
just
to
note:
Senator
Alvarado
brought
out
a
good
point.
Eight
counties
could
possibly
have
no
say
in
whether
or
not
they're
fluoridated
none
of
the
counties
have
a
say
right
now.
Our
bill
would
allow
the
governing
bodies,
that's
producing
the
water,
to
decide
how
to
decide
this
issue
for
themselves.
It
doesn't
say
that
they
are
the
soul,
so
they
can
take
input.
They
could
do
a
local
referendum.
They
could
do
a
number
of
things.
They
could
have
a
community
Forum
to
get
feedback
from
the
counties.
C
A
Right
we
got
thank
you,
representative
heart
Mary,
Ann,
Birch
and
Jonathan.
Rich
are
going
to
speak
for
15
minutes.
A
And
then
we
got
to
move
on.
We've
got
a
very
important
pilot
program
to
talk
about.
A
Yes,
ma'am
say
who
you
are,
who
you're
with
and
your
floor
is
yours
and
when
and
so
where
is
the
doctor
he's
on
there,
okay,
Dr
Rich?
Can
you
hear
us.
N
A
I
can
thank
you,
okay,
Miss
Birch
will
speak
and
then
you,
okay,
go.
C
J
Gotcha,
thank
you
good
afternoon.
My
name
is
Marianne.
Burch
I
am
representing
today
speaking
on
behalf
of
the
Kentucky
dental
hygienist
Association,
the
Professional
Organization,
representing
dental
hygienist,
as
a
dental
hygienist
who
practiced
for
42
years.
My
main
focus
was
prevention
of
dental
disease.
For
my
patients,
Community
water
fluoridation
has
been
a
very
cost
efficient
key
to
dental
decay.
Prevention.
J
Fluoride
is
monitored
daily
by
our
State
Department
of
Public
Health,
having
a
team
of
four
that
monitors
to
maintain
the
recommended
0.7
parts
per
million
I'm
here
to
advocate
for
the
dental
health
of
all
kentuckians,
but
especially
children
in
poor
communities
who
are
not
able
to
afford
dental
care
on
a
regular
basis.
Water
fluoridation
is
a
consistent
means
to
provide
prevention
of
dental
decay
for
them
without
fluoride
in
the
community
water
supply.
It's
been
proven
that
dental
decay
will
increase
in
2007
Juneau
Alaska
removed,
fluoride
from
their
water
supply.
J
J
We
cannot
afford
to
increase
the
dental
disease
both
economically
and
physically.
This
will
impact
our
poorer
communities,
especially
in
historically
vulnerable
populations
in
Eastern
Kentucky.
Many
that
being
a
one-third
overall
and
61
percent
of
children
are
covered
up
by
Medicaid,
which
will
increase
that
cost
significantly.
J
There
are
not
enough
dentists
to
provide
care
for
Medicaid
patients
already
because
of
the
low-imbursement
reimbursement
rate
prevention's.
The
best
answer.
Dental
disease
causes
children
to
miss
school
and
dental
pain
causes
them
to
be
distracted
when
they
are
present
in
the
classroom.
Community
water
fluoridation
has
been
a
safe,
reliable,
cost-effective,
preventive
measure
to
keep
teeth
strong
and
reduce
cavities
by
at
least
25
percent.
J
Our
Dental
team
includes
dentists,
dental
hygienist
and
dental
assistants
who
work
hard
each
day
to
make
citizens
of
Kentucky
as
healthy
as
possible
with
their
Dental
Care.
Please
consider
our
professional
advice
and
continue
to
provide
consistent,
fluoride
access
to
our
patients
in
the
community
Water
Supplies.
This
is
certainly
the
best
use
of
our
taxpayer
dollars
for
the
dental
health
of
our
communities.
Thank.
N
N
My
name
is
Dr
Jonathan
Rich
I'm
immediate
past
president
of
the
Kentucky
Dental
Association,
representing
the
Kentucky
Dental
Association,
and
the
oral
health
of
the
state
I've
been
a
general
dentist
practicing
in
Grant
County
for
the
past
20
years,
I
was
born
and
raised
in
Grant,
County
and
I'm.
A
third
generation
dentist
here
in
the
community
I'm
a
fellow
of
the
American
International
College,
and
our
American
and
the
International
College
of
Dentistry,
chairman
of
the
Northern
Kentucky
Health
District
and
I,
have
a
heart
for
serving
those
less
fortunate
volunteering
regularly
through
donated
Dental
Services.
N
This
combined
with
my
experience
treating
patients
of
all
ages.
It's
placed
me
in
a
position
to
understand
the
severity
and
depth
of
the
problem
of
dental
disease
in
our
community
and
in
my
beloved
state
I'm
here
to
speak
today.
Just
for
mandated
fluoride
fluoridization
of
water
in
our
state.
You
know,
as
dentists.
Personally,
we
have
been
occasionally
told
we're
self-serving.
You
know
we're
in
it
for
the
money
and
I
find
this
to
be
very,
very
false.
N
If
this
were
the
case,
I
would
not
be
speaking
here
with
you
today.
Removing
fluoride
from
our
water
source
would
only
serve
to
increase
cavities
in
the
lives
of
kentuckians
increasing
treatment
within
our
offices
and
his
dentist.
Our
patients,
oral
and
overall
health
is
our
top
priority
in
preventing
disease
before
it
starts,
is
our
number
one
goal:
water
fluoridation
is
considered
one
of
the
top
10
Public
Health
measures
in
the
20th
century.
By
some
measures
this
has
decreased
the
cost
of
dental
care
by
as
much
as
50
percent.
N
Even
at
the
most
conservative
estimates,
every
one
dollar
spent
on
water
fluoridation
yields
38
dollars
in
reduced
dental
cost.
The
pain
and
suffering
that
it
has
prevented
is
measurable.
The
single
Public
Health
measure
has
done
this.
This
single
Public
Health
measure
has
done
more
to
level
disparities
in
oral
health
than
any
other.
We've
come
a
long
way
since
the
inquisitive
Colorado
dentist
wanted
to
learn
about
the
brown
stains
on
his
patient's
teeth.
Who
were,
for
the
most
part
free
from
tooth
decay?
N
Today,
more
than
70
percent
of
the
water
supplies
in
the
U.S
are
optimally
fluoridated.
This
means
that
only
a
small
amount
of
fluoride
is
added
to
the
drinking
water
enough
to
help
prevent
tooth
decay
in
a
manner
safe
for
everyone.
In
the
early
years,
fluoride
was
thought
to
affect
only
developing
teeth.
We
now
know
that
there
is
a
systemic
as
well
as
a
topical
effect
benefiting
the
entire
population.
We
have
the
knowledge
and
we
have
the
technology
to
utilize
this
science
to
enhance
our
health,
especially
our
dental
health.
N
N
Not
only
is
fluoride
in
the
drinking
water,
but
it's
in
colas,
reconstituted
juices,
bottled
water
and
depending
on
where
it's
grown.
It's
even
in
tea.
The
amount
of
fluoride
in
drinking
water
is
calculated
with
consideration
of
all
these
items.
