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From YouTube: Kingston Ontario - City Council Meeting - March 29, 2017
Description
Special City Council meeting from March 29, 2017. For the full meeting agenda visit https://goo.gl/vb3QiH
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Presentation.
janet
and
I
are
going
to
split
it
up
in
about
half.
I'll,
do
a
general
overview
just
to
give
you
a
little
bit
of
general
context,,
and
I
appreciate
that
you
have
heard
maybe
some
of
this
before.,
something
that
I
may
speak
to
you
about
that.
You
haven't
heard
before,
some
proposals
from
the
province
with
bill
68,
that
is
proposed
to
change
the
accountability
framework.
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Some
of
that
is
changing,
and
I'll
speak
to
it
in
just
a
moment,
and
at
the
very
bottom
of
the
slide,.
You'll
also
see
that
I
also
mention
closed
meeting
investigations..
It's
not
actually
part
of
5.1,,
but
also
added
in
at
approximately
the
same
time
where
municipalities,
all
of
a
sudden,
could
have
people
come
before
them
and
say,
"you
know
what?.
We
don't
think
you
went
into
a
closed
meeting
properly..
We
don't
think
you
followed
your
procedural
bylaw..
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so,.
Here's
some
changes
to
the
municipal
act,,
just
what
I've
said.
bill,
68
just
passed.
Second
reading
at
the
province,
now
been
referred
to
committee
for
final
consideration
and
possible
amendments
and
changes--substantial,
very
significant
changes--to.
The
regime
dealing
with
accountability
and
transparency
here
in
ontario.
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The
integrity
commissioner,
therefore,
can
serve
as
an
important
source
of
ethical,
expertise;,
again,,
someone
who
knows
the
area
and
who
knows
something
about
how
municipal
government
operates,?
Who
knows
that
you
members
of
council,
are
elected
representatives
and
you
have
a
certain
specific
role..
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requests
from
members
of
council
for
advice,
respecting
their
obligations
and
their
other
procedures,
rules
or
policies
of
the
municipality
governing
ethical
conduct:.
So
it's
not
only,
oh,
the
code
of
conduct..
You
can
go
and
ask
the
integrity,
commissioner,
to
talk
about
other
things.
for
instance,
social
media
policy,,
any
other
policy
that.
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So
before
we
look
at
the
specifics,,
I
want
to
acknowledge
a
couple
of
truths
about
public
life
that
I've
seen
in
dealing
with.
Members
of
council.-
the
first
is,
it
is
a
difficult
and
demanding
role,
and
people
who
have
never
run
for
public
office
do
not
always
appreciate
how
demanding
it
is
and,
at
times,.
Thankless.,
a
code
of
conduct
reflects
the
reality
that
the
obligations
that
this
council
has
seen
fit
to
put
in
place
are
higher
than
they
are
for
the
average
citizen
who
is
coming
into
contact
with
city
services..
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It
avoids
the
constant
bombardment.
Of,
perhaps,
small
complaints,,
frivolous
complaints,,
unfounded
complaints..
There
are
protections
built
in
for
members;
otherwise,.
You
would
be
spending
all
your
time,
perhaps,
fending,
off
frivolous
complaints
from
people
who
might
have
an
agenda
or
political
view,
that's
different
from
yours..
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so,
on
this
slide,
you'll
see
some
of
those
statements
of
principle.
being
conscientious:.
This
does
not
mean
that
the
integrity
commissioner,
is
your
supervisor
or
that
people
can
complain,.
"This
councillor
didn't
phone
me
back
in
an
hour
and
didn't
meet
certain
service
principles.".
It's
not
what
that
means..
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Spirit
of
the
laws?"
I
tend
to
agree
that
would
be
a
useful,
amendment,
and
I--.
It
may
be
that
at
some
point,
you
may
wish
to
think
about
some
amendments..
So
I
raise
that
and
thank
the
councillor
who
raised
it..
I
think
it's
a
reasonable
add
that
I
will
leave
for
your
consideration
and
your
debate.
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Draft
code
of
conduct
that
you
see
is
in
your
current
code
of
conduct,,
but
then
there
are
specific
provisions,,
many
of
which
come
from
other
codes
of
conduct
in
use
around
the
province,
that
we
are
recommending
to
you,
and
some
of
them
reflect
your
obligations
under
workplace
harassment.
Legislation;.
The
discrimination
harassment
in
section
10,
as
an
example.,
improper
use
of
influence
is
an
area
that
councillors
are
often
tempted
by
others
to
enter
into,,
and
this
is
a
significant
section
that
gets
applied
a
lot
in
public
life.
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but,.
The
benefit
of
having
it
stated
is
that
it
reflects
the
law.
for
example,
in
ontario,.
Conflict
of
interest
is
a
common
law
idea,,
as
well
as
under
the
municipal
conflict
of
interest
act,,
and
it's
often
at
the
heart
of
everything
that
a
public
official
does
that
can
get
them
into
trouble.
If
there's
a
conflict
of
interest.,
it's
something
that
the
public
has
a
keen
nose,
for,,
and
so
the
ability
to
have
this
in
your
code
of
conduct
puts
it
right
in
the
wheelhouse
of
your
integrity.
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no
question
is
too
small.
If
it's
troubling
you
in
any
way
at
all,,
it
can
be
brought
forward,
and
there
it
is,.
You
have
the
benefit
of
advice,
and
you
have
the
benefit
of
an
opinion
in
writing
that
will
then,.
As
you
will
see,
when
we
get
to
the
complete
protocol,,
protect
you
if
somebody
complains
later.,
so
that's
an
important
one.
I
wanted
to
highlight.
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So,
policy
is
meaningless
unless
there's
some
way
to
make
sure
that
people
can
be
encouraged
to
follow
that
policy,
and
that's
why
that's
in
your
code.,
the
idea
is
that,.
You
at
least
have
one
place
where
it's
very
clear;.
