Kubernetes SIG Instrumentation, 20 Feb 2020

Previous Meeting Next Meeting

⏯

youtube image

►

From YouTube: Kubernetes SIG Instrumentation 20200220

Description

Meeting notes: https://docs.google.com/document/d/17emKiwJeqfrCsv0NZ2FtyDbenXGtTNCsDEiLbPa7x7Y/edit#heading=h.qpfxt91hdl2x

A

Okay welcome everybody. This is the second fermentation meeting today is February, 20th and I. Believe there is one primary agenda item that we have today, which is Piatra. Do you want to talk about this.

B

Yeah sure sure I sent an email yesterday to sing instrumentation group I hope you had a chance to take a look and think about this, so in general, like the TLDR is I would like to suppose to to replace myself as a sector by my lecture coverage, known as such as serious as I have no idea. Yeah.

B

So mark is he's on VC, so you could have any questions to me to him. This is a good time to ask.

A

Ok, so there's there's one thing you mentioned in your email: that should there be any other nominations, or should there be objections or anything, and then people should reach out to either you or me and, as a matter of fact, someone has reached out to me and has proposed that we should also consider Hahn as a replacement, and so if there are folks or if Hahn agrees to this wants to be, then we are going to have to go with the process and essentially we need to. We would need to have a vote.

A

We're also get some impatient members essentially vote for for the next chair, roll yeah.

C

I also suggested Hahn as a candidate for the role on the list.

A

Yes, so they were there to people who who expressed interest in that. Obviously Han needs to agree to this, but I feel like I. I definitely also appreciate both of your work. I wouldn't I, can't say who I would want to decide for I think both of you have done fantastic work. I think both of you deserve it.

A

In our current governance model we only have one role to fill, but that said in the same way as people have come to me with other nominations, people have also talked about changing our government governance model, potentially a little bit, which is sick. Api machinery, for example, has recently changed their model and now that they now have two chairs and two tech leaves and I feel like. This could be generally an interesting model for us as well.

A

So I think it's worth discussing, maybe as we're having these personal changes that we maybe want to adapt our governance as well.

A

Yeah yeah Huntley's go ahead, yeah.

D

So basically we do have the the chair, TL distinction in API machinery and I. Think that makes sense in a lot of ways.

D

I'm obviously happy to help in whatever way, I can.

D

Probably, if we're amending the Charter, though we may want to consider terms and term limits, I, don't.

C

Think we need to amend the Charter for this, because I think we just defer to sig governance right now. Instead, governance allows her I, don't think it's unlimited tech leads but like I think at least two.

A

There are two two different things here, so governance specifies the distinction between chair and tech lead in our Charter. We say that there is no distinction in the role. Otherwise it's the same, so we I do think we would have to amend our Charter slightly and I. Think hoddan was suggesting another added to this, which be which would be that there we would be introducing terms on which we revote for people every I, don't know TURN, RIGHT, I, think that's what you're saying.

B

Yes, so isn't this a kind of standard across the whole community that there is some definition of chair and there is some definition of t/l technique.

D

Depending on the state, the distinction is made like in cloud provider, they only have chairs and TLS and chairs share sort of the same function in duty. It's kind of similar to the way the instrumentation is right. Now, in API machinery, we have a distinction between the chair of the TL I.

A

Think maybe our biggest challenge is filling those seats.

A

We have a lot of members we would need. We would need to talk about people stepping out for those right. I I would be interested in a tech lead role, but yeah I. Think. If we do all this, then we should probably do the entire process and probably vote on everyone going into these positions. Assuming that there are more people than spots.

B

To fill so correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that chair position is like an operational one, that someone that is like no driving day-to-day work of the sig like reviewing peers living issues like try, adding issues, organizing meetings ensuring there is agenda, whereas a TL position. Technique position is more like a kind of advisor who was more interested in hey, like it was more focused on having a strategic impact like defining long-term plans, like you know, serving as advisor potentially revealing the most tough.

B

Problems and, like you know, beginning the most of proposals for making a decisions, etc. Yes, yeah.

A

I think I would agree with that.

B

Distinction so personally, I don't mind like having you know. Chairs and tech leads. Yes, yeah.

A

Yeah, huh how exactly did sink API machinery go about? Introducing this.

D

Daniel lava-lamp no longer wanted to do the operational stuff. It was a lot of work.

C

D

The quarterly updates or whatever- and you know, all operational stuff was kind of a burden. So he offloaded that to our our manager Betty, who was down at the chair, so he does all the operational stuff and yeah Noah's, no video. You.

C

Saw the right hand, side.

