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From YouTube: Kingston, Ontario - Citizen Committee to Review Council Remuneration - October 27, 2021
Description
Citizen Committee to Review Council Remuneration meeting from October 27, 2021. For full meeting agenda visit: https://bit.ly/3vQBGVX
A
So
maybe
we
will
start
I'll
start
by
introducing
myself
and
maybe
we'll
introduce
committee
members
and
then
the
other
staff
that
are
here
tonight.
They
can
introduce
themselves
as
their
agenda
items
come
up.
So
I'm
derek
o'shea.
I
work
for
the
city
clerk's
department
and
I
am
the
committee
clerk,
so
I
will
be
helping
with
all
aspects
of
organization
and
administration
for
the
committee
and
I'm
just
going
to
go
around
my
screen
and
ask
people
to
introduce
themselves.
So
first,
mary,
jo.
B
D
A
D
F
G
D
A
A
Thank
you
for
joining
us
jessica
and
lindsay
is
our
new
members.
Our
final
member
is
laura
turner.
She
is
the
former
member
of
counselor
who
was
selected
to
serve
on
the
committee,
but
again
she
was
unable
to
join
us
tonight,
so
she
will
be
joining
us
for
future
meetings.
So
at
this
point
I
see
indira
I
think
has
left
is
going
to
try
and
rejoin
so
I'll
go
ahead
and
start
the
meeting.
Officially
at
this
point
and
the
first
item
of
business,
we
have
is
the
election
of
officers.
A
A
Excellent,
thank
you
indira,
so
jumping
back
to
where
I
was
going,
the
election
of
officers.
This
is
where
the
committee
selects
its
chair
and
vice
chair.
So
we
I
did
receive
from
laura
in
interest
in
serving
as
chair
she's,
not
able
to
be
here
tonight,
but
we
can
put
her
forth
for
consideration.
Does
anybody
else
have
an
interest
in
serving
as
chair
helen?
I
see
you
have
your
hand
up.
A
A
A
A
Jordan,
thank
you,
jordan
and
I
had
discussed
this.
I
wasn't
going
to
call
him
out,
though
I
was
going
to
give
him
the
opportunity.
I'm
assuming
nobody
else
has
a
keen
interest.
So
in
that
case,
do
we
have
a
mover
and
a
seconder
for
jordan
morelli
as
our
vice
chair.
So
I
have
john
and
indira
john
moving
and
then
indira,
and
I
will
call
the
vote
on
that
all
in
favor.
D
A
A
C
C
C
C
A
C
C
J
J
My
name
is
jenna
morley,
I'm
the
director
of
legal
services
and
city
solicitor
for
the
city
of
kingston,
and
I
am
here
to
briefly
discuss
the
city's
code
of
conduct
with
you,
as
well
as
the
topic
of
conflicts
of
interest.
So
what
is
the
code
of
conduct?
The
code
of
conduct
is
a
set
of
written
rules
and
expectations
that
all
members
of
council
and
members
of
committees,
including
this
committee,
must
adhere
to.
J
J
So,
under
the
code
of
conduct
you,
as
committee
members,
have
a
responsibility
to
promote
and
uphold
the
purposes
of
the
city
you're
required
to
participate
actively
in
the
business
of
the
committee
and
in
good
faith.
You're
also
required
to
uphold
the
law
with
the
highest
degree
of
ethical,
behavior
and
integrity,
and
to
treat
all
members
of
staff
and
the
public
with
respect.
J
J
J
So,
as
I
mentioned,
the
code
of
conduct
does
require
you
to
take
appropriate
steps
to
avoid
conflicts
of
interest
both
apparent
and
real.
So
this
can
be
a
bit
of
a
tough
subject
to
grapple
with
essentially
there's
two
categories
of
conflicts
of
interest:
there's
a
parent
or
perceived
conflicts
of
interest,
and
there
are
real
conflicts
of
interest.
J
So
in
terms
of
a
real
conflict
of
interest,
we
have
legislation,
that's
called
the
municipal
conflict
of
interest
act
and
it
deals
specifically
with
pecuniary
interests.
Conflicts
of
interest
under
that
act.
Members
of
committees,
like
yourselves,
must
avoid
direct
and
indirect
pecuniary
conflicts
of
interest.
J
Perhaps
the
most
interesting
thing
about
that
legislation
is
that,
while
it's
entirely
focused
on
pecuniary
conflicts
of
interest,
it
doesn't
actually
define
what
constitutes
a
cunary
conflict
of
interest.
So
we
have
to
derive
that
from
the
law.
Essentially,
a
direct
pecuniary
interest
is
where
you,
as
a
member
of
the
committee,
have
a
financial
or
economic
interest
in
the
matter,
that's
being
discussed.
J
J
An
indirect
pecuniary
interest
can
arise
when
you,
when
your
partner,
your
spouse,
your
child,
etc
has
a
financial
or
economic
interest
in
the
matter,
that's
being
discussed.
So,
for
example,
if
the
committee
is
discussing
funding
to
abc
corp
and
your
spouse
is
the
owner
of
abc
corp,
you
have
an
indirect
speculary
interest
in
the
matter,
that's
being
decided
in
terms
of
a
perceived
or
apparent
conflict
of
interest.
J
Essentially,
the
courts
have
imposed
a
broader
responsibility
on
members
of
council
and
committees
to
avoid
perceived
conflicts,
so
a
perceived
conflict
where
it
will
exist
where
it's
objectively
reasonable.