What
are
the
rules,,
what
happens
if
I
breach
the
rules,
and
that
it
will
be
covered
by
advice.
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cooperation
with
investigations
and
anti-reprisal:.
This
is
to
ensure
that
obviously,
investigations
can
be
conducted
in
a
meaningful
way..
As
you
probably
know,.
The
municipal
act
provides
the
power
for
integrity
commissioners
to
go
into
any
city
place,,
to
request
any
information
in
the
control
of
the
city,,
and
this
is
the
countervailing
piece
that
requires
some
degree
of
cooperation
and
to
make
sure
that
anyone
who
is
the
subject
of
an
investigation
doesn't
try
to
thwart
it,
because
that
would.
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For
resolution.
and
they
tend
to
be
rare--few
and
far
between--but-
that
the
public
actually
is
forgiving
of
breaches;,
that
the
details
of
the
breach
are
put
out
in
front
of
council,.
Some
kind
of
action
may
or
may
not
be
taken,,
and
sometimes
it's
never
needed,
because
somebody
decides
they
will
apologize,
for
example..
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That,
even
though
a
policy
allows
a
councillor
to
do
something,
if
the
public
hates
what's
happening,,
they
will
punish
council
over
and
over
for
doing,
it.
and
I'm
not
saying
you're
at
risk
of
that,.
I
am
pointing
out
that
by
actually
setting
a
higher
standard,,
you
are
creating
a
document
that
has.
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I
think
the
question
was
asked,
"how.
Will
the
public
know?"?
This
would
go
on
the
website..
This
is
what
other
municipalities
do,
and
I
expect
yours
would
do
the
same
hard
copies
at
the
clerk's
office.
you
try
to
make
it
be
one
point
of
contact..
It
goes
to
the
clerk,,
the
clerk
forwards
it
to
the
integrity,
commissioner,
integrity.
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Pleasure;
a
fixed
term.:
these
are
all
critical
pieces
of
independence.
it
means--
and
I
would
recommend
to
you
that
you
hire
for
one
term
only
because,.
What
do
we
all
do
when
we
know
that
we
might
be
up
for
a
new
contract?
well,,
maybe
we,
even
subconsciously,
change
our
behaviour.,
we're
all
subject
to
conflict
of
personal
interest
versus
public
duty.
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and
so,.
These
are
elements
that
allow
for
that
independence,.
The
report
directly
to
council.-
again,
the
integrity
commissioner,
does
not
report
to
any
one
individual
in
government,,
it's
to
you
as
a
whole.
and
it's
a
relationship
between
the
whole
of
council
and
that
integrity
commissioner.,
you
own,
the
code;,
you
own,
the
power
to
decide
sanctions.
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Of
us.
um,,
I
think
that
there
might
be
cases
where
we
may
want
to
pose
a
hypothetical
to
try
to
get
an
understanding
of
how
the
policy
might
be
applied,
and
I
think
that,,
that's
reasonable,,
but
what
we
are
not
here
to
talk
about
tonight
are
specific
individuals
around
this
table,
specific
cases
or
specific
investigations..
So
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
everyone's
on
the
same
page
on
that.
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John
mascarin:,
through
you,
mr.
mayor
to
councillor
neill.
my
view--and,
I
think
you
know
what
I'm
going
to
say,
councillor
neill,,
because
I've
said
to
you--I
actually
looked
at
the
question
before
and
actually,
janet,
and
I
spoke
about
it
just
very
briefly.
When
you
asked
us.,
I
feel
it's
still
under
the
shroud--under,
the
cone
of
silence--of,
the
confidential
information.
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Meeting
and
that's
where
you've
gotten
the
information--it's
in
a
report,
in
correspondence
and
documents--then,
I
still
think
it's
under
that
shroud
and
you
really
shouldn't
be
going
and
disclosing
it..
There
might
be
rumours,
allegations
or
maybe
all
sorts
of
things
out
there..
There
might
be
all
kinds
of
things
on
social
media,
uh,
that
may
speak
kind
of
towards
it,
but
not
exactly,,
and
I
think
it
still
remains
under
the
cone
of
silence.
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You
give
her
all
the
facts,
all
the
reasonable
known
facts
at
the
time,
and
she
could
say,
"in
this
particular
instance,.
I
don't
see
a
problem."
and
that
will
then
serve
to
absolve
you.
If
there's
any
allegation
that
comes
forward
and
says,
"why,
were
you
taking
part
in
the
united
way,?
Why
were
you
taking
part
in
whatever
community
event
fund
raising.
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Members
that,
professionals
that
are
in
the
employ
of
the
municipality
as
well
by
professional
designation,
are
also
have
codes
with
respect
to
that
professional
designation,
and
that
serves
as
well
as
a
professional
guide.
With
respect
to
the
conduct
within
the
framework
of
that
professional
accreditation..
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but,,
where
we
are
in
resounding
agreement,
is
that
a
remote
conflict
of
interest
will
not
be
treated
the
same
way
as
one
that
is
not
remote..
A
de
minimis
conflict
of
interest
will
not
be
treated
the
same
way
as
one
where
there
is
a
significant
enough
amount
of
money
at
stake
to
give
it
a
different,
context.
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Now,,
could
the
scope
be
broadened??
Could
it
be
much
further
out
than
that??
Would
it
be
everybody
in
his
ward,
or
everyone
in
the
municipality?,
and
then
that's
where
I
put
the
brakes
on.,
I
said,
"hold
on,,
that's
getting
a
little
too
far."
and
I
see
it
as
the
umbrella
has
sort
of
closed
a
little
and
the.
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And
be
counted
in
the
negative,,
because
that's
how
the
municipal
act
works.
uh,!
So
that's
a
really
interesting
situation.
again,.
I
think
you'd
be
protected
by
going
to
the
integrity
commissioner
and
putting
the
question
to
the
integrity
commissioner
saying,
"this
is
what
might
happen."
so
you're
saying,
in
fact,
"if.
