Kubernetes SIG Contributor Experience, 11 Apr 2018

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From YouTube: Kubernetes Contributor Experience SIG 20180411

Description

We meet every Wednesday to discuss Kubernetes Contributor Experience projects. Join us!

A

Recording alright hi everyone welcome to today's date is April, 11th. Goodness gracious addition of contributor experience, we do have a full agenda today and since we are now booking a weekly meeting that we're no longer going to separate out topics, so today is whatever you'd like again. If you have not added your name as an attendee to the list, please do so so in case. We need to get back to you about a topic that would be great.

A

So first things. First, we always do reoccurring items. If there's any new contributors on the call which they're not and then do. We have any community meeting issues George hosts graph of the week. I know we already I, know Aaron's I, know four graphs, so we're good there. Do you have anything that you wanted to call out for help about community meeting with.

B

Just so, we forgot that any any luck with a SIG's Josh if they get back to you I know we only have a day left but well.

C

Everything's confirmed, except I'm, still trying to talk cluster ops into doing something. They are busily they're, basically demoting themselves from a sig, maybe even from a work group down to whatever this future thing that we're potentially doing is Ivan lacks a good story to discuss in the community meeting, but they haven't committed to doing that. Okay, so cluster I, never just before I think you're, mixing them up with on mixed ran back mixing them up is one of the discussions was whether or not those two should merge. Yeah.

B

So I think we should have the bomb, because Aaron and I were just filing a bunch of bugs and Peres said last night that we actually don't have any procedures on how to convert something to a working group or that kind of stuff. So I think it.

C

Wouldn't hurt to see what people who I want to I just have not gotten a response from them, saying that they're willing to go ahead and do that. Okay,.

B

So I'm thinking, if they don't, then we reserve that slot to kind of basically maybe I, don't know, do a call for comments. Or does anybody want to pencil when a policy to propose to the steering committee or does the stereo the.

C

First thing: I think we need to discuss is whether or not we're going to do I think the latest proposal was boss.

C

Okay, I heard I heard focus groups yeah, but I tail end of discussion both seem to be meeting with the most approval. Could.

D

You let steering committee to have that discussion. Okay,.

C

So we want to wait on that any discussion of that in the in the kubernetes community meeting until the next steering committee meeting, which is today.

B

And then it won't hurt that if we only have two to six going tomorrow and on the demo, who's, the demo, Oh demos, Red Hat, so you're good.

C

Yeah cryo and if they don't show up I'm, going to get a net in a trident and fly out to Westford excellent.

B

All right so we're good for community meeting. Then.

A

All right and then, of course, we're always looking for people to help us with office hours and meet our contributors get in contact. If you would like, you want an invite for either one of those and then now we proceed into our full time. Agenda looks like George. You had some.

E

Topics from seeing AWS Roadshow yeah, the big one was they.

B

Were confused about some projects like they were like? Do we just make one and as it lays a consensus, is there a template, like the Charter like how do we do this.

A

And I think the new governance that Joe P art against has information about this I think there it's laid out somewhere, but I, don't know if it's necessarily a lot of that's been thrown out. Okay,.

F

Talking about working group or.

B

F

Projects on projects, yeah, I, think if you look at the templates for the Charter for a sake because SIG's on the sub projects it relaxed about that in there and then it can be different per cig.

B

Right, okay, I will look at that done and the other bit of feedback they had is the Help Wanted tag they get confused because sometimes they want help wanted, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that issue is appropriate for new users. So they were wondering if we can get some granularity there and I haven't caught up on issue labels or anything so I thought I'd just bring it up. I'm.

G

Always confused by this because Help Wanted means hope, wanted and and we've. Actually, there have been a few people who have complained that contributor, experienced enhancements and Help Wanted are often focused only on the novice and help one. It should also mean that there there are places where, if you have expert experience in a particular city area that you could step up and do it, but it's not it's something: that's backlog and not otherwise, currently owned. So the it could be a great place for a newcomer to the project as well.

D

Oh final issue: please: so we can link it in the notes, so yeah.

B

D

B

D

Because I started to realize that.

B

I'm gonna end up going back to all the people I'm Road, showing to kind of give them the status. So this really helps I know that we keep repeating these and stuff, but, like I, feel that some of the stuff we just have to do it until we it's like repetition, yeah every day, but I.

A

Mean I think we mentioned this all the time, which is that the help point it needs better documentation and I. Don't think anybody has done it, so somebody needs to take it as an action and probably should take it this week so that we don't hear about it again.