In
the
circumstances
that
the
committee
member
will
be
influenced
by
some
sort
of
private
interest,
it
might
not
be
a
direct
pecuniary
interest,
but
someone
looking
at
the
situation
objectively
in
knowing
all
of
the
circumstances
might
question
your
ability
to
be
impartial
in
that
circumstance.
J
So,
in
terms
of
tips
to
assess
whether
a
particular
situation
is
going
to
give
rise
to
a
conflict
of
interest,
you
might
consider
asking
yourself
a
few
questions
like
have
I
been,
or
am
I
going
to
be
involved
with
this
particular
matter
in
my
personal
or
professional
capacity
or
any
of
my
business
partners
or
family
members
connected
with
this
matter?
In
any
way,
am
I
capable
of
addressing
this
matter
without
bias?
Am
I
coming
to
this
matter
with
an
open
mind?
J
Have
I
considered
the
public
interest
as
the
priority
and,
finally,
what
would
a
reasonable
person
having
knowledge
of
all
of
the
relevant
facts
believe
about
whether
I'm
being
influenced
by
a
personal
or
business
interest?
If
I
vote
on
this
matter,
so
what
do
you
do
if
a
conflict
of
interest
arises
you're
required
to
declare
that
conflict
of
interest
prior
to
the
matter
being
considered,
as
was
raised
by
derek
tonight
when
he
asked
if
there
were
any
conflicts
to
be
declared?
J
As
a
member
of
an
advisory
committee,
you
can
participate
in
discussion,
but
you
cannot
vote
on
a
matter
where
you
have
a
conflict
of
interest,
so
the
clerk's
department
is
available
to
assist
you
in
the
appropriate
process
for
declaring
that
conflict
of
interest.
But
neither
the
clerk's
department
nor
legal
services
can
tell
you
whether
you
have
a
conflict
of
interest.
That's
a
matter
that
you
have
to
determine
either
a
loan
or
an
association
with
the
city's
integrity.
Commissioner.
J
J
C
A
K
Okay,
not
sure
what
happened
there.
I
haven't
turned
my
computer
off
or
changed
my
settings
all
day,
but
as
long
as
you
can
hear
me
now,
that's
all
that's!
That's
all!
That's
important!
So
welcome
everybody
good
to
good
to
see
you
again.
I
just
want
to
take
a
little
bit
of
a
time
tonight
just
to
go
through
the
the
mandate
of
the
committee
and
and
the
sort
of
the
next
steps
and
what
you
can
expect
for
the
next
the
next
meeting.
K
So
the
the
mandate
of
the
committee
is
very
similar
to
previous
iterations
of
this
committee.
It's
primarily
focused
on
the
remuneration
that
is
paid
to
the
mayor
and
the
twelve
district
councillors.
If
you've
had
an
opportunity
to
read
the
report
that
was
provided
to
council,
the
committee
will
review
the
current
composition
paid
to
the
mayor
and
members
of
council
and
establish
the
percentile
group
as
kingston's
target
pay
position
or
an
appropriate
remuneration
to
ensure
the
city's
pay
position
is
attained
relative
to
comparative
municipalities.
K
These
salaries
are
adjusted
annually
to
the
cost
of
living,
as
established
by
the
cpi
consumer
price
index.
On
the
previous
october,
first
council
did
forego
their
annual
increase
in
2021
at
their
decision
in
recognition
of
the
financial
impacts
of
the
pulpit
19
pandemic.
So
there
was
not
an
increase
for
this
year.
K
The
second
part
of
the
mandate
for
this
committee
is
focused
on
the
potential
options
for
administrative
support
for
district
councillors.
Currently,
the
district
councillors
receive
administrative
support
on
an
ad
hoc
basis.
From
staff
and
clerks
department,
but
they
don't
have
dedicated
administrative
administrative
staff
resources.
K
K
Thanks:
okay,
sorry,
I
just
was
had
a
little
delay
on
my
end.
So
excuse
me
so
included
in
this
in
this
mandate
are
two
directions
on
how
the
committee
will
will
achieve
that.
So
the
first
step
will
be
to
examine
the
roles
and
the
responsibilities
of
the
mayor
and
district
councillors,
and
next
will
be
an
examination
of
the
current
demands
and
the
workloads
of
the
mayor
and
district
councillors,
based
on
a
review
of
best
practices
in
comparative
municipalities
for
previous
iterations
of
this
committee.
K
What
we've
done
is
staff
have
gathered
the
information
through
a
municipal
comparator
survey
and
a
questionnaire
that
had
both
in-person
interviews
with
the
current
mayor
and
district
councillors,
those
who
who
were
interested
in
participating
and
so
in
the
next
two
slides
I'll,
give
a
few
more
details
on
on
how
that
will
take
place
next
slide.
Please.
K
K
Compared
to
municipalities
to
kingston,
as
established
in
the
report
that
was
provided
to
council,
include,
barry,
brantford,
chatham-kent,
wealth,
sudbury
and
thunder
bay.
The
criteria
that
we
used
for
determining
these
comparator
municipalities
include.
They
are
all
municipalities
that
use
either
the
standing
committee
or
committee
of
the
whole
governance
model.
So
in
kingston,
for
example,
we
have
four
standing
committees
of
council,
the
planning
committee,
administrative
policies,
committee,
environment,
infrastructure
and
transportation
policies
and
the
arts,
recreation
and
community
policies
committee.
Each
of
these
committees
consists
just
of
counselors.
