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From YouTube: Five Years Ahead: Microservices, Mesh and Beyond
Description
Want to know what’s next for enterprise software development? Being ahead of the biggest trends shaping the future of software development represents a critical advantage for organizations of all sizes. This Kong Summit 2019 panel, featuring leading investors behind some of the biggest infrastructure companies in the market today discuss the tools, trends, and technologies shaping the future of how software gets built.
Anna Khan | Glenn Solomon | Martin Casado
Learn more about Kong: https://konghq.com/
A
So
I'm
really
excited
to
announce
my
two
fellow
panelists.
The
first
is
Glenn
Solomon
who's,
a
managing
partner
at
ggb
Capital.
He
joined
in
2006
and
focuses
on
enterprise
cloud
and
infrastructure.
Investing
I'm,
not
gonna,
let
him
off
so
easy.
So
we're
gonna
talk
a
little
bit
about
some
of
the
investments
that
he's
led
and
the
journeys
that
he's
been
a
part
of.
A
And
he
was
previously
the
co-founder
and
CTO
at
nasarah,
which
was
acquired
by
VMware
for
1.26
billion,
so
he's
been
on.
You
know
their
founders
in
the
room
on
that
side
of
the
table
as
well,
which
I
always
think
makes
for
a
more
colorful
discussion
and
while
at
VMware
he
served
as
senior
VP
where
he
scaled.
A
Businesses
can
be
very,
very
valuable
and
so
examples
of
that
was
elastic
and
pivotal
their
IPO
and
then
Red
Hat,
getting
acquired,
which
was
a
largest
software
acquisition
that
ever
happened,
and
this
is
sort
of
a
high-level
question,
but
I'd
love,
Glenn
and
Martines
responses
of
why
2018
like
what
was
about
that
year.
That
was
an
inflection
point
where
we,
where
we
first
saw
open
source
sort
of
be
a
commercial
hit.
Maybe
Glenn
I'll
ask
you
first
and
Martine.
Please,
please
chime
in
so.
A
B
C
B
B
C
C
B
C
B
Try
to
speak
into
this
boom,
so
I
think
the
what
what
Preeti
said
was
hey.
You
know
it
lowers
risk
and
therefore
it
makes
a
lot
of
sense
for
people
to
try
open-source,
whether
you're,
if
you're
a
developer,
if
you're
practitioner,
certainly
that's
the
first
place,
you
look
and
I
think
that's
been
going
on
now
for
a
while,
and
so
if
you
look
at
the
the
growth
in
the
communities
and
the
projects
and
their
popularity,
it's
really
been
going
on
now
for
some
time.
B
I
think
the
connection
to
commercial
business
models
has
taken
longer
to
figure
out,
but
there
has
been
some
some
good
invention.
Thanks
sorry
about
that,
is
that
better,
okay,
so
there's
there's
been
good
invention
and
I
know
we're
gonna
talk
about
that,
but
I
think
it's
the
connection
between
open
source
as
a
great
answer
for
how
software
should
be
developed
and
then
how
software
should
be
utilized.
Coupled
with
hey,
we
figured
out
how
how
to
convert.
You
know
how
to
build
a
commercial
strategy
out
of
open
source
that
has
led
to
more
interest.
B
C
I
think
I
think
I'd.
Add
one
thing
which
is
I.
Think
open
source
is
those
kind
of
constrained
by
like
the
creativity
of
the
market
and
the
size
of
the
market.
So
if
you
look
back
maybe
15
years,
a
lot
of
the
open
source
successes,
we're
entering
mature
markets
with
kind
of
me-too
products
because
they
had
to
so,
if
you're
doing
some
kind
of
funky
open
source
project
that
nobody
knew
how
to
think
about.
C
Like
maybe
you'd
get
like
a
you
know
a
little
community,
but
you
wouldn't
get
a
lot
of
adoption
in
the
enterprise,
and
so
you
know,
listen.
Linux
went
after
Unix,
my
sequel
went
after
Oracle,
you
know,
and
around
for
the
iPhone
movement.
You
have
like
a
bunch
of
examples
of
companies
that
were
basically
commoditize
errs,
but
then
is
the
entire
in
streak
got
more
mature
and
developers
got
more
control
of
budget
and
people
got
more
sophisticated
about
thinking
about
things
all
of
a
sudden
enter
open
source
went
from
I'm
gonna.
C
Do
you
know
what
this
big
company
does,
but
I'm
gonna?