A

D

Chefs but he wants to put in the right place in the agenda: cool, okay,.

C

Thank you, sir, so my my initial proposal was to use good first issue, which is another label, that's actually recognized by github yeah, but there's been some discussion about other possibilities.

C

B

All right, well ah blob, well, I, will summarizes this stuff and send it back to Lisa good AWS in.

D

Them in the meantime, I don't know if the more human facing issue, because I saw it again in the reddit AMA is like I would go. Look at Help Wanted except nobody seems to be maintaining those issues. So we don't know if they're, stale or whatnot we've said this a lot like if we can actually just get somebody to go through that. You know not that I am volunteering myself. I'm also adds all the time this week, but I think yeah like I. Would really you know it's a problem.

D

If you get somebody who can just do.

B

It yeah and last time someone brought this up at meet our contributors as well, and we say well, there's a label for this and we had nothing tagged. So I went through my editor, so it's like we're. Also not doing this for for ourselves as well, so I think.

D

I would totally welcome somebody new pairing with somebody a little more experienced and if the new person's like I, don't understand this, this makes zero sense. Great. Let's create the Help Wanted label and have somebody who's got a little more visibility in the project it just so.

F

Just to jump on this real, quick one of the things they've done on helm is they have somebody every week and it changes week by week. They call the issue Sherpa and basically it's their job to go through and start tagging things and you switch it from week to week. So nobody's got a permanent responsibility.

F

It doesn't have to be any of that, but there's a pool of people who are the leads and every week somebody takes it on and goes through to make sure these things happen, and if you can a week it's easy because somebody else can and it's a way to take turns I, don't know. Is that something that contributor experienced a group of people would want to do like.

B

I feel, since we have to do like mailing list moderation and stuff, you would just whoever we could just call it on call, and it would include mailing list issues Sherpa. You know that way. We don't die by a thousand paper cuts, but it still rotates.

C

This is not something one person can be.

D

The reason that it works well for the home community is because that's a single focus, sub-project right, we're taught about the help-wanted label as applied to all the thousands of issues across every single kubernetes repo.

H

D

Right, okay and so in an ideal world, cigs are responsible for attending to their issues. So contributor experience could go an actus, a technical leads to say: hey is this still relevant? Is this pertinent or we could start taking away their cheese and removing helpful on it, labels from their issues and see if they don't I, don't know, but I just think that, like it's, it's an undue technical responsibility on a group I agree that we're responsible for like what we are interested in making sure that is a meaningful label.

D

But we maybe don't have the best judgment about whether or not it's relevant yeah. So the.

B

Volunteer thing I was I was talking about for our sake, so sorry, I didn't mean us doing. Help Wanted for everybody everywhere would.

F

It be an idea to have a maybe get a couple of cigs to try doing more of this in sub projects and then somehow evangelize, how it's being successful to try and egg more cigs into doing this I'm. Just trying to think of. Is there a way to get the ball rolling because I like the idea, better labeling and Help Wanted listing it and trying to get everybody to do it?

F

Gonna work, but if a few people it's successful and you can you know what the the community meeting somebody could showcase here's, what we did, here's, how it worked kind of vague others say you know we don't get enough people in here, something.

B

That helps because, if we got got pointed out as a criticism during the AMA and during the inner contributors, maybe we could pitch it as like look, you know, people are starting to ask why you know why kubernetes says and have these things people are wouldn't help. Do we have a few volunteers to consider like? Maybe we should start with six consider having an issue Sherpa, that's a rotating thing, or at least I.

G

Don't know make it miss the sig release issue triage I end up looking through a lot of issues and if those people existed, I would start kind of pulling on them. Saying hey, would you like to shadow and maybe join the release team? It could be an on-ramp okay.

H

I guess at one point we did you know last year, while working the Diaz guidelines and later I think we are, if either like five, which has the most number of issues. You know, and you know I mean if those five six have a rap. You know who can take it down that issue self or like a tre up or something that can take care of this, but I again that time also, we were told that it's the bank.

H

It is an issue within those five six, because they are the most busiest ones like Signac were called the secrecy Li, for example, so I mean in any progress. We can make that out very good if he continues the six right to have a issue shelf a kind of person or rotation.

A

Yeah I think I think it's a good idea. I really like I, said in chat. I, really think we need to do more workshops and more learning and training and I mean these are all people problems that major large organizations have and were a major large project at this point, so I think issue grooming and how to manage your sake better and like tips and tricks for four people on unlike project management, I mean all of this stuff would be amazing to have and I something that, like.