K
K
The
role
of
the
standing
committees
is
to
examine
city
policy
in
a
greater
detail
and
make
recommendations
to
councils.
This
is
done
in
an
effort
to
increase
efficiency
at
councils
so
that
essentially,
the
counselors
who
are
sitting
on
those
committees
are
subject
matter.
Experts,
if
you
will,
and
they
review
things
in
greater
depth
and
then
make
a
recommendation
to
council,
we
also
looked
at
municipalities
that
have
similar
population,
so
in
2016
the
census
in
kingston
had
our
population
at
117
660.
K
we're
a
little
bigger
than
that.
Now
the
municipal
and
the
municipality
comparators
operate
as
a
single
single-tier
municipality,
so
that
means
they're,
not
part
of
a
regional
municipality
or
they're,
not
sort
of
a
municipality,
and
then
a
county
kind
of
like
some
of
our
neighbors,
have
a
township
or
a
town.
That
then
has
also
a
layer
of
county
administration,
they're
single
t,
they're,
those
would
be
called.
K
You
know,
upper
tier
and
lower
tier,
whereas
we're
a
single
tier
community
in
kingston
and
then
the
the
last
criteria
is
that
the
excuse
me
that
the
municipality
elects
councillors
by
district
or
ward
and
that
counselors
are
considered
part-time.
So
that
means
that
each
counselor
has
a
specific
area
that
they're
elected
from,
rather
than
being
elected
at
large.
Some
municipalities
do
elect
their
their
counselors
at
large.
The
same
way
we
elect
our
mayor
at
large
here
and
a
number
of
the
larger
municipalities
have
counselors
that
are
that
are
full-time.
K
Our
counselors
are
considered
part-time,
so
those
municipalities
that
I
mentioned
earlier
are
all
very
similar
in
structure
to
kingston.
Of
course,
the
committee
could
select
additional
municipalities
to
participate
in
the
survey,
for
example,
in
2017
windsor
and
london
were
also
selected
to
participate
in
the
survey,
even
though
they're
significantly
larger
in
population,
they
do
have
a
number
of
ways
that
they
compare
nicely
to
kingston
in
terms
of
single
tier
and
the
way
they
conduct
their
elections.
K
So,
as
part
of
the
business
later
tonight,
we
will
be
reviewing
some
potential
survey,
questions
and
compare
and
the
comparative
municipalities
and
we'll
get
your
approval
on
those
questions
so
that
we
can
start
to
undertake
the
work
of
distributing
the
survey
to
to
our
comparative
municipalities
next
slide.
Please.
K
K
We
would
review
the
previous
committee's
questionnaires
and
interview
questions
at
a
future
meeting
before
finalizing
how
this
committee
wants
to
move
forward.
Questions
used
previously
focused
on
things
like
what
was
asked
or
expected
of
an
individual
when
they're
elected
to
council.
So
what's
the
counselor's
perspective
on
what's
expected
of
them?
What
do?
What
does
a
counselor
perceive
as
their
their
top
priorities?
K
K
And
finally,
once
the
committee's
gathered
all
of
the
necessary
data,
the
committee
will
be
responsible
for
creating
a
final
report
which
will
be
presented
to
council
in
the
past.
A
member
of
the
committee,
it's
typically
been
the
chair,
has
presented
that
report
at
a
council
meeting
and
answered
questions
from
council
on
behalf
of
the
on
behalf
of
the
committee
at
that
meeting.
K
The
final
recommendations
are
to
be
based
on
number
one:
establishing
the
percentile
group
for
kingsman's
target
pay
position
or
the
appropriate
remuneration
and
number
two
to
make
recommendations
for
administrative
support
for
district
councillors.
So
those
two
pieces
that
I
mentioned
were
were
the
key
pieces
of
the
mandate.
K
K
C
K
F
K
Yes,
the
committee
started
its
work
in
2017,
finished
its
work
and
made
its
recommendation
in
2018..
So
this
is
a
process
that
we've
done
at
the
city
of
kingston
for
a
number
of
years,
isn't
the
appropriate
war
but
number
of
terms
of
council.
So
the
the
clerks
department
initiates
the
process
during
the
last
year
of
a
term
of
council,
and
then
this
committee
makes
recommendations
for
the
next
term
of
council.
So
we'll
do
this
again
in
four
years.
G
C
G
I'm
just
curious,
as
far
as
who
is
the
which
department
or
committee
looks
at
the
boundaries
and
making
that
decision,
whether
to
make
the
counselors
full
time,
and
all
of
that
is
that
a
whole
separate
piece,
that's
determined
at
council
level
or
is
that
a
clerk's
office
assessment
every
year
or
how
is
that?
How
does
that
work.
K
You
can't
have
two
full-time
jobs,
whereas
if
you
have
a
full-time
job,
you
can
also
have
a
part-time
job,
so
there
was
definitely
recognition
that
maybe
the
hours
put
in
are
considered
full-time
in
terms
of
the
number
of
hours
that
they
spend
attending
meetings
and
responding
to
constituents,
but
that
that
it
was
still
part-time.
A
certain
element
is
many
of
the.
The
elected
officials
believe
that
you
know
this
is
part
of
their
civic
duty.
It's
not
it's
not
just
about
remuneration,
and
so
the
decision.
K
C
G
Yes,
that's
true
and
that's
sort
of
looking
at
the
big
picture
of
how
you
know
you
look
at
when
the
city
of
london
was
mentioned.