Do
it
an
open
source,
I'm
gonna?
Do
this
entirely
new
thing
in
an
entirely
new
paradigm
and
I'm
gonna
educate
you
on
that
I
think
that
allowed
companies
to
do
kind
of
pre
chasm
early
market
startups
and
be
successful
without
being
constrained
by
these
kind
of
older
markets
and
I
think
that
breakout
probably
happened
around
2010
to
2012
in,
like
so
2018
is
like
the
maturation
of
those
companies
that
started
in
the
last
decade
or
so.
A
And
then
I
want
to
touch
on
something
you
said:
Glenn,
which
is
commercial
open
source
starting
to
become
successful,
and
and
what
do
you
think
if
you
were
to
pinpoint
certain
values
that
lead
to
that?
What
would
you
say
those
are
and
if
you
could
give
examples
from
kind
of
your
own
experiences
as
a
board
member,
that
would
be
really
helpful.
Sure.
B
Well,
let's
talk
about
what
it
what's
been
hard,
so
winning
the
hearts
and
minds
either
in
replacement
technologies
or
brand
new
technologies
has
been
I.
Think
you
know,
open
source
has
really
blazed
a
trail
that
has
probably
nowhere
to
go
now,
but
continuing
forward
like
we
will
continue
to
see
open
source
as
a
very,
very
important
trend
in
software
and
software
development
for
years
to
come.
B
They
probably
all
had
lots
of
open
sourcing,
and
they
just
didn't
know
about
it,
and
so
connecting
those
dots
has
been
the
challenge
and
I
think
what
companies
like
Kong
have
helped
invent.
This
is
really
new
science.
This
is
not
something
that's
been
going
on
for
years.
It's
really
just
been
going
on
for
the
last
couple
of
years
is
figuring
out.
B
Companies
that
have
closed
that
loop,
successfully,
you're,
starting
to
see
more,
follow
and
and
and
now
companies
themselves
are
more
accustomed
to
dealing
with
open
source
and
and
then
a
like.
Maybe
an
open
core
model.
We're
gonna
talk
about
models
in
a
second
but
the
the
routinization
of
buying
from
a
company
that
also
provides
me
with
open
source.
Software
has
become
more
legitimate
in
larger
enterprise,
and
so
I
think
we're
on
that.
We're
in
that
process,
companies
like
Kahn
are
doing
a
very
good
job
connecting
those
dots,
but
it's
still
very
early
and.
A
You
think
those
two
groups
are
actually
quite
different
like
do
you
think
that,
let's
say
one
of
you
have
started
a
compelling
open
source
project
and
you
have
to
think
about
managing
the
community,
but
also
managing
the
eventual
buyer.
In
some
companies,
I
was
lucky
enough
to
work
very
early
on
with
Twilio.
That
is
one
in
the
same,
but
have
you
seen
that
those
can
actually
be
different
communities?
And
so
it's
about
managing
the
the
open
source
community,
but
then
also
getting
to
a
different
buyer
that
is
making
the
decision.
B
C
Yeah
sure
it's
kind
of
interesting,
even
outside
of
open
source,
one
of
the
biggest
trends
in
the
industry
is
like
startups,
have
to
learn
to
kind
of
like
walk
and
chew
gum
in
the
following
ways,
which
is
it
used
to
the
case.
If
you're
building
an
enterprise
company
like
you'd,
build
some
cool
new
thing
and
it
solves
some
problem
and
you
build
a
Salesforce
and
you
take
that
Salesforce
and
you
go
and
sell
it,
and
that
was
kind
of
contract
that
you
have
with
a
buyer.
But
more
and
more.
C
The
fastest-growing
companies
actually
have
these
kind
of
Bottoms
Up
organic
phenomenons
that
win
by
brand
I
mean
think
about
like
slack
or
github
or
Dropbox
or
Atlassian.
It
took
a
long
time
before
they
actually
built
out
sales
and
instead
they
kind
of
won
like
they
build
great
products
and
they
had
great
brand
and
they
had
the
great
marketing
channels,
and
this
whole
industry
trend
was
actually
kind
of
created
by
open
source
like
open
source
was
like
listen.
C
You
know
we're
gonna
use
the
bits
themselves,
that
the
product
is
a
marketing
channel
and
then
companies
will
use
it
and
then
over
time,
we'll
have
this
huge
user
base
and
we
can
sell
into
that.
So
that
works
if
you're
able
to
build
a
community.