A

Maybe we can even discuss at the contributor summits in Copenhagen, but let's move on just based off of time. Unless anybody else has anything super pending about that looks like Aaron's putting in some data to Aaron could actually I'll do it, but I'll transfer the to the agenda all right.

A

George did you have anything else say you wanted to talk about with the AWS. If not do you want to talk about the community demo hosting good yeah.

B

This would be a real quick one, so we had a group of complaints actually about the last demo at the community meeting being too commercial, namely it didn't work on kubernetes, so people are asking hey, do to tighten up the hosting guidelines and all this stuff, but we actually have hosting guidelines that are linked to and everything I think that just may be. The solution to this is whoever's hosting that week, instead of just saying hey, are you ready for your demo this week and we say, show up 10 minutes early?

B

We should perhaps say please ensure that your following interviewing these guidelines, because we did write them out and they say you know, don't be too commercial.

B

You know that not that sort of thing like he put something interesting for the kubernetes community, but still allowing people who have commercial products to demo stuff for the community, but keeping it classy. So we have all that stuff, it's written, so I, don't I, don't know. Do we kind of want to drive it home a little bit more that, like I, don't know how everyone here felt about the demo. So I don't know did that people complained to me privately afterwards, though I.

E

Think we should continue to drive that home and refine those guidelines. Okay, so I'll just add it to.

B

The document for the host so double check and things like that. Okay, thanks.

D

Yeah now watching Joe's feedback was something special. Hey I mean.

B

I was like hey, you're gonna get if you ship that's the answer. You're gonna give on the security thing someone someone's gonna say something like if it wasn't Joe someone like I, don't know it's kind of funny. The.

D

Security thing was okay, there's more just that there was literally no way to for it to be a kubernetes thing without point, yeah.

B

A

Alrighty or you're up next, you made a proposal for community management related topics to talk about that. A little bit.

I

Yep, so as we currently KFC is right, we having first rule so it's you. Could you could notice my proposal in working group, tread and proposing to establish kind of like the service desk style, mailing list to receive Tristan the input from the community on any questions or any situations to provide them any kind of support style for from the community admins? So we currently have the well-defined group of people who have some extra rights in the community and when we're speaking about slack when I was speaking about github ownership, for example, and so on.

I

So as we for example, as we have the slack admins channel that is open for everyone and tipping it is slack, we can also do the same ways. I was the mailing list. So, instead of previously it's like a mail server, mail, Parris, no George mail, anybody else privately.

I

Anybody will be able to send an email to to this specific mailing address and receive some response from one of us. I.

A

Am in full agreement of something needs to be done in this area, because now we do have a lot of people that have hands on this pot because we have fun spoofed ourselves, which is awesome.

A

So there's now like no one single point of human failure and anything that we do community Mars, so I am 100% in agreement. I, don't necessarily have a solution for the what I'm kind of almost like now that you actually said something that triggered my fault process on what?

A

If we do, a community management channel and slack and people will join the channel and then that's actually their like the start of their ticket, and then each one of us can I don't know, do something you know: do do a based off that Erin shaking his head, no uh-huh.

D

You're gonna want a way for people to reach out to you privately and for you as a group to handle it. Why.

A

D

Case you're getting hit up for a code of conduct, type stuff for moderation, type stuff.

A

That's what slack admins is for, and yes, yes, so it's like lines around that I mean I. Don't think this. This has anything to do with coda issues. This is more like hey, I need a zoom account and hey I'm, a new Stig and the following nine things like George and I or II, or somebody else sets up like their calendar or whatever it is. It's like literally, it's like pretty much a ticket system that happens, except we don't track that anywhere. Okay,.

D

What other head-shaking thing was, like you, I, like slack a lot but I, think you're gonna get pushback unless you also add email like I, think making a mailing list. The authoritative place will be friendlier to those individuals who find slack to be too proprietary for their tastes.

I

There is one benefit of using melon least is that we can track. Everything is happening in the mailing list, with everything duplicated from the mailing list in our personal mailbox, it's threaded by alike. So you.

G

Can reply to the message and you can see affirmative- we have done this task where, in slack that just is somewhere easy to mask.

A

In your is it too much and like ever I responded to the your thread is a two months too heavy way to get on CN CF service desk. Oh, we can do it, but the purpose of CSS.

I

A

A bit different, okay, I, mean I, mean I. Think.