It's
I'm
actually
in
london
right
now
and
you
know
it's
not
half
a
million,
but
it's
pretty
darn
close
and
there
are
14
counselors,
but
I'm
assuming
they're
full-time.
But
it's
a
you
know
much
larger
population
and
only
14
counselors.
So
I
I
look
at
the
whole
aspect
of
you
know:
what
does
a
city
the
size
of
kingston?
G
K
I
think
that's
definitely
something
that
you
know
we
can
think
about
as
we
formulate
the
the
questionnaires
are.
The
questions
for
the
the
interviews
that
we
do
with
members
of
council.
But
again,
that's
not
direction.
That's
been
provided
to
this
committee
and
it
would
be
a
direction
of
counsel
in
terms
of
doing
a
anything
like
award
boundary
reviews.
C
K
K
From
council,
I
would
be
of
the
opinion
that
that's
not
something
that
would
be
really
like
a
ward
boundary
review
at
this
time
when
we've
got
an
election
in
basically,
one
year's
time
would
be
an
almost
insurmountable
piece
of
work
to
try
and
get
done
between
this
committee
and
the
next
committee.
If
this
is
something
that
the
committee
that
this
committee
feels
is
is
worth
looking
at,
then
that
might
be
something
that,
like
I
say
it
could
be.
K
It
could
be
a
question
that
is
posed
to
councillors
as
part
of
the
interview
process.
What
are
their,
what
are
their
thoughts
and
maybe
built
into
the
the
body
of
the
report
as
a
suggestion
or
a
recommendation
for
something
to
consider
going
forward,
but
I'm
not
sure
it's
something
that
that
is
is
feasible
before
the
next
election.
I
The
the
mandate
for
this
committee
is
pretty
pretty
tight
and
I
would
be
concerned
about
just
when
I
think
about
the
logistics
and
doing
the
analysis
of
information,
throwing
in
a
few
questions
to
answer
a
question
that
is,
we
haven't
even
been
tasked
to
consider,
and
I
I
I
think
my
last
point
would
be
that
that
sounds
to
me
like
an
entirely
different
scope,
for
which
the
city
may
have
requested
a
different
composition
of
delegates
on
the
citizen
committee.
To
consider
just
my
perspective.
C
A
A
It
is
changeable
as
we
move
forward,
but
it
is
a
guide
to
give
the
committee
a
sense
of
what
will
be
happening
as
well
as
a
rough
schedule
of
meetings
as
well
is
based
on
a
lot
of
the
work
from
previous
iterations
of
the
committee,
and
the
goal,
as
stated
in
the
original
report,
is
that
the
committee
will
complete
its
mandate,
I
believe,
by
the
end
of
this
year.
Unfortunately,
we
got
started
a
bit
late,
so
that's
not
possible.
A
So
our
goal
is
to
complete
the
mandate
by
the
end
of
q1
in
2022,
so
we
also
have
to
factor
in
we
do
have
the
winter
holidays
as
well,
which
costs
us
a
bit
of
time.
So
anyway,
the
it's.
The
the
draft
work
plan
is
presented
to
you.
If
there's
any
questions
about
it
or
people
feel
there
needs
to
be
any
changes
or
alterations,
jordan,
we
can
discuss
and
decide
or
the
committee
can
decide
amongst
itself.
I
I
don't
help
decide.
I
just
help
make
it
happen.
C
A
I
do
have
one
just
comment,
I
would
add
jordan
and
we
can
maybe
discuss
it
as
part
of
a
later
agenda
item,
but
in
terms
of
future
meeting
dates,
I
think
the
preference
from
the
clerk's
department
in
terms
of
scheduling
would
be
continue
with
wednesday
evenings.
We
have
a
lot
of
other
committees
that
typically
meet
on
tuesdays
and
thursdays,
so
we
can
discuss
that
further.
As
part
of
the
I
believe
it's
agenda.
Item
e
is
where
we
talk
about
meeting
dates,
but
I
wanted
to
make
that
known.
C
C
A
C
That's
right
so
we'll
use
it
as
our
framework
for
for
planning,
and
you
know
we
will
adjust
as
necessary
great
so
that
takes
us
to
item
8c,
which
is
review
of
municipal
comparators
and
survey
questions.
So
I
think
maybe
we
should
take
those
in
in
turn,
so
first
with
the
municipal
comparators
and
then
we'll
deal
with
the
survey
questions.
Second,
so
we
had
a
list
and
I
don't
see
where
it
went
so,
maybe
derrick
or
janet.
C
If
you
could
remind
us
of
what
the
municipal
comparators
were,
what
were
we've
been
proposed
as
competitors
and
people
can
weigh
in
if
there
are
other
ones
that
we
should
have
and
while
you're
getting
that
ready,
maybe
are
we
restricted
to
ontario
like?
Is
there
a
reason
that
we
aren't
looking
at?
Maybe
what
say
british
columbia
or
alberta
is
doing
just
as
examples.
K
Thank
you
for
that
a
common
problem.
We
have
typically
used
ontario
municipalities
because
we
all
operate
under
the
same
statute,
which
is
the
ontario
municipal
act.
So
the
expectations
of
of
counsellors
are
set
out
and
and
the
roles
of
municipal
councils
and
what
they
can
and
can't
do
is,
is
the
same
municipal
councils
in
in
saskatchewan
or
british
columbia
might
have.
You
know
either
a
much
narrower
or
a
much
larger
scope
of
of
power
than
what
an
ontario
municipality
has.
K
So
that's
why
we've
always
stuck
with
ontario
municipalities
and
in
terms
of
what
those
comparators
are.