D

Actually, interestingly, we have. We have like a split structure on the redhead side. David EADS is both chair auntie, oh so mommy.

B

Doesn't make sense to head like feel bovril's, because I assume that once you are chair like you can you can do also, like you know this Ted Shackley draw? Yes, it depends on whether or not you want to do it. Yes, so it's a kind of learn, so my understanding is like a TL. Is a kind of you know light where chair position where you are involved, but not on a daily basis?

B

D

I would imagine the deal is actually more involved on a daily basis, with the actual projects and reviewing PRS and submitting caps, and the chair is unlikely to be submitting any caps. How excite you with in the.

C

D

It's like not within the bounds of being a chair, to submit caps or review caps chairs.

C

Can be technically involved, but they don't have to tiel's must be yes,.

D

That's that's the critical distinction I mean it's kind of in the name, though,.

C

You are your facts: I.

A

Guess my biggest question is: how did sagaie API machinery like go about bootstrapping this.

A

D

Mean in that case.

D

Didn't want to do all the stuff and who wants to make him do all the stuff you know like. If you don't want to do the chair stuff, then I think for sure. We should just find someone else to do the church. Stuff right. Peter doesn't want to do the chair stuff, so we should find someone else to do the chair self.

C

One thing I pointed out in chat that folks might have not had a chance to take a look at is I. Don't actually think that our team yam will manifest is up to date right now, I think there are some people missing I think that before we kick off a formal voting and governance process, we should make sure that, like folks, have been contributing to the team are able to add themselves to that list.

D

So maybe we should consider this like a preliminary thing before a vote. Maybe we should have about the next time and.

B

Then we want to vote like, like you know, voting during a meeting, or do we want to have a kind of secret about think.

B

A

Be in finally right there, yes, I mean my understanding was that so far votes have been on mailing lists. That's how votes have been performed previously. I would be okay with doing a public vote, but I understand that people don't necessarily are comfortable with I know that CN CF has mechanisms to do secret boats. If that's one something we want to take advantage of yeah I.

C

Think if anybody wants to do a private vote, we should do a private vote. I think they use civvies or something like that so and that should be fine.

D

Yeah, but should we vote on the term thing I mean that's like separate I.

A

Think I think that's probably separate I'm, not sure how many Chinese we should be doing at once. I feel like I myself. I would like to do the distinction between chair and tech lead and the question is now how and if people agree with us or maybe we need to do a vote on that. Even I don't know. But if people agree with that, then then we need to figure out who fills those roles right.

D

Because, like technically you are chair exactly and technically theater is chair, ad tech leave, and so, if you don't have enough candidates, then basically you're just voting for the same person for the first roles. That's just the de facto outcome right.

A

D

I guess that that's.

A

True, so what are you proposing.

D

If we want to make that distinction, yes,.

C

To capture some of this in the minutes, I put in two separate suggestions. So one- and this is me suggesting it- we change our government structure from having two chairs to having up to two chairs up to two tech leads and then, as a separate suggestion from Han term-limit, four chairs and techniques. There's.

D

A distinction between terms and term limits.

C

Okay, can you tell me what that is so I can reflect that better.

D

So terms is terms, means that periodically you would have to be reelected term. Limits means that there is a limit to the number of times that you could be reelected. Okay, I think a mandatory election is critical, I.

A

Think I think it's mandatory for us to have terms I, think term limits are discussable.

A

No, we haven't, but I am saying I believe we should have terms okay,.

B

Define is like that's the distinction between those for us. Yes,.

D

B

I mean it's like a manager.

D

And the other one is like a TL I think that's.

A

C

If this is if this is not.

A

Clear enough in the governance talk that we link to then I'm open to defining it more precisely, but Matt is saying it is documented. There yeah.

B

Which one is like, what do you mean? One is like manager. One is like that. Yeah one.

D

Does like more the operational things regarding the seg like a personal is scooti.

B

A lot of manager, the Challenger I know, but like is it's a manager or like TL, the.

C

B

C

B

Is the manager Choi's the manager? Yes,.

D

B

So, okay, so at least like my experience like it's slightly different because usually the the TL is like responsible for loans. Like you know day-to-day operations like the viewing staff tracking issues, and you know ensuring that the work is moving, whereas manager is more responsible for, like you know, defining long-term strategy may be reviewing caps and I.

A

Think there's only one one difference here, which is reviewing caps, is more of a technical.

B

But anyway, like defining strategy is more on their managers weight. In my opinion, whereas, like you know, day to day, operation is a Tier one and I. Think strategy is the thing that needs to, because what you're saying so honey you're saying that like when comparing to Google, we are saying that chair is a manager at Google. It's.