But
the
problem
is,
is
let's
say:
you're
building
this
great
community
and
you've
got
all
these
developments
and
everybody's
using
it.
C
Then
you
have
to
now
build
sales,
and
if
you
do
that
in
a
way
that
you
erode
your
bottom
up
growth,
you
have
a
failed
company
and
so
where
the
enterprise
in
the
past
used
to
be
I,
just
worry
about
sales
and
like
consumer
companies
are
passing
like
I'll.
Just
worry
about
marketing
base
growth.
Now
these
enterprise
companies,
especially
open
source
companies,
have
to
do
both
growth
and
sales,
and
that
and
the
interplay
between
those
two
graphs
has
been
very,
very
difficult
and
so
I
think
the
one
piece
of
advice
I'd
get
for
anybody.
C
That's
thinking
about
doing
this
or
thinking
through
this
is,
as
far
as
we
can
tell
so
we're
at
Andreessen
Horowitz.
We
invest
in
a
lot
of
open
source
companies.
As
far
as
we
can
tell,
there
is
no
path
to
a
successful
company
without
having
a
successful
community.
There's
absolutely
no
path.
Now,
if
you
don't,
if
you
don't
happen
to
get
sales
working,
you
get
a
lot
of
shots
on
goals
like
let's
say
you
try
and
it
doesn't
work
and
you
do
it
slowly.
That's
all
fine,
and
so
you
have
to
prioritize
community.
C
C
B
Know
that
that
reminds
me
if
something
Auggie
likes
to
say
he
taught
me
this
and
saying
that
there's
a
huge
difference
between
users,
don't
confuse
users
with
a
community
officer
and
I.
Think
I
think
that's
really
important
part
of
this
puzzle
that
Martine
mentions.
If
the
community
isn't
strong,
then
you
have
no
shot
at
building
an
open-source
business
that
you
can
commercialize,
so
it
has
to
start
there,
but
that
in
and
of
itself
doesn't
guarantee
you
success
in
commercialization.
So
to
touch
on
the
question
you
raised.
B
I
do
think
that
there
it
tends
to
be
as
Martine
alluded
to
it's.
It's
a
different
like
enterprise
selling
is
still
enterprise
selling.
If
you
come
in
bottoms
up
through
practitioners
with
open
source
that
really
helps
build,
that
bottoms
up
love
and
a
real
desire,
you
have
to
probably
have
good
champions
in
in
the
org,
but
you've
still
then
got
to
do
the
enterprise
selling
thing,
and
that
is
not
easy.
A
You
know:
I've
had
a
number
of
founders
kind
of
call
me
out
on
this,
so
I'm
gonna
call
you
guys
out
on
it,
which
is
how
do
you
know
when
you
have
that
community,
because
community
in
a
census
is
almost
like
measuring
brand
like
when,
when
a
founder
comes
to
you
and
says
I
think
I
have
a
really
strong
community,
I'm
gonna
try
to
commercialize
it.
How
can
we
win
verify
that?
Is
it
github
stars
and
reviews?
Is
it
active
instances?
Is
it
number
of
downloads?
I
mean?
C
So
I'm
gonna
not
answer
the
question.
I'm
gonna
answer
the
question
so
but
I'm
going
to
answer
a
related
question
which
is
the
following:
so
in
the
investor
community,
there's
this
great
calculus
for
looking
at
consumer
companies
which
has
been
evolved
over
the
last
ten
years
and
and
there's
a
lot
of
acronyms
like
I,
don't
even
really
know
like
vows
and
dowels,
and
engagement
and
smile
curves
and
all
this
other
stuff.
But
the
important
thing
to
realize
is
that
people
have
looked
at
these
companies
for
20
years.
C
They
looked
at
snapchat
and
I,
looked
at
Twitter
and
they're
like
okay.
We
understand
how
these
like
cohorts,
grow
and
how
that
yours
growing
how
the
communities
go.
They
really
get
it
and
as
far
as
I
can
tell
with
open
sores,
we
just
don't
know
like
the
calculus
doesn't
exist,
and
so
everybody
has
his
first
order.
Approximation
right.
We
say
it
seems
like
it
hub
stars
and
and
mailing
lists
and
downloads.
But
if
you
actually
look
at
the
data,
so
we've
done
the
analysis
on
this
and
we're
in
the
middle
of
doing
the
analysis.
C
If
you
actually
look
at
the
data
from
like
sales
growth
outcomes
and
then
all
these
vanity
metrics,
there's
almost
no
correlation,
so
I
believe
I
believe
that
the
answer
is
out
there
I
believe
there's
a
calculus
to
be
made.