I

A

The past, with actual ticket system suddenly I feel like I, might be one of the last people on earth that have, but just canarians.

I

So if we, if we as community, will decided, we need the service desk system, see and see if they'll do it for us, but for my personal prospect, if I'm not sure that we need to really get in system. In this case, we have only like around five five five seven people who the real community administer it's possible for almost everything here, so we can simply save the inputs. We are, we had a classic email for and that's that should be enough and isn't.

A

Even in disagreement with us setting up a mailing list process for check in and check out procedures as a relates to community management of the project.

D

Would check in and check out, meaning one sorry is confused.

A

I'm sorry I know that's what I call like anytime, we spin up a cig or if we're going to be spinning down SIG's, like I said you know like this yeah yours and things like that. No.

D

No objections to that, like just my feedback from the steering committee, is like if everybody might respond, that you kind of get the bystander effect or like people are waiting for someone. You think firstly, so now we've we have found having a private mailing list to poke and prod is helpful.

D

If you're saying that you have a slack channel that you're all active on that might serve its purpose, but a publicly accessible mailing list is your default ticketing system and a private mailing list where you can discuss amongst yourselves or people who aren't sure and are afraid to ask the public mailing list reaching out privately has served us well. As the steering committee mm-hmm.

B

And just community at kubernetes, on I/o or something okay.

I

Yeah and community private for the private least oh yeah, and specifically mentioned that alder request butterfl. They should go to the public melon race least accepted some possible sensitive questions. Yeah I mean.

A

I'd love to just engage people with the steering committee. If they have a code of conduct issue I mean that's where they should be going. um So all right. Next item on the list, I guess we'll go ahead for actions there. We will go ahead and start that. How do we George? Do we contact Joe to get an email on the domain, or should we just do a Google Group again.

B

J

Go ahead, it was either you or you go ahead of your yeah, just my suggestions to make it as a google group in this hole. Okay,.

B

Yeah and then I was gonna, say I found that the CNC F has a mailing list hosting service that they're using yes.

I

We have the lists, lists uh-oh yeah, but I hated. Oh okay, I mean like it's UI and uniques, totally much much worse, the Google Groups. So the main, the main reason why we've switched from Google Groups to two groups: AO, is because of the Chinese users and we have to be respectful in this case for them as well.

I

But as we have, we run some tests with our Chinese Chinese people from Linux Foundation, and they figured out that you are able to send an email to the mailing list that is hosted on Google Groups, but you're. Simply not it's not so easy for you to open the web interface, but classic web email interaction is, is so easy. As usual. Okay.

B

Yeah it's just I was when I was doing research for the cap. I found that there's multiple mail providers now and I was like we're.

G

B

Figure something out so yeah.

F

You also can't read the archive if you can just send and receive emails. If you didn't already know something, there's a.

H

Lot of interaction.

F

B

So I can rope down a bunch of the limitations of Google Groups, but that's a separate conversation. I'll do whatever you want. Paris.

I

So do draw draw to notice right so we're using group sale.

I

So we would have.

H

An alternative.

I

And it's widely used by by ciencia for CNC of project, so we shouldn't be stuck with only Google Groups, but my suggestion is to hear some web UI plus email, each set of email, only I.

D

Would say that's part of the kubernetes project has exclusively used. Google, Groups and I wouldn't want people to be going to different places for different mailing lists. um So I can ask the steering committee what it takes. We have steering at kubernetes thought I/o is like a separate people. Groups thing Oh ask. If you're asking about community I'm sorry community at kubernetes do versus like kubernetes community admins at Google, Groups, calm right right, so I'll ask you what it takes to get on the community. Yes, something.

B

That, because that's rememberable right, it's like yeah.

I

Well, we we have the juice reader college right and we have Dickie. Bennett is liturgy, sweet account as far as I remember: okay,.

D

That's CN CF, oh right.

I

No, no some external committee loaned.

B

I've got the list somewhere. I just figured that out the other day. You know I.

D

Couldn't follow up with Georgia Paris after the steering committee meeting later this afternoon? Yes,.

A

All right, let's go ahead, I mean 30 minutes left, I actually accidentally skip to so we're going back up. The agenda looks like it was me and Aaron that I skipped over mine is right. Now our issue queue and PRQ. We're talking about on the community. Repo is what I think hi we've gotten 90, plus open, PRS, 100, plus open issues. Oh no, getting kicked out of my room.