Some
wells
in
Kentucky
have
naturally
occurring
fluoride
Kentucky's
Water
Supplies
are
constantly
monitored
to
verify
safe
levels
for
our
communities.
N
This
condition
ranges
from
either
Light
stains
on
our
teeth
to
brown
stains
or
even
pitting,
of
the
an
animal
interesting
thing
about
people
with
dental
sclerosis.
They,
rather
they
have
decay
in
my
20
years
of
patient
care.
I've,
never
seen
really
dark
fitting
of
teeth,
nor
have
I
seen
that
the
pitting
of
the
enamel
sclerosis
affects
the
fluorosis
affects
the
developing
teeth.
23
percent
of
the
US
population
has
Dental
sclerosis,
a
number
which
seems
a
little
extreme
to
me
at
this
point,
but
most
of
it
is
very
mild
again.
N
N
Fluoride
and
toothpaste
is
often
considered
the
cause
of
fluorosis,
and
the
majority
of
that
with
children
are
because
young
children
are
using
the
toothpaste
without
supervision.
So
again
back
to
educating
our
parents
and
adults
on
proper
use,
while
standing
of
teeth
is
not
cosmetically
ideal
and
the
Rarity,
it
occurs,
the
opposite
effect
of
unsupervised
children
amassing
large
amounts
of
tooth
decay,
are
even
more
detrimental
and
potentially
deadly
to
the
child.
N
N
This
is
a
direct
quote
from
the
American
Academy
of
pediatric
dentistry
guidelines
for
fluoride.
It
is
supported
by
independent
research
from
the
American
Dental
Association,
the
U.S
Public
Health
Service,
the
United
Kingdom's
National
Institute
for
health
research
and
the
national
health
and
medical
research.
Council
of
Australia
Europe
is
actually
widely
fluoridated,
although
not
always
through
the
Water
Systems,
because
of
how
their
water
comes
to
them.
Fluoride
is
often
added
to
salt,
as
iodine
is
added
into
our
very
own
salts.
N
Here
in
the
United
States,
fluoride
has
also
added
to
milk
in
some
countries
in
Great,
Britain
and
Spain,
add
fluoride
to
their
water
supply.
I
stated
earlier
that
I
have
practiced
Dentistry
for
20
years,
I've
filled
crowned
root
canal
and
extracted
badly
broken
teeth
amongst
all
ages.
While
this
may
seem
enormous
or
exaggerated,
it
is
what
I
haven't
told
you
that
is
important.
N
My
patients
who
live
in
more
rural
areas
that
do
not
have
access
to
public
water
systems
and
rely
on
well
or
cistern
water,
as
well
as
those
who
only
drink
bottled
water,
demonstrate
a
higher
cavity
rate
than
those
who
have
access
to
public
water
and
consume
it.
Obviously,
this
is
not
a
scientific
study,
but
I
have
continued
to
see
a
difference
in
the
oral
health
of
patients
who
reside
in
fluoridated
areas.
N
In
addition
to
that,
since
the
pandemic,
We
are
continuing
and
there
is
evidence
through
our
Coalition
that
we
have
seen
an
increase
in
Decay
among
all
populations
based
on
changes
in
diet,
while
early
on
WE
Associated
higher
cavity
rates
with
lower
socioeconomic
persons.
This
is
not
the
case
anymore,
based
on
daily
habits,
as
times
have
improved
for
all
of
us
over
the
past
50
years.
I
believe
that
diet,
especially
the
ingestion
of
refined
sugars,
has
had
a
huge
impact
on
the
oral
health
of
kentuckians.
N
In
study
after
study,
we
have
been
shown
the
cost
Savings
in
dollars
that
water
fluoridation
has
afforded
our
citizens
even
in
small
communities.
I
recommend
to
you
studies
published
in
peer-reviewed
journals.
As
with
many
ideas
in
our
society,
everyone
can
find
a
forum
for
their
beliefs
and
it's
also
difficult
to
sort
through
all
of
this
information.
Peer-Reviewed
journals
give
us
some
protection
from
this
science
and
require
authors
to
State
the
shortcomings
of
their
research
tooth
decay
is
the
number
one
chronic
disease
of
American
General
children.
N
It
is
known
that
one
in
four
children
living
below
the
federal
poverty
level,
experience
untreated
tooth
decay,
leading
to
pain,
School
absences
and
difficulty,
and
concentration
and
learning
and
a
poor
personal
experience.
Forty
percent
of
Kentucky
children
are
on
Medicaid.
These
children
desperately
need
any
help
that
we
can
give
them
to
prevent
disease.
N
This
also
expands
to
all
patient
populations
that
can
be
realized
every
day
of
my
practice,
love
us
today
not
be
guilty
of
removing
from
our
Arsenal
one,
the
one
Public
Health
measure
that
has
the
ability
to
improve
the
lives
of
our
fellow
kentuckians,
perhaps
beyond
our
ability
to
measure
I.
Thank
you
very
much
for
your
time.
Thank.
A
You-
and
it
was
good
debate
I'm
sure,
we'll
be
revisiting
this
in
the
future
right
we've
got
to
move
on,
I
promise,
State
Board
of
Elections
one
hour,
so
thanks
everyone
that
participated,
Miss
Birch,
thank
you
and
Dr
Rich.
Thank
you.
A
A
A
A
A
Okay,
we
got
a
real
important
program,
getting
ready
to
come
up
and
we're
going
to
discuss,
discuss
it,
and
so
please,
at
the
at
the
table,
address
your
announce
yourself
and
the
floor
is
yours.
Thank
you,
foreign.
O
Members
of
the
committee-
it's
an
honor
to
be
here
with
you.
My
name
is
Jennifer
Morrell
I'm,
a
co-founder
of
an
organization
called
the
elections
group.
We
provide
support
to
State
and
local
election
officials,
but
I'm
here
today,
because
I
spent
about
10
years
running
local
elections
in
both
Utah
and
Colorado
I
was
instrumental
in
Colorado's
adoption
and
implementation
of
the
first
Statewide
risk
limiting
audit.
O
We
did
that
in
November
of
2017
and
after
that
audit
I
fielded
a
lot
of
phone
calls
from
other
states
and
other
officials
and
organizations
wanting
to
understand
how
risk
limiting
audits
worked,
how
they
could
Implement
them
in
their
own
jurisdictions
and
I
realized
that
there
was
a
gap.
There
were
the
academic.
O
There
was
the
academic
literature
that
folks
could
read,
but
there
really
wasn't
any
resource
or
guidance
documents
that
could
help
folks
and
so
I
decided
to
fill
that
that
Gap
over
the
years,
I've
authored
four
guides
around
risk
limiting
audits,
it's
called
The
Knowing.
It's
right
series
I,
provided
training
at
both
state
and
national
election
conferences
and
I've,
provided
advice
and
resource
resources
and
counsel
to
States,
just
like
Kentucky,
who
were
implementing
risk,
limiting
audits
or
piloting
risk,
limiting
audits.