I
step
away
from
the
table--from,
the
council
chamber--and,
I'm
not
there
when
the
vote
is
called,.
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John
mascarin:
best
thing,,
you
go
to
the
integrity
commissioner
and
get
advice
on
what
to
do,,
and
then
you
follow
that
advice,
which
will
then
hold
you
in
good
stead.
If
anyone
should
bring
a
complaint,
and
then
you'd
be
immune
to
any
sanction,.
If
you
follow
the
advice,
the
integrity
commissioner
has
given
you.
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Um,,
if
a
councillor
goes
through
a
situation
where
they
are
found
to
be
in
breach,,
and
it
is
brought
up
that
it
is
happening
quite
frequently
and
has
been
for
the
last
20
years,
a
councillor
may
be
told
that
no
one's
complained
about
those
individuals.
so,.
What
do
you
do
in
a
situation
where
one
person
is
found
in
breach,,
yet
everybody's
doing
it??
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mascarin
describes
as
the
wild
west
with
everybody
laying
complaints
against
one
another.
again,,
it's
a
bit
common
sense,,
but
usually
you
would
knock
on
the
door
of
someone
and
say,
"you
know
what,,
I'm
declaring
conflicts
over
here,.
I
sought
advice.
I'm
seeing
that
you're
not..
Could
you
explain
to
me
why
you're
not?,
I'm
confused.
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Tack
on
problems
of
perhaps
conflicts
going,
undeclared.
and
ultimately,.
If
members
of
the
public
see
that
members
are
not
abiding
by
their
obligations,,
they
may
take
notice,
and
there
may
be
more
than
one
kind
of
repercussion,
as
we
saw
at
the
beginning.
you
know,
in
that
pie
of
accountability?.
Remember.
I
showed
that
to
you?,
there's
legal,,
so
mcia.
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Janet
leiper:
there
is
another
route,
and
that
is
in
the
complaint.
Protocol,
and
that's
by
resolution
of
this
group.-
if
this
group
decides
that
something
is
so
egregious,,
they
can
refer
it
to
the
integrity.
Commissioner,
for
an
investigation.,
as
you
hear,
bill,
68
would
include
of
your
own
motion
complaints..
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To
set
up
the
system.
councillor,
mclaren:
okay,
thank
you.
now,.
The
next
question
has
to
do
with
a
lot
of
these
terms
that
are
here.,
and
I
know
that
a
lot
of
people
have
different
interpretations
of
the
same
word
and
just
googling.
Most
of
these
words,.
A
lot
of
dictionaries
have
different
definitions
of
things
like
high
and
standard
and
conduct
and
good
governance,,
conscientious,,
diligent,,
integrity,
accountability
and
transparency.,
and
I
notice
that
they're
not
actually
defined
here,,
even
in
a
broader
general
sense.
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You
have
to
interpret
them
together.,
it's
not
necessarily
always
the
most
beneficial
thing
to
do
just
to
go
to
a
dictionary,,
because
you'd
be
right,.
They
could
have
different
determinations
and,
as
ms.
leiper
said,
different
people
may
have
different
interpretations..
We
looked
at
it..
There
are
certain
defined
terms
in
there,,
but
there
are
not
a
whole
bunch
of
defined
terms
because
we
think
that
the
general
understanding
of
them
is
understandable.
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The
court
cases
have
talked
about
it,
and
I
appreciate
what
you're
saying.
you're
saying.
We
may
not
have
read
the
same
things
that
you
have
read,
the
public
may
not
know,,
but
again,.
We
thought
that
fiduciary
had
a
very
specific
connotation,,
meaning
and
application
as
it
is
set
out.,
which
is
really
a
trustee
to
do
an
act
in
the
public
interest,
and
not
to
do
a
whole
bunch
of
things.
That
would
be
like
a
breach
of
trust,
municipal
corruption;.
All
those
things.
C
C
C
K
K
D
K
A
A
D
D
D
It's
going
to
be
your
rules,,
while
in
here,
and
integrity,
commissioners,
don't
tend
to
take
complaints
for
things
that
happen
in
this
room;.
That
would
undercut
the
authority
of
the
mayor
who's
in
the
chair..
It's
the
mayor's
job
to
impose
and
enforce
those
rules,
while
you're
in
active
debate.
so,.
It's
not
a
conflict.
K
D
D
Bylaw
and
the
chair's
prerogative,
for
example,
to
require
somebody
to
leave
or
to
deal
with
a
matter,,
historically,,
traditionally,
integrity.
Commissioners,
leave
that
to
the
chair.
now,
that
doesn't
mean
that,
things
that
happen.
While
the
chair
is
not
in
session
or
while
somebody's
over
there
or
somebody
goes
and
insults
someone..
We
have
seen
those
examples
in
other
municipalities
where
code
of
conduct
jurisdiction
was
accepted.
K
K
D
Janet
leiper:,
we
talked
about
this
question
and
I
think
the
other
part
of
the
question,,
if
I
can
just
put
it
all
together,
was,
could
you
ask
staff
to
volunteer
for
you
to
put
a
sign
on
their
lawn,
and
we
both
found
ourselves
in
agreement
that
the
line
would
be
asking
staff
to
do
something
active
on
your
campaign,,
but
that
of
course,
you're
able
to
canvass
door-to-door.?
That's
you
out
there
as
a
candidate..
D
It
would
be--
and
again,
you'd
come
back
to
your
integrity.
Commissioner,
if
you
had
a
question
to
make
sure
you
were
covered
by
this
advice,,
but
if
you
were
to
ask
me,,
I
would
say,
of
course
you
can
campaign.
now,
you'd
want
to
be
sensitive
to
the
staff
person
involved.,
so
again,
facts
will
rule..