A

I think that we should I, don't know, probably do better with issue triage at the very least I guess this goes into the issue: Sherpa idea for our crew and doing on-call work and then also I wanted to ask about etiquette. I know: I, asked George this yesterday to there's some really old stuff. I mean that's getting it's about to get hit by the bots anyway, but I. Don't understand why we can't ping the original author and they like hey, is this working on? Can we close this before the pod even hits it?

A

It might just be nice, but George I think you. You said that you just let it go. What are other thoughts on like? Should we set off SLA and Cessna loves thoughts.

K

There I think some of the issues are they're short term things that can be closed immediately. Brian brings us up frequently. Some of them are like holes or outstanding issues that are just ongoing discussion over here, too many months or even a year, so it doesn't really make sense for us to paying or even for the bots to ping on those, but what's the advantage of us doing it? Let's say there are other issues. Why should we be doing it rather than the bots? Is there an advantage or what's the concern.

A

K

A

Sorry, can you hear me now yeah.

K

A

Sorry I just got kicked out of memory. I was just gonna just issue hygiene and overall health. That's all housekeeping.

K

Retighten them in the specific repo or across the org, well.

A

Know in the community repo like I mean there's like issue right now that the last activity was I, don't know, know like August of 2017 yeah.

K

Let me ask you a quick story, it's kind.

A

B

On some of them, it feels like they're just using it as like a to-do list that remind you every year that you wanted to implement something in them. Yeah.

A

And I just I, don't know it free it, especially as we are trying to attract new contributors and people trying to get people to read our repos and it's like hey. We've got issues that have not been touched for this long like nobody's working here, keep it moving when I first joined I.

B

Looked through oldest first thinking, oh I'm gonna find a whole bunch of low-hanging fruit, but it was like lot stuff that obviously had had a lot of work put into them. So I didn't feel comfortable, just closing them because they were oh, but they were also, obviously not on any roadmap of any kind. It was like in a backlog almost so.

K

I think the more okay it.

G

K

Like just reverse sorting, it looks like a number of them are brainstorming or like throwing ideas out. I. Think those people wanted discoverable way to talk about issues that aren't solved in, like a discussion forum and random Google Doc isn't very discoverable, so they opted for the github issue.

K

Maybe we can come up with a new strategy that solves this problem, and then we can close the issues.

H

Down yeah can I, Thanks, yeah, sure, okay, thanks so similar mind I'll, get it to remember when we created this. Lastly, we talked about the tree has really done a bird strike on resolve and whatnot like four or five, then so one of the things he was on the Google Doc discussion, one of the motivation I put there was and we did get Eric fastest feedback there. So the factories managed to write the art of closing of issues, keeping and I explicitly mentioned in the dark as well.

H

It takes like six months right hundred eighty days or so so the issue is supposed to be no Aaron. Sorry.

D

150 said no art theory after 90 days to stay out 30 more days. Caching Rob 30 more days across.

D

So it's 155 what six, whatever.

H

Right so something like that so I'm getting some some some some distraction here.

H

A

um Yeah just to like just to ping, you back while we wait first out of yeah I mean like at the at the point where I mean I'm, because I'm I'm watching the entire community repo at this point and all of its activity on a daily basis and like I, see the Box go on for their first warning and I. Then I go in and check the issue myself and it literally just looks untouched and just like what Garrett said about brainstorming and things like that, so I I, just kind of wonder: if is it?

A

Okay from a github etiquette perspective for me to ping this person and say what's up or is or should I just leave it alone and continue on with my life? I guess that's kind of where I'm getting at with my deal, because I would love to paying these people but at the same time I don't want to be a pushy individual. So technically.

D

Speaking the person's already been pinked by the pot, adding a comment saying: hey.

D

H

A

Relying on people getting alerts from github right.

D

So if you ping that person via github it's gonna, go to the same place, the bots comment: yeah.

H

I mean most of knocking on slack sure.

D

Is a human need to do that, like my watching an entire repo just to keep up with everything that happens in the repo welcome to you? Why that doesn't work parents attention? Why should we does n't? Doesn't work?

D

90 issues, open, 100, pr's, open, actually kind of seems like a reasonable number of issues for a repo of this activity level. Just to me personally, okay, I, don't know if that seems crazy high to everybody else. I.

A

Feel like it's crazy high for the number of community folks that we have to me.

C

That's a lot of things. A lot of things are open, like I know, a lot of the issues that I'm watching are open, specifically because they need input beyond this group and.

G

That cross-leg discussion and lazy consensus can take quite a while. So it's not that's not too surprising to have quite a few of those in parallel over time. Just for.