I
have
the
list
in
front
of
me,
so
it
includes
barry,
brantford,
chatham-kent,
guelph,
sudbury
and
thunder
bay,
and
I
believe
I
mentioned
that
previous
previously
windsor
and
london
were
also
asked
to
be
included
by
the
committee
had
also
asked
that
staff
surveyed
those
those
municipalities
as
well.
C
H
That's
all
that,
I'm
thinking
of
when
I'm
suggesting
that
we
look
at
something
in
eastern
ontario
we're
not
the
same
as
southwestern
ontario
we're
not
the
same
as
the
north,
we're
a
bit
unique
in
our
own
economic
zone.
So
that's
the
only
reason
why
I
would
like
to
suggest
in
eastern
ontario
municipality,
but
I
don't
know
if
they
meet
the
other
criteria
that
you
outline
there
janet.
K
Every
time
every
time
I'm
not
I'm
not
sure,
I
think
that
peterborough
is
is
singled
here,
I'm
not
sure
about
clarington.
I
do
know
that
that
a
little
closer
to
home,
brockville
and
gananoque
are
both
single-tier
municipalities
now
gannon
awkward,
of
course,
is
substantially
smaller
than
kingston
brockville's.
K
K
You
know
you
feel
like
a
big
fish
in
a
small
pond
when
you,
when
you
were
compared
to
some
of
the
p
some
of
the
municipalities
that
are
geographically
closer
to
us,
but
then,
when
you
put
yourself
in
the
in
the
sort
of
the
same
boat
as
those
municipalities
in
the
gta,
all
of
a
sudden,
you're
you're
just
a
little
tadpole
again,
so
there's
never
going
to
be
a
municipality,
that's
exactly
the
same
as
as
kingston.
So
it's
whatever
this!
Whatever
this
committee
decides
we're
happy
to
do.
I
K
C
K
I
was
looking
at
there
was
a
county
of
peterborough
as
well.
I
was
looking
at
the
wrong
line
on
my
on
the
page
that
I
was
looking
at
so
so
this
the
city
of
peterborough
is
a
single-tier
municipality
and
it
has
a
population
of
just
over
80
000.
So
it's
not
that
far
different
in
terms
of
population
from
kingston.
It's
certainly
a
certainly
municipality.
We
can.
We
can
reach
out
to
that's
what
the
committee
would
like
us
to
do.
A
G
H
It
sort
of
means
us
trying
to
make
a
decision
today
or
at
least
making
a
decision.
That
and
again
I
don't
know
if
peterborough
and
others
here
may
know
more
than
me
about
some
of
the
other
eastern
ontario
communities.
I
don't
know
if
peterborough
is
somewhat
equally
representative
in
terms
of
economy
to
of
eastern
ontario.
C
So
so
I
have
a
procedural
question
for
derek.
Maybe
is
it
possible
that
we
like?
Are
we
allowed
to
have
electronic
votes
so,
for
example,
could
we
leave
it
with
with
the
city
staff
to
explore
these
other
four
communities
in
eastern
ontario
and
then
give
us
a
list
later
this
week
or
early
next
week
of
you
know
seven
or
eight
nine,
however
many
and
and
we
can
pick
six
or
so,
if
whatever
from
that
list
or.
A
I
may
make
a
suggestion:
technically,
no,
the
committee
cannot
advance
business
outside
of
public
forum,
but
what
I
would
suggest
is
even
if
there
is
some
doubt
as
to
whether
peterborough
or
clarington
are
appropriate,
there's
no
harm
in
gathering
the
information,
and
then,
if
we
find
that
they're,
not
an
appropriate
comparator,
the
committee
doesn't
have
to
consider
them.
So
I
think
that
may
be
a
way
to
go
about
it
and
I
will
turn
it
back
because
I
see
I
think
indira
has
something
she
wants
to
add.
So
I'll
leave
it
to
you,
mr
chair.
I
Just
a
methodological
question
because
I
think
what
I
would
be
accustomed
to
I
I
liked
what
I
heard
in
terms
of
the
criteria
and
in
an
ideal
world.
What
I
might
imagine
is
getting
you
know
all
of
them,
those
those
very
quantifiable
measures
for
all
ontario
municipalities,
and
then
we
can
say
well
what
it
what
fits?
What's
don't
what
doesn't,
because
I
I
do
feel
a
bit
like
like
we're
being
asked
to
well
off
the
top
of
our
head.
I
What
might
be
those
communities
that
we
might
want
to
consider,
and
I
don't
know
that
we
shouldn't
consider,
say
sudbury
as
an
example
as
a
northern
community.
So
I
I
just
wonder
if
there's
a
more
objective
way
for
us
to
get
and-
and
my
preceding
question,
probably
about
three
or
four
minutes
ago
would
have
been
how
how
were
these
original
ones
arrived
at,
because
perhaps
that
was
the
process
then,
and
that
we
then
the
question
is:
have
there
been
any
material
changes
to
municipalities
that
we
would
want
to
then
consider.
E
E
The
the
criteria
was
set
up
based
on
the
compares
that
we
used
in
the
past
on
a
number
of
subjects,
so
those
those
are
the
comparatively
used
in
the
past.
There
is
no
problem
with
reviewing
other
municipalities
as
far
as
we
do
want
to
stick
to
the
mandate
that
was
given
to
us
in
criteria,
but
it
doesn't
hurt
us
to
take
a
look
at
some
of
municipalities.