D
Member
that
you
might
know
they'd
be
uncomfortable
even
having
you
come
and
stand
on
their
porch,
for
whatever
reason,
for
something
you
were
working
on
together
or
for
some
reason
that
they
could
not
easily
disentangle
their
private
life
from
their
public
staff-councillor
relationship.
in
which
case,.
If
you
knew
it
was
their
house,,
you
might
give
it
a
pass.
D
D
D
Culture.,
I'm
sure
all
of
you,
as
councillors
get
asked,,
or
maybe
you
have
gotten
asked
for
years,
"would.
You
please
write
me
a
reference
letter;.
Would
you
please
support
this
funding
application?"
the
city
of
toronto
brought
itself
down
on
the
law
in
this
way,
actually
created
a
policy
on
reference
letters
where,.
If
you
were
a
sitting
councillor,,
you
could
write
a
reference
letter
if
you
had
had
a
relevant
employment
or
student-teacher
relationship.
D
D
so,.
Do
you
need
a
policy??
Not
necessarily..
You've
got
an
improper
use
of
influence
clause.,
but
it
causes
you
to
ask
the
right,
question,
and
you're
asking
the
right,
question;
"is.
It
part
of
my
job
description
as
councillor
to
help
people
get
jobs,
and
what
kind
of
quid
pro
quo
relationship
might
that
set
up?"
so,
relevant
relationship
is
probably
going
to
be
fine..
D
You
might
do
it
on
your
personal
letterhead
so
that
nobody
later--
say,
the
person
who
didn't
get
the
job
found
out
that
you'd
written
that
letter.
well,.
That
might
then
in
turn,
spark
a
complaint
that,,
that's
not
the
job
of
a
councillor
to
go,
get
jobs
for
that
person
over
there..
Why
do
you
need
the
headache??
K
And,
last
one,,
section
14.1
makes
it
sound
like
we
cannot
give
any
information
over
the
city,
phones
related
to
election
campaigns
or
anything
like
that.,
and
I
know
that
conversations
tend
to
shift
over
a
lot
of
things
and
sometimes,.
You
can
have
a
regular--or
like
a
legitimate--conversation
that
drifts
over
to
something
else
and
at
that
point,
it
becomes
almost
counter
to
courtesy
to
say,
"no,.
I
can't
talk
about
this
anymore",
or,
"call
me
at
my
other
number,,
we'll
talk
about
that
later",
or
something
like
that..
It
almost
seems
a
little
bit
counter
to
the
courtesy.
K
D
Janet
leiper:
again,,
it's
all
about
that
boundary.
and,
as
you
start
to
think
about
the
practicalities,
you're,
coming
down
to
things
that
other
councillors
have
wrestled
with
and,
in
fact,.
Many
have
done
exactly
that..
They
have
separate
social
media
presences,
separate
accounts,,
separate
phones,,
because
you
don't
want
the
person
to
come.
D
Away
from
it
misunderstanding
candidate
and
councillor
together.
now,,
does
it
mean
you
can't
refer
somebody
to
your
website
if
they
happen
to
call
you
on
your
phone?,
there's
some
practicalities
in
it
and
again,.
This
is
a
huge
area
of
advice
in
other
municipalities,
because
the
facts
differ
from
person
to
person..
D
D
K
K
K
A
A
A
A
We
don't
really
know
how
it
will
be
applied
until
after
we
hire
the
particular
integrity
commissioner..
I'm
just
wondering
if
you
can
speak
to
that
concern..
How
do
we--to
your
point
about
consistency--how?
Do
we
ensure
consistency
if,
for
example,
the
integrity
commissioner
changes
from
person-to-person,,
and
that
would
change
the
interpretation
application
of
that
principle?.
C
C
C
Under
a
very
different
scope.,
you
have
to
do
everything
in
an
open
public
setting,
in
an
open
public
forum,,
the
open
meeting
rule
under
239.,
it's
very
different
from
how,
you
know,,
the
federal
and
provincial
governments,
are.
so,.
I
think
what
I
was
urging
is
that
you
get
someone
who
is
very
familiar
with
those
three
branches,
and
I
know
sometimes
it's
very
tempting
to
go,
"well.
C
C
Human
rights
complaints;-
they
might
not
know
how
you
operate.,
they
might
not
know
the
rules
dealing
with
municipalities.
for
instance,.
I
just
mentioned
the
open
meeting
rule,
the
indoor
management
rule,,
the
self-help
remedy;,
all
things
that
you
deal
with
on
a
day-to-day
basis
that
someone
else
doesn't.
and
they
need
to
know
how
those
things
operate..
A
So,
does
the
integrity,
commissioner
need
to
be
from
a
different
community?,
so
you've
made
the
comment
earlier
that
you're
integrity,
commissioner,
for
certain
municipalities
that
are
far
from
where
you
are.
so,?
Is
there
a
general
rule
or
practice
the
integrity,
commissioner,
should
be
a
couple
of
steps
removed
from
your
community,,
or
is
it
better
that
they
actually
have
some
knowledge
of
the
community?.
C
Their
ethical
regime.,
I
said,
in
every
municipality
that
I'm
an
integrity
commissioner,,
none
of
them
are
close
to
where
I
live..
None
of
them
are
close
to
where
my
office
is,,
and
I
did
that
on
purpose,
because
I
didn't
want
to
run
into
issues
with
my
firm,
possibly
doing
business.,
but
that's
my
rule
and
I
figure.
If
I'm
going
to
be
the
integrity
commissioner,,
I
should
at
least
follow
some
rules
of
integrity
and
ethics..
C
It's
always
a
great
question.
Though..
Do
you
want
someone
who
knows
what's
going
on
here?
Who
may
have
had
some
great
awareness,
who's
fighting
with
whom,?
What
are
the
embroils
that
people
are
involved
in,,
or
do
you
want
someone
with
an
absolutely
clean
slate
who
doesn't
know
the
first
thing
about
it
and
comes
in
and
looks
at
it
and
says,
"well?
Here
is
the
code
of
conduct
that
the
council
has
passed,
and
it
says
these
things..