O
So
I'm
going
to
give
you
about
a
15-minute
overview
on
Audits
and
risk
limiting
Audits
and
then
I'll
open
up
for
questions
so
I'm
actually
going
to
start
with
a
question
that
I
think
is
important
to
think
about
before
we
talk
about
the
specifics
of
an
rla,
and
that
is
why
do
we
audit
an
election?
What
do
we
want
out
of
an
election
audit?
O
So
why
risk
limiting
Audits
and
I'll
probably
refer
to
it
as
rla
risk?
Limiting
audits
is
a
mouthful
and
rla
is
nationally
recognized
as
a
reliable
method
to
validate
the
Integrity
of
your
voting
equipment,
verify
the
accuracy
of
your
results
and
detect
and
correct
outcome,
changing
errors
in
vote
tabulation
and
by
then
I
mean
did
the
winner
actually
win?
Do
we
have
a
way
to
validate
that,
and
it
also
is
an
efficient
way
to
audit.
We'll
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
that.
O
O
O
So
historically,
many
states
have
laws
that
require
what
we
refer
to
as
a
traditional
audit,
so
it
might
be
a
percentage,
fixed
percentage
of
precincts
or
voting
districts
or
machines
where
ballots
are
selected
and
hand
tolerate
and
compared
to
the
results.
What's
different
about
risk.
Limiting
audits
is
that
all
ballots
from
every
Precinct
every
machine
all
have
an
equally
likely
chance
of
being
selected
for
audit
and
that's
important
right
because
there's
an
issue
with
a
piece
of
equipment.
O
You
wouldn't
want
to
have
it
happening
in
in
a
Precinct
over
here
that
wasn't
selected
for
the
audit
and
also,
unlike
traditional
audits,
a
risk
limiting
audit
is
designed
to
escalate
to
additional
rounds
of
auditing
and
ultimately
a
full
hand
recount
if
discrepancies
are
discovered.
So
if
we
find
that
there's
an
issue,
we're
going
to
draw
an
additional
sample
size
and
we'll
keep
doing
that
until
we
meet
our
level
of
confidence.
O
Okay,
so
you
all
know
that,
because
you
either
were
interested
enough
in
the
benefits
of
risk,
limiting
audits
that
you
decided
to
ask
the
State
Board
of
Elections
in
law
to
do
a
pilot
this
year,
so
they
under
their
leadership,
a
working
group
was
formed.
I
got
to
be
participate
in
that,
along
with
a
number
of
counties
that
will
be
participating
in
the
pilot,
so
Anderson
County,
Fayette,
County,
Henderson,
County,
Johnson,
Kenton
and
Madison
counties.
O
In
addition
to
the
State
Board
of
Elections
staff,
we
have
a
member
of
the
Secretary
of
State's
office
participating
in
that
group
representatives
from
the
various
voting
systems
that
are
used
here
in
Kentucky,
then
former
Secretary
of
State
Trey
Grayson
foreign.
So
what
is
the
working
group
been
doing?
We've
been
meeting
since
the
beginning
of
this
year
and
we
started
first
with
the
goal
of
understanding,
different
rla
terms
and
I'm,
not
going
to
give
you
all
of
those.
O
Today
you
can
go
read
my
guides
if
you
want
to
really
dig
in,
but
a
few
that
are
important
to
understand.
First,
one
is
the
target
contest,
so
it's
that
Target
contest,
often
chosen
by
the
state
that
drives
the
sample
size
and
that
well
I'm
just
going
to
leave
it
at
that.
O
Next
one
is
the
risk
limit.
This
is
a
tricky
term
even
for
me
to
explain
at
times
so
the
risk
limit
is
that
maximum
possible
chance
that
your
audit
will
not
detect
and
correct
an
incorrect
election
outcome
and
that's
a
mouthful
it's
often
expressed
as
a
percentage.
So,
for
example,
if
the
risk
limit
is
set
at
five
percent,
that
means
there's
a
five
percent
chance
that
the
audit
would
not
detect
an
incorrect
outcome.
O
O
The
next
one
is
a
sample
size,
so
this
is
really
important.
This
is
the
number
of
ballots
that
are
going
to
be
randomly
selected
for
the
counties
to
review,
and
the
thing
that
I'll
share
with
you
here
is
that
inner
rla,
the
sample
size,
is
driven
by
the
margin
of
that
Target
contest.
So
the
closer
the
race
is
obviously
the
more
ballots.
O
We
want
to
look
at
to
feel
confident
about
the
outcome:
The
Wider,
the
margins
of
that
race,
the
fewer
we
can
examine
and
still
reach
that
level
of
confidence,
and
then,
as
a
working
group,
we
dove
into
the
different
methods
that
are
used
for
risk
limiting
audits.
So
sometimes
we
think
rla
is
a
singular
thing.
There
are
actually
a
variety
of
methods
that
can
be
used
depending
on
the
way
that
ballots
are
counted
and
the
type
of
Technology
that's
used
here
in
Kentucky,
the
working
group
decided
to
do
a
ballot
pulling
audit.
O
This
is
the
best
way
that
I
can
explain.
It
is
through
the
idea
of
jelly
beans
in
a
ballot
pulling
on
it.
We're
going
to
take
a
random
sample
of
those
ballots,
we're
going
to
hand
count
those
we're
going
to
be
looking
for
a
similar
or
greater
margin
in
our
sample
to
what
was
officially
reported
in
the
results.
O
Okay,
so
after
we
as
a
working
group,
felt
confident
about
some
of
the
terms
and
definitions,
we
started
thinking
about
the
role
of
ballot
organization,
ballot,
tracking
and
really
ballot
accounting,
and
this
is
sometimes
overlooked
when
we
talk
about
risk
limiting
Audits
and
audits
generally
of
our
election
system,
so
ballot
accounting
provides
a
way
to
consistently
and
accurately
record
the
number
of
ballots
in
your
possession
at
a
given
point
in
time
and
document
any
changes.
O
I,
probably
don't
need
to
tell
all
of
you
why
this
is
important,
but
it
ballot
accounting
and
by
that
I
mean
things
like
reconciliation
forms
chain
of
custody
forms.
They
really
become
the
foundation
of
our
audits
paper
trail,
and
so,
if
we
can't
feel
confident
about
those
it's
hard
to
feel
confident
about
the
audit,
it's
the
way
that
we
ensure
votes
have
not
been
dropped
or
lost,
or
added
as
a
result
of
human
error
or
some
failure
of
the
voting
equipment.
It
ensures
the
ballot
record
remains
complete
and
intact
from
the
moment.
O
Ballots
are
cast
all
the
way
through
the
audit,
and
it's
evidence
that
our
ballot
record
is
trustworthy,
and
this
is
really
important,
and
this
honestly
is
the
most
time
consuming
part
is
the
most
time
consuming.
Part
for
local
jurisdictions
is
they're
working
on
this
type
of
audit,
and
one
of
the
key
pieces
here
is
what
we
call
a
ballot
manifest.