E
E
E
E
C
I
Sorry
just
wondering
whether
there
are
other
pieces
of
business
that
that
the
city
of
kingston
undertakes
that
that
they
look
at
an
identified
comparator
group
that
that
we
may
then
use
to
inform
for
this
purpose.
So
in
the
hospitals,
for
example,
we
have
our
identified
peer
group
and
and
they
meet
specific
definitions
and
we
use
them
across
different
work
processes
to
sort
of
stress
test
our
performance.
So
I
just
wondered
if,
if
that
may
be
true
with
the
with
the
municipality
as
well,.
C
E
E
Here,
having
a
standing
community
governance
process,
population
and
things
of
that
nature,
so
it
needs
to
compare
apples
to
oranges
just
because
they're
fruit,
sometimes
you
the
best
response,
but
we're
committed
that
if
we
do
get
some
limited
communities,
we
would
take
a
look
at
that
based
on
our
criteria
and
then
report
back
to
the
committee
on
whether
or
not
they
meet
criteria.
And
then
we
can
take
it
from
there.
C
Yeah
thanks
john,
and
I
mean
at
the
end
of
the
day,
this
is
just
one
of
the
things
that
we
will
consider
in
making
our
recommendations
right.
So
it's
you
know
whether
we
have
six
communities
or
seven
or
eight.
It's
maybe
not
going
to
end
up
being
a
big
deal
so,
but
the
floor
is
still
open
if
people
want
to.
If
we
can
try
to
reach
a
consensus
here,
I
don't.
I
don't
think
we
have
an
emerging
consensus
on
on
what
to
do
here.
Yet.
I
I
would
just
add,
though,
jordan,
that
I,
if
I'm
recalling
correctly-
and
I
read
the
materials
a
couple
of
weeks
ago,
my
recollection-
is
that
the
the
mathematical
process
that
was
used
in
determining
the
benchmark
was,
I
think
it
was
median,
might
have
been
mean.
I
can't
remember
which
it
was
so.
I
actually
think
that
that
the
outcome
will
have
a
material
impact
yeah.
C
K
K
Not
sure
if
you
mentioned
both
of
them
helen,
I
heard
peterborough
and
I
heard
sudbury
and
and
while
the
committee's
been
having
some
discussion,
I
just
did
a
little
bit
of
research.
I
think
I
mentioned
earlier.
Peterborough
is
a
single
tier
municipality
and
it
has
a
population
of
about
80
000..
They
do
have
a
similar
system
to
kingston
with
mayor
and
district
councillors,
so
so
they
meet
the
the
criteria.
That
way,
you
know
they're
they're
a
little
smaller,
but
they
do.
K
They
do
meet
the
other
two
criterias
in
terms
of
governance,
structure
and
and
the
method
of
electing
the
elected
officials.
Sudbury
likewise,
is
a
single-tier
municipality.
They
have
a
mayor
and
district
councillors
and
they
have
a
population
of
about
160
000,
so
a
little
bigger
than
kingston,
so
you've
got
a
municipality,
a
little
bigger
municipality,
a
little
smaller
than
kingston,
but
but
similar
in
terms
of
those
other
two
criteria
that
were
set
out.
K
H
So
I
mean
I,
I
would
be
prepared
to
make
a
motion
if
that's
what's
required,
that
we
add
peterborough
and
assuming
that
it
that
well
and
we
don't
even
need
to
assume
that
it
meets
the
criteria,
because
if
it
doesn't,
when
it
comes
back
with
the
information
that
the
city
finds
out,
then
we
don't
include
it.
But
I
would
also
think
if,
if
there's
an
interest
amongst
the
others
of
adding
another
one
of
our
another
neighboring
communities
like
brockville
or
cornwall,
I
would
add
that
to
the
motion
as
well.
But.
K
H
K
H
C
C
E
F
C
C
Wonderful,
so
we
will
do
that
and
that
will
be
added
to
the
list
of
communities
we
will
survey
and
now
we
move
on
to
the
survey
questions-
and
I
don't
know
eric
where
the
the
draft
of
survey
questions
are.
I
don't
have
it
in
front
of
me,
so
maybe
somebody
does
and
they
can
share
screen
or
how
do
we.
C
C
Then
you
see
it
here
yeah,
it
starts
on
page
six
of
the
agendas
it
says.
Questions
asked
municipal
information,
mayor
remuneration,
council,
member
rememberation,
mayor
benefits,
healthcare
and
pension,
and
so
on.
So
hopefully
everybody
has
it
handy
and
you
can
scroll
through
it
and
I
think
that
by
default
we
would
just
reuse
these
questions,
but
we
should
look
at
them
with
a
view
of.
Are
there
any
that
we
want
to
remove
or
any
that
we
want
to
add
or
anything
like
that,
and
perhaps
maybe
the
mandate
was
slightly
different.
C
A
I
Sorry,
I
feel
like
I'm,
asking
all
the
questions
just
under
the
remuneration.
I
was
curious
and
particularly
derek
you
just
clarified,
because
it
was
exactly
my
question
about
is:
is
it
relevant
to
ask
around
whether
it's
part-time
or
full-time
in
in
in
my
world,
in
compensation
administration?
That's
not
relevant,
so
I
I
was
curious
that
that
question
it
sounded
like
you,
maybe
removed
it
from
others.
So
I
wondered
if
it
was
intentional
to
keep
it
as
the
sub
two
under
the
mirror
section.