C
C
It
that
way.,
sometimes
you
just
have
to
be
face-to-face,,
I
get
that,,
but
there
are
ways
to
get
around
that
and
I
don't
know,.
I
think
it's
better
to
have
a
clean
slate.
but
I'll
tell
you,.
I
was
recently
asked
this
question
where
I
was
investigating
someone
who,,
let's
just--I'll,
say
it--has
been
a
repeat
offender..
C
C
D
Janet
leiper:,
I
think
the
point
to
be
made
is
there
are
different
issues
and
pros
and
cons
with
somebody,
local
and
somebody
from
away.
there's
at
least
one
integrity.
Commissioner
in
canada,
who
was
appointed
and
the
press
noted
the
fact
that,.
That
integrity
commissioner
had
actually
made
a
donation
to
the
campaign
of
one
of
the
members
and
therefore
was
conflicted
out
of
any
complaint
involving
that
member.
D
D
D
D
D
D
Probably
80%
of
your
context
with
your
members
should
be
advisory
and
educational
because,
otherwise,.
If
it's
80-20,
the
other
way,,
you
can't
help
it,
you'll
be
seen
as
a
cop..
You
will
not
be
seen
as
the
advisor,
as
the
guide,
as
the
person
with
the
judgement
and
the
experience
and
all
the
rest
of
it.
A
D
D
A
L
L
A
L
L
L
D
What
we
know
from
psychological,
social
science
research
is
that,
when
we
have
a
conflict,,
it's
very
hard
for
us
to
see
it..
That's
why
having
the
objective
third
party
with
experience
helps
you.
and
in
fact,
you
kind
of
take
good
faith
out
of
the
equation,
and
it's
just,.
What
are
the
facts,?
What
does
it
look
like??
D
L
L
C
C
C
C
C
C
L
C
Is
that
what
I'm
getting?
john
mascarin:
that's
correct.,
you're,
specifically
exempted.,
so
section
4h,,
I
think,
of
the
municipal
conflict
of
interest
act.
Says,
"you
may
have
a
pecuniary.
Interest--You
may
have
a
deemed
pecuniary
interest,,
but
you
don't
have
to
comply
with
the
requirements
under
section
5
to
declare
and
then
not
participate,,
not
vote
and
not
attempt
to
influence
the
voting.".
L
L
L
L
A
A
M
And
the
human
rights
code
would
provide
any
individual
with
protection
from
sexual
harassment
or
harassment,
as
defined
in
the
human
rights
code
or
discrimination,
as
defined
in
the
human
rights
code..
So
I
think
those
provisions
apply
to
every
citizen
in
the
province,,
and
so
I
think
there
are
certain
rights
under
that
legislation
that
you
would
have
if
you
felt
you
were
in
a
discrimination
or
harassment,
situation.
L
Councillor
holland:,
so
what's
the
employer's
role
in
all
of
that
then?
like,?
Would
that
be
a
councillor
going
as
a
sort
of
free
agent
or
self-employed
person,,
or
would
they
be
going
with
the
protection
of
the
organization,
the
corporation
of
the
city
of
kingston,
in
seeking
any
kind
of
formal
reconciliation
for
an.
M
M
C
It's
a
recent
decision
that
came
out
last
summer
and
I'd
be
pleased
to
send
it
to
ms.
nicholson,
and
she
may
want
to
make
it
available
to--.
It
says
exactly
was
ms.
nicholson.
Just
said,,
which
is,
a
council
member
is
not
an
employee,
nor
is
in
an
employment
relationship
with
the
municipality,.
But
there
are
other
safeguards.
H
H
H
H
D
Janet
leiper:,
I
think,
you've
hit
on
exactly
the
right
point,,
which
is,
it's
very
important,
to
understand
the
roles
and
responsibilities,
and
it's
what
protects
everybody
to
make
it
clear,
and
that's
why
integrity,
commissioner
reports
directly
to
council
and
not
up
through
the
cao.?
If
you
look
at
your
org
chart,
when
you
redo
it,,
you
would
see.
D
That
and
it
reflects
the
reality
on
the
ground.,
and
so
for
that
reason,,
the
role
of
staff
is
merely
to
maybe
identify,
"oh,.
This
is
a
code
of
conduct,
matter,,
there's
who
you
talk
to,,
please
don't
tell
me
more
about
it,
because
I'm
not
governed
by
secrecy
in
the
municipal
act,,
but
that
person
is
and
that
person's
advice
protects
you.".
L
I
understand,
I'm
not
an
employee
of
the
city
[laughing],.
Maybe
it's
different--but
recognize
that
now
everyone
uses
a
cellphone.,
they
use
it
for
their
personal
use,,
and
so
there
are
policies
in
place
that
say,
"okay,.
You
can
use
this
phone
for
your
personal
use.".
You
can
contribute
towards
the
bill
and
that
kind
of
offsets
any
potential
conflict
between
using
it
for
your
work
and
using
it
at
home,.
So
it
was
more
an
operations
question
really
about
whether
or
not
that
would
be
something--.
D
Janet
leiper:
and
that
really,,
that
is,
the
role
councillor--through
you
mr.
mayor--of
advice
to
figure
out
what
are
practical,
workable
solutions
that
fit
within
that
spirit
of
that
code
of
conduct.
so,.
I
don't
know
how
your
phones
here
work.,
are
they
provided
by
the
city??
Do
they
provide
all
the
maintenance?
do
they--is
all
the
information
backed
up
on
their
servers?
D
N
C
N
N
But
if
that
person's
apparent
conflict
was
to
go
to
a
different
integrity,
commissioner,,
that
person
would
be
told
they
could
vote..
So
you
could
hypothetically
have
a
situation
where
a
difference
of
opinion
could
basically
be
the
deciding
vote
on
potentially
a
$250,000,000
project
in
a
municipality..