O
But
the
important
thing
is:
it's
created,
independent
in
the
voting
system,
so
rlas
assume
we
cannot
trust
the
voting
system
and
we
need
a
way
to
independently
verify
the
number
of
ballots
that
have
been
scanned
and
counted
and
where
they're
located,
and
so
we
just
looked
closely
at
different
seals
and
labels,
and
things
like
that
to
sort
of
understand,
based
on
the
processes
and
procedures
used
in
the
pilot
counties.
O
So
one
thing
if
you
haven't
picked
up
on
it
already
when
we
talk
about
rlas,
there's
a
there's
quite
a
bit
of
math
that
gets
performed
and
part
of
that
is.
This
method
of
auditing
was
developed
by
a
statistician,
and
so
they
can
be
made
easier,
sometimes
with
software
in
in
terms
of
determining
the
sample
size,
randomly
selecting
the
ballots
for
audit
accounting
for
discrepancies
calculating.
O
If
that
risk
limit
has
been
met
for
our
pilot,
your
pilot
in
December
we're
gonna
use
a
pretty
simple
spreadsheet
and
I
really
applaud
the
State
Board
for
going
in
this
direction.
It's
simple
it's
free,
most
importantly,
it's
transparent,
so
all
of
those
math
formulas
and
calculations
won't
be
behind
source
code.
It
will
be
right
there
for
anybody
to
review
and
examine
so
I'm
really
excited
about
that.
O
When
they
get
ready
to
do,
the
audit
counties
will
individually
send
to
the
State
Board,
their
ballot
manifests
and
their
summary
results
report.
O
This
is
the
only
part
of
our
laser
anybody
gets
excited
about.
For
some
reason,
people
like
to
roll
dice,
but
in
order
to
achieve
our
random
sampling,
we
do
do
a
dice
roll
and
that's
just
to
ensure
that
it
truly
is
random
that
nobody
has
an
idea
ahead
of
time
or
can
game
the
system
in
any
way
in
terms
of
which
ballots
are
selected
for
audit.
O
Foreign
lists
for
we'll
refer
to
them
as
audit
boards
for
purposes
of
the
pilot.
This
will
probably
be
staff
members
from
the
county
that'll
indicate
where
which
ballots
need
to
be
retrieved
and
where
they
can
find
those
they'll
retrieve
those
they'll
sit
down.
They'll
tally.
O
Those
ballots,
they'll
come
up
with
results
for
each
Canada
in
the
contest
that's
been
selected
and
then
those
will
be
submitted
back
to
the
State
Board
they'll
plug
those
into
our
our
spreadsheet
here
and
be
compared
against
the
summary
results
to
determine
if
the
risk
limit
has
been
satisfied,
if
it
hasn't,
if
there
were
discrepancies
discovered,
then
an
additional
round
of
auditing
would
take
place
and
then
I
want
to
just
end
with
an
outline
of
some
of
the
goals
for
this
pilot.
So
it
is
a
pilot.
O
This
is
not
an
official
formal
audit.
The
goals
were
to
create
a
safe
environment
for
County
officials
to
have
a
hands-on
experience
to
learn
how
rlas
work
to
become
familiar
with
all
of
the
terms
and
definitions
and
procedures
of
an
rla
to
develop
or
help
develop
an
rla
method
that
works
in
Kentucky,
and
this
is
often
a
long-term
process.
A
Anybody
have
questions
representative
nemus,
yes,
thank
you.
I
think
this
looks
really
good.
I'm
excited
about
it
and
look
forward
to
the
results.
I
do
have
a
question.
Do
you
are
you
aware
of
the
recounts?
We've
had
this
past
primary
and
and
how
does
that
weave
in
together
with
this?
If
at
all,
and
what
is
your
comment
about
the
outcome
of
those
recounts.
O
It's
a
great
question:
I'll,
probably
skip
commenting
on
the
recounts
themselves,
but
I
think
as
we
mature
as
a
field
and
I
say
we
collectively
nationally
start
to
think
about
post-election
Audits,
and
especially
this
type
of
audit
that,
as
I
said,
if
there
are
issues
escalates
essentially
to
a
full
hand,
recount
so
I
think
in
the
future.
As
we
get
more
comfortable
with
it,
it
may
be
worth
re-looking
at
recount
laws
and
requirements.
O
And
maybe
just
just
to
add
to
make
sure
it's
clear
when
the
first
time
I
did
this
type
of
rla
in
Colorado
I
actually
had
five
recounts
of
my
own.
That
then
I
had
to
turn
around
here.
Do
we
we
had
examined
all
these
ballots
provided
evidence
that
the
outcome
was
correct,
then
had
it
be
by
law,
there
was
a
trigger
that
half
of
one
percent
had
to
go
back
and
recount
five
races,
and
so
it
felt
a
little
bit
like
gosh
we're
just
repeating
what
we
just
did
a
few
days
ago.
O
So
I
think
there's
certainly
an
opportunity
to
to
look
at
changing
recount
requirements.
G
Can
you
just
for
the
pilot
program
and
we're
implementing
this
program
this
this
coming
election
general
election
right?
What
is
it
One
race
in
a
Precinct,
Per
County,
or
what
exactly
will
be
counted.
P
Q
G
So
in
those
six
counties
will
be
a
total
ballot
count
of
the
six
counties.
The
precinct
random,
Precinct
or
just
give
us
give
us
a
little
details.
P
It
will
be,
it
will
be
done,
randomly
it'll
be
a
sample
from
those
like
Miss
Morrell,
said.
I
will
generate
that
and
give
it
to
each
County
based
on
how
many,
because
each
county
is
not
going
to
have
the
same
number
of
scanners.
As
you
know,
Kentucky
will
will
the
30-day
impounding
period
after
the
elections
each
of
those
every
ballot
will
still
be
in
the
scanners
locked
into
the
tubs
we'll
actually
use
those.
You
saw
the
picture
of
the
containers
on
the
Miss
morel's
presentation.
K
You
have
a
few
questions
on
some
specifics
here
on
page
number,
14
or
slide
number
14
whatever
this
is.
It
was
talking
about
the
ballot
manifest
and
making
your
spreadsheet.
You
know
determining
where
they're
located
and
so
forth,
and
you
said
we're
going
to
assume
that
we
can't
trust
the
machine.
So
we
have
to
make
it
separate
from
all
of
that.
K
Then
I
didn't
hear
anything
on
how
we
get
those
numbers,
because
right
now
at
least
my
understanding
is
you
have
you
know
how
many
ballots
did
we
hand
out,
but
we
don't
actually
track
which
machines
those
got
put
into,
because
the
machines
themselves
have
their
little
tracker
counter
on
them.
But
if
we're
not
trusting
the
machine
counter,
then
how
are
we
getting
that
ballot
manifest
created.
O
Yeah,
that's
a
great
question.
I
appreciate
that,
so
there
are
a
number
of
different
ways
that
we
can
do
that
verification.
One
way
would
be
to
take
all
of
those
ballots
and
and
hand
count
them
right,
piece
count.
So
I,
I
piece
count,
say:
I
have
a
hundred
ballots
in
this
container.
Another
way
would
be
to
verify.