That
is
actually
meaningful
that
you
can
use
to
your
business.
I
just
don't
know
what
that
is
yet
and
I
think
a
lot
of
people
don't
so
that's
kind
of
my
non
answer
for
what
I
actually
think
is
a
very
complicated
question.
Yeah.
A
C
I've
got
a
very
quick
it
so
that
there's
one
thing
I
would
say
which
is
the
the
org.
The
organic
growth
of
an
open-source
product
needs
to
be
self
fulfilling
like
people
have
to
want
to
use
it.
It
has
to
be
solving
a
problem
and
it
has
to
to
speak
for
itself
and
that
should
have
secondary
follow-on
effects.
Like
people
like
you
like,
they
want
your
product,
they
want
to
talk
to
you.
They
follow
up
and
so
I
think
from
a
company
standpoint.
You
want
to
look
at
those
second-order
effects.
C
Are
people
reaching
out
to
me
I?
Don't
care
what
my
github
stars
are
they
reaching
out
to
me
and
that
they
want
a
little
more?
Are
they
coming
in?
Are
they
asking
for
pricing?
That's
the
only
real
metric
of
community
value.
The
thing
is
from
an
investor's
standpoint,
nearly
okay,
so
it's
very
hard
from
the
outside
to
know,
but
I
do
think
you
have
some
pretty
concrete
in
bounds
from
you
know,
like
a
project
manager
or
a
product
manager.
Yeah.
C
B
Thing
that
I
would
say
from
my
experience
so
far
has
been
that
community
building
is
very
different
company
to
company
you're.
Never
at
the
finish
line.
It
is
a
process
as
much
as
it
is.
You
know
a
way
to
set
goals
for
yourself,
but
for
those
of
you
thinking
about
starting
some
open-source
projects
in
the
future
and/or.
Those
of
you
who
just
are
active
users
of
open-source
and
trying
to
figure
out
well,
should
I
spend
my
time
with
this
project.
Cuz
I
like
it,
but
is
it
gonna
die
because
it
doesn't
look
like
there's.
B
You
know
much
activity
around
it.
One
thing
I've
seen
is
that
it
can
take
a
long
long
time
for
some
of
these
projects
to
gestate.
You
know.
Kong
has
been
very
successful
with
its
open
source
gateway
and
has
millions
of
downloads
a
month
at
this
point,
but
there
are
lots
of
projects
that
are
now
successful,
but
that
had
many
years
of
let's
say
you
know
fallow
times,
and
so
I
think
it
has
a
lot
to
do
with.
B
If
I
was
thinking
about
not
from
an
investor
standpoint
but
from
a
user
standpoint
trying
to
understand
hey,
should
I
invest
time
in
this
open
source
project?
Is
it
going
to
be
around
a
while
I'd
look
pretty
closely
at
the
founders
and
hey?
How
committed
are
the
founders
to
this
project?
Are
they
spending
lots
of
time
in
the
forums
and
trying
to
answer
questions?
Are
they
listening
to
all
the
suggestions?
B
Is
the
community
beginning
to
build
or
what
does
the
contributions
look
like
you
know,
what's
going
on
with
the
PRS
and
and
ultimately
make
some
determination
not
on
like
a
vanity
metric,
hey,
there's,
not
enough
github
stars,
but
more
like
do.
I
do
I
believe
in
the
vision,
as
articulated
by
the
founders
of
this
project,
and
they
seem
to
have
motives
that
are
in
line
with
my
motives
for
wanting
to
use
the
project
and
I
think
if
those
things
add
up,
it's
probably
pretty
good
bet.
Yeah.
A
A
C
Let
me
go,
let
me
go
all
right,
so
so
listen
Glenn's,
a
better
investor
than
I
answer.
He's
gonna.
Give
you
a
more
complete
answer.
So
let
me
give
you
my
my
high
level.
You
know
I,
actually
don't
worry
about
this.
This
question,
like
I,
just
think
that,
like
open
source
had
a
tough
time
monetizing
previously,
because,
like
egg
does
companies
run
sophisticated
buyers
like
they
didn't
think
they
needed
a
relationship
with
the
company
which
is
just
stupid
right,
like
if
you're
getting
a
bunch
of
bits
and
those
bits
are
changing
over
time
like
you're.