I
A
C
G
Yeah,
no
I'm
just
curious
as
to
there
are
there
are
going
to
be
municipalities
like
just
like
the
councillors
are
part-time.
The
mayor
might
be
part-time
as
well,
but
in
kingston
the
mayor's
full-time
position.
Is
it
not
yes,
so
interim,
were
you
saying
that
it's
better
to
say
are
you
part-time?
Is
the
mayor,
part-time,
full-time
or
how
many
hours.
I
No
just
generally
from
a
compensation
job
evaluation
perspective,
the
number
of
hours
aren't
relevant
right.
So
I
guess
the
question,
though,
to
your
point
may
be
to
ask
grant
what's
the
annualized
salary,
because
that
would
that
would
then
give
you
a
level
playing
field
right.
So
if,
if
they,
if,
if
one
of
the
municipalities
has
someone
a
mayor
that
they
consider
to
be
0.8,
if
they
annualize
it,
then
we
we've
got
a
level
playing
field,
regardless
of
what
the
the
actual
amount
of
time
they're
they're,
aiming
to
compensate
for.
G
H
Yeah,
sorry,
thank
you
and,
and
I
I
don't
work
in
hr
and
understand
all
the
implications,
but
it
would
seem
to
me
well
well,
the
average
number
of
hours
is
not
part
of
a
compensation
is
not
part
of
something
that
you
question
with
compensation.
Usually
up
isn't
or
sorry.
Our
compensation
package
is
not
tied
to
the
position
being
full-time
or
part-time,
and
so,
when
you're
doing
a
compensation
review,
you're,
not
looking
at
specifically
the
number
of
hours.
But
when
somebody
is
in
a
position
there
is
an
expectation
that
they
work
x
number
of
hours.
H
So
I
just
I
I
think
it's.
I
think
this
question
is
germane
to
to
the
information
that
we
would
want
to
see
in
terms
of
a
comparison
and
not
so
much
in
that
it's
full-time
or
part-time.
But
if,
if
if
it
turns
out
that
we
we
an
interview
shows
that
our
mayor
is
working
many
more
hours
than
a
mayor
in
another
municipality.
C
K
K
You
know
the
the
mayor
and
counselors
recognize
that
you
know
sometimes
that
those
hours
may
add
up
to
be
more
than
what
someone
might
consider
full
part-time
hours,
but
they
are
considered
part-time
positions,
and
my
understanding
is
that
you
know
there
may
be
you
know.
Sometimes
if
somebody
is
employed
full-time,
they
may
have
conditions
in
their
contract.
That
says
they
can't
be
employed
elsewhere
and
that's
why
these
counselors
are
one
of
the
reasons
why
it
was.
The
decision
was
made
by
the
committee
last
time
to
make
the
recommendation
and
council
approved.
C
So
it
avoids
conflict
of
commitment.
I
guess
issues
and
thanks
janet
for
correcting
the
record
on
that.
The
mayor
is
part-time
officially,
so
I
don't
know,
though,
maybe
it
seems
to
me
like
in
indira
you're
saying
you
know,
proposing
to
remove
question
two
and
modify
question
one
so
that
we
get
the
annualized
sort
of
full-time
equivalent
salary.
But
if
we
left
the
two
questions
the
way
they
were,
could
we
not
extract
the
the
information
from
that
and
then.
I
I
think
just
from
a
practice
perspective
we
would
want
to
so
so
so
the
reason
that
asking
for
annualized
is
helpful
is
that
it
it
allows
each
municipality
to
say
well,
regardless
of
how
many
hours,
because
there's
a
difference
in
many
of
us
who
might
be
in
management,
would
know,
there's
what
we're
paid
for
the
number
of
hours
we're
paid
for
and
there's
the
reality
of
how
many
hours
we
actually
work.
So
my
worry
about
the
wording
of
that
question
is
that
it
may
not
be.
I
It
may
not
inform
us
in
the
manner
that
we
think
we
wish
to
be
informed.
So
a
municipality
says.
Yes,
our
mayor
works
2000
hours
a
year.
I
would
say
well
that's
full
time,
but
maybe
that
municipality
is
only
paying
based
on
a
0.5.
So
that's
that
I
think
we
just
need
to
be
cautious
of
that,
and
I
would
presume
that
the
or
that
the
municipality
has
made
a
determination
of
what
quantum
of
time
it
intends
to
be.
Compensating
the
councillors
and
the
mayor
for.
C
C
E
Dear
makes
a
really
good
point:
I
mean
to
try
to
annualize
hours
and
we're
not
specific
for
part-time
people.
It
doesn't
doesn't
compute
in
this
world.
Some
members
of
council
may
spend
20
hours
a
week,
30
hours
a
week
for
hours,
who
knows
how
much
they
spend
and
we'll
get
information
from
the
counselors
through
the
interviews,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day.
Well,
it
would
be
nice
to
be
able
to
do
what
india
is
saying.
I
think
that
doesn't
work.
I
E
You're
you're,
100,
correct
and
you're.
You
will
see
that
as
part
of
the
interviews
and
some
of
the
responses
that
we
do
the
last
couple
times,
we've
done
the
interviews,
it's
very
far-ranging
and
to
try
to
pin
it
in
one
way
to
make
it's
consistent
all
the
way
through
it
doesn't
work
I'll
share
something
else
on
another
list.
E
So
this
exercise
that
we're
undertaking
is
to
see
whether
or
not
the
remuneration
that
we're
providing
members
of
the
council
is
consistent
with
our
compares,
and
we
want
to
get
some
additional
information
that
will
help
us
improve
the
way
council
does
their
job,
and
if
there
are
things
that
we
can
recommend
that
we
think
might
help.