So
if
you
are
familiar
with
the
reconciliation
forms
that
might
be
used
to
verify,
we
checked
in
100
voters,
our
machines
showed
we
scanned
a
hundred
ballots.
K
So
you're
saying
we
wouldn't
necessarily
maybe
know
for
sure
how
our
ballot
manifest
is
going
to
look
before
we.
Unless
we
did
the
Assumption
method,
you
could
technically
like
cut
the
seal,
pull
them
out,
count
the
total
ballots
and
say:
oh
well,
there's
a
hundred
so
that
count.
But
then
we
don't
know
I
I
mean
I'm
just
trying
to
figure
out.
It's
almost
like
a
cart
and
a
horse.
O
Thing
right,
so
the
ballot
manifest
gets
created
after
the
ballots
have
been
scanned.
After
all,
those
containers
have
returned
back
to
the
County
facility,
part
of
that
and
I
I
apologize
for
leaving
out
some
of
the
details
includes
things
like
verifying
the
seals.
The
security
seals
are
on
there
to
ensure
they
haven't
been
tampered
all
the
normal
things
that
they
would
do
in
checking
in
those
containers.
O
Some
in
fact
will
have
some
sort
of
label
or
indicator,
giving
that
container
an
identification
number
and
then
that
total
count
and
and
those
numbers
from
that
container
labeling
system
or
organization
system
then
get
transferred
to
the
ballot
manifest
and
we
actually
draw
the
random
sample
from
the
ballot
manifest,
and
so
that's
important,
because
we've
had
some
sort
of
human
verification
by
the
local
authority.
Of
that
total
quantity.
We're
relying
on
that
versus
relying
on
some
sort
of
report
or
output
from
the
voting
system
of
what
that
total
quantity
should
be.
K
Mr
chairman
I
have
follow-up
yes,
okay,
I'm
on
page
16,
now
and
I,
either.
A
K
K
O
The
and
these
are
just
examples-
this
may
not
be
indicative
in
any
way
of
the
labeling
or
batch
tracking
forms
used
in
the
counties
here.
In
this
particular
example,
this
is
showing
a
batch
tracking
form
for
absentee
ballots,
and
so
it
indicates
that
we
started
with
a
hundred
we
removed
three.
Perhaps
they
were
damaged
or
needed
to
go
to
the
duplication
board
and
we
now
have
98,
and
so
it's
that
98
that
number
that's
getting
transferred
to
the
ballot
manifest.
K
My
question
is:
are
we
talking
about
adding
or
using
like
a
serial
number
system,
or
how
do
we
have
these
ballots
numbered
to
be
able
to
tell
like
I
mean
you're,
just
I
mean
ballots
in
a
machine?
Are
a
giant
mess,
I
mean.
O
O
Out
they
are
a
mess,
so
there
isn't
any
sorting
when
they
get
those
containers
back
really.
The
only
thing
they'll
do
is
make
sure
that
they're
all
in
a
neat
stack
and
face
up
again
I've.
Given
you
really
simplistic
sort
of
examples
here
that
I've
used
in
a
Hands-On
demo
I've
done
before.
But
if
we
look
at,
let's
take
the
second
row
on
the
left
so
container
a
scanner,
one
batch
number
two
ballot
number
four
right.
So
in
that
example,
I'm
going
to
go
to
The
Container,
that's
labeled
a
most
likely
here.
O
We
actually
won't
have
a
scanner
ID,
but
it'll
be
rather
a
batch,
ID,
potentially
I'm,
going
to
find
batch
number
two
and
I'm
going
to
count
down
actually
one
two:
three
four
and
I'm
going
to
pull
out
the
fourth
ballot.
Now
this
is
a
really
simple
example,
most
likely
or
it
is
possible
or
likely
that
we
could
have
a
batch
that
has
several
hundred
ballots
in
it.
O
M
I
may
need
a
little
bit
higher
level.
Understanding
before
I
can
understand
the
details.
Okay,
if
from
the
board
of
election
standpoint,
if
the
pilot
goes
well,
what's
the
next
step,
I'm
trying
to
understand
is
this
going
to
be?
Is
this
going
to
replace
something
you
do
now
or
is
this
a
new
thing?
You
want
legislation
to
say
every
Board
of
election
has
to
do
a
risk,
limiting
audit
or
any
race.
That's
under
five
percent
margin
has
to
have
a
risk.
Tell
me
where
we're
headed
with
this.
P
After
this
pilot
program,
we'll
take
the
we'll
take
the
results,
compile
a
report
and
we'll
provide
it
to
the
general
assembly
legislation
would
guide
us
in
that
way
again.
We
you
make
up.
We
may
decide
that
maybe
we
need
another
year
to
do
another
pilot,
but
that'll
be
in
your
all
in
in
your
hands
as
far
as
legislation
on
what
you,
which
way
you
guide
us
in
that
from
the
reporting
that
we
give
you.
M
M
Do
you
think
you're
going
to
require
every
Board
of
election
County
Board
of
election
to
do
a
risk
limiting
audit,
or
is
it
all
Races
under
5
or
0.5
percent?
Where
do
you
think
you're
going
to
head
after
you
prove
this
because
I
I,
like
I'm
I,
was
in
a
younger
life
a
CPA
and
did
auditing
and
and
confidence
levels
I'm
very
confident
with
that,
but
are
comfortable
with
that.
But
just
where
are
you
headed.
P
O
Yeah,
so
I
think
we
want.
Oh,
let
me
back
up
just
a
minute.
Sorry,
ideally
you
want
to
have
a
race
or
contest.
That's
on
every
ballad,
if
you're
going
to
do
this
Statewide,
so
really
we're
talking
about
state
or
federal
contests
that
would
be
subject
to
to
auditing,
or
at
least
be
the
target
race
that
we
audit.
So
in
order
to
do
that,
in
order
to
feel
confident
about
making
a
determination
on
the
outcome
of
that
state
or
federal
race,
we
really
want
to
examine
all
the
ballots
from
all
the
counties
that
participated.
O
So
in
that
way
it's
kind
of
an
all
or
nothing.
There
are
some
states,
so
Ohio,
for
example,
makes
risk
limiting
audits,
an
option,
there's
one
County
in
Ohio
that
does
that
they
can
only
audit
races
that
are
wholly
included
in
their
County,
so
that
limits
them
to
just
auditing
County
races.
If
we
go
back
to
which
race
that
is,
there
are
a
number
of
factors
that
you
can
consider.
There
are
states
that
have
put
that
into
usually
administrative
rule
making
not
into
statute.
O
Maybe
things
like
looking
at
races
that
are
highly
contested,
races
that
are
close.
You
may
give
some
consideration
to
Geographic
proximity,
so
there
are
some
variables
that
the
state
board
can
consider
when
making
a
determination
of
what
that
Target
contest
would
be,
and
often
it's
something
that
might
be
made.
There
are
some
states
that
choose
to
make
that
determination
ahead
of
time
so
that
they're
not
biased
by
the
outcome.
So
there
are
different
approaches
to
that.
Okay,.