C
Definitely
gonna
want
to
have
like
some
relationship
with
the
company
and
like
that
as
formalized
as
a
sales
relationship,
and
the
maturation
of
that
has
been
enormous
over
the
last
few
years.
I
also
think
we've
really
perfected
open
source
as
a
service,
and
it
gets
really
hard
to
run
a
large
operational
cloud
service.
This
is
something
that
like
is
more
of
an
operations
problem
than
like
a
code
problem
and
I
think
so
any
company
entering
the
space
that
actually
has
a
service
offering
like
that,
can
monetize
and
so
I
personally,
spend
less
time
being.
C
B
Okay,
I'll
take
a
slightly
different
tact
on
this
one
and
say
that
to
me
it
seems
like
the
models
I've
seen
developed
like
they're.
You
know
if
I
put
them
into
a
couple
of
buckets.
There
are
companies
that
are
what
I,
I
kind
of
consider
to
be
pure,
open
core
models
where
they
they
have
open,
open
source
pieces
of
software
and
then
want
to
sell
enterprise
features,
many
of
which
will
run
you'll,
run
yourself
and
VP
C's
or
on
pram
or
an
you
know,
pick
pick
your
environment
and
that
seems
to
be
like
again.
B
It
resembles
traditional
software
models
in
terms
of
how
those
commercial
features
get
sold,
but
I
think
that's
where
you're
seeing
most
of
the
traction
today
again
it's
the
early
days
but
and
I
suspect,
we'll
see
more
of
this
as
software's
gotten
more
complex
and
more
and
more
workloads
have
moved
to
the
cloud.
I
think
that
more
of
these
companies
are
now
also
providing
like
running
the
service
themselves.
For
you
and
the
trick
with
that
and
I
know
we're
gonna
talk
a
little
bit
about.
It
is
okay.
B
If
you
run
the
service
and
it's
open
source,
who
else
can
run
the
service
and
open
source
and
try
to
you
know
commercialize
that
service
as
well?
So
there's,
but
you
know,
depending
on
the
product
itself
and
how
important
it
is
to
you
how
difficult
it
is
to
run
and
I,
see
like
the
kind
of
call
it
the
on
pram
or
the
V
PC
option,
and
then
the
cloud
service
option
of
open
source
to
me.
Those
are
both
very
viable
models
and
companies
are
running
hybrids
of
both
as
well.
B
I
will
I
I
think
that
the
days
of
betting
on
companies
that
just
provide
support
as
like
another
model,
a
little
less
less
attractive,
I
think
just
from
a
financial
standpoint
and
it
more
difficult
to
scale
and
then
lastly,
I'd
say
I
I
do
see
lots
of
companies
that
pursue
some
sort
of
embedded
model
with
open
source.
Going
back
to
like
my
sequel
as
a
you
know,
one
of
maybe
the
the
pioneers
in
that
in
that
world
and
that
can
make
sense.
A
And
then
you
know
we
did
talk
about
if
you
have
a
model,
that's
working!
What
prevents
another
company
from
also
selling
that
open
source,
and
so
the
the
the
gorilla
in
the
room
to
touch
on
Kong's
logo
as
well
is
AWS,
and
that
comes
up
a
lot
in
my
discussions
of
founders
because
they
seem
to
be
getting
in
a
lot
of
areas
and
threatening
some
very
viable
open
source
companies,
but
they're
not
really
being
successful
at
much
yet
in
that
arena.
C
So
so
again,
I've
got
a
pretty
simplistic
view
of
this.
It's
just
like
I
feel
like
after
every
reinvent
I'm
on
maybe
15
boards.
After
every
reinvent
I
kind
of
like
moved
from
like
kind
of
ec2
like
therapist
I'm,
like
no,
it's
okay,
they
just
say
they're
gonna.
Do
this
thing
you
know
whatever
and
like
I,
honestly,
think
being
afraid
of
AWS
is
like
being
afraid
of.
Hp,
like
you
know,
like
HP
is
a
great
company.
They
do
great,
but
listen.
This
is
a
trillion-dollar
market
of
which
every
independent
sub
sector
is.
C
You
know
tens
of
billions
of
dollars
which
needs
entire
companies
and
product
teams
and
sale
forces
that
understand
how
to
sell
the
value
and
everything
else
and
I
think
I,
can't
think
of
a
single
company
and
I
think
it's
so
fun,
I,
guess
a
VC
by
the
way.
We're
like
these,
like
these
pattern,
matchers-
and
we
often
say
these
stupid
things
and
want
the
stupid
things.
We
all
say
like
what?