Based
on
the
interview
and
some
of
the
feedback
that
we
get
back
from
our
service,
that
will
be
a
benefit,
and
this
committee
will
really
be
doing
this.
E
It's
this
way
because
it's
the
community
that
is
basically
speaking
here,
the
representatives
of
the
community
in
various
fields
and
when
the
report
goes
through
to
council
and
laura
soon
or
maybe
jordan
will
present
it
it'll,
be
simply
here's
what
you
asked
us
to
do.
Here's
what
we
did
here
are
the
numbers
or
anything
like
that,
but
it
is
an
important
process
and
didn't
do
this.
E
C
Okay,
thanks
tron.
So
if
I
understand
right,
it
sounds
like
question
one.
The
way
it's
currently
phrased
is
probably
the
the
best
way
to
leave
it
and
and
question
two
sounds
like
really
doesn't
serve
us
well
to
have
it
there.
So
we
should
probably
strike
question
two.
Is
there
anybody
opposed
to
doing
that?
C
A
C
C
C
C
I
C
All
right
good,
all
right,
I'm
not
seeing
any
other
so
we'll
I'm
just
going
back
to
the
agenda
to
see
where
we
are
here
all
right.
So
I
think
we
can
accept
those
questions
as
modified
then
on
consent.
Any
objection
to
that
no
perfect!
So
that's
what
we
will
do
and
that
brings
us
back
to
the
agenda
item
eight
now
we're
on
item
8d,
consideration
of
primary
and
alternate
representative
for
the
education
center.
A
I
can
explain
this
one
quickly
in
terms
of
recruitment.
The
committee
city
reaches
out
to
representatives
from
queens
st
lawrence
and
rmc,
and
traditionally
what
happens
is
one
of
those
three
representatives
becomes
the
education
sector
rep
and
the
others
serve
as
alternates
in
case
they
need
to
fill
in.
So
in
this
case
we
have
helen
from
st
lawrence
and
we
had
heather
cole
from
queens,
helen
and
heather
have
discussed,
and
it
has
been
chosen
by
them.
That
helen
will
serve
as
our
primary
rep
and
heather
are
alternate
reps.
A
C
So
a
a
mover
for
accepting
helen
as
primary
and
heather
as
this
alternate
the
secondary
education
sector
rep.
Anyone
wish
to
move
that
indira
moves
seconder,
mary,
jo
seconds.
Thank
you
any
discussion,
I'll
just
say
when
I
introduced
myself.
I
probably
didn't
do
a
very
good
job
at
the
outset,
because
I
just
all
I
said
was
I
was
from
queens,
but
I'm
actually
here,
as
the
labor
council
representatives.
C
A
Do
so
from
the
votes
we
received
6
p.m
and
5
30
p.m.
Both
received
four
votes
and
five
pm
received
three.
So
what
we
could
do
is
a
a
simple
runoff
vote
of
these
three
times,
just
by
a
show
of
hands
and
first
vote,
the
one
with
the
least
will
be
dropped
and
then
we'll
vote
on
the
the
last
two
times.
This
is
yeah.
This
is
just
that's
a
proposal,
so
I'll
leave
it
to
you,
mr
chair
and
the
committee.
If
that's
how
you
wish
to
go,
and
then
I
can
help
run
that.
C
C
F
A
C
C
C
A
C
A
That
sounds
good.
I
will
do
that
and
just
for
jessica
I
will
keep
an
eye
for
if
you,
if
you
use
the
raise
hand,
function
I'll
make
sure
to
confirm
that
your
vote
so
we'll
we'll
start
with
so
two
votes:
everybody,
five
o'clock,
anybody's
preference
is
five
o'clock
all
right,
I'm
seeing
three
hands
and
none
from
jessica,
so
5
30
now.
A
C
Yeah,
I
think
that's
the
unless
anybody
wishes
to
object.
I
think
it's
pretty
obviously
unanimous
there.
So
all
right
so
5
30
is
our
start
time
on
wednesdays
in
the
weeks
of
in
the
draft
agenda
or
sorry
draft
work
plan,
at
least
for
the
next.
While
unless
we
find
out,
we
need
more
meetings
or
fewer
meetings
or
we
we
forgot
that
there
was
a
special
religious
holiday
on
one
of
them
or
something
like
that.
A
C
E
A
C
Sorry,
I'm
just
so
yeah
emotions
and
notice
emotions.
We
have
none
so
that
takes
that
correspondence.
There
was
one
item
listed
there:
correspondence
received
from
their
cochise
regarding
draft
work
plan
and
background
information,
so
everybody
has
received
that
I
believe-
and
the
date
of
the
next
meeting
is,
I
believe
november
3rd
is
the
wednesday
and
the
week
of
november
1st.
A
I
so
it
would
only
be
one
meeting
that
mary,
jo,
would
miss
the
the
one
on
the
17th.
The
one
on
the
20
the
week
of
the
29th
will
actually
be
december.
1St
is
the
date
and
the
meeting
on
the
17th.
It's
a
discussion
about
the
council
questionnaire
and
interviews,
but
that
is
actually
going
to
be
finalized
at
the
following
meeting.
So
mary
jo,
will
still
have
an
opportunity
to
participate
in
that
discussion,
so
I
think
not
to
to
cut
off,
but
I
think
we
may
be
able
to.