N
N
C
C
C
D
so,
if
a
person
comes
ahead
of
time,
and
it's
a
close-vote
situation
and
the
integrity
commissioner
says,
"look,,
I'm
going
to
give
you
my
best
advice
based
on
all
the
facts.
You
tell
me,
and
my
experience.",
but
an
integrity
commissioner,
doesn't
tell
you,
you
can't
vote.
the
integrity.
Commissioner
says,
"I,
advise
you
not
to,,
and
there
are
the
risks.
If
you
do.",
we
come
back
to
the
point
that
you
own
the
code
of
conduct..
D
It's
your
decision,
ultimately,
what
to
do
with
the
benefit
of
the
advice,
knowing
what
the
risks
might
be.
and
so,.
If
it's
a
close
call
and
you
say,
"you,
know
what,
this
just
matters
way
too
much
for
me..
I
hear
what
you're
saying,
integrity
commissioner,,
I'm
going
to
take
the
risk."
now,.
Some
people
have
taken
that
risk
and
ended
up
spending
$100,000
defending
themselves
in
court
on
a
municipal
conflict
of
interest,
act,
application
that
they
lost
their
seat
over,
or
could
lose
their
seat
over..
D
The
other
risk
is,,
it's
not
a
pecuniary,
interest,,
somebody,
or
10
people
come
forward
with
a
complaint
that
say--especially
on
a
close
one,,
because
those
are
the
ones
the
public,
watch--it,
says,
"you
breached
the
code
of
conduct,
complaint:
investigate."
and
then
your
integrity,
commissioner,
makes
the
ruling..
But
as
john
said,
there
are
cases
where
it
might
be
almost
what
we
call
like
a
law
school
moot
court
question
where
people
can
line
up
on
either
sides
of
it..
D
D
N
Councillor
boehme:,
so
with
that
in
mind,
then,,
I
mean,,
essentially
a
difference
of
opinion
could
occur
between
any
two
integrity.
Commissioners
obviously.
you
mentioned
that
the
supreme
court
of
canada
has
nine
judges
and
it
comes
to
five-four.
so,.
Is
there
anything
coming
up
in
the
bill
68
to
look
at
maybe
having
a
tribunal,,
because
again,
you're
coming
down
to
one
person's
opinion
which
could
be,
"it's,
sunny,
today",
and
then
tomorrow,,
"it's,
not."
and
then--?
N
N
N
C
C
C
Full
case
because
I've
been
asked
a
lot,
"well,,
why
didn't
you
come
and
ask
me?"
and
I
say,
"well,,
because
the
evidence
that
you
put
forward--the
documents
that
you
gave
me--just
didn't
seem
to
substantiate
anything.".
I
took
that
as,
"why.
Are
you
withholding
stuff??
You
should've
come
forward.".
C
C
D
N
N
N
Applying
this
policy,
we
could
theoretically
have
many
votes
where
you
can
have
far
fewer
than
six
or
seven
councillors
step
out,,
especially
recently
bylaw
votes.
We
can
think.
and
so,.
How
does
this
policy
sort
of
look
and
apply
when
we're
going
to
potentially
end
up
tightening
the
reins
on
this
in
a
sense,,
but
getting
down
to
the
point
where
we've
got
two
or
three
people
in
here
voting
on
issues
and
sort
of,,
I
guess,.
How
does
it
deal
with
that?.
C
C
C
N
N
D
D
D
D
D
C
N
Councillor
boehme:
okay,
and
would
a
recorded
conversation
be
the
same
as
written,
proof?,
sorry,
written,
or
is
it--
like,.
I
guess
if
you're
in
conversation
with
somebody
and
you
record
it
with
their
knowledge,,
would
that
count
the
same
as
having
a
written
statement,
or
is
that
not
really
valid?.
C
O
D
D
D
D
D
D
D
D
D
C
C
C
C
And
you
may
say,
"yes.
Clearly
it's
not
near
me
at
all,,
I'm
okay,!
It's
not
going
to
have
any
impact
on
me."
and
all
of
a
sudden,.
There's
a
motion
at
council
to
extend
the
road.
all
of
a
sudden,
oh,.
It
may
impact
you..
So
everything
is
very
fact-
driven,
very
fact-specific,
and
it's
very
hard
to
give
any
more.
O
D
D
D
D
C
C
so,
once
an
integrity
commissioner,
has
concluded
the
investigation,
or
has
not
dealt
with
it,
or
the
time
to
deal
with.
It
has
expired--so,
those
three
things:
happened--then
someone
could
apply
to
the
ontario
ombudsman
and
say,
"I.
Think
I
have
a
problem
with
this.".
Could
you
review
the
decision
making
process,?
Could
you
review
this?",
and
so
the
ontario
ombudsman
has
jurisdiction
in
that
limited
scope.
P
P
P
P
C
C
C
System
is
wrong
what
they're
proposing.!
So
one
of
the
things
that
I
said
when
I
spoke
to
the
province
about
it--one
of
their
policy.
Folks,
let
us
have
their
ear--I
said,
"I'm,
really
surprised
that
you're
letting
the
integrity
commissioners'
weigh
into
the
municipal
conflict
of
interest
act.".
It's
never
actually
been
like
that..
It's
always
been
an
elector
who
goes
to
the
court..
I
said,
"I
think
it
was
set
up.
C
C
C
D
D
D
A
P
Yeah,-
and
I
totally
agree
with
your
comment-
that
we
are
somewhat
ahead-
probably
the
majority
of
municipalities
out
there,
because
I
know
for
a
fact--
I've
been
told
my
colleagues
on
amo
that
they,
in
fact,
have
taken
our
code
of
conduct
from
our
website,
and
they're,
using
that
as
a
template
for
their
own,,
and
that's
good
to
know
that
we've
got
something
to
offer
out
there..
So
it
certainly
will
be
an
interesting
discussion
friday,.
C
Q
Q
D
D
Q
Q
D
D
Tell
me
how
this
works,?