D

Not completely analogous it's it's more completely analogous, so there are things that you're thinking about that managers do at Google, which would not necessarily fall under our chairs responsibilities.

D

Like a chair is almost more of like an administrative role.

A

Yeah I think I would agree with that. I think I. Think a chair within kubernetes is primarily about running the like the day-to-day process, things and making sure that the meetings happen and things like that.

B

Tpm role, kind of like a TPM role: yeah, okay,.

D

B

See make sense, then yeah.

D

D

Yeah I mean for obvious reasons: not everybody likes to do it and that's why I love a limp step down from it and that's why that it is now doing a free API machinery.

B

Okay, so, like probably, it will be if this is just an operational role, so my understanding was different is like, in addition to life in a running operations. It also means like ensuring that the work is moving on on daily vices, like you know, reviewing peers, maybe you know doing the stuff and so on.

B

B

Okay, what it makes sense to me it makes sense to me now so it water I, think it's worth to capture this discussion before making a version.

B

A

So I guess I'm still asking myself like what we do moving forward now: okay,.

D

So there's two items: let's: let's get the sig membership things up to date, so please submit a a PR and add yourself to the team's, not yellow, if you're not already on there. I will link it in the chat here.

E

So we should send them also a notification email, so everyone's rich, that is not on this meeting later. Yes, yes, I, do I think that's that's correct.

F

There are a bunch of people on there aren't active anymore, I guess, but that's up to them removing themselves. I, guess right.

A

Or something I believe the rule is, after three months of inactivity, we are free to prune members.

A

D

They haven't been.

B

In a meeting in three months, and we can delete them, okay, I.

D

B

Should do this like forward-looking, so announce that I mean that's part of our governance model? So, yes,.

A

B

But it's it's, it's not a good experience to say like not. We are introducing a new rule now and like we are applying these freeman's back.

A

Our governance model was decided many many months ago.

B

A

Okay sounds good. The the changes obviously can be applied retrospectively.

A

That I agree with.

A

A

Then then we need to decide how to fill those positions right.

B

The proposed is probably like to have this kind of secret voting rather than the the the open one during this, and then we can do this offline. However, I think like the next step after, like you, know revisiting the list of the members, we should come up with a reasonable responsibility. Split okay, like well-defined.

C

Yep, do we also want to do four, because I think folks have been reaching out randomly about various candidates for the positions? Do we want to do nominations on the mailing list.

C

And then people have to formally accept so they don't. You know, get stuck in a position that they don't want. I think that also makes sense.

B

Yes and probably, we need to have a kind of mekinese to verify those nominations, somehow whether it's like a reasonable nomination, I.

A

Mean that's, that's already taken care of by voting no okay like, but our governance also states that, and he it does take supermajority, but with supermajority vote we can remove chairs, even so like.

A

All of this is actually covered by.

B

Okay, okay III was just thinking about something like if you want to become kubernetes maintainer, you need to later some rules. You.

D

Need to contribute with this, and this.

B

And this yes I, think.

D

I think people will take that into account. Yeah I mean.

B

People eligible.

A

For for vote, or for and I have to be part of this group, anyways right so yeah I, wouldn't over complicate that I think but I don't think we need to over complicate because the people who are voting I'm. Looking for someone in this group anyway, still.

D

Yeah David just suggested we make love 11. You tear.

D

If he wants to you.

C

Should nominate him on the mailing list.

D

A

Do I do think we should probably keep the changes to the governance, in particular the terms we should probably do you think we should do that.

A

And essentially, we can then use the at that point. Current chairs and as the bootstrapping committee for that and yeah okay I think I know have a good good understanding of what we're gonna do going forward.

A

Does everybody else feel equally comfortable.

A

Okay, I will figure out how to do the voting with the CN CF. We've used this mechanism a couple of times before so like.

B

Google Forms can be reasonable way. I.

A

Think CF has like.

B

A

B

This works. This is good like.

B

A

Do a quick investigation and see.

A

Okay, yeah and then we'll do nominations on the mailing list and yeah. That's probably the first thing we need to do. We need to do nominations, people need to accept nominations and then we'll pick off the boat. Okay, okay, thanks everyone. This is the only topic I think we have for today. So in that case, I'll give everyone three minutes of their time back and sorry cut crease code freeze, it is coming out that is.

A

D

A

Yeah, thanks for thanks for reminding everyone. Okay, in that case, have a wonderful local time and see you next time. Bye, bye,.

B

Thank you very much. It was a great discussion. Bye.