A
Thank
you,
Senator
Mills,.
C
So
I
think
I'm
kind
of
like
represent
Miller
here
I've
got
to
get
a
little
wider
understanding
of
this.
So
is
the
audit
actually
done
on
site
at
each
County?
It
does
not
require
any
kind
of
mailing
back
and
forth
between
the
Board
of
Elections
or
anything
of
that
nature
and
then
also
in
the
past,
when
you've
seen
these
done
What's
the
timing.
How
long
does
this
generally
take,
and
is
it
several
days
after
the
election
or
that
the
next
day
or
how
does
that
work?.
P
Good
as
far
as
the
they
will
be
done
in
their
jurisdictions,
so
they
won't
balance,
won't
be
moved
around
or
machines
or
anything
like
that.
We'll
we'll
probably
coordinate
a
little
bit.
We
might
do
a
zoom
call
that
day.
So
if
we
do
everybody
on
the
same
at
the
same
time
on
the
same
day
so
that
we
can
get
through
that
process,
we're
working
through
that
and
as
we're
finishing
up
the
election,
we're
getting
our
final
thoughts
together
for
this
again,
this
won't
take
place
until
after
the
impounding
period.
O
Sure
so
this
is
actually
we
talk
about
pros
and
cons
of
this
type
of
audit.
This
is
actually
one
of
the
things
that
election
officials
don't
like
in
a
fixed
percentage
audit.
We
know
exactly
how
many
ballots
we're
going
to
audit
and
how
many
people
we
need
to
do
it
and
how
long
it's
going
to
take
in
an
rla
that's
going
to
vary
because,
as
I
mentioned,
that
sample
size
could
be
bigger
or
smaller,
depending
on
the
outcome.
O
So
if
you
decide
to
set
the
risk
limit
higher
or
lower
that
again
impacts
that
sample
size,
so
it
is
a
little
bit
difficult
to
make
a
decision
about
allocating
resources
in
time.
I
will
tell
you
states
that
have
adopted
this,
as
their
formal
method
of
auditing
have
often
had
to
move
back
their
certification
period.
So,
ideally
right
we
want
to
do.
We
want
to
perform
this
audit
prior
to
certification.
If
there's
an
issue,
we
want
to
be
able
to
identify
that
issue
and
make
changes
if
it
would
affect
the
outcome
some
of
a
race.
A
Let
me
jump
in
real,
quick
representative
Smith
is
next,
but
who
will
be
doing?
Will
it
be
the
county
clerks
that
do
it
in
say,
Harrison
or
wherever
we're
doing
at
one
at?
Is
that
the
deal
is
that.
P
For
this
pilot
program,
it'll
be
the
clerk
staff.
They
will
do
the
same
thing
that
we
as
a
test
method,
we're
doing
party
parity,
we're
One,
Republic
and
one
Democrat
will
be
the
Auditors
that
will
look
at
each
ballot
Just,
as
we
would
do
in
a
regular,
normal
election.
But
right
now
it
will
be
the
staff.
There
will
be
opportunities
for
people
to
observe
this
we'll
make
that
available
so
that
we
can
be
completely
transparent.
We
want
to
see
how
this
works.
P
Another
reason:
we've
selected,
the
counties
we've
selected,
there's
a
large
County,
a
small,
a
medium-sized
County
and
a
small
County.
So
we
can
see
how
that
affects
their
office
and
their
flow,
and
also
we
took
three
from
one
vendor
and
three
from
the
other
vendors.
So
both
can
both
Kentucky
vendors
are
associated
in
this
and
we'll
and
I'm
sure
they'll
want
to
be
part
of
watching
what
happens,
because
we,
if
this
works-
and
it
goes
well
and
you
all
move
forward
with
anything-
we'd-
have
to
implement
this
across
the
state.
So.
Q
Q
There's
only
been
one
area
that
I've
been
really
concerned
about
necessarily
voting
I'm,
still
a
little
bit,
maybe
on
in
the
area
of
uncon,
really
not
knowing
specifics
about
it,
but
maybe
I'm,
misunderstanding
and
I
would
like
to
clear
it
up
while
you're
here.
If
I
can,
because
it's
going
on
right
now,
it
started
45
days
prior
to
the
election
day,
we're
in
an
open
election
right
now
and
the
absentee
as
we
call
it.
I
I
consider
it
still
a
vote
because
of
the
portal.
Q
It's
my
understanding
and
I
want
to
just
get
it
cleared
up
once
and
for
all.
I've
talked
to
the
chairman,
a
few
people
about
it.
Other
members
I
know
there's
a
criteria
for
early
votes
going
on
absentee
and
getting
on
the
portal
ordering
your
ballot,
similar
to
what
we've
done
two
years
ago
when
we
ran
it
was
a
portal
we
put.
The
a
voter
could
put
the
information
on
on
a
cell
phone
or
her
cell
phone
order,
the
ballot
it
was
mailed
to
their
address.
Q
They
voted
it
and
can
put
it
in
a
drop
box
or
to
the
clerk's
office.
We
kept
that
intact
on
the
portal.
If
is
that
right?
That's
my
understanding.
My
question
is
this:
I
looked
at
the
qualifications
for
voting
right
now,
one
of
the
very
first
one.
It
reads
you
are
advanced
in
age.
It
doesn't
tell
what
the
age
is.
So
if
you
feel
Advanced
at
20
or
30,
40.
Q
Q
Have
that
concern
right
now,
if
I
had
a
opponent
in
the
fall,
because
I
not
felt
that
that
type
of
a
movement
in
my
area
of
gathering-
and
we
call
them
harvesting
but
organizations
getting
together
having
meetings
and
saying,
let's
get
our
neighbors,
let's
get
our
family
members
to
get
on
the
portal
order,
their
ballot
and
you
say
well,
wait
a
minute.
Q
They
got
to
meet
the
criteria,
well
that
that
first
one
in
itself,
I
don't
know
anybody
could
challenge
in
court
without
an
age
on
that
to
say
whether
they
felt
like
they
were,
and
you
know
up
in
age
and
then
whether
I
feel
like
I'm
going
to
be
sick.
Coming
up
on
Election
Day
I
mean
that's
election
day,
whether
I
can
determine
if
I'm
going
to
be
sick
on
Election
election
day,
it's
over
with
so
I
feel
like
I'm,
going
to
be
sick
or
not
feel
like
going
that
day.
Q
I
can
go
ahead
and
go
on
the
portal
and
Order
My
ballot.
Not
only
can
I
order,
my
ballot,
but
it's
mailed
to
me.
I
can
fill
it
out
and
I
put
it
in
a
drop
box.
I
only
have
to
take
it
or
mail
it
anywhere.
I
can
go
by
and
just
drop
them.
My
concern
is
this:
it's
a
great
bill.
I
voted
for.
It
I
think
it
goes
a
long
ways.
Q
Q
Both
sides
and
there's
and
I
can
see
organized
organizations,
and
we,
if
I,
was
running
Statewide
I'd,
make
sure
I
hired
a
good
consultant
and
I'm,
not
sure
that
a
consultant
would
advise
me
to
find
large
areas
of
votes
and
to
start
working
them
early
if
he
was
doing
or
or
she
was
doing
her
job
to
try
to
get
the
early
vote
out.