D

Comparison sake, like helm, has over 400 open issues if I'm reading this graph right. So like it's 185 when.

A

I guess most of ours our documentation, though, and I'm kind of comparing us just like that, the docs team and the website more as I'm comparing us to home- and you know I know the docs team keeps you know an SLO and SLA and I guess that's where my ass come from. But if everybody's in agreement that this isn't the right strategy, then I'll leave it alone and let the body do it and continue on with my life. Well.

G

I also learned recently- and there is a road show from that- sig contributes that was talking about growing your community size. Maybe this is a sign. We need more people's.

H

D

Some copies issues: the problem is we're not dealing with I, don't know I'm, just like I'm doing my my usual dev stats thing, and the number of open issues on website is also larger than the number of open issues on community. So just comparatively communities, not really a crazy repo, all right, you're due to math activity level versus open stuff. This seems pretty. Okay, okay,.

A

We will continue, it saw.

D

That has his hand up I'm.

A

Sorry I was typing: oh no,.

H

No Aaron thanks thanks, yeah. Sorry, sorry about that, I think it's some Bluetooth connected with my headsets and and some strange things, some music. Yes, so sorry about that, if you reach to a transition with the issue thing, that's great I don't want to take a lot of time, but should I add something. I was saying where we can.

H

J

H

I really missed miss the whole thing, but so what I would real, quick I was saying Adam that it takes typically 180 days right, like as you're, counting 90, plus 30, plus 13, and one of the thing Eric said was with these new labels. If we have you know three hours, I didn't fight this issue as a duplicate or like unresolved kind of you know. This is and then this the bots can actually read this labels and close the issue quickly instead of waiting 480 days. Sort of you know, thank you see.

D

You can like short-circuit that if you as a human apply, the lifecycle staling, which you can do and then that subtracts 90 days out and then the bots will go straight from 30 days from staying around 30 days from rotting, the closest so only 60.

H

More days, sort of thing like a couple months, right yeah, so what's this I mean this one was like I said when Eric had some comments that week sort of pours it right away like within that you know, sort of within like 30 days, time frame versus 60 days, and so I just wanted to mention because they're talking about closely issues sooner than later, writing there has to be close. You know yeah.

D

No I totally there's no reason. We can't have additional issue queries to say if this has been triaged as blah and still nobody has looked at it within blah days that it can be closed. For short, yes, exactly yeah, nothing, so that's. That was the only no one mention it.

A

All right looks at the next topic: Aaron, the on GTM results from yesterday's meeting with testing. Okay.

D

I'll share my screen, so we can see who I'm talking about I guess Kristoff is in here, so the the TLDR is, they think late or mostly in violent agreement over the principle of least surprise. So Harris laid out here like right now, here's what happened and slash up here, I'll blow this off. This helps with readability. Lg TM approves like applies the LG TM label and says I approve everything under Kruger and approve of you know, ads the approve label and the github pull request review.

D

Like click the button does nothing and what we want is principle of least astonishment LG TM applies LG TM. The proof applies approved and then he's asking for the polar cross review to do both of the things so have a pull request, review act like /l GTM does today and so we're in violent agreement over the principle of least surprise here.

D

You know this PR is ready to go.

D

We're basically ready to merge this, and we want to canary the changes to have an explosive /o, z, TM and slash your group required in the community, repo and roll it out to the rest of the repos, as we do that give people a heads up that we're going to start looking and modifying the functionality for what a full request review does, because, right now, a lot of people are used to clicking that and giving the little green checkmark and assuming that it does nothing and we end worse.

D

We're gonna have to start do something: okay, heads up that that's coming down the line canary that someplace and all that make sense.

C

About this number one I wanted to let you know that when this particular discussion was happening yesterday, I know that some people who are not part of testing wanted to join the discussion and were unable to get the link to do so. So you may be arguing with those people in the future. Okay,.

D

Well, for what it's worth like, I, linked all of the notes from that discussion and they're viewable by contracts, yeah, kissing carrots.

C

The second thing is that if we change the peer-review process to give LDP Whoville, we will need to update both sides.

C

Sorry say that again, we'll need to update dead stats.

D

C

D

Would we need to update those stats because.

C

Deb senses a number of reports for things like pr's waiting for LG TM right, and they will not pick up on the fact that it's gotten an approval via github review. So we'll just need to remember that yeah.