What
could
I
do?"
and
the
advice
can
be
given,
"oh,
you're,
a
member
of
staff?,
tell
your
supervisor,.
Have
it
documented.",
or
maybe
it's
somebody
who
has
a
mentor
or
a
guide
or
someone
they
trust.,
it's
somebody--,
it's
just
giving
it
to
a
third
person
who
has
some
interest
in
the
wellbeing
of
the
complainant
to
assist
them.
Q
Q
Q
Q
Q
D
Convert
a
formal
investigation
into
an
informal
complaint
with
the
consent
of
everybody
involved.,
and
I
can
tell
you
there
have
been
times
when
I've
had
complaints
where
I
have
said
to
the
complainant,
"look,.
If
I
approach
the
councillor
and
invite
them
to
ask
me
for
advice
on
the
point,,
would
you
be
satisfied?"
because,?
That's
part
of
the
relationship,.
The
relationship
is
to
try
to
resolve
things
wherever
possible.,
not
everything
is,,
but
many
things
are.
D
Q
D
Janet
leiper:
well,
and
I
think
it's--again,,
because
it's
relatively
new
to
this
municipality--but
any
complaint
begins
once
it's
classified
as
in
jurisdiction.
if
it
hasn't
been
dismissed
for
other
reasons,.
The
copy
of
the
summary
of
the
complaint
or
a
copy
of
material
goes
to
the
councillor,
and
that's
a
really
key
point
in
time
for
the
councillor
to
say,
"oh,.
I
never
thought
of
it.
This
way",,
or,
"oh,,
here's
some
information,",
or,
"I
would
be
willing
to
meet
with
the
person."
again,.
It
doesn't
have
to
be.
D
D
Is
to
come
back
to
council
and
report
generally
on
the
work,,
and
you
have
seen
some
reports
because
you
haven't
had
a
complaint
protocol
where
something's
been
dismissed,,
but
all
the
materials
anonymized,
because
it
has
always
struck
me
as
fair
and
open
to
at
least
say,.
This
is
what
happened,
but
there's
no
need
to
publish
names
if
there
is
no
finding
of
a
breach
or
it's
without
jurisdiction..
D
Q
Q
Q
Q
D
D
I
mean,.
I
suppose
you
could
ask
the
integrity,
commissioner,
to
provide
you
with
some
information
about
similarly
sized
cities,
but
remember,
everybody's
on
a
different
stage
of
the
curve.
In
terms
of
adoption
of
these
policies,
and
in
some
places,
they
spike
way
up
depending
on
what's
happening
in
office,,
and
then
they
go
back
down..
D
Q
I
I
I
I
I
C
C
C
I
I
I
I
I
C
C
C
D
D
D
D
C
C
C
C
C
C
G
C
C
D
H
H
H
D
D
G
C
C
C
A
N
Boehme.
thank
you,,
your
worship,
and
through
you.,
just
a
quick
questions--a
couple
of
quick
questions.
Actually--In
regards
to
this.
in
your
opinion,.
Would
it
make
easier
to
follow
these
policies
if
councillors
were
full
time,
as
opposed
to
part
time,,
seeing
as
then
they
wouldn't
be
pulled
in
multiple
different
directions?
N
N
C
C
D
N
D
N
N
N
N
N
Having
examples
built
into
this
policy.,
if
we're
confused,
my
fear
is,,
do
you
also
agree
that
the
average
person
may
be
more
confused?
and
have
we
actually
fixed
anything,,
and
do
you
think
we
can
do
better??
Do
you
think
we
can
make
this
more
clear,
because,
we're
supposed
to
follow
this,,
but
we
seem
to
be
more
confused
than
ever,.
So
can
we
make
this
better?.
D
N
N
Could.,
what
would
be
the
mechanism
to
kick
this
back??
I
guess,
to
have
some
concrete
sort
of
examples,
realizing
they
would
not
be
all
encompassing,,
but
it
would
give
some
clarity
to
some
of
the
definitions
in
these,
because
we're
still
dealing
with
something
that
seems
not
black
and
white
but
gray
and
subjective.
N
D
D
D
N
D
Janet
leiper:,
I
don't
know
how
helpful
it
would
be,
and
it
could
be
confusing
because
somebody
might
try
to
argue;
well.
Those
are
the
only
conflicts
that
this
council
has
put
in
their
code
of
conduct,,
so
I'm
not
any
of
those
three,.
So
I'm
okay..
I
would
worry
about
concrete
thinking.
If
you
used
a
number
of
examples.
N
C
C
Situation,
and
then
it
seems
to
come
back
and
it's
a
little
different
than
that.".
I
go,
"hold
on,.
If
I
had
actually
known
that
one
key
point,,
the
whole
thing
would
have
changed."
and
so,.
Everything
is
very
fact
specific,
and
if
you
have
any
doubts,,
you
should
go
to
the
integrity.
Commissioner
and
the
integrity
commissioner,
can
say,
"look,.
This
is
the
best
advice.
C
I
think
mr.
hunt
has
indicated
that
there
is
some
amount
of
money
that
you
can
go
and
get
an
independent
assessment.
If
you
don't
agree
with
that.,
and
I
understand
what
you're
saying.
you
may
say,
"wow,
my--"--trying
to
think
of
an
example--someone
who
has
a
printing
company
in
the
municipality,
okay?
C
C
C
C
N
D
N
N
Issue,,
we
will
always
go
back
to
the
policy
which
means,,
if
it's
not
in
the
policy,,
it's
kind
of
like
it
was
in
a
report
somewhere
that
maybe
that
person
didn't
read..
So
if
we're
always
going
back
to
the
policy,,
does
it
not
make
sense
to
have
something
in
there?,
because
we
seem
to
have
heard
it
from
most
people
that
we
haven't
clearly
defined
it,
and
I
think--I
know--
I'm
more
confused
than
ever,
and
I
want
to
do
the
right
thing,,
I'm
just
not
sure
anymore.