Get
him
committed
am
I
wrong
in
looking
at
it
at
the
portal
this
way.
Q
Is
it
open
for
that
or
tell
me
that
it's
not
you're
totally
wrong,
because
the
old
absentee
ballot
was
I
would
have
to
mail
in
for
a
form.
It
would
be
mailed
to
me:
I'd
fill
the
form
out
mail
it
back
in
and
then
a
ballot
would
be
mailed
to
me.
We'd
have
two
transactions
that
I
would
have
to
go
through
to
to
to
vote
on
an
absentee
this
one
if
I'm
correct
and
tell
me
if
I'm,
right
or
wrong
that
the
portal
is
open.
Q
Don't
think
I'm
going
to
feel
good
feel
like
getting
out
of
out
of
the
house
that
day
and
use
that
as
my
excuse
and
go
ahead
and
order
the
ballot
now
just
kind
of
correct
me
if
I'm,
even
off
message
or
if
I'm,
even
close
to
being
right
on
ordering
getting
on
the
portal
and
ordering
my
ballot
today.
Could
you
kind
of
tell
me
if
I'm,
right
or
wrong.
Q
A
Q
I
really
do
think
it's
we've
talked
about
I.
Think
it's
an
important
issue
going
to
the
consultant.
Do
you
see
any
problems
with
that
with
with
that?
What
I've,
what
I've
stated,
what
I
said?
The
purpose,
the
reason
and
you
could
use
just
the
first
excuse
and
and
and
and
and
voting
this
way
by
being
an
outside
looking
in.
O
Well,
I
administered
elections
in
Utah
and
Colorado,
where
we
mail
all
voters
a
mail
ballot
and
if
they
don't
feel
comfortable
voting
that
they
have
the
option
to
go
and
vote
in
person
either
earlier
on
Election
Day,
we
provide
drop
boxes,
so
I've
watched
it
work,
so
so
I
may
be
a
little
bit
biased,
I
guess
in
what
I'm
saying
in
my
response,
I
watched
it
work
well
in
both
of
those
States
there's,
certainly
a
number
of
security
layers
that
are
in
place
to
ensure
nobody
has
the
opportunity
to
vote
twice
or
vote
somebody
else's
ballot.
O
We've
certainly
had
instances
where
we've
we've
we've
identified
individuals
and
sent
those
to
the
district
attorney's
office,
but
there
are
very
few
in
my
jurisdiction
of
about
400
000
voters.
In
2016
we
had
about
370
000
of
those
vote.
We
identified
six
that
we
refer
to
the
district
attorney,
so
that's
so
I
may
have
a
little
bit
different
perspective.
I
guess
on
on
that.
Okay.
P
P
A
B
A
It
yeah
Mr,
chairman
I,
would
request
that
before
the
end
of
this
week
that
we
would
be
getting
the
numbers
from
pre-covered
numbers
from
2000
to
to
today.
A
Each
election
I
think
those
are
very
simple
to
get
I
think
those
are
on
the
website
might
be
on
the
website,
even
because
that's
it
seems
to
be
a
pretty
to
me
and
I
could
be
wrong,
but
I'm
just
extrapolating
from
the
individual
counties
I've
represented
by
trying
to
go
Statewide
with
that,
and
that
might
not
be
the
right
thing
to
do,
but
70
000
seems
very,
very
high
and
so
I
just
wanted
to
I'd
like
to
know
those
numbers.
Thank
you.
B
I
will
add
that,
probably
tomorrow,
since
the
portal
for
absentee
closes
this
evening,
either
by
tomorrow
or
maybe
early
Thursday,
we
will
have
the
absentee
ballot
numbers
on
our
website.
So
you'd
be
even
be
able
to
go
for
this
election
and
we
can
get
you
those
other
numbers
representative.
A
I
Yes,
thank
you.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
I
have
a
few
questions
the
just
to
clarify
the
questions
that
were
asked
a
minute
ago.
The
the
reasons
for
the
the
excuses
am
I,
correct
that
the
advanced
age
is
a
term
used
in
the
Americans
with
Disabilities
Act
and
that
it's
been
defined
and
by
courts
and
and
the
act
in
relationship
to
the
act
so
that
that
is
something
that
is
related
to
keeping
us
compliant
with
the
Americans,
with
Disabilities
Act.
I
The
sick,
on
the
day
of
the
election
is
also
a
matter
of
complying
with
the
Americans,
with
Disabilities
Act,
ensuring
that
they
can
vote
if
they
have
a
condition
that
they
know
will
make
them
sick
on
Election
Day,
not
just
thinking
I
might
be
sick,
but
these
are
matters
when
we
drafted
the
bill
that
had
these
in
them.
Those
were
matters.
We
looked
at
federal
law.
We
have
to
be
compliant
with
the
Americans
with
Disabilities
Act.
Is
that
correct
I
mean
I,
know
it's
what
we.
I
And
on
the
ballot
harvesting,
one
of
the
things
that
I
think,
if
you
can
confirm
this,
that
the
portal
lends
to
ensuring
against
that
is
it.
The
is
that
the
portal
gives
a
barcode
to
every
request
for
an
absentee
ballot
and
when
it
is
returned,
so
that
one
of
the
ways
that
that
helps
against
ballot
harvesting
is
if
we
get
back
a
barcode.
That
is
a
batch
of
them
from
the
same
location.
On
the
same
time
that
that
would
be
an
indication
of
ballot
harvesting,
which
was
made
a
felony
in
that
in
HB
574..
P
Would
say
the
barcode
is
for
a
tracking
system
if
they
were
to
be
brought
in
and
put
in
a
Dropbox.
They
are
recording.
The
number
counts
that
they
get
in
the
Dropbox,
but
if
they
don't
immediately
scan
all
those
together,
they
wouldn't,
but
some
counties
probably
do,
and
that
would
be
something
that
you
could
pick
up
in
the
data.
I
P
Just
as
a
as
transparent
as
a
transparency
measure,
I
mean
we
wanted
to
reach
out
and
find
the
counties
that
were
we
needed
to
find
some
that
were
the
large
counties,
the
mediums
County
and
the
small.
We
asked
actually
asked
for
those
in
advance
and
we
just
released
it
because
we
were
being
transparent
on
the
whole
process.
What
we
were
doing
so.
P
Well,
in
that
we're
confusing
the
two
things:
the
risk
limiting
audit
for
the
pilot
program
we
had
to
be.
We
had
to
be
educated
on
this
and
we
had
to
come
together
as
a
working
group,
so
the
six
counties
were
involved
in
the
working
group
and
figuring
out
how
what
method
we
would
use,
because
this
is
a
learning
experience.
P
I
mean
this
is
going
to
affect
their
offices
and
it's
going
to
take
resources
to
do
this,
so
we
needed
to
test
that
and
we
needed
to
have,
but,
more
importantly,
we
needed
to
all
be
educated,
been
on
the
process,
and
that's
what
this
this.