D

So that's what I'm saying that's a larger change that we want to kick off a discussion about that our opinion right now is. We think that, should you know I know the LTTE M in the improved label, which is how doe stats picks up things I think by the application of those labels I'll have to check but like so that feels like a bigger change, but the last controversial change is we got agreement from the community? Lg TM only means outreach, improve, only means approve and we're in violent agreement to do with that.

A

Questions concerns comments.

K

It was funny that we went for at least is done a friend, then it says LG TM should approve the PR it's just when we documented. Can we be really clear like yes, what happens? The old GTM label is immediately added. The files that you're an owner for those are now approved. Yeah.

D

Eric's terminology is not I would use. You noticed. I was mentally, translating that when I read it out loud and I'll make sure that that's what's documented in the place with the things. If, if.

B

You can also put examples in there as well like yes,.

A

Hopefully, document Alice disagrees.

B

With it, so she would type this. You know what I'm saying so it's more oh.

A

Yeah 100%, okay,.

K

Yeah, that sounds good Aaron, so this is going to be org wide. Then right, there's no configurability. There.

D

Is configurability? We would prefer that it be more quiet ad, so.

K

We thought it's going to behave like this and then, if a repo strongly wants a different workflow that.

D

Is our that is our desired state? The way we're going to transition to that desired state is to start with the desired state and community, and then, if we're happy with it, there maybe turn it on for the whole work or maybe roll it out to a couple more repos. So we want everything to be configurable for sure I'm.

A

Sorry George go ahead. Oh yeah.

B

I was just gonna, say: okay, so now you're confusing me, because I thought the whole point of doing this was to make everyone be consistent, so that okay.

D

So for the kubernetes project, we would prefer to end up in a desired state of the entire or and follows the exact same process: okay, proud sake such that it can be used by different projects beyond just kubernetes mean lugging, those configurable, ops, okay,.

B

Perfect, yes, say it that way, and then you'll be good. Okay and.

F

Just to jump on here, I think the configurability can be used for the way it's rolled out to the kubernetes community, because, instead of just taking it out to everybody all at once and saying here, it is you can approach, you know when rogue shows and things like that approach. Different teams, work with them, help them transition, so that principle of least astonishment people know about it. They've been brought up, they can see how other people are doing it and then they're brought on board the same.

F

We had on board a large organization right when you change technical stuff. The way you want board people I mean you've, got to tell everybody all at once and that's easy to do in a nobody where you can get them all in a say, meeting and talk to him or you can send emails, but in this globally distributed community it can be a little hard, and so we have.

D

F

To help on board people in the same way and.

D

That's what I was talking about with rolling this out in the canary fashion, for.

H

What it's worth like, we've.

D

Had a discussion with the community at large on the community step, you know enlist and came to the consensus that, yes, let's move forward with this back at the end of February, so like I, don't want us to take three to four months to roll out changes of this nature. Going forward. I appreciate the need to bring people in, and we have this configure ability to. Let us pull stuff out, but I hope that the next change that we roll out we can roll out a little more quickly than three months.

A

All right and Aaron, what's the best place for folks to give you feedback? This are the issue in the other nevermind I see it. That's.

D

A full request that clone request links to another nation about cloud lgt into not also me to prove I, can.

A

And then, when is this hitting the community repo I.

D

Will defer to Kristoff for that I'm sure he'll enhance.

A

And then I guess based off of our Charter.

A

We have certain communication processes that we need to follow for changes so I'll also catch up with Kristoff to make sure that that's happening all right and then next is me and then George George I'm only going to take less than two minutes, so you're you're up right after me for for the forum I put in two issues we kind of talked about some of them already, but it would I would appreciate comment or if anybody wants to take a stab at this one is the documentation for sunsetting sinks or working groups or dissolving them into some other fashion, like the birds of a feather, etc.

A

I ping scurrying on this issue, because I think sterian might want to do the. Why I pinged contributor experience on the how, because I'm thinking, that's like more of the logistics again like taking away someone's oome rights, etc.

A

So I thought maybe that could be some kind of combo effort and then moderation guidelines for our mailing list. Should we have just a moderation, folder I'm, not folder, I'm, sorry. Should we have a moderation file that includes slack and mailing lists, or should we keep those separate and if and again, if anybody wants to take a stab at that feel free questions concerns comments with either of those documentation, requests.

A

All right, plus.

B

One we need them yeah and.

A

Then George go right into the forum yeah.