C
If
AWS
does
this
and
we've
been
saying
this
for
10
years,
I
like
I,
have
a
hard
time
thinking
about
a
company
that
a
DL
basis
actually
put
out
of
business
by
doing
open
sourcing.
Maybe
your
price
and
pressure
or
something
so
my
view
is
this
is
AWS,
is
fantastic.
It's
a
commoditizing
force
they're
going
to
if
something
successful,
they're
gonna
do
like
a
crappy
version
of
it
and,
like
that's
totally
fine
and
that
will
evolve
over
time.
But
if
you're
adding
something
of
value,
that's
differentiating.
C
A
Maybe
to
push
back
just
slightly
on
that
and
ask
maybe
a
slightly
harder
question:
we
talked
about
community
and
how
hard
that
is
to
build.
You
could
say
that
AWS
in
a
sense
has
a
bulletproof
community
and
if
you
think
that
that
is
what
allows
open-source
to
commercialize
the
fastest,
you
have
great
distribution.
You
have
the
hearts
and
minds
of
a
developer.
Then
they
truly
are
miles
ahead
of
other
open
source
projects.
Does
that
worry
you,
or
would
you
stand
by
the
same
answer?
I.
C
Mean
I'm
just
gonna
I,
don't
think
that's
for
me
is
like
saying:
Facebook
has
got
a
crazy
scene.
It
Facebook's
got
a
great
community,
there's
nothing
to
do
with
my
community,
but
like
that's
a
great
community.
Listen
people
use
AWS
and
people
use
Cisco
people
use
HP
and
people
use
VMware
and
there's
all
of
these
things
and
it's
all
great.
However,
they
have
to
pizza
box
teams
that
are
focusing
on
these
interesting
things.
You
know
on
these
different
projects
and
some
are
good
and
some
are
not
good
and
they
a
lie.
C
I
will
you
know
a
thousand
flowers
to
bloom
and
many
die
on
the
vine
to
like
mix
metaphors
and
I,
actually
think
that
listen
with
a
trillion
dollar
IT
market
people
want
real,
interesting
problem
products
that
evolve
understand
the
customer
space
and
then
provide
the
pre-sales
and
post-sales
support
for
it.
It's
impossible.
It
doesn't
matter
how
big
you
are
it's
impossible
for
any
company
to
do
that
and
so
I
think,
like
listen.
If
you're
really
worried
about
AWS
Co
monetizing,
you
you're,
probably
not
investing
enough
in
R&D
and
moving
fast
enough.
B
Are
they
going
to
continue
to
innovate
at
the
end
of
the
day?
That
is
the
single
most
important
thing.
I
think
what
Martine
is
saying
is
like,
don't
you
know
sure
there'll
be
some
community
on
AWS
that
might
use
an
old
version
of
your
product.
But
what
are
you
doing
for
me
lately
and
where
are
you
taking
me
as
a
customer,
whether
I'm
an
open-source
user
or
a
commercial
user?
B
Maybe
some
of
those
companies
would
be
bigger
and
stronger
than
they
are
today,
so
it
to
me
it
has
more
to
do
with.
Are
you
building
innovation
into
your
model?
Are
you
staying
on
top
of
where
the
the
market
is
going
and
really
leading
the
market?
And
if,
though,
you
have
that
kind
of
culture
and
I
think
Kong,
does
you
heard
about
a
lot
of
it
this
morning
and
obviously
I'm
biased
as
an
investor
in
the
company?
But
to
me
that's
the
most
important
question.
A
Like
me
against
them,
okay,
one
last
question:
we
only
have
one
second
left,
but
so
clearly
community
is
important.
Developers
are
making
a
lot
of
buying
decisions.
Empowering
the
developer
is
important
when
it
goes
right.
Are
there
any
instances
on
the
boards
that
you
sits
it
out
or
examples
you
can
share
where
the
goal
was
to
empower
the
developer
to
make
the
buying
decision,
and
it
just
never
got
there,
and
why
did
that
happen?
And
how
can
the
people
in
the
room
avoid
that.
B
A
A
B
A
But
but
again,
I
think
the
budget
for
Twilio
in
the
beginning,
because
it's
very
much
the
usage
based
model
that
was
sort
of
the
Trojan
horse
in
which
I
think
helped
that
particular
company,
but
again
I,
think
it
was
an
anomaly
of
sorts
marching
any
anything.
Dad
awesome
well,
I
hope
that
was
helpful.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
joining
us.