What
that
is.
D
D
D
A
A
D
D
Anonymized
of
advice,
every
year,
put
them
in
to
faqs,
report
to
council
and
then
put
them
on
the
website
so
that
you
would
build
a
set
of,,
here's
how
it's
being
applied
here.
and
that
allows
you
also
to
debate
that..
So
that
may
be
a
way
to
deal
with
it
without
kind
of
muddying.
Your
code
of
conduct.
A
A
D
A
A
D
D
C
Responsibility
of
putting
together
the
first
draft
and
she
said,
"look,.
I
think
I'm
going
to
look
at
this
and
this..
Why
don't
you
have
a
look
at
it,
and
what
do
you
think?"
and
I
said,
"that's
great,?
Why
don't
you
put
something
together
and
we'll
look
at,,
you
know,
best
practices,
things
that
we
think
have
worked
or
not
worked
in
other
municipalities."
in
fact,
as
we
were
driving
down,,
we
were
discussing
a
couple
of
points
on
things
that.
C
A
A
D
Janet
leiper:,
these
are
a
number
of
suggestions.,
it's
not
a
tick-the-box
exercise.
and
you
could,.
Even
if
you
wanted
to,,
put
brackets
behind
the
person
and
say
for
example;
a
supervisor,,
a
friend,,
a
close
family
member.,
you
could
do
that
if
you
wanted
to
sort
of
signal,.
This
is
what
we're
talking.
About.
K
K
C
C
C
Of
course,
the
municipal
conflict
of
interest
act,
says,
"I
shall
declare
a
direct
or
indirect
pecuniary
interest
in
accordance
of
the
municipal
act."
and
then
there's--can't
even
remember--there's.
A
third
one
that
relates
to
some
of
the
provisions
that
are
contained
within
the
municipal
act,
itself,
obligations
under
there.
C
K
C
C
C
K
Councillor
mclaren:
yeah,,
in
the
sense
that
the
code
of
conduct
demands
that
we
follow
the
municipal,
act,
and
the
municipal
act
says
that
we
have
to
follow
the
oath,
and
the
oath
says--and.
I
can
quote
it
here
because
I
just
brought
it
up
here:
a
second
ago--that
we--,
the
last
part
of
the
oath,
specifically
says,
"I,
will
be.
C
C
D
Q
D
Janet
leiper:,
we
wouldn't
contemplate
a
formal
investigation
being
initiated
that
way.
the
whole
point
being
that
it's
a
significant
step..
There
are
significant
powers.
so,,
there's
the
affidavit
required
that
would
have
to
be
filed
and
then
brought,,
but
the
other--the
informal--sure,
make
it
as
easy
and
accessible
as
possible.
encourage
people
to
do
things
informally,
wherever
possible.
Q
Q
D
D
and
there
are
lots
of
ways
to
do
this,.
But
we
had
posters,
that--
now,,
you
don't
have
offices
here.
So
it's
a
little
different..
You
would
want
to
maybe
do
it
online,,
but
we
had
integrity
matters
here,
posters
that
every
councillor
put
up,
saying,
"look.
If
you've
got
an
issue,
talk
to
me;.
If
you
want
some
advice
or
information,
go
there.",
you
come
up
with
creative
ways
to
communicate
about
how
your
ethics
regime
works.
Q
Q
it
starts
to
get
difficult
to
do
an
informal
complaint
to
joe
snow,,
who
is
a
member
of
the
arts
advisory
committee..
You
wouldn't
even
know
how
to
contact
him
through
a
website..
That's
what
I
mean.
so,
we've
got
to
work
out
how
to
funnel
this
information,,
especially
informally,
and
actually
joe
snow,
doesn't
even
know
that
this
exists.
Currently.
D
Q
G
G
G
C
C
K
K
K
D
K
A
K
A
G
G
G
Q
N
A
A
A
A
M
H
H
A
A
A
M
A
A
A
N
N
Have
some
of
those
decisions
come
down
to
a
simple
person's
opinion,,
which
gives
me
pause,,
and
I
think,
we'll
all
face
criticism
over
that.?
I
do
really
like
the
informal
complaint
process,,
the
formal
and
how
it
kind
of
really
lays
that
out,,
because
I
know
that,
as
the
mayor
mentioned,.
That
was
a
vacuum
that
existed.,
so
it
does
clear
that
up.,
I'm
also
a
big
fan
of
the
amendment
to
kind
of
give
this
a
little
bit
of
time
to
percolate
to
give
us
all--we've
got
a
lot
of
information..
N
N
I
Necessarily
for
myself,,
but
for
the
next
person
who
sits
in
this
chair.,
I
don't
think
that
we've
really
done
anything
that
is
going
to
prevent
the
problems
that
caused
us
to
look
at
these
particular
things..
I
also
question
whether
or
not
the
advice
we're
getting
is
very
good.
Advice.,
I'm
hearing
things
like
mrs.
I
I
I
hear
that
term
get
thrown
around
a
lot
and
I
think
it's
a
rookie
mistake
to
say,
"the
public
doesn't
like
this,.
The
public
doesn't
that.",
there's
a
lot
of
different
opinions
in
our
community,,
so
there's
a
red
flag,
there.
and
there's
a
red
flag.
Also
in
the
comments
that
were
made
about
breaches
to
the
code
of
conduct,
"well,,
the
people
have
a
short
memory.".
I
I
I
I
That
in
my
heart.,
maybe
I'm
wrong.-
I
realize
that
people
are
probably
going
to
still
support
this,,
but
I
couldn't
support
this.
Given
the
information
that
we
had.,
I
heard
very
few
clear
answers.
Tonight,
and
I
don't
live
my
life
that
way.,
I
don't
expect
others
to
live
their
life.
That
way,
and
I
hear
a
bunch
of
fluff
that
really
isn't--there's
no
concrete
here,
and
I'm
concerned
for
that.