B

Just real quick, so I have a kept basically for a community forum, but it also overlaps with lists and slack and stuff and there's probably a lot of budgeting and whatnot. So I just wanted to remind everyone that that's there some days, I think it's a good idea. Some days I think we have too many communications channels some days, I think we can collapse some of the stuff that we use mailing lists for maybe into this I. Don't know, I think it's worth having the discussion so I just toss that in there the kepis 0:07.

B

A

Questions concerns comments.

A

D

A

Think we have too many.

D

Too many communications channels, yes,.

C

Another one of these arguments about why wasn't this PR discussed on on Channel X and the proposer was like? Well, we discussed it at the meeting and on slack you can't it certainly that's it everywhere. Yeah.

B

And that and then Joe's like hey if you're gonna, add a new thing, you got to make sure you shut down at least one old thing, but at the same time people keep bringing up concerns about decisions being made and slack and whatnot and I figured it's a good way to start the conversation. That's gonna take us two years to think.

B

Can you already tell them I'm already cynical about this, but.

C

B

Took after Aaron I see.

C

I'm not to mistake, because I think he's going to do something that makes it impossible for us to use it and Savannah.

B

C

To hurry, that's what passes for Josh style optimism, yeah,.

B

It's okay, well, I, just started writing everything down and- and you know, there's some limitation with some lists. You know a-z horror mentioned earlier before, and they have that the CNC have tried to use this course and it didn't work for them, but that some other open-source communities are using it. So I figured it's worth start kicking the can down the road.

A

I'm always down for a test, but I feel like. We need a time box that test in, like.

B

A

Do we have like three months on there right now or something yeah.

B

So I just put three months because I figured that sounds right. The read the reason for that is I want it to be hosted and I kind of need money for that, so I don't know like so I, don't know what would be next iment like if we approve the cap for a prototype. Do we just ask the CNC F for money?

B

I, don't I, don't understand so I've been so busy with writing everything down with people's opinions on what they think they need that I haven't really thought about next steps, yet I'm still kind of amia.

I

Gather I can suggest you to start with, so please send an email to to decrease and dam describing this yeah.

I

What what can we do from the financial side? Yeah.

A

And what's the next step on the cap charge, uh we.

B

A

Just need you know there.

B

It's worth doing the thing that I proposed and the cap, which is building a prototype, I.

A

Think you have can I think we have consensus there, but but.

B

If we do, if people can one way or the other, whether you hear or not or plus zero, if you could drop that in the in the pull request, I would really give me an understanding how strongly people feel or not feel whatever.

A

Can you do like a final call for those comments on the mailing list? Sure.

B

Sure seventy-two hours yeah.

A

Sure yeah, let's just get some time boxed, and so we can make that actionable all right and that's it for today's meeting. Anybody have any other things that they would like to bring up with the group while we're all here.

A

Aaron smiling, this is going to be good. How.

D

Are the slides for the Deaf stats discussion coming along Josh.

C

C

They're not so far.

D

Okay friendly reminder that they're due Monday okay.

A

Anybody else, as Elsie stall on the line, all right, no I'm, gonna catch up with her Elsie and I, are submitting the abstracts today for the deep dive and update for cube con. So that will be updated on the schedule. And, oh you know, we didn't. Tim pepper I did not hear from you about you're.

A

Okay, with helping us lead the developer guide piece to the deep dive since Brian can't make it I apologize.

G

I I feel, like I'd, said a verbal, but I ain't know anything more than that. Yes,.

A

G

A

So that's all scheduled then, and.

G

Then also compared to the other day when I recall this last talking about this, we have heard that Gwynn is gonna, be there as well right. Yes,.

A

All is well there and for those that are curious for contributor summit, we are going to be sending an email out either today or tomorrow, with the vote for the unconference session of the current contributor track. Lots of good sessions, I proposed many, so I hope that I'm not talking in the entire time like things like what we just talked about issue, germane and caps, and all of that good stuff will be on the vote.

A

The reason why we're voting ahead of time because people are like well- that's not very unconference II, but we're moving ahead of time so that we don't waste time during the day, because we do have a short window of time for tracks.

A

Questions concerns comments.

A

D

Don't know if you ever got any feedback from the steering committee, but I'll just verbally say like I, didn't they all looked good. Okay,.

A

Yeah no I just you know the last time. I know a lot of folks had issues with some of the discussion topics, so I just want to make sure that people are in the know, are and I'll keep the I'll keep the vote open for at least a week give at least another reminder: I might even keep it open for two weeks TBD on that all right last call, and we are done- see y'all next week, Wednesday.

D