This
several
months,
we've
been
going
through
and
meeting
together
as
a
group,
the
Attorney
General
will
still
do
their
audits.
Separate
of
this
and.
I
Then
my
final
question,
yes
is:
is
there
anything
those
counties
can
do
to
get
ready
for
this?
You've
talked
about
the
jelly
beans
and
how
they
won't
know
who,
but
is
there
anything
they
can
do
to
skew
the
results
by
knowing
that
they're
going
to
be
audited
that
they
can
fix
in
order
to
have
a
good
result.
O
Yeah
so
before
I
answer
that
I
just
want
to
add
one
thing
to
the
question
that
you
addressed
to
Mr
house,
and
that
is
the
outcome
of
this
pilot
audit
is
going
to
be
non-binding.
This
isn't
this
isn't
an
official
audit.
This
is
simply
a
learning
exercise
to
inform
what
will
be
potentially
may
become
the
official
method
of
auditing.
O
So
so
keep
that
in
mind
there
isn't
so
we
go
back
to
the
dice
rolling,
that's
actually
where
we
ensure
that
there's
no
way
anybody
can
know
ahead
of
time,
which
ballots
will
be
selected
from
which
containers
or
batches
or
precincts
or
scanners,
so
that
manifest
that
I
mentioned.
We,
if
you
think
about
one
row
of
data,
represents
one
container
and
in
there
there
may
be
hundreds
of
ballots.
Essentially,
what
happens
is
that
gets
extrapolated?
O
So
now
we
have
a
143
lines
of
data,
and
when
we
do
that
we
create
that
random
seed
and
we
use
this
pseudo-random
number
generator.
It
will
go
through
that
whole
kind
of
think
of
it
like
a
clock
right
and
it
will
decide.
Okay:
here's
where
I'm
going
to
start
and
I'm
going
to
choose
this
one
and
then
I'm
going
to
randomly
Advance
10
and
then
maybe
7
and
then
maybe
12,
and
it
continues
to
do
that
until
it
draws
the
whole
sample
what's
great
about
it,
being
a
pseudo
random
number
generator.
O
Is
anybody
can
take
that
random
seed
and
replicate
that
take
that
same
ballot,
manifest
that
the
state
board
will
have
and
ensure
that
those
were
the
ballots
that
were
selected?
So
it's
a
very
transparent
way
to
do
it,
but
it
also
prevents
anybody
from
gaming,
the
system
or
knowing
ahead
of
time.
What's
going
to
be
selected,
did
that
answer
your.
O
A
And
representative
Blanton.
H
Thank
you.
Thank
you
all
for
your
presentation
glad
to
see
that
we're
taking
a
look
at
this,
obviously
a
concern
to
all
of
us.
For
me,
my
big
concern
going
back
to
representative
Smith
from
my
area
is
the
mail-in
ballots.
H
I
know
you've
had
success,
but
you're
talking
about
areas
of
400,
000
I
think
you
said,
I
think
the
smaller
the
population,
the
easier
it
is
to
have
inappropriate
influences
and
in
my
region
that
seems
to
be
through
mail-in
balloting
right
now
years
back
it
was
done
more
at
the
polls.
Now
it's
migrated
towards
that.
H
I
know
that
one
of
my
clerks
in
a
small
County
I
spoke
to
over
the
weekend.
She's
already
had
over
400
mail-in
ballots
received,
which
is
high
numbers
for
a
very
small
County
and
and
those
these
tend
to
be
higher
in
local
elections
and
those
are
easier,
manipulated,
I,
think
and
I
know.
We
have
to
provide
opportunities
to
make
sure
everybody
gets
a
chance
to
vote
I'm
not
opposed
to
that
I.
Just
think.
H
We
have
to
really
really
be
cautious
and
take
a
very
hard
long
look
at
these
mail-in
ballots,
because
that
is
the
easiest
way
you
talked
about
how
they're
mailed
in.
But
let
me
tell
you
how
they're
how
they're
treated
in
my
area
so
I
go
to
you
not
me.
H
John
Doe
comes
to
you
and
I'm
going
to
give
you
fifty
dollars
for
your
vote
and
I'm
gonna
get
online
and
help
you
apply
for
your
online
ballot,
you're
going
to
apply
for
it
and
then
you're
going
to
call
me
when
it
gets
at
your
house
and
then
I'm
going
to
come
to
your
house
and
I'm
going
to
watch.
You
fill
out
that
ballot
I
may
even
Circle
it
in
myself
and
let
you
sign
it
and
we're
going
to
seal
it
up
and
then
we're
going
to
deliver
it
to
the
mail
or
the
last
election.
H
We
had
a
local
candidate
that
there
is
a
photograph
evidence
that
was
coming
in
with
with
you
know,
the
grocery
Walmart
type
bags
full
of
paper
ballots
and
dropping
them
off
at
the
Dropbox,
and
so
those
are
the
concerns
for
people
in
my
area
that,
as
if
maybe
their
votes
aren't
counting
because
it's
getting
taken
from
them
through
manipulative
practices,
and
so
we
just
want
to
ensure
that
it's
done
safely
and
fairly
for
for
everyone
and
I
hope
that
that
you
all
will
take
a
a
stringent
look
at
the
mail-in
absentees,
more
than
just
run
them
through
the
the
machine
itself.
A
Some
of
them
are
pretty
strict
penalties
if
they
do
get
caught.
Representative
gooch.
C
C
We
know
that
probably
no
Precinct
will
ever
vote
100
of
the
people
that
are
registered
in
that
Precinct,
and
yet
we've
heard
reports
in
some
other
states
where
you
actually
had
more
than
a
hundred
percent
of
people
that
actually
voted
as
far
as
the
number
of
registered
voters
in
that
Precinct
are
in
that
state
or
in
that
City.
C
We've
also
heard
that
there
were
instances
where
the
state
mailed
out,
200,
000,
maybe
or
whatever
a
number
of
absentee
ballots,
but
yet
they
got
in
three
hundred
thousand
I
mean
those
kind
of
things
would
be
easily
verifiable.
There
would
be
things
that
would
certainly
indicate
fraud.
Can
someone
tell
me
that
those
things
did
not
happen?.
O
Every
canvas
board
or
a
jurisdiction
that
I've
ever
worked
with
has
a
requirement
when
they
certify
our
canvas
that
election.
The
two
things
they
look
at
are
the
number
of
Voters
that
were
given
credit
for
voting
and
the
number
of
ballots
that
were
counted
and
if
those
numbers
are
off
meaning
they're,
as
you've
indicated
more
voters
showing
voted
or
more
ballots
counted
than
voters
voting,
or
vice
versa,
or
more
voters
than
are
registered
in
that
Precinct.
O
That's
a
red
flag
that
most
canvas
boards
would
then
not
certify
would
probably
can
investigate
to
find
out
why
those
were
off
and
I'm
not
aware
of
any
state
or
local
canvas
boards
that
were
able
to
identify
the
discrepancies
that
you
just
mentioned.
Okay,.